Perfecting window installation details
Window installation may not instantly grab your attention, but for anyone involved in building or renovating, it's a critical aspect that cannot be neglected. Think about why we have windows: they connect our living spaces with the outside world, offering natural light, beautiful views, and essential ventilation. However, beyond these obvious reasons, there is a layer of complexity and science in window installation that is necessary to explore further.
When it comes to window installation, the type of window is fundamentally essential. Each type has its nuances. It’s these differences that require us to break down and approach each installation uniquely. Matt aptly noted during our latest podcast that while there are some industry standards, every project has nuance and a unique set of challenges.
Hamish brought attention to a common scenario—a brick veneer building where consideration of placement within the thermal envelope becomes crucial. Placing the window correctly ensures that it's not just about aesthetic perfection but also about maximising energy efficiency. The common misconception is that setting windows is straightforward, but insulation, control layers for air, moisture, and thermal performance all work in tandem to produce a high performing house.
The trio of control—air, thermal, and moisture—isn't just jargon. It's the backbone of ensuring a building's longevity and performance. Brad McEwan from Sanford Build Co explained how each window needs to integrate seamlessly into these control layers. The type of material you choose influences everything from airtightness to thermal bridging. For example, living near water or on a hill's peak demands careful choice of materials like timber, which isn't always the best option.
Window install planning isn’t confined to the builder’s domain; it starts right at the architectural design stage. But here's where it gets interesting: contrary to the rigid perception, both architects and builders thrive on flexibility and problem-solving on-site. We reflected the importance of designing while leaving some details for on-site decisions, which is a balance that often requires collaboration and continuous communication between the designer and builder.
Throughout our discussions, the importance of understanding the building envelope kept resurfacing. This isn't merely about cutting holes in walls but fabricating those openings with precision to manage the three key control layers efficiently. Whether using a slope sill, back dam, or foam insulation, each technique aims to counter the potential pitfalls of water ingress and thermal loss.
One of the most noticeable shifts in building perceptions today is the appreciation of passive solar principles and biophilic design - bringing the indoors and outdoors into a harmonious blend. Whether for mental well-being or energy efficiency, the way we construct our window installations influences future sustainability. As we highlighted, this isn't just about meeting the criteria today but guaranteeing the performance longevity of a building.
At the end of our conversation, we discussed practical points like managing insulation, deflection, and ensuring enough room for movement without compromising on seals. Hamish raised the poignant need to sometimes reconsider what adds value to an installation versus what might simply be overcomplicating things. Sometimes, simplicity wins out if it ensures efficiency and functionality.
If you’re navigating window installations—whether you're a seasoned builder or an enthusiastic DIYer, it’s about more than just inserting glass into a gap. It's about strategising each move, considering the materials, and above all, applying a thoughtful blend of science and practicality to the process.
LINKS:
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Matt: today's podcast episode, we are going to be talking about window installation
[00:00:04] details. it's something that we probably will take a lot of pride in.
[00:00:08] Mm.
[00:00:08] and that probably one of the
[00:00:10] Hamish: most important parts of the building.
[00:00:11] Matt: and I guess it's so dependent on the type of window
[00:00:14] that you work with. and the finish you want, and I reckon to go through this episode, it's almost like we need to break it down into timber install an LUC Cloud install and A-U-P-V-C install because it's so
[00:00:25] different. I,
[00:00:25] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:00:25] But I also feel that there are
[00:00:27] some similarities across the board.
[00:00:30] I mean, the thing that immediately comes to my mind is where that glazing unit sits within the thermal envelope. Yeah, I think a lot of the, like if you think about a.
[00:00:39] Brick veer building normal buil home. You've got your frame and then you've got your bricks. And your bricks obviously sit 40 mil off the frame, 40, 60 mil off the frame.
[00:00:49] And what you're doing in a lot of situations is pushing the window out because you've got the big timber reveals Yeah. Into that void to, so you don't have a dirty big gap around [00:01:00] the, you know, where the bricks are. 'cause you're obviously not most of the time, not turning your bricks in and you've just got 110 mil brick.
[00:01:08] So you think about that glass, that glass is sitting in air.
[00:01:12] Matt: And the other, so this also mention that this
[00:01:15] is we're probably gonna just talk about new builds today. I think that's maybe a whole nother retrofit window installation
[00:01:20] topic.
[00:01:21] but the basic part of a window is we're cutting a hole in our envelope. Not all windows are windows as
[00:01:28] well, so there's no point buying a window if
[00:01:31] it
[00:01:31] leaks air. Um, I
[00:01:32] Hamish: mean, I I would argue that all windows are windows if there're a window.
[00:01:36] Matt: Yeah. They're not
[00:01:36] all equal though.
[00:01:37] Like
[00:01:38] Brad: they're not equal. But I think when you're talking about window installations and, and what you're actually asking a window to do, I think that's important to consider before you're even worried about,
[00:01:51] you know, is it PVC Ali Clad?
[00:01:54] Yeah. Agree. Timber,
[00:01:56] you know. 'cause when you look at a house and you talk about your control [00:02:00] layers and with a window, we're really talking about three different control layers that we're asking this window to be a part of. It's part of your air control layer, it's part of your thermal control and it's part of your
[00:02:11] Matt: moisture.
[00:02:12] Brad: Yeah. Your external moisture control layer.
[00:02:15] And
[00:02:15] it's, you know, looking at it in a way that all three of those things have continuity at that window.
[00:02:22] Matt: Could you also,
[00:02:23] Brad: it
[00:02:23] Matt: it's also dependent on the
[00:02:25] location. For example, if you're gonna be right near near.
[00:02:28] the water or on a top of a hill that you got huge, crazy, no protection, like is timber windows the best
[00:02:33] option for that?
[00:02:34] For that?
[00:02:35] Do you add that in there?
[00:02:36] Like the choice of
[00:02:37] material
[00:02:37] you're constructing is also I think
[00:02:39] Hamish: the simplicity of like explanation window install, I think
[00:02:42] let's just be ambiguous of what that window matter.
[00:02:44] Brad: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A window's a window. Like obviously there's different
[00:02:47] reasons why you would choose different. Types of windows. Yeah. there's
[00:02:51] aesthetics, there's
[00:02:52] Hamish: bow requirements, there's
[00:02:53] Yeah.
[00:02:54] Matt: Budget. Yeah.
[00:02:55] So we have a, win. we have a hole in our
[00:02:57] wall.
[00:02:58] what
[00:02:58] is the first thing you [00:03:00] do?
[00:03:00] Hamish: Well, I mean, let's also
[00:03:01] just
[00:03:01] hang on for a second. Let's think about why we're putting a hole in the wall.
[00:03:05] But what, why don't we just build a box with no windows?
[00:03:08] Matt: It perform very well.
[00:03:09] Hamish: It would perform well. But why are you thinking about like why we have windows in, and then why are we then going actively cutting a hole? In the windows?
[00:03:18] Matt: So
[00:03:18] there's one is to bring the inside to outside, which is biophilic design. That's the first. with Yeah.
[00:03:25] So
[00:03:25] perfect.
[00:03:26] The The second, I was gonna say views and see what's out there.
[00:03:30] Again, same thing, natural light just to bring some natural light into the building to illuminate the home. I would say it's another one. It's passive solar
[00:03:39] principles,
[00:03:39] Hamish: And some of it could be, uh, the health of the omen from a mental health point of view.
[00:03:45] There might be a view out to the south. and,
[00:03:47] Matt: Ventilation is another one.
[00:03:48] Yeah.
[00:03:49] Hamish: Yeah. Ventilation
[00:03:50] Matt: Yeah, topical, but you have the Opening windows. Connecting with nature again. Yeah.
[00:03:54] Hamish: so so we all agree
[00:03:57] we're not just gonna build a black
[00:03:58] box or a box that's gonna be [00:04:00] dark inside we're gonna put natural light on. We want to put holes in that. in that wall frame. But then it's when we're putting holes in that wall frame. How are we installing it correctly? And then how are we managing all those three control layers that Brad was talking
[00:04:13] about?
[00:04:14] Matt: as a builder, carpenter, you rock up on site,
[00:04:17] Holland in wall.
[00:04:19] Let's assume that it's, it's
[00:04:21] wrapped correctly and you just got this box. Now
[00:04:24] what?
[00:04:25] Brad: But I'm thinking about the window install
[00:04:27] as I'm marking out the wall frames. I think you're thinking the window window
[00:04:31] install at design stage. Probably, yeah.
[00:04:34] Yeah, and
[00:04:34] I think
[00:04:34] Matt: there's this really great balance of, like you think
[00:04:36] about it
[00:04:37] at design stage.
[00:04:39] Be don't also want
[00:04:40] overcomplicate a design stage, like as an
[00:04:42] architect, like sometimes when we get, like when the architect's trying to draw the details, how the air tightness layer is
[00:04:48] gonna connect to the internal, you don't need to do that.
[00:04:50] We'll work that out on site. Like you can't document that. That is almost
[00:04:53] impossible sometimes.
[00:04:54] I
[00:04:54] Hamish: would
[00:04:54] say that there needs to be some
[00:04:55] Matt: there.
[00:04:56] Hamish: there.
[00:04:56] needs
[00:04:56] Matt: be just a basic sort of drawings of where it's gonna
[00:04:59] sit, how it's gonna [00:05:00] sit. Is it gonna be an easy reveal? Is it arch? Just the basic details, how we
[00:05:04] constructed
[00:05:04] on site. We will make it work. We will get it. We will get it insulated. We will get it sitting the right layer.
[00:05:10] Just communicate what you want and we'll make
[00:05:12] that work. I think, I think there's also the unfair
[00:05:14] expectation on an architect to try and work out where this line's gonna work. With this flashing
[00:05:19] in, we, if you give us the
[00:05:20] basic details,
[00:05:21] Hamish: so there's just one little thing
[00:05:23] to
[00:05:23] unpack there.
[00:05:24] If are going for a certified building, and you gotta go to the minutia of details,
[00:05:29] Matt: But can you work backwards? Sometimes I've done that in the past where it's like, let us, it's a very tricky junction there. Let us install it. We'll document it and now draw
[00:05:36] Hamish: it. It
[00:05:36] needs to be proven. You need to manage all the thermal bridges during the So what I'm saying, so, so yeah, I, I agree with you by the way. it needs to be designed in, Yeah. but if you are like, I don't think, if it's not the certified
[00:05:48] building. like, I don't think you need to try and problem solve everything at design stage, but you need to be thinking about it.
[00:05:57] Matt: And That's the
[00:05:57] key.
[00:05:58] Hamish: thinking about it at design stage from a, from [00:06:00] a builder and a and a craftsman point of view and the designer, but leave some things up to when you get
[00:06:05] to site.
[00:06:06] 'cause you might make some change.
[00:06:07] Brad: Yeah. But the things that need to be specified is,
[00:06:10] you know, it needs to connect those three layers. Yes. And then how you. Connect those three layers, what you use for those three layers,
[00:06:21] Matt: is up to us. Just, Yeah,
[00:06:22] Brad: it might be a little bit,
[00:06:23] and
[00:06:23] Matt: that's what I mean, like you don't need to be like,
[00:06:24] you really need this extra steel connecting to the store tape right here.
[00:06:28] Like just tell us. Make it airtight. Make it watertight
[00:06:32] and thermally perform. Yeah. And you might have to do some drawings and
[00:06:35] then
[00:06:35] Brad: maybe what parameters
[00:06:36] you've
[00:06:36] got
[00:06:36] around Yes. internal
[00:06:37] and external
[00:06:38] Matt: Yeah. Architectural details sort of thing Window. Window. So.
[00:06:42] basic for me. you Great point. You pull up about at the frame or mark, out stage. What are You thinking about at that stage.
[00:06:48] Brad: Well, like what
[00:06:49] provisions do you
[00:06:49] need to have in that rough opening to fit all of these things.
[00:06:56] Hamish: So if you've got a meter wide window, Brad, are you making [00:07:00] that? Opening
[00:07:01] Brad: a meter?
[00:07:02] wide? No, How? Well, obviously you need to have some sort of a gap to be able to fit the window.
[00:07:08] Ly easily and not be tight. And have some room for deflection and and yeah. able to
[00:07:13] Matt: Code.
[00:07:14] Brad: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Be able to plumb it up and straighten it and whatever. In the, in the rough opening, um, we're allowing a little bit extra space on the bottom 'cause of how we detail the sill of the rough opening. Yeah.
[00:07:29] Hamish: the
[00:07:29] Matt: other hardest part is when, like you're setting out and you've got like that nice neat
[00:07:33] plaster joint
[00:07:34] just slipping into the side of the window, but it's up against an internal wall and they, then you're really having to, and then, but then you also, your ceiling
[00:07:41] wanting to hit
[00:07:42] that
[00:07:42] nice plane on the angle to the top of the window.
[00:07:44] Like they, you've got two junctions where you can't
[00:07:46] move,
[00:07:46] Hamish: move the fucking window away from the
[00:07:49] Matt: Bit architecturally, We've gotta promote architects being creative 'cause we get bored.
[00:07:52] We wanna be
[00:07:53] challenged.
[00:07:53] Yeah.
[00:07:53] Hamish: No, no, I'm, I'm,
[00:07:54] I'm,
[00:07:55] I'm hearing you. but if, if, if all of a sudden there's, there's no wrong or reason for window to be jam into a corner, I'm [00:08:00] like, move that out.
[00:08:01] Brad: 'cause that right there is
[00:08:02] just, yeah. So if you, if you're talking about like how you get an ideal window install? Yeah. Don't put other shit in away. that makes it harder than it needs to be slope
[00:08:11] Hamish: still or no
[00:08:12] slope still.
[00:08:13] no
[00:08:13] Brad: slope still.
[00:08:14] Hamish: I love this.
[00:08:14] Matt: Well,
[00:08:15] Brad: Well, I don't slope the seal. I use a silver pan. Yeah.
[00:08:19] Alright. So I'm
[00:08:19] Matt: a massive, advocate. I only on the last one on my
[00:08:22] house,
[00:08:22] we, we, for the
[00:08:23] first time sloped the seal at five degrees. We had a
[00:08:26] leak.
[00:08:26] And when you shot that amount of water and look
[00:08:29] that it's a amount of water that was so unrealistic would never happen in real life, but you
[00:08:33] sort of
[00:08:33] get past
[00:08:33] the tape, but what you saw it did couldn't get up that ramp.
[00:08:36] So it would then. Fall back down. And that to me is like, you need
[00:08:40] sewan or You need something that is gonna push that water
[00:08:42] away.
[00:08:43] Brad: Yeah. You have
[00:08:43] to
[00:08:43] create a pathway.
[00:08:45] Matt: Yeah.
[00:08:46] Brad: A very evident pathway for water to go.
[00:08:50] Hamish: Totally.
[00:08:50] can I, can I, can I comment on this? Yeah. And I I love all of this, right? And you know what, Rory and I have talked about this a lot.
[00:08:57] Like I look at our window installs with the back [00:09:00] dam and the excess seal, and it's tap up the silences taped to the top corner, and then we.
[00:09:05] We take the windows to the bottom and around, I'm just like, water is
[00:09:08] never fucking
[00:09:09] getting
[00:09:09] Matt: in. there? in. You'd be so surprised. Do you, Have you actually pressured testing with water? Like
[00:09:13] Brad: when do you, when is someone,
[00:09:16] Matt: do you? Yeah, but, but, but, but it's not,
[00:09:17] Brad: that's gonna identify a leak that you can repair, right? Yeah. But say you get a really small
[00:09:24] leak that you can't, that you can't see.
[00:09:27] Yeah. And makes its way into the cavity, your air tight. So you don't have that air movement, that air to dry things. things out. It gets
[00:09:37] tracked
[00:09:38] Matt: and
[00:09:39] Brad: you know,
[00:09:39] Matt: so when you do a blow or test, why do you go around looking for leaks if you're
[00:09:43] already at 0.6?
[00:09:46] Brad: well, ego's probably a part of it, but you also want to know if you've got any
[00:09:51] Matt: bigger,
[00:09:51] Brad: yeah.
[00:09:52] Matt: You said it before another podcast.
[00:09:54] Brad: Have You got
[00:09:55] Matt: you said it before another podcast. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:56] So
[00:09:56] it's the same principle.
[00:09:57] And if
[00:09:58] you just get a water and throw over the windows, [00:10:00] you're testing, we go back.
[00:10:00] to,
[00:10:01] Hamish: We test, Yeah, no, I know. test, we tested it. Right. But I guess, I guess for me it's like, okay.
[00:10:06] And I'm not saying don't do it. 'cause I, I, I think it is
[00:10:09] a, just a bulletproof way of, of, you know, making sure that, um, you know, you never get more water egress into building.
[00:10:16] And we are potentially digressing a little bit here, but at what point do you stop? I had a message from, um, Sean Tasie, builder Bug the other day, you know, when I was showing some details around the window and he goes, what are you doing for your bug mes above your windows? I'm like, why not Yeah. doing anything.
[00:10:35] I'm like, There, There, there, has to be a point where you draw a
[00:10:39] line with, um, managing things that are gonna get in and outta your building. And yet we did a VE mesh on the bottom. 'cause that's easy, right? Yeah. Because that's Plus it's like probably the the most common place. Exactly, Yeah. The
[00:10:53] Matt: rats gonna crawl up
[00:10:54] and go around and get up the side of your window. Like it's just not probably gonna happen. So
[00:10:58] Hamish: I mean, I think, I guess the point I'm trying to say [00:11:00] is like, these things are good to think, about. particularly bush fires you've gotta do that kind of stuff. I get it. it. But I think we need to draw a line somewhere. And I'm not saying it's not at Slope Seal. I'm saying that I think it's a good idea. Okay. So I'm being devil's advocate here and ask.
[00:11:13] Matt: I also love the thought though, but that's a, that's a great part of where building's at at the moment is 'cause people are actually
[00:11:18] thinking about it So it is better than having the thought of, what are you doing there? They being like, I don't care. Whack it in. Fucking put a nail in and off. Okay. She'll be right.
[00:11:27] Brad: So say we don't slope the silver and we just slap it in there, there, right. Flat.
[00:11:33] Yep. And even if you've put it in
[00:11:37] level
[00:11:38] Hamish: mm-hmm.
[00:11:39] Brad: It's timber. Like timber. timber's shit. Yep. And it's getting shit up. Yep.
[00:11:43] What's to say? It doesn't do this or cut or bow or bow and inadvertently not just sit flat,
[00:11:50] but track water back inside. Well, What if the house
[00:11:53] Matt: just moves in the foundations? It goes from this way, that way. And that's my argument
[00:11:56] with one and two degree roof. What if
[00:11:58] the house sinks
[00:11:59] and
[00:11:59] that [00:12:00] one degrees is now an
[00:12:01] opposite to
[00:12:01] one?
[00:12:02] Hamish: your, With your, with your five degrees slope, Yeah. are you allowing for house movement back the other way so it then goes level?
[00:12:07] What, What, What happens if it goes over five degrees and it's flooding? Well, then you're in,
[00:12:11] Matt: you've probably got bigger shit.
[00:12:12] Hamish: Look, we we're still, sorry. We're doing the back down. We're doing extra seal. like it's, it's. Pretty protected.
[00:12:19] Uh,
[00:12:19] look, I'm not saying don't do it 'cause I think it's a pretty, you on a second. You
[00:12:22] are
[00:12:22] doing not sloped but a back dam.
[00:12:24] Yeah,
[00:12:24] back there. Yeah,
[00:12:25] Yeah. We're
[00:12:26] Brad: We're doing
[00:12:26] Hamish: back there. Yeah. And then our windows are sitting on packers above the back
[00:12:29] there, So then we can slide in our, um, plaster reveal or whatever on the inside. So yeah, we're doing all of that stuff. The only thing we're not doing
[00:12:38] is putting a. Putting a slip. Celler.
[00:12:41] Matt: so now you've sloped your silt, potentially maybe, or done or done a back dam. Done a back dam. So back dam. Just every, you guys use a bit of p, like a 20 mil. Big. It's like a little raise. 10. 10 mil, 20 mini. It's a mini wall. It's a mini wall. But yeah. So these are, these are [00:13:00] things that we need to think about right when we, when we're creating that opening, right?
[00:13:02] Because we obviously wanna put continuous foam installation around and we want to make sure that we've got enough movement for deflection and we wanna make it sure we've got enough move, like enough gap to put you back down in and to then pack the window up level. Yeah. And enough gap so that whatever insulation you put in there actually does, goes in and does something.
[00:13:22] Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the. That's the other pipe. If you get a mill of insulation, like how do you get that in? Like even if you get that little nozzle, just you gotta get, it doesn't get in. We, we overshoot it now a fair bit just to get it a nice amount. 10 mil are all around the whole thing. But also it's also the framing around it.
[00:13:38] I want go back because there's no point putting four, five studs around that window opening. And sitting intel the wrong spot. If you can do all this work to get your window, because then we've got all these thermal bridges around it. Yeah. And commonly I see this issue on social media, but look at that window I install and I'm like, I'm just saying look double studs next to it.
[00:13:55] But I can clearly see there's no load coming from your roof down. Why do you need five, six stars and [00:14:00] blocks and everything we want? Minimize the framing around that to improve performance around that window. I argue you probably don't need double studs. Unless you got like a trust that's coming on, I a big fuck out there.
[00:14:11] Anyway, that's, that's all we, we actually don't do double studs on our one 40 walls. That's all. That's all what? You don't need a double jam stud. No. Lot of the time I've been fine. And what, what are you doing? Like a single pine stud? No, just one 40 and then off you keep, you run six hundreds again. I'm pretty certain from memory, I'm not on the tool.
[00:14:31] I just about to say a big call from Matt who probably hasn't put a tool word on for about, I'm probably gonna go on site, like double stud, double stud, double stud. Um, but I also said we know rocks up on site's a really important point as well because this is the moment we're like, how are we gonna get air tight or watertight?
[00:14:48] Um, and we've just, we've just got, I'll just talk about my house recently. We've got windows from Logic House come from Poland. The system we're doing that now is compared to our B-Q-P-V-C windows, which I know [00:15:00] even since we've last worked with the UPVC, which only a few months ago, they've got a new system that you can use, which you probably talk about, but it's now working like how do we seal that side envelope?
[00:15:11] Well, we, we pre-prepped everything. Yeah. So we prep, prep, prep. Uh, so the windows come in. The first thing that gets done is they don't go in the hole. They get inside and they go into a little workbench. And then we detail inside and we detail outside with ship. And ideally, if you have the ability to buy the windows deglaze and glaze 'em on site, one of the best things you can do to get your windows in.
[00:15:32] Yep. Yeah. And what makes it a lot easier to move them out? Triple glaz, man. Yeah, it's, yeah. It's so heavy and they're so expensive. The risk of anything getting damaged is insane. Looking around easy, and it's just, it's really. I say it's easy 'cause it's just, you need to think about where that system is going.
[00:15:52] It's taking the time to put that tape on properly and hear it properly. Get your little pigs ears in the corner if you need to so you can fold it [00:16:00] over. It's just thinking about like, how can you always make your life easier once that window's in? Yeah, I think that's like a good point. I've had windows before that have come to site.
[00:16:10] And they had already taped the PVC frame to the reveal, but they'd used the aluminum foil tape, which is so junk, so called taper initially. Yeah. But so we ended up peeling it all off and, and, and reaping it. So you gotta really consider what products you are using and how they all work in unison. With each other.
[00:16:37] I think it's also important to think about the system that's there too. Like I think like, let's go back to Slope Seal thing for a second. In my opinion, that's not part of the pro climber system, but the exo seal, the tape, the back dam isn't though. Yeah, true. Yeah. True Prom tape. Just to give you reference, if you take inside and out, you should be taping inside and outside whether you are.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Uh, both air times or not because it creates a pressure differential between the two. Yeah. Alright. And also from my understanding, if you take in and out, it's equivalent of a two meter wall high back down. That's how much water it will hold before it fails. I've been told. Wow. But what are you taping to if you don't have intelli internally?
[00:17:19] What you take? Just probably just take two. Your studs on the inside opening. Then I'm, I haven't done it. I'm just, I'm just saying if you're gonna say that you, this is what you should be, you probably should. I guess the point I was making is that it's a system, so it's, it's understand the system before you just go gungho and go, oh, well I'm gonna put a window in and I'm gonna put tape around it.
[00:17:39] And then if there is a failure, trying to then figure out where you failed, because there is actually a logical way to actually install these windows that's documented already. Because it's the system. So yeah, there's so many, like, and within these, these are more over or wider, the lens view of how you did sort [00:18:00] that.
[00:18:00] Once you start getting into nitty gritty details, like do you use the clips, do you use the screws? Do you like what clips can fuck right off? In my opinion, sometimes they're okay. They, I, I, I'm, I'm not the biggest fan of it, but they are good. I like them on the top of the windows. Uh, because you like, especially when you got the logic house one's affidavit, you need to secure them at multiple points and you don't, and if you can't get a screw from the top, like how much you gonna do it?
[00:18:26] I actually reckon in that situation, uh, that those little bricks from click in probably work really well. Yeah, I have huge reservations about. Um, I'd love to know why their win capacities and stuff. I, I mean, let, let's not poo here Poo then all I'm saying is something like that system would be really great for a big heavy window.
[00:18:48] Like a, like a, i, I, I personally don't think they work on new PVC. But I think on a, on a rigid window like Timber or Ali Cloud, I think they've got a and well, the other thing, what we did in our most recent job is we actually got the [00:19:00] ALI Cloud profile with the timber. We put two beads of silicon around or polyurethane around the whole stuck on a window pine reveal.
[00:19:08] Biggest suggestion I'd ever give is like, don't rely on the manufacturer, give you the reveals. Just cut 'em on site. Make them yourself. Get your windows bare. We stuck that down, we screwed from the back end. So it was multiple screw the whole way around. Now that new reveal that we've got is now our fixing point.
[00:19:22] So not screwing through this beautiful window. Yeah, especially if it's an oak. Then what we are able to do is you just need the basic story tapes. We take that in our internal layout, just straight over the, the window of our window reveal is now the air tight layout. It also means that our easier builds from Australian.
[00:19:36] Yeah. that that's your, what your, your airtight is on the inside, so, okay. So you are, I, I see what you're saying. So you, you're in intelo and then you are taping here. Yeah, just where the reveal comes out. And then just take face, like what you do now with your big PC, you get their nice clip in.
[00:19:50] Which I wasn't installation fin. I was not a fan of it at start with. Then watching, I'm like, yeah, it does make total sense. You're just taping straight over it. Same mate. There's stuff on our Instagram page, like if you're [00:20:00] not convinced, like it's, it's a game changer. I was a bit concerned about was it gonna push it out too much and stuff, but I'm, I do Do you still put in like another fixing on the side somewhere just to give it a little bit more strength?
[00:20:11] Nah, nah. Boom. Straight in. Fix it, like fit it off, tape it, phone fill it. The thing's not going anywhere. Do what do you do? Do you put fins in or do you like the fins or do you I, I think the fin system's awesome. But we're not all gonna build our houses with bing windows. That's exactly right. Yeah. You know, and, and that's the thing, you know, we're not all gonna use, we're not all gonna use pro climber, even the three of us here.
[00:20:38] All detail, the bottom sill of our rough opening differently. Yes, yes, actually. But yeah, that's actually a really good point. You know, and not one, well, you could argue potentially might not being sloped as well. I, until my house, so just like, just I was the same as you until. My most recent [00:21:00] window install, but, but I think all three of us, I think are doing the right thing there or not the wrong thing there.
[00:21:04] And maybe one's better than we we're now improving on the 1%. Yeah, we're not, we're not, we're, we are looking at small little things to improve, but if you think about window installation and I guess what this whole podcast episode's about like. Where the window is in the wall assembly, how, what the process is, or the system that you are using to install the window.
[00:21:25] Thinking about those three control layers, I think is really important. I think they're consistent across. Every single window sweep you use? Yeah. Yeah. Like how are you managing it thermally? How are you keeping the water out? And then how are you managing it for, for air? So I think the, the thermal one's really interesting.
[00:21:45] I think it's the first, you said pain is like that a glass has to be in the installation lab is so important. Or you will get condensation. Yeah. Like it's, it's not an if it's a when or so. Yeah. Insulate ex externally, you [00:22:00] know? Yeah. There's thermal buck products out there or whatever, if you have to push it back, but it's, it's understanding and maintaining that continuity.
[00:22:07] Yeah. Now, I mean, this is gonna be, this is a good topic for discussion quickly. We all insulate the sides and top of windows, and I use a spray foam, and it has to be closed sale spray foam, because it won't suck in water as much. It's just a better product. Do you insulate the bottom sill of your windows?
[00:22:23] No. So I do. No. Why not? Where where are you insulating? Uh, from the outside. Yeah. But yeah, but like, we've already, we spray foam 360 around. I mean, I, I don't, I don't know how you like, so you are going from the outside where you've got the, where you've got the slope and then you're, then you are spray foaming underneath it?
[00:22:42] Yeah. Yeah, because we're sitting up on window package. So it's waste. It's not sitting hard down. I think it's another important part. Going back a bit, Don, see your window cut down. So my, my, my response to that is get it modeled if you, if you're unsure. Yeah. So we, we've had a model in the past. It is a thermal breach.
[00:22:56] Now, let me also go back to two points here. Where I'm building is in a [00:23:00] city, suburbs, unlike you guys all the time. Yeah. So we are quite convinced, quite protected by a lot of other buildings. So I have the amount of water that's gonna hit those windows and that's still at the bottom. Isn't probably gonna be as much as open to where you guys are building.
[00:23:13] If I was building a Cape Shade here, I'm most likely gonna live, but I'd also, so I'd also argue, I would agree with you saying that it is a thermal bridge, but then I would also challenge you. Does it matter? And that's where you, you need to ask, you need ask someone like, Cameron, can you please model that particular thermal bridge?
[00:23:31] 'cause every house is gonna have a thermal bridge. It's the sum of the thermal bridges that are gonna tip it over. Yeah. So the thing like, and they add up over a period of time and all of a sudden have got this cold spot underneath it. On the flip side, the argument is, well now you're not afford. Gets in it kind of drain down and away.
[00:23:46] Well, I dunno if I could amongst the other, why are you saving yourself? Just give it that extra. Yeah. But then the scope for Instagram too, if, if you, if you have a slope sil and then you properly manage what you do with. [00:24:00] So say you slope your sill and you set a back, uh, a backing rod. Yeah. Far enough in, so when I've set it up, I've got the slope sill with an integrated back dam and flat packing blocks.
[00:24:13] Yeah. I'll then pack the window, another 10 mil up from that. Yeah. So that the bottom reveal to my back dam. I've got 10 mils so I can fit the nozzle in. But I actually want to talk to the manufacturers of, of that, about setting it up differently so that I could put a backing rod in there and then insulate up to a certain point.
[00:24:35] This is what my biggest gripe with spray foam insulation, and the way most people put it in is put the gun in and, and send it. And whatever you've done to try and manage the way that moisture's controlled and you know, directed away is, is now null and void. 'cause you've got no idea where that foam's gone, how much is in there?
[00:24:58] Yeah. It's, it's [00:25:00] not something that's, I. That's managed, you know, has to be a low expansion fund is so key, dude. Like, but you also need someone who's taking the time to fastidiously put it in. Yeah. You know, take, take your time and understand the rate at which you are injecting it into that cavity. It's that nozzle, but it, but it is that, but doing a little bit, letting it expand out, coming back and doing it again and letting that expand out, and then maybe doing it again, but you gotta let it dry in between and then you cut it off.
[00:25:27] Flush. Yeah. Okay. And it's like, you know, we always have these discussions about, you know, oh, have we gone over the top with how we detail the windows? This building's never gonna see this rain event. But you've had it. How many people have, you've got clients that have pressure washed to live in daylights outta the side of a building and Oh, so drives me insane.
[00:25:47] Like a pressure, getting a hose, a pressure hose, and holding a hundred mil off the window. You can get the best window in the world. Yeah. It's probably gonna fail. It's gonna, but you, you can't stop Stupid. You can't, [00:26:00] but if you've set it up in a way, I'm just writing that down, you can't stop stupid if you've set it up in a way that even if someone does something like that, you know, yeah, we are all buying amazing window packages for our builds, but eventually that lifespan of that window package, you know, things are gonna break down.
[00:26:20] and for the little bit of extra effort that we go to, to slope a seal to manage that. Yeah. Are we buying potentially then another 10 years of life? Yeah. Maybe out of that building, because when the window breaks down and water gets in, it's got a pathway to get out. Is it the window that's ever gonna break down?
[00:26:37] Or is it the glass that's gonna break down? I'm, I'm thinking about all these things now and like thinking about even just particularly the, the foam around the windows. I would argue that there's no guarantee that that's perfect.
[00:26:49] That, that it's going to be installed a hundred percent how you want it to be installed. the fact that we're all sitting here like nerding out on how we're installing windows is probably a really good [00:27:00] indication of how the rest of that building is gonna be built. Yeah. Like if, if you are taking the time to soap your seals, to put extra seal down, to put back dams to make sure that you are.
[00:27:11] You know, managing where your fixing points are going so you're not, you know, interrupting the air tightness or the, you know, moisture control layer of the actual window or the functionality of that window that is then gonna expand out for the rest of that building. A hundred percent. ' but I think what we can get at is like between the difference of our windows, like yeah, they. The 99% is the same window in install detail.
[00:27:33] And I think the 1% is there's, it's just the way we've just done things. And it depends on the type of window, depends on where you're building it or installing it. Um, but I think also how we've install windows in the past where you just, you they're rocking up and they're literally going straight to the whole fuse screws walk away, job done.
[00:27:51] It's not how we should be installing them like you need, like this is. It probably one of the most critical junctures of the building that needs to be treated [00:28:00] that way. Probably the most I Yeah, you, you're probably right. Most critical. 'cause we've all done renovations and we've written windows out.
[00:28:07] What's failed, the sill, the corners of the sills rot. Two things to me that, well, there's three, I shouldn't say me. There's three things in building that will most likely fail. One, it's a roof leak. Why people don't use, uh, a proper external membrane on the roof. Baffles me, eliminates it. Yeah. And just on that, you can't just put fucking proco on your walls and say, I'm high performance, I'm high performance house, like that's on the roof as well.
[00:28:32] I, I, I, I would rather, I'd rather it on the roof. I'd rather on the roof than the, it'd rather put a pro climber on the roof than the walls. The second thing is waterproofing. Biggest plan. We have an insurance issue. Yeah. Third is windows. Windows leak. Again, that's three. If you can look at those three issues themselves, you know, so, and I would say to them, one's probably not higher than the other because they're all issues.
[00:28:53] So all to do with water, yeah, it's all management. But you gotta think like what you know, what are you doing as well after you've installed [00:29:00] the window, especially externally and especially with lightweight clotting. So you've taken the time to put the window in, you've taped it nicely, whatever, and then you've gone absolutely fucking berserk with an nail gun and some cladding, and you've blasted holes everywhere.
[00:29:13] You've undo all your good work. Yeah. that's a very good point. I reckon we leave it there on Windows. ' I think so, yeah. Done.