Navigating the winter blues
Winter hits different when you're working outdoors. The sun disappears by 4 pm, the cold seeps into your bones, and suddenly that motivation you had in summer feels like a distant memory. If you've noticed your mood dropping with the temperature, you're not imagining things. We sat down with our good friend and psychologist, Julie to understand why winter affects us so deeply and what we can actually do about it.
Understanding What's Really Happening
Winter blues aren't just in your head - they're biological. Julie explained how reduced sunlight triggers our bodies to produce more melatonin (making us sleepy) and less serotonin (affecting our mood). For those working in construction, spending long hours in limited daylight compounds these effects. It's important to distinguish between normal winter mood dips and Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD), which requires professional attention.
Harnessing the Power of Light
The solution starts with light exposure. Julie uses a 10,000 lux light in her room to simulate sunrise, helping maintain her body's natural rhythm. For builders starting early shifts in darkness, this strategy can be game-changing. Getting natural light exposure as early as possible sets your internal clock and helps regulate melatonin production throughout the day.
Routine Routine Routine
Consistency matters more in winter than any other season. Waking up at the same time every day - yes, even weekends, provides your body with the regularity it needs to manage mood effectively. This might feel restrictive, but the stability it creates becomes your foundation for mental resilience during challenging winter months.
Get Moving
Physical activity becomes crucial when motivation drops. Whether it's a quick walk during lunch break or indoor exercise after work, movement directly impacts mood. Julie made it clear that even when it feels impossible to get moving, the post-exercise mood boost is always worth the initial effort.
Stay Connected
Winter isolation is real, especially after long work days when all you want to do is stay home. Maintaining social connections, whether it's grabbing coffee with mates or sharing a meal, provides essential mental health support. Don't underestimate the power of face-to-face interaction during darker months.
Embrace the Slow Down
Sometimes the best strategy is doing less. Julie highlighted how winter naturally encourages rest, similar to hibernation patterns in nature. Allowing yourself purposeful downtime can be liberating, but there's a difference between restorative rest and unproductive isolation that leads to guilt.
Plan A Holiday
Having something to look forward to sustains morale during endless cold days. Whether it's planning a warm-weather getaway or simply scheduling regular breaks throughout winter, these anticipation points help maintain mental energy when everything feels grey.
Winter challenges are normal, but they don't have to derail your mental health. These strategies work best when implemented consistently, not just when you're already struggling. If you notice symptoms persisting or worsening, professional help can make a significant difference.
Remember, acknowledging winter's impact on your mental state isn't weakness, it's awareness that leads to better self-care.
LINKS:
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Hamish: I have a set of cards in front of me. Now this could be fun, this could go anywhere. So I'm gonna ask both of you a question before we get started. what I need you to do is I'm gonna pick this card and you have to complete the sentence. First thing that comes to your mind. bear in mind, this is potentially a PG program. What people don't understand
[00:00:19] Julie: is that I'm really smart.
[00:00:21] Hamish: Do you know what? That is very true, and I actually didn't know that until I saw your IQ test because I was questioning your intelligence before that. I, right. Matt, this is for you. I am not really. Small.
[00:00:39] As soon as I read that, the first thing that came to mind was your height. I'm sorry. All right. Now do I get a turn two? Of course you do. You wanna do it, Matt? Okay.
[00:00:49] Matt: I want to kind of flip through the cards to find No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's gotta be random. When I'm tired,
[00:00:55] Hamish: all I want to do is sit back in front of the TV [00:01:00] and watch Vikings of Valhalla.
[00:01:01] And today we're joined by Boris, which is Julie's dog. Hey, um, Julie, this is the first time that we are recording in a person and we're at your home. This beautifully renovated home. By the way, mms Home still director must have been, uh, amazing, and we are about to head into winter now. I know personally whenever there's a change of the seasons.
[00:01:29] I, my moods change. Mm. Could you maybe psychologically that for us and tell us the reasons why we find changes in our mood, uh, as the seasons change?
[00:01:43] Julie: is probably good to make a distinction between, um, like winter blues and a thing that we call seasonal affective disorder. Mm-hmm. So winter blues, we definitely notice that where, you know, your, um, energy dips, your motivation's low.
[00:01:57] Sometimes you can get a little bit snappy, those types of [00:02:00] things. Um, and there's a couple of reasons for that. So, in winter we tend to get less, um, time outdoors. Uh, we tend to sort of, kind of wind down if we think about. Back when we were in caves. Yep. You know, we would've actually been spending quite a bit more time inside.
[00:02:17] Hamish: Yeah. Let's just go with the whole Boris thing. 'cause he is, he's enjoying it.
[00:02:21] Julie: He's having a great time. Yeah. And so you feel Yeah. Flat and I'm motivated. Yeah. It's not full blown depression, but you definitely kind of feel yourself sort of winding down.
[00:02:29] It's actually think winter blues is a thing. It's not
[00:02:30] Matt: like, it's just this terminology that's being made up. It's actually. A proper condition. A That's
[00:02:36] Julie: right. Because, because like if we think about sort of seasonally, we go through ebbs and flows of, of how we feel and, and the activities that we take place in at a, a clinical, uh, condition is seasonal effective disorder.
[00:02:48] And we act, we'll definitely see, uh, for some people, if they have this particular kind of makeup, there'll be an increase in their mental health symptoms. So sometimes if somebody's got a, uh. [00:03:00] Um, a background of anxiety or depression, they might be more susceptible to that, but definitely there's a, um, really clear research that shows the further away from the equator where we get lots of sun.
[00:03:11] Um, if we get less sunlight, we have people that are more susceptible to that, um, seasonal effective disorder. So whether we're talking winter blues on one end where we just feel a little bit flatter right through to, um, we start to have some. Clinically significant depressive symptoms.
[00:03:28] Matt: Do you see a full, like, you see a pretty big spike in the amount of people that come into your practice in the winter compared to summer?
[00:03:32] Yeah,
[00:03:33] Julie: most definitely. I often say to people, um, there's two spikes. There's pre-Christmas. Yeah. 'cause that's lots of sort of interpersonal family type, um, conflict where people are wanting to come in and either. Talk about things because they've got, um, upcoming family interactions that are gonna be challenging, uh, and winter because there's absolutely a spike in depressive symptoms through there.
[00:03:54] So if you look at my calendar, they're the two absolute spikes. So it's harder to book people in [00:04:00] over those periods of time.
[00:04:01] Hamish: So you've talked about in the past, uh, and actually touched on this with, uh, Nick for the pushup challenge we had him on He talks about, uh, you know, some of the things about mental fitness and what you can do to improve your mental fitness.
[00:04:15] And, you know, he talks about connections. He talks about physical exercise, he talks about purpose. He talks about being outside. These are all of the things that you've talked about mm-hmm. In the past. And if you think about winter, cold, rainy, it it doesn't stay as light for as long, and we're probably cooped up inside.
[00:04:32] More. Yeah. We're not able to hit some of those, um, points that are helping our men mental fitness, does that contribute to the winter blues as well?
[00:04:45] Julie: Yeah, most definitely. So seasonally when we get less light, um, we also, make more melatonin, which makes us sleepy. And the other thing that we Is that
[00:04:54] Hamish: during when there's less light?
[00:04:56] When there's less light, yeah. Yep.
[00:04:57] Julie: Uh, and the other thing that we find is [00:05:00] that, um, our serotonin can drop. so there's, there's absolutely physiological things that are going on,
[00:05:07] Hamish: and both of those are due to sunlight, natural light. That's right.
[00:05:11] Julie: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so being aware of these things means that you can start to have some different strategies.
[00:05:17] So if you're a runner, for example. And you're not super keen on running in the rain, then you wanna try and prepare for something so you're able to, you know, keep your exercise levels up and not just completely shut down over that period.
[00:05:32] Matt: It's hard 'cause the. You can't pick the weather. Like it's, you could have four or five days of rain in a row.
[00:05:40] Julie: Yeah.
[00:05:41] Matt: And trying to plan if you're, yeah. For example, it's a good, good analogy with a runner. Like you can't pick when it's gonna work for you. Especially, especially if you look at trades, for example. Most trades aren't gonna get up at 4:00 AM to go for a 45 minute run, to be on site by seven. So the time of window that they can actually on a run is quite mm.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Condensed into the afternoon. Yeah. And it's dark and cold by then.
[00:06:03] Hamish: I'm, I'm trying to think about this, like from an evolutionary point of view, because, you know, obviously this is, we're talking about our current, you know, modern life. Yeah. Like, what does that look like from, uh, I guess from a, from a caveman?
[00:06:16] The caveman, you know, they're not sitting there going, oh, well I can't go for my run this morning because, uh, it's dark outside. Would you think that the impacts of modern life are having a bigger effect on it, or do you think that this would've been a thing back then as well?
[00:06:30] Julie: yeah, it's interesting. It would've been a thing back then as well.
[00:06:32] 'cause if you think about, um, ancient tribes, there's two strategies that would happen during winter. So one would be that people would migrate to a different climate. Which we can't do. So I can't pick up my house. And I mean, I'd love to pick up my house and move it to Noosa every winter. That'd be a cracker.
[00:06:49] Hamish: Should we just buy a
[00:06:50] Julie: house in NAA and just let's do that. Yeah. And the other thing that would've happened is that when we think about mammals preparing, like a bear is like [00:07:00] an extreme example, but a bear actually sits out the winter. So they stop themselves up and then they go hibernate. So that's at the extreme end, but.
[00:07:09] In a historical perspective, we would've been in our cave a lot more. We probably would've had stocks and storage if we were able to, or if we were in a tribe work that could relocate, we'd just get out of the weather and. Indigenous Australians have been doing that forever.
[00:07:25] Hamish: And I think the reason why I ask that is 'cause I guess it's for me just trying to understand that it's not just a modern thing, that it's actually a thing that's sort of in our make up anyway.
[00:07:33] And you know, if melatonin and serotonin, um, is proven to drop when there's a lack of sunlight, are there artificial ways for us to, uh, sorry, melatonin increases in serotonin drops? Mm-hmm. Are there ways for us to manage those two? Um. Chemicals within our body.
[00:07:53] Julie: Yeah, most definitely. So one is, um, getting light early.
[00:07:57] So upstairs in my room I [00:08:00] have, um, a 10,000 luxe light that mimics a sunrise for me. So it comes on, um, at the moment it starts getting, it basically mimics sunrise. So my body or my brain thinks that I'm experiencing a sunrise. Uh, it comes on at five at the moment, and by five 30 my. Bedroom is like brilliantly light, and that's a really so
[00:08:25] Matt: different to the way I've, I've just discovered sleep masks.
[00:08:28] Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it blocks out all the light and I've, I've seen a dramatic increase in the depth of my sleep from like, completely blocking out any light. Yeah. Are you tracking your sleep? Yeah, I do actually. A fair bit. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:41] Hamish: It's one thing that I've, you know, one of my other favorite podcasts other than this is one of course is uh, dive of A CEO and he talks about tracking sleep, tracking sleep, and it's something that I'm.
[00:08:50] Matt: I've got about eight months of data now, but I don't wanna look at it until I probably about six months post first child. I actually really wanna see the difference. That's a
[00:08:59] Julie: [00:09:00] great idea because you
[00:09:01] Hamish: know what? I'm just gonna give you some advice, and this is not what we're talking about. The first two or three months of you having a kid, you are gonna think that you are awesome and your kid is awesome and you're gonna be like, oh, it's sleeping and feeding you.
[00:09:13] Watch that shit get turned on its head like that.
[00:09:16] Matt: Yeah, I know. It's, um, I and I, I sleep probably seven hours a night. I, if I don't get seven hours, I really struggle to function and I know that it's something that's probably gonna have to change.
[00:09:26] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:09:26] Matt: Somehow.
[00:09:27] Hamish: Julie, so this light that you've got, um, I wake up naturally at about five 30 and, and I actually think that it's probably because I've trained myself to do it. So get up five 30 and then I go and work out and I'm, I'm even, even on days, like weekends when I know I can sleep in. So like a six 30 or something, which is asleep in for me.
[00:09:44] Um, I'm naturally waking up. I don't feel like I need to have that, um, that light. But could you tell us how that light affects you when you're asleep? Mm. Like what's happening in your body? 'cause you're obviously asleep, you [00:10:00] know the light's on. Yep. Something knows that Lights' on. Body knows that Lights' on.
[00:10:03] Julie: So it basically just mimics a sunrise. So if you think about, going to sleep Yeah. And if you are in a room where you have access to natural life, yeah. As the sun rises, you are gonna wake up. Yeah. Yeah. So even though your eyes are closed, you've still got, your rods and cones in your eyes are still sensing things.
[00:10:22] Okay. And so, you know, if you, if you close your eyes now, like yes, it's dark, but you're going to be vaguely aware Yeah. That you're in a light room as opposed to a dark room. So that, um, it'll simulate sunrise and that basically tells me that it's time to get up. The other thing, do you have it on
[00:10:39] Matt: a weekend?
[00:10:39] Julie: Yeah, I do. Because as painful as it is. But one of the other things that's really helpful is sticking to a regular routine. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it really is. So this idea of sleeping and on the weekend. Like, I don't wanna put shade on sleep again in the weekend and tell people not to do it. Absolutely not.
[00:10:58] But if, if you are definitely [00:11:00] struggling with, um, lower mood or flatter mood, one of the things that you might consider is trying to stick to that. Um, same time of getting up. Um, absolutely trying to get, um, early light, um, so literally going outside and getting a source of light. So I'm doing it by, um. Uh, what's it called?
[00:11:20] Artificial means? Yeah, with with the light. Yeah. Waking up. Um, but that, because what that does is it helps your body produce the correct amount of melatonin. Mm-hmm. So if you're getting no light, it, it just starts to flow in with everything like you were talking about more earlier, mat like sleep. Sleep is key, you know?
[00:11:36] Yeah. It's
[00:11:37] Matt: so important.
[00:11:38] Julie: It's, and there's lots of things that you can do to tweak that and attend to it.
[00:11:41] Hamish: So what you're saying is like, I might, I look forward to a Saturday. Uh, 'cause generally I might sleep until six or six 30, right? Mm. So what, what your and, but I'll wake up at 5, 5 30. What time do you guys go
[00:11:54] Matt: to bed as well? Let's you give context.
[00:11:56] Hamish: So I'm usually like a [00:12:00] late night for me would be, I'd be in bed by 10.
[00:12:02] That's a late night, but usually like nine 30 quarter sleep by 10 30 kind of thing. Yeah. Sleep by 10 30. And I'm pretty good at falling asleep and staying asleep. You know, kids sometimes have an impact on that, but. What you are saying is you are better off being consistent for seven days rather than going, here's my five day routine, and then here's a two day routine.
[00:12:20] Let's binge Yeah.
[00:12:22] Julie: Yeah. If, if you are, so, if you, if you're having no mental health symptoms or signs, you, you don't have to attend to this at all. But if you notice that that's something that you slip into a flat or lower, then that is one of the, and if you, especially if your sleep starts to get disrupted, one of the quickest ways to get.
[00:12:42] Oh, on many ways. But this a really solid, um, way to do it is to, to get up early at the same time so that you are tired at the end of the day, so you then sleep properly. It's such a cycle.
[00:12:54] Hamish: You know, it's funny you say that, like on the weekends, and I dunno if this is because I'm like an active [00:13:00] person during the day and I'm, I'm pretty structured with what I do Monday to Friday.
[00:13:04] I'm always busy. I'm always achieving and doing things on the weekend. If I say sleep till seven. I'll wake up flat, I'll wake up tired. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it'll take me a long time to like kick into the day when I'm, when I've slept, yeah. That little bit longer or I've kind of come outta a routine. Like, is that common?
[00:13:22] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I don't have enough knowledge to explain like. Deep dive physiology about what's going on. But I certainly understand that, um, often when people are starting to, so if you start to stay up later, um, and you start to sleep in, what the sleeping in does is it minimizes the amount of that early light exposure that you need.
[00:13:43] And it's that early light exposure that's part of. Um, the whole entire cycle.
[00:13:48] Hamish: Okay. So what you're saying is there's a difference between early morning light and say midday light.
[00:13:53] Julie: No, it's about the timing. So if you get, if you get, um, light exposure [00:14:00] early enough, that sets up your, um, melatonin production correctly.
[00:14:04] Okay. So if you get, so if you think about like the extremist, let's say somebody, um. Games really late into the evening. Yeah. So there's two. Nothing wrong with gaming cracking thing to do. The challenge becomes when we are getting lots of, um, stimulated, so artificial light late. Mm-hmm. And we're also going later, so we sleep in so we don't get exposed to that early sunrise.
[00:14:29] And then that sets off a whole cascade of, difficulties with Yeah. Um. 'cause melatonin's your sleep, um, hormone.
[00:14:36] Hamish: Okay.
[00:14:36] Matt: Is, is that like the, um, on the iPhone? I know you can turn the, the yellow and blue light because Nicole hates it when I have the yellow light on.
[00:14:43] Julie: Yeah. But
[00:14:44] Matt: it's like so much better for your eyes,
[00:14:46] Julie: the best way to think about that is imagine if there was just a sunrise at, in the middle of the night that is just gonna put you completely out of whack.
[00:14:54] So staring at a screen without the filter on is telling your mammal brain. Why [00:15:00] it's get up time. Like this is light time.
[00:15:02] Matt: It's also the vitamin D that I think that we don't like. I supplement with vitamin D. Yeah. Um, I think that's something that also don't take that as medical advice, in winter, like you're just not outside as much. And I'm in the office a lot of the time and there's days where it's wet, it's raining.
[00:15:18] Like today, I don't wanna go outside and go for a walk in the middle of the day, like it's cold. I, I, I can do with the cold. It's the wetness. It sucks.
[00:15:26] Hamish: You know, one thing I'll say about that, and I know it's hard 'cause the motivation's the harder bit, but tell me any time where you've like, oh fuck, it's raining outside.
[00:15:36] Oh, I put the jacket on, and you put your shoes on and you get the dog and you go outside. Tell me, has it ever been a time where you've got back from that walk and you've gone, oh, I wish I hadn't have gone
[00:15:44] Julie: zero out of 10 times. Yeah. Put a rain jacket
[00:15:47] Hamish: on. So it's just, it's about, it's about getting it. And this is, and again, I, I.
[00:15:52] I feel like I'm in a good place now 'cause I've got a really good routine. Like I'm sleeping well. I'm exercising really regularly, you know, I'm having these really great connections with [00:16:00] my workout friends. I'm eating well. Um, you know, I've, I'm much, I'm showing up better to my family and it's because I've got into that routine and there's been times where it's been minus two in Wari the past two in a couple of weeks here and.
[00:16:16] I've forced myself to get outta bed. I put a beanie on, I've put skins on, I put a jumper on. Mm-hmm. And not one time have I ever finished that workout and go, I wish I had to stayed in bed. Yeah, because it just sets you up for the day.
[00:16:29] Matt: It's so hard. That first part though. It is like mentally,
[00:16:33] Hamish: I just think, you know what, for me, and again, I know it's not all about me, but I, I can just talk about my own experience, but set yourself up so you're accountable.
[00:16:40] And I've got people coming to my house to train. Mm-hmm. So I have to get up. 'cause if I don't get up, yeah. They're gonna come into the driveway and there's not gonna be any lights on, so they're gonna be like, oh fuck. There's, um,
[00:16:52] Julie: I'm not as well hard as you. So I shift my exercise to indoors.
[00:16:58] Yeah. Okay. So this, this [00:17:00] morning happened to be yoga indoors. Yeah. but if it's, I'm a, I'm a fair weather person, that's akay. Um. I'll do, yeah. Seasonally appropriate activity or movement. Um, because that's what I'm good at. What about you Matt?
[00:17:15] Matt: I play footy, so that's a good one. Interesting. Uh, it's funny 'cause I had a friend the other day we were just chatting 'cause we're catching up as a group of friends and she's like, oh, it's wet.
[00:17:25] You'll be able to come today to like, it's footy will get canceled. I was like, no, this is like. Part of it. sometimes with like injuries, that's the, all the big killer when you're trying to, and especially in winter when you get injured.
[00:17:37] And so, oh, now what? I can't do anything. I'm stuck inside.
[00:17:41] Hamish: That's a really probably good thing to talk about. I know it's not, wasn't on our agenda, but like. We know that being physical, we know that exercise and we know that, you know, all those things help us with our mental health and mental fitness.
[00:17:55] There's a barrier when you're injured.
[00:17:58] Julie: Absolutely. Yeah. Oh,
[00:17:59] Hamish: [00:18:00] injuries suck. Like how do we, you know, okay, middle of winter, you've rolled your ankle, right? I was in a
[00:18:06] Matt: moon bit for four weeks recently, and it sucked. Like I can't do it. Like you just can't do anything. Yeah.
[00:18:10] Hamish: And I think there's a really big mental barrier to get over, like.
[00:18:14] Even though you've just hurt your foot, there's still so many other things that you can do That's right. To help, you know. Yeah. Release those good hormones in your body, like you don't have to do squats or deadlifts or whatever. Yeah.
[00:18:26] Matt: I also couldn't ride a bike. I couldn't, I had to limit walking. I'd literally have to be off it.
[00:18:30] So it's like you, you do. It was probably not the most ideal. Injury to have. Um, so how do we get over that? I just, I just started playing again. I was like, fuck it.
[00:18:38] Julie: One of the things for, you said mental fitness, another term that we like to use is mental flexibility. Yeah. Because when we've got some flexibility around things, we can problem solve a little bit differently.
[00:18:48] And so Matt, for example, if I was working with you, we would talk about, well, what about boxing? What about what, what are some other things that you can do? Um, a classic one that people [00:19:00] really struggle with is you've got a really hardcore runner. Um. Helping them get past, like there's genuine grief, like when you've got an injury and you can't do what you wanna do.
[00:19:11] So first of all, it's about acknowledging that part, which is, I noticed that I'm feeling really sad that I can't run. Yeah. Or I'm feeling really worried that I might never get back to it. Like it's, if we don't kind of address some of those things, that's really important. But then if we can start to come in with some flexibility around what's possible, so it might be okay for the next six weeks, I will.
[00:19:34] Punch a bag or I will, um, not, not punch a bag. No, no. I wonder if
[00:19:39] Matt: people just put it all in the two hard baskets. Like, I just can't even bother now. So how do I deal with that? Yeah. Because it's so easy to be like, and in winter, fuck, I'm taking four weeks off, and I reckon
[00:19:47] Hamish: in winter would be, it's this extra layer of barrier that you've, it's like,
[00:19:52] Matt: oh, like I'm just not gonna go to training tonight.
[00:19:54] I could do stuff inside, but it's where it's cold. I'm inside. Why am I gonna leave? Like, it's like it's, it's being [00:20:00] precious and you just. You, you have the choice. Like it's a very, it's so easy just to jump in the car and you're there and once you're there it's like cool. Or it's like, nah, I'm just gonna watch tv.
[00:20:09] Accountability partner.
[00:20:10] Julie: Accountability partners are really good. One
[00:20:11] Matt: accountability partner. I've got 40 teammates that can hold me accountable too. So it's like, it's just, it's just the lazy, the lazy party's such an easy thing to get in a groove of, and I feel like it's once, it's like this ball, once it goes and it starts moving to like stop it is so hard.
[00:20:26] Julie: So I suppose if we wound it. We, it might be for you, Matt, that you don't find that there are particularly detrimental effects for you if you kind of go into a bit of a slump. Yeah, that's also a good point. Yep. I certainly, if I speak freely, I know for me that I've had some really tough winters. Yeah. I have a really great partner and we now start these strategies really early.
[00:20:49] So I've, I've had great winters for, I would say the last, um, five or six years now that I actually start early. But for me, it, it got to it. I came to the conclusion [00:21:00] that the, um, the negative effects were something that I was not, it's no fun for anyone. Yeah. And so I wanted to start early to make changes.
[00:21:09] And as I often say, I mean, my God, if I'm not following the advice that I'm giving other people, like how hypocritical is that? So you just kind of understanding your own patterns, understand some people fly through winter zero issue at all. But this is talking about those people who either. Um, sub clinically or clinically experienced difficulties because it's natural to e flow through the seasons.
[00:21:32] It's a natural mammal thing to do.
[00:21:34] Hamish: I reckon there's a, like I'm a pretty active person, right? Mm. You know, don't really catch me sitting on the couch much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, there are times in winter and I was actually having a chat with this about someone we both know, um, you know, she's very active as well and really struggles to sit still.
[00:21:51] Sometimes on the weekend, we just wish it would rain 'cause then we can't do anything outside. And you feel really guilty and then you kind of have this like, [00:22:00] you know, guilt free. Guilt free. There we go. Thanks Julia. See why you are the smartest person. The room right now.
[00:22:06] Like sit on the couch with a bowl of pop and watch a movie. 'cause it's pissing with rain outside the can't. That feels good though. And then you go get some, like Ben and Jerry's really like sugary ice cream and you're like, ah,
[00:22:15] Matt: I'm might as we get the pack of malt teasers too. You just like smashing. This is so
[00:22:19] Hamish: good.
[00:22:20] I'm currently doing a reasonably strict diet plan at the moment, so Ben, I'm not getting ice cream at the moment. So don't, but
[00:22:26] Julie: that raises something interesting. So if. Like understanding that rest and recuperation is a really important thing. So if every time that you sit down, you're feeling guilty, we need to talk about that.
[00:22:37] We've gotta work out how, you know, I talk about your, your body as your tool. And, and looking after that system, we need to talk about like, what's going on there that's sitting down after a certain amount of time and stopping and doing something you enjoy is evoking feelings of guilt. We definitely wanna talk about that.
[00:22:55] Matt: This is, this is a really good point because I've, I got written here like, yeah, [00:23:00] and I think we spoke about it before. It's like in some other animals, they, they hibernate. And so for them it's okay just to stop and do nothing. Yeah. Um, yeah. I think there's also a society now where you have to always be doing something.
[00:23:11] It's the next thing, it's the next activity business venture. But it is okay to sometimes Yeah, to stop, stop, like have that movie TV series and I'm not doing anything this weekend because we also need a chance to recover.
[00:23:22] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, I, I went away with the family, not last weekend, on the weekend before and Oh, it was amazing.
[00:23:29] Where did you go? Uh, I went down to Flinder's. We went to the, uh, peninsula, hot Springs, went out for dinner, breakfast, lunch, like all of it, like, um, you know, admittedly I did swing past a project that we're doing down there. Of course, I was in the area. Um, but I came back from that weekend. I'm just like, I'm happy.
[00:23:50] It's a good thing. I like to spend time with the family and Lucy social connections. And with and with it. Do you think that outside, it's also
[00:23:57] Matt: like, I know I love going say [00:24:00] Europe or last year in new for winter and coming back from that heat. Do you reckon there was something to do with the hot springs that is a bit warmer?
[00:24:06] You're in a bit of a warm pool
[00:24:08] Hamish: maybe? Yeah, I think it was new and I think the other, like if we look at those other things, we talk about connection and I was there with my kids and I could see how happy they were. Being in the hot springs and you know, there's not often that the four of us, soon to be five of us sit down together as a family and we're all doing the same thing.
[00:24:29] ' cause Berg's off doing that, Darcy is off doing that. Me and Lucy are trying to do this and I'm trying to do that. And it's just, it was awesome. It was, you know, it was a really nice moment just to slow down and, and it was raining. So, you know, if we can bring that back to what we're talking about now and see these barriers of.
[00:24:46] Well, we can't do these things 'cause it's raining outside or it's cold. Mm-hmm. I'll tell you what, it's fucking cold going from pool to pool, whether the hot spring, but we still did. It was, it's almost the worst, worst part.
[00:24:55] Matt: It's nice and warm when you're like, I can't get out because it's like that wind chill.
[00:24:58] Yeah. Yeah. So I, I do [00:25:00] wanna loop it back to workplace. So, um, have you done anything with your team to try motivate in winter? Because it, I, I visually see not a drop off. There's two points to your IC with team that they start to get. Burnt out. It's that winter time. Yeah. And it's that, it's almost like that November December where it's that last crawl to the end of the year.
[00:25:19] Hamish: So yeah, we, I, I do actually, and I think we've been doing it successfully for the past two years now. Where in September, you know, you've broken the back of winter, you know, um, it's. You know, you're a ton supporter. So your footy team's not in the grand final.
[00:25:34] Matt: Oh,
[00:25:35] Hamish: that's,
[00:25:35] Matt: that's like March. So you, you can plan as much as you need to.
[00:25:39] So, so
[00:25:39] Hamish: what we do is we, we take off that week in where the grand final, um, holiday is. Mm-hmm. So we shut down in company wide for a week in that September. Does that mean no one on your sites at all? No one's on our site, no.
[00:25:53] Matt: Yeah. Okay.
[00:25:54] Hamish: No one's on our site. You know, the only person that I make available is me.
[00:25:58] So people have got, you know, [00:26:00] conversations. Yeah, they, they can come through me. So that's off the back of wind. You know, they're starting, weather's starting to get a little bit better and they're literally taking a week off to recharge. I haven't done anything that is in the middle of winter though, and I think that's probably important.
[00:26:15] That's,
[00:26:15] Matt: I'm doing that for the first time this year. So we do RDUs once a month. So I had the theory of like, well you don't need an RDO in January. You don't need one in probably February. 'cause you've just started. Then December, we don't need one because we've got Christmas. So this's three that you instantly gain.
[00:26:27] Mm. I've then gone, well, if we pull one into one of the month in the year, I now have four. Let's rob another month, and now I've got the five. So we're gonna have the middle of July off. We're just gonna have, everyone is completely shut down company wide. Interesting. Because you've already got the RDUs and there's three months of the year that are just like, well, we kind of had a big break.
[00:26:44] I'm a lot more generous than that. I've just given my team five weeks. So you just do a five week?
[00:26:48] Julie: Yeah. Did you run that by them? Like were they, it sounds like a great idea. We actually had a, it's a good idea.
[00:26:52] Matt: We had a discussion and. Sometimes the, the challenge I have is you've kind of, change is always difficult.
[00:26:58] Yeah. So if you're going from say [00:27:00] seven to three 30, pushing that for some people is they would rather just finish at three 30 and just that's their day. Or some are like, well I've already made the drive here, I'd, what's the extra half hour to get that time off?
[00:27:11] Hamish: So you go seven till four?
[00:27:12] Matt: Yeah. Seven. Uh, seven to 3 45.
[00:27:14] 'cause they wanted, I think that's what I actually don't know. But I'm pretty sure that's my team too, because they also wanted to extend their smoke. I buy another 15, so I just gave 'em the full flexibility, like that's on them to make, decide what times they wanna start as long as they do their eight hours of work.
[00:27:27] Yeah, how they function that if they wanted to do eight to five, I couldn't care. Yeah. It's just how we do this is like, it's we, they're the ones on site. Sometimes I don't even see them in the week.
[00:27:37] Hamish: Do you think there's something in that, Julie, about bringing the decision making into that group scenario rather than you say.
[00:27:46] This is how we're doing it, actually bringing them into problem solving the problem.
[00:27:50] Julie: Most definitely. 'cause if you want buy-in, um, getting others to be involved in the decision making is really important. I mean, obviously there are, you know, as you run a [00:28:00] business, you've gotta make calls and things have to happen for a certain reason.
[00:28:03] But if there's ever any capacity to bring your team in. To help, to help plan, to help make decisions like this. 'cause that was my question. I was imagining like some people would just be going, that is absolutely spectacular. And then I was thinking other people, their RDUs every month is when they, I don't go to the dentist or do the whatevers and Yeah.
[00:28:23] But you are also saying you give them the flexibility to go get your eight hours in, do it however you like, within like a reasonable,
[00:28:30] Matt: you've gotta be fair. Like, yeah. It's hard like. And my team are really good at booking the appointment time of like three 30 or four o'clock if it's for a dentist.
[00:28:38] Like, yeah, I've had the person that's like, oh, I can only book at like 1:00 PM and I'll be done for the day or 9:00 AM or and I understand sometimes if you need to get in, you need to get in. Like, I, I have no problem with that. And we, we will always be super flexible, but I did just, it wasn't pushed on them, but I did suggest that, hey, we should think about this differently.
[00:28:56] Um, I love it. I think we need to think left and right here because [00:29:00] from a selfish point of view, like that's the time when people just start calling you sick. 'cause they just can't be bothered for a day. So what if I gave them a whole week?
[00:29:06] Julie: They can stop and
[00:29:07] Matt: relax. Um, I've actually encouraged them to go away and, and put their actual annual lean onto it.
[00:29:13] Um, I know that when every time that I go to Europe or a summer holiday, like that's the time I'm going, so you've already got a week, like add on two weeks and you, now I've got your three and you're away. I dunno. One of my team is in, he's in Europe for six weeks at that time of the year. Like, go for it.
[00:29:28] Um, I know it comes back because once they come back they're, they're way more energized and it's just like they're, they're freshing in. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:35] Julie: It's also our brains really like something to look forward to. So sometimes it's this idea of, you know, like if we've gotta trudge all our way through winter, just hanging out for our Christmas holidays, it, it's not, it's not a cool thing to do in your brain, but if we've got something to look forward to, that's something that's a really sound thing.
[00:29:52] So,
[00:29:53] Hamish: I don't know if you've got the answer to this, Julie, but if we're talking about the winter blues mm-hmm. And we are talking about your brain likes, [00:30:00] um, mammal brain likes predictability. You know, if we are training it to do something, if we are having a holiday to. Samoa for 10 days in the middle of July.
[00:30:10] Julie: Yeah.
[00:30:11] Hamish: And I'm just reminiscing at this 'cause I can't go this year 'cause I'm having another kid. I reckon you could ask Lucy if you just popped over for a week. Do you know what the old Hamish probably would've just booked it. This is the new Hamish, so this is not happening. So, um, you know, I'm the middle of winter out bang on the way for 10 days.
[00:30:26] Mm-hmm. And then I'm coming back and now it's shitty winter again.
[00:30:28] You know, and I've always, I've got that sort of post-holiday slump like, are you better off not going or you're. No, you No. You need to go. Yeah, you definitely
[00:30:37] Julie: need to go. Okay. Yep. So if we look slightly differently, but if we look at, uh, burnout, one of the ways, and you can burn out on 80 hours a week or 20 hours a week.
[00:30:48] Yes. Yeah. It's not about the number of hours that you're doing, but things like regular breaks are really, really important for getting out. Okay. It's that there's a couple of things. You kind of take yourself out of your [00:31:00] environment and sometimes. Um, you can think more clearly. You actually have a break from things.
[00:31:05] Um, but yeah, regular holidays. I probably, I can't remember if I've told this story before and I've asked for permission to tell this, but I remember somebody that I worked with, um, and they would come in for what I call episodes of care. So they'd come in, you know, every couple of years we would work on the thing that was the problem and off they'd go.
[00:31:22] And it was this one time where just all the things that we normally did. Just were not working for this particular person. And then I asked them how long it was since they'd had their last holiday, 18 months Oof. Booked a holiday. I haven't seen them again. Yep. Because over these episodes of care, we were getting better and better at kind of mining their strengths, working out what works for them, putting all those things in place.
[00:31:45] And often people are just stepping back in to go, ah, yep, I just need to, you know, grease in an oil change to get back in touch with the things that we know that work. But that was a really good lesson for me. Interesting. And for them. So I'm always asking about holidays, what's possible.
[00:31:58] Matt: I think holiday though.
[00:31:59] You need to [00:32:00] get interstate because I think it's just you. Even though if you are like three hours away, I feel like if your team are around, they're still like, oh, they're just, they're just there sometimes, you know? Do you know I have to get away? I always do overseas.
[00:32:10] Hamish: There's a part of me that agrees with that.
[00:32:11] But then, you know, if I'm going back to that little weekend getaway I did with loose and like, I'm still thinking about that break really fondly. Like I left work at one o'clock on the Friday and I had like. Two and a half days of my phone was on do not disturb. Bang. Yeah, no. So committing financial situations, like, why can't you do that more often?
[00:32:32] You know, we, we literally had the conversation while we're away. We used to be so good at it. Yeah. But I think, you know, and I'm not making any excuses, we've just bought this beautiful property and I enjoy working on that. Yeah. So there's. There's all these other conflicting things that come into life where kids, yeah, I, I, I do kids and it's a lot easier not to do that shit when you've my kids.
[00:32:54] No, I totally, and
[00:32:55] Matt: that's one thing, like I'm about to go through that now and there's some things that I'm trying to put in [00:33:00] place and ideas that I have around, I know it's getting away from the winter blues, but trying to fix my time to some extent. Um, I just, I just think, like I say, going into state.
[00:33:11] He's like, we should be encouraging you to go do that, that weekend trip in Victoria or, well, 'cause we are in Victoria like that three hour drive on the weekend, third finish up early into Friday go. Come back Sunday. But I feel it's that big break, like especially in winter. I know if you like skiing, go for it, but go get that sun.
[00:33:27] Yeah, go north.
[00:33:28] Hamish: It just reminded me, um, I got a couple of my supervisors, um, you know, they obviously have a little bit more responsibility on site. There's a lot that more that falls onto their shoulders and I've noticed. Um, particularly one of them, he's like, oh, there, you know, there's never a good time to take a break, so I don't break it.
[00:33:45] No, there's not. And I'm just like, yeah, of course there's not, but what? Just book it in and then just make it happen. Absolutely. Like have you got some advice around, um, good question. Advice around how you can encourage your team to do that no matter, like what's on it work, [00:34:00] someone can always step in and pick up that, or you manage the expectation with the clients, the trades, the other employees that you're not gonna be there.
[00:34:08] Yeah, like what's some other things that we can do to, you know, encourage our team members to, to address their winter blues?
[00:34:16] Julie: I think it's gonna depend a little bit on the person. And so there, I mean, you know, sometimes you've got team members where you have to kind of watch how much holiday time they're clocking up and, and have a really, you know, direct and clear conversation with them in that, um, it's not healthy for you.
[00:34:33] So if you are, you know, if you've got 4, 5, 6 weeks and you're banking them up, you're not gonna perform well and you actually need to encourage that person to take time off. We do some simple things like, um. We don't finish our current holiday without starting to plan the next one because while you're on the actual holiday, you remember why you do it and all of those, oh, I can't leave 'cause it's too busy, blah blah, blah.
[00:34:56] You're actually in the moment where you're going, oh my God, this, this is [00:35:00] why I do this. So we at the very least, um, book our next one. Or we start, we do the same. So you said you're gonna
[00:35:05] Matt: Vietnam, why is the next one now?
[00:35:07] Julie: The next one After Vietnam? Yeah. Yeah. So the one after that, um, we're doing. So I'm taking off fall of January.
[00:35:13] Yeah. And we're doing a northern New South Wales coast camping trip. Oh, now? Yeah. Awesome. So, yeah, that's a, that's a solid one. I
[00:35:21] Matt: tested you there.
[00:35:22] Hamish: I love it. Saw you right on the bus. Hang in a minute. Yeah.
[00:35:25] Matt: But yeah, but they haven't had the Vietnam holiday yet. So said that once she's already planned, while they started to plan the next good.
[00:35:30] So we started
[00:35:31] Julie: planning next January, after last January, where it was like, yeah. A Sun Beach holiday with no screens and no stuff. I mean, I've still got some work to do that I have to do. Yeah. So I've gotta pay people stuff. So I don't have anything
[00:35:42] Matt: planned. Do you have anything?
[00:35:43] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, we're really fortunate we've got a family house in Bateman's Bay, so we've got September booked and we've also got 10 days in, um, uh, over Christmas up there as well.
[00:35:53] Yeah. Lovely mate. So about you
[00:35:54] Matt: mate. Nothing. So we gotta finish, we've gotta finish our house, which should be around October-ish plus the [00:36:00] baby. So pro, like we get a holiday going to the new house. Yeah. Do you know what, does that make sense? Yeah. To make some
[00:36:05] Julie: time
[00:36:05] Matt: and, but I will, pending everything goes well.
[00:36:08] We will go away somewhere warm. Uh, between October to December, I'll just take a week. Or I, I might even take two and work up there for a week. Mm-hmm. I like to get away. I don't have a problem with that. Just to get some warm up. Over
[00:36:20] Hamish: months. Really hoping this comment doesn't come across arrogant or thinking that I'm elevated above anyone that works within my business or, or, you know, bosses or, or business owners and, and employees.
[00:36:33] The reality is if the business owner can take time off, the employees can take the time that's people
[00:36:39] Julie: have
[00:36:39] Hamish: written
[00:36:39] Julie: to. Absolutely.
[00:36:40] Hamish: Because, you know, believe me when I say there is an endless path, endless list of jobs Yeah. Make that we need to do when we're business owners. Yeah. And we can still take time off.
[00:36:51] And I know for me it's really important that my team take time off so when they come back, they are energized. And I always say to them, family first and take holidays.
[00:36:59] Julie: [00:37:00] Um, I wonder if we might just leave with some.
[00:37:02] Some strategies to try and deal with. Oh, yep. I thought we were gonna
[00:37:05] Hamish: do like another card or something. Oh.
[00:37:07] Julie: So if we, we talk about if we are kind of feeling that flat slump or we know that that's something that happens through winter. So we've talked about getting light early, um, keeping moving. And it can be anything.
[00:37:18] So you can jump up and down, do star jumps inside. That's super fine. We talked about sticking to routine, which is really important. Yeah. The other thing is to start to watch your inner talk. So you might notice that you start to get a bit flatter, a bit more negative, and there might be things that you can start to kind of notice with your talk.
[00:37:35] Um, and you know, my red hot, favorite social connection, because again, we tend to hibernate so we don't see people as much. Also,
[00:37:41] Matt: I don't wanna extend this too much, but social connection is not social media. No, because I feel like that is so easy to get to sit on the couch. I'm gonna chat to my friends through a, an app.
[00:37:52] No.
[00:37:53] Julie: in the reels, or at least on, on the videos is good. You know it in not,
[00:37:58] Hamish: not in reels as in Instagram [00:38:00] reels. Like in real, in the real life. I, I was like in, I'm now confused.
[00:38:04] Julie: I-R-L-I-R-L. Yeah. I'm too old. Me saying that crap.
[00:38:08] Matt: No, you're not. You hip. You hip. I think that's a really important one. Get like getting in front of people.
[00:38:14] Yeah.
[00:38:15] Julie: Yeah.
[00:38:15] Matt: Um, so, so important that, and it does, it makes it, it is. It does it. That, that social connection on a weekend breaking away from work, the standard family life and just being like, how's everyone else doing? Um, it does make a huge difference
[00:38:29] Julie: because that thing with footy that you were talking about Matt before, you know I'm sitting there and we were just having a chuckle 'cause it's outside, it's with other people and it's moving around.
[00:38:37] So you are. What that might look like in somebody else's life.
[00:38:41] Matt: Oh, I'm 35, 36 next week. I don't know why I still do it, but there's, the reason why is, yeah, it's our training on a Wednesday, which is today, and we go and, um, have dinner and sit around together, just have a chat. And, and it's really funny that the conversations change from, like, training used to be like, ugh, that they, everyone looks forward [00:39:00] more to training than the games because it's the social connection sitting around.
[00:39:04] And even as we get older, we've talked about. Already, the group of us are quite tight. We've played together for a long time. It's like, keep, um, keep, uh, let's keep training in the future. So, um,
[00:39:16] Hamish: I've just written down here, um, alcohol. Mm-hmm. Um, in your experience, do you see that that becomes a comfort during winter?
[00:39:29] I know when summer comes around, you're outside barbecues, beard and all that kind of stuff, but you can also see. I guess people are less motivated. Their moods are down and they're, oh, well, I'll have a beer. I'll have a glass of wine, or whatever. Do you see like a spike in that and.
[00:39:42] Julie: Yeah, that can definitely be a factor.
[00:39:43] 'cause if you think, again, coming back to that manal brain, that's not feeling great. Mm-hmm. So if you're feeling flat, your brain is like always coming up with scenarios. Yeah. And solutions. And a solution is, 'cause booze is, um, euphoric. It gives you really quick [00:40:00] access to, um, carbohydrates. So it's energy immediately.
[00:40:04] Hmm. So your brain's not stupid. It just goes, oh, I don't feel good. What can I do? Yeah. I've never thought about
[00:40:08] Hamish: alcohol as like a source of carbohydrate. It's got a high, high, I know it does, but I energy,
[00:40:14] Julie: should I say energy? I mean, can't that, because
[00:40:16] Hamish: if you think about physiologically, your body like needs carbohydrates to do whatever,
[00:40:20] Julie: that's what s Yeah.
[00:40:21] Interesting. Um, and again, so it's, it, it is thinking about what shifts or changes in that, in that flatter lower period and what are some things that you might wanna look out for,
[00:40:31] Hamish: you know? And I can attest that if you're moving more, you're drinking less.
[00:40:34] Julie: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Matt: Let's leave that there. Yeah.
[00:40:36] Thanks Julie.