Ask Us Anything with Buildingsciology
“As builders, you have huge overheads. Massive.”
Matt said it in the middle of the conversation and it just hung there for a second, because it is the part people outside the industry rarely see. They see the finished house. They see the invoice. They do not see the cash flow stress, the risk, the holding costs, the admin load, the insurances, the staff, the compliance, the delays, and the fact that one wobble in the pipeline can throw the whole thing off. That is where this chat with Jessica Kismet from Climasure, host of the Building Sciology Podcast, really went.
Jessica jumped in as guest host and asked the kind of questions that cut through the usual builder chat. Money pressure. Risk. Ego. Family. The parts of running a building business that you cannot always explain to someone who has never carried the weight of it.
The Financial Tightrope
Jessica asked if we had ever been close to the financial edge. The honest answer is yes. And the scarier part is, we did not always realise how close we were at the time. Post-COVID, especially, the industry has made it very clear that “she’ll be right” is not a financial strategy. Knowing your numbers is not optional. Cash flow, margins, overheads, the real cost of delays. All of it.
We talked about the learning curve that comes with that. The mistakes. The blind spots. The moments where you realise you were running on instinct when you should have been running on data. It is humbling. But it is also the difference between surviving and building a business that can actually last.
Would We Want Our Kids to Do This?
Jessica also asked whether we would encourage our kids to become builders. And surprisingly, it was an easy yes. Not because the industry is easy, but because the trade gives you something solid. Practical skills. Problem solving. Confidence. The ability to build a life with your hands and your brain.
We are not saying everyone should go into construction. But we do think there is real value in kids learning a trade, even if they end up doing something completely different. It teaches you how to work. How to think. How to finish what you start.
Who Is the Villain in the Building Industry?
We could have picked a single target. Volume builders. Banks. Government. Insurance. Contracts. But the truth is it is usually a combination. A system that makes it hard for good builders to do good work. Legislation that lacks common sense. Oversight that is inconsistent. Training that does not always prepare young builders for the reality of what they are stepping into.
It is not one villain. It is a stack of pressures that push everyone toward shortcuts, stress, and blame. And unless we talk about it honestly, nothing changes.
Perfection, Public Pressure, and What Actually Matters
Jessica also asked about the pressure to look perfect, especially when you are visible in the industry. Matt is better at letting outside opinions slide. Hamish, not so much. When you care about your work, it is easy to turn that into self-imposed pressure. You start thinking you have to get everything right. Say everything right. Be the example.
But the longer you do this, the clearer it becomes. The goal is not perfection. The goal is a good business, good builds, and a life that does not fall apart behind the scenes. Family, health, happiness, balance. The stuff that actually matters.
Clients, Boundaries, and Hard Lessons
We also talked about clients. The difficult ones. The early career mistakes where you compromise too much, ignore red flags, and end up paying for it later. Most builders have a version of that story.
Over time, you learn to vet properly. To have stronger processes. To be clear on what you will and will not do. Not because you want to be difficult, but because boundaries protect the project and the people building it.
Building Science and the Long Game
Toward the end, we got into building science and the long-term thinking that is still missing in parts of the industry. Jessica made an interesting point. Builders are often keen to learn, but there can be less buy-in from architects when it comes to building science basics. That gap matters, because good outcomes rely on everyone understanding how the whole system works, not just their part of it.
This episode is a real conversation about growth, pressure, mistakes, and learning in public. We are not perfect and we are not trying to be. We are committed. To building better homes, running better businesses, and staying honest about what it takes.
LINKS:
Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima
MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt
CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
-
[00:00:00] Matt: Have you ever wondered what it means to build with intention? Well, I'm Hamish. And I'm Matt, and we are dedicated to pushing boundaries and building better homes.
[00:00:11] Hamish: We welcome you to join us on the Mindful Builder podcast, where we're committed to driving positive change in the building industry by surrounding you with experts in their field and
[00:00:19] Matt: being open about our lives as builders.
[00:00:22] Join us on this mindful journey of construction by subscribing to the Mindful podcast.
[00:00:37] So Jess is stressing out. So we've got Jess from Climashore Building Psychology podcast.
[00:00:45] Jess: Uh, yeah, two separate things. Climashore is my p- my day job, Building Psychology is my ...
[00:00:52] Matt: And in true Matt and Hamish fashion, we threw it on a, a day or two ago that she could interview us. She just, yeah. So we're handing this over to Jess from now on.
[00:00:59] Hamish: So [00:01:00] Jess, uh, now Jess is peeking out here because she actually got prepared and had written a whole bunch of questions, and now she can't find them. No, I can't
[00:01:06] Jess: find
[00:01:07] Matt: them. And so just for reference, we are recording from our portable, uh, Pro Clima studios. We're in SA for the next day doing some event, which is cool.
[00:01:17] Um, but perfect. Well, we're
[00:01:18] Hamish: also, we're also at, uh, Enduro Builder's, uh, certified passive house display home, the only certified passive house display home in all of Australia, I've been led to believe.
[00:01:29] Jess: In, definitely in South Australia. Yeah, okay. I'm not sure if it's the whole country. Let's just
[00:01:31] Hamish: make the claim that it's- Yeah
[00:01:33] the only one.
[00:01:33] Jess: It's, yeah, definitely the only display home.
[00:01:36] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. So if you're in South Australia and you wanna come and experience what a passive house is, jump onto the Enduro Builder's website and book a tour, 'cause this house is pretty incredible.
[00:01:46] Jess: Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:47] Hamish: It's nice. Uh, Jess, if you get your stuff out.
[00:01:48] O- on- onto you, Jess. Let's go. Tryna buy... I've been tryna buy you some time here while, uh- Thank you. I had
[00:01:52] Jess: them downstairs on my, uh, on my laptop, and I was like, "Sweet, I know exactly where they are."
[00:01:58] Matt: This is the best. So this... But we [00:02:00] don't prepare any questions, so you should be able to just, just go for it. Oh, sh- Just, uh, what's the most difficult question you had there?
[00:02:05] Jess: All right. Um, I did quickly review them, so I'm just gonna have to shoot from the hip. Do it. Um, all right. I love this. This is
[00:02:10] Hamish: very un-Jess style as well, so- It's so unlike me ...
[00:02:13] Jess: I love it. No, okay.
[00:02:16] Hamish: So- Now, Jess, you, j- by, by way of introduction, Jess, you've actually been on our podcast before, which is why- I have one time, yeah
[00:02:21] which is why we wanna flip the script a little bit, and we've also been on your podcast. Yes. So I'm kinda thinking... And we all talk a lot.
[00:02:27] Jess: Yes. So
[00:02:27] Hamish: I'm thinking this is probably just gonna be a chat.
[00:02:29] Jess: Okay. Yeah, that sounds good to me. Yeah,
[00:02:30] Hamish: but I'd also like to know what your questions are.
[00:02:32] Jess: Yeah. Oh, God. Okay.
[00:02:34] Ooh. So, um, I think I wanted to start off with a question about your, um, okay, deeper in question, and I, only 'cause I can't think of the other ones that are on my list right now. Deep end question, you both run building businesses. Building is a high-stress, high-risk industry to be in. You guys both run very successful businesses- Um, [00:03:00] have you ever been close to the edge financially, like throwing in the towel?
[00:03:06] Matt: Oh. Yep. I, yeah, I, I would say yes, but not knowing that I was close to the edge.
[00:03:13] Jess: Yep. So
[00:03:14] Matt: we actually just had the chat with Jackson, and we're just talking about coaching. Me personally, like I, I haven't tracked my financials. I know they're in my head. I know the business from an accounting perspective is profitable each year.
[00:03:23] Hamish: And, and you know it from end of year.
[00:03:25] Matt: Yeah, yeah, but I don't, but, uh, as time has gone by post-COVID, and now we have issues within the world, I'm needing to know my numbers more and more. And that's, so at the moment, my role is I looked at, like I owned Building Science, and I've owned marketing. Mm-hmm. I'm now owning financials in the same amount of input- Yep
[00:03:44] but I'm trying to understand them. Like I, I want to know every single little bit of financial detail in my business off the top of my head with the click of a finger. Yeah.
[00:03:53] Hamish: So I'm gonna answer that question twice. Mm-hmm. So, so I've been in business for 11 and a bit years [00:04:00] now. Uh, first one was at the very, very beginning of my, uh, journey, where I think at the time I was sitting there blaming the client for what was going on- Mm
[00:04:12] and like that it was a poorly run job and all that kind of stuff. On reflection and what I know now, I didn't manage them well. Mm-hmm. And there was a whole like shit show at the end where they ended up moving in, they locked the doors, and basically said, "Oh, there's lots of defects. You need to fix them."
[00:04:29] And I had $60,000 final payment that was sort of waiting to get paid, and they wouldn't pay it. Took me 18-- It took us 18 months to negotiate- Wow ... around, uh, what happened. Now, yes, they were pains in the ass client, there's no doubt about that, but also, uh, on reflection, like I didn't manage them well, and I allowed to happen what happened, um, and look for any client, potential clients that are listening now, I don't operate like that [00:05:00] anymore.
[00:05:00] Yeah. Definitely don't operate like that anymore. But this is part of the journey as a builder. And I'd
[00:05:04] Matt: say business- as builders, like you have 400K come in, you have 400K come out some days. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's, that's building. Yeah. And that's the hard part because knowing that is, you've, you, you're robbing other jobs for some jobs at some certain times.
[00:05:18] Like- Yeah ... that's just the way that it, that it is. Like there's so much moving parts with three, four projects on the go, five projects. You have to... The money, so it moves around. It's fluid.
[00:05:28] Hamish: Yeah. Mm. It's very fluid.
[00:05:29] Matt: Yeah.
[00:05:30] Hamish: Um, so there was that one, and then but managed to get out of that fine. Uh, and then during COVID, probably not on the edge, but certainly exposed a lot of, uh, deficiencies in my business.
[00:05:43] Um, certainly what we talked about with, before with Jackson and, uh, when things slow down in a business, like COVID obviously slowed stuff down. I had some projects where Uh, we couldn't work on those sites because the clients were living in the home. Like, I don't know what it was [00:06:00] like here in South Australia, but we had to close that part down.
[00:06:03] Mm. But obviously my overheads still existed. So, uh, that was a really interesting, I guess, realization of things that I needed to change in my business. Uh, but you know, I'm happy to say that that doesn't happen anymore. Mm. Um, so- It's a learning,
[00:06:19] Matt: it's a learning curve. Big learning, yeah. Like, I think you...
[00:06:21] Like, uh, uh, I say this politely, a- and it will happen to me too, it will happen again, but you're more prepared for it, but you'll learn more from it now. Well, I- So the problem is different. It's, it's, it's a, you're, you're understanding why it's a problem, and you're proactive rather than reactive. I
[00:06:36] Hamish: was gonna say, like, I think the biggest difference now being, you know, 11 or 12 years into business, maybe even longer, I can't remember, um, is that I can see those things a lot further ahead than back then.
[00:06:49] Like, I just didn't have the experience. Mm-hmm. So we are all the sum of all of our experiences, and based off those experiences, I now can sort of see and forecast and better prepare. And we
[00:06:59] Matt: have, as a [00:07:00] builders, we have huge overheads. Yeah. Massive overheads. And I think that's the part where, um, we're just never taught, the general rule of running a building company is you do your apprenticeship.
[00:07:13] You're most likely not academic, because you've gone into apprenticeship, and that's just how it's been forever and a day. And then that's hopefully changing. Um, we, we're looking at academic as a different way. You just be maybe better with your hands or a better skill. Then you fall into being a builder because that's just what happens, and then all of a sudden you're running a business.
[00:07:29] You're never taught financials. You're never taught marketing. You're never taught HR. You're never taught all those things. Yeah, you're really good on site and you understand the complexity of the construction. But the business stuff, like, you learn by baptism of fire.
[00:07:43] Hamish: You learn by fucking up.
[00:07:44] Matt: Yeah, you, yeah, that's it.
[00:07:45] That, and I think that's the hard part. Like, so many people now, they wanna learn building science. There's so many resources, and yeah, there's resources in business, but it's a little bit different, I feel.
[00:07:53] Hamish: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:54] Jess: Mm, mm. I completely resonate with everything you said. I was part of running a building company years ago, and [00:08:00] I, like, I found the same thing.
[00:08:02] Like, there's no... Back when we were doing it, there was no, in fact, there was no podcast like this. There was no really good mentoring that we could find. There was no advice. Like, did your, when you went into building, did, were you given any guidance on how to run a business- ... from your families? From- No,
[00:08:20] Matt: the, uh, so this is, this-
[00:08:21] your, like, trade school? This is, this, and like I love my parents and I've got a great relationship. Um, and this isn't a neg- negative thing. And I, I, how do I word this? If your parents are telling you it's a great idea and you should go do it, it might, most likely might not be, because they're only doing it to support you and encourage you to do something.
[00:08:43] Like, my parents haven't run businesses, so for them, like- There is no transition of that knowledge
[00:08:50] Jess: Perhaps they didn't understand what they were encouraging you to... Like, if they were encouraging you, perhaps they didn't understand the whole big picture- Oh,
[00:08:55] Matt: they're definitely encouraging. Yeah, they're definitely encouraging as, like- Of what
[00:08:57] yeah. They want you to
[00:08:58] Jess: get a trade, right? Yeah. They want you to have a [00:09:00] career path.
[00:09:00] Matt: Yeah, they weren't inc- they weren't inc- they were encouraging in the aspect of, like, support. They were sup- very supportive. Yeah. Um, the business stuff, you just can't. Like, I, I, I don't, like, I don't even know, even if Mum and Dad have done it, we're running a business, I don't know if would it be translatable unless it was in construction.
[00:09:16] Hamish: I think business is business, though. I mean, I think, um-
[00:09:18] Jess: It's knowing your numbers.
[00:09:20] Hamish: Yeah, I mean, knowing the numbers is something that took me a long time to really click with. Mm. You know, my, my brain doesn't naturally go there. I'm more interested in the creative side of things. I like the marketing, I like the problem-solving.
[00:09:33] You know, it takes a lot for me to get engaged with that stuff, and I'm, I'm becoming more and more engaged with that, you know, with every week that goes by. You've gotta find a
[00:09:41] Matt: way to make financials fun. That's what I'm trying to do. Yeah,
[00:09:43] Hamish: totally. And yeah, like, and for someone like me, I really need to sort of cut, compartmentalize it into time slots.
[00:09:50] Like, if I'm like, I need to learn what my WIP means or, like, what my cash position is, or what are, you know, what all these things are, like, I couldn't be like, "Well, I'm gonna do [00:10:00] it this week- Mm-hmm ... or for the next two weeks." It needs to be like, "Right, I'm gonna allocate this time every single week to work on that a little bit."
[00:10:07] Uh- And just block it out in your calendar. But yeah, that's what I do. Yeah, same. I've got it, I've got it, I've got it in my diary to do it. Now, that's me personally. It, some other people might, um, be completely different. I, I mean, I kind of entered in the construction industry, I guess, through the back door.
[00:10:21] Like, I'm, I haven't got a carpentry apprenticeship, but I was on the tools for 12 years. Mm-hmm. So I know how, I know how to build a home. Pretty much like Jackson. Mm. Jackson's pretty handy. Uh, and construction made sense to me. I actually went to uni, and I've got a business degree, um, focusing on marketing and tourism.
[00:10:42] Mm-hmm. So this is why I'm so excited about marketing. Yeah. Um, and I did do basic accounting and basic economics, but that stuff I found quite boring. It, I, I wasn't engaged by it. I, I was engaged- ... with the creativity side of the tourism and the marketing stuff, and that's evident in my [00:11:00] ability to go and market- Mm
[00:11:00] and see how we can communicate- Yeah ... what Sanctum Homes does. Uh, but, like, the, the numbers for me is certainly something that... And I know for you,
[00:11:09] Matt: you know. I actually love numbers, so that's probably why I was drawn to pace fast, did a science degree. So I'm actually very comfortable right now trying to learn them, but it's the, it's the distractions.
[00:11:19] There's so many other things that go on in the world right now, uh, that you can just, the tools, how you have accessible to use, which for the good, but it's, it's narrowing and, like, what do, what do you, is at the core of what you're trying to learn.
[00:11:31] Hamish: Yeah, and I'm just gonna throw a caution to a wind. This is really just a throwaway comment from me.
[00:11:35] There's a lot of people out there that right now are like, "Oh, AI's gonna solve that for me." Yeah. I think AI can help you solve problems- But it's like, uh, you know, y- y- you drive a car, like, you need to learn how to drive a car before you jump into a race car. Mm. And I think by attaching AI to your business, you're supercharging your business, and if you don't know how to drive [00:12:00] that really well, then you're probably gonna go down the gurgler really
[00:12:04] Matt: quickly.
[00:12:04] I'm using it as a coach to help me learn. So I'm not telling it to go, "Hey, go... What's my financials?" Like, I'm actually, for... And I'll just make this up. Can you explain how WIP is? How does... What does it work? How is it calculated? Yeah. Can you step me through to work it out?
[00:12:16] Hamish: That's awesome, but you need to know what...
[00:12:17] You need to know that you need to find a WIP- Um, so these are- You need to find out what WIP means first ... So these, so these are the...
[00:12:21] Matt: Yeah. So these are, and this is- Is it- Like, I'm, I've asked her to go back to, like, basics. Yeah.
[00:12:26] Hamish: And that's what I'm saying. I think you need to learn the basics of something- Yeah
[00:12:30] before you start layering over this, you know, all these other tools, whether that's software, whether it's AI- Yeah ... or whatever. I think you need to know how to use it first or have a basic understanding. Like, don't just rely on, like, an external source- No ... to fix your problems. Yeah. What's next?
[00:12:47] Jess: Yeah. Um, given all of that and, you know, if you've got four kids between you, if either of-
[00:12:53] Matt: Hamish has three, by the
[00:12:55] Jess: way
[00:12:55] any Unevenly balanced, but if any one of
[00:12:57] Matt: your kids- We, we don't have kids
[00:12:58] Hamish: together. [00:13:00] Yet. Yeah.
[00:13:00] Jess: Let's make that really
[00:13:01] Hamish: clear.
[00:13:02] Jess: Um, if any of your kids picked up a tool belt at any point, would you encourage them to do it? 100%. To
[00:13:06] Matt: take on the path that you've taken? Just, like, Bella can do what she wants. Like, she's nine months old now, but I'll encourage her- So that will
[00:13:13] Jess: disappear like that
[00:13:14] Yeah. And, and, like, for
[00:13:15] Matt: me, encourage her to do whatever she's happy with. I think, did we not learn during COVID, like, go chase whatever you love. The mon- Set, set aside money for them for the moment. If you, like, if you love something, you can make money out of it. You, like, it will eventually come.
[00:13:30] Hamish: I, I agree with that, but also, probably to answer your question, probably selfish from my side, I would love my kids to be part of my business.
[00:13:36] Same. But as, you know, Darcy grows up, as Phoenix grows up, and, you know, Juniper's just sort of hard to see where, like, she wants to go 'cause she's nine months old. But I, I see Darcy and I see Phoenix, and I think if I was to put a bet on one of them putting a tool belt on, it'd be Phoenix. Mm-hmm. Like, Darcy, he's interested, but he's not, like, interested.
[00:13:57] Mm. Like, Phoenix watches, like, building [00:14:00] shows on YouTube. Like, he loves it. Yeah. And you, you can see it from a young age. And I, I wouldn't be pressuring... I wouldn't say, "Darcy, mate, you gotta come into the family business." I'd be like, "The, the door's open if you wanna learn."
[00:14:12] Matt: That's like to anyone. It's so, it's like anyone that wants a job or an apprentice- Yeah
[00:14:16] they... I don't look at my daughter any different. But
[00:14:19] Hamish: to a- If, if, if to answer your question really simply, I would, I would say it's a great opportunity to learn something really practical, which I think is gonna transcend any changes in our work environment. Yeah. So I think knowing how to build things is such a...
[00:14:36] Lost- I'm trying to think of the word ... lo- lost skill ... Like, such a lost skill. Like, the, like, to be able to work around my own property and be able to just do stuff- Like, like I haven't been on the tools for a long time, and this weekend I just knew what I needed to do to form up a curved bit of form work for where we're putting a spa
[00:14:52] Jess: Makes you a really useful husband too.
[00:14:54] Well, you know, and-
[00:14:55] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:14:56] Jess: Tick.
[00:14:57] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:14:58] Matt: Total- absolutely. Isn't it, what's, [00:15:00] what's old saying, a builder never finishes their own house, so- Useful
[00:15:02] Hamish: husband or useful wife as well. Or wife. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, to answer your question, I would, I would, I would say it's a great trade to get into- Mm ... or, or trades are a good thing to get into, if they want to.
[00:15:14] Matt: Oh, like, like Noah, like when she's older, like she, she wants to do some... If she wants some money, she can go fill a skip on the weekend for it. Like, you'll learn, like- Yeah,
[00:15:22] Jess: my daughters get on the work site.
[00:15:23] Matt: I think that's, I think that's really important- Yeah ... that, like she'll have an opportunity that most won't, that she can come work for me as a younger kid to earn a bit of money.
[00:15:31] Yeah. Very good. Yeah, I've got some
[00:15:32] Jess: ripping photos of my kids on their dad's work site, like using drop saws- Yeah ... and all sorts of cool stuff. Like,
[00:15:37] Matt: yeah. Next school holidays when she wants to. Yeah, that's the luxury we have. Yeah. So. Yeah.
[00:15:42] Jess: Totally. Yeah. There's a, was it P- was it Pat Rafter, some tennis player who said that he would never ever let his children play tennis because he was so scarred by the tennis world.
[00:15:52] So different, totally different job. That's selfish. Like, let your
[00:15:54] Matt: child have your own- their own ambitions and support whatever they want.
[00:15:57] Jess: Yeah.
[00:15:58] Matt: Yeah, but I guess,
[00:15:59] Hamish: I guess that's a [00:16:00] reflection of his experience. Yeah. He had a very bad experience. The, the, the reflection of my experience as a trade is really positive.
[00:16:05] Yeah. But I also can understand that-
[00:16:07] Jess: Other builders, maybe not so much.
[00:16:08] Hamish: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's
[00:16:10] Jess: interesting too that you both have got sep- you've got different training, and Jackson as well, you've got different training coming into being builders. Yeah. So you've got a degree in marketing and business.
[00:16:18] Science. You've got a science degree. And, and
[00:16:19] Matt: I, and I finished a carpentry apprenticeship too. And did carpentry. Jack- Jackson's a yacht builder.
[00:16:23] Jess: Jackson had a completely different career before he started a building business. Did
[00:16:26] Matt: you know that? No.
[00:16:27] Jess: Yeah. He w- he was building, he was sailing and building yachts and stuff.
[00:16:30] Wow. He's like a
[00:16:30] Hamish: champion, um, sailor. He looks like it. He does. Um,
[00:16:33] Jess: but I think it's interesting that, that the three of you- His shirt tucked in ... have had these different pathways to get to where you are. Um, and perhaps some of the other builders out there, they come straight out of school, they leave school early, they do their apprenticeship, and they don't have any other life experience apart from on a building site- Yeah
[00:16:51] and then they have to run a business. And things like superannuation and tax and work cover once you start employing people- Yeah ... like all of that is like [00:17:00] s- so
[00:17:01] Matt: overwhelming for someone- Yeah, public liability, contracts, work insurance. Yep. You know, even as-
[00:17:05] Jess: It's a freaking nightmare ... yeah, and
[00:17:06] Hamish: even, uh, a few years ago I got caught out by not paying, uh, Leave Plus.
[00:17:11] Yeah Uh, which was like a, that's a, it's a- Superannuation.
[00:17:15] Matt: It's a- Not a ... it's a good
[00:17:16] Hamish: one. It's, it's a long service leave- Long service leave, yeah ... for your onsite team. Oh, yeah. 'Cause I got given some bad advice saying, "Oh, you don't need to pay it. It's a, it's a, that's a union thing. That's a commercial thing."
[00:17:26] Ended up costing me 25 grand 'cause I had to back pay it all. Yeah. So, like there's all these
[00:17:30] Matt: lessons that you've gotta
[00:17:31] Hamish: learn
[00:17:32] Matt: as a- There's no, you don't, you don't finish your apprenticeship, started building business and here's a checklist of-
[00:17:36] Jess: No ... what you're gonna worry about. I think it's a major failing of the industry.
[00:17:40] Not only is the industry like, you know, the job sites, there's not enough oversight on, on the job sites, although some builders will say there's too much, um, there's not enough training for the young people coming through and starting businesses. Yeah, agree. But, but is- Yeah, but- That's a failing ...
[00:17:54] Matt: but also there's a failing that, uh, they're not, like learn- like, uh, carpenters aren't taught to [00:18:00] teach.
[00:18:00] Yeah. I think there's a number of failings. At the end of the day, like, is it their problem to teach us how to run a business?
[00:18:06] Jess: Someone's got to flag it somewhere. Because once, like, I don't know if kids who go and get their trades understand that they are, like, they're essentially not gonna be full-time employees, they're gonna be running their own businesses.
[00:18:16] Matt: Mm.
[00:18:16] Jess: Once they finish their trade, that's their pathway. I reckon there's
[00:18:19] Matt: a moving trend. I reckon more people are seeing that running a business isn't as attractive and sexy as what they once thought. They, they, especially in building, they, they love being on site, they love working with tools. The reality is, if you're a construction business and you're the, the, the builder now, you don't do that.
[00:18:35] That, that, days, those days are gone.
[00:18:37] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:18:38] Matt: So you're, you're, you're more- You're, yeah, you're HR, you're marketing, you're the estimator, you're, you're wearing multiple hats. And whilst you might be working on the business doing these things, you, you still have to be across them all.
[00:18:49] Jess: And not only do you have to be across all of that, now you guys have got to be legit movie stars as well.
[00:18:53] You've got to be
[00:18:54] Hamish: constantly selling yourself.
[00:18:56] Jess: Well, you've got to be social media. Yeah,
[00:18:58] Matt: absolutely. There's a
[00:18:59] Hamish: whole raft of skills you've got [00:19:00] to have. That's, that's, that's the, yeah, but that's the thing.
[00:19:00] Matt: You, you have to do everything.
[00:19:02] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:19:02] Matt: And, and, and the time that it takes, you just don't get to build. You know what, there, uh, like, probably to
[00:19:08] Hamish: answer your q- uh, probably go, circle back to your first question.
[00:19:11] Like, I had a moment, like probably a couple of months ago, and thought to myself, like the idea of going back to something much more simpler- Mm ... at, at that particular point in time was appealing. Like putting a tool belt back on and a- physically being part of putting the things together. Mm. Like, I really miss that.
[00:19:33] Yeah. Like, really miss it. Now I've got, fortunately, I've, I can kind of scratch that itch on the weekend at my own home, but I've also got a family that I want to spend some time with. Yeah. And I've got to give my wife some time to go and do what she wants to do, and all those things. But, you know, th- th- th- I was seriously thinking, "Oh, could I, could I go back on the tools?"
[00:19:53] Mm. "Could I go back on the tools 20 or 30 hours a week and then do 20 hours of, like, all the other stuff that needs to happen?" [00:20:00] I quickly realized that that's probably not gonna, that's probably not reasonable. Yeah. But, like, it seemed like a really nice idea. Seemed a lot simpler.
[00:20:09] Jess: Yeah.
[00:20:10] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Jess: All right, who do you think is the biggest villain in the building industry right now?
[00:20:15] Do you think it's the volume builders- ... who are cutting corners? Is it the banks who are tightening lending? Or is it councils and regulators?
[00:20:24] Hamish: Is there a, is there a fourth? I can see Matt just- I had a great answer ... faces lighting
[00:20:28] Matt: up. Please. I might get sued if I have. If I say, is there a fourth?
[00:20:31] Jess: Who do you feel, who makes it hardest for you?
[00:20:33] Who
[00:20:33] Hamish: makes it harder? Okay. Government. So- Government, government, government, government. So is it, is it the banks? Is it the volume builders? Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit on the volume builders thing for a second. Yeah. I, I don't think they're the villain. No. I actually think that they are just a product of a competitive free market economy.
[00:20:51] Mm-hmm. Because people want homes, and they exist because they offer a product in the environment. So I don't think it's the volume [00:21:00] builders. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I don't think it's the banks. And I don't think it's the councils. I think it's all of them poured into a big bucket, and it all impacts, like, the challenges of being-
[00:21:13] Matt: It's legislation.
[00:21:14] Yeah. So it comes down from councils to- Yeah ... be- c- I think councils, they all play their role. Like, I think we gotta go back to, uh, like, we don't, huh, like banks, but at the end of the day, their goal is to be profitable, isn't it? Yeah. So they're there to make as much money as possible. Yeah. And de-risk. So- And, and
[00:21:29] Hamish: also, so you, you, you also got to remember that the people that are the beneficiaries of banks are the shareholders of the banks- Yeah
[00:21:36] which might be you, which might be you, which might be me. So we don't want the banks to go bankrupt. Yeah. So we sit here complaining about them making it hard to borrow money or raising interest rates. They need to make money so we all exist. Yeah. 'Cause if the bank collapses, like, you think a couple of building companies go under as an issue?
[00:21:52] Wait till a fucking one of the- There's a big- ... big fours go under. Yes Yeah. Well, oh,
[00:21:55] Matt: havoc was America. What was it? Um- Uh- Was JP- not JP Morgan, was it? I
[00:21:59] Jess: think it was. Oh, the [00:22:00] one that triggered- Yeah. It c- ...
[00:22:01] Matt: the global financial crisis? Yeah, exactly. That, that is exactly what happened. So- Yeah ... so I, I, I, government, councils are just another extension of government now.
[00:22:08] Yeah. And councils are, I think, the biggest barrier in building more homes and better homes. Yeah. I think they are the biggest- They certainly
[00:22:13] Hamish: slow the process down. Yeah.
[00:22:14] Matt: Yeah. I just think legislation. I think legislation is just- In what way? Everything. Like, what, what way isn't it a barrier at the moment?
[00:22:22] There's so many rules and regulations and handbrakes and, um, lack of common sense. So I know we predominantly speak about Victoria, but just, for example, we've got changes coming this year on multiple fronts from how contracts are set to minimum financial... What's the thing about- Ah, yeah. You gotta have a, um, um, a cert- Yeah, so insurance.
[00:22:41] And, n- we still don't even know what's happening. Mm. And they're just changing things because they've realized they fucked it up and they're reactive rather than being proactive. It's like the volume build- It's like the, the BPC right now. To m- get more builders in, they're making an online test compared to an in-person interview.
[00:22:56] That has a flow on effect in 15 years when you've got shit builders who shouldn't have [00:23:00] been in the industry, and now we've gotta fix it. Or we have a look at them with the lack of issues around mold and condensation and how reactive and slow they are with that, and I can guarantee you, just like we had the cladding levy, we're gonna have a mold and condensation levy.
[00:23:13] Like- Th- that's why I say they're the barriers because they're not just the short-term barriers, they're the long-term barriers as well Well,
[00:23:19] Hamish: and it's also really easy for us to sit here and say that this is where the problems are without, like, the context of what the decision-makers, uh, what information they're using to make decisions.
[00:23:30] But from where I'm sitting, my, my opinion is that they're looking at all the different problems individually, and rather than zooming out- Yes ... well, not problems, but all the things that they're implementing. They're doing, "All right, we're gonna fix insurance, and we're gonna make the contract a bit better, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do that."
[00:23:46] But they're not... They're, they're looking at all as individual things, rather than zooming out and looking at it all together. Have we,
[00:23:52] Matt: like, have we not looked at this in a global perspective right now and not to into, like, worldwide eco- economy, um, economics? Haven't we seen China have [00:24:00] zoomed out for the last 30 years to see a long-term play on renewables, investing in their own country, making sure they're stockpiled with the r- right, the right, uh, resources and minerals and that?
[00:24:09] And at the moment, are they complaining of what's really happening too much in the world? Where everyone else is so reactive right now with what is happening, and at the hands of one person or two people who could shut down the Strait. Uh, it, this goes to the exact point about, uh, the economy and politics in Australia is zoom out, like, what is the end game?
[00:24:28] And Jesse Clark raised that with us on a podcast, probably by the time you listen to this, that's out. But like, what are we trying to achieve?
[00:24:34] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:24:35] Matt: And at the moment, there's no goals. Let's just put things in, in here, and let's change that and do that. Just, just for
[00:24:38] Hamish: context around that, w- uh, we were talking with Jesse Clark about, like, what the perfect house is, and so what is it that we're trying to aspire to?
[00:24:46] And from w- our talking with Jesse, there wasn't, like, this perfect avatar home or the perfect example of a home that the NCC was trying to achieve. Mm. It was just, "Oh, well, what change can we make this time?" Without no end goal. [00:25:00] Mm-hmm. Which I found really challenging. Now, I'm gonna stop my- self short of saying I think we should turn ourselves into a communist society.
[00:25:09] However...
[00:25:11] Matt: It's working, though. I'm not saying.
[00:25:12] Hamish: I'm not not saying that you look at what China's doing, and it's not terrible. Now, maybe we'll lose some podcast listeners for that, and maybe if we don't make that a reel- ... 'cause it'll spin itself around the algorithm, like, flat out. But, like, we've been doing things a way for a long time, and now we're...
[00:25:29] some holes are starting to be exposed- Mm ... and I think we just need to take stock and have a look at the current state of the world right now, and, and I don't know, have a think about how we're doing business.
[00:25:39] Matt: Yeah, and I think, yeah, that's, that's... I don't mean it like there's... But there's pros and cons to every form of s- government, and I think that you just gotta look at it as a holistic picture rather than pick and choose the pieces you wanna take out of it.
[00:25:52] Jess: Mm-hmm. Do you guys ever feel because you are so forward-facing, you're -- the Mindful Builder podcast, you've got Sanctum Homes, which has got a reasonably high profile on, you know, [00:26:00] the interwebs. You're part of the Sustainable Builders Alliance. Matt, you guys have got really a quite, uh ... Um, sort of you're well-known in this pocket of the industry.
[00:26:08] Do you ever feel pressured to, like, be perfect?
[00:26:11] Matt: Nah, not at all. Yeah. Oh, I'm the owner. I knew you were gonna say that, both of you. Yeah. Oh.
[00:26:16] Jess: I knew it. Like, I'm not allowed to fuck up because I'm Hamish from Sanctum Homes. I make
[00:26:21] Matt: mistakes every day.
[00:26:21] Jess: And Matt's
[00:26:22] Matt: like, "What?" And I just don't care. I'm normal. I'm a, I'm human.
[00:26:26] I, I, I don't know about you, but, like, I feel no pressure to put out content. I do it 'cause I enjoy it. Um, we do this because I think we both enjoy it. Yeah. Like, I, if I, if, if we both wanted to stop for a month, we would. Mm. I don't feel pressure one little bit.
[00:26:40] Hamish: But I think it also goes to something that maybe you and I talked about in the car earlier on.
[00:26:43] Mm. You know, and we won't go into that, but it was, like, we're different personalities with different backgrounds. Yeah. Like, we obviously share really similar views on what we're trying to do with this podcast. Mm. Um. Huh. F- for me, yeah, definitely, I feel a legitimate pressure. Where's the [00:27:00] pressure you feel?
[00:27:00] Um, but I think the pressure's more my perceived pressure of what other people- Yeah ... expect from me. Uh, I mean, n- this, I feel like I'm at, like, a psychologist right now. Jeez, the couch is changing a lot today. We are on the couch. Oh, wow. No, no, I, I, I genuine- I genuinely do. And, and I think m- more recently I've certainly, uh, had a really big think about, like, what my business goals are.
[00:27:23] Mm-hmm. And they've definitely changed. Uh, you know, before it was all growth on growth on growth on growth. And certainly since, you know, being friends with guys like Jackson and seeing what he's doing with his business is really inspiring. And I'm, "Well, maybe I can do that." And I reckon I could. I reckon I got the right personality to do it.
[00:27:42] Matt: I don't wanna build 100 homes a year.
[00:27:44] Hamish: But I, I guess it's aspiring to something. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. And whether it's 100 homes or whether it's 10, 10 million turnover. Yeah. What- whatever it is. I, I'm, I'm really taking stock m- r- more recently around what's enough for me. Mm. And feeling comfortable [00:28:00] with that.
[00:28:00] And rather trying to ignore the noise of what my perceived expectations from others is. What do you think people perceive you as? Well, I'd hope that people see me as a nice person. Mm. Uh, and a real person as well.
[00:28:18] Jess: I'd say 100%.
[00:28:21] Hamish: But, but also- Yeah ... you know, I think there is, like, people ... I, I, I don't know because every, every one of our listeners probably has a different perception of me, and they have a different possession of-- perception of you.
[00:28:33] So I, I mean, I think we have a role to play in helping improve the industry, but I don't necessarily think that we need to build 20 homes a year and turn over $15 million to still have the same impact that we're gonna have. And this is something that I've been realizing recently. Like I reckon I could build two homes a year, turn over $3.5 million a year, and I still feel I could have the same impact- Yeah
[00:28:59] that if I built [00:29:00] 20 homes a year and turned over $20 million. And that's something that I've been, you know, working through with myself over the last, you know, little bit. It's t- 'cause I've got a young family, I'm 43, you know, by the... I was talking about it before. By the time Junie's 10, I'm gonna be in my 50s.
[00:29:15] Quite Gerald. I wanna be there for her. I wanna be available for her. Yeah. So I wanna just find that balance. Mm-hmm. And the balance might be that I build seven homes a year. Mm-hmm. And that's great. So I, I'm really trying to work out for me, not necessarily what other people are. Mm-hmm. And it's, that's challenging.
[00:29:32] But, but
[00:29:32] Matt: there's a pr- So the pressure's coming from you, not from others.
[00:29:35] Hamish: My pressure is coming from my thoughts of what other people think I should be. When really it should be what I think I should be.
[00:29:44] Matt: And the, I'm assuming those people who think what you should be, you couldn't give two fucks what they probably think either, but you, you kind of- I, I do, but I shouldn't, but I do.
[00:29:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. They're not like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... it's not like it's not your wife
[00:29:56] Hamish: or- But I also feel like I'm at that ripe age of where I'm probably due for like a midlife [00:30:00] crisis,
[00:30:00] Matt: so. Hamish is gonna end up in a convertible Audi next week driving around. But
[00:30:04] Jess: I think the 40s is a real age of reckoning for a lot of people.
[00:30:07] I know it was for me. Yes. Yeah. Um, early 40s you sort of, you, it's like a, a bump in the road where, you know, you're 20 years away from being 20, um, and something happens. Something happens about the way you think about the rest of your life. Yeah. You, you all of a sudden realize how much your decisions matter and how close the future is- Yeah
[00:30:27] and how much- Yeah ... the people around you matter. But I think also- And, um- ...
[00:30:29] Hamish: like on that, like you, you also, and, and if I'm... How old are you? 36? 37? Yeah, 36. 36. Okay. Ooh. Th- 36. Yeah. I'm thinking more about my mortality now. Mm. Probably for a couple of reasons. One, 'cause I've got young kids. Mm-hmm. But two, that I've got aging parents.
[00:30:46] Yeah. So I'm at this really- It's becoming real ... interesting, like- That's right ... juncture in my life where my family's growing and, you know, I've got this magic, amazing future with them, but then I've probably got a shorter time with my [00:31:00] family. Yeah. With my parents. And I haven't really thought about it until recently, and I think it's 'cause I'm getting older and I'm seeing my parents age.
[00:31:08] Mm-hmm. Which is what... Oh, fuck. We're getting really deep. How are we? That's my biggest fear- Wow ... of anything But I, but I didn't have these thoughts when I was in my 30s. I'm having them more now. No. And maybe it is this sort of natural time- 10 years ago our
[00:31:18] Jess: parents were still, like-
[00:31:20] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:31:20] Jess: they were still completely the way we remembered them.
[00:31:23] Your, your- Yeah ... parents are always
[00:31:24] Matt: invincible. Yeah. You always think that they're invincible. But, but- Like nothing can happen to them ...
[00:31:28] Hamish: but you get to the point now, and I think as I get older, where you realize that they're not.
[00:31:32] Jess: Well, my father passed away, uh, nearly five years ago, and I cannot believe it has been five years.
[00:31:37] Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. It's absolute... I cannot believe it. And, um, yeah But to me, he was poof- Yeah ... as dads are.
[00:31:46] Hamish: But, but I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, is like, um, right now I'm trying to work out, like, what is the right thing for me and my family and for me at this particular time. Mm-hmm. But still scratch the itch of my entrepreneurialias- entrepreneurialism- Mm-hmm
[00:31:58] [00:32:00] and, you know, how motivated I am and how much I do want to succeed. Mm. So yeah, does that answer your question? Mm. You go. I think so. It probably does, yeah. But I, I, want to hear Matt, though, because Matt is, is a slight... Well, we're a similar age- Yeah ... but slightly different life stage.
[00:32:14] Matt: And different
[00:32:15] Jess: attitudes as well.
[00:32:16] Matt: So I'm just like, I just don't care what people think. Like I've, I've played that card in my head too many times, and I know that ultimately the people that I care most about love me, so therefore people outside of that, I, like, I really couldn't give two shits what people write on an Instagram comment.
[00:32:32] In fact, I have no- I love trolling them back and telling how life, shit their life must be if they want to sit there and Instagram comment. Having a crack. Like, let's be serious here. I think, uh, I, I know I'm outspoken. I know I don't have a filter. Um, I really don't care. But I, I probably won't say something unless I can have a, like a backup with a conversation and be honest.
[00:32:54] Like I will sit there and have that. But I, I don't know, I've just never really cared too much about [00:33:00] my perception. I don't know.
[00:33:02] Jess: Mm-hmm. I
[00:33:02] Matt: don't know why.
[00:33:04] Jess: I think the idea that you're talking about, Hamish, where you know you shouldn't care, but you still do, I think is something that lots and lots of people- Mm
[00:33:11] struggle with. Mm. Um, and I heard someone say over the weekend, um, on a podcast or on a reel or something, um, "The longest distance you travel is the distance between your head and your heart." And I was like, that is really profound. Yeah, really profound. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit with that for a minute because I feel like the things you know and the things you feel can be very different.
[00:33:30] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:33:31] Jess: Um, and I, I just felt like that was, yeah, something that I'm gonna carry.
[00:33:36] Matt: Yeah, I like that. Yeah. For me, life's too short to worry about what other people think. Like, uh, like I, I was out for dinner last night with, with my wife and my, my best closest group of friends that we caught up from a park, went with the kids, and then went out for dinner after it.
[00:33:50] Like to me, like I got them, I'm sweet. I've got my family. Like I'm cool. You're very lucky that you've got a
[00:33:54] Jess: close group of people like that. Yeah, I've got an
[00:33:55] Matt: extremely close, like, like- It's very lucky, and not everyone gets that ... like extremely... Like [00:34:00] I know I'm very sheltered in so many aspects like that.
[00:34:02] But I'm, um... the, the friendship group that I have and my family, like it's, I've never-
[00:34:08] Jess: You're safe.
[00:34:09] Matt: I, I'm more than safe. And yeah, I've had ups and downs, like my cousin took her life when, while I was 20. Like I've seen, I've seen the, what the, the turmoil that that can cause, and I think I, that's why for some, for me, it's like I'm, like you never know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
[00:34:24] Mm. Um, and so for me, I'm, I just kind of try to live every day as is. I'm not perfect. Like at the moment, I can't put my phone down. Like I, I really wanna get better at coming home and switching off. That's, that might take me five years But you, you sort of roll with those sort of things.
[00:34:41] Jess: Mm-hmm. Have you always lived in Melbourne?
[00:34:43] Matt: Yeah, I've, I grew up in Williamstown and I, yeah, so I went, I've grown from, lived in the same house pretty much my whole life.
[00:34:51] Jess: And you? You've always lived in Melbourne? I
[00:34:53] Hamish: was born not far from here.
[00:34:54] Jess: Oh, yeah? Right.
[00:34:55] Hamish: In Adelaide Hills.
[00:34:56] Jess: You're
[00:34:56] Hamish: actually home. Yeah, I'm home. I'm home. That's nice. I moved here when I [00:35:00] was two though.
[00:35:00] Oh. I did live through the 1983 Ash Wednesday fires though. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah, they burnt right up to our family's back fence. Wow. Yeah, I got caught up there with me and my sister. Wow. Uh, my older sister, and dad was in town, couldn't get up the hill. Goodness. Interesting. Yeah, hectic. There
[00:35:18] Jess: you go. History.
[00:35:18] Hamish: Hectic, yeah.
[00:35:19] Jess: The reason I ask is because I've moved around a lot in my life, so you've got this established place to belong. Yeah. I've moved around a lo- I still have a place to belong, but it's not the same.
[00:35:30] Matt: Like, I, like, I lived in Williamstown. I play, still play footy in Williamstown. Like, I go down on the weekend by myself- Mm
[00:35:35] and I can run into, I don't know, 50 people. I g- I, like, going down to a supermarket, I, I will know someone, I'll run into someone.
[00:35:43] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:35:43] Matt: Like, that's... I, I, I'm very sheltered in that aspect.
[00:35:46] Hamish: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, in saying that though, I grew up, we, I moved to Park Orchards when I was two. Mm-hmm. I now live in Warrandyte, which is the suburb over.
[00:35:54] Mm-hmm. So I've spent most of my life, 41 years- [00:36:00] Yeah ...
[00:36:00] Matt: in, like, a small pocket of Victoria. Yeah. I, I think the other thing is I'm not afraid to ask for help. Like, I've, I have no problem- That is key ... I have no problem calling on someone, like, "Hey, mate, I, I need to have a chat." I've got, I, I- Absolutely
[00:36:13] Jess: key ... I learned
[00:36:13] Matt: to give up that form of, like, um-
[00:36:16] Jess: Doesn't mean you've failed
[00:36:17] what's the,
[00:36:17] Matt: what's, what... Yeah, no, what's the word I'm after here? Like, I'm never too proud to just be like, "Yeah, I'm not doing well." I, and I think that maybe is a by-product of my cousin taking her life, that I just was like- Mm ... and not, not that I have mental health issues or anything like that, it's just like, I'll just call someone.
[00:36:32] I don't really care if they don't wanna hear it and- Yeah ... yeah. Your, your
[00:36:36] Jess: inhibitions are low-
[00:36:38] Matt: Yeah ... I would say. Yeah, and the people I go to, I really respect their opinion. It's a good thing. So, um- Is that why you call me all the time? Yeah. Yeah. But, but it's true. Like, I, like, like, let's be honest, like, I will call you if I've, if I, that you, we have a, we, I need some advice.
[00:36:51] I've got no problem. And you m- I, I don't think there'd be a day
[00:36:53] Hamish: that goes by, except for the weekend, that we probably don't have a conversation. Mm-hmm. But then there might be text messages over the [00:37:00] weekend.
[00:37:00] Matt: Oh, so, yeah, I haven't told you this, so we're putting, we're, uh, bathing Noah, and my phone went off, and I was like, "Oh, it's on s- I've, I have a se- special setting at night to- That actually only filters my family.
[00:37:13] And for some fucking reason, you've somehow made it that filter And Nicole's... I'm like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "It's your boyfriend." So I want to know how you've got through it. That's like which one?
[00:37:24] Jess: He got through the family filter. I
[00:37:25] Matt: don't know how you got
[00:37:25] Hamish: through it, but 'cause I didn't. I just went, "Sorry."
[00:37:28] Maybe, maybe Claud, maybe Claud realizes that I'm like a part of your family. Ah. I
[00:37:31] Jess: think, I think your phone, uh, recognizes how many phone calls happen between both phones. Yeah, he must be. He must be. And it's like priority.
[00:37:37] Matt: But I think going back to your sort of original question on perception as well is, like, one thing that I've really realized recently is we have a voice, and that voice is, um, listened to by a lot of people.
[00:37:48] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:37:48] Matt: And that needs to be res- I've lear- I need to respect that. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I, I, I've only starting to understand that something I can say could be quite harmful to other people as well. [00:38:00] Like, I've called people out on social media recently for really dumb stuff, and probably been like, "Should I have approached it that way?"
[00:38:06] Hamish: Mm. Mm. So I mean, y- you're, you're probably in a sim- similar situation now, I think, with your podcast and you putting yourself out there. I think there is a res- level of responsibility now. Mm. Mm. And that actually doesn't burden me, but I s- definitely feel, uh, like a huge amount of imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm.
[00:38:28] Uh, you know, I am not... Like, we can see the numbers of how many download the podcast is. Mm. Like, I, you know, uh, we're- I can also see how many people are coming to the SBA events. Like, I know that what we're doing is having an impact, but I still get caught out and I still get caught off guard when I get a text message or a Instagram, like a DM or something- Mm-hmm
[00:38:48] saying, "Hey, I've just started listening to the podcast. I've gone back to the start, and thanks for sharing your, uh, story about your anxiety." Mm. Or little things like that, and I'm like, "Oh, fuck. That's right." Like- [00:39:00] I try to re- ... people are listening to what we're saying.
[00:39:02] Matt: I try to reply to everyone, so please don't just flood my DMs.
[00:39:05] But I, I actually, whether it's a like or something, or, or, or thanks for listening, I always-
[00:39:11] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:39:11] Matt: it's one thing I've just always wanted to try to do is at least, it might be two weeks later, I will always try to get back to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No matter what.
[00:39:18] Hamish: Although, The Mindful Builder Podcast - Has been a bit slow
[00:39:21] it is a bit slow sometimes, 'cause obviously we got our own social media that we run.
[00:39:25] Jess: I actually find that. If I re- if I reply to The Mindful Builder Podcast, like story, I don't get a reply. I've actually got to go directly to one of you. Yeah. If you want,
[00:39:31] Matt: yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've, or I'm actually trying to decrease the amount I actually spend on social media anyway.
[00:39:36] Hamish: But, but we've, we have tried to, and, and I guess by choice, we've tried to outsource The Mindful Builder Podcast marketing to Gian.
[00:39:43] Jess: Yeah.
[00:39:44] Hamish: Just so we can- Have a life
[00:39:46] Jess: You can only do so much, right? Yeah, I mean, like- Yeah ...
[00:39:48] Hamish: we're here for two days now, right? Yeah. So it's taking time out of our businesses and our family and stuff like that.
[00:39:53] Trying to then manage another social media page is- Mm ... challenging. Yeah. So we do apologize in advance. If, if you ever [00:40:00] wanna ask a question Try and get me or Matt
[00:40:03] Matt: We'll have a bot that does that pretty soon Or Jess.
[00:40:05] Hamish: Or go, go, or ask-
[00:40:06] Jess: Or ask Jess. And then I'll get onto them.
[00:40:07] Matt: Yeah, thank you. If it's a polite answer, it's Hamish.
[00:40:10] If it's a stubborn, blunt answer, it's me. I'll always reply and say Hamish at the end of it. I'm just gonna reply, "You're a fuckwit. No, Hamish." All
[00:40:19] Jess: right. Topic pivot. You mentioned, you, you alluded earlier to a painful client. Tell us a story about a cl- a really painful, like a client from hell.
[00:40:29] Matt: I've got two.
[00:40:32] Um, one of them I've spoken about on the podcast. They weren't painful, they were just, I lost control of the project, where... And that was during COVID and that, like, I had a lot of learnings from that. I had a painful client when I was, just before I actually started my own business, I was sort of project managing, site managing for someone, and the client was a...
[00:40:57] I don't want to get canceled for what I'm about to say. [00:41:00] He sucked. Um, parents were building something for him out in the backyard, spoiled little asshole. Um, there was one day where he didn't like the glass screen that we'd put in, like the shower screen. And we're like, "Well, that's what you paid for, that's what you've quoted, that's signed off."
[00:41:16] And then he, um, next day we come in, it's all scratched up. Oh, no. And we're like, "Did you do this?" He goes, "Don't know what you're talking about," and just smiled. And cl- you had no proof it was him. Oh. And then, yeah, there was just a lot of stuff that went down- Wow ... and I just, I... That wa- that was a point where I was like, "Do I want to be a builder?"
[00:41:33] 'Cause I was just like- Yeah. I, I'd say there... But having said that, my clients are awesome, though. We vet them. Like, we've, as much as, as much as people think that they pick to build with us, we ultimately pick if we want to build with them. It's,
[00:41:45] Hamish: it's both ways.
[00:41:46] Matt: Yeah. It, it, yeah, it's, it's both ways. It's, it's a, it's like any relationship.
[00:41:50] It's not a one-way highway.
[00:41:51] Hamish: Mm-hmm. I've had two really notable experiences with clients. [00:42:00] Both of them, I'm so glad that I had. Both of them almost sent me to the wall. One of them was with a previous business partner. Uh, but I was, wow, I was, I was young. Mm. Like, it would've been 15 years ago, and absolutely mismanaged.
[00:42:22] Like, if, if, if I look at, at both of these examples, yes, they were pains in the ass, but how I managed them was just wrong. Like, I always lead with emotion, not led, led with like, um, you know, a rational thinking. I didn't have s- any systems or processes around anything. We'd underquoted the job. I allowed too many things to happen.
[00:42:46] You know, one particular client, uh, we went away for a long weekend. It was a renovation extension. We rocked up on the Monday, and it was a, it was a long weekend, and we rocked up, and [00:43:00] they were living on site camping on site. And I'm like, "What the fuck is going on here?" And, like, Hamish right now would be like, "Get off, this is my building site."
[00:43:10] Yeah. But the Hamish back then is like, "Oh, I really wanna work with these guys, I really want this job," and like- Yeah ... pandering to them. You need the money. You need the money, yep. Mm-hmm. So I let it happen. The biggest clusterfuck- What happened? ... ever.
[00:43:23] Matt: Just you couldn't get your job done, they're complaining and...
[00:43:25] Hamish: Well, they would, used to walk around the site at night-time, right? And this, these are the clients that ended up, um, uh, they ended up getting a hold of a key somehow and locked me out. Oh. Yeah. I've never experienced- Towards the end of the job, yeah. A- and again, absolute mismanagement of- from my end. Like, they were pains in the ass.
[00:43:41] Matt: But were you slow? Were you delivering everything on time and on-
[00:43:44] Hamish: No, and look, there was d- there was defects. I'm not gonna say that we were innocent here. Like, there was defects in the project,
[00:43:49] Matt: but- Every project has defects ...
[00:43:50] Hamish: but every project has defects, and we didn't have the ability to go back and fix them.
[00:43:54] Like, they weren't letting us in the house to fix them. Anyway- This is another reason- I am so [00:44:00] grateful for those two experiences, though. This is
[00:44:02] Matt: another reason that, like, we never take, like, ABIC contracts, is I feel that when I have an ABIC contract, I'm not as close with the client because we-
[00:44:10] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:44:10] Matt: That's- A what
[00:44:11] Jess: contract? An
[00:44:12] Matt: ABI- an architectural contract. I feel that we don't have a, the relationship is still amazing, but it's just not as, um- 'Cause you, '
[00:44:19] Hamish: cause everything has to go back through the architect.
[00:44:20] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, so j- so we just don't end up getting, chit-chatting as much. Yeah. Which is, some- there's efficiencies within that.
[00:44:26] But the, the relationship, it's d- it's just not from saying it's 8 out of 10 to a 10 out of 10. Yep. Like, it's still, there's nothing that's gone wrong, it's just th- they're probably not coming over for dinner.
[00:44:37] Hamish: Well, our, our process now, these two clients that I've talked about before would never get through the first phase.
[00:44:43] Jess: Well, that was my next question. Do you have, like, a culling process? You do, don't you, for new leads? Oh, I reckon at least two people a week get culled. And I, I think, I think that's a really essential part of any business, is because you can waste so much money and time and effort and anxiety and stress on the wrong client.
[00:44:58] Hamish: Yeah. And
[00:44:58] Jess: this was, I was taught this [00:45:00] very early on. A business I worked for, nothing to do with the construction industry, I was straight out of uni, and the boss I worked for had a cull the wankers policy. Write that down. And that's, and he would, on purpose, um, not work for people who he deemed would be too stressful, waste of time, because they end up costing
[00:45:25] Hamish: you.
[00:45:26] Re- remind me to show you, if we've got time later on today, to show you our ACI agreement. Like, the, one of the fir- like, second or third lines in there says, uh, um, "At Sanctum Homes, we have a no dickhead policy." Yeah. Yep. And congratulations, you're not a dickhead. Brilliant. Uh, so we usually have this, like...
[00:45:45] And, and I'm us- like, if you're a client and you hear me say, "We have a no dickhead policy"- Uh, you know that you guys have passed. Because I'm usually not even getting to the point where people even have- You won't even get past the first phone call ... that we have, yeah. And look, some [00:46:00] people aren't gonna wanna work with me, and some people aren't gonna wanna work with Matt.
[00:46:02] That's fine. And that's fine. Mm. And I'm not gonna wanna work with some people either. Mm. And I think that is really healthy- Mm-hmm ... for any building project- Mm ... from both sides.
[00:46:12] Jess: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, definitely. Definitely. Uh, fixed price contracts.
[00:46:17] Hamish: Good conversation. Oof. Right now, in- Are
[00:46:19] Jess: they dead? Uh- No ...
[00:46:20] Hamish: I don't think they're dead.
[00:46:23] However-
[00:46:23] Matt: Banks need to agree to 'em ...
[00:46:25] Hamish: but, but, yeah, 'cause I think, I don't think they'll ever be dead because the banks need them. Mm-hmm. But I th- and you know, Matt and I had a chat about this on our weekly goss the other day, or was it a podcast?
[00:46:33] Matt: It was on the flight this morning. On the flight this morning, it was.
[00:46:36] Hamish: It's probably all four. You guys talk so much, it all just meshes into one. It's probably all four of them. Uh, we, particularly right now, so right now we are in April in 2026, and there is a war on in Iran, and prices are sort of a little bit fluctuating at the moment. So we are signing fixed price contracts.
[00:46:55] Mm-hmm. However, we are putting in more provisional sums and prime [00:47:00] cost items. Mm-hmm. And we are front-loading some of our payments more- Mm ... so we can then reconcile those provisional sums and prime cost items early. Yeah. And that might be that we're paying deposits- Mm-hmm ... so they can buy material. Yeah.
[00:47:14] Or we're getting the material and storing it at our- Yeah ... uh, shed at home.
[00:47:18] Jess: Yeah. So has your cashflow changed in that way? Like, are you paying out more earlier to secure- Yeah
[00:47:22] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:47:23] Hamish: but that's- ... to secure stuff? But that's why we- we're asking the clients for more
[00:47:25] Jess: money. Yeah. Yeah, so it's more upfront.
[00:47:26] Matt: We don't, I don't run a standard payment, method A payment ever.
[00:47:30] Jess: No.
[00:47:30] Matt: From the contract perspective. Yeah. I, cost plus, I haven't done one. I would, I'd be open to them with the right client.
[00:47:38] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:47:38] Matt: There's got to be a high level of trust. So we would run the same process of estimating all the way through as if it was a fixed contract, and then turn it into a cost plus. Well, I
[00:47:46] Hamish: think legally you've got to do that anyway.
[00:47:48] Matt: I, I just do, I think that- Yeah ... we'd want to make sure that we're, this is where we're at. Um, look, I'd probably, then they need to understand that, um, the hard thing is explaining if [00:48:00] defects, that's all billable hours, like tho- those items that you probably don't want to pay for still get paid for because they're not hidden in the cost anymore.
[00:48:07] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:48:07] Matt: Um, I, I, I think it's, a- again, like passive house, it's an education thing. So going to o- to mum and dad families that, like, "Yeah, you've got to, it's a cost plus, it could move up and down." Like...
[00:48:19] Hamish: Co- cost plus with the right builder, right designer, and right client is the perfect way to do it. It's the fairest way.
[00:48:24] Mm-hmm. Absolutely fairest way. But
[00:48:26] Matt: fairest is never the...
[00:48:30] Jess: Do clients go for it? Uh, look, we- There's too mu- they feel
[00:48:33] Matt: there's too much risk, and there's not enough- Yeah ... evidence in the past to suggest they work. We, uh- And they
[00:48:36] Jess: don't trust builders as a general sort of- Yep, which is, which is, which is fair Yeah,
[00:48:39] Matt: yeah
[00:48:40] Hamish: which is fair. Yeah, I understand that. Which is why I feel like, um- I mean, 100% of problems always come down to communication. Yeah. And it's about setting your clients up with the understanding and the knowledge of the reasons why you're suggesting something to contract on. And you gotta think about, if a builder goes bankrupt on your [00:49:00] project because of shit cashflow or prices go up, no one wins.
[00:49:03] Mm-hmm. You will end up paying a lot more than what your contract price is. So my advice to any homeowner who's listening to this is, like, if a builder suggests to you, "Hey, we're gonna put these provisional sums and prime costs in," and there is a legitimate reason why, listen to them. Mm-hmm. Because they're making those suggestions for the, for the project- Mm
[00:49:24] for the, for the betterment, I don't know if that- Better, yeah ... that's even a word of, of the project. Yeah. Um, and to make sure that, you know, your builder doesn't go bankrupt.
[00:49:31] Jess: Yeah.
[00:49:32] Matt: Yeah. That, yeah.
[00:49:34] Jess: All right, now I should ask you a building science question. Yeah, let's go for it. We've not touched on one single building science question today.
[00:49:39] Fine, that's good. Um- I'll just
[00:49:41] Hamish: defer all this to Matt.
[00:49:43] Jess: Cut it. Thanks.
[00:49:44] Hamish: I'll just defer all this to Matt.
[00:49:46] Jess: Um-
[00:49:47] Hamish: EMFs Okay, so
[00:49:48] Jess: shall we go- EMFs, EMFs Who's h- toe the... Hey, so I'm, yeah, I'm studying EMFs at the moment. I am on the fence, I am open and I am curious. And that's the way it's gonna stay for now. [00:50:00] Um- What is, who's got the lowest blow door test score?
[00:50:06] Matt: Matt.
[00:50:07] Jess: Okay, that was easy. What was it? .
[00:50:09] Matt: 24 on a very- Is it your house? Yeah, on a very tight volume too.
[00:50:13] Hamish: Your house?
[00:50:13] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I think it only had 300 and something cubic meters of air move through.
[00:50:16] Hamish: Yeah. That's small. I don't know if I've ever gotten a three. You what, what? I don't know if I've ever gotten under three.
[00:50:21] Matt: Our average is about .34. J- I don't know why, it literally always is .34. I, I don't ask why. I walk in four projects in a row with just the same number. Wow.
[00:50:29] Hamish: We, we're consistently in the three, uh, like high threes. Mm-hmm. But I don't think we've ever... Maybe we've- High, we've still got one ... maybe we've got, maybe we've got one blow a door, but it was, uh, like in the twos, but it was high twos and it might have been, like pre-plaster or something.
[00:50:44] And then our final result was like- Yeah ... .35 or something like that.
[00:50:48] Matt: But- I don't think I'll beat my house ever. It's stupid. I don't know, you don't need to get that airtight.
[00:50:53] Jess: No. No. You
[00:50:53] Matt: don't. No,
[00:50:55] Jess: no. And what about failures? Like, what about building science failures? Have you had, [00:51:00] um, you know, a condensation issue that you didn't expect?
[00:51:05] Matt: Is this pre or post building science career?
[00:51:08] Jess: Probably pre. Like, what's the, what's the- I had a, I had
[00:51:10] Matt: a roof leak ... what's your
[00:51:11] Jess: biggest, like, defect or probably failure? Oh, ac-
[00:51:13] Matt: oh, I haven't had ma- I've actually haven't had any crazy, crazy defects, but we had one, this is a weird one actually, which I know why it was happening.
[00:51:21] Um, there was just a little bit of mold in certain spots around the exhaust fan in the, in the bathroom on, on a house. It was upstairs. It had 2.4 ceiling height. Um, and we had an e- a, a standard exhaust fan that went straight up through the roof and outside. Like, so very sh- like 300 ml of- Space to move outside.
[00:51:43] Mm-hmm. What we would find is this ring of, uh, of mold. And what I had worked out is because it was an aluminum tube that went through the roof, it was actually condensating. Yeah. Yeah. And because it was a flat roof, where it taped, [00:52:00] for some reason, it, the, the, the, well, like, I don't know why it was condensating, but the metal was condensating, and it just had found its way onto the plaster, even through the insulation, and was dripping.
[00:52:11] So that was a re- Back then, if I didn't know what I knew, I would have never have worked it out. But that's pretty much nearly as bad as I've had it. I wonder
[00:52:19] Jess: if that's gonna start happening now with the exhaust fans having to be ducted to outside. We're having- I think the
[00:52:24] Matt: client, well, the client wasn't running it.
[00:52:25] They're like, "Oh, we're gonna turn it on if we want to." I'm like, "Well, that's also a part of the problem." But- Okay ... I don't, we, if we ever just do an exhaust fan now, we have it on a timer switch, which I now think is part of the code anyway.
[00:52:34] Hamish: Mm-hmm. Just re- We've just, we literally just- Interesting ... finished a rectification where, um, we, we had a shower base fail, and we think it was an old mud brick house.
[00:52:46] Jess: So that was your, your job? One of our, yeah, yeah,
[00:52:48] Hamish: yeah. Yeah. But it was a job that we, we picked up. Yeah, can, won't talk about the details too much, but yeah, not a normally job we'd do. Yeah. But I, I suspect it was water coming in from the outside. It was an old [00:53:00] mud brick home, and the drainage was shit. But what it did do, it, it exposed something that we did, which, which, you know, if I was to do it again, it was to code, but I wouldn't do it again.
[00:53:10] Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, we, we got in there, we fixed a shower base, uh, and we owned that part of it. Said, "Look, I think this is where it's coming from. I think this is where the water's coming from. I've got absolutely no way of proving it. I don't think the shower base has failed. But what we're gonna do is we're gonna fix this, but any works outside that we're gonna rectify will have to be, we'll have to charge you for."
[00:53:30] Mm-hmm. So I thought that was a fair and equitable way of treating it. Mm-hmm. So- Client was happy with that? Yeah. They seemed pretty happy. Yeah. Yeah. We've also got a roof leak on a, on a, on a, um, a roof leak. A, we've got a deck over a, um, habitable space with, and the deck's on pedestals. Yeah. And there's this tiny leak.
[00:53:53] You can't find it? Uh, we think we know where it is now. Uh, it's nine years on. Mm. So nine years on.
[00:53:59] Matt: Can, can you [00:54:00] pressur- pressurize the house with a blower door test, put some soapy water and see if it bubbles from the outside?
[00:54:05] Hamish: Oh, mate, this, we're talking about a project I did nine years ago. I know, but the
[00:54:08] Matt: pressure would push the bubbles, the foam in the corner where the air was getting through.
[00:54:11] Yeah. Look, we- Depends on
[00:54:12] Hamish: where it's coming through ... we feel, no, we, we, we're pretty sure we've isolated where it is. Yeah. And, and, and it's fine. Look, I, the, it's a new owner of a, of a home that we've built. Mm. And he's awesome. Mm-hmm. The past client's unreal. Like- And we- we're, we're, we're showing up and we're, we've- Rooftop decks, man.
[00:54:29] Oh ... we- we've identified where it is, and it's a small section of the waterproofing which we think might ha- just over time has just degraded. Mm-hmm. And it's on certain weather events where the water gets in, and it's just a small drip. Lucky there's no plaster that's being impacted. Mm. It's a timber lined ceiling above it.
[00:54:47] Matt: See water damage.
[00:54:49] Hamish: Uh, we- so you can see a drip. Oh. You can see a drip. Like, so, so we- we- we're, we're pretty confident we know where that is. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, and I'd say to this guy, ironically now, 'cause we're building a home just [00:55:00] down the other way. Mm. I'm like, "Even if water was getting through the cladding there now, it's gonna hit the, the Hero on the sips- Yeah
[00:55:08] it's, it's got- The drain is gonna save you. Oh, you get a... There's always one rain event before you put the roof
[00:55:11] Matt: on and
[00:55:12] Hamish: test it. Dra- yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so look, I think, um, yeah, I think we've been reasonably lucky.
[00:55:16] Jess: Yeah.
[00:55:17] Hamish: Um, but yeah, there's a lot of risk as a builder.
[00:55:21] Jess: Yeah, there is. There is. So, and look,
[00:55:22] Hamish: if, if, if you're a builder, new builder listening to this, and y- if you don't give a shit about Passive House, fine.
[00:55:29] But if you don't completely wrap your building- Mm ... top to bottom in a really good membrane and tape all the joins, you are asking for trouble.
[00:55:38] Matt: People are out- And insurance is now in, is consumer first coming up. Yeah. So they don't even have to go to you to fix a defect. They can just go to the building authority and they'll make you fix it.
[00:55:46] So-
[00:55:46] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:55:47] Matt: has there ever been a better time to put Pro Clima on your roof rather than that other crap, silver- And do you refer- ... foil-based ...
[00:55:53] Hamish: someone who pr- provides Pro Clima? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Wow. Pro Clima Sean. I mean, it's not, I'm, I'm
[00:55:57] Matt: not just saying that to please Pro Clima, by the way. Yeah. No, no. I actually think, like, [00:56:00] it's the best insurance policy you can have.
[00:56:01] Hamish: Totally. Yeah, agree. Totally.
[00:56:02] Matt: Like, period. Like, it's, yeah.
[00:56:04] Hamish: Have you got any other questions? These are good questions.
[00:56:05] Jess: Um, no, I'm done with my questions. Do you have any for me?
[00:56:09] Matt: I did have one, and now I can't remember what it was. 'Cause I
[00:56:12] Jess: am the interviewee today. Don't know if you guys remember.
[00:56:15] Matt: Yeah, you're...
[00:56:16] This is Je- this is Jess from The Mindful Builder Podcast. Well, I've got one for you. What's your, what, what's something that builders do that really annoys you?
[00:56:23] Jess: Oh, um- Where do I
[00:56:25] Matt: start? We're already an hour in, so this is another of Anna's podcast.
[00:56:30] Jess: Yeah, we've been chatting a while. Um, something that builders do that annoys me.
[00:56:37] I think... I actually can't think of anything. I work in such a good pocket of the industry. Every builder that comes to me is so open to, like, they're ready. They wanna, they wanna learn. They're coming to learn. Yeah. Um, they wanna know. Annoying? Um, uh- All right,
[00:56:58] Matt: let me follow up with that question. Yeah, I
[00:56:59] Jess: couldn't [00:57:00] give you anything.
[00:57:00] Right now I'm- What, what's- I'm looking for
[00:57:01] Matt: something ... what's something that architects then do that annoy you?
[00:57:05] Jess: Not show interest. Yeah. I'm, I'm finding so much more buy-in from builders than I am from architects. Architects are very, in my experience, um, very focused on their, on their drawings and their page, and they're not- I'm not finding as much buy-in from architects in the building science detailing side of things as I am from builders.
[00:57:27] Yeah. Builders wanna know how to make sure that their product is going to be dry and safe. Yeah. I think perhaps architects are that one step removed from the actual building site. Um, some of them are, not all of them, but some of them are, and they're not, um, they're not as invested in understanding- There's a whole-
[00:57:44] the science ...
[00:57:44] Hamish: podcast episode on just this topic. And I, and I'm, I'm not gonna go on the record as saying it's the architect's fault. Mm. No. I think it's a failure in their teaching.
[00:57:55] Jess: Yeah. Uh, it, it, it- You know? Ah ... it definitely needs to be introduced in the very- [00:58:00] Ah ... beginning. No, but like- As soon as you go- We worked, we worked it out
[00:58:02] to a page.
[00:58:03] Matt: We didn't get taught about it. It's on you to learn. Yeah. But, yeah, but, yeah. There's enough information out there.
[00:58:07] Hamish: Yeah. I don't,
[00:58:07] Matt: I don't- There is, Matt ... not just builders, not just architects, but builders, building surveyors, engineers, energy consultants. Yeah.
[00:58:13] Hamish: The, the biggest-
[00:58:13] Matt: Everyone, tradies ... the
[00:58:14] Hamish: biggest difference is we're the, we're the end, we're, we deliver the end product.
[00:58:17] Yeah. So we're exposed- And you see the
[00:58:18] Jess: failures ... we
[00:58:19] Hamish: see the failures. Yeah. I think we've got, we're more at the coalface of the, the failures.
[00:58:23] Matt: Mm-hmm. Put retention on architects then. That would solve the problem. Retention. Their poor, their, their poor detailing. If it- Yeah. The, the, the, the- That's a joke, by the way
[00:58:30] there needs to be
[00:58:30] Hamish: some kind of mechanism somewhere around... Because if, if we build a house to plan, we're still the expert that's executing that detail on site, and it's our responsibility to say- Yeah ... "This is not gonna work." I'm having that
[00:58:43] Matt: problem right now. Yeah.
[00:58:45] Jess: And you guys can change a detail based on what you think and feel and see.
[00:58:48] Matt: No, we just can't. No. Well- Because if we change a detail- ... you don't, you d- ... it's not per the drawings- Okay ... and we could get in trouble for not following the drawings. And th-
[00:58:54] Hamish: okay. Th- this, th- a lot of this stuff should and could and has and does and, you know, in our [00:59:00] business, get resolved in design.
[00:59:03] Matt: What'd you say before?
[00:59:04] On the, you said on the plane today, and you said it in the podcast, 100% of problems are communication issues. 100% are problems with communication.
[00:59:09] Jess: So I interviewed Steve Baczek on my podcast the other day. Yeah. You know who Steve Baczek is? Yeah,
[00:59:13] Hamish: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:14] Jess: Matt Risinger's co- co-star- Yeah, yeah ... on Bu- Build Science.
[00:59:17] So he's gonna be released- Hang on. St-
[00:59:18] Hamish: hey, Steve, Steve, if you're listening to this, 'cause I know you do, we've been asking you for so long to come on our podcast, and you've said yes. So why are you saying yes to Jess and not us first?
[00:59:27] Jess: Maybe I'm more annoying, and I'm, you know-
[00:59:29] Hamish: Maybe ...
[00:59:29] Jess: harassed him more. I don't know.
[00:59:31] But that's gonna, I'm gonna release that in a few weeks. But what he does that I don't think a lot of other architects do- I know what you're about to say ... is he spends tons of time on site. Is that what you thought I was gonna say?
[00:59:40] Matt: No, something similar, but keep going.
[00:59:42] Jess: He spent, he has spent his whole... I mean, he got, he got a job at Building Science Corp.
[00:59:46] as one of his very first jobs, so, like, massive win there, um, learning from the best building scientists in America. But he has made it a point to go on site, have a look at what's actually being built, and then refine his [01:00:00] details as per what he's learning on site- Yeah ... from the builders. And- He will learn from the trades.
[01:00:03] He'll learn from the roofers. He'll learn from the, everyone he, he meets and improve. And that, that communication piece is there for him. Yeah.
[01:00:10] Matt: For architects say, "Well, we don't get paid for that."
[01:00:13] Jess: He runs his own company, so maybe that's a decision that he would make Yeah, but sometimes, sometimes
[01:00:16] Matt: you don't get
[01:00:17] Hamish: paid for it, but it's worth it I'll, I'll give credit where credit's due.
[01:00:18] Like, um, Sven from Maxi Design I think is really responsive to, uh, you know, our feedback. Mm-hmm. And he's actively got his team on our site- Mm-hmm ... to do some work experience. Mm-hmm.
[01:00:30] Matt: Which I think is really great. Well, what's, to me is what's one day on site learning how to install windows. So it's guarantee the time that you detail windows on the next 15 plans, you're gonna cut- Yeah, yeah
[01:00:38] that time in a quarter.
[01:00:39] Jess: He's still refining his details 37 years into his career. Yeah.
[01:00:42] Matt: Yeah. You know? It's- He m- yeah, he made a really good point on one of his podcasts recently, and I love it, is that he said, "Don't go draw the detail that everyone knows how to draw. Don't go draw- Yeah ... your back dam on your window.
[01:00:53] Go draw the detail that hasn't been done yet, that's typical, because that's the detail that we need to solve."
[01:00:58] Hamish: Yeah.
[01:00:59] Matt: Don't draw, [01:01:00] don't draw the bear at a joist connection. Everyone knows that one.
[01:01:02] Hamish: Yeah.
[01:01:03] Matt: Go, go, go find a detail that's really tricky and start there, so... Um, we do have a final segment called the Mindful Moment, sponsored by MEGT, Australia's largest apprenticeship experts.
[01:01:17] What's on my list today? Um, I have one here. It, it's probably leadership 101 for apprentices, and I've just had a new first-year apprentice start, and so my other two apprentices are both a second and third year. Um, the advice I kind of gave them the other day was that treat them, yes, for the first time you might have a little bit of power on site, and I use the term power very loosely, but treat them better than the way that you were treated.
[01:01:47] Even if you were treated as a... perfectly, treat them even better. Because I think we have a, a system at the moment that's failing, where apprentices, some of them are still not getting treated well, but if we have a system that every time it gets better slightly, [01:02:00] like that 1% incremental change, we're gonna have a better system in, say, 15, 20 years.
[01:02:05] It goes to what we talked about earlier in this podcast about the, the long-term approach and the long-term view. So if you're an apprentice out there listening, or actually really anyone, this is really... I don't know why I have to explain this, but treat people well. And treat someone better than you've been treated.
[01:02:20] Hamish: And, and I'll just add one more thing to that. If you're a first-year apprentice, don't take your job for granted.
[01:02:26] Matt: Because you're disposable and we'll find one, someone else.
[01:02:29] Hamish: I did not say that. Matt said that. I did not say that. I definitely did not say that. I think that if we- Sorry ... if we are gonna treat our apprentices better- I think that they should certainly not take that-
[01:02:42] Matt: No, no, no.
[01:02:43] And I mean, I mean this like from a fun, like a good space. Like just, just don't yell at them. Like if you haven't been yelled at, don't yell at them. Like you should forever want that person to be better than hopefully they treat someone better than when it's their turn. Did you ever have the privilege of having a hammer thrown at you?
[01:02:59] Oh, I had [01:03:00] worse than that. I definitely had
[01:03:02] Hamish: it.
[01:03:03] Matt: Um, anyway, Jess, thanks for coming on and interviewing us. We've got to, um- That was a good chat. It was fun. I like these ask us anything questions. Next time, make them
[01:03:11] Jess: spicier. Thanks
[01:03:13] Matt: for having me. Thank you. Thanks,
[01:03:15] Jess.