How to stop working in your business
“Version one is better than version none.” Our guest on the podcast, James Brown meant it in the most practical way possible. Version one of a system in your building business is better than no system at all. Not the perfect process. Not the colour-coded spreadsheet you will definitely build “when things slow down”. Just something written down that gets the ball rolling. Because once a basic system exists, you can use it, test it, hand it to someone else, and improve it. But if you keep waiting for time, clarity, or the perfect setup, you stay stuck doing everything from memory and putting out fires forever.
Why We Keep Getting Stuck in the Business
We have both had seasons where it feels like the business owns you. You are quoting at night, solving problems all day, and trying to remember what you promised whom, and when. The operational side quietly becomes a second full-time job. James runs Builders Escape and spends his time helping business owners stop living inside their inbox, their phone, and their own head. Not by working harder. By building systems that make the business easier to run.
Systems Are Not Fancy. They Are Visible
One of the best parts of this conversation is how James strips systemisation back to something simple. You probably already have systems. They are just stuck in your head. Or living in a random text message. Or buried in the way one person on your team does things. The goal is to make those systems visible - make the invisible, visible. They should be documented and easy to follow. Not to create a corporate manual. Just to get the basics out of your brain and into something your team can actually use.
Start With the Client Flow
James talks about mapping the client journey from first enquiry to handover. That is where the cracks show up. Missed steps. Repeated conversations. Decisions that get made twice. Tasks that rely on one person remembering. Once you can see the flow, you can start tightening it. And you do not need the perfect software to start. James is big on being tool-agnostic. The system should work even if you change platforms later.
The Real Win Is Time and Headspace
This is not about becoming a robot. It is about getting your time back. Systems help you protect margins, reduce mistakes, onboard new team members faster, and stop reinventing the wheel every week. And yes, we also talk about AI. James’ take is simple. AI only helps if your processes are clear. If your business is chaos, AI just helps you do chaos faster.
If you are waiting until you have time to systemise, you will be waiting forever. Start with version one. Make it visible. Make it usable. Improve it as you go. That is the whole Builders Escape mindset. Build the business like you build a house. One step at a time, with a plan that does not rely on you being everywhere at once.
LINKS:
Builders Escape: https://www.biztechguru.com.au/builders-escape
Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima
MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt
CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Hamish: Have you ever wondered what it means to build with intention? Well, I'm Hamish.
[00:00:06] Matthew: And I'm Matt, and we are dedicated to pushing boundaries and building better homes.
[00:00:11] Hamish: We welcome you to join us on the Mindful Builder Podcast, where we're committed to driving positive change in the building industry, by surrounding you with experts in their field and being open about our lives as builders.
[00:00:22] Matthew: Join us on this mindful journey of construction by subscribing to the Mindful Podcast.
[00:00:33] Hamish, each episode, we kind of sound a form to everyone. Yep. And gives a bit of a background on who we've got coming on the podcast. Now, I have purposely not read yours. And for a specific reason, the reason behind my why right now is I'm now starting systems. Okay. You don't know this, but one of my team is gonna be signed up to do the same thing that Jan's doing.
[00:00:51] James: Cool. Cool.
[00:00:51] Matthew: And I'm gonna ask you the questions that most people are gonna probably ask. I wanna come in quite naive. Cool. Love it. I'm gonna ask you questions probably I already know the answer to, but I'm gonna push [00:01:00] and poke the bear a little bit. Now Hamish was then are like, why? Go read it. But we had Dave on the podcast, Dave Jennings from Systemology.
[00:01:08] If you haven't read the books, amazing. And he said he started a podcast so he could sit down people on a couch and chat to them and pick their brain to practically get free advice so you could understand more.
[00:01:20] James: I remember that,
[00:01:20] Matthew: yes. Yeah. So I'm semi taking Dave's, uh, leave out Dave's book right here now.
[00:01:26] I'm not seeking free advice, but I, I wanted to come in as super open-minded on, on everything we're about to talk about. But Hamish, I actually think you're better placed right now to introduce James because you've been working with him.
[00:01:39] Hamish: Yeah. So, well, firstly, we're coming from our, uh, Proclima Studio Built to Last, Built to Last Studios.
[00:01:45] Uh, we're currently sitting in Jackson from Induro Builders display home here in Mount Barker. And ClimateShore
[00:01:52] Matthew: that, things
[00:01:52] Hamish: like- And ClimateShore, yep. Certified Passive House, first certified passive house, uh, display home in Australia. Now, James, [00:02:00] you and I go way back, probably a couple of years ago. So we, we actually did a piece, uh, in 2023, 2024, uh, around systemology after I, or systemization, after I'd read the book systemology.
[00:02:11] James: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:02:12] Hamish: Um, James, w- why would we get you on here today? And, and what is the stuff that you're doing, why is it so important for any business?
[00:02:21] James: So I think I might link this back to why I do what I do-
[00:02:25] Hamish: Yep. ...
[00:02:25] James: and lead the conversation from there, which is I let, like to help people to not work in their business.
[00:02:30] Hamish: Yep.
[00:02:31] James: Um, and that's the in versus the on part. Like everyone's heard the whole in versus on conversation. You don't need to sort of say that again. But for me, it's about how can you have your business as this vehicle to achieve what you want to in life. And I was chatting with a team member earlier today about this.
[00:02:50] When you run a business, you can't necessarily separate the person from the business. They are the same thing for most people's business lives. [00:03:00] And to get to the point that you can actually have the business as this separate entity that when it can actually take on a life of its own separate from you, that's when you can do beautiful things because you have freedom and you have income that doesn't depend on your time involvement.
[00:03:13] And that's what I love helping people with.
[00:03:15] Matthew: And systems aren't just for builders.
[00:03:18] James: No. I, I don't wanna rattle off the different laundry list of, you know, different industry- Give me some
[00:03:23] Matthew: weird ones.
[00:03:24] James: Uh, oh, multi-level marketing company from Finland.
[00:03:28] Matthew: Yeah, okay.
[00:03:29] James: That was actually really quite challenging. Yeah.
[00:03:31] Um, uh, architects, I know they're a bit of a different breed, so, you know- So
[00:03:34] Matthew: you're saying architects are challenging.
[00:03:37] James: No, no. So, um- You said, uh- Uh, outsourcing companies, um, uh, immigration lawyers, um- I thought
[00:03:45] Matthew: you were gonna say,
[00:03:45] James: like, something
[00:03:46] Matthew: really
[00:03:46] James: weird, like a strippers or something. So people who train people to sing.
[00:03:50] Matthew: Yeah, okay.
[00:03:50] James: Um, and builders and everything between. Yeah.
[00:03:53] Matthew: So really
[00:03:53] Hamish: there's no- What's, what's, what's really important about what you're talking about there is how important systems are, like, agnostic to the kind of business [00:04:00] that you're talking to. Yeah. Like systems are so important. And, and I think what's really interesting about my journey is we did this piece a couple of years ago-
[00:04:07] James: mm-hmm.
[00:04:08] Hamish: and true to Hamish form, like, it takes a while for things to drop for me. Mm-hmm. And really, I guess I've learned this bit here. I'm gonna go to my, about my business for a little bit and then I'm like, fuck, hang on. Now all this stuff makes a lot, so much sense. And I feel now, I know, I know we're gonna start talking about system champion and all that kind of stuff soon, but it took me a while to get that person.
[00:04:28] Mm-hmm. But now, mate, the things that we're doing in our business, I'm so excited about it, and I am literally turning into that systems nerd.
[00:04:35] James: So talking about it is business agnostic, like, it doesn't matter the business. Systems can work to achieve a great result in your business. Um, the interesting thing is it's also software agnostic.
[00:04:46] Hamish: Yes.
[00:04:46] James: Like, it's not about, "Oh, well, we're using ClickUps, that's different because we use this ... " No, it's not about that at all. Um, I say that, you know, bit tongue in cheek that you can do the whole thing on pen and paper. If you're really, really passionate about doing that- Yeah. ... [00:05:00] don't advise it. But for me, it's about, um, looking at your business.
[00:05:04] I, I'm a big fan of EOS, right? Yeah. On entrepreneurial operating system, um, and ignoring anything about that, I love the metaphor. They go, every business is like a, a PC computer or a Mac computer or whatever it might be. It's gotta have an operating system and then you install whatever apps you need to do for your business.
[00:05:22] Like you just plug them in on top. Yeah. I love that approach that you've gotta look at your business as the same type of thing whether you're a florist, you know, in Florida or, you know, carpenter in Canberra. Like, you know, your business is the same at its core that you've got people, you need to make money, all these type of things.
[00:05:37] Matthew: So I'm myself not good at following a process. Okay. I like to break shit- Yeah. ... and just go for it. Mm-hmm. I've always ... I never really had to have a process because it was me. Mm-hmm. I understand that's not sustainable long-term.
[00:05:51] Hamish: It's not scalable either.
[00:05:52] Matthew: Yeah, yeah, 100%. So I, I, I recognize all that. And my biggest fear right now is I'm not gonna be able to continue to break shit.
[00:05:59] James: Okay. So I [00:06:00] wanna challenge you.
[00:06:00] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:06:01] James: I bet you follow processes all day, every day. All day, every day. So tell me, your eyes open- I
[00:06:11] Matthew: know I do.
[00:06:11] James: Okay. Let's say even sitting in here, right? You have a whole bunch of things that you did when we sat down and before we started our conversation.
[00:06:19] Matthew: Yeah, so I turn on all three cameras and check it's red.
[00:06:21] James: Right. Okay. Same thing when you get up in the morning, right? You have the same type of thing. You'll have a, a bit of a routine that you might do. And I'm not saying it never differs.
[00:06:29] Matthew: Yeah,
[00:06:29] James: yeah. And this is actually the, the core thing is processes can differ. Like having ... What, what is, what is the system?
[00:06:36] Let's start with what is the system, right? Because that can go any, like, it's a bit of a spectrum, right? You can have, um, a mate of mine, he has been work- he was a submariner for 20 years, he builds weapons defense training, right? They build systems.
[00:06:51] Matthew: I was gonna say that's to me, he's like-
[00:06:52] James: That's-
[00:06:52] Matthew: NASA shit.
[00:06:53] James: Right. And on the complete other end of the spectrum is a [00:07:00] four-page laminated with a piece of string and a whiteboard marker and tick box that you can just rub off with your hand. That is also a system. So what is a system? It's horses of courses is what you need it to be for that particular situation.
[00:07:12] Now, the thing that most people don't have is they don't have the systems written down. Okay. Your systems aren't written down, but you have a thousand systems that you use in your workplace.
[00:07:22] Matthew: And you help uncover them.
[00:07:23] James: Hmm?
[00:07:23] Matthew: And you help uncover them.
[00:07:25] James: One of the, the little catchphrases from Dave that I love, make the invisible visible.
[00:07:30] Hamish: Yep.
[00:07:31] James: And I know that that goes into passive house space as well. This is, a lot of the stuff that you talk about is invisible. Yeah.
[00:07:37] Hamish: Yeah. And you, you talk about systems and process and let's also put SOP there. They're kind of all one of the same, aren't they?
[00:07:43] James: Yeah. Recipe, formula, instructions,
[00:07:46] Hamish: you
[00:07:46] James: know.
[00:07:46] Hamish: So whatever you, whatever you call them, it's something that you is, that exists in your business that's done the same way often, you know, or, you know, multiple times throughout the year
[00:07:59] James: [00:08:00] that- With, without trying to invoke James Clear, but I'm a massive fan of Atomic Habits.
[00:08:03] Hamish: Yep, yep.
[00:08:03] James: It's a way that you've worked out how to solve a problem that's repeatable.
[00:08:09] Matthew: Can you oversystemize something?
[00:08:12] James: Can you oversystemize it? Yes. I, if I look at my last business, right, which is a motel, um, when I started my journey of systemizing, I oversystemized that business. That business, um, when I sold it probably had 1,200 systems, arguably too many systems.
[00:08:31] Um, but the, the problem was there was too many and I built them badly. So, and I, that's, that's why I'm so passionate about doing it the right way because I built monsters- Yeah. ... absolute monsters that would break easily were challenging, if not impossible to follow. And not
[00:08:48] Matthew: fluid.
[00:08:49] James: Yeah. And the thing is, they were built for the way I designed, like, the, the way I had to get them out of my head, that was how I built them.
[00:08:57] There was no rhyme, there was no reason ... [00:09:00] It's like when you go and ask a team member to go systemize, you go, "Oh, just sit down there and just write down what you do. "
[00:09:05] Matthew: Give Kayla's listening right now.
[00:09:07] James: Right, right. That's
[00:09:08] Matthew: me.
[00:09:09] James: And that's, like, it's, like, I, like, I'm involved in, like, coaching my daughter's netball team.
[00:09:14] I am a well-wishing dad, right? When you try and systemize your business that, that, uh, that way, you are a well-wishing boss. It's like, I'm trying to make systems, but I've got no idea, no idea how to do it.
[00:09:25] Matthew: And, and, and, uh, the biggest, the most important aha moment where I realized that h- and for me is I thought I had to write the system.
[00:09:35] Yeah. And that's probably the, the biggest moment of, like, ah, okay, cool. Like, someone else can do this. That's cool. And that's probably why I never wanted to implement systems because I was like, I just don't have time.
[00:09:47] James: Yep.
[00:09:48] Matthew: And, and, but I've, after reading those books, I'm like, okay, cool. It, it's actually, I'm the worst person to have the system to write it.
[00:09:55] James: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but this is, like, it's, yes, you've got no time to do systemizing [00:10:00] and there's massive benefits to not you- Yeah. ... being the person that makes them as well. But think about all the things in business that you don't have time for,
[00:10:07] Matthew: right?
[00:10:08] James: There is a massive list of all the things like, oh, I should be doing more, I should be doing some PR for my business, and I should be doing that, and we really need to polish it.
[00:10:17] You know, that's what business is about, right? Yeah. And this is, importantly, this is a really leveraged thing, a leveraged asset that you can create.
[00:10:28] Hamish: Like, it's interesting you brought up the EOS stuff before, because, you know, in my mind, because we're currently going through a whole EOS implementation thing as well, you know, you know, I don't, I, I don't like doing just one, one, one thing at a time.
[00:10:41] Uh, but we're, we've actually got someone working in the business for two or three hours a week at the moment, which has been really good. Um, whether it's EOS, whether it's systemology, or whether it's something else, uh, uh, like, I don't know what it is, whether it's the, what, what-
[00:10:54] Matthew: I'm, I'm about to, I'm starting to really go deep in the 12-week year.
[00:10:59] Hamish: Yeah, okay. So [00:11:00] whatever it is, all of this sets up a framework for your business.
[00:11:03] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:11:04] Hamish: And what I'm realizing now is how important and how powerful that is because everything in your business just becomes predictable. And when things are predictable in your business, it actually frees you up.
[00:11:13] Matthew: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:14] Hamish: Because you're not thinking, "Oh, shit, what's next? What next?" You're just like, "Where are we in that particular process?" So where are
[00:11:19] Matthew: we over there? And from people like me and you, probably like shiny new toys that play with, that's why, like, uh, to me, this is gonna help me from being distracted.
[00:11:28] Hamish: Well, I mean, if we just sit on the EOS thing for a second, uh, the way that they, that they look at their structure, you've got the, um, you've got the visionary on the, vi- visionary on the top, then you got the integrator and then you've got this sort of flat line level of management underneath it.
[00:11:42] Now you and I would 100% sit- Visionary. ... in that visionary role.
[00:11:46] James: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:47] Hamish: And I'd say 110% of business owners would sit in that visionary role, unless you're a really unique kind of-
[00:11:55] James: I, I don't.
[00:11:56] Hamish: Yeah,
[00:11:57] James: you do. I don't, I, I can play both sides.
[00:11:59] Hamish: Interesting. [00:12:00]
[00:12:00] James: Well, I feel like you- It depends in what type of thing, whether
[00:12:03] If I'm really passionate about it, I can sit in that visionary space, but whereas if I'm in the, I really need this thing because the business needs it, then I will just grind and do the implementer side of things.
[00:12:17] Hamish: Yeah. See, I've been grinding over the last few weeks working really closely with Jan to, to, to work through a whole bunch, like doing a whole bunch of extractions- mm-hmm.
[00:12:25] which we could talk about in a second, uh, and her role in my business now is the systems champion. Uh, I would say that this, this is sort of s- me sitting in that sort of integrated role, but I'm really passionate about it- mm-hmm. ... so I can get engaged with it. Yep. But if we, but, but it, in my mind, it has like a finite time period- Yes.
[00:12:43] because in my two weeks time, I'm probably gonna get bored of it.
[00:12:45] Matthew: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:46] Hamish: Whereas I feel like an integrator would just froth this stuff and just- That's
[00:12:50] Matthew: why I worry about systems to me, is it new and shiny because it's like, I understand, I understand the ultimate-
[00:12:56] Hamish: Yeah, but it, I, like, I, and I'm gonna challenge that for one second because even if you're [00:13:00] just going through and systemize a part of your business, like the whole, the rest of the business is gonna benefit.
[00:13:04] And you can, you can, I don't know, and this is probably not speaking to how you would suggest that we do it, but you, that's set up now. Go away for a second and do something else- Yeah. ... and chase something shiny and then come back and do the next part. Yeah. And then do the next part. Like, it doesn't all have to be-
[00:13:18] James: I'm just saying.
[00:13:19] But it's, it, it's about trying to, like, pour a cast and actually set that and go, "Okay, that's good. I'll leave it like that. " And one of the things I often talk about when I talk about this, this progress that, on this journey from no systems to, like, runs like a Swiss watch is there's a, a clunky time, um, which we call s- um, the stationary stage, which is it feels like that you have, things are stable in your business.
[00:13:46] Everything is starting to happen without you not necessarily asking and or explaining everything in a granular level. Which
[00:13:52] Matthew: is literally me right now.
[00:13:53] James: Right? But nothing's really working at the level that you want it. And so what [00:14:00] typically most business owners do, and this is me, is I'll go and go hardcore into, I'm gonna really polish operations.
[00:14:08] I'm gonna make sure the way that we do the thing for the customer is, like, top-notch, go heavy into that so that I can turn around and ramp up sales and marketing, right? I've gotta get that thing working well before I invest in actually starting to bring more people into the business. And you turn around and start working on sales and marketing after focusing on the, the operations, the delivery side of things, and you go, "Hang on, I look backed after three or four months and everything's the same way it used to be.
[00:14:35] Everything's just reverted back. And you got to people and go, "Hang on, we agree we all sat down. I was in the room, it was a Tuesday, it was 4:00 PM, and we agree that we're gonna do this. " And three or four months later, I was like, "Yeah, nah, but no, it just, that's because it wasn't captured. It wasn't documented that this is what we all are agreeing that we're gonna do.
[00:14:57] And one of the things, like, I, I think [00:15:00] I talked with Gianna about, um, in terms of when you try and optimize a process, because this is our favorite thing, is to optimize a process, right? Which is, if you don't have a static way that things are done right now that everyone can, you know, quite literally stand at and point at and go, you see step three, how step three talks about that, I think we should bring that chunk of step four up there and then you know that thing we're talking about, if we do that, then we can do that and everyone can be looking at and pointing at the same thing.
[00:15:30] If you try and do that verbally, it is everyone's version of that process in their head how they do it and none of it the same. So you can't, there's no meeting of the minds.
[00:15:40] Matthew: And I can multiple examples of that across the last few weeks.
[00:15:43] James: Yeah.
[00:15:43] Hamish: Yep.
[00:15:44] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:15:44] Hamish: You know, it's been really interesting the last, uh, two or three weeks for us, actually going through the process with Gian and I think I was telling you this, um, on the phone just before, I, my, my communication with Gian, [00:16:00] uh, of when we feel like the system is complete, like actually writing down the information as complete, is when she can take a step back and look at it and know exactly how to do the task.
[00:16:11] As, as someone who has very limited construction experience, she should, she could come in and go, "Document review. Okay, what do, what are we looking for? Follow these da-da-da-da-da-da-da." I said, "When, when you understand what needs to happen-
[00:16:27] James: Sound effects are important.
[00:16:28] Hamish: Yep. Ticket, ticking the boxes, ticking the little, the little, little check boxes, then the system's complete."
[00:16:33] James: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:33] Hamish: So it, you know, it's about, um, I'm not saying like making, like empowering the lower level people in your business, but, but maybe it kind of is.
[00:16:43] James: Well, what I might do is I'll, it's probably worthwhile framing out an systems-
[00:16:48] Hamish: Yeah. ...
[00:16:48] James: versus policies versus training. They are three different things, right?
[00:16:54] Yeah. And most businesses will, like, the, and when we talk about, um, [00:17:00] where, one of the businesses that are really gonna benefit from systems is those businesses that are s- established. They've got their way of doing things. Then they haven't been around for five minutes. They know how they do ... They know what their formula is, right?
[00:17:11] It's not written down, but they know what it is.
[00:17:13] Matthew: So a system to me, if you just start, if you have to start your business tomorrow- Yeah. ... you don't start the system tomorrow, too.
[00:17:19] James: No, you'll just make stuff up until you can work out what works. And until you've made enough mistakes that you go, "Whoa, we are never gonna do that again.
[00:17:26] We're gonna do this. " And you find, you f- you build your formula- Yeah. ... through multiple iterations. Like, do not start systemizing until you actually know how to give a good thing to a customer, right? So, but the system is the day-to-day of how we create that result, generally, right? Um, policies, however, policies are like the business's position on a particular topic or, like, the 1% is that happen in business.
[00:17:51] So, like, what's a, um, you know, an absentee posi- policy or, like, requesting leave, like, those type of things. Or if someone does a complaint, like, you know, [00:18:00] ideally that shouldn't be a daily type of thing that happens, right? It's, it's the one-time things that happen and the curveballs happen in business, right?
[00:18:06] Matthew: So we, we wrote a policy last, while I wrote one last week, I think I had a quick chat to you about the use of our business being used by my team on social media and what- Perfect. ... what is, like, what hypothetically if they got a brand deal and the brand deal come and use my site- mm-hmm. ... like, who's got the insurance, all these things, so- Yep.
[00:18:24] James: Yeah.
[00:18:24] Hamish: Yeah. Or, or drugs and alcohol, car policy, phone- Yeah,
[00:18:26] James: exactly. Yeah. So systems is h- is how, how your business does its day-to-day, right? Policies are the one percentage that happen in business, the weird curve ball things- The rule.
[00:18:35] Matthew: They're
[00:18:36] James: rules. Yeah. Or the b- yeah, rules. Exactly. It's the business perspective on a particular topic.
[00:18:40] Yeah. Right? And then there's training. And that goes back to what you're talking about with Gian, which is taking people from a lower level of skill to a higher level of skill, right? So workflows, the systems, they can do that in part, but they are never gonna replace training. Like, and let's talk about training.
[00:18:57] Training as in boots on ground, actually training people, [00:19:00] but also giving people, um, setting up for success so they can watch a video of someone knowledgeable about explaining something ideally to someone else so you can actually get, you know, both sides of the equation in terms of good questions being asked on that video and then building that out ideally into a bit of a workflow for, well, I shouldn't use workflow instead of the system side of things, but document it out for what's the first, the second, the third step and so on so that someone can watch that video, they can read through the document in the training, and then they can go speak to someone who knows their stuff and ask this level questions, not this level of questions.
[00:19:33] Matthew: Yeah. So where do I start?
[00:19:35] James: Where do you start?
[00:19:36] Matthew: Because it seems like, oh, there's so much.
[00:19:39] James: Well, if you're, like, convinced, okay, I need to go do the thing.
[00:19:42] Matthew: Like, I know that I wanna do it.
[00:19:43] James: Okay.
[00:19:43] Matthew: I'm going to do it, but I'm- All right. Let's just say we got a list and be like, "Oh, this sounds too hard."
[00:19:47] James: All right, let's just swap the words there.
[00:19:48] I need to do it. Let's swap that over for, I know it needs to be done.
[00:19:51] Matthew: Yep.
[00:19:52] James: Does that make sense? Yeah. So the thing that Hamish has done, which is go and find someone to do it. So initially, he got me to do it to get those first, [00:20:00] like the, the, the groundwork r- Yeah. ... um, done, right? And, um, with systems, often once you see it, you can't unsee it, which is kind of what's happened for you.
[00:20:08] Yeah. Right? Um, once you go, "I need to get this thing done, the next best decision is decide who to do it. " So I've got that right now. Because it shouldn't be you, right?
[00:20:18] Matthew: Yeah, I've got, so I've got someone to do that.
[00:20:20] James: Okay. So what I'll also put to you, and I've already been through this with you, is the person that you likely think it should be is very likely not the person it should be.
[00:20:32] Let me explain, right? So we talk about, it's called like what's a systems champion, right? A person who can do the grunt work of building the systems in the business, right? Now, typically, that systems champion, every time we talk about they need to have great attention to detail, they need to be sort of a bit of a self-starter, they need to, uh, like, like knowing the why behind things that make their own checklists, you go, "Yeah, yeah, that's the person."
[00:20:56] And they go, "Not your right-hand person or not a person in [00:21:00] leadership." Yeah. And then you go, "Oh."
[00:21:02] Matthew: So that person would not fit in that bill. Okay. So they're very process driven.
[00:21:09] James: Great.
[00:21:09] Matthew: And when they read the book, they're like, "Oh my God, this is what we need." Perfect.
[00:21:13] Hamish: And I, I know another person that's talking about.
[00:21:15] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I would say, just from my limited experiences that she's the perfect person for it.
[00:21:21] Matthew: Yeah. I haven't gone to the person with 10, 15 years experience. So she's only been with me two, three years. Yep. Um, come from a diploma of construction. Mm-hmm. So, and so still a lot to learn, like very, very, very raw.
[00:21:35] James: Yeah. So there's only four things I say that, like, you need for a systems champion. Yeah. Um, but let's skip past fa- uh, past the first one, which is training. Yeah. 'Cause of course they need to be trained on how to do it. The three main things once they've got some training is time, authority, and empowerment.
[00:21:49] And so what does that mean? Time is the time. You've got to make sure they actually have a reasonable amount of time to do the thing. Um, if you- How much
[00:21:57] Hamish: time a week?
[00:21:57] James: Uh, it depends on how fast you want to go, [00:22:00] right?
[00:22:00] Hamish: 15 hours.
[00:22:01] James: 15 hours a week? It's a great start. If you're spending, if you're serious about this, two, two days a week, that's gonna get you moving, right?
[00:22:10] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:22:10] James: Um, if you just want this tick, trickling away at the background, it's gonna take a number of years, half a day a week. Um, I know people who try and do, like, half a day a fortnight, if we step back from actually how much, like, the time authority empowerment discussion, um, and go push that whole building the systems aside, the other part of the equation that cannot be ignored is how do we get the team to follow them, right?
[00:22:33] I'm sure that's a topic for, you know, another time, but how to get the people to follow them, one of the really important things you need to do is you need to get people on board with, this is actually what we're doing here.
[00:22:43] Matthew: So this is, to me, that's the easiest, like, you have no choice having said that I'm the biggest roadblock.
[00:22:48] Okay. But, like, to me, it's like you're, like, we're, we're doing this. Yeah. You've got no choice.
[00:22:52] James: Okay. Let, just- how that goes here.
[00:22:56] Matthew: I know, I know. Like, I know.
[00:22:58] James: So, um- I've
[00:22:59] Matthew: got, I've [00:23:00] got, I've actually got one worker who will definitely be, like, sick.
[00:23:06] James: Yep, yep.
[00:23:07] Matthew: But, um- Yeah, like, the rest-
[00:23:08] James: And then just echo, echo, echo for the rest of them.
[00:23:11] Yeah. So in terms of, um, just bring it back to, there's the, the system champion side of things, but we also need to make sure that the team want to follow it, right? Yeah. And we need to ... One of the things we talk about is how do we produce the evidence, how do we create the evidence that the team see that we are actually becoming a systemized business?
[00:23:31] 'Cause you're not gonna be for a while, right? Even after six months, then working away, that there's gonna be chunks that systemize, but you're very much on the journey, right? And so how do we get the, the team to appreciate that this is actually the direction we're going and we talk about building evidence, right?
[00:23:46] Um, and, uh, while I've never been a fish and an aquarium type of person, I've heard that, you know, when a, a fish is sick, you actually change the water, and this is the type of thing we wanna change the environment surrounding the team to make sure they can start to go, "Oh, I [00:24:00] see this. " Now, back onto the topic of the systems champion, if someone was doing it two or three hours a week, do you feel like that shows the team that we're serious about it?
[00:24:10] Matthew: No, and that's me right now.
[00:24:11] James: Exactly. Right? And so if the pendulum swings over to doing, like, two days a week, what does that demonstrate strength of the team? It's like, oh, we are serious about doing this. This is not some little thing that we're doing on the side. Like, we are seriously investing in building assets for our business to make sure that we can bottle our intellectual property.
[00:24:29] We've got a great formula for how we do things here. We wanna capture it because we don't want one person to walk out the door and us to feel like we're missing an arm.
[00:24:38] Matthew: And can you have multiple systems champions?
[00:24:41] James: It depends on how big your business is. Um, I ha- had a client who had five systems champions that had about 150 people in their business.
[00:24:49] Matthew: Okay.
[00:24:49] James: It's a bit hard to manage, um, and I probably wouldn't advise that much, but that was just the, their makeup. And, like, one of the things for me is, um, [00:25:00] you gotta make it work for you, right? Yeah. You gotta make it work for your circumstances, right? So your systems champion, I said time, authority, empowerment, you've gotta give them the time of, of the week to make sure that they can actually do the work.
[00:25:10] And it does take time to learn the skills, right? The authority is, if you don't tell your team that this is, uh, a priority, if you don't tell the team that this person, this systems champion is doing important work, when that person goes up to a team member and says, "Hey, can I sit down with you for about 45 minutes to pick your brain about this?
[00:25:34] They're gonna go, "Nah." Right?
[00:25:36] Matthew: Yeah, bye-bye.
[00:25:37] James: Yeah. So I, I, I'm busy. I've got, I've got stuff to do. Do you not see how I'm busy? I've got stuff to ... That, that doesn't work, right? So you have to give them the authority such that when someone comes and speaks to you, like, I'm, like, it's like it's coming from me that we, the business needs you.
[00:25:56] I need you to sit down and chat with our system champion-
[00:25:58] Matthew: Yeah. ...
[00:25:59] James: for them to pick your [00:26:00] brain. And the last one's the empowerment. If you, if you think about Gian, right, she is absolutely empowered by you- Yep. ... that she appreciates the value to the business about her doing this job well. Yeah. I just had a great chat with my, um, marketing assistant a couple of days ago.
[00:26:17] Um, there's a big project we're working on and I'm like, "By you doing this, this will bring in when w- when it works well, like six figures into the business over a number of years, like you can leave legacy impact, like I'm a big fan of you hi- um, you train people up for their next job, right? Yeah. No one's gonna work for you for the rest of their life."
[00:26:36] And I'm like, "You can take away that legacy. You can go tell your next boss that you did this project that achieved this result." Think about what that is for a systems champion. If you can build them up and say, "You will transform this business if you do your job well," that puffs up their chest and it really helps, helps to do great, great work.
[00:26:52] Hamish: You know, it's really interesting you said that. I, I had a meeting with Robert and Jane, both, both my VA's one an estimator, one's just my, um, or systems champion and [00:27:00] she does a bunch of other stuff for me. I remember, like, looking at both of them on the screen last Friday and telling them exactly that. I go, "The work that you're doing right now will transform our business."
[00:27:09] And you could just tell even just through the screen, like, how proud they were that they're part of this process. So it is, like, the empowerment thing is incredible, like, absolutely incredible and really essential for the success of this.
[00:27:23] Matthew: Yeah,
[00:27:23] Hamish: like- And I reckon Ky- uh-
[00:27:24] Matthew: Kayla.
[00:27:24] Hamish: Kayla would
[00:27:25] Matthew: definitely- Yeah, and for me, yeah, like, I think she's super pumped because she also has to deal with me who can be quite chaotic.
[00:27:30] So having fun, some form of a system to hold me accountable is gonna be quite fun for her.
[00:27:35] Hamish: Um, James, I'm gonna ask you a question. Um, why do I need any of this when I've got AI?
[00:27:41] James: That's the best question I'll ask right now.
[00:27:43] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:27:43] James: Okay. Um, I love people that know how AI works in terms of they become great, like, referral partners for me because when they say, "Oh, so what are you doing?"
[00:27:54] Like, oh, I get, you know, the business out of people's heads and then get it, like, to pixels on the screen. [00:28:00] Yeah. And they're like, "So you get all, like, the process and policies is like ... " It goes, "Oh my gosh, I, I need you in my life because AI can't do anything without data, right? You have to have data for AI to go and learn."
[00:28:13] You think about large language models. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's in the name, right? You have to have the data, the documentation, the way your business works, such that you can actually have AI understand. Because if you think in the early days when people are using AI, they go, "Oh, it's actually pretty crap.
[00:28:31] It doesn't really do a good job. I asked it to write me an email. It was, it was all right." But it's like, yeah, you wrote one sentence.
[00:28:37] Matthew: Write me an email.
[00:28:38] James: Yeah, about one. Write me an email. Exactly, right? And so, like, some of the prompts that we use, like, when we do documentation, like, like, it's part of what we do, so it's a high standard output, and we put, you know, a few thousand words in for the prompting, let alone megs and megs of knowledge base to get it to do a process, get it to write a process, right?
[00:28:57] If you put a transcript into AI [00:29:00] and then say, "Write me a process," you'll get that one line equivalent in terms of the quality. So why do you need it with AI to train the AI so it has context, because context is everything, right?
[00:29:13] Hamish: So it's one of the really interesting things that I'm seeing now, uh, because I've been on SystemHub, which is the, a product by systemology which is where all their systems sit.
[00:29:22] Well, they will sit once we've finished them. Um, but Gian's actually using the, uh, the inbred-
[00:29:29] Matthew: ProcessPower?
[00:29:30] Hamish: Yeah, the Process Power in, um, in SystemHub to write a, um, system. And what was really interesting the other day, I had, like, three or four extractions booked out with her, and they're about an hour and a bit apart throughout the day, because they had other meetings.
[00:29:45] And by the time I went from one meeting, one extraction to the next extraction, she said, "Oh, this one's almost done."
[00:29:51] James: Yep.
[00:29:51] Hamish: Because she just popped it into the AI, put this transcript in there, few prompts is what we're doing, put the extraction form in, put the script in, and then [00:30:00] And printed out something that I could then review.
[00:30:03] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:30:03] Hamish: Just like that. It's like what, what would have, would have taken her hours beforem is now boom.
[00:30:10] Matthew: You actually said the word when we are finished. Do you finish them?
[00:30:15] Hamish: No. Oh, hang on which one?
[00:30:18] Matthew: No, no, do you finish? You don't finish systemizing. So
[00:30:21] James: let, let's, systemizing becomes a thing that your business does to be a good business.
[00:30:27] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:30:28] James: It's the same as marketing. Like, oh, when we've got enough customers, we'll stop marketing. Yeah, that's never, that's not a thing, right? Yeah. So, and this is why it has to be on not your shoulders, right?
[00:30:39] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:30:39] James: It needs to be on someone else's shoulders. Like the number of times I've had, um, uh, people, generally builders that come to me and say, "Oh, I want my wife to be my systems champion."
[00:30:48] Let's say it wasn't even being a systems champion. Oh, I want her to help out with the adminis side of things, not like being a CA or anything like that. I just want her to sort of be able to keep track on- Yeah. ... this that, you know, because we're protective of the money in money [00:31:00] out. Um, you know, we had a lot, lot of discussions about money, money out and like controlling the finance and things like that.
[00:31:06] And the first question I'll ask is, "Hey, when you go on holidays, do you want your wife to come with you? " And they're like, "Yeah, it's kind of like the point." It's like, well, why would you have, um, you know, your significant other as a component of your business? Like they are a cog in the business. They're, they're being a systems champion if they're doing admini type of stuff.
[00:31:25] They are a cog in your business that you can't remove when you go on holiday. You know, you want your business to run there without you being there. And by you, it's like your family.
[00:31:34] Matthew: Yeah. I, I really ... I know there's a lot of people that have their partners involved in the business. It was like one of my big, big no-nos.
[00:31:43] Hamish: Yep.
[00:31:44] Matthew: I just think that like it, it, there's the chance of you taking your work home and it causes friction and not being able to, uh, break that apart and understand when to talk about it and when not to talk about it. Like I just feel it's too [00:32:00] scary and too high risk personally.
[00:32:01] Hamish: Yeah, look, Luce worked in our business for a second years ago and, um- You
[00:32:05] Matthew: made her redundant.
[00:32:07] Hamish: I made her redundant, yeah. Yeah, she got a massive redundancy payout as well. She got the house actually. It's all in her name.
[00:32:12] Matthew: But like, I just, yeah. And like, and the, the problem is, and Nicole would be like the best person for system. Like she's so processed driven by-
[00:32:20] James: Well, what I'll give you a framing for here is like, so, um, the interesting and somewhat weird thing about systems champions is the systems champion you have today is not necessarily gonna, the one you're gonna have in a year.
[00:32:29] Yeah. Like Gian might evolve into something different because this weird thing happens is imagine if you put this individual into your business, they know nothing about your business, hell, they know nothing about building, right? 'Cause that actually can be an asset, which sounds a bit weird.
[00:32:41] Matthew: Yeah, and I get
[00:32:42] James: what you mean.
[00:32:42] And you plant that seed and you let them go and ask people about how their part of the business works, and they are responsible for weaving the fabric of how your systems work together. How much does that person know about your business in a year?
[00:32:56] Hamish: Oh, ridiculous.
[00:32:57] James: Right?
[00:32:57] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:32:57] James: They become so valuable [00:33:00] because they understand how the left and the right hand sort of work together, that they become too valuable to be a systems champion, and they often step up into like an operational, you know, coordinator, manager type of role.
[00:33:12] Yeah. I've seen that happen a number of times before. And the weird thing is this is just as applicable for remote team members who aren't in Australia, um, they, they learn just as well as any, the next person who might be sitting in the office next to you, how this business runs and to go and have that chunk of the business being looked after by someone who deeply understands it-
[00:33:34] Hamish: Yep.
[00:33:35] James: what happens is that systems champion passes the bat to someone else, right? And then they can train up and mentor that next team member into being that systems champion who then takes on their journey of iterating evolving systems over time. So there's
[00:33:49] Matthew: a lifespan on them.
[00:33:51] James: Well-
[00:33:51] Matthew: You should put, maybe put a lifespan on them.
[00:33:54] James: If you were going to look at how am I gonna maximize the value to the business from the different resources I have, [00:34:00] um, I'm a big fan of this idea that, um, the business, like if you had, uh, I love the superannuation adverts, the, you know, the industry hit super funds where they talk about like same business, same income, same person, and they talk about the difference in value of the super over time.
[00:34:15] It's the same thing with business. If you've got, you've got two building companies, they've both got eight team members, they've both got a PM and a CA and the site supervisors and blah, blah, blah, those who allocate the resources best win.
[00:34:29] Hamish: Look at Jackson. I. I mean, you, you, you, that's like Jackson from Duro Builders.
[00:34:35] So we had a chat, we went out for dinner with him last night and, you know, he does a bunch of homes a year and he said he met one of his clients for the first time halfway through the build.
[00:34:47] Matthew: And he was only there because he was filming something for social media.
[00:34:49] Hamish: Yep.
[00:34:49] Matthew: Yep.
[00:34:50] Hamish: Like that right there tells me that his systems are just on point.
[00:34:55] And that, and that's what you can do with a systemized business. Like, yeah, I mean, [00:35:00] I, I really admire what he's doing and how he's systemized business. Luke Davies is another one. Like how he's dialed in his business is incredible.
[00:35:06] James: Yeah.
[00:35:07] Matthew: So where, where, what part of the business do you start systems on?
[00:35:10] James: So my mindset has evolved from this.
[00:35:13] Um, so Luke Davies, like Luke was my very first customer- mm-hmm. ... in terms of systemizing, right? I'd been doing other sort of business coaching things- Yeah. ... before then, but, um, I had, uh, started working with Luke at the very beginning of my journey. Yeah. Um, and we started on the critical client flow, which is in a nutshell, how does your business make mon- what's the main way that your business makes money?
[00:35:35] Hamish: Phone call through to delivery.
[00:35:36] James: Yeah. How do you find the customer? Like, how do you do your marketing? How to handle inquiries? What's your sales processes at three steps, 29 steps, whatever it might be, we get you to condense it down, um, because we do start with overview processes first because if you try and, you know, do every little nut and bolt, it's gonna take you forever- Yeah.
[00:35:54] and you don't see a tangible result. Then how do you do, you know, finance, onboarding, how do you build the [00:36:00] actual house? But again, we did what, a mega, like, two hour extraction on how to build a house. It's weird to see an A4 sheet in front of you, which is, this is how my business makes money, and the tiny little box that has built on it is where all the actual work is being done by the team.
[00:36:17] Yeah. And it seems like madness.
[00:36:20] Hamish: From, from, from a builder's point of view, I, I would say that systemizing the actual construction part of it is less important than working out how you're getting inquiries, how you're doing your marketing, how you're running your pre-construction, because that's where the success becomes.
[00:36:38] The build should just be the boring part. Like thinking about- It's the
[00:36:41] Matthew: easiest one too.
[00:36:42] Hamish: Yeah. Well, because you're engaging professional people-
[00:36:45] James: Yeah. ...
[00:36:45] Hamish: you know, to, to do their work. And
[00:36:46] Matthew: then work on their systems
[00:36:48] James: later. This is, this is very counterintuitive and, you know, building businesses, um, much like other businesses, everyone sees that most of the fires are coming from the thing that we're doing for the customer.
[00:36:58] And so therefore, when they think [00:37:00] about things like systemizing, I've got to go put, if I work over here, that will put the fires out. Like I remember getting a call from Luke and he was like, he's clearly pissed. And I think he was either driving to or driving back from, um, picking up some fencing that had blown over because the horning, like had too many hoardings attached in a high wind area, right?
[00:37:18] And he's like, "I need to, we need to do some more work together because this is, this is still not there yet, blah, blah, blah, blah, because we need to get some of these final bits and pieces worked out, right?" And so that's where often the pain is seen, but this is where like the, what Dave Jenner has built in terms of this simplistic critical client flow is brilliant because if you look at where the business owner time is spent, it's all the top parts.
[00:37:41] It's like the marketing, the inquiries, the sales, like, yes, you may not ha- ha- um, handle every single inquiry, but generally they will get through to you and you'll be the face of the company and all these bits and pieces. It's the operations that is the first thing that is delegated in any business, right?
[00:37:57] Whether you're a florist, like I mentioned before, or a carpet, [00:38:00] it doesn't matter. It's the first thing that gets delegated. So how do you free your time up? It's all those parts above. But what I'll say is that my thoughts on what's worth, what's the most important things to first systemize in a building business is actually a bit different.
[00:38:14] Matthew: Yeah, I was gonna say, because it's so, it's, it's almost two businesses. You got pre-start or pre onsite and post- Well,
[00:38:20] James: not so much in that context, but what I'll ask is, so roughly how many homes are you guys doing a year?
[00:38:25] Matthew: Three
[00:38:25] Hamish: to
[00:38:26] Matthew: five.
[00:38:26] James: Right. So if we were to go and we won't get granular on how, how many people do you attract and how many people do you convert, we won't go into those numbers, but if you're building, let's say, an average of four homes a year, let's extrapolate that and say you might have what, 50, 60 people come through and start the very top and start having conversations.
[00:38:45] Yeah,
[00:38:45] Matthew: it's probably right.
[00:38:45] James: Yeah. Right. So if you look at how many times you're going through that CCF, if it was 60, you know, divide that by 12 months of the year, you can see that there's not that many times you're going through, but definitely when you get through, you know, um, building out [00:39:00] estimating and- Yeah.
[00:39:00] like contracts, it's getting really narrow. You're only a handful of those a year, realistically, right? Yeah. So what's the leverage? What's the leverage that ... And this is specifically for a builder compared to other businesses that have got lots more, like s- like with my last business, we had five and a half thousand clients a year.
[00:39:15] It was very, very different, right? Yeah. So that was the nature of that particular industry. So with this, for me, I see most ... Partly I like to work on the critical client flow, but the other one is business owner free time. I call it BOFT, right? Yeah. 'Cause it's a beautiful acronym. Just sounds awful. So business owner free time.
[00:39:33] So- BOFT. BOFT.
[00:39:35] Hamish: BOFT.
[00:39:35] James: BOFT just rolls up tons of- But do you
[00:39:37] Hamish: know what? No, it sounds good too. BOFT.
[00:39:40] James: BOFT. BOFT. What's your BOFF like lately?
[00:39:41] Hamish: What's your BOF like? Hey, Matt, tell me about your BOFT.
[00:39:44] James: Yeah. It's pretty good. It's getting better. It's
[00:39:46] Matthew: getting better. It's actually getting
[00:39:47] Hamish: better and legit.
[00:39:48] James: Right. Well, you wouldn't be sitting here today in a different state that you do.
[00:39:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. So business owner free time, going and working out how do we solve that equation because when we look at how many [00:40:00] cycles you go through the critical client flow in the building industry, it's not, uh, it's not a black and white equation that the CCF is the main thing to focus on, working out where is the, the business owner, where's the builder spending most of their time, that cannot be ignored, but there's three things I focus on, getting a system champion the business trained up, critical client flow and freeing up the business owner's time.
[00:40:22] Those are three separate challenges that we approach-
[00:40:25] Matthew: But what if I love certain doing certain tasks in my business? I actually- Cool. ... I actually want to do certain tests. Great. Yeah.
[00:40:30] James: Great. More power to you. And the thing is, this is not to help people create a business that completely runs without them and they just start going off and like twiddling their thumbs, like, oh, crap.
[00:40:42] Um, I kind of like being a builder. Yeah. I kind of like speaking to clients or- Yeah. ... I can't like doing this or I can't like mentoring a team- It's a
[00:40:49] Matthew: choice. I get to choose what I wanna do.
[00:40:50] James: Freedom of choice.
[00:40:51] Matthew: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:52] James: Right? If that freedom of choice is for you to be able to go, pick your kids up from school because that's what you wanna do with time, cool.
[00:40:59] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:40:59] James: If [00:41:00] it's because you really wanna go and build a cool training program to mentor young people coming up through the industry or go on industry, you know, uh, you know, focus on bettering your industry, which is obviously what you're doing-
[00:41:12] Matthew: Yeah. ...
[00:41:13] James: like that's what you do with your free time. It's about getting that choice back rather than
[00:41:18] I mean, the thing is the business owner is generally the one that has to suck it up and do all the shitty jobs.
[00:41:25] Hamish: Would, would you say that, um, actually mapping out the critical client flow is still an important step though?
[00:41:31] James: Mapping it out is, is- Yeah. ... day, day zero
[00:41:34] Hamish: does stop. Day zero, yeah. So like from
[00:41:36] Matthew: the moment a client call until how they-
[00:41:37] Hamish: Yeah, just ma- just literally map it out.
[00:41:38] I'll show you, I'll show you one that we've done. Yeah, which
[00:41:40] Matthew: I, I think I've got somewhere because I try, I try and improve it all the time.
[00:41:43] Hamish: Yeah. 'Cause I, I reckon and, and, and, and what is music to my ears and probably sort of sings to some of the conversation I've had with you over the, over the last couple of years is that I'm like, uh, I, I think we should be doing it a little bit differently.
[00:41:57] I think we should be doing a little bit differently and you're like, nah, [00:42:00] nah, CCF, CCF. So I'm, I, I understand the importance of CCF, but I also intimately understand the little nuances of the building industry with the building industry. So I know in the Systems Champion Academy at the moment, there's a big focus on mapping out the CCF and we've chosen to do something slightly different.
[00:42:19] We're sort of, we've isolated, um, a section of my business that we're systemizing, which I feel is gonna have the biggest impact and that is our pre-construction process because I think the quicker we move through pre-construction, the more success we're gonna see on site.
[00:42:35] James: Yep.
[00:42:35] Hamish: And the more that that's predictable through that cr- uh, through the pre-construction process, the more successful and more profitable we'll be onsite.
[00:42:44] So we've chosen to map out our CCF, but then zone in
[00:42:48] James: on pre-construction. But the context is we already mapped out your
[00:42:51] Hamish: CCF- Correct.
[00:42:52] And
[00:42:52] James: that's what you're saying. So that's what we, he's ... So you're that extra step further. Yes. So just to, to build out the, what does the, the journey look [00:43:00] like, right? Um, ignoring the things like getting a systems champion, you first get your critical client flow, right?
[00:43:05] That is sort of one of the most important frameworks. And then that is part of what we call minimum viable systems.
[00:43:11] Hamish: Yep.
[00:43:12] James: Which is, if you think about minimum viable product, like what's the most basic version of this widget that we can sell that does the thing for the customer? It's the same thing with systems, like what's the least amount of systems that we can get away with that still keeps our business functioning and viable, all right?
[00:43:27] And we talk, it's like, say the rule of 42, which is about, you've got about six departments in your business, and there's, uh, about seven minimum viable systems a year, and that's just the starting ground, okay? Yeah. And so while I think my current business, I haven't done account lately, it probably has about eight or 900 processes in it because it's what I do for a living, so of course it does, right?
[00:43:47] Um-
[00:43:48] Matthew: Are you your systems champion?
[00:43:49] James: Uh, no. And this, but this is different because if you imagine getting hired by me who does systemizing for a living, I only work with people who are systems people, [00:44:00] right? And so therefore I only recruit into my business people that way inclined.
[00:44:04] Matthew: What if
[00:44:04] James: the- Even my, even my marketing person who's like a bit of a graphic designer background, she still is good with systems.
[00:44:10] Matthew: Yeah, but like, is it sometimes good to have the opposite to challenge something, like in a sense of like, why are we doing this or like is that healthy sometimes to have someone that's not systems orientated?
[00:44:21] James: So I'll put it this way. It's, if you had the choice between two identical team members, one like following systems and one didn't, which would you pick?
[00:44:32] Matthew: Yeah, the one that likes, yeah.
[00:44:33] James: Right.
[00:44:34] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:44:34] James: And so is there a valid perspective from someone who, who doesn't like to follow systems? I would say you could say the same thing from two different individuals because everyone's got to have their life experiences they can bring in to give a perspective. The fact that one happens to be a systems mind, the other one doesn't, I don't think sort of plays into it.
[00:44:50] Matthew: So what if you had someone that was like 10 out of 10 on marketing, but maybe six out of 10 with systems, but someone was a six out of 10 in marketing, but a 10 in 10 in systems?
[00:44:59] James: I don't know how to do the [00:45:00] math of that equation right now. Put it this way, because like you can't just pass- Yeah. ... judgment on those t- two single metrics about the value of the, the, the team member.
[00:45:08] Yeah. So it's an impossible question to answer, right? So the thing is, who's the best fit for the business, what the business needs right now? Like if you're here and you're trying to get to here and the next steps here, what's the most and next appropriate step for you? And it might be the, the 10 out of 10 for marketing, the five out- Yeah.
[00:45:23] six out of 10 for systems, it, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't really play into it too much.
[00:45:29] Matthew: I can't think what else. I'm actually really excited. So for transparency, I'm actually really pumped for this because I know it's work with you. I can see it's work with multiple other builders.
[00:45:38] Hamish: It's work, it's working with us and, and, and it's a, it's a, it's a work in progress.
[00:45:42] Matthew: It's gonna form some form of structure to me. Yeah. So it holds me accountable. So for me, um, that's why I'm really pumped about it. Uh, I also think it's, I do wanna do other things, so it's gonna give me the freedom to choose, but I, I, I still wanna work in the business. Like I actually am probably different.
[00:45:59] I don't wanna [00:46:00] go, don't wanna know what my business does. I actually want to actively do certain tasks because I actually enjoy it.
[00:46:06] James: So one of the, the ways that I recommend people think about how they wanna be working and engaging with the company in the future is that business owners who have the business running without them, like hand on heart- Yeah.
[00:46:17] running without them that can pick and choose if, when and how much they work-
[00:46:21] Matthew: Yeah. ...
[00:46:21] James: that they should be follow- focusing on projects.
[00:46:24] Matthew: Yes.
[00:46:24] James: Right? Projects relating to the business.
[00:46:25] Matthew: And that's probably what I wanna do.
[00:46:27] James: Yeah. And so what we talk about is, um, in terms of like all these different evolutions of as you go along your systemizing journey, where the business owner should ideally get to at the end, e- end game is the master six systems architect because no one knows the business like the business owner does.
[00:46:45] Whether you've had it for five years or 25 years, you've been there through thick and thin, you know, you know the nuance that people who started 10, 15 years later have no idea about how hard it used to be.
[00:46:57] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:46:57] James: Like I loved when I was recruiting people in my last [00:47:00] business and we had this, you know, software that was beautiful, everything was automated up to its eyeballs with Zapier, like that was great, but people who started in the, the latter part of the era of my business had no idea how hard it was and how much work we had to put in and didn't have a real appreciation for how easy we had it.
[00:47:19] You as the business owner do, right? And- Like
[00:47:22] Matthew: when I used to dig holes on site.
[00:47:23] James: Yeah. Right?
[00:47:25] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:47:25] James: And so you know better than anyone else what the business needs in terms of the next step in terms of how do we iterate and how do we evolve this thing over here. Um, as you go through with things like, um, I talk about this optimization curve in terms of when do you start optimizing your business because the counterintuitive thing is you systemize before you optimize, even though every fiber of your being wants to optimize, right?
[00:47:52] Hamish: Yep.
[00:47:52] James: Right. Yep.
[00:47:53] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:47:53] James: Is that you get far more leverage from making it repeatable than you do making it world class. Yep. Right? [00:48:00] And so in terms of how you go along this curve, you start to build your critical client flow, then you start to get your minimum viable systems. And once you're getting it to, to the end of your minimum viable systems, you think about, well, how are we gonna optimize our business?
[00:48:12] And you're generally looking to how do we get AI to help or how do we make a job so that someone who's not sitting next to me, maybe someone who's remote can actually come in and help. So AIs and VAs is usually where I recommend people start heading towards about that stage. Yep. Because at least you've got some of how your business works down that.
[00:48:29] Yeah,
[00:48:30] yeah.
[00:48:30] James: Right? And then as you go further along, you start doing systemizing sprints in areas of pain, like you're talking about pre-com, right?
[00:48:36] Hamish: Yep,
[00:48:36] James: yep. So you start going, where does the business need, like, where is the business got pain, where is these issues with people, where is there opportunities for performance, um, or where can we improve on prices in like start reducing costs and things like that, right?
[00:48:50] So as you start going along those different systemizing sprints, that's when you step into your space of being that master systems architect, and that's rather than you, instead of things evolving, [00:49:00] you completely tear them up and you make a brand new one. Like that's because you have the time, you have the autonomy to be able to do that and you can have the freedom of choice to go, "You know what?
[00:49:08] I've had my holidays. I'm gonna sit down and work my ass off for the next three months because I love this stuff."
[00:49:13] Hamish: Yeah. Yep. Um, we have a, we have a segment on the podcast called the MEGT Mindful Moment. So MEGT is one of the sponsors of our, uh, podcast and they are Australia's biggest, um, uh, apprenticeship- Apprenticeship
[00:49:28] Matthew: experts.
[00:49:29] Hamish: Apprenticeship provider. My m- mindful moment for any apprentice listening to this right now is go and do yourself a favor, go and buy the book systemology. It is a really easy read, um, and I, I've, I've listened to it three times and I've read it twice. And there's also a book called Systems Champion. Now, uh, interestingly talking to Dave Jennings, uh, a few months ago, he started to think about maybe the best person or maybe a good person to do, be a system [00:50:00] champion is an apprentice.
[00:50:01] James: Yep.
[00:50:02] Hamish: Is if you think about it, they're green and they're learning, and what better way for them to learn your business and make them valuable is to get them as a systems champion. And you, you before asking how many systems champion you can have.
[00:50:15] Matthew: So this is, I was thinking one onsite, one offsite.
[00:50:17] Hamish: Maybe you could have one on site, maybe have one offsite.
[00:50:19] Um, now I, I, I'm just throwing some words out here to- Yeah. ... maybe just to think about. But read the book, Systemology, and just start thinking about things that you do in your life now that you do on autopilot. You get in your car and you drive, you don't think about it. You get up in the morning, you do teach heavy breakfast, whatever it is, you don't think about it.
[00:50:38] Start thinking about you rocking up to work, and what do you do when you get out of your car? Start thinking about that as a system, and start thinking about how, or whether or not that's efficient, or how you can improve it. Luke, um, Davies talks about going to site and drawing a spaghetti map.
[00:50:57] Matthew: That was scary.
[00:50:58] Hamish: That was really scary. I don't know if you've ever [00:51:00] heard of this sort of a-
[00:51:00] No.
[00:51:01] Hamish: Yeah. All right. He sat down and watched his staff members one day with a, with a, with a map, with, with a, with a site plan.
[00:51:08] Matthew: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:08] Hamish: And actually sat down and drew, like, on the page where all his team- I know where this is going.
[00:51:13] what all his teams went to. And if you think about it, w- we've, if, if you just map a, you know, all the people on site and you start drawing where they've been, it just looks like squiggles on site. Now, that's not efficient. And what that would do if you start thinking like that is starting to think about when you're setting up for a task where you want the things that you need.
[00:51:34] Where do you want the timber? Where do you want your tools? Are your tools charging? Do you need to c- consistently go back to your car to grab your stuff? So I know I've probably said a lot of things now, but just to kind of condense it down into one message, start thinking about how you can make your time on site efficient.
[00:51:51] James: Can I challenge, can I challenge that?
[00:51:52] Hamish: Absolutely.
[00:51:54] James: So, um, I have a, a new operations coordinator at, uh, at work and, um, I, [00:52:00] I saw that she wrote something up. It was actually a job description for a systems champion. We're just doing a little bit of an update and she had the word efficient on there. I'm like, "Oh, you don't know.
[00:52:07] And she's like, "What?" Like, that word's banned in this business, the word efficiency is banned.
[00:52:14] Hamish: Okay.
[00:52:15] James: The reason being is, would you prefer a team member who's efficient or effective?
[00:52:24] Hamish: Yep, okay.
[00:52:25] James: One taken?
[00:52:26] Hamish: Yep.
[00:52:27] James: Yep. Yep. Do you want them sweeping the floor quickly or do you want them focusing on impactful work?
[00:52:33] Like, efficient is not necessarily doing the right things. They're just doing them quickly, like they're doing them whatever's well. Them being focused on the right things, this is important. So in terms of when you're talking about an apprentice being efficient, um, while I love the idea of them being conscious, then being mindful, pardon the part, um, them being really focused on what, what is the layout of what I'm doing right now, [00:53:00] is this where it should be, or can I be a little bit more intentional about this?
[00:53:03] I love that.
[00:53:04] Hamish: Yep.
[00:53:05] James: The thing where I really want people to think about and leaning into with, like, you, with your business, version one is better than version none, right? Version one of how you do things is the most important step you can make. If you are kicking around no version, you don't have anything bottled at all, it's all just in your head, that's unleverageable.
[00:53:29] And for all the, the, not, not so much the apprentices, but for the builders listening, this is where moving away from this mindset, I've got to improve, I've got to improve, I've got to improve it, and just focusing on, no, no, no, I just want to get a, a formula as it is today, because this, this is like, and I know I've, I've said this to you, but probably haven't said this to you, Matt, is everyone that has a business thinks their business is a bit broken.
[00:53:56] Is that fair, cool?
[00:53:56] Matthew: Yeah, 100%.
[00:53:57] James: Right. You're [00:54:00] established.
[00:54:00] Matthew: Yeah. You got
[00:54:01] James: a team.
[00:54:02] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:54:03] James: Making some money.
[00:54:03] Matthew: Yep.
[00:54:05] James: Could always have, you know, more est- more, being better established and have a better team and make more money.
[00:54:10] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:54:10] James: But your business is not broken. If you've got those three things, it ain't broken. And if it's not systemized right now, is it?
[00:54:18] Matthew: No, no, no. There probably, there's probably more systems that I actually give myself credit for.
[00:54:22] James: Right. But as it stands today with a current level of systemization- It's
[00:54:26] Matthew: working very well. It's best I feel like it's been running for
[00:54:28] James: a
[00:54:28] Matthew: long time. Right.
[00:54:29] James: It's not broken. No. And so if your business is not systemized, doesn't limit, suddenly mean it's gonna stop working, right?
[00:54:36] No.
[00:54:36] Matthew: Yeah. Well, I couldn't be here otherwise.
[00:54:38] James: Exactly. So having your business get just your version one for as it is now is bottling how it's working right now. It's not about tomorrow's version, it's just about getting today's version locked down.
[00:54:52] Matthew: I like that. Worry about today, not tomorrow.
[00:54:54] James: Yeah. Don't make it world-class, just make it repeatable.
[00:54:58] Hamish: Yep. [00:55:00] Um, lots of great messages there. Thank you. Oh, how, sorry, how do, how do people get in contact with you?
[00:55:04] James: Uh, they could probably check out Builders Escape. I've actually rebranded.
[00:55:08] Hamish: Rebranded. Okay. Yep.
[00:55:09] James: Yes.
[00:55:10] Hamish: Builderscapes on, on the Instagram- Builderescape.com.
[00:55:14] James: So I don't do socials, but my team do my LinkedIn for me.
[00:55:17] Hamish: Okay.
[00:55:17] James: Um, but you go to buildersescape.com or. Com. Au, you'll, you'll see me there.
[00:55:21] Hamish: Yep.
[00:55:22] James: Great. Um, and- So that's
[00:55:22] Matthew: how we get in contact for the training of our team.
[00:55:25] James: Yep,
[00:55:26] Matthew: exactly.
[00:55:26] James: Yep.
[00:55:27] Hamish: Awesome. And look, I, I think if you're a builder out there and you're, if you've got any, I guess, I don't know, motivation off the back of this to actually do it, I'd definitely reach out to James because I can see the changes that it's made in my business already, so.
[00:55:42] Matthew: I, well, I think it'd be good in a year to come back when we have a chat and we can see where I'm at.
[00:55:46] Hamish: Yep.
[00:55:46] Matthew: Yeah. I think that'd be great. I think that actually really cool to see what's changed.
[00:55:49] Hamish: Maybe there's a sponsorship opportunity for James to, uh, like give you some free stuff. All righ, thanks, mate.
[00:55:55] Thank you. [00:56:00] Cheers.