This is a can of worms

“Legally, you can still build a house with no membrane.” 

That was Villy Yordanov, Pro Clima’s Innovation Engineer, saying the quiet part out loud. Villy knows his stuff, too. He has a Bachelor of Mechanical Engineering from VIA University College in Horsens, Denmark, and a Master of Mechanical Engineering from UTS in Sydney. And the reason that quote landed is simple. It exposes the gap between what you can do under the rules and what you should do if you actually care about durability, moisture safety, and building performance.

NCC 2025 and Compliance
We sat down with Villy at Pro Clima HQ in Sydney and went straight into the NCC changes. The part that surprised us was how some cladding types can now bypass performance solutions. It sounds like it makes compliance easier. It can also make it easier to miss the point. Because “compliant” and “durable” are not always the same thing. And if you are not careful, you can end up with a wall that ticks boxes but still lets water and moisture do their slow, expensive work.

Membranes Are Not Optional
We spent a lot of time on membranes because they are still misunderstood. People talk about them like they are only there to stop condensation. Like they are a nice-to-have. Or like the cladding will handle it. Villy was very clear. Membranes are part of the building envelope system. They help manage water, air, and vapour. They protect the structure. They buy you durability. And if you skip them, or install them badly, you are basically trusting luck to do the job of building science.

Weatherproofing Is a System
The biggest mistake we see is treating cladding like it is the weatherproofing layer. It is not. It is one layer in a system. Cavity. Wrap. Tapes. Penetrations. Junctions. Ventilation. Airtightness. Vapour control. All of it has to work together. If one part is weak, the whole thing gets risky. And the scary part is you often do not find out until years later.

Tropical Builds Are Not a Free Pass
We also talked about tropical climates because there is still this idea that warm weather means you can relax a bit. If anything, humidity makes the consequences faster and nastier. Moisture does not care if you are in Sydney or Cairns. If it gets trapped, it will do what it does. Mould. Rot. Smell. Health issues. Callbacks. The whole mess.

Education Is the Job Now
This episode was a reminder that staying sharp is part of being a builder now. Codes change. Products change. Expectations change. And the builders who do well are the ones who keep learning and keep asking better questions. That is why we have these conversations. Not to be perfect. To get better. To build homes that hold up. And to stop pretending the stuff behind the cladding does not matter.

LINKS:

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• FULL TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Hamish: Have you ever wondered what it means to build with intention? Well, I'm Hamish. 

  [00:00:06] Matt: And I'm Matt. And we are dedicated to pushing boundaries and building better homes. 

  [00:00:11] Hamish: We welcome you to join us on the Mind for Builder podcast, where we are committed to driving positive change in the building industry by surrounding you with experts in their field and being open about our lives as builders.

  [00:00:22] Matt: Join us on this mindful journey of construction by subscribing to the Mindful podcast.

  [00:00:30] We are at the real official, real Pro Clima studio today. And 

  [00:00:36] Hamish: well, is it, it's not really the Proclaimer studio. It's like we were a Pro Clima HQ in Sydney. 

  [00:00:40] Matt: Um, yeah, we're, this is super exciting. Who 

  [00:00:42] Hamish: are our sponsors? 

  [00:00:44] Matt: I think Pro Clima. 

  [00:00:45] Hamish: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Pro Clima, one of our 

  [00:00:46] Matt: sponsors. I dunno if anyone's heard of them.

  [00:00:48] Um, kind of a big deal. The Now we are, before we introduce today's guest, we are in there. If you're not watching this by video. They're starting to set this [00:01:00] up as a bit of a pretty cool hub training facility. So if you are in Sydney, um, actually really in Australia, you're gonna come through Sydney at any point.

  [00:01:08] Keep an eye out for this hub. You guys are, I think, gonna be using it in the future for educational purposes. It's what, what's really cool where I'm sitting behind me, you've got some commercial facade systems that you could break it down like a very 3D structured detail to understand how this goes together than try to draw this on the, 

  [00:01:23] Hamish: is this the new, the new certified system that you guys launched 

  [00:01:26] Matt: for Tex?

  [00:01:27] Villy: Yes. Tex. Tex Lio. So that hero on its own, and then a hero with Roco on the outside as an external continuous installation. 

  [00:01:35] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:01:36] Villy: Then put whatever cladding we want. Yep. On the front as a fully tested system. 

  [00:01:40] Matt: Now we have the smartest pro climb employee. 

  [00:01:44] Villy: Is it? 

  [00:01:44] Matt: Is that, that's what we've been told. Okay. Your last month's employee of the month, weren't you 

  [00:01:49] Villy: maybe?

  [00:01:50] Matt: No, we are, we have V today, so I think we should say with all the Pro Clima staff we get on with next day, we tell 'em that the most. The smartest, but I think you actually [00:02:00] are. So you give Jesse A. Good run for his money. 

  [00:02:02] Hamish: What's your background, Billy? 

  [00:02:03] Villy: Background in mechanical engineer. Yeah. I come from Bulgaria and studied mechanical engineering in Denmark.

  [00:02:08] Hamish: In Denmark. How long have you been in Australia for? 

  [00:02:10] Villy: Almost 10 years now. 

  [00:02:12] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:02:12] Villy: I came as an, as an exchange student from my Danish university just to travel for a few months here and study and look at me 

  [00:02:18] Matt: and now, you 

  [00:02:19] Hamish: know, 

  [00:02:19] Villy: married Australia 

  [00:02:20] Hamish: wife, still kids. Right. 

  [00:02:21] Matt: So now you know the NC more than anyone else?

  [00:02:24] Hamish: Arguably much, much, much more than me. No doubt. 

  [00:02:26] Villy: Maybe in some sections potentially, yeah. 

  [00:02:29] Matt: So, okay, let's, let's head down that road straight away. 

  [00:02:32] Villy: Mm. 

  [00:02:33] Matt: We currently are operating under NCC 22. Yes. As of May, we're about to operate under N CCC 25. 

  [00:02:40] Villy: Yes. 

  [00:02:40] Matt: Depending on the state, I think. Mm-hmm. South Australia, the only one that are, aren't implementing this, is that correct?

  [00:02:46] Villy: I've heard Tasmania as well. Oh yeah. TAs questioning whether they wanna do it or not. 

  [00:02:50] Matt: Okay. But then it's gonna be frozen for three years. 

  [00:02:54] Villy: Minimum. Yeah, 

  [00:02:54] Matt: mini minimum. So we won't see any changes. Now, arguably you could say [00:03:00] that this is the most dangerous code. 

  [00:03:03] Villy: Sure. Potentially, yeah. 

  [00:03:04] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:03:05] Villy: Do a bit a step forward from the 2022 code in some regards.

  [00:03:11] But yeah, overall, 

  [00:03:12] Hamish: yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's probably important to say that a lot of the things we're gonna talk about today are our opinion. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, like I know, I understand there was a little bit of hesitation there when we kind of asked you a very sort of direct question about the code. I think let's just appreciate to all the listeners here that.

  [00:03:29] We can talk about our opinion and maybe some things that we would or wouldn't do, and you know, please don't hold us to anything. Do your own research, do your own, you know, investigations, things. You sound 

  [00:03:39] Matt: like a conspiracy theorist. They go do your own research. 

  [00:03:42] Hamish: No, I'm, I'm, all I'm just saying is I understand, you know, we're come really here under the Proclama brand right now and you know, I just want give you a little bit of freedom to kind of, you know, speak your mind a little bit about it and knowing that, you know, please don't hold us to anything, you know, if it's slightly wrong or, 

  [00:03:57] Matt: but, but as we've always said, even though Pro Clima a major [00:04:00] sponsor, like there's something that we'd never align with.

  [00:04:02] We'd say it openly. I, we just by chance, we line with everything because they're pushing the industry, which is why I asked the question, it's the most dangerous. Do you wanna explain why it could be dangerous? 

  [00:04:14] Villy: From what we are, uh, concerned about the weatherproofing side of things, air tightness, condensation management, weatherproofing took a big step back in the 2022 code.

  [00:04:24] So 2019 you had no option. You had to do a verification method. You had to do a performance solution at and use the tested system. What moved from 2019 to 2022 is it allowed certain cladding types, metal cladding types, and certain timber and masonries to not require a performance solution and just follow a very prescriptive standard, which had nothing to do with weatherproofing in the first place.

  [00:04:49] So suddenly projects could go ahead and install metal cladding according to the metal cladding code and assume that it was weatherproof, which was not [00:05:00] necessarily correct. We know that the weatherproof layer is the membrane layer, and those standards do not have anything about the membranes, uh, requirements.

  [00:05:07] So from our perspective, that was a big step backwards in the weatherproofing side of things, where the most damages come to in the first place commercially. Yeah. 

  [00:05:16] Matt: I think, I think what we need to understand and the biggest concept that our industry gets wrong is cladding isn't the weatherproofing system and we shouldn't be relying on our cladding to stop water 'cause it will leak no matter what.

  [00:05:28] Hamish: So, so I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a question. I, I actually know the answer to it. So, so what the NC 22 is assuming is that the cladding system is the weatherproof barrier? Is that what it's assuming 

  [00:05:40] Villy: the way the weatherproofing provisions are written? Yes. Yes. 

  [00:05:43] Hamish: And 

  [00:05:44] Matt: so what is NCC 2025? 

  [00:05:47] Villy: No changes. In terms of the, the weatherproofing side of things.

  [00:05:51] So these standards remain as a DTS pathway. 

  [00:05:54] Matt: So I, I, I understand as well when we push on some of these questions, because you, you guys are involved in some of the, the [00:06:00] conversations on the standards committees and stuff like that. Yeah. And you, there's probably certain things you can and can't say. 

  [00:06:05] Villy: Mm-hmm.

  [00:06:06] Matt: Have they recognized that this is a problem that, 

  [00:06:10] Villy: um, my boss, Jesse Clark would be sitting on is the one sitting on the BC and the Building Codes committees 

  [00:06:17] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:06:17] Villy: To, to say better whether they've recognized that or not. But I sitting, uh, me sitting on the standards Australia for the membrane standard.

  [00:06:26] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:06:26] Villy: We haven't got there yet, 

  [00:06:28] Matt: but, but the conversation's obviously been raised. Mm-hmm. So that they're aware then that it's a problem. 

  [00:06:32] Villy: Yes. So certainly the conversation is moving that everyone becomes, uh, aware that. Pressure is fully transferred onto the membrane. Membrane becomes the most crucial layer that we need to make sure is watertight and airtight and membranes have not been testing for water tightness and air tightness well enough so far.

  [00:06:52] Matt: So, and I think we should break this down in two conversation, tame mm-hmm. Walls and roof, because 

  [00:06:57] Villy: Fair. Yeah. 

  [00:06:58] Hamish: Sorry. You and I stick to two [00:07:00] conversations. Mm-hmm. 

  [00:07:03] Matt: Bill your record. There's like five conversations happening at once, if you're lucky. So 

  [00:07:06] Hamish: I've got like four different things written down on paper right now.

  [00:07:09] Like, I'm trying to work out where we're going here. I just joking. 

  [00:07:11] Matt: So if we, I think we'll start with, I would say the industry as a broad community of kind of worked out walls, have we not? Yeah. Like 

  [00:07:21] Villy: residentially, right? Yeah. 

  [00:07:22] Matt: Yeah. I think, yeah. I, I wanna stick more to residential Sure. For the minute, because commercially I, I need to do a bit more prep on that.

  [00:07:30] Mm-hmm. Um, but the, what, what I see is, I think everyone, maybe again, we're in the bubble. But we understand the quality membrane on the outside, and we both openly use promera and have for 10 plus years ventilation. Batten system can't go wrong. Yeah, 

  [00:07:46] Villy: yeah. 

  [00:07:46] Matt: Um, taping windows, all that. 

  [00:07:48] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:07:48] Matt: Where I see the problem is the roof.

  [00:07:50] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:07:51] Matt: And I think there's a few clauses in this current NCC, which scare me. Mm-hmm. Um, but also we still, and I won't use brand specific, you see the [00:08:00] installation that's foil with the insulation attached to it. The anticon, 

  [00:08:04] Hamish: you can call it anticon. 

  [00:08:04] Matt: Anticon, yeah. That from my understanding, is probably, well, if you install it now correctly, it's not doing its job.

  [00:08:13] Or if you then don't install it. What am I trying to say here? It just shouldn't be used. But if you install it in, if you install it correctly, it's not having any benefit to the building. But then why aren't we then looking at complete wrapping a 

  [00:08:29] Hamish: roof? Hang, can you stop on that for a second? Sorry. You are saying if it's not, if it installed correctly, it's not having any impact on the thermal performance in the home.

  [00:08:36] No, it's not. Why? 

  [00:08:37] Matt: Because you've got the Batten system that you've gotta follow the ventilation system and then the moment that you have insulation with the Batten system and it's not still there, it's not doing anything. 

  [00:08:45] Hamish: Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah. 'cause I don't actually think the code, um, also specifies that you need to put a class four building wrap on your roof either.

  [00:08:54] Villy: If so, let's delineate already. So if you're talking about Trus roofs where installation is [00:09:00] sitting on ceiling level. Yep. Yeah. So, and the ceiling is not parallel to the roof plane. 

  [00:09:04] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:09:05] Villy: You can put whatever you want on the top of your roof structure. That could be. Anticon fully vapor barrier, or it could be a class four membrane and you, you still comply.

  [00:09:15] Hamish: Okay. 

  [00:09:15] Villy: As long as you ventilate that place in the, in the climate zone, in the cold climates. Yeah. 

  [00:09:20] Matt: So, 

  [00:09:20] Hamish: yeah. So how does that, how does that work then? If you've got a warm roof scenario, 

  [00:09:24] Villy: warm roof scenario where you have a rafter type roof insulation between the rafters and you protect your membrane, uh, your structure with the membrane and fill the full depth of those rafters with insulation, then that membrane should be highly vapor permeable.

  [00:09:37] Matt: Yep. But, uh, so okay, maybe go back maybe to recorrect my statement then. It's on a pitch rafter of like a, what we would traditionally call a warm roof, where the anticon then isn't 

  [00:09:48] Villy: you? Like it's 

  [00:09:49] Matt: not actually doing anything. 

  [00:09:51] Villy: No. Yeah. 

  [00:09:52] Hamish: And I know you and I like to shoot can, um, the star rating, but by then putting, uh, [00:10:00] anticon on top of that.

  [00:10:01] That can then add to your star rating or your R values and your roof. 

  [00:10:04] Matt: But the installation has a gag. It's the air gap 

  [00:10:06] Hamish: system. No, I, I understand. I understand that. It's, but I, I'm just system, I'm pointing out a floor in the system. Yeah, yeah. Because, because you're saying that this is gonna be R one. 

  [00:10:13] Matt: Yeah.

  [00:10:13] Mm-hmm. 

  [00:10:13] Hamish: And then you are like screwing your roof hard down on top of the compressing and compressing it all down. 

  [00:10:18] Matt: And, and, and we're not, this conversation isn't like around that Proclama products are the only solution. Mm-hmm. What we wanna do is point out the big changes that are coming, because I go back to my common, my comment is it's a dangerous code.

  [00:10:32] Yes. So what I want to, so let, let, let's, this is like, uh, brains are, bring 

  [00:10:39] Hamish: it 

  [00:10:39] back, 

  [00:10:39] Matt: man. Let, let, let's go back. Bring it back. You guys are laughing already. Um, so the, the, um, the roof I want to touch on, because one of the biggest changes that we have coming on is that we've got a, we, what, what I understand, especially the trust roof, and it's currently part of the code.

  [00:10:58] Villy: Mm. 

  [00:10:58] Matt: Is we technically [00:11:00] can't wrap a roof continuously. 

  [00:11:01] Villy: No. You can't link the wall membrane to the roof membrane. Keeping an air tight at air tight attic space while keeping your insulation at ceiling level. 

  [00:11:12] Hamish: Yeah. And that, and that's, that's, that's the real clincher. You do it, but you need to push your insulation to the underside of the roof sheets 

  [00:11:20] Villy: somehow 

  [00:11:21] Matt: and Yeah.

  [00:11:21] Which, which again, then you compromise the installation of the installation. It's not continuous. So we have other problems that we introduced, but we're now allowing the building not to be airtight potentially. 

  [00:11:30] Villy: Yeah, of course. 

  [00:11:31] Matt: And what issues would that cause? 

  [00:11:34] Villy: Well first, you're not allowing the building to be, to not be airtight.

  [00:11:40] If you dedicate an air tightness controller on the inside of the structure Yeah. Fully wrapped three, three dimensionally across the warm side of the installation, then you're gonna achieve a pretty 

  [00:11:49] Matt: intel 

  [00:11:49] Villy: Yeah. Airtight structure. Yeah. Intel. But they, intel needs to run on the underside of your bottom core crosses.

  [00:11:54] Right. But. Let's be honest. No, that's not the majority of the construction, right? If you don't do [00:12:00] that, yes, you're gonna have a leaky construction, especially a leaky ceiling. So hot, humid air will rise up and will find its way through gaps and cracks and especially downlights and everything. So it's gonna pass through a thick bat of installation, sitting on the ceiling level, everything fully air permeable and vapor permeable, and it to start going towards the code elements of the structure upwards.

  [00:12:19] That's the trusses and whatever goes at the top, whether that's the underside of the anticon or the roof sheet straight away. 

  [00:12:26] Matt: So, so we can go back, let's even go back a step here as well. What, what's the, what ultimately is the reason Pro Clima here? 

  [00:12:35] Villy: Healthy, durable, and energy efficient buildings. 

  [00:12:38] Matt: So durable.

  [00:12:39] Villy: Durable. Yeah. 

  [00:12:39] Matt: So durable's a real key word here. Mm-hmm. Because if we're not wrapping continuously, water kills buildings. 

  [00:12:45] Villy: Exactly. 

  [00:12:46] Matt: So do you think this is a huge F floor on the code? 

  [00:12:50] Hamish: You can speak on behalf of Vian, not on behalf of Pro Clima right now, if you 

  [00:12:53] Villy: wanna Yeah, of course. It in, in general, building a trust roof in that configuration is [00:13:00] suboptimal building practice, period.

  [00:13:02] Like this is 

  [00:13:03] Hamish: by, by having the insulation on, on top of the 

  [00:13:06] Villy: plasterboard. Yeah, yeah. On top of the plasterboard. And then allowing air to freely escape into your coat attic space. 

  [00:13:12] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:13:13] Villy: Um, have I seen too many damages and stuff? I don't, haven't been on site enough to see this, but I'm hearing scenarios, especially in the cold climates where structures rot, mold develops.

  [00:13:26] Um, we've seen a lot of documented evidence in North America where this thing can happen when you ventilate that roof, get in that, uh, cold, but moist air from outside hitting, uh, structures that go beyond ambient condition. And then you form condensation and mold growth over time on the other side of the roof sheet or on the other side of the membrane there.

  [00:13:46] So, 

  [00:13:46] Matt: so 

  [00:13:47] Villy: not ideal. 

  [00:13:47] Matt: So did these buildings have in tallow. 

  [00:13:50] Villy: No. 

  [00:13:51] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And do they have mechanical ventilation 

  [00:13:54] Villy: mostly? No. 

  [00:13:54] Matt: Yeah. So to make 

  [00:13:55] Hamish: the assumption that they code built house. 

  [00:13:57] Matt: Yeah. So, so, so which, which then I'd agreed that [00:14:00] clause makes sense for a code built house. That makes sense. I feel like if you were to have mechanical ventilation in and in Talo 

  [00:14:06] Villy: mm-hmm.

  [00:14:06] Matt: The problem, it's not a problem. Having said that, there's no way to potential, like your wfi doesn't give us that three day structure. 

  [00:14:14] Villy: Yeah, well that's correct. We can't do a reliable wfi calculation with a uninvented attic space. It's a way too much air that can behave radically in real life. And WFI can't account for this.

  [00:14:27] Um, the only way to do this is proper real life experimental study. Like I know some people has done CFD computational fluid dynamics calculations to assess what might happen. 

  [00:14:36] Matt: Sorry, what was that? What calculation? 

  [00:14:38] Villy: Computational fluid dynamics. 

  [00:14:41] Matt: You wanna get, do you wanna maybe 

  [00:14:42] Villy: comp C, FD? No, 

  [00:14:43] Hamish: no, but like, no, for like us.

  [00:14:44] Villy: Yeah. So this is, um, as, as you assign boundary conditions of this is house, this is outdoor air, this is air coming in, air getting out, and then you let the simulation predict how the air movement will behaves in terms of, in terms of its velocity and [00:15:00] temperature changes. 

  [00:15:00] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:15:01] Villy: It's a lot more, it's, it's kind of dividing everything into small pieces, um, to assess, sell by sale, what's gonna happen, which is not how Wfi works.

  [00:15:08] Matt: And have you done that on this situation before? 

  [00:15:10] Villy: No. 

  [00:15:11] Matt: Okay. 

  [00:15:11] Villy: I've done this on much larger scales, like assisting ventilation, car parks, or data centers or stuff like that, not roofs. 

  [00:15:17] Matt: Yeah, 

  [00:15:18] Hamish: I know, I know that cla, I know that Clarence and Mark Bury have done a lot of work on like existing buildings in Tassie around this, this exact stuff like real life experience.

  [00:15:30] Yeah. 

  [00:15:30] Villy: Ing the University of Wollongong has been performing some CFD calculations and trying to link it back to a. Rio building that are experimentally measuring things and assessing. Can you open it only on the eaves? Can you open it only at the ridge? Do you need to open it top and bottom? 

  [00:15:46] Matt: Are these studies funded by certain companies or are they're actually independent?

  [00:15:50] Villy: Of course they're funded. 

  [00:15:51] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, they 

  [00:15:51] Villy: work for free. Yeah. 

  [00:15:52] Matt: Yeah, I know, but like at the end of the day, like who's fund, like who's funding? Because if that's the, 

  [00:15:57] Villy: the steel industry. 

  [00:15:59] Matt: [00:16:00] Okay, cool. I'm gonna 

  [00:16:00] Villy: show you the well led that the steels do not well led rust. The, the structure. Yeah. 

  [00:16:05] Matt: Yeah. So if the information comes out, that's not beneficial to their product.

  [00:16:08] It's not gonna be, what do we call the blue scope steel rule? 

  [00:16:11] Villy: I don't know who exactly the brand is. Yeah, 

  [00:16:14] Matt: I'll say it. No, I can say that's exactly what was called out the Busy Building Physics forum a few years ago. They, they raised this issue multiple times, and I think it was Mark, I won't, don't quote me.

  [00:16:24] It was someone kept like, who's funded the study and then you would see them try void. He's like, just answer the question. And it was really confronting when they would say who it was. And it's like, cool. And, and, and I, and I understand that some people. Um, someone has to fund them. I totally understand it, and this probably goes back to our conversation with Ariana is like, but shouldn't all these, if you're using a university to, to a study that then should become public information no matter what.

  [00:16:48] If you were to do it yourself. Yeah. You can hide the information, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, cool. We, we hit that topic. Interesting. 

  [00:16:57] Hamish: Here's a question. How does, how does pro like a, a company [00:17:00] like Pro Klima go about solving these problems? 

  [00:17:03] Villy: Well, first and foremost, it's education. Like, you don't know what you don't know, and there are many people that you see in the industry.

  [00:17:10] Um, architects and designers who I find are still confused of the role of membranes in, in buildings. They said, I'm, I'm putting a membrane to stop condensation. Okay. We we're talking in tele maybe, but you're not putting an external membrane to stop condensation. This is kind of the, the biggest misconception I find.

  [00:17:29] You're putting that membrane. To protect that structure. And the risks of condensation are much, much, much lower compared to what it used to be back in the day when that membrane was a foil. 

  [00:17:40] Matt: And this is where I get back to the durability. If we're gonna start leaving bits and pieces of the membrane off 

  [00:17:45] Villy: mm-hmm.

  [00:17:46] Matt: Yeah. We might allowed to vent, but you know what's gonna happen? Water's gonna get in. 

  [00:17:49] Villy: Yeah, exactly. And this is, 

  [00:17:51] Matt: and wind washing too. That's, we haven't touched on that 

  [00:17:53] Villy: topic. Yeah, of course. Um, and talking about the mo, the code being dangerous, like the words [00:18:00] membranes, it's a deemed to satisfy pathway for weatherproofing, if you choose to use a membrane, means you don't need to use a membrane.

  [00:18:07] So you can still build a house with no membrane, walls, or roofs. 

  [00:18:11] Hamish: When you, when you say no memory are, you're talking about like a class four building wrap. 

  [00:18:16] Villy: Yeah, yeah. That's what 

  [00:18:16] Hamish: mean. Yeah. So you can still choose to build a house without it. 

  [00:18:19] Villy: Without it, yeah. 

  [00:18:20] Hamish: But 

  [00:18:20] Matt: which makes sense. Like think about hemp. You built, you built.

  [00:18:24] Hamish: A hemp house. Yeah, but he, yeah, but that's probably that you're probably gonna have a performance solution based off that. 

  [00:18:29] Villy: Yeah, 

  [00:18:29] Hamish: yeah, yeah, yeah. 

  [00:18:30] Villy: Yep. A hemp is gonna be a performance solution. The masonary and concrete buildings will be exempt from the condensation provisions. 

  [00:18:36] Hamish: Wait, wait, wait. What? 

  [00:18:38] Villy: Why they masonary and concrete?

  [00:18:39] Why they, ah, yeah. The physics don't apply to concrete. I dunno why they're not, uh, it's saying it's 

  [00:18:45] Hamish: pretty you folks. Physics does not apply to concrete. 

  [00:18:49] Matt: So wait, but the brick, 

  [00:18:53] Hamish: so, okay, so, so does that then, okay. I can understand why they might do that. 'cause you've got wa which builds double brick, 

  [00:18:58] Matt: so they wanna just, which kind of makes sense.

  [00:18:59] [00:19:00] It's just the big companies wanna protect their product. Let's just say it. 

  [00:19:02] Hamish: Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, 

  [00:19:03] Matt: we're not saying which ones. 

  [00:19:05] Villy: Yeah. The thing is, if you start talking single skin masonry, so what's your interpretation of this? Brick venet. 

  [00:19:15] Matt: Brick vene. Yeah. But 

  [00:19:15] Villy: that's, 

  [00:19:16] Matt: yeah. 

  [00:19:16] Villy: Do you need to protect the frame? Behind the brick vene construction.

  [00:19:20] Matt: Yeah. 'cause you've got, if it's an unsealed brick, like an old porous brick, the pressure's gonna push moisture from out to end. 

  [00:19:25] Villy: Of course. Yeah. That happens. It's gonna push that moisture in. It's obviously a structure is fully exposed, uh, during construction to start with. Yeah. And then you have, we holes that equalized pressure straight onto whatever the next layer is, which is a pla bot.

  [00:19:40] Right? 

  [00:19:40] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:19:41] Villy: Um, also you have gaps and cracks and around the window open, uh, window penetrations and stuff that you Not with the Pro Clima 

  [00:19:48] Hamish: products. Yeah. You use the 

  [00:19:49] Villy: prom. Yeah. Yeah. But no, we host that water can be driven inward somehow at some point. Yeah. 

  [00:19:54] Hamish: Yeah. We're talking specifically about a brick veneer right now.

  [00:19:59] Villy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:00] Then what about concrete Precast Concrete institute? Concrete block work, permanent stop. It's still porous. It's still quite porous, but this kind of constructions do not have we holes do not have drain and ventilated cavity. The concrete is the structure, is the aesthetic. Is the weatherproofing all in one goal?

  [00:20:17] So whatever is on the inside of that is technically, uh, protected. However, people want to keep that concrete look on the outside and they put the insulation on the inside, and this is where you have the most dangerous situation internally, insulated concrete with nothing to, to protect your concrete meaning hot, humid, air from outside past the installation, gets into the code, concrete face straightaway, condensation and lots of mode.

  [00:20:43] Hamish: Would it, would it not be more of an issue from the inside with, with the condition air from the inside then coming and meeting, I guess that internal face of the concrete? 

  [00:20:52] Villy: Exactly. Yeah, that's the problem, yeah. Okay. But this is why the statement says you don't need to use a membrane there, [00:21:00] because what the, the, the idea of membrane in the code away for now is that sits on the outside of the installation.

  [00:21:06] So you have concrete installation, putting a membrane on the outside of that installation will not do anything. You're not protecting anything because your concrete is fully sealed up. It's protecting your structure. So putting that membrane is a impractical. You can't do that and B, it's not gonna be useful at all.

  [00:21:22] So it kind of giving you a free pass to not do anything. 

  [00:21:25] Hamish: So that scenario, to make that scenario safe, where you've got insitu concrete and then an insulated wall on the inside, would you then be suggesting that use in intelo 

  [00:21:33] Villy: a hundred percent in the code of climates, you can't make that wall work without an internal vapor controller?

  [00:21:39] Yeah. Allowing so much in and, and 

  [00:21:40] Matt: especially now that concrete buildings are becoming a way more airtight, the way that we build. 

  [00:21:44] Villy: Yes. 

  [00:21:45] Matt: So in a more initiative, people start cooking and showering. That m has gotta go somewhere. Yep. 

  [00:21:50] Villy: Theoretically build the concrete, install the windows and seal them up. Do a blow door test.

  [00:21:57] Now put your in, intelo in after [00:22:00] your frame and installation is in, do in Intelo in and do another blow test. Blow a door. You're probably not gonna see any difference. It's equally as air tight. 

  [00:22:06] Matt: So you are saying in this situation it should, so from outside to inside should be concrete then in intelo, then in installation or then or concrete installation in Intelo.

  [00:22:16] Villy: The ladder. 

  [00:22:16] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:22:17] Villy: Concrete installation. Intel. So that intel stops the air. Yeah. And vapor migrating through the installation, hitting the concrete. And this is the most compromised scenario. Like we need to understand that this is how Wfi was born in the first place. Like when Germans started renovating heritage buildings and they started bringing energy efficiency to the equation.

  [00:22:36] Of course they wanted to keep the look of the old masonry on the outside. Yeah. The only problem, the only solution was to put the insulation on the inside, put it on problems started occurring. They get involved with the building physics side of things to assess why this is happening. And that's where Wfi was born, to assess the movements of moisture and how to solve it.

  [00:22:55] The ultimate scenario is. Put everything on the outside to keep that concrete warm. 

  [00:22:59] Matt: So you [00:23:00] go back to the conversation before, what did you say? That you can't have an air tightness on the outside of the building. What'd you say? You said something along, 

  [00:23:08] Villy: ah, you need to have the membrane being watertight and airtight on the outside to pressure equalize.

  [00:23:12] Matt: Yeah, yeah. 

  [00:23:13] Villy: The pressure. 

  [00:23:13] Matt: Yeah, because you, well, ultimately if we, if we built completely airtight, like I, um, to me, imagine a building, everything's fully sheathed and fully adhered. Mm-hmm. That's perfect. 

  [00:23:25] Villy: It's pretty airtight. 

  [00:23:26] Matt: And then you insulate then on the outside of that, 

  [00:23:28] Villy: yeah, that's the, 

  [00:23:29] Matt: like it could, yeah, you could use a rock wall that you got behind you, or wood fiberboard 

  [00:23:33] Villy: wood fiber on the lower rise buildings.

  [00:23:35] No problem. Yeah. 

  [00:23:35] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:23:36] Villy: It's a good solution for sure. That's 

  [00:23:37] Matt: the ultimate. 

  [00:23:38] Hamish: Mm-hmm. So we've got, we've got two scenarios behind us, both test certified systems. Yeah. Um, I understand external rock wall. I'm actually pointed behind me and there's, there's two, you know, two stands behind me. One's got external insulation on a hero.

  [00:23:52] The other one is, doesn't have external insulation like. Intuitively, I'm looking at this one here without the external [00:24:00] insulation with a steel frame. Mm-hmm. I understand why it's steel. 'cause we got it's commercial. 

  [00:24:03] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:24:04] Hamish: Um, in my mind that's a risk of condensation. 

  [00:24:10] Villy: Is it? 

  [00:24:10] Hamish: I dunno, it just in my mind, if you've, you in, 

  [00:24:14] Matt: on the inside.

  [00:24:15] Villy: Yeah. So 

  [00:24:15] Hamish: let's, yeah. But, but I'm, I'm talking about like, is that, is that still frame gonna start condensating? 

  [00:24:20] Villy: So let's, let's think about what happens. Yeah, that's 

  [00:24:22] Hamish: a good 

  [00:24:22] Villy: one. Okay. So the, the, the, the risks of condensation are there, but the more problematic part here is thermo bridging. That they're gonna occur through the thermo, through the steel, right?

  [00:24:31] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:24:32] Villy: So if you imagine a two, uh, a thermal calculation of this, you have the steel frame with insulation in between. So the, the path of heat resistance through the insulation is much harder for heat to escape than through the steel. So actually the steel access, a hot bridge if winter, hot, warm inside, cold outside, you losing a lot of heat through the steel.

  [00:24:56] So actually the outside of the steel, the where it [00:25:00] touches the membrane or the board is warm. Is warm. Okay. So the risks of hot, humid air heating, that is 

  [00:25:05] Hamish: interesting. 

  [00:25:05] Villy: Lower, technically the problem. 'cause it's 

  [00:25:08] Hamish: warm. '

  [00:25:08] Villy: cause it's warm. 'cause you're losing heat through it. Huh. However, the inside of the steel frame is colder on that plasterboard layer.

  [00:25:17] And if that's too code, then you're gonna get something interesting. So you get what's called ghosting. Yeah. You see images of black stripes across the plasterboard. Yeah. So the code steel allows and this is interesting. Okay. So getting a little bit, I love this nerdy physics here. Okay. Yeah. This is 

  [00:25:36] Hamish: good.

  [00:25:36] Villy: This is this. So when you have a cold strip, suddenly you start seeing black spots. 

  [00:25:42] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:25:42] Villy: Where, what are these black spots? Initially everyone thinks this is mold. Yeah. 

  [00:25:46] Matt: Water. 

  [00:25:47] Villy: Water. Where are from 

  [00:25:49] Matt: the condensation from the, well, the inside the. I 

  [00:25:52] Villy: if it's really bad, potentially it's gonna get there, right? It's gonna be so cold on that steel.

  [00:25:57] That hot, humid air is gonna hit that spot and [00:26:00] condense in all long-term form mode initially on the back of the plaster board and later on it's gonna propagate. But what you see on the internal phase of the plaster board is a black stripe is actually dust particles. Okay? It's dust particles from the air.

  [00:26:15] Especially if you people are smoking indoors or burning a lot of candles. All these fumes will get attracted through the cold surface due to a phenomenon cold. The Brownian motion, okay, you want a bit of history here, brown and somebody, brown was actually a bot. Botanist. 

  [00:26:35] Hamish: Botanist, yeah. 

  [00:26:36] Villy: Botanist, yeah. Not anything to do with physics or chemistry.

  [00:26:39] Yeah. Then he found out through whatever he was doing with plants that when things get cold, nature naturally slows things down. So this is what causing, uh, this problem. So the surface is code. Therefore movement of stuff in the air wants to slow down. And that's how the dust particles that they're actively moving in the air get attracted to a [00:27:00] surface and stay there.

  [00:27:01] Matt: Huh. So we have some pretty smart people in this podcast. Wow. I don't think we've ever had something so smart. 

  [00:27:06] Hamish: Yeah. And look, and I didn't and I, I brought that up before not to try and catch anything out. 'cause I know that there's a lot of research that have gone into these two certified systems. Yes. And let, I just want to re you know, reemphasize that these a 

  [00:27:18] Matt: durability, not an energy efficiency perspective.

  [00:27:19] Hamish: Yeah. Dur, yeah. Durability. So Pro Climas obviously not gonna put their name on a system if it's not gonna work, but mm-hmm. As I said, I look at that and go, oh, that's a thermal bridge. So it's really interesting that, um, that you'll consider that outer edge warm because of the habitants inside or living inside.

  [00:27:35] Yeah. Okay. Interesting. 

  [00:27:36] Villy: But we can go through why, why we are here. So where we are today in the commercial level side and mostly what, where re is you have flexible membrane on the outside of a structure. Yeah. Flexible membrane. Once you go really high in the buildings and especially in the high wind zone scenarios, these membranes, pillow in and out quite a lot.

  [00:27:53] Matt: Yes. 

  [00:27:54] Villy: You're gonna risk the every time that membrane is secured to the frame somehow via fastener [00:28:00] to pillow in and out. This 

  [00:28:00] Matt: is a great, yeah. Okay, so 

  [00:28:02] Villy: let's just finish this and then we can Yeah, no, this is good. Yeah. So to to account for this, we are moving on to a rigid board scenario. You put external grade non-combustible boards, is 

  [00:28:12] Matt: that the 

  [00:28:12] Villy: c?

  [00:28:13] It's either the c weather defense, external grade gypsum, or any of the fiber cement products that could be put as well. So this is what, uh, gonna, where the pressure is gonna land from that building, right? The wind, it's not gonna allow any pillow in and out. That port on its own is not weather tight.

  [00:28:28] Obviously, to start with, you need to tape every joint of every sheet of, of, of board. But we know this is not enough from experience. The New Zealand, there's the North Americans, the uk, we see that simply taping is not enough. You see corners keep chipping off boards crack, especially when buildings move or excessive pressures hit the building.

  [00:28:46] That's why we put full adhesive membrane full coverage of that board 

  [00:28:50] Matt: everywhere. So, so the here has more flexibility than say, the Asana? 

  [00:28:56] Villy: No, no, not really. 

  [00:28:58] Matt: As you use, it's like the sheathing, [00:29:00] it's like the structural bracing essentially. 

  [00:29:01] Villy: Yeah. But the the, the board itself doesn't deflect. 

  [00:29:05] Matt: Yeah. Okay. 

  [00:29:05] Villy: It all underwent.

  [00:29:06] Yeah. So this is where we wanna move as the next step from the flexible system and high pressure, high high-rise scenarios to a rigid board system as a more durable weather tight solution. And we still keeping frame. 'cause that's when the only thing you're allowed to build on high-rise. And once we get that going, then we look into the better way of doing it.

  [00:29:25] And that is by putting the insulation on the outside to mitigate the effects of thermo, bridging the steel causes. 

  [00:29:30] Hamish: Yep. Yep. So, so the major difference between the two systems is that the one with the external insulation is, is focusing on thermal performance, whereas the other one is just solving a problem.

  [00:29:40] Villy: Exactly. Yeah. So that's the weather tight side of things is the, yep. Fully tight. So once you add the Roku, you can, uh, take the four main adv main advantages that you're gonna see immediately. First, of course, thermally, it's gonna be much better, you have more installation and you've mitigated the thermal.

  [00:29:56] Bridging The wall performs much better thermally. Second, [00:30:00] you've actually improved the weatherproofing, whether you believe it or not. Um, it's, you almost don't get any water past the waterproof, uh, the wall rock layer. And of course, two more things we rarely talk about, but this is fire resilience and acoustic performance Yeah.

  [00:30:13] Is also greatly improved as well. 

  [00:30:16] Hamish: So, and, and what, like, what would people normally be doing in this scenario? Because obviously this is a certified 

  [00:30:24] Matt: systeming. 

  [00:30:24] Hamish: Yeah. So what would you normally see here? Steel. Steel frame and then what Matt says. Yeah, like what, what do they, what would you normally do if 

  [00:30:32] Villy: flexible membrane on the outside of the steel frame?

  [00:30:34] Like what's a flexible 

  [00:30:35] Matt: membrane? Like 

  [00:30:36] Villy: flex could be the asana. The last four extra. 

  [00:30:39] Matt: Yeah. Okay. 

  [00:30:39] Villy: Yeah. For majority of the projects that we see, yes. No, but could be any cheaper alternative competitors that, 

  [00:30:46] Matt: and I think the other thing to mention that makes it is really important is the UV exposure. 

  [00:30:51] Villy: Yeah, of course.

  [00:30:51] Matt: So like, you guys have 180 days. 

  [00:30:53] Villy: 180 days 

  [00:30:54] Matt: tested. 

  [00:30:55] Villy: Yeah. And 

  [00:30:55] Matt: what I learned during the week is that it's not [00:31:00] the, with your one, and you can correct me here if I'm wrong, with the 180 days, the water tightness won't change. It'll stay pretty well. It actually just loses its air tightness. Is that correct? After 180 days?

  [00:31:12] Villy: Mm. Good question. So let, let's, let's, uh, dive a little bit deeper here. So first, what the requirements in the, about. Uh, membranes and tested before and after uv. The 4,200 part one standard is very vague around that, puts it in a chamber for 500 hours and doesn't equate this to real life. So actually following brand protocols for now, but I can tell you, being on the standards committee for the next revision of the 4,200, we are in much deeper conversations on how to make this a lot more relevant to the industry and, and how to make it better.

  [00:31:45] Matt: And there's a lot of brands out there claiming 180 days that aren't providing testing. I don't know. You can't comment on that 

  [00:31:52] Villy: exactly. No, but the, the, the thing is tested to what is what everyone is gonna question and you can technically say whatever you want if you're not, [00:32:00] um, 

  [00:32:00] Matt: tested to Matt and Hamish's standard and we say it's 180 days.

  [00:32:03] Yeah. So, 

  [00:32:03] Villy: yeah. So, okay, we tested, but what do you need to do before and after you, you test your unaged material, so brand new from the production line, you age it. Naturally or artificially in the chamber. What do you test after? Currently, you only ask to test one of two mechanical properties for either tenile strength or birth strength, where a boat push pushes through the membrane.

  [00:32:24] Matt: So you look pretty big. You've been at the gym. Do you sit there and you punching 

  [00:32:26] Villy: them? You need to make sure that the, the membrane retains 85% of its strength, and if you do this, you technically pass. But for us to, to, to follow the brand's protocols, we had to prove that both the unaged and the aged did not, did not leak water.

  [00:32:41] So maintain its water resistant properties, um, remained its strength for all strength parameters and also maintain its area is air resistance. Now this is a big can of worms air. The way we test air resistance is very outdated. The test standard for air barriers [00:33:00] is. It is meant for old paper-based products, which were expected to have some form of air leakage through them.

  [00:33:08] So when we test any of our products for, according to this air tightness test, we get like below 0.1 means that you, you can't measure anything. Nothing leaks at all. So let's say to pass this test as an air barrier is very easy for our membranes. Yeah. That's why, again, this is another thing we're looking into putting a lot more relevant and applicable air tightness standards.

  [00:33:30] So going back to your statement, does the membrane loses its air tightness capabilities after UV aging? I don't think so. It still remains a good water barrier. It still remains a good air barrier. What happens is it becomes more vapor permeable. 'cause the UV to a certain degree degrades the functional layer on the inside, which is the most resistance to vapor.

  [00:33:51] So it kind of becomes hyperpermeable class four membrane, which by the way brings you to a very important uh, topic. What about the tropics where. [00:34:00] You need a vapor barrier on the outside, but then you a class two vapor barrier and you expose it for 180 days and suddenly this thing became more permeable.

  [00:34:09] So not class three, maybe even class four. Membrane becomes um, one how for even one quarter of its vapor resistance, suddenly you're wrapping up buildings in the tropics that does not perform like you wanted to, to perform with the vapor barrier. 

  [00:34:24] Matt: Can we? So Jesus, this is awesome. I love it. So two parts here.

  [00:34:28] Let, let, let's go into tropics in a second. 

  [00:34:30] Villy: Yeah, sure. 

  [00:34:31] Matt: With the membranes like hype, have you guys actually tested it and go, when did it, like, would it fail like actually really fail because you got like your 180 days and know that's what you guys guarantee? I'd be confident last year. Have you actually ever tested to be go like, oh, it would still perform well after four years out in the sun.

  [00:34:49] Like I know you would never commit to that. Have you guys just for shits and gigs. 

  [00:34:52] Villy: Um, so first. To do this in real life. Oh, to get a better understanding, you better put it in real life because a, to do [00:35:00] such a long duration in the machine is gonna be very expensive and costly. And um, also, it's gonna take a long time.

  [00:35:06] So I can tell you what's happening in, in Germany from one our founder, curiosity. 

  [00:35:12] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:35:12] Villy: We've had some of the mental products, specifically the roof product. 

  [00:35:16] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:35:16] Villy: Sitting on the roof for many years and then every now and then at the one year mark, at one year and a half, at two years, they cut a small piece and go and test what happens.

  [00:35:25] Yeah. It's been many years before. They might see that it no longer holds the water. And by the way, by holding water. I'm trying, I'm referring to. Australian standard asks you to hold a hundred mil head of water one KPA German standard asks you to hold 10,000 mil 10 meters of water. 

  [00:35:42] Matt: So that's, imagine like A-U-P-V-C pipe that's 10 meters high.

  [00:35:46] Yeah. Full of water compared to a hundred mil. 

  [00:35:48] Villy: A hundred mil, yeah. For 24 hours. What? Yeah, the requirement with the requirements we pass water barrier are a hundred times more than what we need to pass. So, 

  [00:35:56] Matt: so hypothetically it would last another hundred times past that [00:36:00] for the Australian standards. 

  [00:36:01] Villy: Ah, I dunno if you can do the same.

  [00:36:02] Yeah, I know, but like, 

  [00:36:03] Hamish: and, and the products that we're getting here from Proclama, those products that are being tested to those standards. 

  [00:36:11] Villy: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Because these products come from Germany, tested to the German standards and Yeah. 

  [00:36:15] Hamish: Yeah. So they're not, they're not a hundred percent tailored to our market, like the actual products.

  [00:36:18] These are the pro, these are the actual products that are getting tested in Germany. Yeah. So the same ment that I'm buying in Germany is the same ment I'm buying in New Zealand, same ment than buying here. 

  [00:36:27] Villy: The Asana is slightly different because first they don't do much, um, of flexible stuff on the outside.

  [00:36:33] And if they do, they may be using some of the mental products. Exa was specifically developed for the Australian market. Okay. Just to be Blue, New Zealand, Australia, and New Zealand. But yeah. 

  [00:36:42] Matt: So now heading back to the tropics, and now you've got another good point. 

  [00:36:45] Hamish: And sorry, just on the color. Is the, does the color mean anything?

  [00:36:47] Yes. 

  [00:36:48] Villy: Um, not much. Um, perhaps thermal efficiency. Temperature could get in, uh, during construction, like for 

  [00:36:55] Matt: the, um, oh, what's the term? Oh, what 

  [00:36:59] Villy: am I about [00:37:00] Reflection. Yeah. Reflected. That's, yeah. 

  [00:37:00] Matt: That's the 

  [00:37:01] Villy: very little, like when you put a cladding on the front or a roof sheet on the, on the roof and you have this air gap, a little bit will be reflected.

  [00:37:07] It'll only make sense if it's very shiny. It'll only make a big difference. This is very shame. So we 

  [00:37:12] Matt: can get pinks and yellows and oranges. 

  [00:37:15] Villy: You can, yeah. 

  [00:37:15] Matt: Lighter, lighter, louder, lighter colors don't perform as well. 

  [00:37:20] Villy: Not perform as well under uv. Yeah. So then you can get, might get, uh, more damage from uv. Um, but then 

  [00:37:27] Matt: from the opposite, like the black would attract it, 

  [00:37:29] Villy: then the, the new problem, if it's black, it gets too hot.

  [00:37:32] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:37:33] Villy: If it's exposed for too long. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you want to kind of find the middle ground and say sometimes lighter black, darker grayish into dark blue is what, uh, works best. 

  [00:37:43] Matt: So now back to the tropics. Yeah. We, when you talk about like, if they're extending out, they're becoming even vapor, more vapor permeable.

  [00:37:49] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:37:50] Matt: Now we don't build on the tropics. And I find this fascinating 'cause we don't, you, you kind of wanna learn, but you're kind of not forced to being from Victoria to, to building their climate. Yeah. But I [00:38:00] actually find it, and I constantly say it's like Queensland live like New Zealand is probably 10 years ahead of us.

  [00:38:07] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:38:07] Matt: Who are like 30 years behind Europe. Queensland's another 30 years behind Victoria. 

  [00:38:11] Villy: Oh, probably, yeah. 

  [00:38:13] Matt: Like they're still stuck in the dark age and Hello? All 

  [00:38:16] Hamish: our Queensland 

  [00:38:17] Matt: Austral. Yeah. I think the spice girls just come out in Queensland. So, uh, but the tropics I want talk about, 'cause there's a whole misconception that like, oh, we don't, we don't need to worry about this stuff.

  [00:38:26] We got warm weather. But you're dealing with a completely different problem. You're dealing with humidity. 

  [00:38:32] Villy: Yeah. Loads of humidity. Yeah. 

  [00:38:34] Matt: Yeah. So you wanna sort of more go into deep, do you wanna nerd out on, is it d What's the It's a blue plot. Uh, the green product. 

  [00:38:40] Villy: The green DA product. Yeah. Class two vapor barrier.

  [00:38:42] Uh, yeah. Class two. Vapor barrier technically. 

  [00:38:45] Matt: And what's the diff So what class two means it's less vapor permeable compared to class four? 

  [00:38:51] Villy: Yeah. Much, much less 

  [00:38:52] Matt: So, less vapor moves through. So going back to the old days, like a silver sharking, they all basically [00:39:00] favor blockers 

  [00:39:00] Villy: Class one. Most of them. 

  [00:39:02] Matt: Yeah.

  [00:39:02] Villy: Until they started put putting holes in them and they became class four. Right. So perforated four would be highly perme. Vapor and water will go straight to the house. Yeah. But so stupid not perforated. Yeah. It's a, might be a complete Oh, 

  [00:39:17] Hamish: 20, 20 years ago, you're just like, you, you could tell the difference between the two wraps by saying, oh, the ones that go on the wall has the holes in it.

  [00:39:23] You don't wanna put them on the roof 'cause water will get through. I'm like, and that just seems so normal 20 years ago. Yeah, 

  [00:39:29] Matt: but you still use the ones on the roof, on the 

  [00:39:31] Hamish: walls anyway. Mm. Uh, I mean, prob probably 

  [00:39:36] Villy: tropics is so challenging. And to be honest, we had hard to conserv the father of Wfi, like, uh, the, one of the best building science, uh, scientists on the planet coming in from Germany with 40 years of experience.

  [00:39:50] And I also asked him a few questions, Hey, would you do this or this in the tropics? And I was expecting a very concrete answer. Said, yeah, of course. No terrible. He [00:40:00] said, I dunno, I need to try, I need to calculate, I need to see what it is. There's no, it's not a such a simple solution. The reality is it's so humid and you have to choose how uncomfortable you want to be on the inside.

  [00:40:13] If you don't, if you can sleep at 30 degrees indoors, 80% humidity, and you feel refreshed and optimal human the next day, keep going that way. But if you wanna be normal person and to meet normal 21st century comfort levels, you kind of wanna stay at optimal conditions indoors. Right? No more than at least 25 degrees indoors and reasonable humidities.

  [00:40:39] How do you stop so much hot, humid air from outside coming in? You have to have an airtight structure, and you have to have an air conditioned envelope on the inside. 

  [00:40:48] Matt: And a dehumidifier, like a constant dehumidifier and 

  [00:40:50] Villy: de dehumidifier. Yeah. 'cause you'll not be able to reject it just by reject that much moisture just by the, um, air conditioning on its own.

  [00:40:57] Yeah. 

  [00:40:57] Matt: So like what, what purpose then [00:41:00] does. Insular or suppose insulation, playing those cool co uh, warmer climates like that because you really, the thermal resistance is just, is not gonna do anything. It just, 

  [00:41:09] Villy: well, let's think about it. Four degree 40 degrees on the outside. Yeah. Yeah. And you want it to be 25 on the inside.

  [00:41:15] So let's, you're trying to keep, you 

  [00:41:16] Hamish: need 

  [00:41:16] Matt: insulation. 

  [00:41:17] Hamish: Yeah. You're trying to 

  [00:41:17] Matt: keep the heat out. Not the cool in 

  [00:41:20] Villy: to call in first, uh, second lowest thermodynamics. Yeah. Hot goes to code. Yeah. So the hot wants to always come indoors. Yeah. 

  [00:41:28] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:41:29] Villy: So the hot wants to go to code through your building. It wants to infiltrate in.

  [00:41:34] Right. So you wanna stop it moving by air movement to start with. Right. So putting an air tightness there on the outside of the structure to stop that air coming in. But also that's one way of heat transferring through conduction by air movement. Right. And another way is through 

  [00:41:50] Hamish: radiation, 

  [00:41:50] Villy: conduction radiation through the sun.

  [00:41:52] Yeah. Then, then you shading and you learn 

  [00:41:53] Hamish: something from cam, I say. 

  [00:41:56] Villy: Conduct. So convection is air movement, radiation. That's where your [00:42:00] shading becomes important, your thinking of your glass and how much glass you have. And then the last one is conduction, like touching a whole glass, a cup of coffee and feel your hands growing.

  [00:42:09] If it's 40 degrees outside, it means it's 40 degrees in your cavity, which means you're gonna conduct through most of your walls, 40 degrees to 25. So you wanna resist this. So actually having the installation there, it is quite important to, to, to let you use less air conditioning indoors to maintain your comfort.

  [00:42:27] So it's all or nothing really either. Keep it very leaky and insulate or proper airtight and 

  [00:42:33] Hamish: yeah. 

  [00:42:34] Villy: Well, uh, 

  [00:42:35] Hamish: and tell me about, tell me about, so Pro Clima, I think Jesse's study, the, um, Australian study says that like in Victoria, in most parts of Australia, we're using. Internal. 

  [00:42:45] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:42:45] Hamish: Um, vapor control, external weather, resistive barrier.

  [00:42:49] Mm-hmm. But up in the tropics in certain, um, uh, 

  [00:42:53] Villy: CL zone 

  [00:42:54] Hamish: climate zones. Yep. 

  [00:42:55] Villy: Yep. 

  [00:42:55] Hamish: Uh, Jesse's saying one, 

  [00:42:57] Villy: no Intella. 

  [00:42:58] Hamish: No intella, 

  [00:42:59] Villy: yeah. Only [00:43:00] rely on the exterior air. 

  [00:43:01] Hamish: And can you just like explain it to me like I'm a 11-year-old? Why I wouldn't put Intel on the inside course. 

  [00:43:08] Villy: That's kind, that's challenging. Yeah.

  [00:43:10] Hamish: Because I fucking told you. So, 

  [00:43:12] Villy: so here is the concern. So 11-year-old, let's explain humidity variable diffusion. I've got, if you can, I've 

  [00:43:20] Matt: got the, I've, I've got the maturity of 11 year olds, 

  [00:43:22] Villy: so we know how Intel works. It works that the. Higher the humidity is the more vapor permeable it becomes. Yes. And the lower the humidity is the more it stops the vapor.

  [00:43:30] So in the colder climate, it stops the vapor getting out. In winter when you're heating your indoor space 

  [00:43:36] Hamish: and then a and then a ventilation system deals with the extra ventilator and extra condensation inside. Yep. 

  [00:43:41] Villy: And injecting moisture. Yeah. And then in summer that moisture may come within the structure from outside inwards.

  [00:43:47] Intel opens up, becomes more permeable, lets that vapor diffuse through and then the ventilation system reject that moisture. Now at its most vapor permeable state in inte is not infinitely [00:44:00] permeable. So if you have so much vapor from the outside trying to come in from outside heating essentially a not fully permeable surface 

  [00:44:09] Matt: concept, 

  [00:44:10] Villy: you can trap some of that moisture behind the, in inte and within your installation there.

  [00:44:15] So the risks are very low. Compared to what they used to do back in the day, specifically in North American climates where they wrapped the building with plastic. Plastic. Yeah, 

  [00:44:24] Hamish: yeah. So they're still doing 

  [00:44:26] Matt: that though, aren't they? 

  [00:44:26] Villy: They still do it in the super cold climates and still problems. Yeah. 

  [00:44:29] Hamish: So, I dunno if I told you this.

  [00:44:30] I worked in Whistler for, 

  [00:44:32] Villy: yeah. Oh, in Whistler. 

  [00:44:33] Hamish: A couple. I need to go there. 

  [00:44:34] Villy: Mountain 

  [00:44:34] Hamish: biking. Yeah. Uh, it's incredible. We'll talk about biking afterwards. Yeah. Um, yeah. I, I was on one of these big beautifully, you know Yeah. Real chateau. Yeah, Chateau, like big steep bruise up and stuff. And we started wrapping everything in plastic.

  [00:44:47] I'm like, what are you doing? This is like blowing my mind. 

  [00:44:51] Villy: Mm. 

  [00:44:51] Hamish: And they still do that. 

  [00:44:52] Villy: Yeah. 

  [00:44:53] Hamish: But now knowing what I know, like these multi multimillion dollar buildings that are sitting, you know, at the foothills of, or the [00:45:00] base of Whistler, have probably got massive mold issues 

  [00:45:02] Villy: in the inside the walls. Yeah, 

  [00:45:04] Hamish: yeah, 

  [00:45:04] Matt: yeah.

  [00:45:04] But you, they're not breathing that in. Exactly. 

  [00:45:06] Villy: Because it's covered by plastic. So they know as only if you've figured out how to install it well and seal it up, it's all contained within, but it's not what you want. 

  [00:45:13] Hamish: No, 

  [00:45:13] Villy: not what you want. Yeah. 

  [00:45:14] Hamish: No, because could it be degrading the frame? The frames big 

  [00:45:17] Villy: time.

  [00:45:17] Yeah. The installation will start, will shrink depending on the type of installation. Anyway, 

  [00:45:23] Hamish: I hijacked that part. 

  [00:45:23] Matt: Yeah. But so mold needs food source. There's obviously moisture coming in there so that moisture become dry rot and rot out. The mold's not gonna degrade the timber. It's the dry rot and everything as it comes.

  [00:45:35] Is that right? So, 

  [00:45:36] Hamish: so just back, back to, back to what, why, why we remove the intel though. So, so the Intel's not fully vapor open and there's so much moisture trying to move through that wall assembly. 

  [00:45:48] Villy: Some of it can get trapped. 

  [00:45:50] Hamish: That it can be trapped. Yeah. 

  [00:45:51] Villy: Yeah. Some it can trapped, it's like a highway.

  [00:45:52] It's 

  [00:45:53] Matt: a, it's like a big highway that's just blocked up 

  [00:45:55] Villy: pretty much. Yeah. That's a good way to think about it. Yeah, that's a good way to do it for an 11 yard. Yeah. 

  [00:45:59] Hamish: Yep. [00:46:00] Great. Okay, cool. Um, so then, so remove, remove the Intel, Intel internal system and then rather than, uh, have an HRV, we've got an ER. 

  [00:46:10] Matt: Anthrop, 

  [00:46:11] Villy: this is good End 

  [00:46:13] Hamish: and is anthrop 

  [00:46:14] Villy: Entropy.

  [00:46:15] Entropy. Yeah. Entropy based core. Yeah. 

  [00:46:17] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:46:17] Villy: And I, I thought this was the right thing to do, but some recent conversation with some sustainability engineers and pacified consultants there. Tell me that sometimes perhaps drown specifically or the really high tropics AR areas, ERV all year round is good, but they find around the Brisbane area, which is exactly around the time where we, around the areas where we are not sure where Intel is a good thing or a risky thing, is also they find that ERV might not be as good as HRV core in the winter months.

  [00:46:54] Specifically. They're finding that sometimes too much moisture is being, uh, lost during the quarter months. Yeah. Okay. 

  [00:46:59] Hamish: [00:47:00] So, so it can get quite, yeah. 

  [00:47:01] Matt: Actually ask Cam, because. The past, like my house, it's actually a bit more humid than I thought. 

  [00:47:05] Villy: Mm. 

  [00:47:06] Matt: But it's been humid. But Cam said it's a numbers game. Yeah.

  [00:47:09] So you need to look at it that maybe 30% of the year you need an ERV. Yeah. 70% of the HIV. So you take the 70% win. 

  [00:47:18] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:47:18] Villy: Okay. Or if you are bothered to monitoring stuff, swap costs. 

  [00:47:23] Matt: Is it the exact same unit? 

  [00:47:25] Villy: Yeah. You just need to open the co take, take one and put the new one in. Not the new one, but 

  [00:47:30] Matt: I've got a Zenda Q3 50.

  [00:47:31] I can just swap my core over and that's it. 

  [00:47:33] Villy: Yeah. 

  [00:47:33] Matt: Oh, I know. Joel, 

  [00:47:35] Villy: how much is, 

  [00:47:35] Hamish: how much is a new call though? 

  [00:47:36] Matt: Isn't 

  [00:47:37] Hamish: like three grand? 

  [00:47:37] Villy: I'm not sure. I have no idea how much 

  [00:47:40] Matt: I can say. It gets more comfortable, like comforts, I can say It gets quite humid. Yeah. 

  [00:47:44] Hamish: But are you splitting hairs though? 

  [00:47:45] Matt: No. No. It gets quite it.

  [00:47:47] I'm sitting around 60 up up to 70, 80% humidity internally some days. But in Melbourne. In Melbourne, in a passive house. But 

  [00:47:55] Hamish: hang on here, I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge this for a second. Do you think that's gonna change as your structure dries [00:48:00] out though? 'cause you are, you've been living in your home for, what, six months now?

  [00:48:03] Matt: No, but outside's also been around 90. 

  [00:48:06] Hamish: Horrendous. Okay. Well, I mean, that makes 

  [00:48:07] Matt: sense. Yeah. Because obviously I can't go from 90 down to 40. Let's see what happens 

  [00:48:11] Hamish: in the winter. Yeah. But it'd be so, I mean, our, our hemp creek passive house stayed humid for a long time as the big hemp walls dried out. Mm-hmm.

  [00:48:18] Now, I haven't chatted with the client since, and Nelson, if you're listening, let me know. Mm-hmm. Um, it'd be interesting to see where that seed now, 'cause it took a long time. Yeah. You've got a 

  [00:48:25] Matt: huge amount of moisture. 

  [00:48:26] Hamish: Took a long time for that to come down and dry out. 

  [00:48:28] Villy: Yeah, that's true. One side. But also, yeah.

  [00:48:31] Being so hot and humid outside, you're constantly bringing that, uh, humidity, inwards. And you're dehumidifying Melbourne 

  [00:48:37] Hamish: because you're opening the door and 

  [00:48:38] Matt: closing the door and Yes. A, a better, yeah, a better idea would just be to put a dehumidifier in the house. 

  [00:48:43] Villy: Yeah, but dehumidify also heats up the hole and if it's too hot and you heat it up more to dehumidify, you need to use more air con to keep it comfortable.

  [00:48:52] Yeah. It's, you can't win. Yeah. It's quite challenging. Yeah. 

  [00:48:55] Matt: So we, you talked about pilling before. 

  [00:48:58] Villy: Pilling of the membrane. Yeah. 

  [00:48:59] Matt: Do you wanna, [00:49:00] do you wanna explain what that is quickly? 

  [00:49:01] Villy: Yes, of course. So I mean, if you think about it, if you put a, a piece of cloth in between two standing members, if you blow against it, it's gonna deflect in.

  [00:49:10] If you blow from the other side, it would deflect out and it's gonna act like a parachute in and out between these two supporting structure. 

  [00:49:17] Matt: And, and that happens on a residential building too. 

  [00:49:20] Villy: Um, on the low rise of course depends on the winds that hits that building. So 

  [00:49:23] Matt: just like, just a, a normal mom and dad house, double story 

  [00:49:26] Villy: normal ma it really depends what's around you.

  [00:49:28] If it's like a house at the top of the hill with nothing, no trees, no other houses around it, it'll experience a lot of this stuff. If it is a house in secluded within a small suburb with lots of other houses around, less so. But still, you experience. Something along one kilo past cost of pressure, which is at the 600 stat spacing, is enough to deflect that membrane in and out a solid.

  [00:49:49] Hamish: So 

  [00:49:49] Villy: this 20 mils, 

  [00:49:50] Hamish: even with cladding, 20 

  [00:49:51] Matt: mil 

  [00:49:52] Villy: cladding doesn't make any difference. We have that, uh, a cavity that's open, top and bottom. 

  [00:49:57] Matt: Ah, yeah. 

  [00:49:57] Villy: There's no pressure on the cladding. The wind goes past the [00:50:00] cladding, past the host straight onto the membrane. 

  [00:50:01] Matt: It's a 20 millicom. So I'm, this is kind of, I'm setting this up for a loaded question.

  [00:50:05] Villy: Okay. 

  [00:50:05] Matt: But, so because I won, I'm massive advocate on my own house, we applied everything. Okay. And membrane it. So like I'm big on using the sheathing as a full structure. Mm-hmm. One thing I've noticed, I have not had one arc or tray anything crack and move. And usually we notice, I've noticed in a passive house, and I found very early, you see the, you see the skirting in the corners coming apart a bit more quicker than I've ever noticed, um, compared to it.

  [00:50:30] I dunno if you've had that problem ham 

  [00:50:31] Hamish: all the time. 

  [00:50:31] Matt: Yeah. Like, 

  [00:50:32] Hamish: it actually comes, in fact, I, I, and I say to clients, Hey. On our three month defect liability day, we're gonna come back and we're gonna, we're gonna touch up those arch trays. 'cause they'll, they'll open up slightly. Yes. Or they'll crack, they'll slowly 

  [00:50:43] Matt: crack.

  [00:50:44] I haven't had that to the slightest fleet now from 

  [00:50:47] Hamish: Bridge Point and just, and just, and just for any potential homeowners listening, we actually glue our Midas together as well 

  [00:50:54] Matt: and shoot them if you can. Yeah. But you just, and you just can't stop it now. It's so that's one [00:51:00] thing I've noticed and I've had the same problem, especially when we did Wainscoating Problem, big problem was coming apart everywhere.

  [00:51:05] And I mean like you just saw the lines. It wasn't like a five M gap. You couldn't slit a piece of paper, but it's noticeable now. Peeling, what I'm getting at here is if it happens in a mom and dad house, what we have done in the past, and this is where I get to now, is our vertical battens and that we're using everyone seeing, starting to try safe costs on material.

  [00:51:27] They're cutting little blocks. 

  [00:51:29] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:51:30] Matt: On those corner, those little blocks are sharp corners that usually extend past the side of the stud. Mm-hmm. If that peeling becomes 20 mil, are we gonna start ripping our, me our membrane? 

  [00:51:37] Villy: Very common in the brick thigh of brick veneer, like it's same things. Happens even worse.

  [00:51:42] A bit more exaggerate. 'cause it's a metal face. Yeah. Brick tie with the very sharp corners on the end. When the membrane starts spilling out, it pokes a hole straightaway, like very easy. 

  [00:51:52] Matt: So with brick veneer, we should then be looking at a minimum of they've got those plastic wass or you should be putting on a timber vertical.

  [00:51:59] Batten, [00:52:00] or I put naec behind, I put naec behind all my brick or ecstasy. So 

  [00:52:05] Hamish: we, we, we've got a project coming up. Big home, lots of brick everywhere. Mm-hmm. And we've actually talked about running strips, um, to 20 mil, 20 mil, whatever. Uh, just just so, so we can attach the brick ties 

  [00:52:17] Matt: to No. Yeah. Yeah. So you, what you need?

  [00:52:19] Oh, the, the, we just use off cuts of extra seal and Chris, our brickie, we just give them, we just give 'em a whole roll and go cut it up behind each one. 

  [00:52:26] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:52:27] Hamish: Extra seal or ec? 

  [00:52:28] Matt: Well, either I just use, we don't need double sided for niac, I just use extras. Seal. Yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:52:32] Villy: Normally ec, uh, is what you say.

  [00:52:34] 'cause you, you double side and put it on over there. But both will do the same job of 

  [00:52:39] Matt: on a vertical 

  [00:52:39] Villy: softing that edge, it's still little bit thick rubber to, to minimize this risk 

  [00:52:44] Matt: where I get then if everyone's doing these battens, especially on a roof and they're cutting 'cause on a roof, I'm assuming the peeling's even worse.

  [00:52:52] Villy: Uh, good question. I think it depends from where the wind comes from. Could be. Yeah. 

  [00:52:58] Matt: Because when you are building. [00:53:00] And we're not com it might be wrapped up. You got windows still open and it's like flying around. 

  [00:53:05] Villy: Yeah. 

  [00:53:05] Matt: I think we shouldn't be cutting out tho Those vertical battens need to be continuous from top to bottom.

  [00:53:11] They should not be little blocks because now we're adding a few, you've got five or six little blocks along the way. 

  [00:53:16] Hamish: I, I, I don't know. I, I'm really interested to understand that because I'm all for trying to use as less least resources we possibly can. Yeah. So like, can we put a camera up there or something and like get a video of like, I'd love to see this in play.

  [00:53:30] What 

  [00:53:30] Matt: is it? Mine's a lot of hypothe hypotheticals here. 

  [00:53:32] Hamish: And I'm hearing, I'm hearing what you're saying. Saying I the same, you know, and as you're sitting here like saying this, I'm like, fuck the last like five houses, I the same got 

  [00:53:38] Matt: like 

  [00:53:39] Villy: blocked. 

  [00:53:39] Matt: Same. 

  [00:53:40] Villy: I I understand. And we see I haven't looked, seen too much of these small cuts on, uh, wall on walls.

  [00:53:46] I've only mostly seen it. People avoid running full and counter buttons for roofs, uh, on the do the a SV system. 

  [00:53:53] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:53:53] Villy: What I really don't know any evidence to say that the sharp edges of the buttons could cause this. One [00:54:00] concern that my other consi, uh, could consider, um, apart from this is the flat surface that you have at every bat that water can pull on.

  [00:54:11] If you have at every bat, you have a flat surface. If water starts getting there, it'll find its way through this hole. 

  [00:54:16] Matt: We actually have a problem. 

  [00:54:17] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:54:18] Villy: Yeah. This is where I haven't 

  [00:54:19] Matt: really had a leak come from that, 

  [00:54:20] Villy: from a water tightness point of view, it's probably more concerning. But from a durability point of view, the, the pilling again, is something else to think about.

  [00:54:28] Uh, but of course it's a, it's really a numbers game. Go through and 

  [00:54:32] Hamish: cut. Like 

  [00:54:33] Matt: just, just sha if you're gonna cut them, just instead of cut 'em, just put your drops on, 10 degrees on each. Cut, cut, cut, cut. You're not changing any time. Won't cost anymore. 

  [00:54:42] Villy: You're still catching water 

  [00:54:43] Hamish: though. 

  [00:54:43] Matt: No, but it's on the angle.

  [00:54:44] So it should drip and then hit. 

  [00:54:45] Villy: Yeah. Yeah. It should deflect the water easier. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's much better. 

  [00:54:50] Hamish: Alright, 

  [00:54:50] Villy: but did you say you had fly, did you wanna link this back to the code? 'cause that's probably one of the most important changes in the new code that's coming, the 2025 code. [00:55:00] So the way the code was written before said in the code of climates, if you're gonna use a membrane, it needs to be class for vapor permeable, right?

  [00:55:10] You could put this on the outside of a metal sheet and still. 

  [00:55:14] Matt: Yeah, 

  [00:55:14] Villy: comply with that building code, which makes no sense from a building point of view, right? 

  [00:55:17] Matt: This is vapor blocker. 

  [00:55:18] Villy: You have a complete vapor barrier being the metal sheet, but you put a highly vapor permeable membrane and then you meet everything.

  [00:55:23] Okay? 

  [00:55:24] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:55:24] Villy: Now the code explicitly states any control layer. Okay? So introduces the word control layer, which could mean the membrane, it could mean a reflective foil that controls water and heat. 

  [00:55:38] Matt: So are we, are we saying controlling? Is that what we're using? Controlling 

  [00:55:41] Villy: control. Okay. Yeah. Anything used to control, anything to control air, to control water, to control thermo, or to control vapor.

  [00:55:47] Any one of these movement por No, not really, but 

  [00:55:52] Hamish: my brain went there too. 

  [00:55:53] Villy: Yeah. But anyway, now you have the, when you put, okay. No, the [00:56:00] realistic scenario, you're not gonna be really layering too many things together, but the most. Expect the thing to happen is on the outside of a frame, you put a board 

  [00:56:07] Matt: Yeah.

  [00:56:08] Villy: To brace the, the structure, but also to resist wind pressures. 

  [00:56:12] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:56:12] Villy: And overall, perhaps air tightness is better. Once you put that board, now you protect that board with something, suddenly you have to meet this vapor Permian classification for each of these controllers. Which, but 

  [00:56:26] Matt: that's not my control layer.

  [00:56:27] The plys not my control layer. It's not there for, I'm not using it for more share, but 

  [00:56:31] Villy: it, it 

  [00:56:32] Hamish: becomes part of your 

  [00:56:34] Villy: control layer. I don't think you'd be, the way the wording is written is quite specific. You'll not be able to argue that this is not doing any job. The, the P layer. That's 

  [00:56:41] Matt: why I asked the word movement.

  [00:56:42] Yeah. Because is it controlling movement? Then we've got, yeah. 

  [00:56:45] Villy: What the bottom line here is that every board that you're planning to put on the outside of the structure that's gonna follow the new code has to meet the Permian classifications. 

  [00:56:53] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:56:54] Villy: And I have not got, I have not seen many specifically timber based product.[00:57:00] 

  [00:57:00] Matt: They're all gonna have to start sending off the frown hoffer. 'cause they, they are now liable because their product isn't vapor permeable. 

  [00:57:06] Villy: Exactly. No one has been reporting VA Vapor Permian at all board, but Class 

  [00:57:10] Matt: Egg Board has class three. 

  [00:57:12] Villy: Oh yeah. Perhaps class three. Sometimes they haven't reported it.

  [00:57:14] Perhaps because they either haven't tested it or they have tested it, but they 

  [00:57:17] Matt: also have to be class four. Then every ply board would need to be class four. 

  [00:57:21] Villy: The ply, the board itself Class four and the Membrane class four. And the code of climates. Yeah. This is gonna start getting tricky for manufacturers and I've been checking recently and I haven't seen many manufacturers starting to report things yet.

  [00:57:32] Well, 

  [00:57:32] Hamish: do, do you know what we have to, we, we, 

  [00:57:34] Villy: the board is not there yet, but yeah. 

  [00:57:35] Hamish: We recently ended up spending as an insurance policy, more money ongoing. Um, uh, OSB from performance membranes. Mm-hmm. We had a cheaper product by like a, a good amount of money, but they couldn't guarantee that, that the, the vapor perms of that particular board.

  [00:57:55] Now we could have got a sample and gone and tested it. 

  [00:57:57] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:57:58] Hamish: But it's just one sample of [00:58:00] one board. So there's this control levels are pretty low. 

  [00:58:03] Villy: Yeah. 

  [00:58:03] Matt: So I was speaking to Carter Holt. 

  [00:58:09] Villy: Carter Holt, yeah. 

  [00:58:10] Matt: And I asked them this question 'cause we were looking at using it for our roof at the time, and they said, oh, we we're thinking about getting this tested.

  [00:58:20] And I said, well, you are liable if I put it on. And they had decided to send it to Frown Hoffer. Now I should actually follow up on this. 

  [00:58:29] Villy: How long ago was that? I might update you Year. Well, a bit less than a year ago. I heard that they've decided to put this on the lower list of priorities and not do it.

  [00:58:39] No, they urgently. 

  [00:58:41] Hamish: Well, okay, I might follow up 

  [00:58:42] Villy: because, but let's clarify. Sending to Fran hfa, not so much. They will test it. 

  [00:58:48] Hamish: Hang what, what? What are we doing when we're sending it to, 

  [00:58:49] Villy: so, F Fran hfa Institute of Building Physics is the birthplace of WFI and the very dedicated um. Center for research on building physics in Germany.

  [00:58:59] So [00:59:00] when you send a material to be tested to front hfa, they test to, depending on the type of material, certain mandatory properties that needs to be tested. But all you get at the end of this is, okay, yes, a report of this properties, which then is fed to become a material data file in wfi so that someone can perform yes hydrothermal calculations and assess the risks of using this product in a certain construction.

  [00:59:23] So by a manufacturer sending their products, it's very handy for us and the industry to be able to do Wfi Cox, but it's not really useful for them. It could be actually quite detrimental to them because some calculations might show that things are not as good as they thought it would be. What manufacturers need to do is they need to send this to a third party NATA accredited laboratory to establish the Permian class.

  [00:59:46] Matt: Is that expensive 

  [00:59:48] Villy: for vapor diffusion? Um, maybe may be within four digits. 

  [00:59:56] Hamish: So, so 

  [00:59:57] Matt: it's like a thousand 

  [00:59:58] Hamish: dollars. Yeah. Ca So cam, cam 

  [00:59:59] Villy: [01:00:00] 2000 

  [01:00:00] Hamish: something. Cam, cam suggested that we do it for our, one of our projects and I think it was a few hundred bucks. Don't quote me. 

  [01:00:05] Villy: Yeah, it could be I, but you wanna make, make sure you got the 

  [01:00:07] Matt: same batch.

  [01:00:08] Hamish: No, that's exactly, that's exactly right. So, so Cam, you know, we do the beer and BS stuff, so Cam's gonna come on and talk about ply versus osb. Mm-hmm. Think next month. Mm-hmm. So that's why actually when this comes out, who knows, but it might've been on. But Cam's gonna come and talk about this. So it's really interesting when you start thinking about, 

  [01:00:25] Matt: geez, this could be a massive problem.

  [01:00:27] Hamish: I think I, this has just come to light right now and, and I'm really glad that we've got 

  [01:00:32] Matt: engineers now liable. Like, 

  [01:00:34] Hamish: well, 

  [01:00:36] Villy: by the way, that's all walls, right? Roofs. You don't need to do that. To that degree, I don't think the way the code is written, even though that's probably where you're most likely to see oh's, just 

  [01:00:46] Hamish: that that's where, that's where you're gonna get the issues though.

  [01:00:48] Villy: Yeah. 

  [01:00:48] Hamish: Like so recently, and I think I've talked about this before, we've got Cam involved in a retrofit project mm-hmm. And, uh, we've essentially implemented your, a hero mm-hmm. [01:01:00] Um, flat roof system. Yeah. But we weren't going to do in inte over the existing, um, roof lining mm-hmm. Until Cam said, oh, low pitch roof.

  [01:01:12] You've got, you know, 12 mil OSB, and then you've got your hero. There is actually a small risk here. So we decided to lay, uh, intel over the top of the raft. Uh, 

  [01:01:21] Villy: always recommended. 

  [01:01:22] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:01:22] Villy: Yeah. 

  [01:01:23] Hamish: And the reason I'm bringing this up is that I probably would've made the decision to not do it. 

  [01:01:28] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [01:01:28] Hamish: But bringing on someone like Cam, who's obviously an expert in this area is really important.

  [01:01:33] So I guess the point I'm trying to make is. 

  [01:01:36] Matt: I saw a whole episode on that topic. 

  [01:01:37] Hamish: That's a great topic. Get, get someone, get someone on your team that actually knows this stuff. Get someone like Billy to, 

  [01:01:43] Matt: but, but my, my brain goes here, like every house has some form of applied bracing. Mm-hmm. And they're use typically using that cheap three mil.

  [01:01:51] Villy: Four. 

  [01:01:51] Hamish: And what, and what issues are you creating there? 

  [01:01:54] Matt: Like now you're just, your like is who is every engineer potentially now liable because I didn't specify a [01:02:00] class four vapor permeable ply board. 

  [01:02:01] Villy: Well, they didn't need to comply to anything back then, so. No, 

  [01:02:04] Matt: but now they will. 

  [01:02:05] Villy: Now they will. So when that code becomes active, whenever they need to be, they have to specify that.

  [01:02:10] Is that 

  [01:02:11] Matt: from that point? From that point. So ya who 

  [01:02:13] Hamish: listens to this podcast 

  [01:02:14] Matt: is probably sitting here or, 

  [01:02:17] Villy: yeah. 

  [01:02:17] Matt: Good 

  [01:02:17] Villy: note for 

  [01:02:18] Matt: you buddy. 

  [01:02:18] Villy: So we are expecting code to come in May, 

  [01:02:20] Matt: 2025 

  [01:02:21] Villy: fir so 1st of May, 2026. 

  [01:02:24] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. 

  [01:02:25] Villy: Yes, 

  [01:02:25] Matt: that's correct. Yeah. 

  [01:02:25] Villy: And then Canberra said it's gonna adopt it within six months, so towards the end of 2020.

  [01:02:31] Any project submitted for DA and eventually for certificate for, uh, so for construction contract will need to comply with the new code. The Queensland has said one year. Yeah. May 27 and then so now 

  [01:02:45] Matt: they're 31 years behind. 

  [01:02:46] Villy: Yeah. Other states not confirmed expecting South Australian 

  [01:02:51] Matt: does not. Yeah.

  [01:02:52] Victoria. 

  [01:02:54] Villy: Victoria. Yeah. Who 

  [01:02:54] Matt: knows? 

  [01:02:55] Villy: Yeah. 

  [01:02:56] Hamish: I really love having these conversations. I wish you had a, a little note down here [01:03:00] to have a chat with Dan about one of the projects that we've got in pre-construction right now. 'cause I actually think that from what I've learned today, we might create an issue in an existing part of the building where we've got an extension.

  [01:03:12] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [01:03:12] Hamish: Um, and I won't talk about what project it is and I won't talk about what detail it is, but rest assure clients, 

  [01:03:18] Matt: this is why we have the podcast to learn. 

  [01:03:20] Hamish: We are gonna make sure that we're not actually creating an issue. So 

  [01:03:23] Matt: what else is happening in the standards? What are some other things?

  [01:03:26] Ventilation battens. 

  [01:03:28] Villy: Ventilation Battens. Not really like the way, so in the condensation, condensation management side of things, we now care about the vapor permanence of any control layer. 

  [01:03:38] Matt: Yeah. 

  [01:03:38] Villy: The board and the membrane. We also have mandatory. Drain invented cavity on the cold climate. Yes. 6, 7, 8 has to have a drain and ventilator system.

  [01:03:48] Matt: Nine, minimum 19 mil 

  [01:03:50] Villy: 12. I just checked just to be sure. 12 mil is how the draft came. The latest draft preview came, it used to it, it, it started at 20, it then [01:04:00] dropped to 18. And the way it came right now is 12 mil. So I need to have a 12 millimeter gap between your, the back of the cladding and the front face of the outermost control there.

  [01:04:09] What's, 

  [01:04:09] Matt: what's 12 mil though? Applied. But then is that, if that Batten is applied, does that have to be the same font fence paling, 

  [01:04:15] Villy: is it, 

  [01:04:15] Matt: but then that's straight pine 

  [01:04:16] Villy: minimum. I think the way it's written is to, to accommodate that the, the shallowest possible metal top hat you can put on a construction on a, 

  [01:04:26] Matt: the metal 

  [01:04:27] Villy: industry.

  [01:04:27] Yeah. Yeah. But that's to account for the commercial stuff more than, but 

  [01:04:30] Matt: that's volume two. Volume one and volume two are two different codes. 

  [01:04:33] Villy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, I dunno why they kept it across both. Maybe I was checking con, maybe I was checking vote one. Maybe I checked 

  [01:04:43] Matt: it myself. 

  [01:04:44] Villy: Okay, 

  [01:04:44] Matt: let's, sorry.

  [01:04:45] Villy: Yeah, 

  [01:04:45] Matt: let's keep chatting. We'll, we'll see what else we can find. I'll fact check. Let's 

  [01:04:49] Villy: fact check And Billy, this is important. And then you start introducing vapor permanence requirements everywhere. Before we used to have chla zone four and five, now six and seven and eight. Now we have 1, 2, 8. [01:05:00] With and without drain and ventilated cavity, there are mandatory requirements of the vapor, perms of the controllers you you're planning to put.

  [01:05:08] Okay. And 

  [01:05:09] Matt: so you can't direct fix cladding to your membrane anymore, which 

  [01:05:13] Villy: in chla zone six, seven, and eight. 

  [01:05:14] Matt: Which, which, if you are doing that in any other state anyway, that's just one of the dumbest 

  [01:05:18] Hamish: things. I mean, I think, I think one of the best things that have come out of like this whole social media thing is how freely information shared now, and everyone that I see on social media now is putting ventilator cavities.

  [01:05:28] They're talking about ventilator cavities. Mm-hmm. And this wasn't a thing. Uh, three or four years ago. Yeah. Which I think is amazing. 

  [01:05:33] Matt: But, but yeah, let's go back to it. If you are still sticking at your cladding heart up on the membrane, every little screw or hole is just poking another hole in your membrane.

  [01:05:41] Villy: Yeah, of course. And also condensation, sorry, vapor coming out from the building, condenses at the back of your cladding has nowhere to go. There's no ventilation to dry it or drainage to drain it. So not ideal. And then if you're gonna ask me later, what we would want to see in the next revision of the coat 10 years from now, is that [01:06:00] direct fix is not allowed anywhere.

  [01:06:02] It's probably one of the, the things you wanna see, everything should be drained. 

  [01:06:05] Hamish: I like how you said the next coat update in 10 years from now. 

  [01:06:09] Villy: Think about it. They stopped everything until 2030. Then they start considering doing something, then it's gonna take another two or three years. Might as well be, 

  [01:06:17] Hamish: imagine the damage that can happen between the next 

  [01:06:19] Villy: 10 

  [01:06:19] Hamish: years and now.

  [01:06:20] Villy: Yeah. Did you find 

  [01:06:21] Hamish: it, Matt? 

  [01:06:21] Matt: I'm, yeah. So yeah. What else is happening? I can buy myself some time. 

  [01:06:25] Villy: Roof. Yeah. Roof ventilation require 

  [01:06:28] Matt: volume vol. Volume two. Yep. Yep. 

  [01:06:29] Villy: Can you do control F Go much faster. Control. This is a hack to anybody. Yeah. Opening 600 page codes often. If you are specifically interested in the condensation side, if you go control F for the search button and you go, 

  [01:06:43] Matt: I'm an iPad here, 

  [01:06:44] Villy: 4,200 and you're gonna shift a few pages from the first references.

  [01:06:49] What? What? 

  [01:06:50] Matt: What's the, what's the number? 

  [01:06:51] Villy: 4, 2 0 0. That is the membrane standard. It'll pass it straight. 

  [01:06:55] Matt: Pliable membrane. 

  [01:06:56] Villy: Yeah, that's the definitions. A little bit more. And then you're gonna arrive straight to the code. [01:07:00] Straight to the, no, I'm not. No, no. Keep going. 

  [01:07:02] Matt: No, it's not. I didn't 

  [01:07:03] Villy: do. Okay, 

  [01:07:03] Matt: so, so I'll tell 

  [01:07:04] Villy: you an 

  [01:07:04] Matt: even better hack.

  [01:07:05] This 

  [01:07:05] Hamish: is riveting. 

  [01:07:06] Villy: Roof roofs. Okay. Roof. 

  [01:07:08] Matt: An even better hack for your NC. 

  [01:07:10] Villy: Yeah, 

  [01:07:10] Matt: go to Google, lm. Okay. Create, create your own little bot. So, and then upload the NCC. It can then only refer to that document that you put into the, that bot. It can't go to anything external. And then you can start searching. So what I've done is I've uploaded any standards, um, any guides to stands and tolerance.

  [01:07:29] So it, it's something that you can put, you can do 

  [01:07:30] Hamish: that in any, any, 

  [01:07:31] Matt: yeah. Yeah. I'm just using because I'm ju so condensation management is one page, 1, 3, 4. Um, 

  [01:07:37] Villy: roof is now if you're gonna talk about roof. Oh, I find it is that it, um, separates the requirements for the ventilation, whether you have installation parallel to roof plane.

  [01:07:49] So typical rafter roof insulation between rafters, the roof plane running in the same plane, sorry, the roof sheet running in the same plane. And then. Segregating this [01:08:00] from a insulation not parallel to the roof plan, sitting on the ceiling level. And then it's explicitly stating that Yes. Um, how you're gonna ventilate above or below the insulation or above or below the membrane layer.

  [01:08:13] Hamish: And, and from a, from a risk management point of view, um, you mentioned before about keeping that insulation hard up to the underside of whatever membrane you've got on the top. 

  [01:08:22] Matt: Yeah. 

  [01:08:22] Hamish: So whether that's anticon or whether that's a mento or whatever, or even any roof sheets. Yeah. What are the risks if we don't manage that?

  [01:08:30] Because if you think about like putting insulation in between trusses, it's gonna be tricky. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna be tricky to make sure it stays hard up there. Yep. Um, so any trust manufacturers out there, now, I'd love to hear your solutions for this, but what are some of the risks if, if it does sag down and you're creating that air gap?

  [01:08:47] Villy: So the, the, the fact that the air gap is there is not a problem. The concern becomes if that air gap is there and you have a lot of air moving in that gap. Okay. Right. So if you open, so [01:09:00] one of the ways to meet the ventilation requirements is to open up your eaves. So leave the insulation at least 20 mil short of the food depth of the rafters.

  [01:09:09] Yeah. So you have this 20 mil cavity and then leave your eaves open to allow air to enter in and move in that 20 mil gap. Yeah. So is that a concern? Well, first of all, you're gonna greatly derate the effectiveness of your installation air moving through that layer. So if just go back to basics, um, installation works on the principle of trapping pockets of air to insulate us from one side to the other.

  [01:09:34] Once you get air moving in that cavity, you disturb those air pockets within the insulation layer or you're not really getting what you thought you're getting in terms of the r value that path. Yeah. So that is, is that a concern? It's probably just a, a bit of a inconvenient disadvantage more than anything.

  [01:09:50] The concern becomes if you're bringing way too much hot, humid from the external environment. 'cause it's so. Humid outside and then your roof sheet [01:10:00] and whatever is under your roof sheet cools down below the ambient conditions. Then you start forming condensation on, on the underside of that structure.

  [01:10:08] Where is that condensation is gonna go, it's gonna stay there. It's gonna drip onto your insulation, it might wet your rafters. It's um, yeah, it's not ideal. It's not something we advocate for. Yeah. We always say, if you're gonna do this structure full, full depth of rafter cover of installation and the roof membrane links down around 

  [01:10:28] Hamish: onto onto, onto the wall 

  [01:10:29] membrane.

  [01:10:29] Villy: Onto the wall membrane. Yeah, exactly. 

  [01:10:31] Matt: They've got it here. You find it. So 

  [01:10:33] Villy: it's a sub control. 

  [01:10:35] Matt: Yeah. So it is here. So where pliable building membrane or sing type material is installed as a control layer in an external, it must be located between the cladding and the external side of the primary insulation layer be constructed from cavity batten spaces or like where applicable with a depth of 12, at least 12 mil.

  [01:10:54] Yes, you're right. But, but. It doesn't say only in certain climate zones anymore. [01:11:00] 

  [01:11:00] Villy: No, no. So then to get this, you need to get to the table below 'cause it needs to follow this. And you see that. 

  [01:11:04] Hamish: It doesn't say, but it doesn't say that a Portia does here. 

  [01:11:08] Villy: It says it is, the table itself is subject to X. And you see here that it says climate zone six, seven, and eight.

  [01:11:14] No cavity XX equals not permitted. So this cavity, so like the problem doesn't apply in those 

  [01:11:20] Matt: states. But the other, 

  [01:11:21] Villy: my, 

  [01:11:21] Matt: my other favorite one here is these don't apply to walls constructed from insulated sandwich panels or sips. 

  [01:11:28] Villy: Yes. Single skin masonary. Single skin concrete sips panels. 

  [01:11:32] Matt: Is that 'cause it's just too hard for them to work it out.

  [01:11:35] Villy: Well, that's a whole different ball game with the SIPP panels and what exactly are your layers inside, outside, and what type of construction is sitting there outside. But arguably 

  [01:11:43] Matt: potentially one of the most dangerous if you've got ply. 

  [01:11:46] Villy: Yeah. You don't wanna mess up those. Yeah, for sure. 

  [01:11:48] Matt: Having said that, those working with sipps most likely are pretty advanced in their knowledge of building and going to be.

  [01:11:53] Yeah. So I feel like that yeah, you would hope so. I feel like that's by default that will get covered quite well. [01:12:00] But the issue would be if someone, I know a builder was just gonna do this and just put their clatting heart up, imagine putting just a foam panel heart up. 

  [01:12:10] Hamish: Well, I think that that exists because if you think about, uh, that particular product out there that it has the roof sheet, you know, bond door.

  [01:12:16] Bond door. 

  [01:12:16] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [01:12:17] Hamish: Like sandwich, like right onto the foam. 

  [01:12:20] Villy: Yeah. That's a foam insulation standard between metal on the outside and metal middle on the inside. 

  [01:12:26] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:12:26] Villy: Yeah. Which is how Europe is building tens of thousands square meters of this stuff per day. 

  [01:12:33] Hamish: Wow. 

  [01:12:33] Villy: Uh, and walls and roofs. Yeah. And 

  [01:12:35] Hamish: can you, can you, in your experience or expertise, is that a problem?

  [01:12:39] Do you think that can be a problem? 

  [01:12:40] Villy: The only problem, the only time this becomes a problem is water somehow gets inside. 

  [01:12:45] Hamish: Okay. 

  [01:12:45] Villy: And 

  [01:12:46] Hamish: so if we're, if we stop, if we're managing the water during construction and post-construction, then it should be okay. 

  [01:12:51] Villy: Yeah. Because it's meant to be pretty well sealed together, right?

  [01:12:54] Yeah. So it's gonna be your screw fixing, uh, fixing points where you're gonna show the problem. Yeah. So if you take care of [01:13:00] this and not allow air to get inside that sandwich, 

  [01:13:02] Hamish: yeah. 

  [01:13:03] Villy: You're good. Yeah. If water gets in, problems start occur. Like the, you technically, you can't really do any rotting or any mode or anything, but you're gonna start crowding the steel yeahing and deteriorate the phone.

  [01:13:14] Yeah. 

  [01:13:15] Matt: We have a closing segment on this podcast. The mindful moment. Mm-hmm. Sponsored by me, GT Australia's leading apprenticeship experts. Now, the whole idea is around this is to help give those wanting to learn. Piece of information, maybe a, a hot tip on something that they can do to improve their trade or, um, learn more in their apprenticeship.

  [01:13:36] What, you've got a huge amount of knowledge. How do you learn, like how can you give tips to young people wanting to, to learn more but learn in the right ways? Like how do you, how do you learn and how would you give advice to someone wanting to get to like your level 100 on the ninja scale of condensation?

  [01:13:56] We're probably at level one, but how do you, how do you, how do you learn? 

  [01:13:59] Hamish: [01:14:00] And we don't have, not everybody has to get to a hundred. 

  [01:14:02] Matt: Yeah. Where would you suggest someone is starting to learn this stuff? 

  [01:14:06] Villy: This is good question. And my head is going in a weird direction to answer this. I'm not gonna send you off to, to read stuff and watch videos, um, find.

  [01:14:19] Find somebody, find a mentor. Like I was, I'm so privileged to, to sit right next to Jesse Clark leading building physicists in Australia and Daniel Jacobs, master carpenter from Germany that anytime I had a question or something to wanna learn from, I can just, uh, turn around and ask them. And this is where I've learned a lot of it.

  [01:14:38] Of course, I try to stay up to date with what's happening in the industry, of course codes, but also what is happening overseas. But reading long papers is no fun. And, uh, uh, a builder getting out of their way to read a 40 page abstract of a, of a, of a journal is not, I can't imagine being of fun activity.

  [01:14:57] So I kind of 

  [01:14:58] Hamish: like it. 

  [01:14:58] Villy: Yeah. I would much [01:15:00] rather point it to real. People think just 

  [01:15:01] Hamish: thinking about it. 

  [01:15:02] Villy: Yeah. 

  [01:15:03] Hamish: So 

  [01:15:03] Villy: real people, uh, that in the industry, you're gonna be surprised how much more open for mentorship people would be to spend time with you and to, I reckon 

  [01:15:13] Hamish: that's probably one of the best answers we've got.

  [01:15:15] And, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. Most people want to help people. 

  [01:15:19] Villy: Exactly. Yeah. 

  [01:15:20] Hamish: So if someone reaches out to you and asks for help 

  [01:15:22] Villy: mm-hmm. 

  [01:15:23] Hamish: There's a really good chance that they're not gonna take the fuck off and they're actually gonna, and not 

  [01:15:26] Matt: on Instagram. Find our email, 

  [01:15:27] Villy: find 

  [01:15:28] Matt: our phone number.

  [01:15:28] Hamish: Yeah, 

  [01:15:29] Matt: exactly. Um, start there, but like, hey, now you, you just, you said that you got two great mentors in Dan and, and Jesse and both have played a huge role into our knowledge. 

  [01:15:39] Villy: Mm-hmm. 

  [01:15:40] Matt: Who's smarter 

  [01:15:42] Villy: Ah, the different, uh, different fields, really. Um, from the Yeah. Who's taught you, of course, Jesse doesn't have as much experience or any on, on the tools to see how stuff is built.

  [01:15:53] This is why it was so funny joining and looking these two guys together. They couldn't piece it together 'cause one knew [01:16:00] how to do stuff and the other one knew why to do stuff. But couldn't figure out how to merge it together in a, in an optimal way. Of course, they've done a tremendous amount of work over the years to them, to where they were, but it was amazing to see joining out and expanding the team and putting all the pieces together, documenting things properly, and communicating properly with the communications team as well.

  [01:16:19] And it's, uh, it's all coming together much better. I was 

  [01:16:21] Matt: really hoping you were gonna say, Jesse, so when Dan's listening to this podcast, he comes banging into your office being like, why didn't you pick me? 

  [01:16:28] Hamish: I'm gonna, I'm gonna wrap this up by saying, just circling back to something that you said earlier on as to why Pro Clima exists, and it's actually the second time that I've heard why you guys exist and it says to.

  [01:16:40] To, yeah, and like the fact that you just happen to sell products off the back of that I think, um, is great for a business. But one thing I have experienced myself over the past eight, nine years is how much free information Pro Clima gives out. So yeah, I guess on behalf of the industry and where me and Matt are sitting right now, like, [01:17:00] you know, you guys are doing such a great job.

  [01:17:01] So, you know, we really wanna support you and um, hopefully you guys can keep that up. Yeah, 

  [01:17:05] Villy: much. 

  [01:17:05] Matt: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks 

  [01:17:06] Hamish: for coming along. 

  [01:17:06] Matt: Yeah, thank you very much. Cheers. 

  [01:17:08] Hamish: Thank 

  [01:17:08] Matt: you. Bye.