More good and less bad
“I don’t understand why people build houses like this.”
We have both said some version of that on-site, usually after seeing a detail that was always going to fail. A leaky junction. A sweaty wall. A home that is freezing in winter and cooking in summer. Not because the builder was evil, but because the industry has normalised shortcuts and shrugged-off consequences for so long that bad outcomes start to feel inevitable.
This episode is us pushing back on that. The whole point of More Good and Less Bad is simple. Build better homes. Make fewer mistakes. Leave people healthier, more comfortable, and less stressed than the standard build tends to deliver.
We took this conversation to Sydney and recorded out of Pro Clima HQ and got to sit down with Andy Marlow, director at Envirotecture and a certified Passive House designer, who has the rare ability to talk about sustainability without making it feel like a lecture.
Andy is one of those people who is not interested in greenwashing or glossy buzzwords. He is interested in outcomes. Homes that perform. Homes that last. Homes that do not quietly fall apart behind the plaster.
The Living Building Challenge
We spent a chunk of the chat on the Living Building Challenge because it is one of the few frameworks that does not let you cherry-pick the easy bits. It is holistic sustainability. Materials. Energy. Water. Health. The whole picture.
It is ambitious, and that is why we like it. Not because we think every project needs to chase a badge, but because it forces better questions. What are we building with? What are we leaving behind? What does “sustainable construction” actually mean when you zoom out and look at the full impact?
Passive House, But Make It Buildable
We also talked about a model Andy is working with called Passive House Design and Construct. The idea is pretty refreshing. Pre-designed homes that hit high-performance targets, but still leave room for the home to feel personal.
It is a way of making Passive House and high-performance buildings more accessible. Less reinventing the wheel every time. Less starting from scratch. More repeatable quality, with enough flexibility that people do not feel like they are living in a template.
Lessons Learned, and the Stuff We Would Do Differently
Building with intention is not about being perfect. We have done projects we are proud of, and we have also had moments where we look back and think, yep, we would do that differently now.
That is part of the deal. You learn. You adjust. You get better. The problem is when the industry refuses to learn and keeps repeating the same failures because it is easier in the short term. Our goal is to keep moving toward more good, even when it means being honest about what is not working.
Balancing the Ideal With the Real
We also tried to keep the conversation grounded. Sustainability is not helpful if it is only theoretical. It has to be financially feasible. It has to be buildable. It has to work for real clients, on real sites, with real constraints.
The sweet spot is where the ideal meets the achievable. Where you can make meaningful gains without turning every project into an experimental science fair.
Building better is not about one magic product or one perfect standard. It is about mindset, systems, and the willingness to question what has been normal for too long.
LINKS:
Envirotecture: https://www.envirotecture.com.au/
Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima
MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt
CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Hamish: Have you ever wondered what it means to build with intention? Well, I'm Hamish. And I'm Matt, and we are dedicated to pushing boundaries and building better homes. We welcome you to join us on the Mindful Builder podcast, where we're committed to driving positive change in the building industry by surrounding you with experts in their field and being open about our lives as builders.
[00:00:22] Join us on this mindful journey of construction by subscribing to the Mindful podcast.
[00:00:39] So we are coming from, uh, the real Pro Clima- Pro Clima ... Built to Last studio headquarters in Sydney. Matt and I went up here the last couple of days, talking to all the cool Sydney people, and-
[00:00:52] Matt: It's nice up here. I don't really... Usually we stay in Sydney and Coogee. It's actually gorgeous. Sydney or,
[00:00:57] Hamish: uh, Coogee's beautiful.
[00:00:58] C- no, hang on, it's [00:01:00] Coogee. Coogee. Coogee. I got, my wife kept saying it's not Coogee- Mm-hmm ... it's Coogee.
[00:01:05] Matt: I can't take my top off. Everyone's got a six-pack there.
[00:01:08] Hamish: It's eastern suburbs. Yeah, I know. That's how it works. But I reckon we have, uh, probably the coolest Sydney person here today, Andy Marlow. Flattery will get you a long way in life.
[00:01:18] I'm still waiting for that Envirotecture project to come across my desk. We just signed ours first,
[00:01:24] Matt: two days ago. Yeah, well, we'll see how cool he is. Actually, I really enjoyed working with your team. Um, I give Ben, been brilliant. Awesome. I'll let him know. And he's, and he, I didn't know, he's just sort of come on board as well, and he's sort of really learning with the Passive House.
[00:01:36] He's
[00:01:37] Andy: been there for a while, man. Yeah. About a, about a year.
[00:01:39] Matt: Yeah, but that's still- Been a bit ... that it takes a good, uh, maybe a good segue. Like it- it's not something that you learn everything overnight, and click your fingers and changing the way that you've done things. Like, it's a process.
[00:01:50] Andy: Yeah, it is, but it helps when you work with a bunch of people who've done it before.
[00:01:54] Hamish: Very true. So who are you, Andy?
[00:01:57] Andy: Hi, my name's Andy Marlow. I'm one of [00:02:00] the directors at Envirotecture, and also Passive House Design and Construct. I'm an architect and a certified Passive House designer.
[00:02:07] Hamish: How long have you been- What don't you do?
[00:02:11] Andy: Um, I don't like washing dishes, but I'd rather cook.
[00:02:15] Hamish: Okay, well, that's a nice balance.
[00:02:16] So... Yeah.
[00:02:17] Andy: We grew up in a house where if you cooked, you didn't wash the dishes. Okay, that's- I hope my wife's listening to this, 'cause she tells
[00:02:21] Matt: me off for not doing both. That's equitable. Yeah, you need to do one or the other. I, I, I cook, and she's like, "Well, you can clean, too." Mm-mm. No, no, that's the way it goes.
[00:02:28] But I make a mess. It's my own fault.
[00:02:30] Hamish: I would, would... I'm not surprised that you make a mess in the kitchen.
[00:02:34] Matt: I'm one of those people that literally get like 15 bowls out and put all the veggies separate and then tip, tip, tip, tip.
[00:02:39] Hamish: After spending the last 24 hours with Matt- ... like, I think I said to you this before, I, I got on my phone yesterday and messaged my wife Lucy and said, "The past Hamish apologizes-
[00:02:54] for how ADHD I was without knowing it." 'Cause I've just spent the last, like, eight hours with [00:03:00] Matt, and it's fucking wild
[00:03:01] Matt: It's go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go I'm just like- Sleep ... '
[00:03:05] Hamish: cause I, I stop myself now. Like, I'm very conscious of it, and I've, I've sort of trained myself away f- you know, just to stop, and I'm sure Matt will get there.
[00:03:14] I don't know if I wanna. I like going. Wow.
[00:03:17] Andy: There's a difference between go and chaos. You can go and not have chaos. Some people like chaos.
[00:03:21] Hamish: I think some chaos is good, though. Yeah. I think, I think it probably works good for people like us. We have our
[00:03:26] Matt: ideas. Like, we gotta stop- Yeah ... having ideas.
[00:03:28] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:03:29] Matt: But, um, anyway- So-
[00:03:31] digressing a little bit ... archite- architecture first. Let's jump on architecture first. So- And y-
[00:03:35] Hamish: a- a- and y- you weren't born in Australia. You would've- No ... yeah, where were you born? Uh, England. England. How long have you been here for?
[00:03:40] Andy: Since 1995. What brought you over? What- Great year, 1995 ... came on, came on a plane.
[00:03:44] What brought you here? I came as a- Carlton in the finals
[00:03:47] Matt: I
[00:03:47] Hamish: thought
[00:03:48] Matt: you
[00:03:48] Andy: were gonna say- Well, that's unlikely to happen any time soon, hasn't it? No. Hello, Charlie.
[00:03:52] Matt: Um- He's doing shit. We had this conversation.
[00:03:55] Andy: He's doing okay. He's
[00:03:57] Matt: finding his feet. Um-
[00:03:58] Hamish: Three
[00:03:58] Matt: games in,
[00:03:59] Hamish: Matt. Come [00:04:00] on.
[00:04:00] Matt: You want him to fail. I think he's being lazy.
[00:04:02] I think he turned lazy a few years ago playing footy, that he wants it over the back too quickly and won't let up and- Anyway ...
[00:04:07] Hamish: mark. Anyway, what brought, what brought you over?
[00:04:09] Andy: Um, I came as a backpacker.
[00:04:11] Hamish: Yep.
[00:04:11] Andy: And basically realized, unsurprisingly, that this is really good, and England's less good, and I stayed.
[00:04:16] Hamish: Uh, did you start in Sydney and sort of land, like... Or did you move around, travel?
[00:04:21] Andy: Um, started here, did the backpacker up the East Coast thing, spent some time working on a farm in the middle of Western New South Wales.
[00:04:29] Hamish: Yep. Um,
[00:04:30] Andy: and then ended up back in Sydney. Basically lived here ever since. Well, apart from a five-year detour to the Blue Mountains.
[00:04:37] Hamish: Yep, and did you s- was this post study that you came over here?
[00:04:40] Andy: No, no. St- did all the study here. Took m- I spent about the first eight years here just working out what I wanted to do. Fair enough. Then decided to do this.
[00:04:49] Matt: Yep.
[00:04:49] Andy: And then started doing this. Yeah, no, I mean- Were you
[00:04:51] Matt: straight into architecture with Dick?
[00:04:53] Andy: Uh, I worked for Dick when I was a student. Then I went to work for a big firm in the city doing big stuff, which is where [00:05:00] I did Living Building Challenge project, and then I went back to work with Dick about 2014. So-
[00:05:07] Matt: Wait, so you did a Living Building Challenge project a long time ago.
[00:05:10] Andy: Yeah, we did the very first one in the country.
[00:05:13] Hamish: Wow. Interesting. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that's
[00:05:15] Andy: really cool. I did all the materials. Uh, I did all- We get to the... Before he gets told off. I did all the materials research for it and a few other bits and pieces as well. So I thought
[00:05:22] Hamish: this was a recent thing, the Living Building Ch- like, its own- No,
[00:05:24] Andy: it's been around for a while.
[00:05:25] Hamish: And, and it's interesting. So, so you- It's kicked off
[00:05:27] Andy: lately, but it's been
[00:05:29] Matt: around- It's hard. It's awesome, but hard. I don't- Really hard.
[00:05:31] Hamish: Has, um... I mean, look, we'll, we'll get to sort of what you guys do in a second, but has, has the environment, sustainability, all those kinds of sort of cliché buzzwords that we hear now always been a thing for you?
[00:05:43] Andy: Yeah
[00:05:43] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:05:44] Andy: Yeah. So my original motivation for starting the whole thing was I used to spend a lot of time driving through W- Western Sydney. Yeah. So through all the new suburb stuff- Yeah ... and just kinda going, "I don't understand why people build houses like this." Yep. For some reason thought it was a design issue, which it wasn't, it's a societal [00:06:00] issue.
[00:06:00] Um, but decided if I became an architect, I could make it better.
[00:06:03] Hamish: Have you? Mm,
[00:06:06] Andy: at a scale, yes. Is the scale something that I think is adequate? No. Yeah. But, you know, you start somewhere. Yeah. And we'll get to that, 'cause that's part of the Passive House design and construct thing- Yeah ... is the base scale. Yeah.
[00:06:18] Matt: I wanna go on Living Building Challenge a second.
[00:06:20] Andy: Okay.
[00:06:21] Matt: Um, do- for anyone who doesn't know, do you wanna give a quick rundown on what it is before I butcher it?
[00:06:25] Andy: Yep. Um, it originates out of America, and the lady who, um, wrote it or co-wrote it, um, explains it as, "It's called a challenge for a reason."
[00:06:33] Matt: Oh, and it's a ch- I looked at doing it for mine, and I was like, "Nope."
[00:06:36] I gave up very quickly. Yeah. What are, what
[00:06:37] Hamish: are, what are some of
[00:06:37] Andy: the things that you need to, um, need to tick off? You need to tick off basically all the same things that exist in most of the other ratings places, except you must do all of them, so there's no cherry-picking the easy shit, which is what, how Green Star and LEED work.
[00:06:50] You get points to get to a level to get a thing. Living Building Challenge, you just do it all and do it all well. Um, the things that are really hard are materials.
[00:06:59] Matt: Yeah, [00:07:00] materials petal, yeah. Materials
[00:07:00] Andy: petal. And so they've got a red list of materials, um, which you're not allowed to use, which includes things like UP or PVC, um, formaldehyde, a whole bunch of other stuff.
[00:07:11] Asbestos, lead. P-
[00:07:12] Hamish: PVC, PVC for- Anything ... pipes as well? Yep, yep, yep. Okay, so we're talking-
[00:07:16] Andy: HDPE pipes. Like, you have to... The point is they've picked the list because they're the commonly used materials in buildings that have issues. Interesting. Yeah, they're- Like, there's no point choosing you can't use cotton, 'cause you'd be like, "Well, who cares?"
[00:07:30] It's all, yeah. And so that's the part that's hardest. Yeah. So you can get certification for the whole building, which is what we did at the Wollongong project. It's a s- sustainable buildings research center for the University of Wollongong. Yeah. But you can also get petal certification. So the, the categories are broken up into petals, and so one of them is materials, but there's also, like, energy, water- Yeah
[00:07:50] site.
[00:07:50] Matt: And it's very American. Like, I, I did the course, and I kind of, I kind of gave up because it was becoming too Americanized in the sense of, like, this is talking about you need to get solar on the roof. It's like, duh. [00:08:00] Like, we... Uh, but then I started to realize like, no, they actually don't own their airspace for solar.
[00:08:03] So it kind of made sense with some of these things.
[00:08:07] Andy: There's lots of things that are... Like, stuff in Australia is real... Certain things are really easy. Like the water. No, water's really hard because one of the parts of the water is that no water- Sewage ... can leave your site. Yeah, actually, yeah. And so you've got to work out how to li- how to treat that water and do something useful with it.
[00:08:24] So you're on acreage, right?
[00:08:25] Hamish: Yeah. A couple of acres, yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:26] Andy: So yours is relatively easy. You're not on acreage. It's imp-
[00:08:29] Hamish: impossible.
[00:08:30] Andy: It's not impossible, but it's fricking hard. But I could- When,
[00:08:32] Hamish: when you say water can't leave the site in any form? Black water,
[00:08:36] Andy: sewage. You have to treat it all. What about stormwater?
[00:08:39] You have to treat it. To a reasonable degree. I, you kn- I can't remember the finer details. It was reasonably hard for us, 'cause it was the uni.
[00:08:48] Hamish: Yeah, so when we talk about water, we're talking about wastewater. All forms of
[00:08:51] Andy: water.
[00:08:52] Hamish: Even stormwater off- 'Cause you're
[00:08:54] Andy: not trying to dam- you're trying to protect your neighbors and not negatively impact on them.
[00:08:58] Stormwater's probably the
[00:08:58] Matt: easiest one, 'cause you can just send it into a [00:09:00] garden and, and-
[00:09:01] Hamish: Yeah, but still gotta go somewhere. Like if it- You've gotta have a garden ... you gotta have a garden. Yeah, no,
[00:09:03] Matt: that's what I'm saying, if you have space. So like- But e- e-
[00:09:05] Hamish: even, even in your home, you've got, you've got a huge catching, catching area I've got 5,000
[00:09:09] Matt: liters underground in it.
[00:09:10] Yeah, but,
[00:09:10] Hamish: but your roof, that, that would fill up in a massive, in a massive downpour, a 5,000 form of drum No, no, no. No, I, but I couldn't- I
[00:09:14] Andy: don't have a garden to then expel it. But that's what I'm saying. Yeah. That's the point. That's, that's the point. And so there's an urban agriculture part as well, so therefore, to some degree it's symbiotic.
[00:09:22] 'Cause now you've got this urban agriculture solution you had to come up with, which is related to the scale of your site. So you need to water that, so it's gonna not die. So that begins to help. But the point is, it's holistic.
[00:09:33] Matt: Yeah. I love it. It's increased... It's awesome. It is. It, it's, it's- Yeah, I love this
[00:09:36] I would love- Yeah, right ... it's, it's one of my building goals in my lifetime is to do one. I actually- Do you know what? I- I think that, I think I'd be like, "Okay, I'm done. I've done it." Like-
[00:09:44] Hamish: Challenge, challenge accepted, and you know, we live on a couple of acres, and we will build sometime in the next five or six years, and- Go for it
[00:09:51] we have, I think we have the perfect property for it.
[00:09:53] Andy: You do. I would definitely say that single resi in an urban environment is probably the hardest to do it on- [00:10:00] Yeah ... because of those just constraints of space. So you've gotta be able to
[00:10:04] Matt: edible garden. So you've gotta produce a certain- You've got all that though
[00:10:06] but not only, you gotta give it back to the community as well. Like, you've gotta, like, give it to a farmers market as well, a certain percentage. Done. Yeah, I know.
[00:10:11] Hamish: Done.
[00:10:12] Matt: Yeah.
[00:10:12] Hamish: I, I give watermelons away.
[00:10:15] Andy: Yeah.
[00:10:15] Matt: Yeah,
[00:10:15] Andy: there's like, so, uh, that, but this
[00:10:16] Hamish: is- How many watermelons do I have to give away?
[00:10:18] Andy: Um, they're nonspecific about how many, but they probably wanna know who, who you gave them to.
[00:10:23] So just keep a list.
[00:10:23] Hamish: So not, not the, not the- Not to Matt and Bambi ... not the well-to-do neighbors that live next door with river frontage? Uh, they're
[00:10:29] Andy: probably not too bothered, they just wanna, they just like to know.
[00:10:31] Matt: Okay. The materials pedal is a really interesting one, 'cause that's one thing I, I didn't track, but I started to really want in my own house to understand...
[00:10:38] It just made me aware of what is going into a house. So I don't... So perfect example is lead. Um, now in Victoria, we had a, they were going to change the rules recently where they were removing all lead from pipes. Mm-hmm. That was, they were pushing very, very, very hard. The government have just overturned it for another few years to be like, "Oh, it's a bit difficult."
[00:10:57] You can find the products out there. I know Faucet Strommen do it. They've been doing it for [00:11:00] years. But-
[00:11:01] Hamish: With, uh, for, to, for, for the record, Faucets- Faucet Strommen do not have lead in their-
[00:11:05] Matt: In the ones that I
[00:11:06] Hamish: purchased. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they don't. So, like- Yeah, I, I wouldn't want anyone to think that Faucet Strommen have lead.
[00:11:11] No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. So yeah. So you can- Yes ... so
[00:11:13] Matt: you can go down the, like understanding we don't want lead in our drinking water. So, but they've, they've stopped it, but I think the, the building codes board and the plumbing association have actually known, like, this needs to change. It's a government decision not to do it, from memory.
[00:11:26] It's like the opposite to what we usually argue. It's meant to
[00:11:28] Andy: be happening, right? 'Cause it's meant to all come out of everything to do with any form of taps. Yeah. And they keep postponing, postponing, postponing. But you- So just Pho- 'cause Phoenix had a range of stuff- Yeah, yeah ... that is lead-free. Maybe all their stuff is lead-free But the, and then one of the big mobs has just bought Phoenix.
[00:11:42] Like there's- Yeah, there's- ... movements around, 'cause they realize they need to get their act together, but they're also managing to delay the change. But it also, they didn't give them much time,
[00:11:50] Matt: and they all, most of them worked out, which is cool too.
[00:11:52] Andy: They've delayed it, like, three times. Have they? Yeah. I
[00:11:55] Matt: thought it was only, like, a- Uh-
[00:11:55] like, a time within, like, three years, five years. It's not, like, a long... So, you know sometimes they give them, "Hey, [00:12:00] it's 10 years to work this out"? But, like, three years to change a whole product in, across your board is, like, can be a bit of time. You've gotta set up new manufacturing facilities the way they do it, which is awesome, and I think three years is enough time as well, but it's a, I think it's the government that don't want to bring it in.
[00:12:15] The companies have actually done it.
[00:12:17] Hamish: I'm, I'm, I'm curious. I'm looking at this, um, right behind Matt now, we've got all this, uh, product covering this frame over here- Yep ... this sort of section. Is that part of the Living Building Challenge? So- Like, could we, could we put that stuff in? That... No, they're all Declare labeled.
[00:12:30] Proclima's- They're all Declare? Yeah. Okay, great.
[00:12:31] Andy: I was about to say, so there's a thing called Declare, which is a product labeling system that is set up by the International Living Future Institute. Great. And so that's your easy ticket on your job. So it's
[00:12:41] Hamish: like, it's like a, a certified passive house component?
[00:12:44] Effectively, yeah. The
[00:12:45] Matt: hardest one that you will find, that I struggled with, was the electrical cable, because they've all got a flame retardant in them.
[00:12:51] Hamish: All the ones that we've got now?
[00:12:53] Matt: Yeah, I'm pretty sure. That was what I struggled with the most when I started looking into it, and that's where I actually gave up.
[00:12:57] Hamish: Most
[00:12:57] Andy: things,
[00:12:58] Matt: there's a lot of flame
[00:12:58] Andy: retardants in a lot of things. [00:13:00] Yeah. There used to be a cable available when they did the Sydney Olympics that was bloody awesome, and they made it for the Olympics, 'cause there was a scale. Yeah. And they basically said, "It's the green Olympics, you must do this", so they did.
[00:13:11] And then nobody paid for it afterwards, 'cause it was expensive, and so they stopped.
[00:13:14] Matt: So, yeah. It proves that stuff- Can be done ... it's fixable. Yeah. Yeah, when there's the need. One of the polyester insulation, there's a Declare label on that. You'd be surprised the amount of products you actually have on your, that you're using, actually- I, I'd like-
[00:13:25] that can have a Declare label ... I'd, I would like
[00:13:26] Hamish: to, I would like to think that, you know, being a reasonably conscious person, that I would be gravitating towards products that are-
[00:13:33] Matt: Dulux Aero 2- Yeah ... paint is Declare label as well. That's another one that we always make sure we use on our projects- Yeah
[00:13:38] 'cause it's high service area. Yeah. Um, it's just about, it's, it's just the f- think of the Declare label, if anyone doesn't know, as a, you go to Coles, you pick up a piece of, I don't know, packet of something, you check out the ingredients. That's pretty much what they're disclosing the ingredients, and then independently someone ticks it off.
[00:13:52] Hamish: Before, before we get stuck too much on this Living Building Challenge, 'cause it is very interesting, and I could k- keep asking questions for the next 45 minutes, have you done any more [00:14:00] since that large project in our Envirotecture?
[00:14:02] Andy: Um, there's one under construction at the moment in Melbourne that Talina worked on, which he, or is still working on, which is a bungalow retrofit, and it was gonna do Living Building Challenge.
[00:14:14] It stopped at the very last minute. I, my recollection is that they ran into serious cost issues around FSC-certified framing timber. Huh. Really? Yep. Yeah. Because they couldn't get F... That's my recollection. I will come back to you if I was wrong. That's a, that's
[00:14:27] Matt: an i- that's an interesting one. I would've thought that would be a relatively easier one to fix.
[00:14:33] Hamish: You would think so, that y- yeah, okay, well, yeah, yeah ... I believe, I believe that
[00:14:36] Andy: cost was- I don't know if it was double, but it was close- it was a li- a massive percentage increase- Interesting ... and it was for framing timber and the p- it's- And is it PEFC? Is
[00:14:45] Matt: that-
[00:14:45] Andy: No. No, no, no. No. I don't know nothing about this.
[00:14:48] FSC. Yeah, but
[00:14:48] Matt: so they, they're distinctively different, are they? Yeah, different enough. Yeah, okay. Let me
[00:14:52] Andy: put it this way. There are forests in New South Wales where we chop down trees and koalas don't no longer have somewhere to live, and they're PEFC certified.
[00:14:59] Matt: And a lot of the time [00:15:00] we, we not... But the, the other thing is, like, we, we bring all these other, "Stop cutting down these forests", but then we just go cut someone else down across the road, ne- another country.
[00:15:09] Like merbu- like, merbu's a perfect example of, like, product we shouldn't have or be able to sell.
[00:15:15] Andy: Sorry, what?
[00:15:16] Matt: Merbu decking.
[00:15:17] Andy: Oh, yeah. Well, some- but some of that's FSC certified, so you can get that from a reliable source.
[00:15:23] Hamish: Yeah. My... Well, we're going down a rabbit hole here, but that's fine. Did you expect anything different with this subject?
[00:15:29] It's a big, it's a very, it's a very... Yeah, it's a big rabbit hole, but, you know, okay, yes, you can get FSC certified merbu- Mm. But w- the, the, the forest that was there before that FSC certified forest or timber, what was there beforehand, and was, how, what's the origin of that forest being cut down?
[00:15:45] Matt: Someone just have enough money to buy it?
[00:15:47] Mm. That's
[00:15:47] Hamish: kind of my issue with it all because, like, w- yes, yes, now the stuff coming out of it is, is, is FSC certified- Mm ... um, but it's also a monoculture as well. Sure. So the... I don't know. I don't know, I don't know. I'm not saying that I pr- profess to have [00:16:00] the answers here- I don't know after that stuff, yeah
[00:16:01] 'cause, 'cause it's challenging 'cause we all wanna build with timber, and then you go down the, the use sort of path and say, "Well, we should build in steel," and I've got problems with that. Yeah. So anyway, what- Just don't build. I, I
[00:16:11] Andy: think you end up concluding that it's all bad to some degree. Yes. And a lot of it you're just looking for less bad.
[00:16:16] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. What is less bad? And that's- Yeah ... problematic. And living- Yeah ... building
[00:16:19] Andy: challenge is trying to do the basically more good-
[00:16:22] Hamish: More good and- ... and that's why it's such a challenge ... do more good, do more good and less bad should definitely- Honestly, have a look
[00:16:27] Matt: into it. It's, it's, it's, it's fun. Like, 'cause you actually...
[00:16:31] Yeah, when you, when you, and, and I encourage every architect builder to, to understand that declare label list, um, and understand the red list. I think that's a really important starting point, just to be aware of it. And
[00:16:42] Hamish: do you know what? E- even, y- you're absolutely right, and even if you're not, e- if, if it gets to the point where it becomes too challenging, still implement some of those learnings.
[00:16:49] One
[00:16:49] Matt: product's
[00:16:49] Hamish: better
[00:16:49] Matt: than
[00:16:50] Hamish: none.
[00:16:50] Andy: Yep. We're always trying to do one new thing or new product or new something on every job that wildly change, that wildly changes as to what it is each time. Yep. But, you [00:17:00] know, if nothing else, it keeps it interesting.
[00:17:01] Hamish: But then it becomes normal, becomes, you know- Yeah. It's change starts somewhere
[00:17:04] you gotta cha- you gotta ch-
[00:17:05] Andy: you gotta challenge yourself, otherwise you get bored. And you get bored. Yeah. Yeah. Like-
[00:17:08] Hamish: So, um, you, you, you came into Envirotech. It's not something you started?
[00:17:14] Andy: Correct. Yeah. So Dave Clark founded it- Yeah ... back in the late '90s. Yep. Um, and so he's got a long history of basically- '90s.
[00:17:22] Hamish: It's like 30-odd years ago. Yeah. Wow. Good choice of
[00:17:24] Andy: name, hey? Yeah.
[00:17:25] Hamish: Wow. Yep.
[00:17:26] Andy: Um, and so yeah, he, he started it out of his frustration, ironically, with being, doing design and construction- So he stopped the building part and started just doing the design part. So he's a builder? He was a builder. Yeah. He's also done naval architecture and a whole-
[00:17:40] and built a business making surfboards. But he was much younger back then, and just was crazy- I've actually ta- I've actually
[00:17:45] Hamish: talked to him on the phone before. He's an interesting cat. So ironically,
[00:17:47] Matt: you kinda... We'll get to you going back to what Dick didn't
[00:17:51] Andy: like doing. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Have you told him this yet?
[00:17:52] Yeah, no, he's pa- he was part of that, of when we started it. Yeah, okay. So yeah, the whole PHDC thing was quite comical for us, 'cause it was like, "Gee, you started- Full circle ... to get away from this." It's [00:18:00] like, "We're back." Yeah, exactly. So anyway, but back knowing a lot of the pitfalls, I guess. Yeah. And so yeah, so Dick started it mid-'90s.
[00:18:07] Yeah. And, um, basically did a lot of really good work the whole way through.
[00:18:12] Hamish: Yep. And then the evolution is that, uh, Talina jumped on board in 2020...
[00:18:18] Andy: End of '22. '22. So we're just over three years merged
[00:18:21] Matt: now. Yeah. Have you been talking to each other for a while for that sort of stuff? Yeah. 'Cause it's sort of like, I remember Brad said, like, "Talina, you re-..."
[00:18:27] Like he said, he's like, "I wanna ask Talina, like she's already doing like fucking cool shit. Why would she join forces with someone else?" 'Cause he's like, "She's doing so good." More good. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. You put two brains together. Yeah. But he was, he, um- Do
[00:18:39] Hamish: more good. Yeah. And not that she was doing bad.
[00:18:41] No. No, no, no, no, no, no. But she's just doing more
[00:18:42] Andy: good. More good. She's doing more good. How you do more good. And you know, there's a lot of duplicity between what we were do- like just running two businesses. Like why would you run two businesses when you can run one business if it's doing the same thing?
[00:18:53] Matt: Yeah. Like there's
[00:18:54] Andy: a bu- bunch of that stuff.
[00:18:55] Matt: And you're used to having a business partner too.
[00:18:57] Andy: Well, part of it was, so Dick's now re- formally retired. He [00:19:00] still does whatever we need, whenever we need, but he's formally out. Um, and I never wanted to do it by myself. Like I, it was alway- it was sort of inevitably what was gonna happen unless I consciously made another decision.
[00:19:13] And so the evolution of knowing Talina and where we got to where we got to was like, that was fairly natural, but it coincided with me wanting to find another business
[00:19:23] Matt: partner. But you aligned. That's the, that's like- Absolutely ... and that's, I think that's the key for anyone wanting to go in business with someone.
[00:19:28] You need to be like on the same page with the direction of what you stand for. Yeah. I
[00:19:32] Hamish: think you need to be on the same page in values, but then different enough to contribute different things. Different things.
[00:19:37] Andy: Yeah. No, and so we have, to some degree, lines of, "This is your department, this is my department."
[00:19:43] Yeah, yeah. And then we have a bunch of stuff which does cross over. Yeah. And it works. Where you can
[00:19:47] Hamish: come and meet in the middle and- Yeah ... talk through ideas and yeah. And there's a bunch
[00:19:50] Andy: of stuff where it's like, "I wanna do this, this and this. Is that okay?" And she'll be like, "Yep, I trust you." And we've got o- the other side where it, the roles are reversed.
[00:19:58] Matt: And you had history before in a [00:20:00] sense of like you both have proven that you can do it. Like it's not like, oh, it's this new space you're entering into. It's not like
[00:20:05] Hamish: either of, either of the businesses were failing. No. You know? It were doing pretty all
[00:20:09] Matt: right. Yeah. Do you, do you like, uh, I can imagine when you got two extremely passionate people, you might not wanna answer this, that the conversations can get quite robust because like you're so passionate and you both want the same outcome, and I feel like this is a big part of the industries.
[00:20:24] We all, in this bubble, passive solar, passive house, like we're all wanting the same outcome, but some reason we all fight. Do you, like, or argue or, "This is better, that's better"? Do you guys ever have, like, that-
[00:20:36] Hamish: I wouldn't say that we all fight- No, no fighting is not the word. I just- There's some ex- See, there, there are some examples where one position may not agree with the other position.
[00:20:43] Yeah. I think that's healthy.
[00:20:45] Andy: Yeah. Oh, look, a good debate is useful. That's how you- Yeah ... get better and learn and, you know, I guess, better your arguments about why you have the position you do. Talina and I don't really have anything that we disagree with. And that's why I asked the que- like, is it- We just...
[00:20:58] Like, I'm not much of a [00:21:00] fighter. She's, from what I know, I know her pretty well, isn't much of a fighter either. Yeah. Like, you know, if I disagree, I'll say, "I don't think that that's right." But at the same time, if ultimately one of us makes a call, depending on what the topic is- You trust ... and you're just like, "I don't actually...
[00:21:15] I, I would do it differently. However, I don't fundamentally disagree with you." Yeah. "I just think it could be different", go for it.
[00:21:22] Matt: That's probably a bit like us. Like- Yeah ... we sometimes are like... You're like, "I don't agree." I'm like, "Yeah, cool. I trust you. Go for it."
[00:21:27] Hamish: Yep. Yeah. And vice versa. But yeah,
[00:21:29] Matt: like it's...
[00:21:29] Hamish: And, and what's- Actually, we've always got conversations back and forth saying, "Uh, I actually don't know if I'd do that, but you know what? Fill your boots." A- and, but what's- "Go for it" ... and
[00:21:36] Matt: what's the, what's the worst? Like, I'll help him pick up the pieces. Well, look, I mean- Like, that's, that, that... Or if I said-
[00:21:41] Hamish: W- when you do the wrong
[00:21:42] Matt: thing- No, no, yeah
[00:21:43] you pick up the pieces. But like, like you, like if I, if I make a bad call, you're gonna be like, "Fuck me, we should've done it," but let's... Okay. Oh, learn, move on. Yeah, let's... How do we fix it? Yeah, learn, move on. Learn, move on. Like you fell forward. Yep. Um, so, uh- What... Hang
[00:21:54] Hamish: on. Be- before you close out on, like, in Virtech's chat- Yep
[00:21:56] what does, what does the team look like? 'Cause I know Talina's in Ballarat. Yep. Is there people [00:22:00] there and there's people up in Sydney? How does, how does that all dynamic work?
[00:22:03] Andy: Yep. So there's currently, uh, Talina plus two in Ballarat, plus, uh, Courtney's on maternity leave at the moment with- Interior designer Courtney, yeah.
[00:22:11] Yep. Yeah. Um, so there's normally four of them down there, and then at the moment, we are five up here in Sydney. About to move offices, as we were talking about before we started. Um, yeah. Exciting. And
[00:22:21] Matt: most, is most of your work Sydney-based, or do you like... Will you do Melbourne work and she'll do Sydney work, or it's very-
[00:22:26] Andy: Uh, we mostly split it geographically, so mostly it's- Yeah
[00:22:30] Talina and Ballarat do everything in Victoria. We do everything in New South Wales. Anything that's in another state just depends. But we don't do huge amounts in other places, and nothing ever happens in Queensland. Oh,
[00:22:40] Matt: fuck. She's been- Well, actually- ... to Queensland a lot over the last- There's lots happening in Queensland.
[00:22:44] Really? Just not in the passive house- Spice Ca- Spice Girls just come out in Queensland. Not the, not, not in the passive house stuff. Spice Girls just come out in Queensland. Right.
[00:22:50] Hamish: Oh, Matt. Oh, you know.
[00:22:52] Andy: I don't wanna know. Robbie Williams is touring. I think that's more interesting, but anyway.
[00:22:56] Hamish: When
[00:22:56] Andy: he's 50. I would go and see Robbie Williams.
[00:22:57] I watched his Netflix thing, and I thought it was hilarious. [00:23:00] He was awesome
[00:23:00] Matt: at the grand final a few years ago, actually. Yeah. He was like, "This
[00:23:01] Andy: is really cool." That was the best moment of that whole day. Oh. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, you're a Sydney supporter, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. He was awesome. Let's move on. He was...
[00:23:12] Um,
[00:23:15] Matt: I... You did a recent article, and I wanna bring this up. Eight- 'Cause Passive House, they five principles, but you did eight. And you've added in performance and comfort, thermal modeling, and quality assurance. Just wanna talk about this. I, I read it, and I was like, "Duh, like why has no one talked about this?"
[00:23:33] Andy: I don't know the answer to why no one's talked about it. Um, to be fair, I knocked it off from the UK Passive House Trust. Uh- Ideas have gotta come from somewhere.
[00:23:41] Hamish: Every- So what is it, thermal modeling?
[00:23:44] Andy: It's around the fact that Passive House is not just the five things that you physically build, and there's a whole argument about whether they're principles or not, 'cause how can a window be a principle?
[00:23:53] But it's around the fact that you've got-
[00:23:55] Hamish: What did Jesse say? You don't build with principles? Nah. Uh, [00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Andy: you, you can build in a principled way, though. Yeah, but,
[00:24:03] Hamish: but a window is not a principle. I'm not gonna- Exactly. Exactly ... I'm not gonna argue with Jesse, he's too smart. Yeah,
[00:24:07] Andy: yeah. And so this is around saying that, yeah, there are the, these things that are the physical bits, right?
[00:24:12] Hamish: And they're- Yeah, air tightness, thermal bridge reconstruction, c- air ti- uh, continuous insulation- Oh, I see them, windows ... windows, a- uh, HRV. Did I g- did I get them all? Yeah. Thermal bridge re- Yeah ... thermal bridge reconstruction. Those things. Yeah. Those things,
[00:24:24] Andy: yep. Yep. But none of them on, in and of themselves guarantee anything, and therefore what you need are basically reliable metrics, so like why, like 15 kilowatt-hours per s- per square meter per year for heating, for cooling, those sorts of things.
[00:24:39] So you need those reliable metrics. You need a modeling approach to actually model them to know that the thing that you've got is gonna deliver that, and then you need a QA system in order to make sure that it actually happens. 'Cause at the end of the day, I can design the best building in the world, and then somebody can royally stuff it up on site, and-
[00:24:57] Matt: Yep
[00:24:57] you're screwed. Yeah. So th- 'cause I was gonna ask you [00:25:00] why you didn't include shading as one of the principles, but it kinda makes sense. It's, it's in windows. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned- Yeah, yeah ... windows
[00:25:04] Andy: is windows, doors, and shading. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause that's what I was gonna, like, yeah. Huh. Because it's not an appropriate window if it faces due east, is 23 square meters, and has no shading.
[00:25:15] Because- It's just not a window ... yeah, it's gonna overheat. Yep.
[00:25:16] Matt: You just might as well just o- not build anything in there.
[00:25:19] Andy: Well, look, there's a whole argument- Yeah ... if you should just live in a tent. Um, 'cause it's, you know, cheaper and nicer and you can move it around. So, it's-
[00:25:26] Matt: No, d- I, I, I, and as builders, the quality assurance is vital.
[00:25:31] Like, or I, I, I don't think... I, I think if we added quality assurance into any building that it solves 80% maybe of the problems we'd have in construction.
[00:25:41] Andy: As long as you've got a stick to hit somebody with at the end, 'cause there's no point in knowing it's crap unless you've got a stick. So our solution to that, so you've just signed- Yeah
[00:25:48] a building contract, right? Somewhere in the scope of works- Yeah ... it's like, "This building will be .6 air changes or less."
[00:25:54] Matt: And we, and in the contract we added there, um, which I found really interesting, 'cause usually Cam will send it off to Hit B Hive to [00:26:00] get appr- or to Doug Green to get approved, that he's modeling matches, uh, what has...
[00:26:05] Like, he's checking himself, but Andy signed off on- Uh, who did yours? I'm forgetting. Noah. Noah O'Donnell. Noah, that's his... I should remember. That's my daughter's name as well. I should remember. But he, he did it, so Andy's checked it, which I thought was really cool, 'cause they're trying to keep the cost low, and he's like, "I, I'm owning it."
[00:26:19] Um, but where I was getting- ... getting with that, he's like, "We've added that to our contract, too, as well as, 'Hey, we'll achieve .6.'" So we've got a very def- if, and it won't, something goes wrong, it's like we've got two very dis- easy points to, to reference to start with.
[00:26:34] Hamish: Yeah, okay. So you're not saying... So that probably, uh, goes to my concern around contracting, saying that you're gonna deliver a Passive House.
[00:26:42] No, no. Okay,
[00:26:43] Andy: you, you as a builder cannot be required to do that. Yeah,
[00:26:45] Hamish: exactly. Yeah. Which is, which is great. I'm really happy to hear that. The .6, happy days. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. And, and, and, and
[00:26:51] Matt: installing as per what? That certificate that Andy's giving me? As per that, I think. Bu-
[00:26:56] Hamish: bu- building as designed.
[00:26:57] Yeah.
[00:26:57] Matt: Yeah.
[00:26:58] Andy: Which to be fair, is actually in every [00:27:00] building contract, right? Yeah. Should build it as documented. There appears to be a slightly slack attitude to that- Yes ... in a lot of cases.
[00:27:06] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I... The other day, and g- and this goes back to quality assurance, maybe a little bit off tangent, but it's relevant.
[00:27:12] I've reached out to understand what it would cost to have a waterproofing inspection and a pre-plaster inspection. Gotta work out how you do pre-plaster with Passive Houses. It... Do you do two of them, because it's pre and post? I think
[00:27:23] Hamish: there needs to be two. Yeah. We do two scans.
[00:27:25] Matt: Yeah, yeah. So we... No, from...
[00:27:26] So I'm independent inspector. Yeah. And I've been chatting to BSS Group like, "Hey, part of our process now to the client, we're gonna do a waterproof inspection and a pre-plaster report. You're gonna get them." Yeah. Just, just, if we don't have anything, it's like the building survey, we don't give it to you.
[00:27:40] But, "Hey, these are the things we got. We're just letting you know. We're gonna go fix them." S- so I, like, w- it's an extra $500 per inspection.
[00:27:47] Andy: In New South Wales, the waterproofing one is mandated by law. In California, there is apparent- uh, from memory, I think it's 29 inspections during a construction
[00:27:55] Matt: project.
[00:27:56] Oh. Whoa. What, what would you inspect for 29?
[00:27:59] Andy: I'm unsure. The [00:28:00] inspect- the inspector's shoes. I'm, I don't know. It seem, that seems like a lot. I couldn't think of 29 things to inspect. Well, I mean- I could also be wrong. Just- No, but that's pretty, that's-
[00:28:08] Hamish: There's, there's, there's a, the, uh- There's a lot more than seven
[00:28:09] we, we, okay, we, we know that, we know that we need more. Yes. But we don't- Yeah ... I don't know if we do any 29. But qual- the quality
[00:28:14] Matt: assurance is... The p- thing that I love about the quality assurance with this, it's not to, with Passive House, it's not to, uh, try hold... Though ultimately there's a responsibility.
[00:28:21] It goes on, say, Andy and I. But it's, it's a shared, we're try- like if the champion of the project is to, to hold that accountable. The quality assurance is to actually make sure that we're trying to do, like if a client wants a pink kitchen, we build a pink kitchen. I can't make that blue. This is just no different.
[00:28:36] It's just around performance. Yep.
[00:28:38] Andy: It's fundamentally, I mean, this is how we explain it to clients, it's fundamentally about you're getting what you paid for.
[00:28:43] Matt: Do you have to explain it to clients anymore? People just know this is what Envirotech stands for.
[00:28:47] Andy: N- the certification part, like we get the question like, "Why bother?"
[00:28:51] If you think about it, right, so you, you get to the point, you're near a con- you're near signing a contract. Yeah. It's already designed. Everything's in place. The contract says that you're gonna deliver the [00:29:00] .6. So then fairly valid question is why do I need the certification? And the answer for us is because we're human, and the builder's human, and we all make mistakes.
[00:29:09] Yep. This is your way to make sure you get what you pay for. Yeah.
[00:29:11] Hamish: As Fen said, it's like the perfect insurance policy.
[00:29:14] Matt: Yeah. It's hard, 'cause like you go, "Hey, Hamish and Andy are building together. How many done?" And it's like- Do you know who's the same height- But, but as a client, I would go like, "Why?" ... who built together,
[00:29:20] Hamish: and it's like Hamish and Andy?
[00:29:21] Oh. That'd be adorable. But that, but it'll be- No, we are ...
[00:29:25] Matt: but it'll be pretty, like you... I- if I'm gonna be the client, like, it'd be a hard sell, 'cause like why... Hamish has done that multiple times. I know he's gonna make it work. I know you've done it, but as you said- Yeah, yeah ... mistakes happen. Yeah,
[00:29:34] Hamish: but I think we've talked about this before.
[00:29:36] It's a, it's different- I know ... conversation if, if, if it's talking specifically about you and me, and I'm not saying that we're the fucking bee's knees, but we've got experience- Got to start somewhere ... and we've got, we've got, um, runs of the ball when it comes to building certified buildings. Someone else doesn't.
[00:29:50] No, I agree. And we wanna bring more people into building these homes, so that's where the QA comes into it. Well,
[00:29:54] Andy: and the other thing is, so let's pretend that Matt's our client, and gee, that'd be fun, eh? So, [00:30:00] but Matt, and then Matt sells his house in three years' time, and he says, "Yeah, but Hamish built it."
[00:30:03] Yeah. And the new person- Means nothing ... is like, "Who?"
[00:30:06] Matt: So this is- Yeah, that's a good point ... a really interesting point now, because, like, we haven't had this happen, well, we can see, we'd say Dylan's house, he sold it. Is, is there like a handover guide that's got to be part of, like, the Section 32? I don't
[00:30:18] Andy: know what a Section 32 is.
[00:30:19] Of a contract. But, but a handover guide, I mean, we do a handover manual for all of our projects.
[00:30:24] Matt: But what if, what if the new owner never gets it, and all of a sudden they're not changing the filters and there's... Like, this has got to be probably discussed. Mm-hmm. It's a really- Everything ...
[00:30:32] Hamish: it's a good point, actually.
[00:30:33] Yeah.
[00:30:33] Andy: I mean, part of that sits on the owner handing over the building to the new person, going, you know, in the same way that, like- Yeah, well said, yeah ... here, here's the oven. But that's a really
[00:30:40] Hamish: interesting question actually, because where would the liability lie then? If we don't know that the client sold a house and they're my cl- Because we go into a maintenance program where they get, uh, emails, quarterly emails to remind them to do stuff.
[00:30:51] Mm. What happens if they just unsubscribe from those emails, never tell that client or the new purchaser, but I'm on the hook as a builder if [00:31:00] something goes wrong.
[00:31:00] Andy: You'll probably go well in court, because you'll have done all the right things you could have done. Mm. Doesn't mean it's the right answer.
[00:31:06] Yeah. But you need some form of building passport thing. There's a couple of tech things that apparently do it, but you're still stuck with the part that people, A, need to pass it on to the next person, and you need to action it. Like, it's like termite inspections. Yeah. Like, everyone knows what the rules say.
[00:31:19] No one does it. And then everyone gets surprised when the house is getting eaten
[00:31:21] Matt: by termites. The other, the other part is, like, if someone's built a Passive House, I would be pretty shocked if they didn't advertise that it's a Passive House. So most likely someone's gonna go, "What's that?" Or they know what it is.
[00:31:34] Yeah. So, and yeah, so that, that kind of does that. Um-
[00:31:39] Hamish: What problem is, uh, Passive House Design and Construct solving?
[00:31:43] Andy: So what it set out to do, so it... We started it and launched it just before COVID. Um- Perfect timing. It was awesome timing. Really good. Just, just like now. Yeah. Don't worry, I've thought about that in the last few weeks as well.
[00:31:55] I might actually deliberately not launch it yet. Yeah. Hold off. It will [00:32:00] start, it's a collabora- it started off as a collaboration between us and two Sydney builders who had both built projects, Passivhaus projects for us, um, who we've known for a while and done various things with and known and trusted.
[00:32:10] And it started from the basis that basically we've all done this together before, and therefore, we can basically do it faster and cheaper because we know what we're doing, we've done it before. But we're still doing custom design.
[00:32:22] Matt: Hmm.
[00:32:22] Andy: And so the fundamental flaw is we were still doing custom design, and it turns out it doesn't really matter how many times you've done it, because while you get better at it and slightly quicker, it still takes what it takes.
[00:32:32] It's what Alter
[00:32:32] Matt: Eco are finding. Everyone wants to change something. Yep.
[00:32:35] Andy: And so, and this is the thing. So everyone's had a crack at this in their various different forms. Um, I've seen the Alter Eco version of the world. There's a whole bunch of others that are not wildly dissimilar, and they all fall over because people want to change stuff.
[00:32:49] And so Passivhaus Design & Construct is absolutely rigidly, these are the buildings that we have designed. Everything is detailed. You can choose between, like, a few material choices, [00:33:00] color choices, that sort of stuff- Which doesn't change any, yeah ... the geometry is the same, right? The key thing is the geometry is the same, and you can't change that.
[00:33:08] Matt: Can you invert them? No. So what if, like, you've got, like, the, depending on the s- the orientation you want- There will be
[00:33:13] Andy: different designs- Okay. Yeah ... for different orientations. Like, we've got to build the whole thing out, so it's a bit of a over time- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... kind of a thing. And so the point is, like, do you like this?
[00:33:22] It's gonna cost you, let's say it's eight hundred and twenty-two thousand dollars, whatever the number might be. Do you like it? Yes. Great. Sign here. We'll build it for you. If your response is, "Yeah, but I'd just like to move that wall", that's like, that's lovely. Envirotech is over here. We do custom design.
[00:33:37] 'Cause we've done enough of these projects. We worked with Carbon Lite for ages on their Rubicase thing- Uh-huh ... which was- Yeah. Uh-huh ... same, same but different, and every time that we had to get involved was because people wanted to change stuff, and as soon as that happened, the time blew out massively. I don't know what proportion of them eventually fell over because all of the assumptions, when they've said at the start, "It's gonna cost X", were based on the engineering they [00:34:00] already had, the model they already had- Yeah
[00:34:01] the cutting machine, everything was ready to go, and now you've moved it all. It's like, it's quicker to start again. Yeah. And you lose all the cost benefits. And
[00:34:08] Matt: that's what we were like, and even you think, "Oh, it's just moving the toilet wall a hundred mil", that could screw the whole structure up from a bridge beam up above.
[00:34:17] Andy: And so the point, the broad point is, is like, so at the moment, whatever your number is, it costs X to build a custom design house in either of our- Yeah ... locations, right? Mm-hmm. We strongly believe you can do it for roughly the same size thing for about two to three hundred K less by stripping out a whole bunch of costs to do with design fees, engineering.
[00:34:40] You still need some of these things, but you need them in a much more limited- Yeah ... format. And the other, the, the, the logic and the rationale with the builders we've got involved, so we've got the three in Sydney at the moment, um, and we've got a bunch of others that we were talking to in all the other- different places who've all expressed interest along the way, and-
[00:34:56] Hamish: That was, I don't remember getting a phone call about that one, but that's fine.
[00:34:59] So have
[00:34:59] Matt: you got, yeah, [00:35:00] have you got, like, certain areas? So for example- You will. You will. Hamish is like, he's in, he's, this is his area if it goes in there. Yep. This is Matt's, this is Andy's- Yep ... and you don't cross over or you don't go.
[00:35:09] Andy: We, that's what we're doing i- in the other places. In the Sydney one, we've got a different setup because of how we, the whole thing kicked off.
[00:35:15] Yeah. Um, but the point is that these projects are not designed to replace all your other projects, but they're designed to slot in. Yep. They're designed to be low touch, is probably the nice way to put it. So you spend, I don't know how many hours talking to your clients from the moment they ring to the moment- Yeah, yeah
[00:35:33] you finish, right? We're not saying that that's a bad thing, but what... Sorry. What we're saying is that the volume of hours you put into it is a bad thing and contributes to the cost. Oh, this- Same with us, right? You spend too much time talking, not enough time doing. Yep. Right? It's the nature. 2,200. We've done 2,200.
[00:35:46] It's why volume builders don't have meetings with the clients every week. Cool. And so what we're saying is that those numbers are massively cut because the only thing you've really got to talk about is being nice to each other, signing a couple of contracts, and taking them round the building and going, "Oh look, it's the [00:36:00] thing that you knew it was 'cause it was already designed."
[00:36:01] Mm. And so there's no, there's no faffing around. And that's- And
[00:36:05] Matt: if they wanna make a variation, they're gonna get absolutely reamed probably for it. There
[00:36:07] Andy: are no variations. That's not the point. There aren't any. I mean-
[00:36:10] Matt: No, but the c- the
[00:36:10] Andy: thing is, I don't know if our contracts say that, like if a client wants a variation on site, like- You can refuse.
[00:36:16] The standard contract says you can refuse and give no re- That's such faff ... and give no reason, which I think is wrong, but anyway. Um, but that's- That's, can, I can run with that one ... but that's the setup. That's good. Depends on your contract. New South Wales contracts, you do not need to give a reason for not doing a variation.
[00:36:28] Huh. Interesting. It's weird. I don't know why it exists, 'cause why wouldn't you tell them?
[00:36:32] Matt: Um- It's, uh, you could just say, "I just don't wanna do it," and that's at least a fair, "I'm just not-" It's honest. Yeah.
[00:36:36] Andy: But the, the broad point is that it's pre-designed. Yeah, like- Like, it's rock solidly obvious that this is what you get.
[00:36:44] You don't get to change it. And so from a builder's perspective, what we've all been agreeing behind the scenes is, 'cause we're trying to get prices, they're not the same everywhere, but they're gonna... 'Cause obviously, like insulation thickness changes in a few places, those sorts of things. Yeah. Um, and so we're getting to a point, it's like it [00:37:00] doesn't need to be full bore margin because your prelims have fallen off a cliff because you don't need to cover all of the other crap you normally do, because you will just bang through this really, really quickly and just
[00:37:12] Matt: get them
[00:37:12] Andy: done.
[00:37:13] Matt: So how about with everyone's margin, like for example, my, my overheads would be different to Hamish's. How do we cover that part?
[00:37:18] Andy: You still, you still price the thing. Like, you still get to put a price in for the thing.
[00:37:23] Matt: You've just got a reference point on what it-
[00:37:25] Andy: But what I, I, I've got them from multiple people for the same building in different locations, and so we know roughly what that needs to be for the different things, and as we add to the thing, that's how that will be.
[00:37:34] Yep. That, that's how that all begins to work. And, and, I mean, and, and arguably
[00:37:37] Hamish: you can work out from a, um, time in pre-construction versus what percentage of that is y- of your overheads. Like, you can work what, out what that number is f- and then you get, then you can figure out what your markup is. So it might be 25%, but it might come down to 20%.
[00:37:51] Yeah, yeah,
[00:37:51] Andy: yeah, 'cause of the efficiency. Yeah, yeah, no. Yep. And the other thing is, the idea is that you will build multiple versions, and so- Efficiency ... have you ever built the [00:38:00] same house twice? Yeah, I have, three
[00:38:01] Matt: times. Never. But again, they slightly change things. Yeah. And so the- Where?
[00:38:05] Hamish: Which one?
[00:38:06] Matt: Uh, Forest Street, Champion Road.
[00:38:08] They're all actually exactly the same.
[00:38:09] Hamish: Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, they're all
[00:38:10] Matt: prototypes, but they're just slightly... Like
[00:38:13] Andy: again, things- Did, right, did they get faster from one to... I've never met anyone who's done this, so.
[00:38:17] Matt: No, they, they, they don't. The, the first one was our first ever passive house. Mm-hmm. So there's a...
[00:38:23] Yes, naturally we got faster and we learned from it. But what, what we did is we learnt for the second one was we learned the mistakes and fixed those mistakes. Yes. The third of... Actually, I've done two s- so I've done, no, I've did, I did a prototype on another different design. The third will be interesting, 'cause I think that you know now where things go.
[00:38:41] So that, I think you would actually see the efficiencies come out in the third, and you know, "Hey, we didn't allow enough on our wall battens, but we had four times as much framing." So you kind of get the data to start refining, knowing- When have you ever had four times as much on framing? I'm, I'm just using exa- I'm just using example.
[00:38:57] Just please- Wow. Bloody hell ... but no, I, I think there [00:39:00] are... Yeah, and the other, the other hard part is it would be, where the change I would see being the problem is the soil conditions. That's the one thing we learned too.
[00:39:09] Andy: But again, that's you can't-
[00:39:10] Matt: But
[00:39:11] Andy: that's site-specific, and will always be a provisional sum- Yeah, yeah
[00:39:14] and it's just what it is. I th- I think,
[00:39:15] Hamish: you know, 'cause are they all slab on ground?
[00:39:17] Andy: That's the thing. No, preferably not.
[00:39:19] Hamish: Pre- Oh, 'cause you, you- But then
[00:39:20] Andy: we've got a version, we've got a version for each, slab on ground and suspended wood
[00:39:23] Matt: Are you, are you- That'd be the safest method of pricing, because it, all you're then doing is adding board piers or not having them.
[00:39:31] That would be the safest that I have learned- Yeah, if it was slab
[00:39:33] Andy: on... That, that's what I was about to- It's, yeah, yeah ... that's what I was about to get to, because- But it's always site-specific, right? Yeah. There's just a bunch of sites where you can't- Yeah ... do one or the other- Yeah, yeah Yeah ... in a cost-effective manner.
[00:39:40] Slab, yeah. And so we're just like, we, we know we can do either- And are they- ... it's one of the variables ... are
[00:39:44] Hamish: they, have you parted with Carbon Lite on these or, or some kind of cassette style?
[00:39:48] Andy: We have not yet. So the, at the moment we've just got the designs we've got. We've had them pri- We've done all the work to get them to a point where they work.
[00:39:56] What is the next... Relaunching the bloody website's the [00:40:00] first thing. Um, it'd be nice to actually sell something. Um, but then what we're working towards is having a Carbon Lite version, and then we're also gonna do a straw prefab and a hempcrete prefab as well.
[00:40:14] Hamish: Yep. So, but we have- Who's doing the hempcrete prefab?
[00:40:16] Andy: Um, there's a mob called Ateto- Oh, yeah ... that are relatively- Yep ...
[00:40:20] Hamish: new. Oh, they're the ones that we should have contacted while we were up there- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... because we've been- They're, they're coming in June.
[00:40:25] Matt: No, they're in June. We talked. June. Okay, great. Yeah. No, we spoke to them.
[00:40:28] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They sound awesome, yeah.
[00:40:29] Haven't done anything with them yet- Yeah ... but they're looking at- The straw's interesting ... another house for us as well. Yeah, 'cause he's building a prototype at the moment, his own.
[00:40:34] Andy: They've built something already. I haven't actually seen it- Yeah, I think it's his own ... in person. Is it a panelized hemp?
[00:40:38] Matt: Yep.
[00:40:39] Yep. So not like block work or... Yeah, okay. No.
[00:40:41] Hamish: Uh, I think Marnie Horsing connected us.
[00:40:43] Matt: Are, are they, like, just stud with hemp batts? Is that what you mean?
[00:40:47] Hamish: No, no.
[00:40:47] Andy: Uh, s- hempcrete. It's like y- it's, um- Like a precast almost ... it's, it's, uh, kinda, sorta. It's not wildly different to the straw. Um, they've got a couple of different ways of doing it.
[00:40:57] Basically, they build a frame that's normally 140 [00:41:00] as a perimeter frame in, you know- Yeah ... their dimensions, which 5.4 by whatever height you need the wall to be, and then they're forming it up to give the additional depth you need beyond the 140, 'cause it's hemp you need more depth. Yeah. 140 is not enough.
[00:41:14] And so they form that up to then basically make the panel, and then you can take it to site, drop it in place. So this is, this is the- There's a bunch of complexity around where you want- whether you're rendering inside or outside or both sides or services or back or cladding, and so- It's, yeah ... it's, it's not-
[00:41:30] Matt: The other- It's quite clever
[00:41:31] the other, yeah, the other thing is what is challenging, too, especially where I build, I, I can't even get a truck in the street half the time.
[00:41:38] Andy: And that's why we haven't focused on having everything being able to be, whether it's CarbonLite- Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah ... or anyone else, because there's a bunch of sites that just don't work.
[00:41:44] Hamish: Yeah,
[00:41:44] Andy: but
[00:41:44] Hamish: all, you know, I was just about to say, there's areas that won't work. Yeah. Yeah. And there's areas that will. Yeah, and you're impacted by... So where I live, in Moranah, I'd probably work on multiple- Car drives, car ... 'cause I've got lots of space. Yeah.
[00:41:56] Matt: Yeah, see, we're in where I'm Yarraville, like, have fun.
[00:41:59] [00:42:00] Like, it- most of it, there's heritage to start with, so... And these are all new builds as well.
[00:42:04] Hamish: And then, sorry, just- Yes ... just the, um- Yeah, Passive House Design and Construct frame ... just the straw stuff- Yes ... 'cause I'm interested in this. Who, who's, who's, um, who's making those panels?
[00:42:12] Andy: Um, there's a couple at the moment, so there's Huff and Puff.
[00:42:14] Oh, yep. Um-
[00:42:15] Matt: Is that the nine? He's, like, really old, and he's still- Yep, yep ... but he- I had a great chat with him on the phone once. He's brilliant.
[00:42:20] Andy: Yep. Um, and also, um, Sam, uh, Viva Homes. Oh, yep. Or
[00:42:25] Matt: Viva Panel, I think that's who- That's who Dave went up and drove up and learnt from. And, and with these, so for example- And they're fundamentally
[00:42:29] Andy: the same system
[00:42:30] the
[00:42:30] Matt: straw is, like, prefab, prefilled. Like, the, uh, like, that's a traditional frame with just straw bales pr- potentially inside it, isn't it?
[00:42:37] Andy: No. As- It's not bales as such. Uh, it's compressed straw, but it's not actually in bale format anymore, I don't think. Yeah. But they build basically a coffin, effectively.
[00:42:45] Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:45] Hamish: Is there um, and I don't want to give away too much information, but is there much, um, price difference between the three systems that you're looking-
[00:42:53] Andy: We haven't gotten that far. Straw's pretty reasonably priced. Straw, straw, straw as a material should be, will be cheaper than the others, 'cause [00:43:00] it's basically close to free.
[00:43:02] But I reckon, I don't know, is the short answer. Yeah. It'd
[00:43:04] Hamish: be interesting to see the, the how you unpack it, and then also whether or not the builder then just starts, decides to stick build it.
[00:43:10] Andy: Yeah, so what we normally find, every, this has got nothing to do with Passive House Design and Construct, but in, in Varietech's experience, what we find is the make or break of every prefab is how much margin the builder chooses to put on the large cost item from said prefab firm.
[00:43:25] Yeah, yeah. So you get a 2, 250K bill from CarbonLite or whoever, and if you got full ball margin on that, then the job falls over. If you look at it and go, "Gee-" it's gonna take me four days- Yeah ... all the risk's been taken away from me pretty much by the architect and Carbon Lite, and yeah, I got to check it, but gee, this is as low risk as it gets- We, we, we- And I'm happy to make- We-
[00:43:47] 3% or whatever the new number may be, then
[00:43:50] Hamish: it works. 3% off.
[00:43:52] Matt: Yeah, no, I think, I think the res- but it comes back, where it comes back- I like extreme numbers- ... because they avoid arguments. Where, where, where, where it, where it comes back to you though a lot of time is the [00:44:00] labor cost. So like that, and we know, I think I wasn't there last year, a huge amount of project cost is labor.
[00:44:07] That's the big ticket item there. So whilst your margin, even if we- Where,
[00:44:11] Hamish: w- w- just a bit, a bit more context, where you were, you weren't at the conference last year when Andy was talking about that in his- But he,
[00:44:19] Matt: he actually reached out to me for information
[00:44:20] Hamish: on that. No, I understand that, but you didn't give any context around that comment just then.
[00:44:23] Sorry, yeah, sorry. So, because I wasn't there last year- Yeah. And we all know that labor's this... I'm like, "Where the fuck is that coming from, Matt?"
[00:44:29] Matt: So yeah, so I, um-
[00:44:31] Hamish: Matt wasn't at the conference last year. Okay, cool. Keep moving on. Andy, Andy did a presentation. I did. They had a whole bunch of- When don't you do a
[00:44:37] Matt: presentation at the Passive House Conference?
[00:44:39] Andy: Year before last. But I'm doing one this year.
[00:44:42] Matt: I know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Um, the, so what I- 'Cause if you take off hypothetically... Sorry, Matt. If, if you had a frame on a 550 hours, if you decrease that to 100, and then just hypothetically the margins at, we'll say easy number, 25%, yeah, you could take off, you, you've got to take- Marginal, [00:45:00] marginal markup.
[00:45:01] Markup. So we take the- Just clarifying. Yeah, I know. So you take your overhead component, that can't change. That's the only- Ah,
[00:45:08] Andy: ah, ah, ah.
[00:45:10] Matt: Why?
[00:45:10] Andy: You've saved eight weeks on a job. Where's my dollar saving? Just in the time on site. No, hang on, hang on, hang on. No, no, no. No, no.
[00:45:15] Hamish: It, 'cause you need to understand where- Yeah.
[00:45:17] So we're talk- okay, you've got markup. Yep. So overheads sit over here- Mm-hmm ... that exist outside of cogs. Yep. Right? Then you've got supervision, project management. Yeah, yeah. Yep. There's discounts there. Yeah, yeah. There's not discounts here.
[00:45:31] Andy: Hang on, but what are these based on? Oh, running cars, offices- Okay
[00:45:35] fuel. All right. Yeah. So I'm buying a house from you. Yeah. Right? And you, let's say it costs you a million dollars a year to- Yeah ... run your business. Yeah. That's an easy number, right? Yeah. How many houses do you build in a year?
[00:45:43] Matt: It's worked off a per dollar. Hang on.
[00:45:45] Hamish: No, no, no. Don't... I, I think this is actually unfair to try and pick this apart because we're not talking about real numbers.
[00:45:50] Like- Okay.
[00:45:50] Andy: My broad point is that you would have your co- your overheads, anything that isn't the building of the house-
[00:45:59] Hamish: Yep ...
[00:45:59] Andy: [00:46:00] right, is, they, they are solid numbers, but they are fundamentally spread across the number of projects you can do in a period of time.
[00:46:08] Hamish: Some, yes.
[00:46:09] Andy: All. Your costs are the same, right?
[00:46:13] It's gonna, let's say it costs you a million dollars a year. If you build six houses or eight houses, your million dollars of overheads, correct me if I'm wrong, are give or take the same. Sure. Yeah. And therefore, what I'm saying is that my house, if it was quicker, or the eight people who use you next year, if those eight people buy houses, they should pay the million bucks between them- If you build six houses in a year, then the six peoples pay the million.
[00:46:37] And so what I'm... M- my thing is that the costs to clients should decrease when your time on their job decreases
[00:46:45] Hamish: And, and your, and your architecture fees come down, and you make less money- We- ... by turning over more?
[00:46:51] Andy: We char- we, we base our fees on the time it takes us to do the job. So I don't, I don't- So ours is exactly- That's how we get our price, so- I'm not, I'm not,
[00:46:58] Hamish: I'm not disagreeing with you that there- Yeah
[00:46:59] there [00:47:00] should be costs off. Yes. I, I fundamentally agree with you. Supervision, 100%. Project management- Yep ... 100%. Contract admin, 100%. Markup. Mm. But, but, but I think it's... And I'd li- I will show you spreadsheets one day- Mm ... 'cause I think when- when you, when, when, when I show you how we work it out- Yeah ... I think you'd understand that I don't think that the, that the overall minimum markup that you need to do to, to cover your overheads should be touched in that scenario.
[00:47:24] I think the cog should be- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... 100%, definitely.
[00:47:28] Andy: I think to some degree it doesn't really matter, so long as there is a reflection in the overall price. Agreed. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. 100%.
[00:47:35] Matt: Yeah. But I think- We're, we're talking about the same thing- Mm, literally- ... because we're, we're very transparent the way that we price though
[00:47:40] I,
[00:47:40] Hamish: I just get a little bit sensitive, as you can probably see- I can ... when I have somebody else telling me how I should be charging for my projects.
[00:47:51] Andy: Yeah, that's fair enough.
[00:47:52] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:47:52] Andy: I once had a fairly robust debate, to put it mildly, with a guy, 'cause he just, he gave me a price. And I was like, he was... Well, you know, [00:48:00] all the documentation that we send out, and he pretty much just got back- A number
[00:48:03] a number. Yeah. And I was like... I asked a bunch of questions about a bunch of things. He's like, "It is what it is." So how do you... Okay, so, so- Well, I, I don't, I don't agree with that. But actually, but actually- I didn't either, but I knew the guy, and I respected him, and I was like, at the end of the day, you know what?
[00:48:17] He was a- he was right. It didn't matter whether it was all for the concrete, all for the windows, or all for something else. Yeah. It was like, the house costs this. But this is a good- Yes or no ... this is a
[00:48:24] Matt: really good point- Yeah ... because you kind of floated this once with me. If I just say, "Hey, this is gonna cost you 1.2," why do you need to know all my breakdowns?
[00:48:34] It's just as per plan. It's literally as per plan.
[00:48:36] Andy: Well, uh, well, we, we've also had a job many, many years ago where it turns out that the builder forgot to include the cost of the windows. That's their problem.
[00:48:43] Matt: And
[00:48:44] Andy: so... You, you know what? When someone leaves that, that kind of cost- No, no, that's everyone's- That's everyone's problem
[00:48:48] yeah, I, I, I know, I know, I know, I know ... and that's why we ask. Yeah. And, and we... Yeah.
[00:48:52] Hamish: So I, I think, I think there are certain... I love how, where we're going here, and I think it's a good conversation because I... We're... As we're doing [00:49:00] iterative costing- Mm ... so we do feasibility costing, which is just a range, right?
[00:49:03] Yeah. There's, there's... Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's not much information in there to unpack. Second round of costings, we're actually demonstrating much more information- Mm ... of, of- Yeah ... telling people where the costs are- Mm-hmm ... because at that point the documents aren't resolved. Mm-hmm. So we're going tile allowance, this is plastering, this is electrical, 'cause the drawings aren't resolved yet.
[00:49:24] Ironically, when we get to go to contract, there's actually less information from a costing point of view, and less just provisional sums and prime costs, because we've used all of this data here. Mm. Uh, and now we're actually quoting against- Our under ... documentation. We've allowed all of the things that are here, we're accepting all of the information or all the items that are in the documentation in the price here.
[00:49:46] Mm. Here's some provisional sums and prime costs. Here's the number.
[00:49:50] Matt: I think you're gonna see- Mm-hmm ... changing in pricing, the way we present pricing coming up. So,
[00:49:53] Hamish: so we'll actually give less in the final and more in the middle. I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're actually- In terms of the... I can, I know.
[00:49:59] The visibi- [00:50:00] visibility of costs- I now, I now understand ... the visibility of costs are more in the middle, 'cause we're actually saying, "Here's all the drivers," 'cause then it gives you good data. It's, it's
[00:50:07] Andy: w- it's like the PAS OS argument. It's the fact that you've got useful information at the right point in time- Correct
[00:50:12] to make a decent decision on. Correct. Yeah. If you tell me at the end, it's too bloody late. Yes. If you can tell me earlier- Yeah,
[00:50:18] Hamish: and that's what we- ... it helps ... and that, and that's why we're like- Yeah ... "Here's, here's all of these things." Yeah. "Here's the cladding, here's the, here's the this, here's the that." Yeah.
[00:50:23] Yeah. "This is how we've got to it." Great. Value manage if needed. Mm. Update documents if required. Yeah. Fix. Reprice- Yeah ... based off new documents. Yeah. Based off as per plan. And price should be kind of within cooey of where you've kind of landed after this value manage. And to some degree
[00:50:37] Andy: at the f- at the end part, you're back to the fact that none of it matters.
[00:50:40] The bottom number's the only one. Exactly. Yeah. And sure, we like to see it and you've got it, so you hand it over. Yeah. But it really doesn't matter by then. It's really easy for... Yeah,
[00:50:46] Matt: and I've just changed my... I've literally spent, like, so any estimation coming out now, I've, I've broken my estimation, and we used to have maybe 46 categories.
[00:50:54] I think I'm down to, like, just around 90. So what... Uh, no, but it's actually easier because if you want- You [00:51:00] broken, broken down or broken up? Broken, yeah. But what, but what it ma- what it allows, if you wanna know- No, literally broken down ... just metal roofing, there's literally metal roofing. It's not being... I'm not putting numbers against it that hide other things and stuff.
[00:51:09] Like, it just breaks it right down. So in that middle phase, what you're talking about, we can quickly go, "Geez, that's higher than usual." Not- Cost code
[00:51:17] Hamish: category-
[00:51:18] Matt: Yeah ... 430 seems
[00:51:20] Hamish: a bit high. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. And that's how we cost it out- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... in our estimation sheet. Yeah. So you
[00:51:23] Matt: actually can quickly see that, like, hey, that's...
[00:51:26] why is that being skewed? It's either s- is it materials and hardware? Is it subcontractor or is it labor? Which one of the three now is it?
[00:51:32] Andy: So if you ever were to go and do Living Building Challenge, you'll discover the MasterFormat system, which is the American specification system, which has numbers for everything, and they all use the same system.
[00:51:43] Well, I tell you what- Pricing to- ... we should
[00:51:44] Hamish: just do that. Yeah. Like, we should totally just do that. There's a whole
[00:51:47] Andy: bunch of things in life where you're like, "Why don't we just all
[00:51:50] Hamish: agree that this is good?" I tell you what, there's also some things in America that- You won't have a job ... there's also things in America where you're like- Why not?
[00:51:54] "Why are you doing that?" Like using Imperial measurements.
[00:51:57] Andy: Yeah. But man, imagine how clever you have to [00:52:00] be to do that shit in your head, and imagine what you could do if you applied that intelligence to something useful.
[00:52:04] Hamish: I worked in, I worked in Canada for a minute, and they... It was Imperial, and it actually didn't take that long.
[00:52:09] Are Canada Imperial? I thought they were Metric. Yeah, Imperial. Uh, they use kilometers. Oh, that's even worse. But they use Metric tapes. Uh, Imperial tapes. Oh, God. Imperial tapes. Oh,
[00:52:19] Matt: God. But even just reading an, an Imperial measurement tape is like The number that you gotta read is so much harder than me, like 2870.
[00:52:26] Andy: Yeah,
[00:52:27] Hamish: it's like- But you'd get, but you'd get used to it ... you get, you, you, you get used to it pretty, pretty quickly,
[00:52:32] Andy: yeah.
[00:52:32] Matt: Yeah. Indeed. Yeah. Is, is imperial- I love that we're digressing there ... is imperial, like, millimeters is a lot more accurate to something? Like, how would you- I- Isn't it, like, a little bit s- like, yeah.
[00:52:41] I don't know.
[00:52:42] Hamish: I, I, I find it
[00:52:43] Matt: easier to use millimeters. Yeah. I think we can all look- So where do, where do you see this? Because ultimately we have a massive issue with housing. Um-
[00:52:52] Andy: I don't think
[00:52:52] Matt: that
[00:52:53] Andy: the imperial system's the answer. Yeah. Sorry, is that where you were going? No. We've got the answer. So,
[00:52:58] Hamish: so that's the problem you're trying to solve.
[00:52:59] But design, but [00:53:00] design and construct- You're trying to solve the
[00:53:02] Matt: imperial issue- Okay, darn it. Yeah. I, I, I think, I think that, we've said this openly, I think, I think what's the biggest changer, and I can see it happening, is working... Like, collaboration's one thing, but working closer is going to, with that design and construct- Mm
[00:53:16] is what is gonna bridge a lot. I think, I think that. And, and it's also telling people what you can have.
[00:53:22] Andy: Our, our fundamental aim, so we, we spend a lot of time telling people that they can't afford to do what they wanna do. Um, a whole bunch of those people... Well, actually, there's a... So a couple of things happen.
[00:53:32] Some are like, "Gee, I'm not surprised." Yeah. Um- That's always easier ... and then they, then different things happen. Some of them are like, "Well, we actually have more money and we just didn't tell you." It's like, "Well, appreciate the honesty." Um, but we are where we are, let's go on. Um, a whole bunch of people go away, and then you hear months later they found someone else who told them what they wanted to hear, end up in the same hole, but 50 grand poorer 'cause they ha- shelled out a bunch of money and they still can't afford what they want, and that's sad and frustrating, um, when you realize- Do
[00:53:59] Matt: you [00:54:00] think there's gonna be some form of, like...
[00:54:01] C- so I'm gonna ask you, architects, you are meant to get, like, legally a price or something along the way?
[00:54:07] Andy: I don't know. We, we have a responsibility to give an opinion of probable cost, which is a complicated thing. So we, we have, we, we're on the hook for basically designing to budget. The most common complaint to the architects registration board is that our architects haven't designed to budget.
[00:54:22] Um, obviously in the last few years- It's hard. It's easy to get around that one ... it, it's pretty... I mean, it's... Look, it's relatively easy to dance your way around the problem and do the right thing. Um, it's also been incredibly hard to design to the budget in recent years- Oh ... as well, as you guys would well imagine.
[00:54:36] I think it's,
[00:54:37] Matt: I, I feel really, and I've said this multiple times, I... and yeah, we've, I've jokingly pooped on architects. The, the fact that you get a pen and gotta go, or not a pen now, it's like a button on your mouse. How do I actually start? Where do I start to give them what they've asked for, already knowing most likely that, that, what they've asked for is what they can't afford, but you also have to give them what they've asked for?
[00:54:56] No, you
[00:54:56] Andy: don't. You have to give them... You, you can give them what they ask [00:55:00] for, but if you do that and you know it's gonna be over budget, then you have to have either g- also given them the thing they can afford- Yeah, yeah, that's what I, I... Yeah ... but you w- you, you have to cut that off at the pass. There's no point designing something you c- that they can't afford.
[00:55:14] Matt: But as, as a, as Alissa says, why show them the Ferrari when they can only afford, afford the-
[00:55:18] Andy: Well, that's... I, I would suggest that that's not really the best way to manage your clients' expectations. No, yeah. So, I mean, everyone does it differently. That's their call. But the point is that we've, we get the people who can't afford initially what they think they want, and either they scale back their expectations, or they find more money, or they give up, or they get duped by somebody else.
[00:55:39] But we keep finding there's a lot of people who can almost afford stuff, like it's close. Yeah. And part of it is because the dollars that they have has been creeping up, and the cost of construction- Yeah ... has been creeping up faster. So that, that- Yeah ... that delta's increased. And so for us, having these pre-designed things where we can say, "You can't afford the [00:56:00] full-blown envirotech or experience and all the other stuff, because we know that it's gonna cost this, but you can afford this thing."
[00:56:05] Yeah, and you're gonna be site quicker. And it's gonna be certified, so all of the Passive House design and construct stuff is, is gonna get certified. That's
[00:56:11] Matt: cool.
[00:56:12] Andy: That's part of the QA thing. It's like, "Well, how do I know it's any better than something else?" And there's
[00:56:16] Matt: tweaks here and there. Like do- you've probably got a few metrics.
[00:56:18] Is it double glaze or triple glaze? Is it, do we insulate the cavity? Yep. You got... Yeah.
[00:56:22] Andy: Yep. And the biggest factor of all of this is site conditions-
[00:56:25] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:56:26] Andy: as well. Yeah. So trees, bloody trees. Yeah. So if we chop down the trees, things will be a lot easier. But- Get rid
[00:56:31] Hamish: of the neighbor's house.
[00:56:32] Andy: Yeah, but you gotta pay for the neighbor's house.
[00:56:34] Yeah. If you can afford the neighbor's house, you can afford- Yeah. We had a job that- ... the design ...
[00:56:37] Matt: got modeled, it was my second or third one, got modeled incorrectly. Um, they never updated a few things being, after being told to. Mm. Got to the end, and because of the trees and- Mm-hmm ... shading next door was failing, failing, failing.
[00:56:51] Two years of trying to find any efficiency. One morning the neighbors woke up and they, eh, they cut down the tree. All fixed, done. [00:57:00] That's both good and bad. See you later. Good and bad, yeah. All of a sudden passes. That just shows the sensitivity of Passive House. Yeah. But I, I, I, I, I think that this is the model.
[00:57:10] I think that somewhat- I
[00:57:12] Hamish: have a question.
[00:57:12] Matt: Yeah. Yep, please. Over here.
[00:57:14] Hamish: Hi, Hamish. Uh, you will want these to be certified. Yes. What happens if you have this scenario where you've got this block- Mm-hmm ... clients have said, "Yes, I- Yep ... I, I, I, uh, am happy with the budget"? Mm-hmm. And then for whatever reason- Mm-hmm
[00:57:32] there are factors that are out of your control that mean that it's not a Passive House classic building, but they're okay with that.
[00:57:40] Andy: Um, due to the fact that's the first things that we have ready to rock include a, a secondary dwelling, so 60 square meter granny flat thing, which is pretty tricky to get over the line at- Yeah
[00:57:54] best in times. Our, our, our thing is- ... they are Passive House certifiable. Um, and that [00:58:00] includes low energy. Yeah, good. And so I would expect a granny flat in country Victoria, like in like, I don't know-
[00:58:06] Matt: Daylesford or something.
[00:58:07] Andy: Ballarat ... yeah, uh, Ballarat, Trentham, any of those places where it can get pretty freaking cold- I would expect a l- bunch of those ones for a small building to still end up being low-energy, not Passive House classic.
[00:58:19] Hamish: Yep. Okay. But- Mm-hmm ... if you've got a block of land, uh- I get your point ... you know what I'm saying? Like- If you still don't
[00:58:27] Matt: get
[00:58:27] Andy: there- Do
[00:58:28] Matt: you just not tell them? And, and- And just be like, "This is..." No, but, like, you just say, like, it's... Like, you know how you have to do it in that house Okay. So, so
[00:58:33] Hamish: let, let me, let me close this out.
[00:58:34] Yep. Because you're still doing the modeling. Yep. You, you, you know, you know, um, intellectually where it should, should land if it's built right. If you go through all these- Yep ... uh, the reliable metrics- Mm-hmm ... QA system, et cetera, you know that it's gonna be performing at X. Yep. And you communicate to the client how you're gonna have to turn your AC on a little bit more- Yep
[00:58:52] in, you know, i- during the- Mm ... depths of winter and the height of summer, and they're okay with that because the price and the design and [00:59:00] everything ticks the boxes. Yep. Are you then gonna turn around and say, "Oh, sorry, it's not a Passive House, I'm not doing it for you"?
[00:59:06] Andy: Probably not. Mm. But I reckon knowing what I know, it'd be pretty...
[00:59:12] I'd be... We'd find a way to get it over the line, and we would see what that actually entails. From a cost point of view. And, and- Yep. Yep ... the cost of, of it. Yep. Yeah. And would go from there. But yeah, there's a possibility that we're just... We're... Sorry. The... I feel it would be unlikely we'd say no in the end. I think what we would end up doing is doing all the things we normally do, mandate, would still man- would still ensure, 'cause it's still a separate building contract, obviously.
[00:59:39] And so we'd still make sure they get the point six- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and all the other yes. I mean, all, all, all of those things can exist too. All of those things.
[00:59:43] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really great, but I guess it's, um... And I'm just sort of pressure testing things, right? Yeah. And, and, and I think it's great.
[00:59:49] You go with your gut, please. And I, and I like, I like the fact that you, it took you so long to answer that, 'cause you're like, "I just wanna get it certified because that's what I believe in." I think that's awesome. And if we're going for the... If we're going [01:00:00] for gold all the time, and sometimes we- Yeah
[01:00:03] don't quite get there, then that's okay. Yep. But, but, you know, you've just sort of given me confidence that you'll sort of turn over all the stones to try and make that work. We, we
[01:00:11] Andy: did a... Because we've did a bunch of work with the Rubik House thing, like we, we danced around a lot between the classic and the low energy and what difference it would make for different things, windows being a big part of it.
[01:00:20] You've done
[01:00:20] Matt: R&D kind of like
[01:00:21] Hamish: with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my understanding of Rubik's is that they're not trying to get a certified building. Not necessarily. Yeah. But it can be. It, it might be. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it
[01:00:30] Andy: came down to the... Because most of them were Melbourne area, like a lot of it was borderline on the windows between double and triple glazing.
[01:00:36] Yeah. And so- The Logic House?
[01:00:38] Matt: Is that what you're going with? Uh, it didn't matter.
[01:00:40] Andy: Like, ultimately Logic House, the specs on those windows are not wildly different to the specs on the UPVC- Yeah ... or the Chine- like the Chinese version of the Logic. Like all of them are- Yeah ... in the realms of the same. Yeah.
[01:00:51] And so the supply from that perspective doesn't make any odds.
[01:00:55] Matt: Um, the question... Oh, I was gonna- So I'm just gonna write this 'cause this is a bit off [01:01:00] our conversation flatter. When I say don't tell the client, what I mean is like- I know, I know what you've just written down. You've got where, what Chinese
[01:01:04] Hamish: windows are you talking about?
[01:01:05] Matt: No, no. No, no. I love logic houses and big- The big factory
[01:01:09] Andy: that was next to where we went for the conference in China in 2019.
[01:01:12] Matt: So what I, what I say is when we don't tell the client, is like why... Sometimes I'm like, we don't tell them about the engineering comps. Do we just not tell them, pass it out at the end, are they certified?
[01:01:23] Hamish: No, 'cause I think there's a selling point.
[01:01:24] Matt: No, I know, I know, I know there is, but generally- Engineering's not a selling point.
[01:01:26] Andy: It's how you talk about it, right? I mean, yeah, so you don't tell them. Like, they assume- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... your building won't fall down. No one presumably has ever asked you- Yeah ... to see the engineering drawings specifically.
[01:01:34] They're just like, "I assume that you'll build it and it doesn't fall down."
[01:01:37] Hamish: Yeah.
[01:01:37] Andy: So we're the same with the passive house stuff. It's like you assume it'll work. You came to us, we say that these buildings work, this is how we make sure it works, here's your bit of paper at the end. Yeah, you're not
[01:01:45] Matt: going through, "Hey, this window G value on that is that, and then that."
[01:01:48] No. And, and, and that's what I mean. Like, I think sometimes we talk too much about it. Yes. Yeah.
[01:01:52] Andy: Most people who end up not getting their jobs across the line appear to spend too much time talking about the complexity of what they do. It's like, the, most people don't [01:02:00] care. They j- Like, does it work? Yeah. Yes.
[01:02:02] Can I get from my car to my house? Does the kitchen work? Yeah. Is there a bathroom? Yeah. Great. Yep.
[01:02:07] Matt: Um, we've gotta wrap this up. I... We were gonna talk about air cons in homes, and we might leave that for a whole different conversation.
[01:02:13] Andy: Okay.
[01:02:14] Matt: Um, before I do our mindful moment, Hame, what would older Andy tell younger And- uh, what, yeah, what would older Andy tell younger Andy?
[01:02:25] Andy: I don't know.
[01:02:26] Matt: Don't do it?
[01:02:27] Andy: No. I've liked, I like what I do. It's good. What would I do different? I don't know. I really don't know. I mean, I'd like to know all... I'd like to have known 10 years ago all the things I know today, but in 10 years' time I'd say the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Dick used to... Whenever I used to ask Dick about, like, things that could be better or, you know, what else can I do, should I do, he would always answer in the same slightly irritating way of ba- basically, it's like you'll get there with time.
[01:02:54] And it's true, 'cause you do, and there's no specific thing, it's just you learn by doing. Maybe that's our [01:03:00] mindful moment.
[01:03:01] Hamish: Yeah. Don't rush.
[01:03:04] Andy: Oh, it doesn't mean you don't rush, just means you'll ne- There's a pro- there's a process ... but, but you'll never get there.
[01:03:08] Hamish: Yeah, well, yeah, don't, don't rush to get somewhere that you're never gonna get.
[01:03:12] Matt: It, it, it's like we talk about- Yeah ... the apprenticeship program- Yeah ... where they wanna reduce it from four to three and fast-tracking it. You can't fru- you can't fast-track that, what you d- like, the information.
[01:03:22] Andy: Some things you can, and so like... I don't know, we, we're getting a new phone system as part of our office, and the people spent 75 minutes explaining to everybody how to use a new phone system, and I was like, "I can't listen to this, 'cause I can't believe it takes more than three minutes.
[01:03:33] It's not that hard." What do you mean? Don't you just pick up the phone? It's not a... It's a internet-based thing. Ah. Anyway, um, the point is that
[01:03:40] Hamish: certain things- So is, is everyone just gonna end up texting each other- ... or, like, jumping on Teams and being like, "Hey, I'm just gonna call you on Teams"?
[01:03:46] Andy: Uh, it's not...
[01:03:47] The thing is, it's not that hard, it's just a phone system, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the point- Yeah, yeah ... certain things can be sped up, and other things you just, you only get from doing and seeing And you could equally spend three weeks looking and [01:04:00] seeing and still learn nothing if you don't look and see the right things.
[01:04:02] So-
[01:04:03] Hamish: So I feel like you and me and Matt probably share the same kind of personality in a way. Do you ever stop to kind of look at what you've achieved and think, "Fuck me, look how far I've-" Can you imagine if the three of us had a
[01:04:13] Matt: business?
[01:04:16] Andy: Could be
[01:04:16] Hamish: fucked. Have I... You know, I... You know what? I'm, I'm doing some really cool shit.
[01:04:19] I'm just gonna sit in this moment for a second and enjoy it.
[01:04:23] Andy: Occasionally. I'm not... I don't do a particularly good job of that. Um-
[01:04:27] Hamish: Yeah, I'm not saying I'm any good at it either What are you most proud of?
[01:04:34] Andy: Let's come back to that in a few moments. I'll, I'll think whilst also talking. Um, I think the, um, the reflection thing I find hard. I don't make the time to do it very much.
[01:04:45] Hamish: Yeah.
[01:04:46] Andy: Um, when I do, I do sit down and reflect on the stuff we've pulled off and go, "Gee, we've, we've, you know, we've done pretty good." I have a tendency to also then think of all the things that didn't pan out as well, could have been better, and also- It's [01:05:00] just, it's human.
[01:05:00] That's- ... what, just, but what's next?
[01:05:02] Matt: Yeah.
[01:05:02] Andy: So I'm a big West Win- West Wing fan, and, um, one of the lines in there that comes up all the time is the president's character just going like, "What's next?" It's like, it's my way of saying I wanna move on, and I feel that I do that a bit too much, and especially for the people who work for us because, you know, you have this big thing and, like, last year we had all those projects certified.
[01:05:21] We had, like, seven plaques in a row or whatever it was, and you're like, "That's pretty cool, right?" That's-
[01:05:25] Hamish: Now get back to work. What's next? And I'm
[01:05:27] Andy: just like, "I'm done." Like, I knew they were coming. We've got a photo. Yeah, well, what's next?
[01:05:31] Matt: Yeah. On board, what's... Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I say, like, your half-and-half house that you guys did, like, to me that's cool 'cause, like, no one's done that.
[01:05:38] Andy: Yeah. Yeah. We've got a flame zone one that'll be finished fairly soon. Oh, I've always loved the look. Yeah. And that'll be, from what I can work out, that'll be the first proper certified passive house that's also flame zone. I think. Oh, I could be wrong on that now, actually.
[01:05:49] Hamish: What's it constructed out of?
[01:05:51] Andy: Um, timber frame- Yep
[01:05:53] but then wrapped in fire... Oh, not fire check, but a version of fire check. Yeah, okay. And then clad with a [01:06:00] combination of metal and fiber cement sheet. What
[01:06:02] Hamish: would be rad if it was, like, a, um, hempcrete house with, like, you know, 40 centimeter thick render on it in flame zone. That'd be pretty cool. That'd be pretty cool too.
[01:06:11] Next one, maybe. What are you proud of? A flame zone passive house, maybe?
[01:06:17] Andy: Yeah. I think probably... I haven't... I should have prepared for this, hey? No,
[01:06:23] Matt: it's... It did come to me then. I can't prepare for the questions we'll ask. Yeah.
[01:06:27] Andy: Um, it's a good question. You should prepare your next guest with this type of question.
[01:06:30] No, this is, this is what- It's a good, it's a really good question ... I
[01:06:32] Hamish: do, what I... I do what I... Can I, can I tell you what you, I think you should be proud of? No.
[01:06:35] Andy: All
[01:06:36] Hamish: the things that you do. Oh, thanks. But also, you know, I look at, um... Now I know a bit more about Dick, and I know, obviously know a lot about Talina as well, and the fact that how, like, how there's been this, and I don't know if it's by design or whatever, but this really beautiful su- succession plan- Mm
[01:06:51] that's kinda come down. Yeah and how well it's worked. Mm-hmm. And it's not, it's, it's almost as if it's getting better with age. It's like a fine wine. [01:07:00] Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. And, and, and do you see this, like, continuing on, like, as you and Talina kind of get older and- Mm-hmm ... decide that you don't wanna be designing anymore?
[01:07:09] Is there other people kind of waiting in the wings to continue on their legacy?
[01:07:13] Andy: So, uh, as you started talking about that, it made me think of, so not necessarily the thing I'm most proud of that we've done, or a little bit, but, like, it's, Dick started Envirotech to make a difference. And so when I went back to work for him, what was it, like, 11, 12 years ago now, like, it was partly of...
[01:07:30] It was his, his, like, you know, "This will become yours." Like, "This is... You, you are my retirement plan," I th- from memory is what he said. And so that part was always gonna be the case. And so when Talina got involved, a lot of it was about the kind of custodianship of this thing, and Dick was always very, um, eloquent around the fact that unlike nearly every other person who designs a building, when they design- when they created a company name, they did not just use their own name.
[01:07:59] Matt: Mm-hmm. [01:08:00] You
[01:08:00] Andy: go and th- like, there's a couple that haven't, but most of the people that you know who design stuff, their company has their name on
[01:08:05] Hamish: it. Like Talina Edwards Architecture. Exactly. Don't worry,
[01:08:08] Andy: I've pointed that out multiple times. Anyway, but she's seen the ways and moved on. Well, that's lovely, right?
[01:08:12] See, some people grow, some people don't.
[01:08:14] Hamish: Yeah, like Sanctum Homes and Callyn Construction. I mean, yeah.
[01:08:17] Matt: I really thought long and hard about what to call my business name. Yeah.
[01:08:20] Andy: And Talina will tell you she s- she did that because- That was a sarcastic ... she started... Yeah, I know, but she start... Like, somebody asked her to do a job, she needed a company name, and she's like, "Well, Talina Edwards."
[01:08:30] Like, this, it's a lot how these things happen. Yeah. But the point is, it was meant to be this thing that makes a difference and continues to do so. And
[01:08:36] Hamish: it's its own thing.
[01:08:37] Andy: And we are... And so Talina and I are the current custodians of this thing, and we will at some point hand that over to whomever- Yeah
[01:08:44] those next people are. And at the moment, no, we don't know exactly who that is. There's a bunch of people who work for us. Some of them may want to, some of them would be good for it, others maybe lesser. Like, not everyone's suited- It could be the kids ... to the position. The, the
[01:08:56] Matt: kids might wanna do it. My
[01:08:59] Andy: kid's pretty [01:09:00] creative.
[01:09:00] She's only eight, so I think she's got a while to go. You and your retirement plan.
[01:09:03] Hamish: That's a long succe- succession plan. Yeah, I was gonna
[01:09:05] Andy: say, I'll be working a lot longer. But anyway, I don't really... I don't know. I've been reflecting on what I do when I retire, and I don't have an answer to that anymore. I feel
[01:09:13] Matt: like you're gonna always do something- Yes
[01:09:15] with building. I don't see you... I see you being 90 on your deathbed still, like, "We could improve here," or something. Quite possibly. Um, Andy, how do people get onto Envirotech to Passive House Design and Construct if they wanna get onto you guys? And,
[01:09:27] Hamish: and when's the website live so we can look at these designs?
[01:09:30] Andy: Um, that's a harder question to answer. I reckon the website should be live, I'm gonna say sometime at the start of May probably. Okay. So we're, we're close, but- Yeah ... I'm also mindful how long these things take. Mm-hmm. Um, you can find us through our various websites, so envirotech.com.au, passivehousedc.com.au, spelt the German way And LinkedIn, Instagram, all those
[01:09:53] Matt: things Awesome.
[01:09:54] Thank you for giving your time today, but also over the years to helping people like Hamish and [01:10:00] I further our knowledge. Um, it's probably indirectly given us confidence to start something like this, 'cause you're being very generous with your time, speaking at conferences and stuff, and sharing your information, and ultimately probably leads to something of where we are today.
[01:10:13] Hamish: Well, I'd also like to just have a special thanks to say that whenever you and Tulina get up on stage at the Passive House conference, I wake up. So thank you.
[01:10:21] Andy: That's... That's good, good way to end that one. Thank you both very much as
[01:10:28] well.