What tradies won’t say publicly

Written By Matthew Carland

“I’m not one of your dumb tradie mates.”

Joel from Heidi Build wasn’t trying to be edgy when he repeated that. He was telling us about the moment his own brother said it to him, years ago, and how it made him feel smaller than he was. The stereotype that if you’re a tradie, you’re automatically less polished, less capable, less smart is quite aggravating and just not true.

This chat started the way a lot of good ones do. Four blokes at a table, no plan, no script, three notepads for absolutely no reason, and a promise that it would probably go sideways. It did. In the best way. One minute we were talking about tattoos, hats, controversial shirts and “sore knuckles”. The next, we were deep in identity, bullying, and what it actually takes to lead a team when you’re not on site every day.

Approachability was the thread that kept popping up. Hamish put it perfectly. Andrew and Joel come across as normal guys with opinions, and that’s why people trust them. Joel even admitted he tried the curated route first. Spending money, polishing the grid, trying to grow his Instagram the “right” way, and it went nowhere. Then he posted a proper rant about timber quality, because he was fed up, and that was the moment it all took off. 

From there, the conversation widened. Joel talked about being Sri Lankan and the expectation that you go to uni, full stop. Trades were never presented as a real option, and the stigma is still there, just quieter now. Matt said what a lot of people think but don’t say out loud. The biggest misconception is that tradies are dumb. Joel’s response wasn’t defensive so much as clear. Swearing doesn’t make you stupid. Being less polished doesn’t make you less than. And having a degree doesn’t automatically make you intelligent either.

Hamish and Joel started talking about being overweight kids, getting bullied, and how that stuff follows you into adulthood even when your life looks “sorted” on the outside. Hamish spoke about how he will cope if his own kid is bullied at school and how it drags all the old memories back up. Joel’s answer was simple and surprisingly solid. He listens, asks questions, and helps his kid feel heard, because that’s what he didn’t get growing up. It was one of those moments where you remember these are builders, sure, but they’re also dads trying to do better than what they were handed.

Even the business chat had that same theme. Matt shared a “wellness survey” he uses with his team to track morale, respect, cleanliness, safety, and whether people feel heard. Joel and Hamish hated it on principle at first because it felt too formal and too corporate for most trade brains. Matt’s point was that as your team grows, you need checkpoints and you need a way to de-risk problems before they blow up. Joel’s point was just as true. Culture and tone come from the top, and the best version is the one that actually fits your people. Scalable or not, you still have to be real with your team, especially when things are cooked.

Somehow, all of that sat alongside DeWalt banter, Makita loyalty, a drill that ate through ironbark “like butter”, and Joel pitching a full fake abduction in a DeWalt van as a brand video concept. It was ridiculous, and it also made the point. The reason their content works is because it isn’t contrived. They don’t try to act like influencers. They just show up as themselves, tell the truth about what they rate and what they don’t, and they don’t monetise too early because relationships and reputation matter more long-term.

This is what that quote at the top of the article really points to. It’s not about being defensive. It’s about being seen properly. Trades aren’t a backup plan. They’re not a personality type. They’re not a lack of intelligence dressed up in hi-vis. They’re people with skill, opinions, pressure, pride, and a whole lot going on behind the tradie curtain.

And if you’ve ever felt underestimated because you didn’t take the “expected” path, you probably heard yourself in it too.

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  • [00:00:00] Matt: We've got Joel from Heidi Build, we've got Hoppo from Hoppo Construction in, we've got Hamish from Hamish From that. Uh, we- and there's no plan. There's like, there's no, but three of us have notepads. I don't know why because there's no script for this one. All I've, all I've, all I've written down here- All up the road, 

    [00:00:15] Andrew: yeah

    [00:00:16] Matt: is Joel and Hoppo. Yeah. So that's about it. There's the plan. No, it's 

    [00:00:18] Andrew: aesthetics. It's- So what, what have we most influenced you, like singly, what have we most inf- what, what would you put us down to? Like, all right, I think of Hoppo or I think of Joel, I think of what? Confidence. 

    [00:00:31] Hamish: I think- Influenced your confidence

    [00:00:32] now this is a really good, this is a really good question because I think it's good feedback for you guys, too. When I watch your stuff, I find it really, um, uh, I, like, uh... What am, what am I trying to say? It's approachable because you're just normal guys. Yeah. Like, there's no fuss, there's no- 

    [00:00:50] Matt: You have an opinion

    [00:00:51] Hamish: like- 

    [00:00:52] Joel: Mm. 

    [00:00:52] Hamish: B- both, both of you don't try to be anything other than who you are. 

    [00:00:56] Andrew: It's too hard. 

    [00:00:57] Hamish: And I think, uh- Why would you? ... you know, you're there with your [00:01:00] tats and your hats and your controversial T-shirts and shit. You're there just talking about whatever the fuck you 

    [00:01:08] Joel: want You're there with the muscle

    [00:01:08] with no filter. I, 

    [00:01:10] Hamish: I thought he would 

    [00:01:10] Joel: sore knuckles. 

    [00:01:11] Hamish: And it's just, and it's just, I, I think it's just awesome. And, and, and I think the fact that you guys have like skyrocketed over the past few years, 'cause I've known you for a long time- Mm ... and- 

    [00:01:19] Matt: You've just popped out of like, you've grown real fast, though, haven't you?

    [00:01:22] Joel: Oh, yeah. So, yeah. I think, I think it's sort of... I tried so hard to grow my Instagram when I was doing what you guys are doing. 

    [00:01:29] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:01:29] Joel: Um, doing like architectural builds and wh- Yeah ... I tried so fucking hard. Yeah. I spent money, I curated images, and it fucking went nowhere. And when I said, "Fuck this, I'm so over this" - 

    [00:01:40] Matt: Mm

    [00:01:40] Joel: and then I think the one, I actually posted a massive rant about timber quality. Yes. Yeah. That was, 

    [00:01:45] Hamish: that was the mold 

    [00:01:45] Joel: that took off. That is how I first 

    [00:01:46] Matt: come across you. 

    [00:01:47] Hamish: The mold. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I come... It was during COVID, wasn't it? 

    [00:01:50] Matt: And then I was like, "Oh" It 

    [00:01:50] Joel: was, it was a bit after it, 

    [00:01:52] Matt: was a bit of My original thought was like, "He's got the same last name as Andre."

    [00:01:54] That was literally it. I didn't even put two and two together that you were brothers Yeah, right. Well, 

    [00:01:58] Hamish: you felt they looked the same. 

    [00:01:59] Matt: I know, but I didn't, [00:02:00] I didn't- Do you reckon? But I wasn't, but I wasn't watching it- Oh, yeah ... checking Joel out to see what he looked like. I was more watching the content.

    [00:02:04] Hamish: Andre 

    [00:02:04] Matt: has- It's okay 

    [00:02:05] Hamish: if you were Andre, Andre, Andre has more, Andre has more gray in his beard. 

    [00:02:09] Joel: He does. 

    [00:02:10] Hamish: A lot more gray in his beard. 

    [00:02:10] Joel: Yeah. He should, he's fucking 13 years older than me. 

    [00:02:13] Hamish: Is he really? 

    [00:02:13] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't- I'm the youngest by 13 years. Andre's number four. Brendan, who's the oldest, is also at Binc.

    [00:02:20] He's, he's the first. Yeah, okay. And then there's another two in between them, so there's five boys. Is 

    [00:02:25] Hamish: that the singer? 

    [00:02:26] Joel: The singer's number two. 

    [00:02:27] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:02:27] Joel: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:02:29] Hamish: I wanna meet the singer. He sounds hilarious. So... Oh, 

    [00:02:30] Joel: man, you, you do wanna meet him. 

    [00:02:32] Hamish: I do wanna meet him. 

    [00:02:32] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:02:33] Matt: See, I think the one good thing about the content you produce, yeah, it's relatable, you, but you're, you're opinionated.

    [00:02:38] But it's also, I think it, it gi- when I say, I said confidence earlier, it gives you confidence to create something yourself. It's not like up on your high horse, "I'm this." Like, you're a- 

    [00:02:47] Andrew: Yeah ... you're 

    [00:02:47] Matt: approachable. Yeah. 

    [00:02:48] Andrew: These are normal dudes. Yeah. There's no reason why we couldn't do the same. We fuck 

    [00:02:51] Matt: up every day.

    [00:02:51] Hamish: There's also- Mm ... an element of almost non-bias, but bias as well, but you also take the piss out of yourselves. Like, you know, you guys [00:03:00] are all in DeWalt now, 'cause that's Sami Ak-, you got Sami Akens on- Yeah ... in your area. Are you guys sponsored 

    [00:03:04] Matt: by DeWalt? 

    [00:03:05] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:03:06] Matt: Can you tell? Yeah. Not today. I mean, 

    [00:03:09] Hamish: not today.

    [00:03:09] I'm, I'm layered. Oh. I'm layered. You got the DeWalt undies on. But it's not, it's not contrived. It doesn't feel forced. It's just, like, you using the tools. Like, you could get someone who is sponsored by something, and it's all about, "And now we're using the DeWalt. Uh, uh, uh." But it's a very natural way of, like, selling it, which I think works really well.

    [00:03:25] Yeah. And great for, great for DeWalt. Well, 

    [00:03:28] Andrew: they- Oh, man ... coming across as well was not pushed whatsoever. It was like, "Hey, we know you guys are stubborn." Like, and I've been ingrained in Makita for 20 years. 

    [00:03:36] Hamish: Yeah, 'cause you, you have always had Makita. 

    [00:03:38] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:03:38] Joel: Staunch Makita. 

    [00:03:39] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Always. And, and they just said, like, "Hey, we know you're a stubborn bastard.

    [00:03:43] We're not gonna try and push it, because we know there'll be pushback." 

    [00:03:45] Hamish: Yeah. "

    [00:03:46] Andrew: Here's a couple tools" You've seen Joel using the stuff. He vouched for it. Like, what, just let us know what you think. They're yours, no obligations. 

    [00:03:55] Hamish: And- Yeah, I just want to go on the record saying I am not sponsored at all by DeWalt, but [00:04:00] Joel- Mm

    [00:04:00] was very gr- uh, gracious in giving me a matter drill. You probably still haven't even opened yours. It's the only tool I have. Yeah. 

    [00:04:05] Matt: Have you used it? No. My dream hammer. I, I was like- I was 

    [00:04:10] Hamish: like, "

    [00:04:10] Matt: How does this thing work?" Yeah. 

    [00:04:11] Hamish: I was building this alfresco at my joint, uh, red ironbark. It's, like, super thick, super heavy, dense timber, and I'm like, my fucking Makita drill, I burnt it out, and I'm like, "I've got that fucking drill that Joel gave me."

    [00:04:24] I went and got it. Holy shit. Yeah. 

    [00:04:27] Joel: Yeah. It eats, mate. 

    [00:04:28] Hamish: Wow. Like, just butter, straight through. I'm like- Yeah ... "Okay, well, now I know." He's 

    [00:04:33] Joel: getting my drill bit 

    [00:04:33] Andrew: too. I, I tried to be in denial when I started using it. 'Cause I had my full Makita max track set up. You open it up, and there's just 

    [00:04:39] Joel: two yellow- Oh, 

    [00:04:39] Andrew: you sat on, you sat on yours for a bit.

    [00:04:41] I remember you telling me ... I sat on it for a while. I used this saw for ages because everyone raved about the 54-volt saw, and I thought if I use that, I know I'm converted, and I'm not ready to be proven wrong yet. Yeah. And I would open up my Makita stuff and pick out the two DeWalt drills every day first, and I was like 

    [00:04:55] Hamish: Well, I tell you what, if there's anyone from DeWalt listening, Sanctum Homes is happy [00:05:00] to convert to DeWalt if you come to the party.

    [00:05:02] Joel: I w- oh, mate, that is 

    [00:05:04] Andrew: That would 

    [00:05:04] Joel: be 

    [00:05:04] Andrew: the bomb. 

    [00:05:04] Joel: Now that you said that, 

    [00:05:05] Hamish: that's gonna happen. I will paint, I will paint, I will paint Sanctum Homes yellow and 

    [00:05:12] Andrew: black Change the logo. And get rid of everything. That's, you know what? I'll change the logo. Yeah. I'll change the logo. With, with them, they, they want to be the best.

    [00:05:18] Yeah. They wanna do what they can, and they don't wanna try and... They come to us for who we are. They don't, "Come on board. All right, this is what we want you to be. We love what you're doing. We approached you because we like the way you're doing it." And they're often like, "We have some pretty outrageous ideas," as you can imagine.

    [00:05:32] No. No. We sort of like 

    [00:05:36] Hamish: dwell on like- There's some good shit, there's some good shit coming up. Actually, can, can we- Yeah ... can, can we talk a little about some of the, like what is, what's the craziest ideas? Without giving too much away, like- 

    [00:05:42] Joel: Oh One that, one that didn't quite get approved was when they came on board, I was like, "All right, I've got this fucking idea," right?

    [00:05:48] I'm like, "What we'll do is," I'm like, "I need a DeWalt van." Oh, yes. This is good. Right? I'm like, "What I'm gonna do is," I'm like, "I'm gonna, like, Hopper's gonna be walking down the street, and I'm gonna run out and grab him, throw him in the van." 

    [00:05:58] Andrew: Like full abduction, like. 

    [00:05:59] Joel: [00:06:00] Yeah. And I'm like, "And then I'll do it to Sammy as well, and then they'll just walk out all fully kitted up."

    [00:06:03] Yeah, we get dragged in there. That's a brilliant idea. And they're like- And then we walk out and- ... "That's a great idea." They're like, "But don't think we can do it." Yeah. Oh. 

    [00:06:09] Hamish: Why? 

    [00:06:10] Joel: Oh, look, they're a fucking worldwide organization. Um, I think- If it was in America, they probably They're actually pretty, they're pretty- That'd be like, like, boring.

    [00:06:17] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:06:18] Joel: They're pretty good with us. Like, they allow us to get away... Oh, should've put my fucking phone on silent. Oh, 

    [00:06:23] Hamish: Mr. Meteor over there. Yeah. 

    [00:06:25] Joel: The Jackie Chan gang. Oh, that's just it there. Yeah. Just on to the... 3AW, sorry, guys. Um, yeah, so they, they do let us get away with quite a lot. But even when I started with them, I wasn't, I wasn't, um, interested really in DeWalt, 'cause I was pretty staunch Milwaukee.

    [00:06:43] Hamish: Oh, 

    [00:06:43] Joel: right. And yeah. But, uh, a mate of mine worked, worked at Stanley Black & Decker, owns DeWalt, and he's like, "Look, just, just come in." I said, "All right." I tried it out and I was like, "Fuck, actually, that's really, really impressive." And they're like, "Here you go. Just take it. No obligation." I was like, "All right."

    [00:06:58] And I didn't want to like it, [00:07:00] you know- Mm ... 'cause I was so, I was, I was always sending DeWalt jokes to, like, guy mates that had DeWalt. 'Cause it re- 

    [00:07:05] Andrew: that's just what we do, it's hilarious. Yeah. 

    [00:07:06] Joel: Yeah. And, um, I just, I just ended up going, "Fuck, these are really good." And then it just became really obvious that they were serious about taking that spot back, like being the dominant player.

    [00:07:18] 'Cause, 'cause if 

    [00:07:18] Hamish: I think about it, and maybe it's just 'cause you guys just- fucking swamp my feed all the time. Um, that I'm just seeing Dewalt everywhere. I don't see anyone rocking Makita. So Makita are- Makita are really 

    [00:07:29] Matt: bad with their marketing 

    [00:07:30] Hamish: Maki- who, who, who are the Makita influencers? 

    [00:07:33] Matt: They don't, um- 

    [00:07:33] Hamish: I'm an equally Makita if you 

    [00:07:35] Matt: want.

    [00:07:35] Oh, you... 

    [00:07:35] Hamish: Mate, you're gonna, you're really triggering Hoppo now. 

    [00:07:37] Matt: But I'm gonna say right now is they actually don't. 

    [00:07:39] Andrew: No, they, they, they're trying to now because they... And you know, my, my slogan is, "You snooze, you fucking snooze you lose." And that's what's happened. Um- Oh, Makita 

    [00:07:48] Hamish: jumped on. 

    [00:07:49] Matt: We're gonna be, we're 

    [00:07:50] Andrew: gonna be 

    [00:07:52] Hamish: dicked out of Makita.

    [00:07:52] Yeah, I was gonna say. Because there's a line down the middle of the table here. We can take the Makita. 

    [00:07:55] Andrew: They've tried to push it, but they don't see the value in creators. They, and apparently Cole comes [00:08:00] back from Japan, but they don't see the value in it. We've got this name from 40 years ago with some like, well, and Dewalt are like, "Fucking all right, here we go."

    [00:08:08] Hamish: Sweet, let's send it. 

    [00:08:09] Andrew: We value. Yeah. And that's the thing with Dewalt is like, we don't get paid. A lot of people think we get paid. We don't get paid. 

    [00:08:14] Hamish: Yeah, but you know what? You get 

    [00:08:16] Andrew: fun. You've probably got 30 or $40,000 worth of tools. Yeah, but, but also we already had 30 or $40,000 worth of tools that works fine.

    [00:08:20] That's true. So people, people say to me- That's a really good point. You already have it ... they, they go, "Oh, well they gave you all this tools." I was like, "Yeah, it's, it's almost a- at an inconvenience now." Like, we've got- Oh, you poor things ... so much. I know, right? I didn't fucking 

    [00:08:30] Joel: say that. 

    [00:08:32] Andrew: No, we, we... Like Joe's like, "Where's the BMW?"

    [00:08:34] I'm, I'm 

    [00:08:35] Joel: not inconvenienced by this at all. What's the point of it then? What, what do you get out of it? 

    [00:08:39] Andrew: Experience 

    [00:08:40] Joel: It's, you know what? It's, it's the tools, but then it's all the other stuff that goes with it Opportunities, 

    [00:08:45] Andrew: networking There's 

    [00:08:46] Joel: like... They're actually, like, they're this really big company, but- 

    [00:08:49] Andrew: Doesn't 

    [00:08:49] Joel: feel like it

    [00:08:50] the people that you talk to are just normal dudes. Yeah. Normal chicks. Normal people that are, like, so appreciative of you. Like, when you... I walk into Dewalt- We- Oh, we just- ... [00:09:00] and it's like you're a celebrity, 'cause they all obviously follow us 'cause we're Dewalt influencers Yeah ... and they're like, "Oh, Joel, I saw your thing," or, "How'd you build this go kart thing?"

    [00:09:06] You feel so valued. Yeah. So valued. But they're, but they're always, they're always- Brilliant ... amped at work. 

    [00:09:11] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. But do you think that's because they- What- ... work in a commercial environment, so they're feeling normal actually hanging out with normal people, so it's actually the flip side? 

    [00:09:18] Joel: No, I reckon, like, they do, like, this tra- No, they're so passionate about 

    [00:09:20] Andrew: what they do, yeah

    [00:09:20] yeah, 

    [00:09:21] Joel: and they do these forums for their own staff. So they have, like, these big activations where they'll have all their tools all set up in, like, marquees, and then they'll actually educate all the different teams on the different tools. 

    [00:09:32] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:09:33] Joel: So- So we... I did one, um, it was, like, in the eastern suburbs somewhere, and then we did another one, me and Hoppo did one, where they just wanted real feedback from tradesmen.

    [00:09:42] And 

    [00:09:43] Andrew: we're out in front of probably 60 people, and they sit there, and they just, honestly, they, they value our opinion. So you go there, and they genuinely want to... "All right, you don't like this," they want to just say it exactly how it is. Yeah. We want to know what's happening and we just got full support.

    [00:09:56] We're like- Yeah ... "I really need this tool for this job this week," and they bang, the next day it's [00:10:00] there. Yeah. No questions asked. Like, it's, "Hey, hey, my, my dad needs something." "Yep, cool. What do you need?" I 

    [00:10:05] Joel: reckon, yeah, I reckon because of the deal with Dewalt and, or because of the support that we get, that's sort of enabled me to lean into the content a bit more.

    [00:10:14] Otherwise- Yeah ... I'd be like, "I'm fucking wasting my time." Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? '

    [00:10:18] Hamish: Cause I asked Hoppo this earlier on, and he said that, um, you know, financially, he's getting 50% of kickbacks from all the stuff that he's doing for the brands and stuff. W- what was it for you guys? Do, do you get... 

    [00:10:30] Joel: I'm nowhere near that.

    [00:10:31] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:10:31] Joel: Nah. I mean, I've got... My business, you know, is, is trucking along really nicely now- nowadays. 

    [00:10:38] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:10:38] Joel: and it's doing its own thing, and it's- Yeah ... it's really doing well. This is honestly a creative outlet for me. Yeah. 

    [00:10:42] Matt: Does it bring in work at all? Do you get clients calling you because 

    [00:10:45] Joel: they've seen you?

    [00:10:45] Nah, but I think, like, supervisors and stuff that I work for, they're all tradesmen too. So whatever's in their algorithm, man, I'm, I'm in their algorithm. So I'm probably just more front and center for them, so maybe they just... There's probably guys that I couldn't create a relationship with [00:11:00] early days that it's helped to create the relationship because they're like, "Oh, yeah, I know fucking Joel."

    [00:11:03] 'Cause they've got a parasocial 

    [00:11:05] Andrew: relationship with you. Do you think that helps with, like, your, your quick tradie eats and stuff like that? Because you can... It's something that everyone can relate to, you know? Yeah. Like, they might see you and go like, "Oh, I don't know how to build these windows. I don't know much about that.

    [00:11:16] But hey, I really, I know a good burger joint down the road." Yeah, yeah, yeah. "I know I can spark that with Joel." That's a, that's a point of communication now that we've got. 

    [00:11:22] Joel: Yeah. Yeah, like, I think, like, doing the quick tradie eats, even all that sort of little, little stuff, I, I'm just trying to kind of dispel the misconceptions around tradesmen Like, I think there's a shitload of misconceptions around being a tradesperson.

    [00:11:37] Matt: I... Well, th- this is good. What are they? 

    [00:11:39] Joel: Well, first of all, that we eat fucking meat pies and big M's. Like, that's 30 years ago, right? 

    [00:11:45] Hamish: If, if I come on as a influencer for DeWalt, do I need a nose ring?

    [00:11:52] Andrew: Uh, yeah, you do. Where's the guy at? We've got a piercing studio, actually. Yeah. Joel's trying. Yeah.

    [00:11:57] Matt: 16 gauge barrel. So, so, so- Yeah, yeah ... so diet aside, like I think, 'cause I, I think it's a really good conversation. 

    [00:11:59] Hamish: [00:12:00] I'd, I'd put a... I'd, I'd do a nose ring for it. Uh, probably a little... I wouldn't go ring, but I'd go scale a stud, I reckon. Yeah, yeah. That'd be cute. It'd suit ya. That'd be cute. It'd be 

    [00:12:07] Joel: great to walk, walking to Pilates with 

    [00:12:09] Hamish: your little stud.

    [00:12:10] Yeah. I'm happy to talk about that. Let's do it. I had a great session of Pilates last night. So the context is... Sorry, Matt. Jo- I talked to Joel last night, and he goes, "Matt, I've got a, got a quick, uh, just a couple of quick, quick minutes of your time. I've been asked to go on some fucking radio station. Want to know if it's cl- clashing with your, uh, podcast recording tomorrow."

    [00:12:30] I'm like, "Fuck off, wanker." I go, "I've only got a couple of minutes, and I'm about to go into Pilates." And Joel's like, "Man, we are living the most d- polar opposite lives right now. I'm in my shed drinking beer, working on my daughter's go-kart, cooking up Italian sausages." Yeah. "And you're wearing Lycra about to go into Pilates."

    [00:12:47] I'm like... 

    [00:12:48] Matt: After getting a pedicure. 

    [00:12:49] Hamish: Yeah. Absolutely. What do you think 

    [00:12:53] Matt: I'll say later? There's builders and 

    [00:12:54] Joel: then there's 

    [00:12:54] Hamish: builders. 

    [00:12:56] Matt: Exactly. So, so I want to go back to this misconception tradies. I think it's a really good [00:13:00] actual topic that's gonna... we can discuss. We've got to have something. Um, the, the, the diet part I thinks crap.

    [00:13:07] Like, I don't see many meat pies. Uh, maybe on a Friday when they go pick up a box of KFC or something. Yeah. But, like, I, I think the... my biggest misconception on tradies is that they're dumb. That's what- Yeah. 

    [00:13:18] Hamish: Hey, wait, just on that, have you ever seen Simon's diet? Old mate up in Mr. Survivor. Simon, me. Man, he's- Yeah

    [00:13:24] Andrew: like 

    [00:13:24] Hamish: a flat out KFC, isn't he? He, 

    [00:13:26] Andrew: he does- And he's got a wig ... every Tuesday he's got his thing, yeah. But he's- No, but he's 

    [00:13:29] Joel: fucking ripped as. Yeah. 

    [00:13:31] Andrew: He could... He'd only 

    [00:13:32] Joel: ever... If he ate that, it's on camera, I reckon, every other time he wouldn't like- He, he fits it out after it. Yeah. 

    [00:13:37] Andrew: I speak with Simmo pretty much every day.

    [00:13:39] Yeah. He's a good dude, too. He's like... But he reckons he doesn't go to the gym. I want to go to the gym that he's not going to. Oh. It is ridiculous. Surely. Really? Ridiculous. 

    [00:13:46] Hamish: He's just one of those really infuriating people that just has a great- Is he 

    [00:13:48] Joel: jamming tren, like flat M? Yeah. What's 

    [00:13:53] Andrew: going on there?

    [00:13:53] There's gotta be something. There's gotta be something. There's gotta be. Something's going on. That, 

    [00:13:54] Joel: that's not genetics. 

    [00:13:55] Andrew: No, but he doesn't- It can't be ... he doesn't talk about his food other, other than that. No. He's, um, he has a- [00:14:00] Other than chasing heat ... when he went on Survivor, 'cause I knew there was a, a... I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.

    [00:14:03] Anyway, it's on there now. Um- He's 

    [00:14:05] Hamish: on Survivor? 

    [00:14:06] Andrew: Yeah, he's done his third one, but yeah. Yeah. But when, when he... He's in our group chat, and he'll be like, "Hey, I'm going offline for the next three months." Um, got invited back to the show. He set up his whole Instagram with, like, um, scheduled posts. So every Tuesday for 100 days, he would have his, um, KFC for lunch.

    [00:14:27] His zinger, his zinger Tuesdays or whatever would pop up. Oh. So we had it dialled in so every Tuesday that would pop up. And he's- So what did he do? He eat, eat KFC like every day 

    [00:14:33] Hamish: for 

    [00:14:33] Andrew: two weeks beforehand? I don't know. He s- Did somebody go on Survivor? And, and then he got all post fades go on re- yeah. 

    [00:14:39] Hamish: So he did it just so people didn't know he was on Survivor.

    [00:14:41] Andrew: Exactly right. Yeah. So it looked normal to 

    [00:14:42] Hamish: his- But I didn't think he was going on Survivor, because he posted on social 

    [00:14:44] Andrew: media. No, but that was... Yeah, but that was- It's a pretty... That's 

    [00:14:46] Matt: after the

    [00:14:50] fact, isn't it? Yeah, there's a pretty general term that you can't let someone know that you're doing something for a while. Okay. He 

    [00:14:51] Andrew: was, like, back 

    [00:14:51] Hamish: on ND- He's a good f- We, we've been trying to get him on podcast for a bit. Um, we'll make it happen, but we want to get him in person. Yeah. Well, 

    [00:14:55] Matt: we... He's Brisbane based, yeah?

    [00:14:57] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:14:57] Andrew: Yeah. Well, we spoke- Yeah ... to him from a marketing background. 

    [00:14:59] Matt: We, 

    [00:14:59] Hamish: we [00:15:00] tried to get him on. We're 

    [00:15:00] Matt: going to Brisbane soon. 

    [00:15:01] Hamish: Well, in September. Yeah. We tried to get him on when you guys were all influencing like a couple of months ago. Because we got Sammy on. Oh, yeah. And he goes, "The Ox Tool thing." Yeah. He goes, he goes, "I'm, I'm busy influencing."

    [00:15:10] Andrew: That was so good. That Ox stat was 

    [00:15:12] Hamish: so good. He's a, 

    [00:15:12] Joel: he's a good dude. 

    [00:15:12] Andrew: He's a good dude. 

    [00:15:13] Joel: He's a rip-roarin' guy, man. Yeah, really good dude. 

    [00:15:14] Andrew: He's very calculated, so, um- 

    [00:15:17] Joel: I want to get back to what Matt was talking about tradies being dumb. 

    [00:15:20] Andrew: Oh, yeah. 

    [00:15:21] Joel: I, um, I... That's a, that's a real big one- Mm ... I reckon. 'Cause I was, I'm...

    [00:15:25] My background's Sri Lankan, right? So, you know, you have to go to university. 

    [00:15:30] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:15:30] Joel: That's like the thing, is like... And my, my bro- Andre- Yeah ... once called me. He goes, "I'm not one of your dumb tradie mates." Ooh. Whoa. And we had a fucking huge blowout over it. So your, 

    [00:15:39] Hamish: so your brother- Yeah ... who we all know really well.

    [00:15:41] Joel: Yeah. And do 

    [00:15:42] Hamish: you 

    [00:15:42] Matt: know what? I've got 

    [00:15:44] Hamish: all the time in the world for Andre. He's a good friend of mine. But I think even that kind of comment is just not- It's just not relevant these days. Like, like- 

    [00:15:53] Joel: No, look, it was, it was many years ago, and we were running big together- 

    [00:15:58] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:15:58] Joel: okay ... at each other's throats.

    [00:15:59] Hamish: [00:16:00] Yeah. 

    [00:16:00] Joel: It was heated. Real, real, real heated thing, right? And I fucking flipped my lid when he said it. Yeah. 'Cause I've, I'm, like, hypersensitive to that- Yeah ... sort of stereotype. It's like, "Fuck, fuck you. I'm not stupid just 'cause I'm a tradesman." Yeah. "I'd argue that I'm fucking smarter than you 'cause I'm, I fucking picked the trend."

    [00:16:18] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:16:18] Joel: You know what I mean? So just because I swear or just 'cause I'm less polished, it doesn't mean, you know, that I'm less than. Well, I agree with you. You know? I actually think there are heaps of people with degrees that are fucking idiots. 

    [00:16:29] Hamish: Yeah. Mm. 

    [00:16:29] Joel: Right? Um- 

    [00:16:30] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, let, let's just go on the record as saying- Sorry.

    [00:16:32] Joel: I'm gonna- ... 

    [00:16:32] Hamish: long, long time ago from Andre, 'cause I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna poo- No, no ... I don't wanna poo-poo Andre 'cause he's- No, no, no ... a fucking legend. And- 

    [00:16:38] Joel: On Andre, Andre actually, I, I will say this one thing. Andre actually, I moved in with Andre when I was in my teens just to get through high school.

    [00:16:46] Like, he actually went to my parent-teacher interviews. 

    [00:16:49] Hamish: Really? 

    [00:16:49] Joel: Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. He, he did heaps for me as a kid. If it wasn't for Andre, I'd have been dropped out at year nine. 

    [00:16:56] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:16:56] Joel: Yeah. So he's, he's- So 

    [00:16:58] Hamish: he is the smarter one. 

    [00:16:59] Joel: He's, yeah, [00:17:00] he 

    [00:17:03] Matt: is. But there's this thing that, like, schools were like, "You gotta go to university and you do careers day and you've gotta go...

    [00:17:08] If you don't go to uni, you're a failure if you're not a doctor or a lawyer or a..." 

    [00:17:12] Andrew: You go to uni these days, you end up working in the timber yard serving us anyway, Dan. 

    [00:17:15] Hamish: Yeah. Let, let me ask you, like, just let me ask you, like, is- Can't get you ... is that stigma still there? 'Cause I know we've talked about it a lot.

    [00:17:20] Yeah, of course it is. Like, it kind of feels like being a tradie is the cop-out. Like- I think 

    [00:17:24] Joel: it's unspoken now. 

    [00:17:26] Hamish: Is unspoken, okay. 

    [00:17:27] Joel: You know? I reckon it's still, people still think it, you know? Yeah. But I don't think that- Do 

    [00:17:31] Andrew: you think that's the government system to keep people in school? 

    [00:17:33] Joel: Well, man, when you went to school, did, how many t- like, how many tradies or someone came and spoke to you about doing a trade?

    [00:17:39] Hamish: Not one. 

    [00:17:40] Joel: None. That's 

    [00:17:40] Hamish: right. Mate, I, I went to a private school in Yarra Valley, and- Oh, sh- ... and not, n- not once did they talk about trades. Yeah. And all my mates who ended up becoming tradespeople, 'cause they're all like me, couldn't fucking sit still in class. Yeah. And they all ended up doing sparkies, cabinet makers.

    [00:17:57] They all run successful businesses now. 

    [00:17:59] Andrew: But how many people [00:18:00] said to you after, obviously, proceeding school, Yarra Valley, right? 

    [00:18:02] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:18:03] Andrew: Said to you, "Geez, your parents wasted their money sending you there." 

    [00:18:05] Hamish: Well, so I'm, I'm a little bit different. I went to, I went, I did go to uni. 

    [00:18:08] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:18:09] Hamish: So after I finished school, um, I, I value the education that I got there, and I reckon if I had've ended up in the public school system, I probably would've got lost.

    [00:18:19] Mm. And I probably wouldn't have turned out. 

    [00:18:20] Andrew: Yeah. And there's definitely values you pick out of that- Mm ... to made you a- are today. Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:18:24] Hamish: Yeah. So, uh, I'm not saying I'm interesting example, but I think I'm a little bit different, 'cause I can kind of... I can see both sides of it. 

    [00:18:33] Joel: Yeah. I 

    [00:18:34] Hamish: can see both sides of university.

    [00:18:35] I can see value in going to a really good public school. I can see value in going to a really good private school. But then there's also parts of the private school system that I don't like. 

    [00:18:43] Joel: What if there was a private tech school? 'Cause we got rid of tech schools. Yeah, I love that. What if there was a fucking private tech school, like where you could go, you could send your kids, sorry, and they could learn about running a small business, like corporate structure- There's a massive opportunity there

    [00:18:58] tax, and do their trade stuff- Yeah ... as [00:19:00] well. Yeah. Like i- like- That's 

    [00:19:01] Matt: a very good idea. Yeah. 

    [00:19:02] Joel: You, you... Yeah. Think about it. People are paying 30, $40,000 to send their kids to a private school for a better education. Is it better? A year. A year. Per child. 

    [00:19:12] Matt: That, that's now, and that's... So let's also touch on that for a second.

    [00:19:15] So that's 40 grand net. 

    [00:19:17] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:19:18] Matt: That's after they've paid their taxes. That's before- Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:19:20] Hamish: That's 

    [00:19:20] Joel: post-tax. 

    [00:19:21] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's... So really you've got to earn 60 grand. 

    [00:19:26] Hamish: No, I reckon if you've got three kids- It's way more than that ... it's one person- Yeah, that's, that's before you put- ... working full time in that family-

    [00:19:30] food on the table ... at 120 grand a year to just to send your kids to private school, 'cause you've got to then add on all the other things on top. 

    [00:19:36] Joel: So what if your kid's not that way inclined, like yourself? What if you could go back in time and your parents could have sent you to a 40 grand, 30, 25 grand a year tech school, where you came out and you actually, you went and learnt in an environment that suited you?

    [00:19:52] Hamish: Do you know what? I d- I don't know what the answer is that for me, because I didn't do badly at school. Yeah. So academically- Yeah, I can't, can- ... I was, I was okay. [00:20:00] But I'm, I'm thinking about other people who kind of limped through year 12. 

    [00:20:03] Matt: The good ones- Like- ... when they finish their, finish high school, they go into the apprenticeship straight away.

    [00:20:07] They're the ones who've always wanted to be a tradie. Yeah. Like, I think that- Yeah. I think- Well, that was me. I- But I don't reckon I, I 

    [00:20:11] Hamish: nev- I wasn't ready when I finished school. 

    [00:20:13] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:20:13] Hamish: Me either. Like, I, I went overseas for four years. I didn't get into carpentry till I was 24. 

    [00:20:17] Joel: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:20:17] Hamish: So I didn't c- I came in t- too late.

    [00:20:19] And that's probably 

    [00:20:19] Joel: more common now too. 

    [00:20:21] Hamish: Well, I reckon it benefited me, 'cause I- Well, I think that, yeah ... went, went to univers- I finished school, went to university, and I traveled for four years. And I, I got back, and at that point I'm like, "Louise..." 'Cause I'd just met Louise while I was overseas, dragged her back to Melbourne, and I'm like, "I wanna be a chippy.

    [00:20:34] This is what I wanna do." And I was so focused at that point to becoming a chippy. Mm. And I don't reckon I would've done that at 18. 

    [00:20:40] Andrew: There's a lot of pressure on 16-year-olds to know what they wanna do for the rest of their life. And 

    [00:20:42] Hamish: ding, ding, ding, ding. How the fuck are they meant to know that? Yeah. But even someone going to university.

    [00:20:46] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:20:46] Hamish: Like 

    [00:20:47] Matt: people listening to this podcast that'll be pushing their kids to go to university, and- 

    [00:20:51] Hamish: One, one really good... Sorry. One, one really good thing about the American system is they go and do a year of college. Like- Oh, yeah, yeah. To, just to figure shit out. Mm. [00:21:00] Like they don't go- Yeah ... and start doing their university degree until the second year.

    [00:21:04] Or finish school, go overseas for a year. 

    [00:21:06] Andrew: Well, I feel like that's so important. Like, the guys that I've had in and employed that have traveled, and they bit culture, and they, and understand- Yeah ... and appreciate things- 

    [00:21:13] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:21:14] Andrew: wildly different. Yeah. 

    [00:21:15] Matt: Yeah. An 18-year-old boy, are they really what you want to be dealing with?

    [00:21:18] Hamish: 26-year-olds. 

    [00:21:19] Matt: No, but like what I'm saying is- I'm just saying ... do you really want to be dealing with an 18-year-old boy as an apprentice? As 

    [00:21:22] Hamish: an apprentice Oh, look, one thing- 

    [00:21:24] Matt: I've got one now. It's a little bit more challenging I, 

    [00:21:26] Andrew: I don't think I'm built the, built like that anymore to be able to deal with these young kids and- 

    [00:21:32] Joel: Yeah, see, I'm getting to a different stage, I reckon, where I'm actually wanting- Punga

    [00:21:37] like, a, a, a young kid that's actually really keen to learn, 'cause I've got a little bit of capacity now. Yeah, but 21. But 20- 21 But I reckon half the problem is as the business owner and the tradesman, you've got so much other shit that you're trying to do. Yeah. And people, like tradesmen are part of the problem, 'cause they think they're gonna hire an apprentice as cheap labor.

    [00:21:53] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:21:54] Joel: It's not. It's expensive labor from a time and a cost perspective. Yeah. What you should be doing, and so many [00:22:00] people message me on Instagram asking my advice on who to hire, and I'm like always, "A good fucking chippy." 

    [00:22:05] Matt: But, uh, so first year apprentice- Yeah, 

    [00:22:06] Joel: get a good qualified first, yeah ... will cost you 

    [00:22:07] Matt: $34 an hour, roughly, cost.

    [00:22:10] Hamish: I reckon it's more. No, 

    [00:22:11] Joel: it's more, man. It's more. Because you gotta pay for them at trade school, plus you gotta pay for their trade school. Yeah, 

    [00:22:15] Matt: yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. So- 

    [00:22:16] Hamish: We, we, we've worked it out. It's 50 bucks an hour it costs you- Costs you ... to take an apprentice. 

    [00:22:19] Joel: Not to mention it'll slow down your productivity.

    [00:22:22] Oh. And they will fuck things up more than- Yeah ... you know, current will. Yeah. So you add those costs in. They're not cheap. I'm not adding, no, I'm 

    [00:22:26] Matt: adding those costs that you can't quantify. 

    [00:22:28] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:22:28] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:22:29] Joel: But, you know, my, my, my thing now is I'm like, because I have capacity, I reckon it'd be cool, 'cause I could actually teach the skill.

    [00:22:38] But 

    [00:22:38] Matt: do they appreciate it that age? This is where I'm kind of wanting to get to, because I think- No, I don't think I did. I was 19 when I started. 

    [00:22:42] Joel: No. I didn't really appreciate it. But it's like- But I didn't have a choice either ... 

    [00:22:45] Matt: 20, 21, 22 I feel is, like, the ultimate spot. 

    [00:22:49] Andrew: I reckon the penny dropped for me, I was, like, mid-20s before I appreciated what I was doing.

    [00:22:52] Hamish: 30. 

    [00:22:53] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:22:54] Hamish: 30 for me. Yeah. You guys? Yeah, I, yeah, I w- l- l- I was having a chat with, um, my VA yesterday about, like, [00:23:00] who, what I was like when I was 26, 27, and I'm like, "There's no way I could sit here and have, like, a, a, a serious conversation with anyone." 

    [00:23:08] Joel: Oh, 

    [00:23:08] Hamish: bro. I was off here and there, and 

    [00:23:09] Joel: I'm like- I'd say, no, well, I'm different.

    [00:23:11] I started my first business at 

    [00:23:12] Hamish: 22. Yeah, okay. 

    [00:23:13] Joel: I started BINC at 22. 

    [00:23:15] Hamish: Yeah, right. 

    [00:23:15] Joel: Okay. Yeah. So I was qualified for a few months, and then we were into it. And- Yeah ... our first year we did a million bucks, and then we were doing three after, like, two and a half years. 

    [00:23:24] Hamish: Wow, okay. Yeah. But I guess different... Yeah. 

    [00:23:28] Joel: Oh, man.

    [00:23:28] I wasn't ready. The epitome of- I was a, I was a pain in the ass- ... not a dumb tradie ... to work for, right? I was like, you kn- you knew it all kind of thing. I, I sort of, and I'll still maintain this, I reckon when I was that age, I reckon I had the answers, right? But I found them. Like, I, I sort of went a bit backwards a b- uh, like I did it a, in a backwards way, but I still made it work.

    [00:23:51] Andrew: Was it... W- what do you mean by that, though? Like you weren't confident in yourself? 

    [00:23:54] Joel: I knew... I backed myself in. Like- 

    [00:23:56] Matt: You 

    [00:23:56] Andrew: couldn't 

    [00:23:57] Matt: communicate it ... 

    [00:23:57] Joel: I just couldn't, I just didn't have the street [00:24:00] cred f- Yeah ... behind me. Ah, okay. But I'm like, "No, I can do this." 

    [00:24:02] Hamish: Yeah. All 

    [00:24:03] Joel: right? Um- The 

    [00:24:03] Andrew: confidence. 

    [00:24:03] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:24:04] Andrew: And 

    [00:24:04] Matt: even if you didn't, you'd fake it till you make it, formula- Oh, blind optimism

    [00:24:06] last 10%. Yeah. Yeah, 

    [00:24:08] Joel: yeah, yeah. But if 

    [00:24:08] Andrew: you- When did you find that confidence? 'Cause you said, like, in high school you weren't, like, a popular kid or... Yeah 

    [00:24:13] Joel: No, I was overweight. Yeah. I was 102 kilos in high school. 

    [00:24:15] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:24:16] Joel: Yeah. That's probably where I found it. 

    [00:24:17] Andrew: S- okay. Is that... But, but how did you find it, being overweight?

    [00:24:20] Like, often it's the opposite. Yeah. Do you think, like, did you just go like, "Fuck it, this is what I am. 

    [00:24:25] Joel: Well, 

    [00:24:26] Andrew: I- "I might as well live it," 

    [00:24:26] Joel: or what? ... I think I just had a moment. I was like, "Well, I can either believe what they're all saying, or say, 'Fuck you, I'm, I'm gonna believe what I reckon.'" 

    [00:24:33] Andrew: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:24:33] Joel: And I just feel like- It's good.

    [00:24:34] It's good ... "Oh, I reckon I'm all right, actually." Like, I- Okay ... I rate myself. Yeah. And, um- Fuckin' love 

    [00:24:39] Andrew: that ... 

    [00:24:39] Joel: I did. I would fake, I would fake it, fake confidence and everything, and that would provide... I got myself into fights and shit when I was younger all the time. Yeah, 

    [00:24:47] Andrew: me too. '

    [00:24:47] Joel: Cause I got, I got teased a lot as well, and I just...

    [00:24:51] Fucking, it was like water off a duck's back sort of thing. It would hurt me later on, like, you know, when I was on my own and- Mm. I'd really stew on 

    [00:24:58] Hamish: shit. I, I... It, it would hurt for me, 'cause I, [00:25:00] I got, um, I got bullied when I was a kid too 'cause I was- Really? ... I was an overweight kid. Really? Up until about 16.

    [00:25:05] Yeah. Yeah, right. And then it kind of just fell off, like you sort of grow and whatever. So I, I reckon from grade three up until seven, year seven or eight, you know, it was pretty... It was always a thing, right? And, and it, and it, it has impacted me even to this day. Um, 'cause like I've got a nine-year-old, you know, nine-year-old kid's now starting to- 

    [00:25:24] Andrew: Their brain is different to us, but, yeah

    [00:25:26] Hamish: and, and, and kids in the, in the playground are tr- uh, are starting to try to work out life, and that... Well, sometimes that comes out in bullying, and unfortunately Darcy's been on the end of bullying. And this has r- been really, um, hard for me recently because it's bringing up all these memories of when I was a kid.

    [00:25:45] Joel: Mm. 

    [00:25:45] Hamish: And I don't want that for him, 'cause I know how it impacted me. Mm. Even to this day. Like, I think I'm in pretty good shape now, but I'm still the fat kid that I was when I was 14. 

    [00:25:54] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:25:55] Hamish: Like, I l- you know, without sort of talking about body dysmorphia, but I, I'll look at myself in the [00:26:00] mirror now, and I'll still think that.

    [00:26:01] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:26:02] Hamish: When I know it's not the case. 

    [00:26:03] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:26:03] Hamish: So I know, I know how it impacts... It's impacted me throughout my entire life. 

    [00:26:07] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:26:07] Hamish: So my question to you is, um, how do you approach that with your kids? Because I feel like we're in a different time now where we can talk to our kids and- Um, we can help them kind of navigate bullying and, you know, certain people in their life sort of not being great influences on them.

    [00:26:25] Like, how do you navigate that? Oh. Because I'm, I'm figuring this out now. 

    [00:26:28] Joel: I basically do the opposite to the, to, like, what my old man was like with me. I mean, my old man was in the '40s in a Catholic boarding school, right? Okay. Okay. So they were, like, notoriously horrible- 

    [00:26:38] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:26:39] Joel: uh, environments to grow up in, right?

    [00:26:40] Yeah. So my dad, he had zero emotions. Yeah. It was, like, angry, um, or indifferent. Yeah. Okay. Like, 

    [00:26:48] Matt: that 

    [00:26:48] Joel: was sort of it. Yeah. Um, but I've... I, I, I just think back to, like you said, I think back to being that kid, and so my son's copying it a little bit now. N- not 'cause he's overweight, he's just hanging out with grade [00:27:00] threes and he's in prep.

    [00:27:01] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. '

    [00:27:01] Joel: Cause he's, like, real... 

    [00:27:03] Matt: He looks, he looks like a younger grade three then. 

    [00:27:05] Joel: Yeah. Like, but he's just so full on, like, he's so crash and bash. He wants to talk to the, to the- Yeah ... older kids. 

    [00:27:12] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:27:13] Joel: Um, and they like him, but then when they tease him he doesn't quite get it- Yeah ... and he flips out a bit.

    [00:27:18] And I'm like, "Mate, you need to maybe not hang out with grade threes 'cause they're talking about things that you don't know." 

    [00:27:22] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:27:23] Joel: So I... The biggest thing I do, man, is I just listen to him, and then I ask him questions- Yeah ... and it gets him to talk more. Yeah. And then I've found now- Even for the kids, it's like the whole thing with your wife.

    [00:27:37] They just wanna talk. 

    [00:27:38] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:27:38] Joel: Most of the point, most of the time. Like, they just wanna be 

    [00:27:41] Hamish: heard. In, in, in a r- in the right way. You, you- Yeah ... and they wanna feel heard- Yeah ... just like you wanna talk and wanna feel h- h- h- heard as well. 

    [00:27:46] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So- Yeah ... that's, that's what I've been doing, to be honest.

    [00:27:49] Yeah. 

    [00:27:49] Hamish: Yeah. How 

    [00:27:50] Matt: did we end up on that 

    [00:27:50] Hamish: conversation? 

    [00:27:52] Joel: I don't know. But I feel 

    [00:27:53] Hamish: like it's gonna be a lot of sideways- I don't know. It's just, it's just interesting 'cause I'm going through it now with my kids. No, no. And, and like I, I... it, it's just a real sore point for me [00:28:00] 'cause I know what a... how hard it was. 

    [00:28:01] Joel: Mm.

    [00:28:02] Hamish: And now I'm at a point in life where now I don't care. 

    [00:28:04] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:28:04] Hamish: Like, you know, talking to you last night, I'm in fucking Lycra and doing Pilates. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, "I actually don't give a fuck because-" Yeah, yeah ... "I enjoy this." Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not gonna criticize you for fucking drinking beers and cooking Italian sausages.

    [00:28:16] Yeah, yeah, 

    [00:28:16] Andrew: yeah. That's what you get at 30. You hit 30 and you start realizing, like, "I actually don't give a fuck what other people think." Yeah, exactly. This makes me happy. Like, oh, you rag on me, great. For me, that's engagement. Great. Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:28:25] Hamish: Yeah. You know? And, and I tell you what, I felt so much better getting in the car at 8:00 last night than I did when I walked into that class at 7:00, 'cause I stretched and I did whatever, and I'm like, "Okay, cool.

    [00:28:32] I needed that." 

    [00:28:33] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:28:33] Andrew: Also I want to quickly touch on how you said you look in the mirror now and you still feel like the overweight younger kid. Yeah. Do you use that... Do you look at that differently now and use that for motivation? Or does it get you down? No. Like, how do you- 

    [00:28:43] Hamish: Nah. So I think, uh... And, and I really, uh, I, I, I hesitate, like, talking about body image because I don't know if it's healthy, and I don't necessarily wanna, um...

    [00:28:57] Like, I'm really conscious about the language I use around my kids because I don't [00:29:00] want it to be a thing. Mm. Like, you know, our narrative is like food is energy, and energy is to move our body, and all that kind of stuff. Um, I do feel that when I'm feeling good and eating right, my head's really good. 

    [00:29:13] Matt: Mm.

    [00:29:13] Mm. 

    [00:29:14] Hamish: And, you know, I've unknowingly been managing my ADHD by exercising really regularly for the past 43 years of my life. Yeah. So- 

    [00:29:24] Joel: Talk about mindful builder. This is, like- Yeah. ... this is a mindful builder chat. Exactly right. This is not what people would've been thinking they'd be hearing on this, 

    [00:29:32] Hamish: this episode.

    [00:29:32] No, and I didn't know it was gonna go there either. But, like, I, I don't, I don't f- like, for me, what I'm doing with my life and my body right now is for me. Yeah. Yeah. It's not about any- anybody else. 

    [00:29:42] Matt: So this, this probably links back to then going back to the kids with the apprenticeship or thinking about it.

    [00:29:47] Do you think it's the parents are the barriers to the child wanting to do the apprenticeship because they've perceived through their generations that- 

    [00:29:53] Hamish: Maybe ... 

    [00:29:53] Matt: that... 

    [00:29:54] Joel: Yeah. Ha- 

    [00:29:54] Hamish: have 

    [00:29:54] Matt: any 

    [00:29:55] Hamish: of you guys ever 

    [00:29:55] Joel: copped phone calls from a parent of an apprentice? 

    [00:29:58] Hamish: Only once a long time ago. 

    [00:29:58] Matt: Yeah, I've had a, I've had [00:30:00] a few.

    [00:30:00] Joel: Yeah. I had one once, and that, it was one and done. That was it. Yeah. 

    [00:30:04] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, "You're holding your kid back right now." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:30:08] Matt: I, I know. I'm, I've been the opposite. I have been the, "Oh, we wanna have weekly meetings to understand how the development..." I was like, "No, no, no. You're in the big world now.

    [00:30:15] Like, you're, you're employed. You're not at, you're not at school anymore." What? 

    [00:30:18] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:30:19] Matt: Yeah, I've had a few like that early- There's, there's no 

    [00:30:20] Hamish: parent-teacher interviews. 

    [00:30:20] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nah. This is, this is work. 

    [00:30:22] Andrew: Does that reflect on the kid that were hesitant about everything and- 

    [00:30:25] Matt: Um- Like, I guess ultimately they're mindset at home

    [00:30:28] I've got to be very mindful how I comment about this right now. Um- Yeah, you could see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you could see that it was a bit of cottonwoo- actually, it was a lot of cottonwool wrapping. I think that happens a lot, though, now. Yeah. Anyway, 

    [00:30:39] Andrew: so. It's scary, though. You think your kid's going from school in a semi-controlled environment to, like, all right, out with these dumb tradies, with these brutes.

    [00:30:45] You know what I mean? Like, it's what's- 

    [00:30:46] Hamish: Es- es- especially if they're younger. 

    [00:30:49] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:30:49] Hamish: 10, 11, 12. Year 10, 

    [00:30:50] Matt: 11, 12, yeah. And that, and that's the barrier that I've seen, is that because that, like, I don't give a fuck what an 18-year-old is doing. I don't... And what they think is cool is definitely not what I think cool, and it goes back to the comment [00:31:00] hiring someone younger.

    [00:31:01] Mm. It's very hard to actually connect with them, because you just don't care. Oh, yeah. Maybe, maybe once your kid's 18, then you can kind of know their friends, you understand what's happening. 

    [00:31:09] Hamish: Yeah, the tricky part about that, though, is I, I actually think that you do wanna have an environment that accepts all different kinds of people at different ages and levels of maturity and stuff like that.

    [00:31:18] But, but it's- It's hard to connect, though ... but do 

    [00:31:18] Matt: you want, but do you want, but ultimately you want culture. No, and I- And, and we talk about discrimination. I tot- and I'll say that, yes, you shouldn't discriminate. But ultimately, I'll hire who I think is best, and if I think a 30-year-old is better for the role than an 18-year-old, that's discrimination.

    [00:31:34] Hamish: Well, this is tricky, isn't it? Because I think you need to hire for the c- culture of the business. Now, I, I know you don't have a team, but I know you have a team. Mm. And you talk a lot about the culture in your team, and I guess from what I see on social media- 

    [00:31:46] Joel: Yeah ... 

    [00:31:46] Hamish: you, you look like you've got a really tight team.

    [00:31:50] Like, how do you go about fostering that? 

    [00:31:52] Joel: I'm just really honest with them, man. I don't talk shit to them. I, I've, I've got a shit mem- uh, short-term memory for all that sort of [00:32:00] stuff, so I can't... I hate fucking lying and s- telling them one version, and then... Like, I don't wanna be like, "Oh, I better not drive the Tundra so my staff s- don't see it."

    [00:32:09] You know? Like, I can't be fucked. Yeah. It's too hard. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just honest with them. Yeah. But I tell them, I'm like, "You want me to make money." 

    [00:32:16] Hamish: Mm. Yeah, 

    [00:32:17] Joel: yeah. Like, "You want me to be making money," 'cause that's how, you know- That's how you get paid ... pay goes through every Mon- Yeah ... Monday morning. 

    [00:32:22] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:32:23] Joel: Um, but then on the flip side, when it's really shit, I've told them like- I'm fucking at the end of my rope.

    [00:32:32] Like, I'm losing it. I need fucking help. We're in this fucking drama. This has happened, this has happened, this has happened. And you know what, man? Some of them jump. They're like- Fight or flight, yeah ... I'm, I'm n-n... This, I haven't signed up for this. And that's cool- Yeah ... 'cause I didn't really have that relationship with all of them either.

    [00:32:48] But it made those guys stick around. 

    [00:32:51] Hamish: Without, without getting too fucking, um, uh, Simon cynic here, but, uh, you know, vulnerability is a massive way of getting your team [00:33:00] to, to get that cohesion. 

    [00:33:01] Joel: Mm. '

    [00:33:02] Hamish: Cause I, I remem- There's been some times where I've struggled, 'cause I go up and down with my anxiety, and there's been times where I've been just really honest with the team.

    [00:33:09] I go, "Team, I'm struggling. Like, I'm really just holding shit together right now." I remember it'd be two years ago when we were buying and selling a house. I'm like, "I'm fucked. I've got a, I've got, like, a fiber of the thread right now- Mm ... that I'm holding onto. I need your help." Yeah. And every single one of the people at that table are just like, "All right.

    [00:33:27] Well, what can we do?" Yeah. 

    [00:33:28] Andrew: Yeah. It's sick, though. We used to do that. And- Yeah ... yeah On, like, a fortnightly, like every fortnight we'd have a toolbox meeting when I had my crew, and I feel like being open about that would reflect on... You know, you get on site and something little might set you off. Yeah. But if they've got substance to- Context

    [00:33:41] why you're feeling like

    [00:33:46] Matt: that. Yeah, yeah. Do you have short tempers though? Uh. Not anymore. You, you, you said you used 

    [00:33:47] Andrew: to, yeah. I used, I used to. Yeah. I'm getting better at, like, removing myself from the environment and being like, "Is this something I can fix right now?" Respond, don't react. Yeah, ex- exactly, yeah. Is it something I can fix?

    [00:33:56] Yeah. Is it something out of my control? Have a fucking breath. Like- [00:34:00] Yeah ... or you can feel... I'm, I'm so much more self-aware- Yeah ... in the last sort of three or four years than I was before. 

    [00:34:04] Hamish: Do you know what I do now? And I think you and I are probably a very similar, um, personality in how our brain works. If I'm really flustered in the moment, I'd actually physically say to myself, "Your response to this is gonna be so much different in five minutes."

    [00:34:21] Andrew: Yeah. "

    [00:34:21] Hamish: So go and take yourself away." And I'll say it out loud, and I'll walk away, and I'll walk 100 meters that way, 100 meters this way and just take some deep breaths. And now I'm like- Okay, cool. All right. 

    [00:34:30] Matt: That's why I won't send an email till the next day when I don't like the email. Yeah. I would just go and I'll write it, and then I read it sometimes like, "Ugh."

    [00:34:36] Yeah. 

    [00:34:36] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, you go over the, the whole, 

    [00:34:39] Matt: yeah. And I'm blunt, I'm already blunt and direct as it is- Mm ... let alone- Really? Yeah. I was... Well, that was gonna be my question. Like, how many of, is in your team, and how do you go with your team? 'Cause like, I obviously- We have a very quirky, different Sidest team, and I like that.

    [00:34:52] We're not your typical team, right? They're very, everyone's a very different background. I'm not big on the whole let's hang out after work thing. I [00:35:00] think that everyone should have a life, and I think it's like you work your, your n- we'll just say nine to five. Like, you do, like, you've got a life. I don't want you at work all the time.

    [00:35:07] I want you to be with your friends and family- Mm ... and whatever. For, for me, um, I, we're very just open. I don't, I don't really care about anything, to be honest with you. Like, you'll la- like, I, I will fire you quickly now. I've learned quickly if I don't like you, I'll just get rid of you from the start. I, I have a team that is awesome right now, and they just get along.

    [00:35:27] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:35:28] Matt: And that, that's all I ask. The rest will work itself out. I d- I don't overcomplicate it, and I think that's the problem is people go sign up for these team culture days and team bonding days, and I played a lot of footy. Mm. So culture for me is like, we've come from a club where we- Back in the day, it was old school footy club, and it's completely changed.

    [00:35:46] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:35:46] Matt: So c- I've got... I was part of that cultural shift. So creating culture, you can't create it, it just happens. Like you- Yeah, yeah ... you've 

    [00:35:51] Joel: gotta- I agree with that. 

    [00:35:52] Matt: You can't, you can't force culture down people's throats. 

    [00:35:55] Joel: No. We don't, we don't, we don't do anything from a cultural perspective aside from a [00:36:00] Christmas party, and we try to do- Yeah

    [00:36:01] like a camp trip in the middle of the year. Yeah. Or like the last few years, we would have a charity gala that we'd go to. Yeah, yeah. And we'd get the guys to all bring their, their partners. Yeah. 

    [00:36:09] Matt: I don't even do that. 

    [00:36:10] Joel: And they loved that. But that was only 'cause there was this charity thing, otherwise we don't do it.

    [00:36:14] Matt: Yeah. If you're forcing something, I think with culture, I think you're the problem yourself. Like if I'm forcing culture, like I'm a barrier myself. Yeah. 

    [00:36:21] Joel: That's a good way to put it. Yeah, yeah, I reckon you're right. Like we just, we just have a beer and all- Yeah ... we'll have a barbie sometimes or- I reckon my cheat code thing that I've just worked out is I do our team meeting now on a Friday arvo.

    [00:36:32] Matt: That's exactly what we do. We do our, we do our, we do our team meeting on a- Interesting. 

    [00:36:34] Joel: So 

    [00:36:35] Matt: good, man Do you do monthly? We just do a monthly team meeting. 

    [00:36:36] Joel: No, 'cause I can't get my head around spending about 1,500 bucks a month on like labor and- ... like costs. Yeah. Like, so I do it every six weeks. 

    [00:36:43] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:36:44] Matt: I see. So w- yeah, okay, we just do two hours on, yeah, 2:30, two o'clock every second Fr- every Friday and once a month.

    [00:36:49] Yeah. And we'll just go things, think what we're working on, what's coming up, what projects. Questions, I do a wellness survey, so I have a wellness survey now that it's the first time I've done it, that goes out to my team. Really? What's 

    [00:36:59] Hamish: in, what's in a [00:37:00] wellness survey? 

    [00:37:00] Joel: Um, so I, I'll, yeah, I'll grab it up and I'll literally read you the questions to anyone that wants to 

    [00:37:04] Matt: copy it.

    [00:37:05] Joel: So there's a few things- I'd put my guys to throw it out if I gave it to them. So, so, so- They'd probably- It's not, it's actually, it's not- Two of them, at least two of them would quit if I gave them a wellness survey ... I, I call, I call it a 

    [00:37:10] Matt: wel- I call it a wellness survey. It's not wellness. It's because I'm not on site all the time and I don't know what's happening, and I don't have the chance to see them every day.

    [00:37:19] So for me, I wanna know how they are, just how things are going on site, and how they're feeling. Um, I'm just gonna grab it up for a second. 

    [00:37:28] Hamish: While you're bringing it up, though, can I... I'm gonna challenge you, 'cause I think you're probably onto something here. Like I, there's been times where, like I'm not on site much, and I'll just message one of the team and go, "Hey, haven't seen you for a while.

    [00:37:42] How's, what's, what's going on? How's your family?" You know, just a little check-in like that. Mm. For like- 

    [00:37:47] Andrew: I go so far ... 

    [00:37:47] Hamish: couple of minutes. I'm, I'm just wondering- I d- ... I'm not saying that's not a good idea, but like it being so prescribed ... 

    [00:37:53] Matt: no, I still see them every, I still see them once a week, so I haven't... We do fortnightly- Yeah

    [00:37:57] job site meetings, so I'll always see them and I'll always say [00:38:00] hi. Um- Yeah. 

    [00:38:01] Hamish: I'm just trying to feel, you know, figure out, like... A- and you know you're gonna know your team, you're gonna know your team, I'm gonna know my team. So- You're gonna know your site ... so the 

    [00:38:07] Matt: questions of, they're, they're a little bit different- 

    [00:38:09] Hamish: You're like, "Andrew, hop over here."

    [00:38:12] "How, how am I feeling today?" 

    [00:38:14] Matt: Yeah. So, so, so to give you context- Everyone else lets me know- 

    [00:38:16] Andrew: Yeah ... because I'm 

    [00:38:16] Matt: so vocal about 

    [00:38:17] Andrew: everything. 

    [00:38:17] Matt: Yeah. So to give you context, it allows us to create goals for our team. Okay. Um, and not on ev- every one of them. So we might pick one that we're not, we're not doing well on.

    [00:38:24] So I've got the questions of how would you rate the tone of communication style on site? Like, and these are all anonymous. I can, if I wanted to, go find out who said it if I see something's red flagged. 

    [00:38:35] Hamish: Um- Whoa, hang on a minute. It's an- it's anonymous. 

    [00:38:37] Matt: Well, it's non- anonymous. It's non- anonymous. Because if there's a sexual harassment, something that no one wanted to speak up, I need to be able to see who it is.

    [00:38:42] But the, like, I don't... I, I have to actually... It, it's actually an effort to go find out who it is. 

    [00:38:48] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:38:48] Matt: So- Let's hope there's no sexual 

    [00:38:49] Hamish: harassment ... do you feel respected and free 

    [00:38:50] Matt: from any form of harassment or bullying on this site? When- 

    [00:38:53] Joel: I think my guys all sexually harass each other, to be totally honest.

    [00:38:59] Matt: When, so when you ha- when you [00:39:00] have a con- when you raise a- Thank Joel for coming 

    [00:39:06] Andrew: on the podcast. 

    [00:39:08] Matt: I, I have, I have to stop. I have to keep going. Stop it. And we'll, uh, we're done for today. Is that, is that your car out the front? I've got, so when you raise a con- a concern or suggestion, how much do you feel heard and supported?

    [00:39:13] Um, how do you feel the site is a place where everyone is treated with the same respect? How would you rate the cleanliness and upkeep of the toilets and on, on site each month? How would you rate the quality of work we've produced in the last month? Um, how would you rate the morale and atmosphere? How, when things go wrong, does the team focus on finding a solution?

    [00:39:32] Um, is everyone following safety? And how clear are our daily briefings? 

    [00:39:37] Hamish: I like the idea of that, Matt, but I just, my feedback, my constructive feedback is- It... Oh, fuck 

    [00:39:46] Joel: I've forgotten I, you know what? I'm gonna- I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something. I don't like it. 

    [00:39:50] Hamish: Yeah. Why? 

    [00:39:51] Joel: It's too formal. 

    [00:39:52] Andrew: I feel, yeah. I don't, nothing feels personable.

    [00:39:54] I, I don't feel, I feel like a, a text, like a check-in- 

    [00:39:56] Hamish: I feel- No, no, it's not the 

    [00:39:57] Joel: only 

    [00:39:58] Hamish: way I check in on 

    [00:39:58] Joel: them, though. 

    [00:39:59] Matt: No, no, I know, I know. 

    [00:39:59] Hamish: [00:40:00] I, I just feel- I just couldn't do that ... it's more like what kind of feedback are you gonna get from that? 

    [00:40:06] Matt: Okay, I'll give you an example. 

    [00:40:08] Joel: So- 

    [00:40:09] Hamish: And I guess this is where you know your team, I know my team.

    [00:40:12] I know that probably wouldn't fly with mine, but it might fly with his. 

    [00:40:14] Matt: No. No. So, so, so the reason, so the reason I started it is because I wanted them to understand themselves and give them a tool, a tool to rate themselves. So each, they get the results and all this. This isn't, we just go through it. And so for example, I- 

    [00:40:27] Hamish: But a self-rating tool's different to that

    [00:40:29] Matt: this is, so the, so I combine everyone's score, and then we have, I give them an average of what the team is. So it's not individual. So it's the, so we get a collective across the whole board on how we're going. So last month- 

    [00:40:40] Hamish: Do you treat it like a scientific thing and, and get the outliers? Do you remember the outliers?

    [00:40:44] Matt: Yeah, I actually do. 

    [00:40:45] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:40:45] Matt: okay. I've got like, so it's, I... So what we can do is- Surprise, 

    [00:40:47] Hamish: surprise. 

    [00:40:48] Matt: So,

    [00:40:52] so- Yeah. You've got, you've got three people working for the team, and there's one right in the middle and the other one doing the extremes. So I actually, so, so we have, so we can decide. So last, so last month I, me and Mark will also then rate. So we have, my construction [00:41:00] manager and I will come up with a score, and we put it against your score and how we think.

    [00:41:03] Now, some of these things I can't, I don't know what the morale's like crazy on site. But things like last month, I thought the site's been kept like shit for a whole month, so I was able to go, "Hey, Mark and I have both given you a three, but you guys rated, you thought the site was clean at eight, and I think you guys are- have not pulled weight here.

    [00:41:20] And there was actually someone else in that score that gave them a three. I don't know who it was. So obviously someone in the team thinks the score for our sites- Yeah, but 

    [00:41:27] Joel: then a- aren't they asking themselves the question, "Who the fuck is rating me?" 

    [00:41:30] Matt: No. Like, 

    [00:41:30] Joel: you know, in, in my, in- No. 

    [00:41:32] Matt: No, because they all agreed.

    [00:41:33] Uh, the ultimately I just said, i- what, otherwise what are you working towards? Like how do, how do you, how do you give them a chance to stop and associate and think like, "Geez, how was that site kept?" Or, "You know what, has there been any bullying or has there been anything?" Now I, my team will call me, I'll just call them randomly.

    [00:41:48] Like I do chat to them regularly. I n- I... Not about work, ironically. It's like, "What's going on the weekend?" Like, "You going away soon?" Or anything like that. But it's more so the fact that I wanted to have a system that we can track, so in a year [00:42:00] I can see that we've got a clear delineation of like the, we're, we're improving on our site.

    [00:42:04] So I've said, "Let's not aim for a 10 out of 10 cleanliness site. Let's just get hit, let's 

    [00:42:09] Hamish: hit four or five." Do, do you know what? I like the idea of what you've done, but what my challenge to you is I'd rethink the questions. 

    [00:42:15] Matt: I've spent six months on these questions, so 

    [00:42:17] Hamish: we- Look, I don't know. I kind of feel like my gut reaction to those questions, and I think your gut reaction, I'm not sure about you, was that that's not the right questions.

    [00:42:24] I like the sentiment. 

    [00:42:25] Matt: So w- w- in what, like- 

    [00:42:27] Hamish: And I don't know what the answer is ... ultimately, so ultimately, like what, 

    [00:42:28] Matt: what- So don't ask 

    [00:42:29] Hamish: me what I'd 

    [00:42:30] Matt: do, but- ... the goal is to make sure that n- like ultimately it's a HR exercise. I need to be, if I'm not around all the time, how do I check in to make sure that there's checkpoints along the way?

    [00:42:38] Hamish: I just feels a bit corporate-y. 

    [00:42:39] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:42:39] Matt: It, it has, you have to be now. 

    [00:42:41] Joel: I'd... But no, but I don't know if that actually resonates with a lot of tradespeople, man. Like, you know, like I think Hobbo and I, like are pretty representative of what a lot of tradespeople's fucking brains work like. And- Yeah ... a lot of us hate structure.

    [00:42:54] Like hate all that corporate shit, and that's kind of why, what I love about being a tradesman is [00:43:00] I don't have to deal with the corporations and all that sort of stuff. I, I, I really don't like that sort of stuff. And- 

    [00:43:05] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:43:06] Joel: I think a lot of my guys would feel the same way. And I'm like, I'm just, I'm- No, no, no.

    [00:43:09] It feels 

    [00:43:11] Hamish: good, but this- We're having a philosophical argument ... no, no, no. This is, this is what I'm saying. I think, you know, your team, maybe my team, but his team might love that. So I guess it's just working 

    [00:43:17] Matt: out- It's, it's, it's not, it's not for- Yeah ... like there's multiple layers of why you do something, do something.

    [00:43:21] Um, there's the reasons that you need, like I needed something checkpointed, 'cause ultimately if something does shit at the fan, what do you have to stand against? You can't stand against... And like we unfortunately, the wor- the world we live in now is de-risking. Mm. Like even though it's corporate, that's why it's corporate structure.

    [00:43:37] Yeah, yeah. Like you... So I, I also have a very good team. One, it allows us now, so we know n- now like of those 10 things we've seen, hey, there's a, our sites aren't clean, we need to improve it. So we can now focus on we have a specific task. If something was to ever go wrong and someone potentially didn't feel like they, they wanted to tell me something- 

    [00:43:57] Hamish: Mate, you lost me.

    [00:43:58] Sorry. 

    [00:43:59] Matt: But you can't, [00:44:00] like, but, but what's the issue with 

    [00:44:01] Hamish: it? I, I don't know. I'm just like, um- 

    [00:44:03] Andrew: I feel like my guys- Would it have to be more like goal orientated? Like, "Hey, if we can hit this structure over the next six weeks, we're gonna do a pub." Yeah. Yeah. And I, I know it's dumbing 

    [00:44:12] Matt: it down. So we have all, no, we have all that.

    [00:44:13] So that's, that's, this is just a complete separate wellness. 'Cause if I can also check in and go, "The last four months, this person's been down", I can also see- I think, 

    [00:44:24] Joel: I think that the, the, probably the big highlight out of this conversation is, with your own business, you can set the culture and the tone- Yeah

    [00:44:32] that you wanna set- Yeah Exactly ... to create the overall culture that you want. Yeah. Exactly. And I'm sure you've got a lot of reasons and you've- Yeah ... done a lot of thinking and, and, and thought as, as to why this is gonna work, and it probably, obviously is working. 

    [00:44:44] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:44:44] Joel: Right? I 

    [00:44:45] Hamish: agree. That's 

    [00:44:45] Joel: what I was saying.

    [00:44:46] Um- That's 

    [00:44:46] Hamish: what I was getting 

    [00:44:46] Joel: at. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, and I, and I think, you know, think- thinking about it, I- You know, your approach is, makes it more scalable. Yep. You know? My approach is not scalable, but [00:45:00] there's a lot of things in my business- Yeah, and that's why- ... that's not scalable ... I've 

    [00:45:01] Matt: got three new team members that just started, so that's, again- 

    [00:45:05] Joel: Yeah

    [00:45:05] Matt: another 

    [00:45:05] Joel: reason. And you, you do have to change things within your business as your team grows or evolves. Sometimes a new one or two people will come in, and you've got to change your approach because of those new people. Yeah. 

    [00:45:17] Matt: Yeah, like I don't sit down and do yearly reviews, which is a constant chat and- Mm.

    [00:45:20] Yeah ... update on how you, I think you're going. Like, I don't sit and have, "Oh, let's have your formal review for the year." I think that's, to me is- 

    [00:45:27] Hamish: I'm gonna, I'm gonna change the conversation for, for a second. Just what's the next big fish that you guys wanna catch from an influencer point of view? Have you got anyone that you're kind of, um, eyeing off?

    [00:45:38] Joel: Yeah. You. You 

    [00:45:42] Andrew: first. Um, I, I would like- Sexy land, wasn't it? ... some sort of like- 

    [00:45:48] Joel: Oh, no, that one's in the bag. Yeah. We can't talk about that on here. That's actually both of us doing it. Yeah, that's a whole other channel. 

    [00:45:55] Andrew: Probably s- like a, like a vehicle. 

    [00:45:58] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:45:59] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:45:59] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:45:59] Andrew: [00:46:00] Probably like- Like a Tesla ... yeah. So you- 

    [00:46:01] Hamish: Oh, God

    [00:46:02] you, you had a j- uh, you- 

    [00:46:04] Andrew: Yeah. Well, I, and I, I cut him out. It was a Jack Ute. 

    [00:46:07] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:46:08] Andrew: Um, but they, at the time, they didn't have trays and, and some other things, so it wasn't aligning with me. So we, we had plans to do more stuff in the future, and I, um, I nipped it in the bud. 

    [00:46:16] Hamish: Did you take that up to Fraser or something?

    [00:46:18] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my partner Georgia and I went up to, um, Fraser Island. She lived up in Hervey Bay for, I don't know, maybe 10 years. Yeah. And we went over there, and I was like, "I could hire one," or I could hit him up and be like, "Hey-" Yeah, sweet ... "You guys give me a brand-new ute. I'll go across there, and I'll get some footage, and it'll like," you know.

    [00:46:32] And we did that, but um, yeah, I inevitably said to him in the end like, "Hey, I don't think this is aligning with the way my business is going," and, you know, the, the ute I sort of wanna drive and the features, et cetera. "Thank you for everything, but I'm gonna..." Yeah. You know. So I think something else, and um, yeah, I think maybe a car is the next thing potentially.

    [00:46:50] Hamish: Ka, what about you, Joel? 

    [00:46:52] Joel: Um, so I've- Window company? It's 

    [00:46:55] Andrew: a houseboat. 

    [00:46:56] Joel: I'm kinda locked in with window companies. Christmas [00:47:00] would be pretty awkward if I locked in with a different window company. Um, so I have had a couple of chats with, uh, GM. 

    [00:47:08] Hamish: Wow. 

    [00:47:08] Joel: Yeah. Um, they've been informal chats, and I've appreciated just getting, getting in the door for the chat.

    [00:47:16] Um, and yeah, I'm probably gonna say something that's gonna hurt my chances at it, but whatever. Uh, I just, I just say- Are you gonna... Do you reach out to them? I, yeah, I did. When I was at, um ... So Team 18, which is the, they've got the DeWalt Super Car. Yeah, yeah. Um, when we went to the F1 in the corporate suite, there were some guys there for GM, and man, I just elevated pitch to this guy, and um- Why not?

    [00:47:37] You wasted- Yeah, I was, I just- You wasted- Why not? ... a 

    [00:47:37] Hamish: whole afternoon with that 

    [00:47:37] Joel: guy ... I just went for it. You're a hustler. And, um, I got his email address. It took me about seven rounds to get in the door. 

    [00:47:46] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:47:47] Joel: Um, and then I wrote a proposal up, and it just said, "Look, you know, man, I'm a car nut, man. I always have been."

    [00:47:53] What are you 

    [00:47:53] Hamish: going for? What, what, what are you, what are you shooting for? 

    [00:47:55] Joel: It's a Silverado. Yeah. Uh, not for ... No, I don't want it for free or, or something. [00:48:00] Like, I just, all I actually want is I wanna partner with them. Yeah. So I want some support. 

    [00:48:04] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:48:04] Joel: Um, and they've indicated a possible some support. 

    [00:48:09] Hamish: Cool. 

    [00:48:09] Joel: Um, which is, like, minor, and you know, they said, "Look-" We're a long-term thing.

    [00:48:16] We need to see who you are, that you actually are aligned with us. We're- Yeah ... you know, they're General Motors, man. Yeah. They're a huge company. 

    [00:48:22] Hamish: Just a small, little, you know, 

    [00:48:26] Joel: small little car company. But for me, like- Yeah ... I've been this kid that's been obsessed with Holden and Chevrolet my whole life. 

    [00:48:30] Hamish: Yeah.

    [00:48:31] Joel: Right? Um, aside from, like, all the work utes that were been Toyota, and I've been so disappointed with my Tundra. I'm just done with it. I'm out of it. I'm, I'm, like, ready to sell it. So what I wanna do is- Shouldn't you be saying you love it so someone will buy it? Nah. I'm- But I won't lie. Like, I won't lie. I don't love it.

    [00:48:48] Someone else will. Yeah. Yeah. So many people, so many guys go, "Oh, what do you think of the Tundra?" I'm like, "I'm selling it, man. I, I don't like it. It's missing two pots. I need a V8." Do you know what I mean? Like, that's just me, though. [00:49:00] Yeah. I've always been like that, and it was like this guilt thing that, you know, 'cause the Silverados, they're a bit more showy and- A 

    [00:49:09] Hamish: little bit more showy, yeah

    [00:49:10] Joel: you know, 

    [00:49:10] Hamish: but- You talking the big ones? You talking about the- 

    [00:49:12] Joel: No, I'm not getting a 2500. 

    [00:49:13] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. 

    [00:49:13] Joel: No, the smaller one. 

    [00:49:15] Hamish: Which is not small I've heard the 2500s are actually better on fuel, 'cause they're diesel. 

    [00:49:19] Joel: Look, they might be. Um, I, I actually don't really know a whole heap about the 2500. I've sort of- Yeah

    [00:49:24] actively avoided looking into it. Yeah. 'Cause I don't wanna go down the 

    [00:49:28] Hamish: garden path there. A couple of mates who got one. 

    [00:49:29] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:49:29] Hamish: Yeah. And one- They're sick ... one of, one of them had the smaller, is it- 

    [00:49:32] Joel: The 1500 ... 

    [00:49:33] Hamish: the 1500? Yeah. That's the 

    [00:49:34] Joel: petrol one, yeah. 

    [00:49:34] Hamish: Yeah. And he's like, "Nah, I, I switched from the 1500 and went to the 2500."

    [00:49:38] Yeah. I 

    [00:49:38] Joel: think a few guys have like, it's like a slippery slope. Oh, 100%. Right. You 

    [00:49:42] Matt: start and then, 

    [00:49:42] Joel: and then all of a sudden you're going to Big Dog Builds in Queensland and spending- Yeah ... 300 grand on it. Oh, yeah. Look at you. 

    [00:49:48] Hamish: Um, and, uh, before, before we sorta jumped on chatting with you, you were sorta saying there's a couple of sorta things in the, in the, in the pipeworks at the moment that you guys are working on.

    [00:49:58] Can we, can we talk about that? 

    [00:49:59] Joel: [00:50:00] Yeah, I reckon we can. 

    [00:50:01] Andrew: Great. 

    [00:50:01] Joel: Yeah. What do you reckon? 

    [00:50:04] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:50:04] Joel: Um- What do you wanna talk first? Well, well we're, we've been talking to DeWalt. 

    [00:50:08] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:50:08] Joel: And it sounds like it may happen, that we may be going to Bathurst. 

    [00:50:13] Hamish: Wow. 

    [00:50:14] Joel: Um- What's Bathurst? Oh, my God. Oh, you're leading 

    [00:50:17] Hamish: off 

    [00:50:18] Andrew: with 

    [00:50:19] Hamish: a 

    [00:50:20] Andrew: doozy.

    [00:50:21] Hamish: I, 

    [00:50:22] Joel: I couldn't help myself. I knew, I knew, I knew it would bait me, and I bit it anyway. 

    [00:50:27] Andrew: But there's, we're not just going to Bathurst. 

    [00:50:29] Joel: No, there's like a whole road trip sort of planned. It's not official, so we won't be... 

    [00:50:34] Andrew: No. 

    [00:50:35] Joel: It, it is now. It, it may, it may not e- eventuate, but again, DeWalt are pretty... They're, they're pretty good.

    [00:50:41] Yeah. Like, the, we feel like it's gonna happen. They 

    [00:50:43] Andrew: match that madness pretty well. 

    [00:50:44] Joel: Yeah. They, I think they just like the energy. And, um, oh, like, it's like the pilgrim- the tradie pilgrimage to Bathurst. So we kinda like... I'm like saying like, V8 Supercars used to be huge. 

    [00:50:56] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:50:57] Joel: And it kinda dropped off when Holden and Ford stopped making [00:51:00] cars here, and it's sorta picking back up again.

    [00:51:02] Yeah. And I'm like, we can be like the conduit for the trade community back to, you know, V8 Supercars. Yeah. Um, 'cause I think that's, like, as a, as a guy who's a car nut, like, I want it to be bigger than- 

    [00:51:14] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:51:14] Joel: you know, than it 

    [00:51:15] Andrew: currently is. And Sammy's a car nut as well. 

    [00:51:16] Joel: Yeah. So we're dragging Hoppo along.

    [00:51:18] Just along 

    [00:51:18] Andrew: for the ride. 

    [00:51:19] Joel: So it's gonna be the three of us on like- I hope they put you in an EV to drive up there ... on a road trip. Yeah. And then- See, 

    [00:51:24] Andrew: that's 

    [00:51:25] Hamish: it. I was gonna... Yeah, sweet. And just document the whole thing. 

    [00:51:26] Joel: Yeah. We're gonna, like, film the whole thing. We're gonna do stop-offs on the way. Big up.

    [00:51:29] We're camping at Bathurst. Um, that'll be like- Jolly ... so that's in October. That'll be sick. 

    [00:51:34] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [00:51:35] Joel: That'll be really sick. Oh. And then we're actually, we've been chatting about, and we've put together an idea for a, for a podcast for me, Sammy, and Hoppo to do. 

    [00:51:42] Hamish: Nice. 

    [00:51:43] Joel: But um, it's gonna be different. 

    [00:51:45] Hamish: What's it gonna be called?

    [00:51:46] The Unmindful Builder? The 

    [00:51:48] Andrew: Unfiltered Builder. The Unmindful Builder, yeah. Yeah. Is what you just said. 

    [00:51:52] Joel: No, 

    [00:51:52] Andrew: what did- What's the name gonna be? No, 

    [00:51:53] Joel: we can say... You, you tell them what it's called. 

    [00:51:55] Andrew: Between Two Jobs. It's called. So it's- The Soon Show ... it's gonna be a bit [00:52:00] more casual. There's enough nerdy builders podcasts- Yeah

    [00:52:02] as it is. No, it's just- Boom. Just- Anyway, let's move on. Um, just sort of the, the bit more of the casual chats. Yeah. Um, you know, they're in their work gear. It's, it's 

    [00:52:19] Joel: It's the same thing that we, that you see at Office now, right? Like, as in there's no bullshit, we just are who we are. Yeah. Yeah. And feel like, like what you guys are doing is awesome, and we actually really, really rate what you guys are doing for the industry.

    [00:52:32] But it's as a builder and, and it's not just as a builder, it's at that other, like- Yeah ... top end of, like- And that's our struggle ... building science and stuff. Yeah. Whereas, like who's doing it for tradies, man? Like there's, there's- More of a day to day awareness ... there's comedians, there's comedians doing shit that we relate to.

    [00:52:45] Yeah. 

    [00:52:46] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:52:46] Joel: But like where's the, where's the knockabout blokes that are just talking about shit that's- Just a good ol' blokes ... average. 'Cause it's for me, I don't really identify as a builder much anymore, man. I'm more, I'm just like a chippy. 

    [00:52:57] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:52:58] Joel: You know? And that's kind of my personality, the way [00:53:00] I approach things.

    [00:53:01] And if we can represent trades or like have a chat that trades relate to, great. 

    [00:53:07] Matt: Is, is it hard with Sam being so far away to, to record? 

    [00:53:11] Andrew: Uh, well it's sort of more like you were saying, we'll try and do like, all right, film three episodes. Like he's more than open to travel. 

    [00:53:16] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:53:16] Andrew: Like his next collab will be with like a hotel, I reckon.

    [00:53:20] Yeah. Some real estate will probably give him a apartment in Melbourne. He kills it 

    [00:53:23] Joel: though. He's so good. 

    [00:53:24] Andrew: He's so handy. He just makes time. 

    [00:53:26] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:53:26] Andrew: He just makes time to do things and get down. I, 

    [00:53:27] Hamish: I think thinking about having met all of you and know all of you reasonably well through social media, I think it'll, it'll appeal to a big audience.

    [00:53:35] That's cool. And I think it'll be really good. And I think the good thing about it, like we know we appeal to a certain segment of the market. 

    [00:53:40] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:53:41] Hamish: And that's who we're targeting. But we've 

    [00:53:42] Matt: been talking exactly, literally the same thing about how do we appeal to more tradies, because we understand that like- 

    [00:53:46] Hamish: Yeah.

    [00:53:46] But I also feel like, I think, I think that's a good thing to do, and I think getting you guys on, like just having a different conversation's always good. But I think we set out to do- Yeah ... you know, with a goal of who our target market was. Mm. And I think you guys coming on and doing what, what you want to do is awesome [00:54:00] as well.

    [00:54:00] Yeah. I 

    [00:54:00] Andrew: think different dynamics. It's really worked online so far, but you know. 

    [00:54:03] Joel: Yeah. It w- that's probably what happened as well. We catch up and it's just fucking madness. Yeah. Like, you know, and we have a great time anyway. 

    [00:54:10] Hamish: And would it be the th- just the three of you or do you get 

    [00:54:12] Joel: guests? Pretty much.

    [00:54:12] Yeah, okay. We, we get a guest in here and there. Yeah. Like, so we had this idea, what w- what were we gonna call it? The, um, Mad Dog of the Month. 

    [00:54:20] Andrew: Oh yeah. 

    [00:54:20] Joel: It's, yeah. A mon- monthly Mad Dog. Monthly Mad 

    [00:54:22] Andrew: Dog. 

    [00:54:22] Hamish: Monthly Mad 

    [00:54:23] Joel: Dog, yeah. So, you know, we might give them something or we might ask someone on that we think is really interesting or whatever, like just from a real trade perspective.

    [00:54:31] Yeah. Um, but it's not about like selling products. Yeah. It's not about, um- It's your creative side 

    [00:54:38] Andrew: of things. Yeah. Chewing, chewing the fat and, you know, yeah. And our experience and it's like when we go to events, we're like the wall. They see us, the three of us, like the three stooges Yeah ... just around and like people just, they just love it.

    [00:54:47] Yeah. So it's, yeah, different dynamics, completely different backgrounds, but you know, the same core. Mm. Um, and it just works really well and we just sit there and talk for fucking hours and- 

    [00:54:57] Hamish: And do you know what? Fuck it, you gotta find out [00:55:00] if 

    [00:55:00] Andrew: it works. Exactly. 

    [00:55:00] Joel: Yeah, man. Yeah. Like, you know, it's the same thing.

    [00:55:02] Like, you know- Yeah ... just f- if it doesn't fucking work, like the worst that can happen is it's like irrelevant to people. Like- Mm ... people just go, "Meh." 

    [00:55:09] Hamish: And who cares? 

    [00:55:10] Joel: Yeah. Whatever. Doesn't matter. 

    [00:55:11] Hamish: Um- Or, or it might be amazing, and it might fucking take off. And 

    [00:55:14] Andrew: we al- we all said that about ourselves at the start of, you know, starting our Instagram journeys and putting ourselves out there, like, "Well, who really cares?"

    [00:55:19] Yeah. Turns out fucking heaps of people care. 

    [00:55:21] Joel: Yeah, the worst, the worst thing, I actually thought the worst thing that could happen, the worst, uh, would be, like, all this hate. But- The hate's not all that bad. It's when it bombs, when it does nothing, that's kind of embarrassing ... the hate's loud though. It's 1% of people and they're just loud.

    [00:55:37] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:55:37] Joel: The 

    [00:55:37] Hamish: re- 99% of people- But it's also great for the algorithm as well. 

    [00:55:38] Joel: Yeah 

    [00:55:39] Hamish: When people start 

    [00:55:39] Joel: having- Do you guys get much, like, hate? I get a 

    [00:55:42] Matt: fair 

    [00:55:42] Joel: bit. Yeah? And like, 

    [00:55:43] Matt: I get, I actually get a lot. Yeah. 

    [00:55:44] Joel: But 

    [00:55:44] Matt: I fucking love it. I 

    [00:55:45] Joel: was going 

    [00:55:46] Matt: to say, you love it. Oh. You 

    [00:55:47] Joel: love it. 

    [00:55:48] Matt: I, I just like, I just 

    [00:55:48] Joel: f- 

    [00:55:50] Matt: like, my favorite question as well is why?

    [00:55:52] When they're like, "Oh, that won't work." I just ask why, and then they'll give me... I'll be like... They'll answer back and have a crack at something we've done. I'll be like, "You didn't answer your own question, but-" I love that "... do [00:56:00] you want to then answer why that won't work?" Yeah. And they'll just usually disappear or they'll give- Yeah

    [00:56:04] a crappy answer, and then I'll rebut it, and then they'll be like, "No, that's not right." And I'm like, and then I just go to, there's a tool called Google. Type it in. 

    [00:56:12] Joel: Yeah. I'll tell you what, if one of these guys ever comment on something that I've done, I've really got to think about my response because I- I'm, I'm gonna delete my post

    [00:56:17] I like, I know I will get- I'm gonna fucking 

    [00:56:18] Matt: delete my post. Let me tell you ... they will, they will destroy Nesly just every time. He just does- You, 

    [00:56:24] Hamish: you actually never, you never answered my question. Did you move your toilet? 

    [00:56:27] Joel: No, 

    [00:56:27] Hamish: I didn't. 

    [00:56:28] Matt: No, but like, I, I'm not a person... I would, I, I could never think of anything worse than calling you out on something.

    [00:56:34] Like, I actually have done it once when the steel framing industry were trying to say how the timber, the material was sustainable. I was like, "Fuck off, it's not." But I wouldn't, I would never sit there and go, "That's a stupid way of doing it." Or d- if I didn't like something, I'd go, I'd message you on the side.

    [00:56:48] I would never, ever put it- Oh, 

    [00:56:49] Joel: no. I've publicly, publicly commented on stuff that I thought was putrid. Like, like- 

    [00:56:54] Matt: Yeah, but it's not towards probably a... Yeah. 

    [00:56:56] Joel: Like putrid craftsmanship or workmanship. Y- yeah. I'm like, that's disgusting. 

    [00:56:59] Matt: [00:57:00] Yeah, but- 

    [00:57:01] Joel: You know, it's hard ... well, I, it's only when, like, someone's proud of something.

    [00:57:03] I'm like, how are you fucking proud of that? Yeah, like the, like 

    [00:57:06] Hamish: the toilet. Yeah. 

    [00:57:08] Andrew: That's why that was a Joel... He'll, you got to use Joel's toilet. He'll call out before you head in there. 

    [00:57:11] Hamish: Sorry. 

    [00:57:13] Joel: He'll, he'll- It's hard to think of- I'm just gonna go crawl 

    [00:57:13] Andrew: under your table. Like, I don't want to make someone's day feel like shit.

    [00:57:16] Hamish: It's one thing, Joel. One thing of how many posts that you do that I'm fucking... Yeah, I know. And that's 

    [00:57:21] Andrew: all 

    [00:57:21] Hamish: I've got 

    [00:57:21] Joel: to hold onto. But you know what? There's a few other people that are still on me about it. Okay. I'm like, I'll, I'll put something and they'll be like, someone will say, like, "How about that toilet?"

    [00:57:30] Andrew: I'm like, "Fuck." You've also made an engagement piece about it now, though, haven't you? So it's like you, it's, you know, you're known for it. It's such a thing. So I, I flipped a barrow years ago after telling the cl- client sent to me. Oh, yeah. Like, he was at this, like, Middle Eastern client, very strict on. He's like, "Don't get it on my back water."

    [00:57:43] I was like, "Mate, it's not my first rodeo." And he's got it on the fucking camera. I've clipped the front edge of the barrow going down this ramp, and I've flipped it, and I've ridden the barrow- ... over it. And it went fuck- And I was like, I was so nervous, and I was like, "I've got to call my... I fucked up. I've got to call it out."

    [00:57:58] I said, "Hey," um, [00:58:00] I can't remember his name, um, "jump on your back left-hand camera, 2:15 PM today. I'm sorry." Can I have the video too? He wrote back, he wrote back, "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Can I post on Facebook?" He wrote back. You go, "

    [00:58:15] Hamish: Yes, if I can have the footage." 

    [00:58:16] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And he said, and it was the- Tag me

    [00:58:18] best icebreaker ever, and it just... And I was scared to put it on my mag. He goes, "It's a fucking, just call yourself." And that was a real big one I called myself out because I look ridiculous. I'm like- Earn yourself a six-pack ... popped off implant. Yeah. Yeah. And I put it up there and it went crazy. Yeah. And I get requests for it now off people, "Hey, it's that time of year again."

    [00:58:33] But the, you know- I 

    [00:58:34] Hamish: re- you posted not recently, not, not, not too long ago, did you? 

    [00:58:36] Andrew: Oh, it's probably a year ago now. Yeah, I, I remember I'm probably due 

    [00:58:39] Hamish: for another one. I remember it, yeah. 

    [00:58:39] Andrew: But, oh, 

    [00:58:40] Matt: fuck. But the, I think the negative comment in the section, I don't know, I just feel like people have too much time on their hands.

    [00:58:47] And, uh, what I don't like is when they hide behind a profile. That's actually my pet- Oh, dude, that sets me ... that, that, that- No, I just don't get it ... if you, if you, if it was from your profile, cool, we just have a civil conversation. If it's from you and a burner account, fuck you. Yeah, 

    [00:58:58] Hamish: yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:58:59] Matt: You get [00:59:00] a few of p- Yeah

    [00:59:00] few people like that. And then we had, we, we had a troll p- going at both of us, was it last year? That like just- Yeah, 

    [00:59:06] Hamish: there's been 

    [00:59:06] Matt: a couple ... between. 

    [00:59:06] Hamish: I'm just like, what? Just, I'm just- Well, yeah ... I'm just like, I I... Oh, fuck, I almost picked the scab that fell. Um, yeah, I just, I, I try not to let it get to me. I stopped- Yeah, go make some real friends

    [00:59:18] I stopped, I stopped being on Facebook because Facebook's just so toxic. 

    [00:59:22] Matt: Wow. 

    [00:59:22] Joel: Yeah. 

    [00:59:22] Matt: It's just like, ugh. Get out of your, get out of your basement and stop masturbating and go live a life. Do 

    [00:59:26] Hamish: we-

    [00:59:29] have

    [00:59:35] Matt: a Mindful Moment? On that note. So Mindful Moment sponsored by MEGT, Australia's largest apprenticeship experts. Hamish, you've got one today. Oh. 

    [00:59:42] Hamish: So you guys are both social media influencers, which is d- And, and do you call yourself that? 

    [00:59:47] Andrew: No, I- Nah. Okay. That's why I had construction creator, con- construction content creator I try and say.

    [00:59:53] Yeah, call 

    [00:59:53] Hamish: it whatever the fuck 

    [00:59:53] Andrew: you want. You guys are- Yeah. I know, 

    [00:59:54] Hamish: influ- yeah ... you're, you're influencers. Influencers. How, how do you, like, any, any advice for someone wanting to, [01:00:00] to do it? 'Cause it, it's, like the barriers of entry for doing it- It's time-consuming ... are l- like almost zero. Anyone can become an influencer.

    [01:00:05] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [01:00:06] Hamish: Like, how do you guys find the time? What's worked for you guys? Um- 

    [01:00:10] Andrew: I'll tell you what hasn't worked for me. 

    [01:00:11] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:00:11] Andrew: Trying to be someone I'm not. 

    [01:00:13] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:00:13] Andrew: Look at someone else online and go like, "Hey, that really works for them. I'll try and talk like that person or do this." Like, it's, it's so hard. Yeah.

    [01:00:19] It's so unnatural, and people see right through it, and it's- Mm ... it's just crap. 

    [01:00:22] Hamish: And that's actually something that I touched on from the very beginning. What's so relatable for both of you guys is that you are just who you are. 

    [01:00:28] Andrew: Mm. 

    [01:00:28] Hamish: Yeah. And nothing e- I mean, Matt does a really good job of being who he is as well.

    [01:00:32] Joel: Yeah, I think it's be- An outsp- an 

    [01:00:33] Hamish: outspoken little 

    [01:00:33] Joel: arsehole. 

    [01:00:34] Hamish: Unashamedly. It's good. 

    [01:00:35] Joel: Super consistent. 

    [01:00:36] Hamish: Yeah. And that's good because people know what they're gonna get- Yeah ... like when they, when they, when they jump on. I feel like I'm a little bit more conservative, but I think it's funny. I'm like Jackie O, he's Karl Stefanovic.

    [01:00:46] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:00:47] Andrew: Well, if, if you wanna go- Well, you 

    [01:00:49] Matt: have to have an opinion. That's one thing. 

    [01:00:50] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [01:00:51] Matt: You have to have an opinion. 

    [01:00:51] Andrew: Yeah. And don't just like... I- if, like, the feedback I got from some companies early on is I would call out, "Hey, I love these shorts. I love [01:01:00] these. This pocket, this pocket, but this one's too shallow for my roll and that shits me."

    [01:01:03] And people would be like, "Oh, hey, that's a, that's a point, actually. I don't need that roller pocket. That's useful for this." And I'd be like, "Sorry, I just had to say it how it is." And they go, "It's our best feedback we've ever had." Yeah. "We've just sold X amount." Like- 

    [01:01:13] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [01:01:13] Andrew: don't try and beat around the bush.

    [01:01:14] Say it how it is. Yeah. You know? 

    [01:01:16] Hamish: And when you are influencing, so say you're doing a DeWalt thing, do you actually say, "Oh, now I'm with the DeWalt, fucking doo, doo, doo, doo"? 

    [01:01:23] Joel: Nah. 

    [01:01:24] Hamish: Or do you just use it? 

    [01:01:25] Joel: I just did one for Tax Time for them. Hoppo's already done one. Sammy's done one. I did one. I tried to do it multiple different times, and then I ended up just telling people, like, what I actually thought.

    [01:01:34] I was like, "Listen, you've got, like, very few levers to pull for the end of the financial year." Go buy tools. Like, and, and then I said, "These are the tools that I'd buy 'cause it'll turn any job site into a joinery shop-" Perfect ... basically. Yeah. And then it sort of flowed and it worked and- Yeah ... but I honest- I reckon my biggest advice to people...

    [01:01:53] It's fucking gone out of my head now. I did, I did this with you, remember? I had something and I'm like- ... this is like this big important thing- Just don't do [01:02:00] it ... 

    [01:02:00] Hamish: and it just went fucking out. Joel's biggest advice is to write everything down. 

    [01:02:02] Joel: Yeah. 

    [01:02:03] Andrew: Those TaxTime ones, though, I, um, my most successful one was I got so distracted in it all by playing with the tools that I was like, "I c- I can't make any of this script," and I just took a screenshot of it and put it up and said, "Hey, got distracted.

    [01:02:15] It's me holding up the mini demo saw." 

    [01:02:17] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:02:17] Andrew: Bang, sale. Bang, sale. I'm like, "Yeah, righto." So they can buy through your website? Just be yourself. Yeah, yeah. No, 

    [01:02:20] Hamish: they'll, 

    [01:02:23] Andrew: they'll hit us up. They'll like- Yeah ... like, "Hey, who should we reach out to?" No. And I'll- Yeah ... I'll send them around- Yeah, okay ... and be like, "Hey," and they'll always look at it.

    [01:02:28] No, 'cause you might 

    [01:02:28] Joel: not- I've 

    [01:02:28] Hamish: got a- You, you might... Yeah, go ... 

    [01:02:30] Joel: don't monetize too early. 

    [01:02:31] Hamish: Yeah. Oh, yes. 

    [01:02:33] Joel: Big time. Do not monetize too early. I make fucking no- nothing on Instagram compared to what it, the time and effort it costs me. 

    [01:02:40] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [01:02:41] Joel: Right? But I'm more interested in what it's gonna do- Relationships ... like, for my relationships and for- Yeah

    [01:02:47] my overall reputation, right? And, like, I'm starting to think now, "Shit, maybe I can help the industry slightly." Like- Mm. You know, maybe. I don't know. You already are, though. 

    [01:02:55] Hamish: Yeah. I think you 

    [01:02:56] Joel: are. Yeah. Oh, thanks. I think, 

    [01:02:58] Hamish: I mean, I think you both are, 'cause I feel that you're [01:03:00] kind of, you're, you're bringing passion back to an industry which potentially people are exiting.

    [01:03:04] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [01:03:05] Joel: Yeah. And I think that's wonderful. Well, I think from what people see, like for every brand deal you might see that I do, there's three or four that I've said no to. 

    [01:03:11] Andrew: Yeah. 

    [01:03:12] Joel: Like, and he'd be worse, way worse. Yeah. I 

    [01:03:14] Andrew: say no to a lot. Yeah, I've 

    [01:03:15] Joel: changed my mind 

    [01:03:15] Andrew: on 

    [01:03:15] Joel: it this year. Yeah. 

    [01:03:16] Andrew: I, 

    [01:03:16] Joel: I, um, yeah. I've just... I'm like, "I've got the guys that I work with," and that's kinda it.

    [01:03:21] Andrew: Mm. 

    [01:03:21] Joel: And even there's some other little ones that I've done, I'm like, "Nah, won't do that again." And, and don't 

    [01:03:25] Andrew: be afraid to say to someone too, like, "Hey, you wanna send this stuff out? Great. Send it to me. I'm gonna try it for a month." Yeah. "See if I like it. If I don't like it, you know, maybe look for someone else."

    [01:03:34] Yeah. "It might not be best suited for me," but, you know, 'cause then you start, people don't realize is like, you say like, "Oh, buy those shorts, they're the best." People might save up for three months to buy them, and then by the week they're fucked and they're like- Money goes quickly ... then they look at you.

    [01:03:45] Like 

    [01:03:45] Hamish: Well, I, I, I've got, I, one, one time I've been sent something, I've said yes to something and they're like, "Yeah, great, this is what you gotta do," and I, I, I'm not even gonna say what the thing is. I, I put it on and I started using it and I'm like, "This is shit." 

    [01:03:59] Matt: Mm. [01:04:00] 

    [01:04:00] Hamish: So it's been sitting in my drawer ever since.

    [01:04:01] I reckon I know 

    [01:04:03] Andrew: what it is. Yeah. 

    [01:04:04] Hamish: And I'm like- I know what it is, yeah ... I'm like, "I'm not... This is, this is shit. I'm not, I'm not putting my name to this." I said, I s- 

    [01:04:07] Joel: that was one of the ones I said no to. 

    [01:04:09] Hamish: Yeah, I'm not putting my name to this. So. 

    [01:04:11] Andrew: See, I, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And I've got, I have different views on it, which is where it's great for me.

    [01:04:17] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:04:17] Andrew: Um, but yeah, I've had, definitely had mixed things. 

    [01:04:20] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's, I, I just think, you know- I can't pretend. 

    [01:04:25] Hamish: Yes. 

    [01:04:26] Joel: You know? I like you. I can't l- like, I'm, I'm shit at, I'm shit at lying. You're not, you're not an actor. And I'm, I'm not a very good actor. So I just- It stands out to the audience

    [01:04:32] like, the reason why I pushed Wild, it's like I fucking love their stuff. Mm. Yeah. Like, it's mad. It's 

    [01:04:37] Hamish: easy when you... It's easy when- Well, that's something else with Pro 

    [01:04:39] Joel: Tour ... I love tools though. 

    [01:04:39] Hamish: Yeah, exactly. The 

    [01:04:40] Matt: tools. Like, we, we, we haven't pushed anything, like, with, with... So C.R. Kennedy was the same. 

    [01:04:44] Hamish: Yeah.

    [01:04:44] Matt: MAGT. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we kind of- Yeah ... have not monetized 

    [01:04:47] Hamish: it. You gotta, you gotta believe in, you gotta believe in- Yeah ... the brands 

    [01:04:50] Joel: and- Yeah ... and 

    [01:04:50] Hamish: who you're aligning 

    [01:04:51] Joel: with. I've had car companies approach me and I'm like, "Nah, man." Like... 

    [01:04:54] Hamish: BYD. 

    [01:04:55] Joel: I'm... Well, no, it was actually KMG, like the, um, SsangYong Musso Ute. Oh. Oh, [01:05:00] yeah.

    [01:05:00] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:05:01] Joel: Right? And it looked cool and everything. I'm like, "Look- It's not for you ... everyone knows there's one brand of ute that my guys drive. Yeah. It's Toyota. 

    [01:05:09] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:05:09] Joel: And outside of that, like, it's either Toyota or Chevrolet for me, man. Yeah. I've been Holden my whole life, aside from that Toyota. 

    [01:05:16] Hamish: I could not take you seriously if I saw you driving around in a Toyota.

    [01:05:19] No. Not saying they're a bad car. I feel like it would kill my brand. That's what it's 

    [01:05:21] Joel: not. 

    [01:05:21] Matt: Yeah. Like- Can you... If you do get an electric company, can you just take it up for me, for my sake? Just so I see you driving around in it. Absolutely fucking not. It'd 

    [01:05:27] Hamish: be quick. You should take a Shark for a drive. It's 

    [01:05:30] Matt: quick.

    [01:05:30] Nope. I would love it if Toyota are like, "Oh, we've got a-" I do, 

    [01:05:34] Hamish: I do miss my- "... an electric ute. Can you drive this one around?" I do miss my 79. Like, I turn... I, I... Every morning- Oh, they're the best ... every morning, every morning I press the little red button in my Shark and it just goes zshh. 

    [01:05:44] Matt: How good 

    [01:05:44] Hamish: is- 

    [01:05:44] Matt: And that's it

    [01:05:44] nice and quiet. 79's the opposite. Grr. 

    [01:05:48] Hamish: I used to, I used to turn it on... I'm gonna digress in a bit. I used to turn it on, close the door and walk around and just listen to it. 

    [01:05:54] Joel: Mate, I had an- Beautiful ... off its head 79, and I reckon I had my shoulder surgery because I drove the fucking th- [01:06:00] thing. It completely cooked me, mate.

    [01:06:03] It screwed my back, my shoulder. Like, you're just driving like this and... 

    [01:06:07] Hamish: Yeah, but do you know what? How fucking cool were you- Yeah. ... when you were driving past- High school ... in that? Yeah. High school yeah. And everyone's like this. 

    [01:06:13] Matt: Oh, yeah. 

    [01:06:14] Hamish: I don't... No one looks at my Shark when I drive past anymore. In fact, I drive past another Shark owner and I reckon we're, like, turning our heads.

    [01:06:19] Yeah. Like, "Grr." Totally, totally 

    [01:06:21] Andrew: ignoring each other.

    [01:06:24] Hamish: That's funny. Oh. Um. I 

    [01:06:25] Andrew: mean, you spoke to each other the whole time at Pilates anyways. Yeah.

    [01:06:31] Hamish: Both walk... We'll go to Pilates and look at each other 

    [01:06:31] Matt: like, "

    [01:06:32] Hamish: Fuck." 

    [01:06:33] Matt: Pilates is great. 

    [01:06:34] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [01:06:34] Matt: Hey, guys. Thank you for coming on. 

    [01:06:36] Hamish: Um- Yeah. It was a- I like that we had, like, zero agenda here and it was a good conversation. Yeah, it was 

    [01:06:40] Joel: cool. It went around all over the place. 

    [01:06:42] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. What were you expecting? 

    [01:06:44] Joel: I don't know.

    [01:06:45] Hamish: And we don't even have camera footage. The camera kept turning off. Uh, awesome, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers. Thanks, 

    [01:06:50] Joel: guys. [01:07:00] Cheers.

Matthew Carland
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The Day I Almost Quit Building for Good