The Day I Almost Quit Building for Good

Written By Matthew Carland

I’ve always had a big fear of failure.”

James Turner shared that with a kind of honesty that catches you off guard. It wasn’t a throwaway line. You could hear the vulnerability in it.

And if you’ve ever tried to run a building business while still levelling up your craft, you’ll get it. The fear isn’t only about getting something wrong. It’s about getting it wrong in public, with staff relying on you, clients watching and cashflow that doesn’t pause while you wait to feel ready.

James didn’t start J Turner Constructions with a big master plan. He started because things shifted, and backing himself became the next step.

He tore his ACL playing footy, his boss couldn’t keep him employed, and suddenly the path he thought he was on disappeared. He’d already booked an eight or nine-week Europe trip with his wife, so he went. Came home. Got his subbie licence. Did his builder’s course. Took the plunge in 2017.

And then did what most builders do in the early years. Whatever work was available.

Small decks. Small renos. Bigger renos. Extensions. First new home in 2018. Then it just kept going.

But the part James is honest about is the bit that usually gets skipped.

The business can be “working” and you can still be cooked.

When you’re close to pulling the pin

James said it straight: he nearly threw in the towel.

Two and a bit years ago it was a combination of things stacking up. Not knowing how to estimate properly. Not knowing how to manage people effectively. COVID hitting and losing a heap of money. Waking up early, walking the streets to clear his head, and thinking through how he was going to tell his staff and clients he was done.

Then he listened to a podcast about how to close down a construction business.

He realised it would take at least a couple of years to close it down properly.

So he and his wife had a proper chat and decided to give it one more crack.

The turning point wasn’t a building course

James did an eight or nine-week men’s course called Rising Kings.

Not construction. Not estimating. Not quoting.

The course was focused on building structure and personal development.

He didn’t resonate with everything in the course, but the big shift was getting back into exercise and looking after his body.

He’d come from an AFL background. Fitness used to be built into his life. Then it dropped off and that’s where he noticed his headspace and mental state shift.

He also had a realisation a lot of business owners hit in their 30s and 40s.

Alcohol isn’t worth the recovery time.

James’ version was simple: he can enjoy an espresso martini with his wife, but the next day he’s asking how anyone functions after a big night. As a business owner, you can’t lose three or four days and pretend it doesn’t cost you.

Finding a reason to care about building again

James said he’d reached a point where he didn’t have much direction and wasn’t passionate about building.

Then he came across Zara D’Cotta’s course “The Healthy Home”

What hooked him wasn’t a label or a certification. It was looking at the home holistically. Materials. Carpets. Dust. Mould. The health impact of the environment you live in.

He shared a very real example. Their son had repeated ear infections and burst both eardrums. James started asking, “What’s going on with our house?”

That led to ripping carpet out of the bedroom, leaving the concrete floor, and adding portable air filtration.

And it made a difference.

The business shift: systems, support, and a new direction

Around the same time, James got a call from Kyle at Future Builder.

He was right on the borderline of signing up with another well-known coaching program, but Future Builder hit the gap he’d been looking for: training, assets, and the ability to white label documentation and processes.

He jumped on a group Zoom the next day, got off the call, and told his admin: “I’ve found what I need.”

That was the catalyst.

And it’s also where he started learning about Passive House and high-performance building properly.

Two and a half years ago, he hadn’t even heard the term.

Marketing vs sales (and why builders get stuck)

A big chunk of the conversation is about the difference between looking good online and actually winning the right clients.

James had posted a video showing the contrast between his site and a volume builder next door. No site fences. No bin. Rubbish everywhere. He covered the business name, didn’t throw anyone under the bus, but the point landed.

He got more engagement than he’d had in ages.

Matt’s reminder was simple: don’t expect to post today and get 50 calls. It’s brand awareness. People might follow you for a year before they reach out.

And then the bigger lesson.

If your content only appeals to other tradies, it’s not doing the job.

Matt called out the “expensive videographer” trap: paying thousands for a slow-motion nail shot that gets comments like “That looks sick, bro” but doesn’t help a consumer decide to hire you.

The builders doing well are in front of the camera. Face to camera. Conversational. Educational.

People buy from people.

The real fear: not the camera, the transition

James’ bigger fear isn’t marketing.

It’s getting from “where we are now” to “the level we want to be” without doing more harm than good.

He’s done his Passive House course and just needs to sit the exam, but he’s clear-eyed about it: you don’t do the course and suddenly know everything.

It’s going back to school.

Learning by repetition.

Learning by mistakes and leaning on the support network around you.

Hamish and Matt’s advice was to filter the noise and work back to basics.

What is Passive House?

What are the five principles?

What do you need to change in your business to transition?

Then, learn how to sell it like a human.

Not by leading with acronyms.

By starting with why.

Health. Comfort. Durability. Resilience.

And then, once the client cares, you can explain the “how.”

James’ story is a good reminder that the pivot usually isn’t one clean decision. It’s a stack of moments: an injury, a career detour, a business that nearly breaks you, and then one more crack because you’re not ready to be done. The shift comes when you stop chasing the version of success that looks good and start building the version that actually works: structure, support, better systems, and a clearer reason to care about the work. And if you’re trying to move into high-performance building, the answer isn’t to copy the loudest person online. It’s to learn the basics, back it up on site, and tell the story as you go. People don’t buy Passive House. They buy what it gives them.

LINKS:

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  • [00:00:00] Hamish: Thanks everyone for joining us again. We're coming from the Pro Clima Built to Last studio, the mobile. In fact, it's always a mobile Pro 

    [00:00:10] Matt: Clima Built to Last studio. Yeah, and we're with ClimaSure this week in Adelaide. Yep. Or this, for one night. We were there last night. But we're 

    [00:00:15] Hamish: also s- but we're also surrounded right now, encased in the Pro Clima products in Jackson from Duraux's certified passive house, uh, display home- All right

    [00:00:24] here in Mount Barker. 

    [00:00:25] Matt: I don't know if you know this, Ham, but I live in a passive house, and then going from the night before- Hey, 

    [00:00:30] Hamish: no, no, hang on. Wait a minute. You live in 

    [00:00:34] Matt: a passive house? We've never talked about it. So funnily enough, last night, I think I told you this in the car, 'cause I'm, I'm used to such stable temperatures overnight now, I didn't have a doona on and I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, "Fuck, it's cold."

    [00:00:45] Completely- Forgot 

    [00:00:47] Hamish: Well, we, we're staying in Han- Handoff last night- Yeah ... and, uh, that's pretty much like the, the climate that I'm used to in Warrandyte. So- Yeah ... last night was just perfect for me. 

    [00:00:56] Matt: Had a nice hot shower though. That was nice. 

    [00:00:58] Hamish: Uh, so today we are joined [00:01:00] by James Turner from JT Construction.

    [00:01:03] Is that 

    [00:01:03] Matt: right? How'd you come up with your business name? 

    [00:01:06] James: I don't know. It was a bit of a struggle, wasn't it? 

    [00:01:07] Hamish: Yeah. You guys should probably have a chat, because I wonder how you- That's what I wanted to... That was my, 

    [00:01:10] Matt: that was my first question. 

    [00:01:11] James: It was funny. My old m- my old boss, his was DNA Hamilton Construction, so I think I've just rolled with just the name.

    [00:01:19] Hamish: I actually don't know if I've e- ever talked about this, but way back when, 20 odd years ago- ... I started a little sole trader carpentry company. It was called HS White Carpentry. So, you know- 

    [00:01:31] James: Ship came in ... 

    [00:01:32] Hamish: I haven't always been, I haven't always been Sanctum Homes, and I- 

    [00:01:34] Matt: Is it still registered? 

    [00:01:35] Hamish: Uh, you know, I still get phone calls from- It's his bucket 

    [00:01:37] Matt: company, 

    [00:01:37] Hamish: I think

    [00:01:37] random marketing people, and they're like, "Hello. Is this Hamish from HS White Carpentry?" I'm like, "What?" 

    [00:01:43] Matt: I was like- Is it from High Pages? Would you like to sign up? 

    [00:01:45] Hamish: Probably High Pages. 

    [00:01:46] Matt: I've asked them to take me off their call list a million times, and they still refuse to. 

    [00:01:50] Hamish: So James joining us today, uh, so I, uh, James and I have been crossed paths a number of times in the last few years.

    [00:01:58] Were you in the Life Build for a second? [00:02:00] 

    [00:02:00] James: No, I was actually right on the borderline of joining up- 

    [00:02:03] Matt: Yeah ... when Kyle rang me. 

    [00:02:03] Hamish: Yep, that's right. So since then Future Builder, but we, I reckon we've talked prior to that, uh, on social media. But anyway- I think so, yeah ... I guess we've had, like, this parasocial relationship for the past three or four years.

    [00:02:15] Um, James, do you wanna just introduce yourself, uh, to our listeners, and then we'll get stuck in? 

    [00:02:21] James: Yep. Um, obviously, yeah, James, JT Turner Constructions. Uh, been in business probably coming up almost nine years now. Um, I'm a carpenter by trade, and never really had any real desire to start my own business.

    [00:02:36] The plan was always to sort of take over my, my old employer's business. Um, and then playing footy, tore my ACL, and that was sort of a bit of a moment where my boss just said, "I can't have you employed anymore. You're gonna have to be a subbie." So that sort of got me thinking. Um, went away on a bit of an overseas trip and came back and decided to start my own business from then on.

    [00:02:59] [00:03:00] Um, and it just went from there. I sort of subbied to him for a little while and then took the plunge, I think, back in 2017. 

    [00:03:06] Matt: So business was always the... Running a business was always a goal, just you had envisioned maybe taking over someone else's- 

    [00:03:14] James: Yeah, I think it was just, that was just always the talk that I was just gonna keep working for him.

    [00:03:18] He had a young son, um, that was sort of, I guess, coming up to the age where he was gonna start an apprenticeship and the plan was that I would take him through and that was just always the thought, that I would just sort of work for him and whether or not I'd eventually take over his business. Um- 

    [00:03:34] Matt: Is he still operating?

    [00:03:35] James: He is, yes. I've bumped him, bump into him every now and then. He's still going, just doing small little renos and, um, saw him, I think, late last year and he wanted to send me a project 'cause he was looking to, to quieten down but, um, I think he's decided to take it on, so he's still going. 

    [00:03:50] Hamish: And, um, what kind of work do you guys do and in which area?

    [00:03:55] James: So we're based down on the Fleurieu Peninsula. 

    [00:03:57] Hamish: Oh, peninsula. 

    [00:03:58] James: Uh, we do custom [00:04:00] homes and renovations and extensions. 

    [00:04:03] Hamish: And has that always been something that you guys have done, like custom homes and, and renovation through your apprenticeship? D- did you do your apprenticeship with your previous employer?

    [00:04:11] James: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we did, like, general building, so I, I've got a real grasp on all different facets of 

    [00:04:17] Hamish: building. Top to bottom- Yeah ... like set out, concreting- 

    [00:04:18] James: Yeah ... 

    [00:04:19] Hamish: framing- 

    [00:04:19] Matt: Which was good ... and plaster by trade, technically. Is that what you've done 

    [00:04:22] James: for- What's that? Carpenter? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I got a good exposure to, I guess, all the trades, um, and dealing with a lot of the trades during the project.

    [00:04:31] So I enjoyed that, I guess, end-to-end type of work. Um, but yeah, we just started out with just doing whatever we could. S- like we did small decks and then it moved to small renovations and then larger renovations and extensions and then sort of into our first, first new home in, I think, 2018 and just sort of went from there.

    [00:04:51] Hamish: So you said you, you did your ACL and, um, I guess that was a moment where your boss sort of said, "Oh, you know, I can't have that liability," um, you know, of you [00:05:00] playing footy and, you know, potentially missing out on work. You decide to go overseas. Like, what happened in that time? Like, you know, where was your, where was your head at?

    [00:05:07] You've done your knee. You're obviously out for 6 to 12 weeks. Did you then go overseas for an extended period of time, like take a break from carpentry? Was 

    [00:05:15] James: there any- No, so we, I had that trip booked in. Okay. Like I was going overseas with my wife on like a, I think, eight or nine-week trip of Europe. So already had that trip booked in, but then I did my ACL.

    [00:05:24] I think I was off for maybe six weeks of work, went back for about another six weeks, and then had the trip. So, um- obviously had a lot of time. But I, I guess at that stage of my career I was still very much like I, I've come from a football, a AFL background. 

    [00:05:38] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:05:39] James: Loved my footy, so my only ever goal at that stage was to rehab my knee to get back to playing footy.

    [00:05:44] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:05:44] James: I was only playing country footy, but I, like, I just lived and breathed it. 

    [00:05:47] Hamish: Yep, okay. Um- 

    [00:05:47] James: Do you still play? I don't play now, no. Nah, it was sort of- 

    [00:05:51] Hamish: Listening in that one, Matthew. Yeah. I know you're still running around. 

    [00:05:55] James: Yeah, the knees were probably the end of it for me. Yeah, okay. Um, but yeah, [00:06:00] obviously went on, on the trip, and then sorta came back and then had that conversation with the mine plorer and just thought, "You know what?

    [00:06:04] I'm gonna go out and get my subbies license, do my builder's course," and it, yeah, just sort of went from there. 

    [00:06:09] Hamish: Was there any, was there any moment in that, in that period of time where you thought, "Oh, maybe I'll look at doing something else"? Or has it always been, um, 

    [00:06:16] James: carpentry? Nah. Nah, I think it was always, it was always carpentry.

    [00:06:18] Yeah. 

    [00:06:19] Hamish: Yeah. And, and did you, did you finish school, go straight into a trade, or not finish school, go into- 

    [00:06:23] James: No, so I finished year 12. 

    [00:06:25] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:06:25] James: And then s- then straight out of school I, 'cause A- AFL was big for me, so I was drafted by the Crows as a rookie. 

    [00:06:32] Hamish: Oh, 

    [00:06:32] James: really? I spent, I spent 12 months. It's not something I, um, I guess- You're a superstar now

    [00:06:38] overly talk about anymore. It's another, whole nother lifetime ago now. Um, but- What 

    [00:06:41] Matt: year? What year of the Crows? 

    [00:06:42] James: Uh, so I managed to catch the end of, like, Andrew McLeod. Oh, okay. Mark Proschutto. 

    [00:06:46] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:06:47] James: Um, like Simon Goodwin, those type of guys. Would 

    [00:06:49] Matt: they know you if you walked down the street now?

    [00:06:51] James: Probably not, no. So a little funny story. First day I was ever introduced by Neil Craig, who was the coach at the time, introduced me as Jason Turner, [00:07:00] not James Turner. And Andrew McLeod's locker was next to mine, so he was like a childhood hero of mine. So like first day rocking up to the club, my, my locker's right next to him, so I was, like, fan girling big time, and then he just proceeded to call me Jason for the whole, whole time that I was there.

    [00:07:13] So a little bit of a yeah- 

    [00:07:14] Hamish: Did you ever decide to correct him? 

    [00:07:16] James: No, he was doing it as a piss take. Okay. Okay. Yeah, he was doing it on purpose. Okay. 'Cause he had a, he had, I guess, a bit of a dry sense of humor, so he was doing it on purpose. Um, and it was always a good laugh, but- 

    [00:07:26] Hamish: I, I've actually never had the opportunity to ask anyone this.

    [00:07:28] So you, you're obviously massive footy fan, Crows fan, and then next minute you're, you're sitting next to your, like, arguably idol. How did, what, how does that feel? Like- 

    [00:07:40] James: Uh, it was a bit interesting to start with 'cause I was, as I said, I was, I was fangirling a little bit, but then it just, I guess you, you, you- 

    [00:07:47] Hamish: Just fall into the system

    [00:07:48] James: you just fall into the system. I feel like I was probably... I was straight out of high school, so I had to grow up super quick. 

    [00:07:55] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:07:55] James: Um, I felt I was probably too young- Okay ... at the time to be in that sort of [00:08:00] environment. Um, 'cause it is full-on. Like you're straight into there. You're six days a week. 

    [00:08:04] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:08:04] James: Um, like training every day.

    [00:08:06] So I probably look back on it now and probably thought I was probably one or two years a bit young at the time in terms of maturity. 

    [00:08:12] Matt: How long were you there for? 

    [00:08:13] James: Only 12 months. Yeah, 

    [00:08:14] Matt: okay. 

    [00:08:14] James: Yeah. Um, so I probably felt my, my better footy days were probably like post that, but it was, I guess- Missed the boat or- Yeah, I guess I- 

    [00:08:22] Matt: The nature of a rookie contract back then.

    [00:08:24] I think they've changed that now. Don't they usually have at least two years or something 

    [00:08:28] James: like that? Back then they could give rookie contracts to some players for two years. Yeah. But the Crows were always, it was just one. That was just, at that stage, that was their sort of blanket rule. 

    [00:08:36] Hamish: Yeah. There you go.

    [00:08:36] And then so from there, like, um, did, did a year of that and then it's like, "Right, well I need to sort of pivot and change direction here." Had carpenter always been something that you were interested in? Were you 

    [00:08:45] Matt: close to staying on though, or the, or was that just you, you've 

    [00:08:47] James: cleared out? I guess it's, it's hard to say.

    [00:08:49] Your manager sort of always tells you that, "Yeah, yep, everything looks good. You're staying on." And then went to my exit meeting, it's just like, "Oh shit, now what?" Like- 

    [00:08:56] Matt: Yeah ... like 

    [00:08:57] James: footy was just my whole life. It was like, "Okay, well, we'll just, we'll, [00:09:00] we'll, we'll spend a year, go back to the, like the state league- Yeah

    [00:09:03] and we'll try and get another spot." But that obviously didn't eventuate, so I think I did... I went straight from that. I think I did furniture removal for about three months- Yes ... which was a big fall from grace. Yeah, yeah. But I, I needed work at the time. And then, um, I was working for a, like a training and employment, um, company called ATEC just to like put clients who are on Centrelink into work, and I just happened to see an ad in the local Messenger for a carpentry apprenticeship- Yeah

    [00:09:33] and decided to slip my resume in with some of my clients- ... and ended up getting an interview. 

    [00:09:38] Hamish: Is that a conflict of 

    [00:09:39] James: interest? Um, and there were sort of a few things that happened. I suppose there was apparently another friend of one of the current apprentices that was a shoo-in to get the job, didn't rock up to his interview.

    [00:09:47] So everything just sort of fell in place, and I ended up getting the job. Um- 

    [00:09:51] Hamish: Was, was carpentry something that you, you were interested in or- 

    [00:09:53] James: I loved it at school. Yeah, okay. So the plan was through year 12, I was all, all the, I guess, vocational education. I did like a [00:10:00] doorways to construction course. Yes.

    [00:10:01] Hamish: Yep, 

    [00:10:01] James: yep. So that was the plan, and obviously then spent the 12 months in the AFL system and then went back to carpentry after that. 

    [00:10:08] Matt: So I might jump ahead. Um, you made a comment to us that you nearly threw in the towel 

    [00:10:14] James: I did 

    [00:10:15] Matt: Yeah 

    [00:10:15] Hamish: Yeah, in, in your form. You, you were, you were, you were, you were close. 

    [00:10:19] James: Yep. So that's, that was definitely a lot further on.

    [00:10:21] Yeah, that's- That was probably only- 

    [00:10:23] Matt: I wanna jump to that part. 

    [00:10:24] James: Yep. Yeah. We can jump to that. That was probably two and a bit years ago. Um, it was just a combination of things. It was me not really having a huge clue on how to run a, I guess, a profitable and successful business. Didn't really know how to estimate properly.

    [00:10:41] Um, didn't know probably how to manage people effectively at that time. Um, just had a few things. Obviously, COVID hit, lost a shitload of money, and just thought, "I'm, I'm done." Like, I was pretty well... I was getting up early in the morning, walking the streets just to clear my head, [00:11:00] starting to think about ways and how I was gonna tell my staff, how I was gonna tell my current clients, upcoming clients that I was done.

    [00:11:07] I was just ready to pull the pin. And then I think I listened to a podcast by the Association of Professional Builders. They did a podcast on how to close down a construction business, and I listened to that and went, "Fuck, that's too hard. Like, that's... It's gonna take two years- Yeah ... to, to close down a business."

    [00:11:25] Um, and sort of my wife just, we just had a good chat one night, and we just said, "Let's, let's give it one more crack." Um, and I ended up doing a, a co- a course called The Rising Kings, which is like a, a men's course, and that was about eight or nine weeks, which was a good little turning point for me mentally.

    [00:11:43] Like, I was quite open with people if they asked how I was going. I was like, "I'm, I'm struggling." Like- 

    [00:11:47] Matt: Was that, was that a build- Who? Was that a construction course? Yeah. 

    [00:11:49] James: No. No. 

    [00:11:50] Matt: Just a, like 

    [00:11:50] James: a men's- No, it's just like a, I guess, personal development. It's just like, a big part of it is just doing a lot of like little daily habits just to get you into some structure, [00:12:00] um, and reflecting on different aspects of your life and, and doing some deeper work, so.

    [00:12:03] Hamish: Have you talked about that in the Future Builder chat before, or has it been- No. 

    [00:12:06] James: No ... 

    [00:12:06] Hamish: uh, I, I swear someone else in the Future Builder chat has talked about- Yeah ... Rising Kings before. I 

    [00:12:11] James: reckon- I got it actually from, uh, you might know him from Live Life Build, Brett from Salt Ash Homes. 

    [00:12:17] Hamish: Brett. Okay. But that's where I, I listened to his- That's, I reckon, I reckon that's where it's from.

    [00:12:20] Yes, that's it. I listened to one of his 

    [00:12:21] James: podcasts. 

    [00:12:22] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:12:23] James: Yep. And that's- And that's, and that's where I got it from. So talk to me about more about this- I 

    [00:12:25] Hamish: actually think, I actually think Brett, Brett listened to this podcast. I talked to him a few weeks ago. Yeah. It was really great to- Yeah ... to reconnect with Brett.

    [00:12:30] He's a ripper fella. 

    [00:12:31] James: So I did that because I listened to... I heard him mention it- 

    [00:12:32] Hamish: Yeah, okay ... so I looked it 

    [00:12:33] Matt: up. Yep. Talk to me more about this Rising Kings. Like, what... I wanna go into that a little bit deeper because I think it's really important that we, before we get onto other coaching and training you might have done, that I wanna understand how that changed everything and so do you wanna expand on what was involved?

    [00:12:47] James: Yeah. So I guess a big part of it is- Trying to get a lot of structure in, like, your daily habits. So you have to do things like you had to have a greens, a particular green smoothie every morning, one-minute cold [00:13:00] shower, 30 minutes of exercise, I think five minutes of breathwork, 10 minutes of meditation, journaling.

    [00:13:07] Like, there was all different things that you had to tick off every day. And the i- uh, you weren't meant to drink during it. I think if you drink, you would have to sort of, I guess Own up to it that you had, I think the, the penalty was it's like 200 burpees or something like that, that if you, if you, if you drank during the- 

    [00:13:24] Hamish: Did you do 200 burpees?

    [00:13:25] James: No, I did it on the last day- Daily ... purely because I just wanted to see what doing 200 burpees was like. I've done 200 

    [00:13:29] Hamish: burpees before, it's fucking horrible. Yeah, it was. It takes about 

    [00:13:32] James: 25 

    [00:13:32] Hamish: minutes. It 

    [00:13:32] James: was disgusting. 

    [00:13:33] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:13:33] James: Um, but yeah, it was the first time... I'm, I'm not a big drinker, but we had a couple of like events that not long after I started, we had like a all ex- like we'd paid for this ticket to our...

    [00:13:44] Our favorite restaurant was teaming up with a winery, and we were going there, and it was like all you could drink, and I was shit scared. I'm like, "People are gonna ask me like, 'Why aren't you drinking?' And they're gonna like have a go at me." And no one asked me like throughout the whole day. And I'm like, "Oh, [00:14:00] okay.

    [00:14:00] Well, maybe it's not such a, I guess, not such a big thing." So... 

    [00:14:03] Hamish: Just, just on that, I stopped drinking two and a half years ago, right? And I haven't, you know, and I've gotten zero desire to, to, to start again, and that's just me personally, right? It just, it suits me well. I, I had exactly the same thing when I stopped drinking.

    [00:14:18] I was worried that people were gonna get stuck into me for not drinking. 'Cause drinking in the building industry and at the end of the weekend, like end of the week and all that kind of stuff is, "Oh, I'll have a beer," and whatever. Mm. Um, people just don't care. 

    [00:14:31] James: No. 

    [00:14:31] Hamish: No. And I don't care. And I, I feel like now in 2026, there is more people that I know in my circle that are either cutting back severely- Yeah

    [00:14:41] or just stopping drinking. 

    [00:14:41] Matt: Isn't the growing, biggest growing market or one of, is non-alcoholic beverages? They pay zero tax on it. Yeah. Or 

    [00:14:46] James: like- Probably kombucha 

    [00:14:47] Hamish: or something like that. Yeah ... but I, but I, but I also feel that, you know, my age, I'm in my 40s now, you're sort of late 30s, 30s you as well. I feel like we're getting to that time where we're kind of realizing that alcohol's not that great for our body.

    [00:14:59] James: Yeah. [00:15:00] Well, I've, like, my thing is if my wife and I go out for dinner, I'll have an espresso martini. Like that's- Great. Yep ... the one time that- Yep ... and we do it because we get joy out of it. Yep. I'm not getting it for the hit of alcohol. Yep. But the next day, I'm just like, "How the fuck do people- 

    [00:15:14] Hamish: Yep ... 

    [00:15:14] James: my age go out, drink on a Saturday night, and then function?"

    [00:15:18] Like I wouldn't function for three or four days, and then your week's done. As a business owner, you just can't do that. 

    [00:15:22] Hamish: So it feels like, just to sort of keep going with that conversation around resilience and all that stuff, like you, you sort of fast-forward to what Matt was saying before. Uh, you, you've obviously over the years have a hi- this history of trying things and I guess picking yourself up when you've, when you've fallen over, this Rising Kings thing.

    [00:15:41] But then you got to a point two and a half, three years ago where you're like, "You know what? I'm done." So w- what, what are the, what are the s- what are some of the steps that you've taken now or over the last three years to get to where you are now, where you obviously feel, and just listening to you in the Builder's Chat, the Future Builder's Chat, you [00:16:00] seem like you're in a much better place?

    [00:16:02] So w- what are some of the things that you've done over the last three or four years to help you get to where you are now? 

    [00:16:06] Matt: Like 

    [00:16:06] Hamish: have 

    [00:16:06] Matt: you continued to implement those things from the R- the Rising 

    [00:16:09] Hamish: Kings? 

    [00:16:10] James: Uh, I still have elements of the structure of it. Yeah. I, I never really resonated much with, like, journaling or meditation.

    [00:16:17] That just wasn't for me. Like, I love exercise. That's a, I guess a, getting that structure back because I was so... In my football days, that's, I guess I was always fit. Yeah. I was always out running, doing that type of thing, and then I probably dropped right off of that, and that's probably where I noticed the, the shift in my head space and where I was mentally, is I just wasn't putting the time and energy into exercising, look after my, after my body.

    [00:16:43] So that was a big one for me, having a lot of structure for that, and now that's, that's just part of my life now. Mm-hmm. Um, I've had to adjust. It was a big adjustment when we had kids. Like, I just- 

    [00:16:54] Hamish: How old are your kids? 

    [00:16:55] James: Uh, six and four. We've got another little one on the way. Um- 

    [00:16:59] Hamish: When are you, when are you due?[00:17:00] 

    [00:17:00] James: Uh, October. Early October. 

    [00:17:02] Hamish: Want to tell me what it is? 

    [00:17:03] James: I don't know. We, we- 

    [00:17:04] Hamish: No? 

    [00:17:04] James: We didn't find out with both of ours, and I haven't found out- 

    [00:17:06] Hamish: So what have you got? So what are your six and a four-year-old, boys or girls? 

    [00:17:09] James: Uh, six-year-old boy, four-year-old girl. Yeah. 

    [00:17:11] Hamish: Nice. 

    [00:17:11] James: And my four-year-old daughter is an absolute ball breaker.

    [00:17:16] Hamish: Probably has you wrapped around your little finger as well, no doubt. Yeah, 

    [00:17:19] James: definitely. Most definitely. 

    [00:17:20] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, awesome. So exercise, you, you... It sounds like you're starting to get these rhythms back in your life that kind of, I know especially for me, exercise and my diet, um, just, it pretty much sets the tone, the baseline for how I operate throughout the day.

    [00:17:36] If I don't have them locked in, then everything else kind of falls apart. They're kind of like the backbone of how I operate. Um, you mentioned in the form you filled out that you- You made the decision to g- have another crack. You've then done Zara Decotta's course. 

    [00:17:51] James: Yep. 

    [00:17:52] Hamish: And it's kinda set you off on a different trajectory in life.

    [00:17:54] Mm-hmm. Do you maybe wanna talk through that a little bit for us? 

    [00:17:58] James: Yeah, so I p- I was probably at a stage in, [00:18:00] I guess, more so building that I was just a bit, like, I didn't have no, no real direction. I wasn't passionate about building. And then I came across Zara's course and thought, oh, it just sort of, like, sparked my interest a little bit, and joined up with her course and that was a bit of a, I guess, a shift or a turning point for me, just in my building journey.

    [00:18:19] I hadn't learnt or anything about passive house or high performance or anything at that stage. It was just, uh, looking at the house holistically and all the elements and materials that go into it, and the effects on, I guess, the health of your body. Um, and my wife is very much, I guess, passionate about the food that we eat, the environment that we're in.

    [00:18:37] Um, like she's super passionate about that, so that's helped me, I guess, dive into that a little bit more. Um, and it just felt very much aligned listening to her talk and doing her course. Um, yeah, just sort of sparked my interest to... What, 

    [00:18:52] Hamish: what- And what- Yeah ... what were some of the takeaways that you got from Zara's course?

    [00:18:55] James: Um, it was just- 'Cause I've 

    [00:18:56] Hamish: done it, I've done it as well. Yeah. 

    [00:18:57] James: Yeah. It was just looking at the house holistically and looking- Yeah ... at, [00:19:00] like, carpets. Like, we were noticing, like, our kids, like especially our son, he had, like, two ear infections, like burst both his eardrums, and I was just, like, scraping my brain to think what, like what is going on?

    [00:19:12] Like I'd, as, as I said, I had no exposure to passive house or anything, so I didn't really understand about the health of your home at that stage. 

    [00:19:18] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:19:19] James: And I was scraping my brain going like, like, "What's going on with our house?" And then I started to understand about mold, um, and, like, dust and carpets and that type of thing.

    [00:19:28] So we, like, we've, we've ripped the carpets out of his room. He's still just got a concrete floor currently in his bedroom. He loves it. The kids have drawn chalk all over it. We've just left it as it is. Um, and- 

    [00:19:37] Hamish: Has it made a difference? 

    [00:19:38] James: Yeah. Yep, most definitely. And then we bought, like, I think I spoke to Zara about, like, the little, like, portable, um, air filters- 

    [00:19:46] Hamish: Yep

    [00:19:46] James: as well, so we've got one of them. Um- And yeah, it was just sort of, that was probably the trigger to be like, "Okay, w- why are, why is the kids and why is my wife still c- constantly getting sick?" Yeah. They're the ones that were home all the time when I was out at [00:20:00] work, so I wasn't exposed to it in the house as long.

    [00:20:02] Hamish: So I, I, I did the course, and, you know, I've known Zara for a long time. You know, I've had her ref- I've, I've had her on some SBA stuff and, uh, I did the course. And I've had s- many robust conversations with Zara about some of the things that she talks about. There are a lot of things that I agree with.

    [00:20:17] There are a lot of things that I, I don't necessarily agree with. And that- Like what? ... that's actually okay. I'm not gonna go into that. But one of the things that, um, one of the things that I, that really did resonate with me, and, you know, I, I really, I guess, thank Zara for, um, bringing to my attention was carpet.

    [00:20:34] Matt: Yeah. '

    [00:20:34] Hamish: Cause we've moved from this beautiful, completely renovated extended home, uh, in Moranbah two or three years ago, to a home that's got carpet that is 40 years old, and it's fucking gross. 

    [00:20:47] Matt: It's a filter. 

    [00:20:48] Hamish: And I, and I rec- So I've got a nine-month-old, and she's always got a runny nose. And I, and I said to Liz, "I'm, I'm pretty sure that it's the environment that we're in right now that's causing a lot of these things, where, where [00:21:00] coughs hang around for a little bit longer and..."

    [00:21:02] You know, we have longer term plans to renovate and extend this home, so I know at some point it will be our forever- 'Cause rip 

    [00:21:07] Matt: the carpet out ... 

    [00:21:08] Hamish: um- '

    [00:21:09] Matt: Cause like the, the, like, online, if you think about this logically, and like not to, like, call anyone out or yourself, but like the, that's been there for 40 years.

    [00:21:17] It's a filter. We see it, HIV filter. I, 

    [00:21:19] Hamish: I, mate, I, the, 

    [00:21:19] Matt: again- And then that's what the, the surface they're- 

    [00:21:21] Hamish: I know ... 

    [00:21:22] Matt: crawling around on. 

    [00:21:22] Hamish: I, I know. You're absolutely right. And like we, we, we've ended up pulling carpet out in a whole bunch of areas and, and put just some- Vinyl ... f- floors that I got off Marketplace down, right?

    [00:21:32] Yep. Uh, just, just to kinda make it a little bit nicer. But I was crawling around on the carpet with Ginny, uh, on, on the weekend, and I'm just looking at the carpet going, "This is fucking gross." But then I look at like what I need to do to rip the carpet out. Like, I'd take the bed out. I gotta take this out, and it's like, "Oh, maybe I need to do it.

    [00:21:48] Maybe I need to do it" Maybe you've in- you've inspired me. Maybe I've got to- Just do 

    [00:21:52] James: it in sections. Cut a section out, move the bed across- ... and that section, sort it out. Yeah. 

    [00:21:55] Hamish: Uh, you know what? That's actually not a bad idea. I've actually- I've got some flooring that I can put down. Yeah. So [00:22:00] maybe I'll do that.

    [00:22:01] Matt: Yeah, I'm... It's, it's... And it's also we- we- we talk about surface area. It's like it's a large portion of the house where you'd have carpet. But also I understand the opposite argument where, and I think this is where we get confused about building better and the health and comfort and, of, of the building, because the floor is really the only surface we're in touch in on a house.

    [00:22:20] Like, we walk around bare feet, and it's the only real connection we have to the house. Like, you're not sitting your body up against the back of a wall on the plaster where you feel the, the cool, the cool side of the plaster or something. So people have associated having carpet with a form of comfort because it's warmer.

    [00:22:34] But what if we just built better- 

    [00:22:36] Hamish: Yep ... 

    [00:22:37] Matt: and insulated the floor or subfloor, and then that warmth is already there. 

    [00:22:43] Hamish: Well, there, there was a, a section in our house. So we did a really quick reno just so it was not a shit place to live in, and we s- kept a section. We, we put new carpet down in the section where the TV was because we were pregnant with Junie, and Lucy was like, "I really kind of want her on the floor."

    [00:22:59] Well, um, I'm not [00:23:00] putting her on that gross carpet, so we just got some new carpet put down in that section there. Um, but yeah, I, I think when we renovate and extend, we'll probably not put carpet. But 

    [00:23:08] Matt: there are also some carpets now that have declare labels on them that are from spun corn, I think. 

    [00:23:13] Hamish: Oh, okay.

    [00:23:13] Matt: Yeah, so there's a Godfrey Hirst there, so there's no nasties in them. Having said that, it's still gonna 

    [00:23:20] Hamish: collect- Still, still captures the dust and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, obviously we're not seeking any carpet sponsors for the, uh, 

    [00:23:26] James: the- I think, I think the big one was, like, if you spill, say, water or something on carpet, which we had young kids, so there was- Yeah

    [00:23:31] stuff getting spilled on it all the time. If it's not dry within, like, the first, like, little part, then mold could potentially start growing. But 

    [00:23:39] Matt: isn't that any surface though? And you 

    [00:23:40] James: just can't see that in the carpet. 

    [00:23:41] Matt: Isn't that plaster? Of the kids, like, like, isn't that really could be the same if- 

    [00:23:46] Hamish: Pro- I think carpet, carpet's probably a little bit more susceptible- Yeah, yeah.

    [00:23:48] Yeah ... to, to, to a horizontal surface. Yeah. It's not gonna dry as- Yeah. No, no, I know ... easy as plaster. So you've done Zara's course. You know, you've... I guess it, it sparked some passion again. 

    [00:23:56] James: Yep. 

    [00:23:56] Hamish: So where's that kind of... What, what, what kind of direction did that [00:24:00] then send you on for your business? 

    [00:24:01] James: So then I was like, "All right, I want to get back into..."

    [00:24:04] Like, I've done a bit of business coaching as well. I've worked with, like, a couple of ones previously, and I was right on the borderline of joining up with one, um, like a well-known one, and then I just got a random call out of the blue from Kyle from Future Builder one day. And he, I think I was actually looking to sign up with the other one that day, so he literally timed it to perfection.

    [00:24:25] Um- 

    [00:24:25] Matt: What changed your mind between the difference? 

    [00:24:28] James: Just, like, what he explained about what was involved and what they were gonna provide from, I guess, from training and assets and, um, I guess white labeling all the documentation and stuff they had from their business, and I was like, "Yep, that's, like, that's what I've been looking for."

    [00:24:42] Like, there was elements of the other ones that I was like were great, but there was also elements were like there was parts missing. So what he, I guess, spoke to me, and then I, I jumped on a, like, a group Zoom I think the following day, and I, I, I remember jumping off the call and I said to my admin at the time, I'm like, "I've found what I need from a, [00:25:00] I guess a, a business development point of view," and I signed up I think straight away.

    [00:25:04] They hadn't actually kicked off at that stage. It was sort of like a pre, pre-sign up, but- Yeah ... that was probably the catalyst for me. Um, and then that's when I started to learn about Passive House and high performance, 'cause I was around other- 

    [00:25:17] Matt: So at that point you had no idea really to- 

    [00:25:19] James: Hadn't even heard the term.

    [00:25:20] Matt: Yeah. Wow. 

    [00:25:20] Hamish: Is that right? 

    [00:25:21] James: Nah. 

    [00:25:22] Hamish: Two and a half years ago? 

    [00:25:23] James: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:25:23] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. 

    [00:25:24] James: It might have, might have come across in Zara's course somewhere. Mm. But not enough to s- I guess spike my interest to look into it. Uh, 

    [00:25:31] Hamish: it wouldn't, it probably wouldn't have, um, having done it and knowing some of the messaging that, like, they're just separate things.

    [00:25:38] James: Yeah. 

    [00:25:40] Matt: Like? 

    [00:25:41] Hamish: They're just sep- separate things. Like, you- Zara's more talking about, like the, the elements that go into a home. 

    [00:25:46] Matt: But they're, but they're kind of intertwined though, I'd feel like. Uh, 

    [00:25:49] Hamish: 100%, 100%. Yeah, that's 

    [00:25:49] Matt: what, 

    [00:25:50] Hamish: that's 

    [00:25:51] Matt: what, this 

    [00:25:51] Hamish: is where I'm come, pushing a bit. Yeah. 100%, but it, but it's not... Like having done Zara's course and done the Passive House course, and obviously built a bunch of Passive Houses- Y- yeah

    [00:25:56] they're just different things. But 

    [00:25:57] Matt: fundamentally they're trying to achieve the same thing. 

    [00:25:59] Hamish: I [00:26:00] think, I think together they're... Like, if you kinda look at the, the building blocks of- Yeah ... like getting a good business and finding a good direction, all of it has really good value. 

    [00:26:08] Matt: Yeah. So I, I pushed on that because I, the, I just didn't want people thinking they're literally like enemies or- No, 

    [00:26:13] Hamish: they're not enemies.

    [00:26:13] Sorry. No, no- No. Yeah ... they're certainly not enemies, but they're very much like- Yeah ... they coexist together. Yeah, 

    [00:26:18] Matt: yeah. 

    [00:26:18] Hamish: For sure. 

    [00:26:19] Matt: Definitely. Um, I know this is jumping ahead a little bit too, because you asked... We had an event last night in the s- same room, and you asked a really good question when we sort of had open mic.

    [00:26:31] Um, do you remember what your question was? I think- And I kind of, I think this is really good 'cause it kind of goes into like you finding Passive House and then obviously now wanting to tr- transition, which I think we find a lot of architects, builders, engineers, tradies in the boat you're in right now, and you asked a question I think is very valid for everyone.

    [00:26:51] Hamish: How, how do, how do we get from zero to doing what you're doing? 

    [00:26:54] James: Yeah. 

    [00:26:55] Hamish: Yeah. Which is- 

    [00:26:55] James: Which, yeah, that's, that came up right at the end. 

    [00:26:57] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:26:57] James: Um, but yeah. 

    [00:26:58] Hamish: And, and as soon as you asked- If you could [00:27:00] pick that back up ... as soon as you asked the question, I'm like, "Oh, that's a great podcast episode" because like I can't answer it now 'cause it's, you know, 5:55.

    [00:27:06] Matt: But- Yeah ... but I, I think... So I will give my opinion on this one here a little bit. So someone reached out to me recently, I can't even remember who it was, and they're like, "You're at level one of Passive Hou- uh, you're, I'm at level one of Passive House knowledge, and you're at level 100. How do I get there?"

    [00:27:22] Or, and I'm like, "Well, I was level one one day too." Yeah. At one point I didn't know what Passive House was. I then knew about it, I then learnt, and then you sort of like... It, it takes effort. Um, it's not, someone's not gonna sit there, uh, feeding you with a spoon with all the information and, and knowledge and, um, uh, answers.

    [00:27:43] Whilst we as a community would have a lot of the answers, it's something I think learning to talk about it and market and sale, like sell and convince a client is a challenge. Uh, we probably got lucky. So- 

    [00:27:57] Hamish: I, I think, I- This is just my [00:28:00] take on it. I think when, 'cause our journey in Passive House I think started at a very similar time, within t- 12 months of each other, right?

    [00:28:05] Yeah, yeah. So, so pre-COVID, whenever that was, I think the major difference between when we kind of pivoted our business to where you are right now is, I, I think it's als- it's easier now, but it's also harder now. So, and if, and, and let me break that down. When we decided to do it, there wasn't as much information out there, so the, the resources that we were drawing on were quite finite.

    [00:28:30] Like- 

    [00:28:30] Matt: We just told a client, we go, "Hey, we're building you a Passive House." 

    [00:28:32] Hamish: Well, I guess the point I'm making is that, you know, y- Justin, Devon- 

    [00:28:36] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:28:36] Hamish: Burkhard, like, there was only a handful of people that we could go and get the answers for, and, you know, these were tried and tested businesses that were doing the thing The problem now, which is also it's a, it's a double-edged sword, is that there is so much information out there 

    [00:28:52] Matt: Yeah 

    [00:28:53] Hamish: Like, the information is- Not, not 

    [00:28:53] Matt: always correct either 

    [00:28:55] Hamish: Well, that's, it's what I'm getting at.

    [00:28:56] It's freely available, everyone's got an opinion on it, [00:29:00] everyone's going on and saying they're a high performance builder, which I think is- A lot of- ... fucking incredible, right? That- 

    [00:29:04] Matt: Also a lot of crap, I'm gonna say it too 

    [00:29:06] Hamish: Okay, fine, but that's not where I'm going. Like, it's... I think it's incredible that we've got more and more people that are s- like yourself, have go, "This is what I wanna do.

    [00:29:13] I wanna build better homes." The tricky part is, is actually finding out what the right information is. 

    [00:29:18] James: Yeah. 

    [00:29:18] Hamish: So I think in one way it's easier, but in the other way it's hard 'cause it's harder to filter all the stuff. But if- 

    [00:29:24] Matt: But there's multiple parts of information here. So you've got the technical knowledge and knowhow.

    [00:29:28] You've probably got then the building and on-site sort of knowhow that you've gotta understand, and I think that's something that you'll f- you'll just pick up by mistakes. Like, that's the easiest one as a builder or tradie to, to work through. Because you've installed a window before, you can see a set of plans and sort of find on YouTube or Instagram how to install that window.

    [00:29:45] So that's the easiest one. The technical knowledge just comes with repetition. So- Yeah ... the amount of conversations or PHP meetings you have with Cam, you pick things up along the way- Yeah ... and you'll learn. And every time you come to that meeting being like, "Ooh, I didn't know about that. Better read up on that."

    [00:29:58] I think then you go into [00:30:00] other aspects. It's the sales. 'Cause y- if you, you can market... It's very easy to market yourself as a Passive House builder. That's... Or Passive House architect or whatever. Like, that's, I would say, pretty easy, Hamish. 

    [00:30:13] Hamish: Uh, uh, y- yeah, it is, but that's, that's, 

    [00:30:15] Matt: that, that- 'Cause you fake it till you make it

    [00:30:16] Hamish: yeah, it is, but that's, that's, that's probably getting to the point where I'm saying it's actually harder now because there's a lot of noise out there. 

    [00:30:22] Matt: But I think we, we've, we've, we've got confused with marketing versus sales here. I think, I think we've gotta understand they're two separate things, because marketing is showing what you do and what the brand you have and the, those sort of things.

    [00:30:35] But being able to talk about it is a, and sell the product is a whole different thing. 

    [00:30:40] Hamish: Yeah, but, but this is, this is not necessarily helping James. We're, we're talking about all the problems here. We're not necessarily solving them. Like, I, I, I think if I was to give you some advice, it's, it's trying to f- then filter out the noise, and then try and literally just work back to the basics.

    [00:30:53] Mm. Like, what is Passive House? What are the five principles of Passive House? What are the things that I need to do in my business to [00:31:00] transition to that? Try not to get too, uh, caught up in what everybody else is doing I was about to say, and this is probably gonna sound a bit arrogant, unless you're looking at the Matts, unless you look at the Hamishs, unless you look at the Mark from MVH, the Alwins, the people that have rungs on the board, Jackson, the perfect person that you could pick his brain and, uh, you know, knowing Jackson pretty well, and hopefully Jackson, you know, um, won't mind me saying that, he would not care if he, you just said, "Can I just sit down with you for an afternoon?"

    [00:31:31] Like, he is so genuine. Don't ever 

    [00:31:33] Matt: uncall Jackson. 

    [00:31:33] Hamish: Don't ever un- I'm, I'm saying, James, you can call Jackson, given you've permission to. If not, my number will be at the bottom of the- Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll put it in the show notes. But, like, mate, 'cause if you look at... Okay, it's, uh, gonna be a win-win for Jackson, right?

    [00:31:44] He educates you, he helps you, I guess, establish some of the things you need to do in your business. He then goes, "Here, go and talk to Jess, 'cause then you can buy the product from the other business that I own." Yeah. Right? So it kind of, it, it sort of fulfills itself a little bit there. But I think this is 

    [00:31:58] Matt: what...

    [00:31:58] But I, I'm, but I, I 100% [00:32:00] agree, but I think breaking into silos is almost important when you talk into facets of the building, whether it's, it's marketing, sales, technical. Because to- Because- ... it allows you, gives you little goals to focus on within them, because if you don't, for example, know, if you can't explain Passive House clearly, well, how can you market it?

    [00:32:17] Then how can you sell it? Because if you, you, it, it is honestly the easiest thing to market. 

    [00:32:21] Hamish: Ag- agree, but that's where, that's where he needs to find the basics, though. Yeah. You, you, you need to know what those five principles are so then you can talk to them. Yeah. 

    [00:32:28] Matt: Yeah. '

    [00:32:29] Hamish: Cause if you listen to the, the, um, the, um, consumer that was in here last night asking those questions, she's like, "I, I just want to-" Who was also 

    [00:32:37] Matt: in marketing, by 

    [00:32:37] Hamish: the way

    [00:32:37] who's al- who's also in marketing. She goes, "I just want to feel the emotion." 

    [00:32:40] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:32:40] Hamish: But how can you sell the emotion if you don't know the fundamentals of it? They don't want to hear about all the, um, stats, all the metrics that you need to hear, 'cause as far as I'm concerned, they're fucking boring. 

    [00:32:50] Matt: And even, but even, but even on that, I would say they also don't want to hear that you're putting a HRV in the house.

    [00:32:55] You don't need to... To me, to me, that, that can come once you explain why [00:33:00] comfort and health are important. 

    [00:33:01] Hamish: I'd challenge that. 

    [00:33:02] Matt: Because you, you ca- you can get to that along the way. I don't think you jump in f- at the start and go, "We're gonna put in a HRV." 

    [00:33:07] Hamish: Tr- uh, yeah, sorry, true. You're right. I think, yeah, I think you need to talk about how comfortable and healthy 

    [00:33:11] Matt: it's gonna 

    [00:33:11] Hamish: be.

    [00:33:11] Yes. 

    [00:33:11] Matt: That's what, that's what I mean. 

    [00:33:12] Hamish: And then you, all of these things exist because, like, you s- you talk about all the boring data later. 

    [00:33:18] Matt: What, what's the book called? Start With Why? 

    [00:33:20] Hamish: Start With Why by, um, Simon Sinek, yeah. And 

    [00:33:22] Matt: I think it's a really good book for people to, to, to read, because it's the same principle with, um, the principle of selling a Passive House or high performance home or a comfortable home, because w- I, and this is my opinion, I don't think Passive House sells.

    [00:33:36] I think what sells is health and comfort and durability and resilience- Agree. Yeah, 

    [00:33:39] Hamish: agree ... 

    [00:33:39] Matt: and, and control and durability. Like, the, we, we can go on, but those keywords are also now very, uh Greenwashed. 

    [00:33:47] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:33:48] Matt: Um, they are, they are overused by people who don't, um, who don't use them correctly. 

    [00:33:57] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:33:57] Matt: So they, they're also getting, like, washed out.[00:34:00] 

    [00:34:00] So you've got to be creative and look beyond those words again to, to f- to explain to the client why it's important. I- I- literally, uh, most clients already get it. They actually understand it, but then you gotta find what's emotional to them and what their pain barrier is and w- why, ultimately why they're coming to you.

    [00:34:17] Usually for me it's that we want a healthy, comfortable home, so I don't have to explain it to them, but I still need to sometimes get them across the line, and you can always revert back to their, to their why. 

    [00:34:27] Hamish: Do you know, I was thinking just then as Matt was talking, um, I reckon you're in a really unique opportunity to actually tell your story now and tell your- Mm

    [00:34:37] journey to your clients. 

    [00:34:38] Matt: Be vulnerable. 

    [00:34:39] Hamish: You, yeah, be vulnerable- Yeah ... and actually, right, jump on social media today and go, "Hey, you know what? Today is day one of my journey of becoming a better builder, and these are how we're gonna do it." And then you literally have this, like, vlog that you can do over the next six to 12 months of this progression of things that you've learned and goals that you're [00:35:00] setting for yourself.

    [00:35:01] And if you've got engaged clients that see this, this development over this time, like, they're gonna be naturally attracted to that. 

    [00:35:08] Matt: People love people. 

    [00:35:09] Hamish: Pe- pe- yeah, pe- people are gonna, people are gonna buy off people, right? Okay, so Matt and I have got the advantage. We've got years of runs on the board. I can jump on and say, "Look at this house, HRV, ventilated cavities, all the blower doors."

    [00:35:21] Which, it's a good sight when it come on, yeah. All, yeah, all that kind of stuff, 'cause we've done it before. Watch my brand design episode, hey? You've got this really, really unique, this really unique opportunity to tell a different story- Yeah ... about growth, and I reckon people are gonna resonate with that.

    [00:35:33] James: It's funny, my project manager rung me after the event last night on the way home. He thought, he obviously... I left 'cause he was, um, having a chat with one of the other supervisors about build- building details, and I had to get home to put the kids to bed, but he rung me and he's like, "Oh," like, "What was your key takeaway?"

    [00:35:50] Um, and we obviously spoke about the marketing aspect, and he's like, "We need to do..." He's like, "I love the pretty videos that we do, but," and you touched on it last night, but he's like, "We just need to do more just, like, [00:36:00] face to, like-" Yeah ... face to camera- Yeah ... just- He's, he- ... more conversational type ones. Like, I did a video the other day, I think on Friday.

    [00:36:09] We, the ho- house that we're building at the moment, we had a volume builder right next to us, and it was a pigsty. No site fences. Great. There was no bin. Yeah. There was rubbish everywhere. So I was like- 

    [00:36:19] Matt: I would frost 

    [00:36:19] James: that ... a custom, a custom versus. Yeah. I covered the business up. Like, I wasn't gonna rat any, any builders out or throw them under the bus, but it was just a, a real stark contrast between the two.

    [00:36:29] Yeah. Um, and I got heaps of, like, feedback from it, like all positive. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the most engagement I've had on something for quite a while. Um- 

    [00:36:37] Matt: It's also brand awareness because the, the, the consumer might not buy now, but they might buy in a year. Yeah. And so a lot of the thing that I get when people reach out to us is, "Oh, I've been following you for years," or, "I've been watching, listening to your podcast for years."

    [00:36:49] Yeah. It, it, it's not, don't expect to put something out today and get 50 calls- Yeah ... or 50, 50 people wanting to build a passive. It's a, you, you have to play the long game. 

    [00:36:58] Hamish: 100%, and this is what I was saying. I reckon [00:37:00] you've got a really unique opportunity here to, to play on your journey. 

    [00:37:05] Matt: Mm. And pe- 

    [00:37:06] Hamish: People love, love a good news story, right?

    [00:37:08] And we get a- Of this is where I was, this is where I wanna get to, and this is what I'm doing along the way. I, I, I feel like, you know, just the lady that was here last night, like, I reckon that would resonate with her. 

    [00:37:19] Matt: So we, we constantly, and Hamish and I constantly talk about our marketing approach and what we're doing and from newsletters to, to website to social media posts, whatever, and we, we both understand that we have our stuff copied because it's worked.

    [00:37:34] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:37:34] Matt: But ultimately we also copy people because I look at other industries to see what's working. Like, all my or- ideas are not original. Like, I have looked at something else from another industry and gone, "Hmm, I can maybe tweak that to- Yeah ... to bring into our industry." What you, what you can't do, I think, from a marketing perspective is look at what- And this goes for, and this isn't just builders, this is architects, anyone.

    [00:37:55] I think you can't just look at what's working now, because that's already happening now. You [00:38:00] need... And that's why, that's why I don't care sharing my information or sharing what we do, because by the time you go implement what we've done from a marketing perspective, we're already- 

    [00:38:07] James: Yeah, 

    [00:38:07] Matt: you're already on your next thing

    [00:38:08] we're already the next thing. Yeah. So I think you, people need to look at what is the next thing or what. And you have to not be afraid to fail when you're marketing messaging. And I constantly try different types of content, and they, they literally have like- Oh, yeah. Do it ... 10 likes. I'm like, "Cool, that's not working."

    [00:38:21] Do it all the time. I'll try it again. I'll try it three, four times and go, "Okay, that didn't work." 

    [00:38:25] Hamish: Yeah, I mean, uh, so getting back to, uh, to yours, to your scenario, it's, it's also gonna make you really accountable. 'Cause if you're jumping on and saying, "I'm going to do this" and you- Do it ... genuinely want people to follow on, and, you know, you, you, you've g- got this really great opportunity to have this sort of nurturing process over the next six to 12 months, you then need to back it the fuck up.

    [00:38:47] James: Yeah. And I think from, in terms of the team that we have, like we're on that path. 

    [00:38:52] Hamish: I've got- Who, who was the guy that was here last night? 

    [00:38:54] James: That's Ali, 

    [00:38:55] Hamish: my project manager. No, he's a legend. 

    [00:38:56] James: So he r- he runs all of the, the contracting side. 

    [00:38:58] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:38:58] James: yeah. Um, and he's a [00:39:00] trade favorite, client favorite. Yeah. They all s- all my clients say to me, "Do whatever you can to keep hold of him."

    [00:39:04] Yep, 

    [00:39:05] Hamish: yep. 

    [00:39:05] James: Um, 'cause he's unreal, and he's got full buy-in to- Don't, don't pump him up too much ... going down that, um- He's probably going to ask 

    [00:39:11] Hamish: for a pay rise. Is he, is he moving to Melbourne? Yeah. Melbourne's a great place to live. 

    [00:39:15] James: Um, so in terms of that aspect, I'm like, I'm, I'm super comfortable with- Yeah ... us being able to, I guess, do that type of work.

    [00:39:22] Yeah. I'm, I don't have any qualms about that. Um- 

    [00:39:25] Matt: What's your biggest fear? 

    [00:39:26] James: What's that, sorry? 

    [00:39:27] Matt: What's your biggest fear?

    [00:39:34] James: Obviously not, like I, I, I, I really wanna get to that level. For me, it's just figuring out how to get to that level. Um, I've, I've always had, and it's probably stemmed from my football days, I've all had a big fear of failure. 

    [00:39:46] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:39:46] James: Um, I feel like I'm better at it now. Like I've s- I've probably got to a, I guess, just a space in life where I'm a bit more comfortable in my own skin.

    [00:39:57] Don't really care so much about what people [00:40:00] think, um, about what I do. So, um, for now it's just for us figuring out, okay, well how do we get from where we are currently to the level that I wanna get to? Um, and obviously we've touched on the marketing side of things, and that's my part of the business.

    [00:40:16] Yeah. Like that's the marketing part. So I know that I need to get my face on the camera a lot more and a lot more educational content. It's scary. Pe- 

    [00:40:24] Hamish: people buy from people. 

    [00:40:25] James: Um- So, so 

    [00:40:25] Hamish: what's 

    [00:40:25] Matt: holding you back?

    [00:40:30] James: Um, it's, we're literally right on the cuff. Like, I'm literally just about... I've bought a, um, what do you call it? Like, a projector thing. Um, like a monitor, so I can sit there and record a lot of, like, um- Like a 

    [00:40:41] Matt: teleprompt? 

    [00:40:42] James: Yeah, that's the sort of... I've bought a teleprompter. So I only got that, like, last week.

    [00:40:46] So- 

    [00:40:46] Matt: They are the hardest things to use. So- I, I find them- Yeah ... the, like, that's where I fuck up everything. 

    [00:40:51] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm, I'll, I'm, like, off the cuff. I'm 

    [00:40:53] Matt: off the cuff. So, so if you- Yeah ... I'll give you a tip. The eas- Just... Have you purchased it? 

    [00:40:57] James: I've got it, yeah. 

    [00:40:58] Matt: Okay, cool. The easiest way to honestly [00:41:00] do it is just film all your content on site.

    [00:41:02] James: Yep. 

    [00:41:02] Matt: Just film stuff. 

    [00:41:03] James: And just do voiceover. 

    [00:41:04] Matt: Cut it up and voiceover. And cr- eventually you can create, like, a script through, uh, say Gemini or something to talk how they want it. Yep. And it will give you the script, and then you just adjust it to suit the personality. Yeah, 

    [00:41:15] James: so I've created all the scripts.

    [00:41:17] I've worked with James from Automation King. Great, yep. Got all the scripts, they're ready to go. Sort of tweaked them all to sound like us. So I've obviously got the content, I now just have to go out and shoot it all, and do it all, and then start, and, and start putting it out there. 

    [00:41:28] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:41:29] James: Um... 

    [00:41:30] Hamish: Well, mate, it, it, uh, fr- from what you've told us today, it sounds like you're very much on the right path.

    [00:41:36] Just a couple little tweaks here and there. And, and I think this, this thinking about that people buy from people, uh, you know, being re- being really honest to yourself, and then backing up the things that you're gonna say. You know, you sound like you've got a really great team as well, supportive wife and family.

    [00:41:50] You know, the reality is you got another kid on the way, you fucking have to make this work. Yeah, so we are watching- You got no other choice. 

    [00:41:55] Matt: My follow-on que- like, 'cause I had three that this links to. So, like, what's the worst that happens? [00:42:00] 

    [00:42:00] James: And that's probably where, like, I did a bit of work with some, um, like councils and stuff- Yeah

    [00:42:04] when I was at my worst. 

    [00:42:06] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:42:06] James: And that was a question she asked me. She was like, "What's the worst that can happen?" Oh, that's exactly the same thing- And 

    [00:42:10] Hamish: I'm like, "Uh" ... as that my psychologist used to ask me. Yeah, 

    [00:42:12] Matt: it's like, like what, honestly, if you put yourself in front of the camera and you don't get any likes, like what's...

    [00:42:18] And likes on everything, by the way. But what's the worst? 

    [00:42:21] James: Nothing. I just ke- I, I just keep going on, like it- It 

    [00:42:24] Hamish: doesn't so- it doesn't sound to me that you're, that there's a barrier to jump in front of the camera, though. 

    [00:42:28] Matt: No. 

    [00:42:29] James: But also- 

    [00:42:29] Matt: No ... the other th- No, no, no, the, I know, and I'm, but what I'm sort of also- Yeah

    [00:42:32] where I'm kinda wanting to get to is, like, when you say, I say, "What's the worst?" You don't need- other builders, tradies liking your post or whatever. If you just get one client that's like, "I like that" 

    [00:42:46] James: Yeah. Yeah 

    [00:42:46] Matt: And they buy from you, cool. Yeah. And that's what we spoke about last night, my biggest pet hate with a lot of social media and building companies right now is they go pay a videographer thousands of dollars to watch me shoot this nail into the, the frame and, uh, look at this window [00:43:00] I'm installing and, I, I don't know what the fuck that's doing for a marketing message, 'cause all you're doing is appealing to other tradies who go, "Oh, that looks sick, bro."

    [00:43:07] And at the end of the day, does a c- consumer at the end go, "Oh, yeah, I- I'll purchase that"? Yeah. I don't think so. 

    [00:43:14] Hamish: If, if I think about the people that I think are doing well, Karl Zanetto, Dean Backman, Luke Callery, uh, Neil from Future Flip, like all these guys are in front of the camera. 

    [00:43:23] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:43:23] Hamish: Uh, Matt Carlin, you know, I know I do it as well, 'cause we've got the podcast, SBA, we jump on camera all the time.

    [00:43:28] Like, people are buying from us. 

    [00:43:30] Matt: And you can consume us. How, 

    [00:43:32] Hamish: like- People are, people are buying from us, like Jackson is a, and a, is an amazing example of he put so many videos out there of him, and he was telling us last night at dinner that they've got a house under construction right now, that he met the client for the first time, but the clients are still buying him- 

    [00:43:49] Matt: Yeah

    [00:43:49] Hamish: because they've seen him and they've seen the brand, and they've, they know that he's attached to 

    [00:43:53] Matt: this. How meaty is he in his tucked in T-shirt and his- 

    [00:43:55] Hamish: Oh, you know, I, you know 

    [00:43:57] Matt: I'm here in my, like, large baggy T-shirt and 

    [00:43:59] Hamish: [00:44:00] he's all- I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big fan girl of Jackson. Sorry, Jackson, if that's embarrassing you, but I'm a huge fan

    [00:44:05] I 

    [00:44:06] James: think the, like we obviously touched on the marketing side of things, but what we sort of got to at the end of last night was for builders such as me, when you're trying to get into passive house, high performance building, is how do we get from here to there- ... and understanding the elements that go into a passive house and not, by introducing those elements, not shooting yourself in the foot and doing more harm than good.

    [00:44:34] That's probably where we're at. Obviously, I've, I've done my passive house course. I just have to sit my exam. So I'm, I'm starting... And obviously you don't just do that course and all of a sudden you know everything about passive house. Yeah. I'm very well aware of that. And it's gonna be, once again, it's gonna be going back to school and just learning from making mistakes.

    [00:44:51] I'm f- fully aware of that. I feel like there's a lot more from a support network, from people in Future Builder, et cetera, that we would be able to reach out to [00:45:00] from a detailed perspective. Yeah. I think a, a podcast you guys did a little while ago with Simon, I think he was building his first passive house, and you talked about a lot of details and stuff- Yeah

    [00:45:08] and what to look out for. That would be a resource I would go back to, to listen to. Yeah. Because it's, it's just, um, yeah, information about how, how, how to build a passive 

    [00:45:17] Matt: house, but- So, so on that, when, and off, well, extending yourself out, when you do get your first passive house, we'll record another podcast with you and you can ask us whatever you want, and we'll go through the same process with you.

    [00:45:28] But, hey, and this is a bit, I've got an idea. 

    [00:45:30] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:45:31] Matt: I think we should do a bit of role playing here. So being you, let's call ourselves a couple 

    [00:45:36] Hamish: We'd make such a cute couple. 

    [00:45:37] Matt: I know. Um, we did get to share a single bed last night, which was cute. We got a bit cold and 

    [00:45:41] Hamish: huddled. 

    [00:45:41] Matt: Tummy-tucked. Um, but, uh, I wanted, James, I want t- to play this little game right now where we've come to you to build a healthy, comfortable home, and I want you to try sell it to us.

    [00:45:54] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:45:55] James: Yeah. 

    [00:45:55] Hamish: Yeah. We, we... N- And we've come to you because we want a sustainable home. Yeah, 

    [00:45:58] Matt: yeah, we want a 

    [00:45:58] Hamish: sustainable home. We want, we want a [00:46:00] sustainable home. 

    [00:46:00] James: Yeah. 

    [00:46:01] Hamish: James, can you build me a sustainable home? 

    [00:46:02] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:46:03] James: I absolutely believe that we can build a, um, you 

    [00:46:06] Hamish: know- No, not believe, I can. We can. We can do that.

    [00:46:07] Yeah, 

    [00:46:07] James: we can. We can. We can build a sustainable home. Um- How 

    [00:46:10] Matt: much is it gonna cost? 

    [00:46:12] Hamish: No, ignore cost, 'cause cost, cost, cost- 

    [00:46:13] Matt: No, no, no, no, but th- th- these are questions clients ask. Okay. I'm gonna... What's it- 

    [00:46:16] James: You guys have me nervous. 

    [00:46:18] Matt: Yeah, this is the whole point of it. Because someone's gonna come to you- I 

    [00:46:20] James: did not expect this whatsoever.

    [00:46:22] Matt: Right. I didn't till two minutes ago. But they, like, w- yeah, I, we want a comfortable home We like who you are as a person. 

    [00:46:30] Hamish: Yeah, we love what you do. We've seen, we've seen, you know, I've seen your videos over the last six months. 

    [00:46:34] James: Yeah. 

    [00:46:34] Hamish: Really resonate with your business philosophy and your values. Your team sound awesome, quality of work sounds really great.

    [00:46:40] If you don't have 

    [00:46:40] Matt: an architect- 

    [00:46:41] Hamish: I'd really love to build a sustainable home with you ... 

    [00:46:43] Matt: you're our first point of call. 

    [00:46:44] James: Yeah. Yeah, well, I guess we have a, a particular process where we work with the clients, and we put them in contact with an architect that we feel would suit for a high performance or a passive house, and we would work through those steps.

    [00:46:58] Hamish: What's passive h- what's passive house? I've never heard of that before. 

    [00:46:59] James: [00:47:00] Um, so passive house is looking at all the different elements, um, high-performance windows, um, high-performance insulation, uh, airtight, thermal bridge-free. 

    [00:47:13] Hamish: HRV. 

    [00:47:14] James: HRV airtight. Yeah, HRV, mechanical ventilation. What 

    [00:47:17] Matt: does all that mean, though?

    [00:47:18] Like, what, 

    [00:47:18] Hamish: uh, do- Yeah, I mean, what, what's the benefit? Is, is that a su- ... I, I de- that sounds too, that sounds expensive ... is that, is that a sustainable home? It 

    [00:47:22] James: does sound expensive. Um, I would say that is a s- a sustainable home because the home is healthy. You live 

    [00:47:28] Hamish: in- I'm worried, I'm worried about, you said airtight, but I'm worried about an airtight home.

    [00:47:32] James: Uh, so yeah, obviously the c- the key part to protect the actual structure of the house is make it nice and airtight. Mm-hmm. And then you would balance that out with a mechanical heat recovery ventilation to ensure that the air is filtered. 

    [00:47:44] Hamish: Why can't I just open the windows? 

    [00:47:46] James: Because what about all the pesticides and the- 

    [00:47:48] Hamish: Oh, okay

    [00:47:49] how, you know, they're out 

    [00:47:50] James: in the atmosphere ... everything in the air that comes in, car fumes- 

    [00:47:52] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:47:52] James: and, and all of that. So- 

    [00:47:53] Hamish: Yeah, but I, I live in, I live on 20 acres. 

    [00:47:55] James: Do you live near vines? 

    [00:47:57] Hamish: Oh, yeah. Okay. 

    [00:47:58] James: Well- Glyphosate. [00:48:00] That's a whole nother part. 

    [00:48:01] Hamish: I, I guess I, you know what, I was, I was getting to the point that, um, all this is great.

    [00:48:06] I think sometimes, like... And, and we've done it too, where we've tried to get someone on board with it, and they're not interested in all that. 

    [00:48:14] James: Yeah. 

    [00:48:14] Hamish: Like, energy efficiency, health, comfort. 

    [00:48:18] James: Yeah. 

    [00:48:19] Hamish: Like- 

    [00:48:19] James: And that's, 

    [00:48:20] Matt: and that's very much our- I don't think I've ever talked about any of those, any of those messaging.

    [00:48:23] So, like, I, for you, you'd be like, "Do you want to sustainable home?" Like, what does sustainable mean to you? 

    [00:48:28] Hamish: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:48:29] Matt: Like, you make, get them to talk. So like, oh, health and comfort, like what would you feel like a, a health and comfortable home feels like? What do you think- Like 

    [00:48:36] Hamish: energy efficient.

    [00:48:36] Yeah. Oh, great. Do you know what? There's a really easy way to do that. Yeah. We can build you a certified passive house. Yeah. Oh, what's that? I, 

    [00:48:41] James: I w- Yeah ... I would probably, like, use our example of health of our family in the universe- Yeah, yeah ... and that type of thing. Yeah. Um, I guess is a bit of an angle to work to as well- 

    [00:48:51] Hamish: Yeah

    [00:48:51] James: because y- you speak to a lot of people and... 

    [00:48:54] Hamish: Yeah, fa- families. Yeah. Families and health is a, is a, is a huge one. 

    [00:48:57] James: Yeah. 

    [00:48:58] Hamish: Yeah. So I didn't mean to put you on the spot. 

    [00:48:59] James: [00:49:00] No, that's all right. I'm sweating a little bit 

    [00:49:02] Hamish: now. No, I think, and, and I think this is the actual challenge of trying to sell passive house. Um, one, one of the things that I'd really encourage you to do is really understand the modeling and understand how you can use that, even as the preliminary PH- PHPP As an optimization tool.

    [00:49:18] I say that the PHPP, like I've said it a thousand times, it's an optimization tool. It's optimizing cost, but it's also optimizing the level of comfort and energy efficiency that these clients are after. 'Cause not everyone wants a passive house. 

    [00:49:32] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:49:32] Hamish: But I'm saying that's fine, awesome, but I also need to understand how thick your insulation is, the kind of windows that we're putting in.

    [00:49:40] We're always gonna put a ventilation system in it, so we're al- 100% of the time gonna put an HRV in, because we're always gonna make it reasonably airtight. Um, but I'd also wanna understand how much air conditioning that we wanna put in. 'Cause I don't wanna just shoot from the hip and say, "Well, we'll put a 20 kwat- kilowatt system in," 'cause we don't need it.

    [00:49:56] Need it, 

    [00:49:57] James: yeah. 

    [00:49:58] Hamish: There's this theme of resilience [00:50:00] throughout what, our conversation today. You know, your, your footy career and then, you know, you definitely picking yourself up after you've fallen over and, and, and, and continuing on. We've got this, uh, ep- uh, this, um- 

    [00:50:14] Matt: Segment 

    [00:50:15] Hamish: You've really You threw me out here, man.

    [00:50:17] I had this whole, like, narrative in my head of how I was gonna present this today. It's the Mindful Moment It's the 

    [00:50:21] Matt: Mindful Mo- 

    [00:50:21] Hamish: MGIT Mindful Moment. It's Australia's biggest, um, apprenticeship provider, uh, who are a sponsor of our podcast. I think there's a lot, uh, there's a lot of, um, I don't know, lessons for, for any apprentice that, that's listening to this conversation that you, you might have this idea in your head of where you might be going.

    [00:50:42] Like for you, it was footy, right? And then all of a sudden that's taken away from you. And the ability to then pick yourself up and move on and, and go in a different direction, I think that's a really important lesson for any apprentice. 'Cause you might go into a job and it not work out, or it not be what you'd imagined it [00:51:00] to be.

    [00:51:00] Matt: You might have got sacked and moved on, like. 

    [00:51:01] Hamish: Sacked, redundant. Yeah. You know, you might have decided that, you know, it's too far travel or whatever, but that's okay. But it's about, um, sticking to, I guess, what your goals are. And I think you've, you've really proven to us today that you can change career paths, you can be standing on the edge of, you know, wanting to quit, and then turning it around again.

    [00:51:24] I think there's a lot, there's a lot of lessons in that. So thank you so much for coming on today. Uh, it's been really great chatting with you and, you know, I'm sure I'll speak for myself and Matt, if you've got any questions about anything to do with trying to land your first passive house- Call Jackson

    [00:51:38] client, call Jackson. Yeah. 

    [00:51:42] James: Uh, thanks for coming on, mate. Thanks, mate. Thank you, [00:52:00] gents.

Matthew Carland
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