We Got Challenged on Everything We Believe

“They’ll own you for 10 years”.

That’s the bit a lot of builders learn too late. Once you sign, you’re tied to that client, that site, and every decision you made under pressure, even the ones you thought were minor at the time.

Building isn’t a product. It’s a relationship with a warranty. So if you pick the wrong client, you don’t just get a painful build. You get a decade-long tail of calls, emails, “quick questions”, and the slow drip of stress that comes with being on the hook.

That opening truth is where this whole conversation starts, but it doesn’t stay there. It widens out into the stuff the industry argues about in group chats, on site, and in Instagram comments.

First up, the viral “circus build” videos.

Everyone’s seen them. Plastic under concrete that was always going to tear. Steel so thin it makes you blink. Risers and pipes doing whatever they want. A bloke hanging out of a tree branch while the pour keeps going.

It’s funny until it isn’t, because that’s what the public thinks building is. That’s the standard they compare you to. Then they look at a builder who actually cares and ask why it costs more, why it takes longer and why you’re being fussy.

That’s where good builders start second-guessing themselves.

Am I doing something wrong here.

The next thread is social media, and it’s a good reality check. Hamish asks the question straight. When you see us online, does it feel like we’re trying to convince you to build a Passive House?

Joel’s answer is the compliment most builders want. It doesn’t feel like selling. It feels like educating.

That’s the difference. Sharing your journey and your standards is not the same as forcing a badge on someone. The best content in construction doesn’t shout “buy this”. It shows “this is how I run my business”, and lets people decide what they want to copy.

But Joel also names the disconnect that sits underneath a lot of this.

Sometimes it feels like a rocket scientist talking to a mechanic. You might both use bolts, but you’re doing very different things with yours.

That’s not a dig. It’s a reminder that the market has layers. There’s premium work, there’s the middle, and there’s the bottom end where the basics aren’t even happening. Even builders who are doing decent work can still feel far away from the worst of it.

So how do you lift the bottom?

The conversation goes where it always goes. Education and regulation. Licensing for carpenters. Ongoing upskilling like other professions. New standards come in, you do the training, you keep your ticket. If you keep cutting corners, you lose the right to operate.

Yes, it adds cost in the short term.

But the counterpoint is simple. Call-backs cost. Rework costs. Mould costs. Water damage costs. And the stress of knowing you delivered something you wouldn’t want your own family living in costs the most.

That’s the emotional cost of caring.

Hamish puts it plainly. He’d rather go to bed knowing it was done right than chase every last dollar. Matt frames it as de-risking. If you build well, you’re less likely to get the tap on the shoulder years later saying the roof has to come off because it’s mouldy and rotting.

Joel then puts forward a normal scenario. A 1990s brick veneer with blow-in ceiling insulation, no wall insulation, single glazed windows, and no seals. What’s the first thing you’d fix?

The answers are refreshingly unsexy.

Start with draught proofing. Seal the gaps. Stop the house bleeding comfort.

Then ceiling insulation, properly done. Then ventilation that actually goes outside. Rangehoods and bathroom fans ducted externally, not dumping moisture into the roof space like it’s still normal. Timed bathroom fans so they run long enough after showers, because everyone turns the fan off the second the light goes off, and kids don’t turn it on at all.

You don’t need to be a building science nerd to understand that part. You live in a moisture factory. You breathe, shower and cook. If wet air doesn’t leave, it turns into mould and condensation.

From there, wall insulation becomes the surprise win. Blow-in insulation into existing wall cavities can be cheaper than people expect and changes the feel of a home fast. But as Hamish points out, once you change one thing, you change the physics, so you need to think about ventilation and air quality too.

That’s where the Passive House label gets reframed in plain language.

You don’t have to be a tree-hugging hippie to want comfort and health. You can still love your V8s. 

We finish on a solid reminder for builders. It’s okay to step back. It’s okay to realise you don’t like being the builder. It’s okay to run a smaller business. It’s okay to define success by profit, lifestyle, and sanity, not just turnover.

Because if a client will own you for 10 years, you want to be sure it’s a job you can live with.

LINKS:

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Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:  www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

• FULL TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Joel: Righto, welcome back to the Mindful Builder, except today, unfortunately for the listeners, Hamish and Matt have lost control of their own podcast. I'm Joel from HeidiBuild, and for one episode only, this is now the Mindless Builder. There'll be no blower door tests, no thermal bridges, and most importantly, no one saying building envelope.

  [00:00:17] We are here to find out who Hamish and Matt actually are, whether Passive House builders can still be fun at a barbecue- ... and how two blokes this nerdy somehow built a podcast people actually listen to. So strap yourself in This could be educational, but I'll do my best to make sure it isn't. This one is for the rest of us builders and tradesmen.

  [00:00:38] All 

  [00:00:39] Hamish: right. We can Brilliant. I love that. 

  [00:00:40] Matt: So just for reference, Hamish has got his me- uh, Joel's meta glasses on for that. So, uh- 

  [00:00:47] Hamish: I, I actually had the idea before, uh, I was chat- chatting with Joel yesterday. I go, "Wouldn't it be cool if we all had meta glasses on and we're all just looking at each other without the cameras?"

  [00:00:56] Just be like... 

  [00:00:56] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:00:56] Hamish: It'd be sick. And that would, that would be hilarious. It'd be an 

  [00:00:58] Joel: editing nightmare. 

  [00:00:59] Hamish: It would be [00:01:00] absolute editing nightmare. 

  [00:01:01] Joel: Righto, boys. We're gonna warm up with some rapid fire questions. Okay. All right. We're just gonna get things moving here. Who's the bigger building science nerd? 

  [00:01:09] Hamish: Matt.

  [00:01:10] Joel: Yeah, I'd probably say. That was convincing. Yeah. Yeah. The bigger building science nerd. Yeah. Yeah. Is that because of your science background? 

  [00:01:15] Matt: I love data. I just- Yeah ... numbers make sense to me. 

  [00:01:18] Joel: Yeah. Okay. 

  [00:01:18] Matt: Fa- You- Yeah ... you s- 

  [00:01:19] Joel: you, you went to university as well 

  [00:01:21] Hamish: Yeah, but I didn't do, yeah 

  [00:01:21] Matt: Hamish has got a very good idea.

  [00:01:23] Like, we're both... Like, we're talking, like, minuscule difference here. 

  [00:01:26] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do, do you know what, though? Like, I think I, I get all of it at a really, really high level and I, and I can ans- I could sit and answer most questions, but do you know where I struggle? I actually forget the numbers. 

  [00:01:36] Joel: He'll get into the granular 

  [00:01:37] Hamish: stuff.

  [00:01:37] The, the numbers and the granular stuff, like the- I'll get 

  [00:01:40] Joel: technical. Yeah. 

  [00:01:40] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:01:41] Joel: All right. Who would last longer on a volume build site before having a mentee B? 

  [00:01:45] Hamish: Matt. I, I, I would, I would last longer, I reckon. 

  [00:01:47] Joel: I definitely- You would last longer. Yeah. 

  [00:01:48] Hamish: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

  [00:01:49] Joel: 100%, Hamish. '

  [00:01:50] Hamish: Cause I, I could throw a tool belt around and I'd, I'd actually enjoy throwing frames up.

  [00:01:53] Joel: Yeah. You'd, you'd, you 

  [00:01:53] Hamish: could- I'd enjoy, I'd enjoy the intensity ... 

  [00:01:55] Joel: you could let go of all the passive house-y stuff- 

  [00:01:58] Hamish: Oh, actually, 

  [00:01:59] Joel: no. So- ... a little bit. Like, [00:02:00] just if you were framing, could you get in that framing headspace? 

  [00:02:01] Hamish: I could get in the frame headspace for sure- Yeah ... 'cause I just, I'd, I'd look at it- But could you 

  [00:02:04] Matt: just whack it up?

  [00:02:05] Are we talk- So what concept we talking? Are we, are we- 

  [00:02:07] Joel: Volume build. 

  [00:02:08] Matt: Oh, wait, wait. Like, where that's not my- The opposite end to you guys ... but that, yeah, but that's... No, but there's two parts of... So what I've learned to understand about volume build is like- 

  [00:02:15] Hamish: He's, he's the more detailed guy ... 

  [00:02:17] Matt: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, I think I'm figuring it out now.

  [00:02:18] Yeah, but like vol- volume build, like, as I've learnt listening to SBA podcasts, like they have a role, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Are we talking about what is within their, their brief? This is rapid 

  [00:02:28] Hamish: fire, Matt. Rapid fire 

  [00:02:29] Joel: questions. Yeah, but see, just the way he's answering it, definitely you'd last longer on a volume build site.

  [00:02:33] Matt: Yeah. No, but, but, but there's like, are we talking about just a l- 'cause I know some people that care that their volume builder work and the work they do, but some just don't give two shits and throw the... What scale are we talking here? 

  [00:02:41] Joel: Well, I think maybe just the generic volume builder, you know, stereotypical build, which is just nothing like what you guys do.

  [00:02:48] Yeah. That's the point of it. 

  [00:02:49] Hamish: I, I reckon I could, I could throw a belt on and I could, I... Like, couple of weeks, I'd, I'd actually pr- enjoy the intensity and pace. I don't know about my body. Do you reckon 

  [00:02:56] Joel: you could? 

  [00:02:58] Matt: I, yeah, I used to, I used to- You reckon you could throw a, throw a tool 

  [00:02:59] Joel: belt on 

  [00:02:59] Matt: [00:03:00] and- I, I... Look, I'd work it out again.

  [00:03:02] I'd be, like, probably a third-year apprentice. 

  [00:03:03] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:03:04] Matt: But like, I... If you want me to cut, if you want me to move fast, I can move fast. Yeah. Okay. So when I, I was like, that's, we work that speed. Do you find that 

  [00:03:10] Joel: cathartic ever, like, doing 

  [00:03:12] Matt: that, like- Yeah, I used to when I was young and fit. 

  [00:03:13] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:03:14] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay.

  [00:03:15] I, I don't, I don't enjoy, I didn't enjoy being a carpenter. 

  [00:03:17] Hamish: Who'd be the first 

  [00:03:18] Joel: one to mention, mention thermal bridge in a pub conversation? 

  [00:03:22] Hamish: Probably Matt. 

  [00:03:23] Joel: No, I reckon 

  [00:03:25] Matt: it's you. I know, I reckon it might be you. Because I, I just give you the numbers. The, is it the sign number? Yeah, 

  [00:03:29] Hamish: and she maybe... I, do you know what?

  [00:03:31] I- Like you 

  [00:03:31] Joel: said, big 

  [00:03:32] Hamish: ideas ... so do you know what? I was actually at the pub the other day with some buddies of mine, and they're, one's a builder, one's, um, uh, he's a, he's a camp coordinator, and I was actually looking at one of the aluminum windows and it was cold at night. So I'm like, "That's probably got condensation on the inside."

  [00:03:45] I was thinking 

  [00:03:46] Matt: in my brain- You know the Carlton beer draft? Yeah. He's like, he's like talking about how that's condensating. 

  [00:03:53] Hamish: There's a dew point from inside out. Let me explain to you what, uh, 

  [00:03:54] Joel: condensation is. You just can't turn it off. What the dew point is, yeah. It's like when a chippy sees a miter that's slightly off.

  [00:03:58] Hamish: Oh. "

  [00:03:58] Joel: Oh, that's annoying." Yeah. Which y- [00:04:00] that would probably get you as well. That'd bug 

  [00:04:01] Hamish: me, yeah. 

  [00:04:01] Joel: Who's more likely- Just like your t- just like your t- ... to ruin a barbecue by over-explaining ventilation? I reckon neither 

  [00:04:07] Matt: because we don't explain it. 

  [00:04:09] Joel: No? Hmm. I actually don't think, well, do, do- Does it happen at barbecues and stuff for you guys?

  [00:04:13] Do, do people like- No ... you know, it's this- No, I know, like doctors, when doctors go to a, a barbecue they're like, "Oh, because I've got this sore on my foot." You know, like... 

  [00:04:20] Hamish: Do you know what? I, I think that I'm a lot better these days of reading a room. 

  [00:04:26] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:04:27] Hamish: I think if you would've g- got me 5 or 10 years ago, you know when I used to do CrossFit, right?

  [00:04:32] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:04:32] Hamish: Right? 

  [00:04:33] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:04:33] Hamish: I was telling everyone about fucking CrossFit, and then- 

  [00:04:36] Joel: I think that's the prerequisite for CrossFit ... 

  [00:04:37] Hamish: and then I realized not many people gave a fuck about it. Yeah. And then I think my lessons from that are not everyone cares about the type of buildings that I build. 

  [00:04:44] Matt: But I think that's the reason why we build and, and we get such high hit rate of people wanting to build the way we do, is because we don't talk about it.

  [00:04:50] Yeah. And I think we don't over... Because the hardest part t- trying to get your first passive house or better-built house is people want to talk too much detail, and that's not [00:05:00] what they, clients want to hear. Yeah. They just want to hear fresh filter there. Go over their head. Yeah. Bang. Done. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, okay.

  [00:05:04] We can, we, we can solve that problem. All right. Yeah. Next job sort of thing. 

  [00:05:07] Joel: All right, so I can, I'm safe to invite both of you to a barbecue then. 

  [00:05:10] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:05:10] Hamish: I think so. 

  [00:05:10] Joel: Yeah. I, I 

  [00:05:11] Hamish: don't drink, but, um- 

  [00:05:12] Matt: Is Andre going 

  [00:05:13] Joel: to be there? That's all right. Yeah, Andre's there. Talking conversation on the windows and double bridging.

  [00:05:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andre gets upset if I have a barbecue and he's not there, so, uh, now this one's got me stumped. Who's the bigger tight ass? 

  [00:05:23] Hamish: Hmm. 

  [00:05:26] Joel: I don't know 

  [00:05:26] Hamish: In which context? 

  [00:05:27] Joel: Yeah, that's a hard one, 'cause I don't know. With money. 

  [00:05:29] Hamish: Yeah, but in what context? Not like physically. 'Cause, 'cause I'll, 'cause I'll spend money on...

  [00:05:35] Like, I'll spend money on stuff which other people may not spend money on. 

  [00:05:39] Joel: Yeah. It's 

  [00:05:39] Hamish: why- But then, but then I- Like an, like an 

  [00:05:40] Joel: excavator. 

  [00:05:41] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:05:41] Joel: I couldn't give two shits. Yeah. I wouldn't give a fuck about that. 

  [00:05:43] Hamish: Yeah, but the thing is, I wouldn't go and spend money on clothes. Yeah. 'Cause I'm like, I've got, like, I've got 20 Sanctum Homes T-shirts in the, in the cupboard.

  [00:05:49] Yeah. Why don't I just wear that every day? But I... 

  [00:05:51] Joel: Yeah, I wouldn't. I- What about at work? Like, who, who do you think, with- out of you two, who runs, like, a tighter ship 

  [00:05:56] Matt: from a financial perspective? I hope Ham- Hamish, and I hope in a year that I... [00:06:00] That is me. 

  [00:06:00] Hamish: I feel like I'm, I'm not as tight as I need to be, though.

  [00:06:03] I, I 

  [00:06:03] Matt: reckon I'm getting better. No, no, no, you tighter ship. I don't... My- I think I'm getting better ... that's, I'm working on my financials and knowing them back to front. I think I'm getting 

  [00:06:06] Hamish: better. 

  [00:06:06] Matt: Okay. So in a year, I want, I, I hope if you ask me that question again, I can be like, "Yes, that's me." 

  [00:06:13] Joel: So, 'cause you're, you're quite science-y.

  [00:06:15] Yeah. But it's not translated to the- I just, it's in my head ... to the, to the financial reporting 

  [00:06:19] Matt: side. It's all here. 

  [00:06:21] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:06:21] Matt: Mm. I need to look at it here. Yeah. 

  [00:06:22] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:06:22] Matt: It's all my brain. And I, so now I'm working on models to understand it, and again, gone way too far. 

  [00:06:28] Joel: Th- this is too, supposed to be rapid fire, but I'm actually quite curious about, about that, 'cause I reckon I really got that wrong.

  [00:06:35] Like, I would've thought, like, from a financial perspective, like, just your general, you know, just interacting with you generally, I would've thought you'd have been like fucking 

  [00:06:42] Matt: all across it. I know it. I can have the conversation, but not to what I think is adequate enough for a small business. Yeah. 

  [00:06:47] Joel: Yeah.

  [00:06:47] Matt: I think it's the most important thing that I've negated for years. 

  [00:06:51] Hamish: It's the most important thing that I think both of us aren't doing. 

  [00:06:53] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Well... And, and w- 

  [00:06:54] Joel: Yeah, right. 

  [00:06:55] Matt: Yeah, and I think, yeah, like, again, y- we can build a house. We know, like, my [00:07:00] cost tracking has been nonexistent on projects for price, for projects for years, but I know it's been profitable.

  [00:07:05] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:07:06] Matt: Like, I've, I know you, you shouldn't just look at a P&L, uh, at the end and see if you, what your net is, and take that as that's what you made. Yeah. But, like, I need to now, like, I'm starting to get my head around monthly WIPs and, and cash flow- Yeah ... forecasts and budgeting forecasts for 24. WIP's 

  [00:07:19] Joel: important as a builder.

  [00:07:20] Yeah. 

  [00:07:21] Hamish: Yeah. I think both of us have realized in the last 12 to 18 months, um, our, you know, cup-half-full attitude, ADHD kind of energy can only get you so far. 

  [00:07:31] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:07:31] Hamish: And I think a lot of builders realize that- I mean, you probably realized that at some point as well. That it's like- And this is where AI's helped me

  [00:07:38] I, my, my, you know, y- we, I would say the three of us operate a lot on our gut feel. Yeah. And I'd say 80% of the time it's right. Yeah. So you'd bet on that most times. Yeah. But I kinda feel like it's that 20% that we- they're unsure of, that's probably the difference between me having a really successful business- Mm

  [00:07:55] versus just a good business. 

  [00:07:57] Joel: Yeah, 

  [00:07:57] Hamish: okay. And that's my focus now. Yeah. And I know you're the 

  [00:07:59] Matt: same. Yeah. Well, [00:08:00] I know this, like hopefully in the next 24 months I really scale to where I wanna be, but I can't do that without not knowing my numbers back to front. Yeah. Mm. So I made a decision early this year that I was gonna turn myself into, like, a CFO of my own business.

  [00:08:12] Yeah. Like, corporate stupid talk, but ultimately it was to make sure that I knew the financials. And I've gone and learned building science back to front. I've gone and learned marketing back to front. So I know I can do it, I just need to put time and effort into it and champion it. So that's become my focus for the next...

  [00:08:27] That, that's it. And, and this is why I say AI is really helpful, not creating models and stuff. I know you can do that, but it's a really good learning platform to be like, "Hey, I don't understand how WIP works. What is it? Can you talk it down in layman terms?" Yeah. You can explain to me WIP as 

  [00:08:39] Joel: a builder. Yes.

  [00:08:39] Matt: Yeah. Can you just- And I- ... start talking in, in, in, as if you're talking to, like, a 15-year-old 

  [00:08:44] Joel: This is good, 'cause it's actually makes you guys more normal builders. Yeah. 'Cause otherwise the rest of us kinda see you as this d- different sort of- No, no, we're not ... level, but that's a, that's a normal builder thing that you guys are doing- Yeah

  [00:08:52] is probably not where you think you ought to be with your understanding of numbers. Can we speak about it? So I'd, I'd say that I'm actually pretty good with my numbers. [00:09:00] Yeah. Um, just the way my brain works, like, accounting has always made sense to me. Yeah. Um, and I've always been interested in, in P&Ls and stuff like that.

  [00:09:09] Yeah. But I could never make- my P&Ls and my balance sheets and everything w- make fucking sense when I was a builder. Mm. I was like, and every time I did, I'm like, "This is such a bad business." Yeah. So, but now as a trade, it's so much easier. 

  [00:09:24] Hamish: Yeah, 

  [00:09:25] Joel: okay. I find it heaps easier, 'cause WIP fucks you up. 

  [00:09:28] Hamish: So, so let 

  [00:09:28] Joel: me- WIP messes with your reporting.

  [00:09:30] Hamish: Can I, can I actually ask you- Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely it does. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause you might have half a million dollars in the bank at June 30, and then your, your account might go, "Oh, look at all the money you've made." And then next week it might all go back out the door again. 

  [00:09:42] Joel: That's why you need to account for WIP.

  [00:09:43] Yeah. 

  [00:09:43] Hamish: Yep. Absolutely. And then what's your, what's your cash in advance position like for 

  [00:09:45] Joel: all this? And for the other builders and tradesmen out there that don't know what WIP is, it's work in progress. Yeah. So basically, it's stuff that you, you might have to do, like in the future, right? Like, um- Yeah, what's 

  [00:09:55] Matt: left over.

  [00:09:55] You have, that you haven't... Yeah, have you got too much money in the door that there's more [00:10:00] expenses to come out than what you've already, that you can charge for? 

  [00:10:02] Joel: Yeah. Yeah, and I seriously recommend any builder, like go on ChatGPT, ask it about WIP. Yep. Like- There's a really- And it's not WHIP. It's work in progress.

  [00:10:09] W- 

  [00:10:09] Matt: So there's a really good webinar online from these accountants in Queensland. They do a month, they do, they do a monthly webinar, and they did one on WIP. They've done a few of them, and that's where I started. And then just take this, just learn one thing at a time. Yeah. Don't overcomplicate it. If you...

  [00:10:24] Don't spend your time on AI, spend your time on this shit. 

  [00:10:26] Hamish: You said a really interesting thing before. Yeah. Can I just, can I just touch on it? You, you are a licensed builder and have been- Yes ... a builder, builder where you've built lots of homes, but you just said now you're a tradesman- 

  [00:10:35] Joel: Yeah ... 

  [00:10:35] Hamish: or trades person.

  [00:10:36] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:10:37] Hamish: So you're- That's 

  [00:10:37] Joel: my business now. 

  [00:10:38] Hamish: Yeah, right, okay. I, 

  [00:10:38] Joel: I don't work as the head contractor anymore. I work for other builders. Right. 

  [00:10:41] Matt: Do you need your license at all? Could you just get rid of it? 

  [00:10:44] Joel: Um, I, I could, but I've got, say, Carrumburra that I'm gonna build. Yeah. Um, I've got, um- I can't wait 

  [00:10:52] Hamish: to be invited over by the way.

  [00:10:52] Is that your, 

  [00:10:53] Joel: is that your house? That'll be sick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna build it. We're not sure whether we're gonna keep it long-term or what we're gonna do. It's kind of [00:11:00] the financial situation's gonna depend on what we do there. How 

  [00:11:03] Hamish: much land do you have there? 

  [00:11:04] Joel: Just six acres. Yeah.

  [00:11:05] Jesus. It's enough. Oh, like as in like- Car- yeah, but, yeah, but Carr- We call it a farm, but it's not a farm ... 

  [00:11:09] Hamish: Ca- Carr- Carrumburra though, like is 

  [00:11:11] Joel: like- Is nothing. 

  [00:11:13] Hamish: Six acres is nothing ... it's, it's, like six acres is like a- Would you build a passive house? ... drop of interest. 

  [00:11:16] Joel: Would I build a passive house there? No.

  [00:11:17] Why not? I can't afford it. I, I can barely afford to build a fucking house. Like, I'm doing it as cheap as I can, and honestly, man, I just don't think it's gonna get me the value back- Yeah ... if I do need to sell it. I'm not in a position- But you've got some good quality windows ... financially where I can kind of lean into that.

  [00:11:33] I did build a house in the past where I lent into it and stuff. Yeah. And, and it worked and everything, but I'm just not there anymore. I'm- 

  [00:11:39] Matt: Yeah, you're starting... You've almost started again. 

  [00:11:41] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. So we're sort of, we're just like, "Look, if we can do this, let's just do it. Let's just..." And I actually wanna be like, "Hey, can I build a good quality, cheap house?"

  [00:11:49] Matt: Mm. Yeah. 

  [00:11:50] Joel: Right? And that's what I'm gonna try and do. Will you 

  [00:11:51] Matt: build it yourself though, yeah? Your team? 

  [00:11:52] Joel: Yeah, so I was gonna get a builder, but I really tried speaking to a few guys, and I guess it just didn't kinda take off, and maybe it wasn't feeling right for me- Yeah ... so it [00:12:00] didn't happen. Yeah. 

  [00:12:00] Matt: That's... But, but yeah, okay 

  [00:12:03] Joel: We're gonna keep going 'cause we've got other stuff to talk about.

  [00:12:04] Okay. But who has the more cooked client story, and do you have the balls to share it? 

  [00:12:11] Matt: I've spoken about mine once. 

  [00:12:13] Hamish: I've spoken about mine as well. 

  [00:12:14] Matt: Yeah? 

  [00:12:15] Hamish: I've had, I've had a couple. You go. 

  [00:12:17] Matt: Yeah. I had the one, I had, I had the one that I've spoken about. I just lost control of them during COVID. Actually, so, and it got to a point where, like, I walked in on their job site on the, during COVID, and there was a bag of coke on the ground that they'd been partying on the weekend.

  [00:12:30] Empty. Oh. Empty bag, empty bag. Yeah. I also had a client that when I was, uh, I wasn't actually my own business. They were a spoilt little asshole, and when they didn't get their way, they would sort of damage things on the site until I- 

  [00:12:43] Joel: Jesus Christ. Well, see, the, in, on both of those stories, that's... I don't know if people realize, like, you possess that site.

  [00:12:51] That's your site. Yeah, I 

  [00:12:52] Matt: know, and that's why I lost control- Yeah, it's like- ... of it. But now I'm, but now I d- I vet my clients. Like, whilst the client will decide they work with us, we also pick them now [00:13:00] too. So, like, I've, I've gone through that. Mm. 

  [00:13:01] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:13:02] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:13:02] Hamish: Yeah. I, I mean, I, I talked about mine recently. So we were, um, up in a project in, in the hills, near the Dandenongs, and, um, it was a reno extension We, uh, started the project, did demo.

  [00:13:14] There was a long weekend that came, and we came back on the Tuesday, and the clients had moved in on site, set up these ramshackled like they moved into a bus on site. The kids were in this sort of- 

  [00:13:24] Joel: No ... 

  [00:13:25] Hamish: like they ended up camping on site for the duration of the build. 

  [00:13:28] Joel: What a nightmare. 

  [00:13:29] Hamish: And at the time I'm like, I really wanted this job.

  [00:13:33] I was probably recently licensed, and I'm like, "Oh, this is a cool job. This is what I want to be doing." Kind of just let it go. And as you can imagine, it just turned to shit. 

  [00:13:42] Joel: Yeah, man. Oh, I swear to God, if there's one piece of advice I give new builders, it's just don't be too keen to do your first fucking job.

  [00:13:49] They're gonna own you for 10 years. 

  [00:13:50] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:13:51] Matt: Yeah. That, I 

  [00:13:52] Joel: have a godly- And they all do 

  [00:13:52] Matt: it. 

  [00:13:52] Joel: We all did it. 

  [00:13:53] Matt: I- I have a 

  [00:13:53] Hamish: god. Oh, mate, we've... Yeah. Look, and, and look, I, I reckon, I, I don't want to poopoo the clients too much, but I allowed that to [00:14:00] happen. 

  [00:14:00] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:14:00] Hamish: That was m- that's all on me. That- But a 

  [00:14:01] Joel: lot of, a lot of- 

  [00:14:02] Hamish: That is all on me

  [00:14:02] Joel: a lot of issues that builders deal with is what they allow to happen. Yeah. 

  [00:14:05] Hamish: That's on me. 

  [00:14:05] Joel: You're a head contractor 

  [00:14:06] Hamish: for a reason. That's on me. 

  [00:14:07] Matt: So I ha- I say to anyone, if you, if there's a problem, look at yourself first. Yeah. So usually I will always blame myself first, then I'll blame my team. Yeah. I will not, like the last resort is the architect or the client.

  [00:14:18] I 

  [00:14:18] Hamish: wouldn't even blame your team. Like you s- No, no, 

  [00:14:19] Matt: no, because, like, it's a natural step. I'll blame us first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, then the team. It's like look internally. Like us, yeah, internally. Yeah, yeah. And then I will then, it's then if- 

  [00:14:26] Joel: I agree with that because it's like, and look, only worry about what you can control, right?

  [00:14:29] Yeah, 100%. 

  [00:14:30] Matt: So, 

  [00:14:30] Joel: um, so Matt, in your bio, you say you're, you're like not the best chippy on the tools. Whose idea was it to publish that? Because it's, I mean, it's obviously super honest, but it's also, I feel like it's terrible marketing. 

  [00:14:46] Matt: But I'm not, not- But you 

  [00:14:46] Joel: own it. Yeah, but you're 

  [00:14:47] Matt: not getting me on the tools.

  [00:14:49] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:14:49] Matt: Like, do you work on the tools on your s- jobs a lot of time? 

  [00:14:52] Joel: Not much anymore. Yeah. But that's kind of how I pitch myself. That's the- Like, I, I enjoy it. 

  [00:14:56] Matt: So I put, like, put people good in their [00:15:00] positions around you. Yeah. So I put amazing carpenters, uh, that are better at what they do than I do, so. 

  [00:15:05] Joel: So you don't identify as a carpenter so much anymore, but 

  [00:15:08] Matt: I feel like you do- I, I was never passionate about carpentry.

  [00:15:10] Yeah. I, it was a means of getting to where I wanted to be a builder. 

  [00:15:13] Joel: Means to an end. 

  [00:15:13] Matt: Yeah, yeah. 

  [00:15:14] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:15:14] Matt: Which is 

  [00:15:14] Joel: not, not- I love it. I love it. Yeah. But I 

  [00:15:16] Matt: love trades. I love trades, mate. So I have passion about trades. Okay. My dad's an electrician, brother's a plumber. Yeah. Like, so fair- like trades run in the family.

  [00:15:23] So I'm, I'm more as a trades passionate about, as we spoke about earlier today, lifting that, that floor up to start championing trades and ce- like we celebrate- Yeah ... when kids go to university and finish a degree. Let's fini- let's celebrate when they finish an apprenticeship. 

  [00:15:38] Joel: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Um- 

  [00:15:40] Matt: Why do you think it's bad marketing?

  [00:15:44] Joel: Oh, I don't know, like for, 'cause it's just I identify as a carpenter, and I think, you know, as a builder, like the ideal builder is like the carpenter builder, you know? Yeah. And it's, uh, not that it's like bad marketing, but it's like you're a carpenter. You've got that trade background and- [00:16:00] But you, you kinda own the fact that- I, I under- I under-

  [00:16:01] y- like he always says, like, "I'm terrible. I was a terrible 

  [00:16:02] Matt: carpenter" I understand it. I could sit and talk to anyone, tell you how to do it. I just can't do it myself. 

  [00:16:07] Joel: Yeah, that's fair. All right. Um, so did you guys... We're gonna talk a little bit about your origins. All right? Yeah. Did you guys meet on a webinar, or was it one of those sustainable builder arranged marriage deals?

  [00:16:18] Hamish: No. No. We... Ma- I think Matt slid into my DMs. 

  [00:16:21] Joel: Slid into the DMs. 

  [00:16:24] Hamish: Yeah. Slid in. Yeah. Mr. Slide Over One Night. It was during, it was during COVID. 

  [00:16:26] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Right. We were just chatting. Yeah. 

  [00:16:27] Joel: Was 

  [00:16:27] Matt: it? I think I had... I got my first Passive House and you were doing one. Yeah. I just asked you a few questions- Yeah ... and just 

  [00:16:32] Joel: did this.

  [00:16:33] Yeah. So you were the first in Passive House? 

  [00:16:35] Hamish: Oh, no, I think we both got our- Like- I think I got the first one on site. Yeah, I 

  [00:16:38] Matt: think you were like m- maybe, yeah, a month ahead, but you just got- Yeah ... your f- you'd just got your windows, and I just... Uh, you'd just installed your windows, I remember. Yeah. And I'd got my windows.

  [00:16:46] I'm like, "How did you do this detail?" Yeah. 

  [00:16:48] Hamish: Yeah. And I think, um, I think we both got our Passive House trades person qua- like certificate- Yeah, yeah ... whatever that fucking means- Yeah ... uh, at a very similar time, like '17 or '18. 

  [00:16:58] Joel: Okay. 

  [00:16:59] Hamish: But, um, [00:17:00] I do remember talking to you at one point saying, "I'm still trying to decide whether or not I wanna pivot my whole business" and I think at the time- Yeah

  [00:17:06] I'm like, "No, this is what I wanna do." 

  [00:17:08] Joel: Mm. 

  [00:17:09] Hamish: Yeah. So then I think we, well, I'm talking within months of each other. 

  [00:17:11] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:17:11] Joel: Yeah. So you, you guys... And that's probably how it all started for you, you both, 'cause you're on the Passive House side of things. 

  [00:17:18] Hamish: I think so. 

  [00:17:19] Matt: I think then what you also respect is when we did that course, social media w- or anything, there was no other information on building better whatsoever.

  [00:17:26] Yeah. So that was the only thing that you could learn to learn better. So when you do the course and you spend seven days, yeah, you drink the Kool-Aid because you're like, "Well, there's another way of doing something." Mm. Now, social media, you can log on and look up subfloor and find a better way of doing it 

  [00:17:39] Hamish: instantly.

  [00:17:40] But I think, I think the other thing that, that probably brought us together is that we at the same time, independent of each other, just really started sharing what we're doing. Yeah. 

  [00:17:47] Joel: Yeah, 

  [00:17:47] Hamish: okay. And, and we just started flogging on social media that this is what we were doing, and then I think it's all just...

  [00:17:53] Joel: That's kinda like how it sort of started with me and Hoppo being mates and stuff- Yeah. Yeah ... is like that social media thing. Yeah. You sorta end up connecting on there, [00:18:00] right? You 

  [00:18:00] Matt: share. Like we, we don't h- like I, I don't know, I've actually ironically probably become, I probably started to gatekeep a little bit more recently, not from, say, the group that we hang out with, but more from a wider s- wider thing because, like, I don't know, sometimes I feel that people just want...

  [00:18:15] Like, I've got some guy in my in- like inbox right now who's every wants every second detail detailed for him. I'm like, "Dude- Go do your job 

  [00:18:22] Joel: Yeah, 

  [00:18:23] Matt: yeah, yeah Like, I'm not... I don't work 

  [00:18:24] Hamish: for you. Yeah. 

  [00:18:24] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:18:25] Hamish: I, I'll, I won't, I won't go about, like, sketching up a design or something. No. I'll jump on and, and leave a voice note.

  [00:18:31] That's it. 

  [00:18:31] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm the same. I'm giving you the, I've given you the answers. Or my pet hate, and I fucking hate this, is when I tell them how to do something, "Here's the video," then they go do it completely different, and then go, "Oh, well, how do I fix it now?" I'm like, "I literally gave you- No ... I gave you the answer.

  [00:18:44] I actually- You're an asshole. I actually- Yeah ... gave you the answer- Yeah ... on what you're after. Yeah, yeah. But you tried to be too smart. 

  [00:18:49] Joel: Yeah. So but it's, it's really because you guys have been, you were sharing things on social media, so you kind of... I feel like you guys are championing, championing the movement a bit.

  [00:18:58] Hamish: Yeah, I f- I, I feel like we were [00:19:00] probably some of the f- I mean, Devon who's, who's here. Yeah. 

  [00:19:02] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:19:02] Hamish: Uh, he- 

  [00:19:04] Joel: Before us ... 

  [00:19:04] Hamish: well before us, like years before us. Yeah. Same with Justin O'Connor. 

  [00:19:07] Joel: But it, but it sort of takes the, the guys doing it. Like these guys- Yeah ... are selling products and- Yeah. But no, do- You know, obviously they're, they're science- We were just loud and 

  [00:19:14] Hamish: a bit louder Yeah, we were just, we were just louder I think.

  [00:19:15] Yeah. We were just louder. Yeah. 

  [00:19:16] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I think though, like, you know, and I think, I guess with the DeWalt thing, if you're selling a product, people i- immediately go, "Oh, yeah, but you, that's your motive." Whereas for you guys that's, like, not a motive. No. Like, you know, it's like you're just being yourselves.

  [00:19:31] Yeah. You really care about, you know, passive house building. Yeah. But have you ever thought like, "Fuck, why can't I just do normal builds?" Or have you ever thought about going and doing a normal build? Does it get- I'd make- I'm sure it gets dropped on you ... 

  [00:19:41] Hamish: I'd make more money I reckon. Yeah. It'd be easier. I just think that I know, like if I think about the risk profile of how we did things in the past and how we're doing things now, it just, then it's not worth it.

  [00:19:53] Matt: Yeah. I 

  [00:19:53] Hamish: think- And, and purely from a, from a building fabric point of view. Forget about ventilation, forget about your, your windows, forget [00:20:00] about your thermal bridges, forget about that shit. Wrapping your pr- And I'm not giving them a plug, but maybe I am the cheapest, um, insurance policy that you've got I reckon 

  [00:20:08] Matt: ventilation's not too far off considering the 

  [00:20:12] Hamish: code changes as well Well, okay, but, but, but, but okay, I, I'm, I'm just trying to not- Uh, in general

  [00:20:13] I'm just trying not to kinda h- you know, sit on the whole passive house thing. 

  [00:20:17] Joel: Mm. 

  [00:20:17] Hamish: But for me it's, it's- 

  [00:20:18] Joel: Reliability, like- ... 

  [00:20:19] Hamish: reliability, yeah. That's 

  [00:20:20] Joel: why I put it to it Yeah, 'cause that's probably a big thing is, like, the 10-year warranty. Like, people need to understand, as builders all, we're always thinking about, "Fuck, that house I just built, oh, it's fucking pissing down," which is one of these rooves that, you know, that we did on a two-degree pitch.

  [00:20:33] Like, you know? Mate, I've got- But you guys don't have that thing because everything's sealed. 

  [00:20:37] Hamish: Yeah ... I've got four projects, past projects at the moment that I'm, I'm working through where there's some kind of water something. 

  [00:20:43] Joel: Mm. 

  [00:20:43] Hamish: And they're well before we started doing the passive house stuff. Yeah. I don't know, if we did the same thing now it wouldn't be an issue.

  [00:20:49] Joel: Wouldn't have, have the problem. 

  [00:20:50] Hamish: And now we're working through it and there's, you know, some that was client's fault, some was our fault, some trade's faults. We're just getting in there and getting it sorted. 

  [00:20:58] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:20:59] Matt: Yeah, I think, I [00:21:00] think the thing is, like, what w- what is normal building? But ultimately, like, I sort out passive house originally as, as a de-risking profile for- Yeah

  [00:21:07] if I want to be a builder and I'm signing off on something for 10 years, I don't want to be coming back all the time at a minimum standard because ultimately I'm the one that pays for it. 

  [00:21:15] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't build a code build. 

  [00:21:16] Matt: Yeah, I c- like, yeah, I d- I, I couldn't do that, no I know, I know 

  [00:21:19] Hamish: too much about the risks associated with 

  [00:21:22] Matt: it as a builder And when you know too much in a legal sense, if anything was to happen they'd be like, "You know better."

  [00:21:25] Joel: Yeah, you know better. That's a big thing as a builder, like, you know better. You know better. 

  [00:21:28] Matt: Yeah. You know, but even if you, even if it was to code, you knew better and you didn't do it. 

  [00:21:33] Joel: Yeah. Okay. So 

  [00:21:33] Matt: we got no turning back now. Yeah. 

  [00:21:35] Joel: What was it like apprenti- apprenticeship-wise? Like, what were you exposed to as apprentices or- Quite the opposite.

  [00:21:40] Matt: Yeah. Yeah Renovations Like, yeah 

  [00:21:43] Joel: But like just- Code ... a small builder, you did an apprenticeship with? 

  [00:21:46] Matt: Yeah, yeah, just minimum code stuff. Yeah. But yeah, but like good jobs, but- It's 

  [00:21:49] Joel: still, still good. Like- 

  [00:21:50] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah ... the, like- No, like, oh, they were awesome. They do great work. 

  [00:21:53] Hamish: Yeah. I've got a, I've got a... I, I actually am not a qualified carpenter.

  [00:21:56] I just did... I, I was, uh, just jumped into it, and carpentry made [00:22:00] sense to me. Yeah. So I'd, I'd picked it up really easily. But my... I spent a lot of time doing decks and pergolas. 

  [00:22:06] Joel: Oh, yeah. 

  [00:22:07] Hamish: But I pitched a lot of roofs doing that. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I could, I could still jump in now and pitch a roof, no- Yeah ... no problem.

  [00:22:13] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:22:13] Hamish: Did a lot of renos extensions, and then I did about two years doing, like, factory fit outs and a bit of commercial stuff. So I've got this broad spectrum of skills that I can- Yeah ... draw on, which has allowed me to be able to problem solve. 

  [00:22:27] Joel: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Like, it's, it's, I think... So there was no real, like, passive house thing- No

  [00:22:35] like, back when you were apprentices and 

  [00:22:36] Matt: stuff? I, I looked, I looked as well future, like, what is actually into housing gonna look like? People are gonna want sustainability, whatever that meant at the time. Yeah. And this just fit the bill. Yeah. So I was also looking future, securing my, my business. 

  [00:22:48] Hamish: I wasn't anywhere near as calculated as that.

  [00:22:50] I'm like, "I'm a sustainable builder," and it didn't mean anything. I had no context around it. Yeah. I'm like... And then when I found Passive House, it actually allowed me to actually put it [00:23:00] against something because- Yeah ... it was so- Measurable ... prescriptive. 

  [00:23:04] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:23:04] Hamish: Yeah And I'm like, okay, well, this kind of fits the narrative that I'm giving about, you know, sustainability- Sustainability

  [00:23:09] energy consumption, health, and all that stuff. It was just a nice way to put a bow around it. 

  [00:23:13] Joel: Yeah. Yeah, I knew this was gonna happen, but I, like, we're gonna have to go off this because- Yeah. Okay ... what you guys are talking about as, like, sustainab- sustainability, Passive House, do you find, like, people are really interested in it and they're, like, drinking the Kool-Aid until they see the quote?

  [00:23:30] Matt: I just don't talk about it. So, so there's a number of miscon- like, so let's, let's start here with the cost conversation, because what are you comparing it to? Are you comparing it to the architectural jobs that you used to do? 

  [00:23:40] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:23:40] Matt: Because I- Yes ... would argue that they're gonna be very, very similar. Yeah.

  [00:23:44] If you're gonna compare it to a volume builder code builder house, well, we're not comparing apples and apples. 

  [00:23:48] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:23:48] Matt: So- 

  [00:23:49] Joel: Well, let's, let's talk actual numbers. I did, the last architectural house I did was about 56 grand for a square 

  [00:23:55] Hamish: $56,000 per square 

  [00:23:57] Matt: What's that convert to square meterage? Uh, that's divide [00:24:00] by nine Five, five 

  [00:24:00] Joel: odd grand.

  [00:24:01] Matt: That's pretty low at the moment. Look, well, that actually, that 

  [00:24:05] Joel: was 

  [00:24:05] Hamish: years ago. Oh, this is, this going per, per, per, per old school square. 

  [00:24:07] Joel: Yeah, old school square. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Sorry. So five, five- Is it 

  [00:24:11] Hamish: nine? Is it 

  [00:24:12] Joel: nine? So it's a five- Five and a bit ... five and a bit grand. 

  [00:24:12] Hamish: Yeah, but that was a long time ago.

  [00:24:13] Joel: That was a long time ago. Okay, so how- It's probably equivalent of about seven and a half or eight Yeah. Oh, yes. Which is what we would be building 

  [00:24:19] Matt: almost now. 

  [00:24:19] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:24:20] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:24:20] Hamish: Yeah, so I, I know our homes, uh, we could, we could- Which is, 

  [00:24:23] Joel: I still think is crazy, was crazy 

  [00:24:25] Hamish: because the times sucked We could, we could scratch it through, I reckon, at six and a half now, but I reckon it's more like seven, seven and a half.

  [00:24:30] Joel: But that's a new build. Like a renovation extension is gonna be- 

  [00:24:33] Matt: More expensive ... a lot more expensive, 

  [00:24:34] Joel: right? 

  [00:24:34] Hamish: Well, and again, I guess it depends. Yeah. Like it depends. 

  [00:24:37] Matt: Like the site. I think, I think the cost one's an interesting one because I think build- I just think it's just fucking expensive to build

  [00:24:43] buildings is just, yeah, let's just- It's expensive to build It is now I, I just think that we, we see so many people wanting an old- People won't like this comment but, "Oh, we've got to help those who can't afford to build blah blah blah blah blah." Ultimately, aren't we all trying to like... These are architects, builders, consultants, we're [00:25:00] all saying that, but we go still build a million to $2 million house because they can afford it.

  [00:25:04] Like, no one's spending their time helping the people that can't afford it because they don't pay the bills. Mm. And building is now expensive, like period. Like there's no... We live in an economy in a world right now where there's a war and shit is expensive everywhere. You go to supermarket, you go to fill up the car, you want to buy anything, it's expensive.

  [00:25:20] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:25:21] Matt: Like we, we... It's just not building. 

  [00:25:24] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:25:25] Matt: Like what does a car cost you? You know cars back to front compared to what they used to be 10 years ago. 

  [00:25:29] Joel: Shit loads. 

  [00:25:30] Matt: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So we don't complain about a car- They've gone through the roof, man ... or a fucking pen, like 10 bucks for a pen, like that used to be 50 cents.

  [00:25:36] Yeah. We don't complain about- I've got a 

  [00:25:36] Hamish: Hilux for sale by the way, if 

  [00:25:38] Joel: you want to- No idea ... look after your team, yeah. Don't, don't, don't do this 

  [00:25:39] Hamish: to me. 

  [00:25:39] Joel: I'm a sucker for a 

  [00:25:39] Matt: Hilux. Building, building is an easy sell, an easy media clickbait. 

  [00:25:44] Hamish: 2023, 49,000 K. Oh, stop it. Yeah. I'll just keep whispering. Just keep...

  [00:25:47] Karl's 

  [00:25:47] Joel: like, "Fuck's sake." It's only 

  [00:25:52] Hamish: $28,000. 

  [00:25:54] Matt: Get me back to my pre-heated 

  [00:25:55] Joel: car. Let's, let's talk, let's talk about cars, Karl. Comes, comes with, 

  [00:25:58] Hamish: comes with three stickers. 

  [00:25:59] Joel: All right. What's the [00:26:00] most un-passive house thing about... Oh, 'cause you've got a pretty nice... Both of you have nice houses that you've both renovated.

  [00:26:06] Matt: I have now. 

  [00:26:07] Hamish: I don't anymore. 

  [00:26:08] Matt: I've 

  [00:26:08] Joel: got a new one. So have you not 

  [00:26:09] Hamish: moved yet? 

  [00:26:09] Joel: Yeah. Okay. 

  [00:26:10] Matt: You can watch mine on Grand Designs, can't you? Yeah. That's, that's been on 

  [00:26:13] Hamish: Grand Designs. 

  [00:26:13] Joel: Yeah, yeah, I remember seeing that. Yeah, 

  [00:26:14] Hamish: yeah. 

  [00:26:16] Joel: So what's... Okay, so what's the most un-passive house thing about you at the moment? So like what's a, a non-passive house thing?

  [00:26:19] Oh, the 

  [00:26:22] Matt: one thing that I bang on at the moment is we got a full house, uh, full water filtration system in the house to filter out all the water so it's like clean water when you drink it. One, when you shower, like there's no shit on the screen anymore so it's like crystal clear every time. Two, it's gonna extend the longevity of my taps and fittings and fixtures.

  [00:26:40] And three, like I thought drinking like water from a filter would be like what a wank. It sucks, stupid. I hate drinking other water now. So that is the most non-passive house-y thing. 

  [00:26:50] Joel: Why is it non-passive house? I think it's very- I feel like that is passive house ... very- 

  [00:26:52] Matt: No, it's... That's just, that's not got nothing to do with the con- 

  [00:26:55] Joel: This guy cannot consume power if he...

  [00:26:58] Like that's, 

  [00:26:58] Matt: that's not- That's, that's nothing to do with the pow- the, [00:27:00] the performance of a home though. That's, that's the, the 

  [00:27:02] Joel: quality. I'm talking about like, do you go to Calder Park Drags? I mean, I mean, I know you don't. Ask me, ask me, ask me. But like... Yeah, go on. Yeah, so- What's your un-passive house thing?

  [00:27:08] Hamish: I love driving my 300 series Land Cruiser. 

  [00:27:10] Joel: Yes. Oh. I take that to mean. 

  [00:27:11] Hamish: And, and, and- I love burning a wood fire in my house. Yeah, 

  [00:27:15] Matt: I like wood fires too. 

  [00:27:16] Joel: So wood fires, you know- 

  [00:27:18] Hamish: Mm. Sorry, Cam. Sorry, Cam ... yeah. 

  [00:27:19] Joel: Do a lot of passive houses have wood fires in them? 

  [00:27:21] Hamish: No, no. You just don't need it. You don't need it.

  [00:27:21] It's not a thing. You don't need it. 

  [00:27:23] Joel: We... Yeah. 

  [00:27:24] Hamish: You don't need it. 

  [00:27:24] Joel: What if someone wants it, would you build it for them? 

  [00:27:26] Matt: Do you wanna go... How technical are we allowed to go 

  [00:27:27] Joel: into this? Or is it s- or is it s- Yeah, okay. Not too technical, 'cause it's also now. 

  [00:27:30] Matt: No, so there's two, there's two, two reasons. One, you're airtight so you gotta bring in air to, to light the fire, so oxygen.

  [00:27:35] To keep it 

  [00:27:35] Joel: moving. 

  [00:27:35] Hamish: So it's gotta have a dedicated vent- Make... Yeah ... it's gotta have dedicated airflow. Otherwise 

  [00:27:38] Joel: it'll pull the oxygen 

  [00:27:40] Matt: out of the room. It just won't light. It just won't light. Yeah, it's... Two, the other question I'll ask is, like, and we look- It'll overheat. It'll overheat too ... we look at health aspect of just human health right now, and the healthcare bill that we c- in a state like Victoria is through the roof, and we can't maintain it, yet we decrease doctors and so nurses, which we need more of.

  [00:27:57] The burden of asthma and [00:28:00] burning fires is sh- is a huge- Is huge ... is a huge burden on our healthcare system right now. And the thing is- Really? Yeah. Dude, 

  [00:28:06] Hamish: stop judging me, 

  [00:28:07] Joel: man. No, no, no, no. It's fine. I love my 

  [00:28:08] Matt: fire. I, I fucking... It was the biggest thing that I didn't want to give up. I've 

  [00:28:11] Joel: got, like, four fireplaces.

  [00:28:12] Yeah, no. 

  [00:28:13] Matt: It, it's one thing that I didn't want to... Like, for years, this is the part I hated about Passive House and it was mentally, I've given up on it not because I don't like it, it's because it's the part that... How do I even speak about this? Like, y- y- y- it's... So when you burn a wood fire, it's, it doesn't affect you, it affects everyone else around you 'cause it blows everywhere.

  [00:28:35] Hamish: Yeah. So, so I guess I think it's all within context though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I live on a couple of acres, my back onto a state park. I live, you know, there's fireplace down there, there's a fireplace down there. Like, I, I- So you just 

  [00:28:47] Joel: have them outside though now. 

  [00:28:49] Hamish: Well, I mean, I've, I've got a fireplace in my old 1970s home, which I, I, I really enjoy the heat.

  [00:28:56] Yeah. Now, w- if, if a client said to me, "Hey, I wanna put a wood fire [00:29:00] in," I'd be like, "Well, no, you can't." Yeah. "'Cause you're airtight, your house is gonna overcook. You know, I'm respecting your neighbors there, which is, like, 10, 20 meters away." Like, there's... I think it's all, it's gotta all be within context. 

  [00:29:11] Joel: Yeah, right.

  [00:29:12] So you have a fireplace in your house. Your house is not currently... is unrenovated? 

  [00:29:16] Hamish: It is unrenovated. 

  [00:29:17] Joel: Okay. But you're gonna renovate it. I'm 

  [00:29:18] Hamish: gonna renovate it, 

  [00:29:19] Joel: yeah. Passive House standards. 

  [00:29:20] Hamish: Uh, probably, yeah. 

  [00:29:21] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:29:21] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:29:22] Matt: And mine is a more- So Carlin, do you... I live in a certified Passive House, but mine's on environmental reasons.

  [00:29:26] So I, I care about sustainability, but not as much as you probably think. I care what makes sense. So durability and longevity makes sense, the home. Yeah. I don't wanna keep maintaining it. Two, it's cheaper to be all electric. Like- Yep ... three, I want good air in- door air quality. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. I don't, like, materials and that, making it healthy was a bit of a test and fun and play around.

  [00:29:47] But- Yeah ... ultimately, like, I look at it as a common sense approach, not, not sustainability. The by-product that I have is sustainability. Yeah, 

  [00:29:57] Joel: sure. Okay. 

  [00:29:57] Matt: I... 

  [00:29:58] Joel: Yeah. Look, that... I mean, [00:30:00] that makes sense. But you... So there's, there's still nothing un-Passive House about this 

  [00:30:04] Matt: guy. Um, no, it's not P- like-

  [00:30:10] Hamish: I feel 

  [00:30:11] Joel: like, there needs to be something 

  [00:30:12] Hamish: Yeah. What else? No. I mean, he... I 

  [00:30:16] Joel: don't know You're talking to a guy that's got like a 6.9 liter- I travel in a car ... carbie'd car that he drives on the weekend. I need, I need something here. Um- 

  [00:30:23] Matt: I saw, I drive a Mazda BT-50 as my other car. 

  [00:30:25] Joel: Oh, okay. Um- Oh, yeah. That's un-passive there.

  [00:30:27] That's cute. 

  [00:30:28] Matt: Yeah. So to give you statistics, here we 

  [00:30:30] Joel: go. Diesel. '

  [00:30:30] Matt: Cause I, I li- I like, I'll throw this one for you 'cause I like numbers. So 4.1% of Melbourne households use a wood fire, and it is, uh, generates 50% of the air pollution. Mm. So only 4% of houses burn it. 

  [00:30:43] Joel: 100% of the fucking 

  [00:30:44] Hamish: ambience 

  [00:30:45] Joel: though, you know what I mean?

  [00:30:45] Hamish: So if, if, if the question is who's, who's, who's more less passive house, it'd be me. 

  [00:30:50] Joel: It 

  [00:30:50] Matt: is you. Yeah. 

  [00:30:51] Joel: Okay. Yeah. 

  [00:30:52] Matt: Yeah. Um, but you know what? I think sometimes it's some of the stuff, like I, I fucking couldn't give two shits about recycling. I just don't [00:31:00] find it interesting. 

  [00:31:00] Joel: Oh, there we go. 

  [00:31:01] Hamish: See, I do. 

  [00:31:02] Joel: That's very un-passive house.

  [00:31:02] Matt: Yeah. Yes. I just don't care for it. Really? Like, like I just can't. 

  [00:31:06] Joel: So what, do you just like throw shit, rubbish in the recycling bin? I try, 

  [00:31:09] Matt: I try my best. Whereas 

  [00:31:10] Hamish: I, I agonize over it. Yeah. 

  [00:31:12] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:31:12] Hamish: I, I, I really- 

  [00:31:13] Joel: Don't you guys have the bins? Yeah, I have all that. Yeah. 

  [00:31:14] Matt: Yeah, yeah. On site and 

  [00:31:15] Joel: stuff. I separate my 

  [00:31:16] Hamish: stuff.

  [00:31:16] Matt: I'm worse at home. I just don't give a fuck sometimes. 

  [00:31:19] Joel: Yeah. Like- So you're better on, on your jobs with it. Don't... Wouldn't your clients would surely demand a certain level? Well, no, we, it's 

  [00:31:24] Matt: just, it's actually 

  [00:31:25] Joel: cheaper to recycle sometimes, so 

  [00:31:26] Matt: it's- 

  [00:31:26] Joel: Yeah, yeah. 

  [00:31:27] Hamish: Now, whereas, whereas for me, that's been for... Like, I've got, I've got lengths of timber.

  [00:31:30] In fact, one of my clients sent me something on the weekend. You know that guy on social media who does all those funny kind of dad, um, reels? And he goes, "Oh yeah, that little bit of tim- that little bit of weather board's gonna come in handy late, uh, one time." Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm like that. I'm that guy.

  [00:31:45] Yeah, 

  [00:31:45] Joel: yeah. 

  [00:31:46] Hamish: I've got like piles of little offcuts, um, of shorts for- I'll use one day sort of thing ... for, for boxing for a slab. I'm like- Oh ... "I reckon I'll use that on my barn slab." 

  [00:31:53] Joel: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I collect a fair bit of shorts for boxing- Yeah ... and then I just throw them out. I just move them around four times before I do.

  [00:31:59] Hamish: [00:32:00] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

  [00:32:00] Matt: Like, I don't care for the use of foam. Like, I've got a whole job of putting a ton of foam in. Like, at the end of the day, if I can increase the performance of a house at the cost of like using petroleum-based product, I'll take the- 

  [00:32:10] Joel: The easy win sort of thing ... 

  [00:32:11] Matt: I'll take the, the cheaper option to make the client a healthier, comfortable home.

  [00:32:14] Joel: Yeah, okay. So 

  [00:32:16] Matt: I think- 

  [00:32:16] Joel: You seem very passive house still though. You seem very passive house ... 

  [00:32:17] Matt: material, material choice, I don't really care as long as it makes sense. 

  [00:32:20] Joel: Are you a bogan though? Do you have any bogan traits? 

  [00:32:24] Matt: Stupidly still play football 

  [00:32:25] Joel: Do you? Yeah. 

  [00:32:26] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, okay. 

  [00:32:27] Hamish: So yeah. I wouldn't... Bogan would not be what I think about- 

  [00:32:30] Matt: No

  [00:32:30] Hamish: when I think 

  [00:32:31] Joel: about you, no. No, but that's why I'm like, there's gotta be something. No. I've gotta give something to the, to the tradies. No. To the guys that are- Yeah, okay ... we're trying to get the rest of the building industry to- 

  [00:32:38] Matt: Yeah ... I'm a bit more like, 'cause like obviously I've got a podcasting company, like I, I can have very inappropriate jokes at times, but they will be shared between people that I trust.

  [00:32:50] I'm not gonna put that out there. Um, 

  [00:32:53] Joel: yeah. But you still play footy? 

  [00:32:54] Matt: Stupidly, yep. 

  [00:32:55] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. How's it go on the body nowadays? 

  [00:32:58] Matt: Fucked. Like- He's always injured ... doing my calf [00:33:00] and hammy every second week. He's always 

  [00:33:01] Hamish: injured. Soft tissues. You're, you're, you're almost in your 40s. Yeah. Soft tissues. 

  [00:33:04] Matt: I screwed, I broke my ankle, like bone last year and then fucked it again.

  [00:33:08] And 

  [00:33:08] Joel: now you're back in footy 

  [00:33:09] Matt: again. Still play. I got no PCL left. I've got b- I've got metal all through my arm still from breaking bones. 

  [00:33:15] Joel: So there's a bit of dumb tradie in there. There's a little 

  [00:33:16] Matt: bit of dumb tradie. Yeah. 

  [00:33:17] Joel: Fuck yeah. Now we're talking.

  [00:33:23] Matt: I've been around a b- He's doing his best to derail my podcast ... I've been, put it this way, I've been around a footy club- Fucking educate people ... since the age of like eight. Yeah. All through seniors when, yeah, I, I can, I can, the other side, yes, you will get that. 

  [00:33:32] Joel: Massive on footy. All right. Um, do you guys judge us normal builders?

  [00:33:38] Matt: No. 

  [00:33:38] Hamish: No. No. 

  [00:33:40] Matt: You gotta, you gotta s- everyone, like you start somewhere. Everyone start, we were all level one at one 

  [00:33:44] Joel: point. But you see what you guys do as the destination. 

  [00:33:47] Hamish: No, okay. No. So for, I can, I'll talk from my side, right? So as a business, we choose to build a certain way. 

  [00:33:53] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:33:53] Hamish: Sustainable Builders Alliance, my goal would be that every single builder in Australia just build a little bit better.

  [00:33:59] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:33:59] Hamish: [00:34:00] Whatever, whatever that is on that spectrum. 

  [00:34:01] Joel: Yeah. '

  [00:34:01] Hamish: Cause if, if me and Matt building four or five passive houses a year means nothing unless all of these other builders throughout Australia, uh, aren't getting a little bit better. Yeah. Now for me, it's not about like throw sustainability out the door, like throw- I don't know, recycling performance, all that.

  [00:34:21] Just throw all that out. Carbon. Just build better. Yeah, yeah. Just build a little bit better. 

  [00:34:23] Joel: Reliable, reliability. 

  [00:34:25] Hamish: A reliable home. Yeah. Absolutely. 

  [00:34:26] Matt: That's something I don't care about carbon. Like I, I, I don't understand it well enough, but I just don't care about carbon 

  [00:34:31] Joel: stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's something that gets thrown around.

  [00:34:34] Yeah. But like, okay, so what you guys are doing, like say with the... I think when people think about Passive House, they think about membranes and wraps and stuff, and I would argue that the, the standard of wraps, building wraps has increased. Absolutely. You still get the old- Yeah, yeah ... foil shit that you see sometimes.

  [00:34:48] Yeah. But generally speaking, most of us won't use it now. Yeah. Especially small builders. Yeah. Like you'd be like, "Fuck, I'm not using that old foil shit." No. Yeah. But 

  [00:34:53] Hamish: you know, like even, even looking at Sammy Atkins, uh, one of his reels where he taped all the [00:35:00] joins for the foil backed stuff, I think that, even that in itself- That's fine

  [00:35:03] is a, is a, is a much better- 

  [00:35:04] Matt: Durability wins. Yeah. Like that's ul- ultimately all I care about is durable buildings. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Like screw sustainability. There's no point. I can build you the most sustainable house in the world, but if it doesn't last 10 years, is it really sustainable?

  [00:35:16] It's not sustainable, yeah. So for me, I'd rather build durable. 

  [00:35:18] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Or is that maybe the way to make Passive House a bit more marketable to everyone, like durability? So again, like I can- 'Cause honestly, I fucking don't drink the Kool-Aid. You guys know that about 

  [00:35:30] Hamish: me, right? That's, but that's fine. But the thing is, I actually, I don't think, and sorry Australian Passive House Association, I actually don't think the solution is- Passive

  [00:35:37] that every house should be a Passive House. It's part of. What I do think is I think that every school and every daycare should be, or close to, because we're talking about- 

  [00:35:47] Joel: A hospital. Yeah, but this shit's already fucking expensive, like government spending 

  [00:35:49] Hamish: and- Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but, but- You 

  [00:35:50] Joel: gotta 

  [00:35:51] Hamish: s- But they're gonna spend the money anyway, and we're talking about children's education and, you know, if your kids are anything like my kids at 1:30, 2:00 in the afternoon when they've been sitting in the same [00:36:00] classroom for six hours of the day and the carbon monoxide levels are going through the roof, how the fuck are they meant to concentrate in there when it's four degrees outside, there's condensation dripping down the window?

  [00:36:10] Where would you prefer your kid to be, in that classroom or a beautifully ventilated, healthy classroom with good oxygen levels? 

  [00:36:18] Joel: Yeah. I don't know, man. I'll be honest with you. The whole education thing and like my kids and all that stuff, I really don't feel like the education system really is really hitting anything for me and I don't- I agree

  [00:36:29] I don't know that I'd want my kids in that environment either, in either. 

  [00:36:33] Matt: It's 

  [00:36:33] Joel: your only trick. Like I think- That has been the challenge ... the reason why I say that is I don't want my kids to be not, um, exposed to the weather and to the elements, and if anything, I kind of want my kids to be outside more.

  [00:36:44] Yeah. But that, 

  [00:36:44] Hamish: that's- 

  [00:36:44] Joel: In the fucking cold weather ... that's not 

  [00:36:45] Hamish: what I'm talking about though. Yeah. That's 

  [00:36:46] Joel: not what 

  [00:36:46] Matt: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm- 'Cause you made the comment about you got to spend it. It's more expensive. You've already got a, a spending problem, which we do in Victoria, so let's be mindful 

  [00:36:52] Hamish: of that. I, I'm, I'm talking about kids in a classroom who, you know, let's face it, kids have got to go to school.

  [00:36:57] If they're in primary school, they've got to go to school. Yeah, yeah. Like why not put them in an [00:37:00] environment that's healthy for them and where they can concentrate? 

  [00:37:02] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:37:03] Matt: And, and to, and to comment on spending, like we have, we've got a massive spending problem in Victoria. Like our government in Victoria is fucking cooked right now, but- It's about spending money wisely and redistributing the correct areas.

  [00:37:15] So we can cut on things and then spend in the right areas, and you can save money. Again, I go back to the comment on the healthcare system. What if we can decrease the risk on the healthcare system by building better c- indoor air quality homes, and then all of a sudden we've completely halved the asthma we spend, was it a billion dollars on asthma per year?

  [00:37:32] Half that, and all of a sudden you got $500,000 that we can now either save or put to something else. 

  [00:37:36] Joel: Yeah, look, 

  [00:37:36] Hamish: I'm- Or go and waste on a new freeway or something. 

  [00:37:38] Joel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like- I'm hearing what you guys are saying. Like, um, again, I'll be, I'll just be honest. I, I hear- No, it's fine ... what you guys are saying, but it's fucking such a gap to bridge, I think, like...

  [00:37:48] Matt: Do you think, though? 

  [00:37:50] Joel: Yeah. Fuck yeah. Like- Do you think so? Like- What, what counts, 

  [00:37:52] Matt: what parts of the gap to bridge? 

  [00:37:54] Joel: Like, I'm talking about look at the kind of dog shit houses that are still getting built out on [00:38:00] sites. Like, I... Man, I don't know what's going on with my algorithm at the moment, but my fucking socials are getting flooded with shit fucking builds and shit trades, man.

  [00:38:08] So is that our problem or 

  [00:38:09] Matt: that's their problem? 'Cause that's- 

  [00:38:10] Joel: I'm just saying, like, you've got this- 

  [00:38:12] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:38:13] Joel: down here, and then you guys are, like, all the way at the other end of the spectrum. Like, I'm, I'm talking about... Like, did you guys see that slab that got poured? 

  [00:38:21] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. 

  [00:38:21] Joel: I still can't 

  [00:38:22] Matt: work that out.

  [00:38:22] Joel: I'm- Far too- ... I'm still trying to work 

  [00:38:24] Matt: my 

  [00:38:24] Hamish: way out ... how is, how do they get past? Like, that is, I- 

  [00:38:27] Joel: As soon as you put concrete on that, that's, that plastic was gonna tear. Yeah. I, I- That just- I started second- 

  [00:38:32] Hamish: The steel, the steel's probably 

  [00:38:33] Joel: this thick. That's fucking... Like, l- those leagues and everything, I'm like, these are not fucking...

  [00:38:37] There, surely there's no engineering document that looks like what you fucking put served up. Like, 

  [00:38:42] Hamish: who, who... I don't know if, a- and people probably have seen it, 'cause it's- Fucking everywhere ... spinning, spinning around. There would've been 200 cubes of concrete in that. 

  [00:38:49] Matt: I started second-guessing 

  [00:38:50] Joel: my- And then a bloke hanging out in a fucking tree branch.

  [00:38:52] Yeah. What the f- Like, fuck me, man. Like- 

  [00:38:54] Matt: Yeah. Do you 

  [00:38:55] Hamish: know 

  [00:38:55] Joel: what I'm talking about? I don't care where you're from. Yeah, I know. It's 

  [00:38:57] Matt: just that- It's just more, it's just more- ... I went through and watched all those videos ... a fucking 

  [00:38:59] Joel: circus ... 

  [00:38:59] Matt: I [00:39:00] actually started second-guessing my building knowledge, being like, "Am 

  [00:39:03] Joel: I doing something wrong here?"

  [00:39:04] Matt: Yeah, am I doing... Like, a- a- are you actually... I was like, "Oh, can you do that?" And I was like- 

  [00:39:09] Hamish: I'm more concerned about the pipes. Like- No, 

  [00:39:11] Matt: no, like- The risers and shit? Yeah ... the risers. Yeah. Like, so, so Stormi- Oh, my God. You see the sewer was, like, running down. God. So, so let's, let's work that, 'cause that is what people see as building.

  [00:39:19] That's what they see as the m- the, the standard of construction, and then they compare it to us. So like- Yeah, hang on, 

  [00:39:24] Hamish: hang on. Wait, wait, wait ... hold on. You're, you're- That house, that house is in, was in North Born or something. I, I, I... D- does- That's a million, million plus dollar house. Like, 

  [00:39:30] Matt: it doesn't matter.

  [00:39:30] Just like there are crappy cars, there's also awesome cars, and so there's a scale on anything. You can go buy an awesome designer bag, you can go buy a shitty bag. I don't... There's a scale on everything and everything we do in society. You go buy amazing pasta that's 20 bucks worth of packet of pasta, or you can go buy the dollar pa- packet.

  [00:39:47] The same as housing. You can buy something that's extremely awesome, or you can just get the fucking bottom end of things. 

  [00:39:53] Hamish: I've got a question for you. Do you, when you see us on social media, do you [00:40:00] think... Okay, let's talk about me on social media. Do you think that the information that I'm sharing is trying to convince you to build a passive house?

  [00:40:10] Joel: Do I think? No Yeah, '

  [00:40:12] Hamish: cause it's not my goal. Like- 

  [00:40:13] Joel: No, I don't think it is. I don't, I don't get that impression. 

  [00:40:16] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:40:16] Matt: Like, I don't feel like- 

  [00:40:17] Joel: But I- But I, I never feel like you guys are, um- Slamming it down throats ... y- you don't, you don't... No, you don't come across as guys that are selling it. You come across as guys that are educating.

  [00:40:26] Yeah. Right? Um- 

  [00:40:27] Hamish: I, I'm glad to hear that because my, my goal is go, "Hey, this is how I choose to run my business." 

  [00:40:33] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:40:33] Hamish: I'm not trying to make you do it, not trying to make- Yeah ... the person down the street do it. I'm saying, "Hey, this is what I'm doing and I'm sharing my journey." 

  [00:40:41] Joel: But, uh, like, I guess what I see sometimes, sorry to cut you off- That's all right

  [00:40:45] but I see a rocket scientist talking to a fucking mechanic, and it's like, man, we might both use fucking bolts, but you're doing very different things with yours- Yeah ... and your bolts are made out of very different materials than mine are. Yeah, okay. Right? Like, I'm going to Bunnings and getting some gal [00:41:00] coach bolts and you're fucking got some high tensile fucking- I know.

  [00:41:03] I'm a, I'm a- You know ... 

  [00:41:03] Hamish: I'm a, I'm a Bunnings guy. 

  [00:41:04] Joel: Yeah, yeah. 

  [00:41:05] Hamish: Gal coach. 

  [00:41:05] Joel: No, but do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's- But again, that's like the housing system ... it's, it's just feels- Yeah ... like, and this is kind of, um, kind of my bone to pick with you guys- Yeah ... is what you do is so fucking disconnected from the bottom end, and then even for what I do, I feel like what I do is disconnected from the bottom end.

  [00:41:23] Yeah, 

  [00:41:23] Hamish: yeah. 

  [00:41:24] Joel: Even, and but so f- for, for what I'm trying to do, I'm like, I agree. Want to lift the standard. 

  [00:41:28] Hamish: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:41:28] Joel: Right? But guys like me don't really educate the guys at the bottom end. Instead, I get fucking just shitted off. 

  [00:41:38] Matt: So the b- the biggest problem is education, and that's where it starts because at, at...

  [00:41:42] And the thing that I hate is, one- 

  [00:41:43] Joel: Well, I think it's regulation 

  [00:41:45] Matt: as well Okay. So, do, so here's a good conversation. Do you think that we should have licenses for carpenters? 

  [00:41:50] Joel: Fucking oath. 

  [00:41:50] Matt: Okay, cool. We're on the same page. So then you should have upskilling, so you continue to upskill and learn. Yeah. So I, I think, and I know also- 

  [00:41:57] Joel: As in like con- like, as in like do it like what [00:42:00] the doctors do?

  [00:42:00] Professionals. 

  [00:42:00] Matt: Yeah, yeah. So like the new, like a new 1684 comes in, hey, you've got to go do a four-hour course on it. Does that just not make sense? 

  [00:42:06] Joel: Like- I think so ... 

  [00:42:07] Matt: so then you also have like wire and other trades license, and I think the moment you can start to do that, then you can h- I can go, "Hey Joel, you got your license.

  [00:42:16] You want to keep operating? If you don't keep doing the right thing, we'll take it off you." 

  [00:42:19] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:42:20] Matt: And then that's how you f- you have to lift the bottom. These fucking sh- But, but then 

  [00:42:24] Joel: it's going to add fucking cost. 

  [00:42:25] Matt: But is, but is it? But also you're going to decrease, you should also decrease cost because you're going to actually have people being taught the right thing.

  [00:42:30] You're going to have more, you're going to have service- Less callbacks. Less- 

  [00:42:32] Joel: You're going to decrease supply of carpenters, though. 

  [00:42:34] Matt: Who cares? 

  [00:42:35] Joel: Fucking, the economy will care. But do they? People that don't have houses, like we've got a supply crisis of 

  [00:42:40] Matt: houses. Do, do we actually? Do you know anyone that's not in a house?

  [00:42:43] This is a whole conversation, like we get, we keep getting told we're in a, like a cost of living crisis. We are, but when it comes to housing crisis- Yeah, but I, I- ... do, like, are we actually? Are we just trying to support the mi- the immigration that comes in per year? Look, 

  [00:42:54] Joel: you're honestly probably going over my head with that.

  [00:42:56] I know. Like, I'm not going to argue 

  [00:42:58] Matt: something I don't know about. I'm being devil's advocate here. And we, 

  [00:42:59] Hamish: and we probably don't know enough 

  [00:42:59] Matt: about- [00:43:00] No ... um, the actual stats and all that stuff, yeah. But I'm being devil, I'm being devil advocate here. But like, so who c- to, we've got to go back a step to go forward.

  [00:43:08] We keep trying to like, as you introduce 50-year-old carpenters and, or we're going to shortcut the apprenticeship to three years now. They're just short. Yeah, I agree. I, I don't agree with that. That's just fucking ridiculous. How about we go backwards, start training everyone properly, spend the time. So yes, you might halve the amount of carpenters, but in 40 years we now have a trade that is super proud of what they do.

  [00:43:26] Joel: Well, I, yeah. It kind of comes back to like what we were talking about before, about like getting an 18-year-old apprentice and whether you'd actually want that or not, and that's why I'm like, yeah, because I want someone that could actually maybe get passionate about it when they're young, and then have a longer career to actually serve the industry for a longer period of time.

  [00:43:42] Yeah. Not a fucking 50-year-old apprentice. I've got nothing against 50-year-old people that want to start an apprenticeship. I'm just saying that's not the solution- No, it's not. I- ... to a skills shortage. I 

  [00:43:51] Hamish: agree. 

  [00:43:51] Matt: But there's n- the, the thing is there's no skill, there's no answer and there will never be. It's been the same conversation forever, and we keep having it because that's what clickbait and media [00:44:00] sells.

  [00:44:00] It's like housing crisis, that sells, it gets people interested. That's what gets people complai- Yeah ... complaining. So ultimately what we've got to do is if you want to, if you want to go forward, you're always going to have to go back. You're going to have to stop and reassess. Yeah, 

  [00:44:11] Joel: but we can't afford to go back now.

  [00:44:12] We 

  [00:44:12] Matt: c- we can. 

  [00:44:13] Joel: Not at the moment. Why? We're fucking broke as a state. 

  [00:44:15] Matt: Exactly. Think about Victoria. So you've got to stop. 

  [00:44:17] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:44:17] Matt: So it, to go, to, to get more money back in the account, you've got to stop. When you can't, like you don't go buy the Ferrari because you can't afford it. You just said you can't build a house because you can afford it.

  [00:44:26] Same principles. If we don't, we've got to slow down to go ahead. 

  [00:44:29] Joel: I th- yeah, but I think this is where I look at it differently And I've got real world experience- Yeah ... of having run a business that was completely hemorrhaging money. 

  [00:44:38] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:44:38] Joel: The only way I could actually rescue the business was to change what I was doing, but the number one thing was to cut costs.

  [00:44:45] I, 

  [00:44:45] Matt: I, I 100% agree. 

  [00:44:47] Joel: But everything that you've suggested will fucking increase costs in the short term. In the short term. Long term, sure- So have a look, so have a look at 

  [00:44:54] Matt: China right now. They're arguably a global power because they went the 40-year approach [00:45:00] 

  [00:45:01] Joel: Yeah, but you can't compare us to China. 

  [00:45:02] Matt: But you, but we- We've 

  [00:45:03] Joel: fucking got less population than 

  [00:45:04] Matt: New York City

  [00:45:05] No, no, no, but no, you, you can use the, the, you can use the longevity and forward thinking rather than thinking for a four-year political term. 

  [00:45:10] Joel: We won't get, we won't get there though, man. We won't get past the next fucking few years, is my point. 

  [00:45:16] Matt: But what I, I think we're actually agreeing on where we're trying to...

  [00:45:20] And maybe I'm just not communicating it correctly. I agree we need to stop spending. Yeah. So we, let, let's start there. Yes, h- how it will drive the price up, we're- 

  [00:45:30] Hamish: I don't think we should need to stop spending. If we stop spending, we won't get, like, the, the economy will collapse on itself. 

  [00:45:36] Matt: I think we're gonna- 

  [00:45:37] Joel: I think the government needs to

  [00:45:42] Hamish: stop spending. No, no, no, okay. No, no, 

  [00:45:43] Matt: so yes, this is what I think we're talking about politics right now. The government probably needs to, the, yeah, okay. That's what we're talking politics. You know what, I've, I've... Yes, this is politics. Yeah, I don't, I don't want to touch the subject either, to be honest. I'll fucking talk about it.

  [00:45:46] Yeah. But like it's, but it's like a business. If you can't afford something, you don't go invest in it 

  [00:45:49] Hamish: or buy it. I, I think getting, getting back to what the original question, if I fucking remember what it was, I think that what Matt and I are doing on social media and the, and the information that we're, um, [00:46:00] projecting, the education that we're projecting, I think is good for the industry.

  [00:46:03] I think what you're doing with Joel from hy建build, uh, and you actually showing passion about your business and being a trade- 

  [00:46:13] Joel: Yeah ... 

  [00:46:14] Hamish: is helping the industry. I think what Hoppo's doing and how passionate he is and motivating people is great for the industry. Collectively, we're all- We need passionate people

  [00:46:22] we're all, we're all, okay, we're all passionate people, but we're all lifting a person over here who arguably is a little bit lower than what we are, and we're bringing them up. 

  [00:46:31] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:46:31] Hamish: So collectively we're bringing up. We're just a different, we're doing different things. And 

  [00:46:34] Matt: if you're gon- Well, yeah ... if you're gonna do something, just do it right.

  [00:46:36] That's my thinking, obviously. So- If you're gonna go be a carpenter, just go fucking do it right. 

  [00:46:40] Hamish: Yeah. But, okay, and also- So- ... I, I'm, I'm also, sorry, trying to, I'm, so I'm sitting here trying to find a good response to this, but I'm also just trying to ignore the noise. 

  [00:46:47] Matt: Mm. 

  [00:46:48] Hamish: Like, I have a pretty good vision of what I want to try and do with my life, and whether that's with the podcast- Yeah

  [00:46:54] whether that's with Sustainable Builders Alliance or with Sanctum Homes, like I am really just trying to [00:47:00] ignore all the other shit that's- All the bullshit, yeah ... all the bullshit around me, and just focus on doing that really well. 

  [00:47:06] Joel: Well, I think, you know, that's what I've been doing, like, and even with the social media stuff, I kind of ignore the, all the people that tell you, "You should do this, and you should do that," and the fucking business coaches and the guys that say, "You know, scale your fucking trade business 

  [00:47:19] Matt: to-" What's your thoughts, what's your thought on bus- thoughts on business coaches?

  [00:47:21] Joel: I don't use them. 

  [00:47:22] Matt: Why? Have you ever had one? 

  [00:47:23] Joel: No. 

  [00:47:24] Matt: Why? '

  [00:47:25] Joel: Cause I fucking don't want one. I, I don't, oh, I don't want to fucking piss them all off. 

  [00:47:29] Matt: Yeah. No, just piss them off. I 

  [00:47:30] Joel: feel like they're the worst people to piss off. Like, I feel like they're all gonna come for me. It, mate, if you fucking need a business coach, go for it, but I fucking don't wanna be told what to do.

  [00:47:40] And I do... A lot of things that I do, I work it out backwards. I go in arse first to situations. Yeah. Yeah. And that's just how I fucking do things. So you 

  [00:47:48] Matt: know I 

  [00:47:48] Joel: said- But I've worked it out, and I don't want someone to tell me, "You need to fucking do this and scale your business to fucking eight figures, and then you can get out of the business."

  [00:47:55] I don't wanna get out of the business. I like my business. I like my team. 

  [00:47:59] Matt: So now I [00:48:00] say we're probably gonna- I'll be 

  [00:48:00] Joel: bored. 

  [00:48:01] Matt: You know how I said we're probably gonna agree on a lot of, like- Yeah ... it was surprising? I agree with you. 

  [00:48:05] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:48:05] Matt: Like, I think, yeah, that a lot of coaches will throw stuff down your throat to keep them dangling the carrot.

  [00:48:13] Joel: Yeah, and that's why I don't... Like, people have said, "Hey- Not all of them ... do you do mentoring? Do you do coaching- Yeah ... or are you gonna do..." No, I'm not, because I don't... Because then I'll have to change what I do. 

  [00:48:21] Matt: Mentoring, I think, is different to coaching. They're two different things, though. Coaching is, like...

  [00:48:25] Mentoring is, like, me calling, like, "Hey, what do we do here? I'm, I'm a bit... Like, you've had this problem." That's mentoring. 

  [00:48:30] Joel: Yeah, sure. 

  [00:48:31] Matt: I think, I think you'd actually be a very good- I think we all do that anyway. Yeah, but I 

  [00:48:33] Hamish: think you- I feel like, I feel like men- mentoring is, like, this, um, sort of top-down kind of- Yeah

  [00:48:38] thing, whereas, you know- More just peers. I might be looking up at someone who, who, yeah, is helping me, and then I'm looking down, helping that person there. Like, that for me is, like, that sort of mentor. 

  [00:48:46] Matt: Yeah, like y- you wanting to help the kid and get to take on an a- apprentice, and then that's mentoring.

  [00:48:51] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that- And that- 

  [00:48:53] Joel: Well, that's what it should 

  [00:48:54] Matt: be ... that's not coaching. That's mentoring, yeah. What 

  [00:48:55] Joel: a lot of carpenters think it is is cheap labor, which it isn't. 

  [00:48:57] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:48:58] Joel: Um- 

  [00:48:58] Hamish: What else have you got in that... For how [00:49:00] many... We haven't even got through the top first page. Mate, 

  [00:49:01] Joel: I... No, we have.

  [00:49:02] We've gone through a couple, but- 

  [00:49:03] Hamish: Oh, 

  [00:49:03] Joel: have we? ... there's a lot. But, like, I be- I guess, you know, I'm in insurance and make safes, right? Like, we're on the total opposite ends of the spectrum- Yeah ... here, of the, of the- 

  [00:49:10] Hamish: Yeah ... 

  [00:49:10] Joel: thing. My... Like you, you said, you don't work weekends. It's like- Yeah ... 7:00 to 5:00 or- Yeah. Yeah

  [00:49:15] 5:00 to 

  [00:49:15] Matt: whatever. I, I just, I like, I'll do 12 hours a day, but I... Weekends is my time. Yeah. Family 

  [00:49:19] Joel: time. We're 24/7. 

  [00:49:20] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:49:20] Joel: Yeah. Like, you guys do beautiful stuff. You've got, like, architects and all this stuff, and I've, you know, been there, not done Passive House, but- Yeah ... close to it. And now we walk into, like, water damage, fire.

  [00:49:34] We're going in there after firefighters. Um, we're doing make safes, mold. Like, just the worst work. Do 

  [00:49:42] Matt: you? Yeah. 

  [00:49:42] Joel: But a lot of s-, a lot of shit happens because of a poor building. 

  [00:49:46] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:49:47] Joel: Like, a, a bad building to start with, or bad wiring, or you know. So I guess we're kind of looking at the same problem from opposite ends.

  [00:49:55] Mm. You know? I'm, I'm just... And then when we rectify and we're doing [00:50:00] something through insurance, you s- you have to bring it up to code. Mm. You can't now deliver something- 

  [00:50:06] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:50:06] Joel: that doesn't comply. 

  [00:50:08] Matt: Mm. 

  [00:50:08] Joel: So we're sort of trying to lift- 

  [00:50:11] Matt: That 

  [00:50:11] Joel: end up ... you know, things in that way. But I don't know. I think, I think we're, um...

  [00:50:15] Yeah, we are... It's the same problem. I think we're in agreement. Yeah. Yeah. Just how we actually- 

  [00:50:19] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:50:20] Joel: Yeah. With two s- totally different angles. Yeah. And one of my concerns is- What you guys are doing is how, how much is it helping when these guys down here are just so fucking bad, and they're almost getting worse 

  [00:50:31] Matt: And no one wants to talk about the cost because they're too scared of not selling a client, saying...

  [00:50:35] They- they're too scared to say that it's more expensive and lose the client. That's, that's the reality, but- Yeah ... I think the reality is passive house is more expensive, and that's okay because it's a premium product. Yeah. That's it. And to a- Yeah. Well, look, even in 

  [00:50:48] Joel: what I do, I'm a premium service. 

  [00:50:49] Matt: Yeah, exactly.

  [00:50:50] Hamish: You know, and at the end of the day- Comes with costs ... pe- pe- we're not... You're not holding a gun to someone's head and telling them to spend $2 million to build a house. Yeah. It's their choice. 

  [00:50:56] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:50:57] Joel: Yeah. And if they, they can afford it, that's up to [00:51:00] them. 

  [00:51:00] Hamish: And if that's what they want, like really we're just satisfying the market.

  [00:51:03] Joel: Yeah. I, look, I mean, we- I'm doing the same thing. Fixing it. I'm, I, I, the, I s- I charge more than some carpenters out there, but when my phone rings I answer it. 

  [00:51:12] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:51:12] Joel: And then when I say I'm gonna be somewhere, I'm there. Even in the middle of the podcast. Yeah, I did do that once. But in my defense the camera stopped working anyway, so.

  [00:51:19] Um, all right. I've got some technical stuff that I wanted to ask you guys. Yeah. Um, but technical that's, I feel like is relatable to the average punter, which is what I'm- Yeah. We'll dumb it down ... sort of, you know, want to do. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at you here. What would you fix in the average Australian home?

  [00:51:34] Like, what's the, what's the first thing you'd fix in the average Australian home? 

  [00:51:39] Hamish: In a co-built home, 

  [00:51:39] Joel: like- All right. Well, let me tell you, put it this way. If I gave you a standard 1990s brick veneer home in Narre Warren North with blow-in ceiling insulation, no wall insulation, and single glazed windows with no seals, this is self-serving 'cause that's my fucking house.

  [00:51:52] Yeah. What's the first thing you'd do? 

  [00:51:54] Hamish: Draught proof it really simple. Go- 

  [00:51:58] Matt: Yeah. I, I, I, I draft [00:52:00] proof it and maybe just chuck in a, an air quality, like a purifier or just see, let's just test it to see what your indoor quality, indoor air quality is. 

  [00:52:07] Hamish: That's a good point, actually. You probably want to see, like what is the, what is the baseline- 

  [00:52:11] Matt: Yeah.

  [00:52:12] Joel: Just test it out. Yeah, like how can people improve their h- like my house- What, what's- ... is horrible at the moment, mate. Yeah. So, so- 

  [00:52:16] Hamish: Cold? 

  [00:52:17] Joel: So bad. 

  [00:52:18] Hamish: Yeah. So there, there's a magnitude of like, there, there's an order of like things you can do. Like right down at the, at the lower end, there's just draft proofing.

  [00:52:26] Yeah. Simple draft 

  [00:52:28] Matt: proofing. Draft, draft... It's like, it's like, i- it's just like let's just give yourself 20 grand. Is that probably a fair amount on p- or 

  [00:52:32] Hamish: you could probably even do 10, 10- Go to Bunnings and get some caulking guns and- So yeah ... and a couple of door stops- So do that ... and, and 

  [00:52:36] Matt: spend 100 

  [00:52:37] Hamish: bucks.

  [00:52:37] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Do that. I would then also put some ceiling insulation- Yeah ... some thick ceiling insulation, R6. Suck, 

  [00:52:43] Hamish: suck that stuff out 

  [00:52:43] Matt: basically. Yeah. 

  [00:52:43] Joel: Yeah, I got a quote for 10 grand to remove all the blow in- Really? ... and put ceiling batts in. 

  [00:52:48] Matt: Oh, inc- including in... Yeah, okay. That's pretty good. 

  [00:52:50] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:52:51] Matt: And then I'd also then go and, um, make sure all your ventilation is ducted outside externally- 

  [00:52:58] Hamish: Yeah

  [00:52:58] Joel: automatically. So range 

  [00:52:59] Hamish: hoods, 

  [00:52:59] Joel: your- Range [00:53:00] hoods ... your exhaust fans Yeah, 'cause it didn't used to be. It all used to be into 

  [00:53:02] Matt: the ceiling space. So I'd, I'd start with that, and if you draft, I'd draft proof it. 

  [00:53:05] Joel: What, what's the benefit for people that don't understand, like what's the benefit of having that go into the atmosphere- So, so if-

  [00:53:10] and not into the- We've, we've got a big truss roof 

  [00:53:13] Hamish: It's still gonna get moldy in there. 

  [00:53:15] Matt: Yeah. So we have this thing called we breathe, we shower, we cook and moisture. We want to just get that moisture and we, we want to get that air outside. Yes, we're not br- 'cause it's not airtight, we're not bringing the cleanest of air, but at least we're removing any potential- 

  [00:53:28] Hamish: The 

  [00:53:28] Matt: bad 

  [00:53:28] Joel: stuff

  [00:53:28] Matt: any moisture within the air that could cause a mold and condensation issue. 

  [00:53:32] Hamish: Yeah. Uh, so ventilation's another simple thing. Time, time, timed- 

  [00:53:36] Matt: Fans ... 

  [00:53:36] Hamish: fans in 

  [00:53:37] Matt: your- That should be in the code ... in your 

  [00:53:38] Hamish: areas. Timed fans and then duct them out the eave. 

  [00:53:40] Matt: So, 

  [00:53:40] Joel: so as in, so they run for longer after you 

  [00:53:42] Hamish: switch 

  [00:53:43] Matt: it off.

  [00:53:43] 30 minutes. Yep. So ev- ev- every single... The code should be that every bathroom that has a ducted outside mechanical ventilation fan, like where you would just do extraction fan, should be on a 30-minute on when you press the switch, should then 

  [00:53:54] Hamish: go 

  [00:53:54] Joel: bang for 30 minutes. Yeah, just 'cause what, 'cause, 'cause what do you do as soon- Yeah, every 

  [00:53:56] Hamish: time

  [00:53:56] as soon as you turn the lights out in your bathroom, what, what else do you turn off? 

  [00:53:59] Joel: Turn the fan off. [00:54:00] 

  [00:54:00] Matt: And the kids not turn it on, like so that's, that, that should be, that should be the function. 

  [00:54:03] Joel: I'm shocked, and I don't turn it on. Yeah. It turns my bathroom into a steam room. Yeah. 

  [00:54:05] Matt: Yeah, so I think that's the one code that should be changed.

  [00:54:08] It's like a Finnish, Finnish bathroom. That's, that's the biggest code change we could possibly make in a hou- 

  [00:54:11] Joel: Okay ... in 

  [00:54:11] Matt: the NCC. 

  [00:54:12] Joel: All right. Well, I'm, I'm actually gonna maybe think about it 

  [00:54:15] Matt: and look into it. And they're all really cheap ones. And if you can then afford to change windows, yes, but- So what's the cheapest upgrade to someone's house?

  [00:54:21] Like, you know- What, what are we- ... we're talking about 

  [00:54:23] Joel: draft proofing ... what do we call cheap, what do we call 

  [00:54:23] Hamish: cheap though? Like give us 

  [00:54:25] Matt: a number. 

  [00:54:25] Joel: Oh, well ju- I just, um- Yeah, 

  [00:54:27] Matt: give me a budget ... 

  [00:54:27] Joel: I don't know if there's a number on it, like let's say, but like what's something that I could do aside from the obvious of order some new windows for my brothers?

  [00:54:35] Yeah. 'Cause like- 

  [00:54:35] Matt: Windows is a 

  [00:54:36] Joel: big one ... for example... All right, I'll actually, I'll tell you guys something. Our front room flooded, which is slightly disconnected from the house- Yeah ... um, 'cause it used to be a carport- Yeah ... and then the previous owners enclosed it. 

  [00:54:47] Matt: Yep. Yeah. 

  [00:54:48] Joel: It flooded. Um, when it flooded we had to strip everything out.

  [00:54:53] It was carpeted and stuff- Yeah polished the concrete that was there. Yeah. I'm like, "I'm not recarpeting it- Yeah ... in case it fucking floods again." [00:55:00] And, um, I s- pulled all the plaster out. I left the ceiling plaster in, but I insulated the walls. 

  [00:55:07] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:55:07] Joel: And I, um, and I just put, like, VJ lining board, right? 

  [00:55:11] Matt: That's fine.

  [00:55:12] Sweet. 

  [00:55:12] Joel: The room is noticeably warm, and because of the exposed slab and it gets sunlight- Yeah ... from the big sliding doors there, the room is always noticeably warmer than the rest of the house, and it's still got blow-in insulation. 

  [00:55:24] Matt: So, so there's, so- 

  [00:55:25] Joel: And a single glazed aluminum sliding door. Yeah. So- 

  [00:55:27] Matt: So I would, I'd blow-in in your walls if you had the ability.

  [00:55:30] The cost, it might cost you eight grand to blow-in insulation into your walls, little holes in the plaster or the brick, and it'll just blow into the, the cavity and fill- So as in use blow-in 

  [00:55:38] Joel: insulation? 

  [00:55:38] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they'll use a- Cellulose ... ce- cellulose. Cellulose. Completely fine. Yeah. I'd just bl- I just, I would literally come around in, um, in- So I can do that to my-

  [00:55:46] in my Flex? ... to my existing house. Yeah. We just, we just did it. They'll cut, they'll 

  [00:55:49] Hamish: cut little, they'll cut little holes in, in each sort of stud bay, and you just go through and patch it up. In the end they just fill it up. 

  [00:55:56] Joel: Yeah, right. 

  [00:55:56] Matt: Super cheap. And 

  [00:55:56] Hamish: you can thermal im- thermal image it and see whether they've missed anything.

  [00:55:59] Matt: We just [00:56:00] did that on the little renovation we did. Mm. Cost us four grand for all external walls. 

  [00:56:03] Joel: Fuck off. 

  [00:56:04] Matt: It's not that expensive. Is that it? Yeah, but you... Look, it was a small house. But you do the windows, you do that, but then because- 'Cause there's 

  [00:56:09] Joel: all these '90s houses, which I didn't even realise, even as a builder I thought I should've known this, they didn't have to have fucking wall insulation.

  [00:56:16] Hamish: No, it's only until 

  [00:56:16] Matt: 1990s. No. No. So until the star come in. But I would look at... The, the issue is once you start to introduce one or two things, you start to have a- 

  [00:56:24] Hamish: Yeah, you change the physics of the building. 

  [00:56:25] Matt: Yeah, so- So 

  [00:56:26] Hamish: that's when you need, really need to start thinking about ventilation and, and air 

  [00:56:29] Matt: quality and things like that.

  [00:56:30] I would say a really good... If you, if you, your ability to change your windows over, once you do your windows inside externally- Yeah ... and then you, then you have to make sure that you have a ducted system going for your fans to extract air. Yeah. 'Cause it'll naturally become more airtight. And then a few air purifiers and just monitor the indoor air quality.

  [00:56:45] You just might have to open a window here and there. 

  [00:56:47] Joel: You know the, those building wraps, you've got the external one and the internal one. Yeah. If I don't have an external one or if it's like a shit old foil one that's not taped, is it worth putting an internal 

  [00:56:56] Matt: on? Oh, that's a good question. So we've ripped them out mult- Nah, so, oof.[00:57:00] 

  [00:57:00] Hamish: It, 

  [00:57:01] Matt: do you know what? Now I know you're gonna get ya. 

  [00:57:01] Hamish: Do you know what? It, it depends. 

  [00:57:02] Joel: Yeah. I, I actually, I genuinely wanna know. So- Because like say- It, it, 

  [00:57:04] Hamish: it depends 

  [00:57:05] Joel: because- There's rooms that I'm gonna be stripping out completely. 

  [00:57:07] Matt: So remove the foil b- so remove the insulation. That's the f- that... Remove, remove the foil face.

  [00:57:11] That's the first thing. Yeah. That's the first thing. 

  [00:57:13] Hamish: That's a vapor blocker. 

  [00:57:14] Matt: Yeah. So, so- 

  [00:57:15] Hamish: And then, and then get a, and then get a hydrophobic or, or, or- It's blown 

  [00:57:18] Matt: cellulose 

  [00:57:20] Hamish: or polyester back ... or pol- polyester back, 'cause it can, it can handle getting a bit wet. Well, I 

  [00:57:22] Joel: can't... I've got a brick veneer 

  [00:57:23] Matt: here. So there's two parts here.

  [00:57:24] So when you do the, when you do the, the polyester, it's in the stud bay, it doesn't touch the brick veneer. Okay. That's okay. Yeah? Yep, yep. So the, the second thing is we've gotta worry about is pressure driven moisture from the, from the out- Bricks ... from the bricks. So if you can put a sealant on the bricks or something to pre- prevent that moisture being pushed through, you're gonna stop water.

  [00:57:40] So we're not talking about s- So making 

  [00:57:42] Joel: them, making them basically not porous. Yeah, 

  [00:57:43] Matt: we're not ma- Yeah ... yeah, we're not making, we're not talking sustainability here. And this is, I think, where we get not misjudged or confused, is we're actually just talking about durability and health and how the house actually function.

  [00:57:54] Yeah. So I, I would, if I was in your case, I'd actually just go get cellulose insu- insulation, because I think it [00:58:00] has a lower perm rate and it's not as, it will not- From my understanding of the workshop I think the 

  [00:58:05] Hamish: long and short of it, I would, I would engage someone like Cameron Munro to do a report on your building, and that's where I would- Yeah

  [00:58:10] that's what I'd do. May- maybe this is m- It would cost you two and a half grand, and he would give you a baseline understanding of where your home or how your home's performing, and then he would do a couple of different studies on if you did X, Y, and Z- All right ... 

  [00:58:22] Matt: here's the 

  [00:58:23] Hamish: impact it would have. Uh, 

  [00:58:23] Matt: let's, let's, let's one-up it.

  [00:58:24] How about me, you, and Cam do a podcast, and we say, "How would you attack this home with a- 

  [00:58:29] Hamish: Yeah, great ... $30, 

  [00:58:29] Matt: $30,000 budget?" 

  [00:58:31] Hamish: Yeah. That, that's not- Yeah ... that's not a bad idea. That's a good idea. We did... So there's also... We've, we've just done a retrofit playbook, um, live event for Sustainable Builders Alliance, which is available to buy.

  [00:58:40] Yeah, right. So we recorded the whole thing. I think it's, like, 10 or 20 bucks. 

  [00:58:44] Joel: Yeah, okay. 

  [00:58:44] Hamish: Uh, and there is, there's- Holy 

  [00:58:46] Joel: shit, I might actually buy something that you guys are doing. 

  [00:58:48] Hamish: Sarah from QE Architecture. He's gonna be 

  [00:58:49] Matt: driving around in a, in a Tesla soon. He's gonna be all environmental. But 

  [00:58:55] Hamish: yeah, but the thing is, what, what you're talking about now is y- So [00:59:00] ironically, you want to make your home perform better.

  [00:59:03] Joel: Yeah. 

  [00:59:04] Hamish: Ironic- 'Cause it's 

  [00:59:04] Joel: uncomfortable. 

  [00:59:05] Hamish: Yeah. And, and, and I guess what I'm saying is, like, you don't have to be a fucking tree-hugging hippie to- Yeah ... want to be comfortable and healthy in your home. 

  [00:59:13] Joel: Yeah. Like, I mean, I used to do the double glaze windows, triple glaze, you know, all that stuff. Yeah. So I sort of get it, but I was never 

  [00:59:19] Hamish: really- Do, do you know what?

  [00:59:20] I, I am not gonna judge you or think anything less of you if- No. You, you've still got two V8s sitting in your driveway. There's a 200 series- As long as you get that toilet venter in the bathroom ... 

  [00:59:29] Joel: and there's a Bal- Bentley? Bentley? What's your- HK 

  [00:59:29] Hamish: Prem, yeah. HK, yeah, Prem, yeah. Um- 

  [00:59:31] Matt: So there's a few th- there's 

  [00:59:32] Hamish: also- It's not gonna change anything with your masculinity if you 

  [00:59:35] Matt: do all this stuff.

  [00:59:36] So, so there's a, there's a few things when we t- And this is a really important thing, is when we talk about the ev- comfort, comfort is not running the heater all day and all night. That's just not comfortable. 

  [00:59:44] Joel: No, we fucking argue about it all the time as well. Yeah, y- Lauren's either- Yeah ... too hot, and I'm fucking cold or...

  [00:59:50] Yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:59:50] Matt: So I, so I'm living in a passive house. I woke up this morning. It's, it's eight degrees outside, 21 inside, haven't turned anything on. The comfort that I, I really now struggle to talk [01:00:00] about the, that comfort because it's, it's so different. Like, you just, it's just like living in a house. It works.

  [01:00:06] Joel: Mate, the last house I was in was seven something star rated. Yeah. It was almost eight star. Yeah. It was 120 mil stud walls. Yeah, yeah. And I, I insulated it well. Yeah. I insulated all the internal walls as well. 

  [01:00:16] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:00:17] Joel: And it was- It makes 

  [01:00:17] Hamish: a difference ... 

  [01:00:18] Joel: fucking, it was 60 squares as well. It was a huge house- Oh, shit

  [01:00:21] with a double height ceiling in the back. Where was that? Where was that? In Pascalle South. 

  [01:00:24] Hamish: Yeah. Wow. 

  [01:00:25] Joel: And, um- Why'd you sell 

  [01:00:25] Hamish: that? 

  [01:00:26] Joel: Hey? 

  [01:00:27] Hamish: Why'd you sell that? 

  [01:00:28] Joel: We moved. We wanted land. Yeah. Like, we wanted a bigger- That's all 

  [01:00:30] Matt: right. That's 

  [01:00:31] Joel: a good- Yeah. Well, I- I've done a few jobs in Pascalle. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There you go.

  [01:00:34] But the- Well, it, like, going from that then to this I didn't realise the contrast it would be. Like it- 

  [01:00:41] Matt: Also in that area you've got flight paths. So we talk about comfort, we got sounds- Sound, yeah ... vibrations, odors, uh, air quality. So there's... We, when we talk, everyone thinks comfort is just thermal. There are multiple things.

  [01:00:50] So comfort for you might not be thermal and you might be okay for running the heater all day and night, but you're under a flight path and sound is a huge thing. 

  [01:00:57] Joel: Mm. 

  [01:00:58] Hamish: I mean, can I... Or, do you know, sort of [01:01:00] land back on what I was getting at before. It sounds like we all want the same thing. 

  [01:01:03] Joel: Yeah. Mm. 

  [01:01:03] Hamish: Like w- w- with our home, we want the same thing, we just happen to put a label on it.

  [01:01:08] Joel: Well, yeah, I think, well, it's, well, to, for, the... To be honest, for me, and for, I think for a lot of guys, it just seems like unattainable or like kind of over there- Yeah ... in comparison to what we do. It, it just- Whereas what we've been discussing just in this last part, I'm going, "Yeah. All right. Maybe I need to put some effort- Yeah

  [01:01:28] into this, and this is gonna make my life a bit better." And- 

  [01:01:30] Hamish: It's like a 

  [01:01:30] Joel: cake ... maybe the air quality for my kids, and- I think, I think it- ... now I'm starting to think about the air quality of my kids. Yeah. 

  [01:01:34] Hamish: I, I... It's just like the thing is, what Passive- I'm not 

  [01:01:36] Joel: drinking the fucking Kool-Aid by

  [01:01:41] Hamish: the way. What Passive... He's, he's- I sipped it. What Passive House did was literally just take good building practice and put a badge on 

  [01:01:45] Joel: it. Yeah. It didn't invent it. 

  [01:01:46] Hamish: Like it's- Physics is physics. Physics 

  [01:01:47] Joel: is physics. I think the big thing is it just seems so nerdy. Like it's so science-y. 

  [01:01:51] Matt: So no, it's passionate.

  [01:01:52] Yeah. People are passionate- Passionate ... and people are willing to share information, and they care about the work they're doing. 

  [01:01:56] Joel: Yeah, but why can't like cooler people be more passionate? You guys are cooler people- ... I think [01:02:00] compared to what it used to be. 

  [01:02:01] Hamish: Like, uh, cool people, okay. 

  [01:02:02] Joel: Yeah. No, but don't... No, but like you're saying you- No, but like you're saying I'm cool

  [01:02:04] Yeah, you guys are pretty cool. Yeah. The bit that... Matt, I, I thought Matt was cool after he started bagging me a bit. Like, you know, giving me shit. I'm start- I sta- 

  [01:02:11] Matt: I have started trolling you 

  [01:02:12] Joel: slightly. Just ribbing you. I was like, "All right. I, I, I like this guy now." 

  [01:02:16] Matt: Um, what other questions you got? Yeah. 

  [01:02:18] Joel: I thought you were cool when you were, uh, when I knew you had your own excavator.

  [01:02:20] I was like, "Yeah." Yeah, 

  [01:02:23] Hamish: yeah. That's- That's cool ... that's a b- b- investment worthwhile. 

  [01:02:25] Joel: Um- 

  [01:02:25] Hamish: Let's do a couple more. Let's, uh- 

  [01:02:26] Joel: Yeah ... I'm getting hungry. Biggest, biggest waste of money in, um, biggest waste of money that people think is sustainable. Cars. 

  [01:02:33] Hamish: My excavator. 

  [01:02:35] Joel: No, but no one thinks an excavator is sustainable.

  [01:02:37] Cars. Like as in electric cars? No, just cars in general. But like for, for people- Biggest waste- ... like especially with young, you start a business, "Oh, I buy a top car", and bl- that's where I, where I'm getting at. Oh, we'll come to that. Okay. What's one thing every chippy should understand about moisture? 

  [01:02:51] Hamish: You need to stop it from getting in your frame And it's gonna ruin your building Moisture- So 

  [01:02:55] Joel: like basically building wraps.

  [01:02:57] Building 

  [01:02:57] Hamish: wraps 

  [01:02:57] Matt: are huge. Yeah, no, I, I, I would go as, I would say as [01:03:00] long as it can dry out. Wet i- it's like wet i- wedding is okay as long as 

  [01:03:05] Hamish: you- 

  [01:03:05] Matt: Oh, okay. You know what? I- Dry exceeds 

  [01:03:05] Hamish: wedding ... I, I he- I hear that, but let's just- Yeah, don't let it, don't complicate ... let's just, let's not confuse it and just fucking wrap your building well.

  [01:03:11] Matt: Yeah. 

  [01:03:11] Joel: Yeah. 

  [01:03:11] Hamish: Yeah. Just wrap your building. 

  [01:03:12] Joel: Don't overcomplicate 

  [01:03:13] Hamish: it. Just 

  [01:03:13] Matt: like stop the water. And we use Pro Clima products. They are a sponsor. But like they have so many, and I'm not saying this 'cause they are a sponsor, they have so many educational free resources. Yeah. If you're in Victoria, Performance Membranes now, they do a training course.

  [01:03:24] It's free to come learn how to use it. Yeah. Yeah, okay. J- just it's a care thing. You, if you're gonna care about putting the, the, the architrave on or routing out the door, there's no difference with a membrane in caring how you install it. 

  [01:03:34] Joel: Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna ask one more serious question, then we've got this other funny little thing at the end.

  [01:03:39] But Like, it's not as simple as this. Like, the emotional cost of caring this much and actually running your business, your building business, based on values rather than profitability. You can still be- Because- We're, we're still profitable. No, but- Yeah ... you know what I mean. I- You said it already before.

  [01:03:58] Hamish: Yeah. No, 

  [01:03:59] Joel: no, 

  [01:03:59] Hamish: no. I've, [01:04:00] I've, I battle with this. And, you know, I go to bed at night time now knowing that- Even though I am not making as much money as I probably could or even that I care about it a little bit too much, it, it means more to me than the money in the bank, knowing that I've done it right. 

  [01:04:19] Matt: Yeah, okay.

  [01:04:19] 'Cause th- '

  [01:04:20] Hamish: cause I, 'cause I'm, I, as I said before, I'm dealing with projects that I've done in the past which weren't up to the standard that we're doing now, and that, that- 

  [01:04:28] Matt: So it's, so it's a le- it's a, it's you take a less slight cut, let's just say, but the no- the, the long term is probably gonna be beneficial because your, your risk is completely de-risked.

  [01:04:41] So in nine years you might get a tap on the, the, the shoulder and like, "Your house is fucked. All the hou- the roof needs to come off 'cause it's all moldy and completely water damage." We don't have that risk. 

  [01:04:50] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

  [01:04:51] Matt: Like it's completely d- it shouldn't s- we don't have it. It's very- 

  [01:04:54] Hamish: Lower, the risk 

  [01:04:54] Matt: is lower.

  [01:04:55] So, so we get to sleep at night, so we don't get... That, that number in financial we talk is, like, [01:05:00] mental health side of things. Like we, we have a pretty good work-life balance lifestyle. Some people might not think that we do, but we d- reality is we've got a great balance. Yeah. So how can you factor in those other things when, when we say, "What's the, the risk?"

  [01:05:14] And from a company perspective, look, I think you can still make it money. We see other builders like, uh, it seems like Kyle down in Tassie's making it work. You see that Jackson in his- Luke, Luke Davies. Yeah, Luke. They're making- Yeah ... like, it's profitable. It can work. It's just the- Fucking 

  [01:05:27] Joel: hard. 

  [01:05:27] Matt: Anything's hard.

  [01:05:28] I don't, I don't even think mine are. If it was easy, if it 

  [01:05:29] Joel: was- I don't, I don't, I don't think what I do is hard 

  [01:05:30] Matt: now ... if it was easy, everyone would be fucking doing 

  [01:05:32] Joel: it. No. No. I don't think what I do is hard, man. Yeah, yeah, you just- To make money. 

  [01:05:35] Matt: Yeah. 

  [01:05:36] Joel: Like I focus on profit. Yeah. I, I, I mean, all I need to do to make my business profitable is run it efficiently and do, do it correctly.

  [01:05:44] Like- 

  [01:05:44] Matt: So what's the difference with us then? We can still do the same thing. 

  [01:05:47] Joel: More money. 'Cause I, I'm, I'm- More money ... I make more profit than I did as a builder. 

  [01:05:51] Matt: Yeah, no, no, I'm not, I'm saying 

  [01:05:51] Joel: as a- And I'm de-risked ... oh, 

  [01:05:52] Matt: okay, as a builder, yes. 

  [01:05:53] Joel: I'm- Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I'm not, I'm not functioning as the principal contractor anymore.

  [01:05:58] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. 

  [01:05:58] Joel: Yeah. That's all [01:06:00] right. I wanted to... I look, I, I, I n- I just remember what it felt like for me trying to do the right thing, running a building company, trying to build better houses and reaching. Archi- And the fucking toll it took on me. You're doing very 

  [01:06:12] Matt: high- I couldn't handle it ... you're doing very high in architecturals, and that is where I think the problem is, and you've spoken about this before.

  [01:06:18] Mm. I think there's a huge difference in the level of s- I see it visibly from my team on site, the Abbey contract versus a non-Abbey contract. The team, when it's in, uh, our contract, the client relationships are better, the, the mood on site is a lot better, there's less eggshells to walk on, and there's just a more positive input attitude from everyone.

  [01:06:36] Joel: Yeah. 

  [01:06:37] Matt: And I think that is something that... And I've done Abbey contracts that have worked perfectly and fine, but I think that is a big a big thing when we talk about the type of builds because you just weren't doing the average build either. 

  [01:06:48] Joel: No, there was a lot of bespoke- 

  [01:06:50] Matt: Exactly ... 

  [01:06:51] Joel: fabrication- Ex- 

  [01:06:52] Matt: yeah

  [01:06:52] carpentry, all kinds of- So that comes at a cost too. Yeah. That's like- And how do 

  [01:06:55] Hamish: you, how do you probably approach that? 

  [01:06:56] Joel: Badly. 

  [01:06:57] Hamish: You're guessing. You're like- 

  [01:06:57] Matt: And we, we- Badly ... I, I don't do those jobs I 

  [01:06:59] Joel: price them all [01:07:00] poorly, yeah. 

  [01:07:00] Matt: Yeah, I don't do those jobs because they're just, I look at them and go, "Why?

  [01:07:03] They're not fucking possible." It's too fucking 

  [01:07:04] Joel: hard, man. 

  [01:07:04] Hamish: Yeah. All right, quick fire. Hit 

  [01:07:05] Joel: me. All right. Rapid fire, let's go. 

  [01:07:06] Hamish: Rapid fire 

  [01:07:08] Joel: Mindful or mindless? So I'm gonna say a thing, and then you're gonna decide. We've got two control questions to start with, so to get a, an idea. Blower door test. 

  [01:07:17] Hamish: Mindful.

  [01:07:18] Mindful. 

  [01:07:18] Joel: All right. Buying another ute. Mindless. 

  [01:07:21] Hamish: Mindless. 

  [01:07:21] Joel: All right. Now the third question- De- or it depends. It depends ... yeah, 

  [01:07:23] Hamish: depends. 

  [01:07:24] Joel: Buying a machine or, or a tool for a job. Depends on the situation. 

  [01:07:29] Hamish: Or mindless. 

  [01:07:29] Joel: I'm gonna go, no, you gotta pick one. I'm gonna go mindless. N- mindless. 

  [01:07:32] Hamish: I'm gonna say mindful.

  [01:07:34] Yeah, 

  [01:07:34] Joel: there's no, there's, uh- Yep ... you, you will always justify it. You never would. No, 

  [01:07:38] Hamish: no, because 

  [01:07:39] Matt: I'd like, I would like just outsource it. 

  [01:07:41] Joel: Yeah, yeah, this, th- this is my guy over here. Yeah. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'll buy the tools. 

  [01:07:45] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:07:45] Joel: Um, posting a reel instead of doing an invoice. Come on, 'cause you guys are big on socials.

  [01:07:52] Hamish: Mi- Mindless 

  [01:07:54] Joel: Mi- mindful- Yeah ... 'cause it could bring in 

  [01:07:55] Matt: the next client. '

  [01:07:56] Hamish: Cause my reels- There you go ... my reels, my reels- No ... uh, [01:08:00] happen outside of work hours, so. 

  [01:08:02] Matt: Yeah, I spend only three hours on my socials a week. 

  [01:08:04] Hamish: Invoice- Yeah ... invoicing's sort of done, you know- Okay ... 

  [01:08:07] Matt: normal work hours. And, yeah, invoice- invoicing is easy.

  [01:08:09] Hamish: We don't, I probably don't send, spend, send as many invoices- Yeah ... as what you do. 

  [01:08:12] Matt: Yeah. 

  [01:08:13] Joel: No, we do a lot of invoicing. 

  [01:08:14] Matt: Yeah, I don't do much invoicing. 

  [01:08:15] Joel: No, you guys would be- Progress claims ... every fucking 

  [01:08:16] Hamish: eight- Pro- progress claim ... eight weeks or 

  [01:08:17] Joel: something ... 

  [01:08:18] Hamish: yeah. Send it. Yeah, which is shit. 

  [01:08:19] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I don't miss that.

  [01:08:21] Hamish: Oh, fuck, I'm in 

  [01:08:23] Joel: the... Yep. All right, don't get too technical on this, Kyland. Triple glazing. It depends. Mindless. No. No, no, no, no, no. Mindless? I'm saying mindful 100%. I'm, I'm, I think I'm with you on mindless. Mindful. Like you, like living in a window. I don't think it's required. I think double glazing, you, it's just diminishing returns.

  [01:08:39] Sound, the sound. 

  [01:08:40] Matt: Yeah. 

  [01:08:40] Joel: Okay. I mean- Well, even with sound, it's better- Oh ... to have... Now I can be nerdy. Yeah. It's better to have two differing layers of glass. Yes. Uh, d- differing thicknesses, layers of glass than to have triple glazing. 

  [01:08:50] Matt: Yeah. Yes, I, yeah, I, I, I understand that, but there's all... Yes. 

  [01:08:53] Joel: I can be a nerd sometimes.

  [01:08:54] Yeah. Um, arguing in Instagram comments. 

  [01:08:57] Hamish: Mindless. 

  [01:08:57] Matt: Mindful. [01:09:00] 

  [01:09:01] Joel: Could have predicted that. Uh, knocking off early for beers. Mindful. Well, you don't drink, but or well for the boys and- Mindful. 

  [01:09:07] Hamish: Uh, mindful, definitely. Mindful. Yeah, yeah. 

  [01:09:09] Joel: Yeah. I think there's a bit of a stereotype around that, you know? Yeah. But it's actually good.

  [01:09:13] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:09:13] Joel: You know? Or the Negroni. Just knocking, knocking off early. You know what 

  [01:09:15] Hamish: I mean? Like wh- whether you- Yeah ... put a beer or whether you put a- Negroni ... coffee on or whatever. Yeah. A p- pub meal, whatever it is, yeah. 

  [01:09:21] Joel: Yeah. Mm, working Saturday because you misquoted a job. Mindless. 

  [01:09:26] Hamish: Mi- well, I don't, I couldn't do the last- Sometimes you have to

  [01:09:28] c- well, I couldn't do the last time I worked a Saturday on a job. Yeah. You 

  [01:09:31] Joel: should be able to get your shit 

  [01:09:31] Hamish: done on the day. Saturdays, Saturdays are my joint. 

  [01:09:33] Joel: Yeah. Building your own house. 

  [01:09:35] Hamish: Mindful. Mindful. 

  [01:09:36] Joel: All right. Starting a podcast. Mindful. 

  [01:09:38] Hamish: Mindful. 

  [01:09:40] Joel: Letting me host your podcast. Mindful. 

  [01:09:41] Hamish: Mindful. 

  [01:09:42] Joel: Hey. All right.

  [01:09:43] Definitely. I thought you were gonna say mindless. All right. Well, boys, unfortunately we did accidentally learn something, so I apologize to the listeners. This has been The Mindless Builder. Same c- podcast, same podcast, less science, more damage. Thanks for letting me hijack. 

  [01:09:59] Matt: Thanks, Joel. [01:10:00] Um, we do have to finish with one segment, Mindful Moment, MEGT, Australia's leading apprenticeship experts.

  [01:10:07] Hamish: I can go here. 

  [01:10:08] Matt: Yeah, go. 

  [01:10:08] Hamish: Because, um- The 

  [01:10:09] Matt: whole episode? 

  [01:10:10] Hamish: Yeah. No, I just think the whole episode, but also the f- and this is what I find really interesting about you, Joel. As a ch- as a carpenter, or as an apprentice and then a carpenter, like, the, the transition is to then the g- the holy grail is and become a builder.

  [01:10:24] You've got there and realized, "Oh shit, I don't like it up here." And I think m- my messaging now is that that is absolutely okay. 

  [01:10:30] Joel: Yeah. '

  [01:10:30] Hamish: Cause I look at you now, and I actually remember distinctly chatting with your brother, probably just after COVID, that we were just waxing lyrical about how fucking shit the industry was.

  [01:10:39] Joel: Yeah. 

  [01:10:40] Hamish: And he was saying this before I met you. And Andre's like, "Joel's just decided to get out of it. He's doing insurance stuff now. He's fucking jacked of it." 

  [01:10:47] Joel: Yeah. 

  [01:10:48] Hamish: And I remember listening to that going, "Fucking wonder if I could do that." But I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are the epitome of it being okay- Yeah

  [01:10:56] to take a step back and then enjoy life a bit more. 

  [01:10:58] Joel: Yeah. Yeah, I think you've just got to [01:11:00] know, like, where you sit. Yeah. You know? And what works for you, right? 

  [01:11:03] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:11:03] Matt: And just because you're seeing big businesses doing these awesome projects on Instagram doesn't mean it's always fun or profitable. 

  [01:11:09] Joel: Yeah, true.

  [01:11:09] Man, it's okay to do $3 million a year. It's okay to do a million. It's okay to do, like, 600 grand. 

  [01:11:15] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [01:11:15] Joel: Like, wherever you're comfortable and what works for you, just fuck it. It's 

  [01:11:18] Matt: okay to do 100K if it's just pure profit. Yeah. 

  [01:11:20] Joel: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and you're working, like, you know- Yeah, yeah ... 25 hours a week or something.

  [01:11:24] Yeah, exactly. 

  [01:11:25] Hamish: It's okay just to, just to trade Bitcoin as well. 

  [01:11:28] Joel: Well, my wife would be better at that than me, but... 

  [01:11:32] Hamish: I've never done it before. I just wanted to sound smart. 

  [01:11:34] Matt: Depends on the capital gains rules. 

  [01:11:38] Hamish: Oh,

  [01:11:42] fuck. Oh. Don't start. No, 

  [01:11:42] Matt: no, no, no, no. This is Mindless. This is gonna go Mindless. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I just knew- No, no, no ... that would get him going. No, 

  [01:11:46] Hamish: nah. 

  [01:11:46] Matt: He, 

  [01:11:46] Joel: he gets me. Like shoots fish in a barrel. 

  [01:11:48] Matt: Tracey, 

  [01:11:48] Hamish: turn, t- turn, turn it off because I want to talk about... Turn it off. Thanks, guys. Thanks, mate. Thank [01:12:00] you