Want to Build Passive Houses? Ask Us Anything

Written by Matthew Carland

“I couldn’t unsee it.”

That’s how Jimmy from June Building describes the moment Passive House and building science properly clicked. He’d been learning through Instagram, following builders like us who were talking about airtightness, ventilation, and comfort like it actually mattered, and then the Pro Clima scholarship popped up at the exact right time. Jimmy applied and he won the scholarship. He hasn’t looked back.

Jimmy’s background is pretty classic chippy-to-builder, but with a few turns. Apprenticeship in Ballarat, some travel to Banff in Canada, then Melbourne doing a mix of maintenance, commercial, and high-end residential. He moved up to the Northern Rivers in early 2020 for a lifestyle change, met his partner within months, and now has a two-and-a-half-year-old boy. The timeline matters because it explains why he’s asking the questions he’s asking. He’s early. He’s building the plane while flying it.

The episode is basically Jimmy flipping the usual format. Instead of being interviewed, he turns up with a notebook and starts picking our brains about what actually works, what doesn’t, and what builders get wrong when they first try to lift their standard. In the Northern Rivers, clients aren’t exactly walking in asking for Passive House. Jimmy hasn’t built one yet, and he’s honest about being in the first 12 months of business and taking what he can get. He’s also honest about how hard it is to retrofit performance into a house that’s already designed.

We keep coming back to the same point. Don’t lead with the label. Lead with the problem. Ask people what they hate about their current home. Drafts, noise, dust, mould, rooms that never feel right and that constant low-grade discomfort that everyone is just used to. In a humid climate, mould is the obvious entry point, because it’s everywhere and people are sick of it. The opportunity for Jimmy isn’t to convince people they want a Passive House. It’s to show them there’s a better way to build a house, full stop, and to make the benefits feel real without turning it into a technical lecture.

Jimmy asks us what details cause the most challenges, and we both go straight to retrofits. New builds are hard, but at least you can solve details early. Retrofits are where you lose time because nothing is square, nothing is level, and you don’t find the real problems until you start pulling things apart. That leads into the underquoting question, and the answer is blunt. Builders underquote labour. All labour. Detailing, wraps, window installs, internal battens, set-out, the stuff that looks small on paper but eats days on site.

Jimmy also pushes on PHPP. Matt’s view is that you need great consultants around you, and Hamish agrees, but he also pushes hard on the idea that a builder still needs to be able to read the PHPP and spot risk before it becomes a problem on site. For him, PHPP isn’t just a certification hurdle. It’s a pre-construction tool for optimising cost and performance, and for making sure you’re not delivering a “high performance” home that still feels wrong to live in.

Jimmy’s doing the work right now. He’s asking the questions that a lot of builders have but don’t want to admit they don’t know yet, and he’s building June Building around the idea of healthy, high-performing homes, whether they’re certified or not.

LINKS:

June Building: https://www.junebuilding.com.au/

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

Biz Tech Guru: https://www.biztechguru.com.au/


Connect with us on Instagram:@themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:  www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

  • [00:00:00] Matt: We have Jimmy from June Building. 

    [00:00:01] Jimmy: Correct. 

    [00:00:02] Matt: And Jimmy did the Passive House, uh, training last year, the certified tra- tradesperson, is that correct? 

    [00:00:08] Jimmy: Yeah, the tradesperson course. 

    [00:00:08] Matt: And you were the scholarship winner, scholarship winner from Pro Clima? Correct. So Pro Clima, awesome. We talk about them all the time, major sponsor.

    [00:00:16] But what, not only do they do, uh, and supply amazing wraps, they are huge on education, not only from their own education, but supporting things like the Passive House Tradesperson. I think at the moment they also have one live for the next year's one. Yeah. So probably by the time this episode's come out, that's probably been filled, but keep an eye out for it.

    [00:00:35] I'm assuming they'll do it next year. I think they've done it every year. Still spewing they never gave it to me 12 years ago. Uh 

    [00:00:41] Hamish: How'd you, how'd you get onto the scholarship? 

    [00:00:45] Jimmy: Um, pretty funny actually. When I first kinda get, started getting into, you know, Passive House building science, it was through, like, Instagram essentially- Yeah

    [00:00:56] and just social media. And, um, both of you [00:01:00] were two of the accounts that, um- ... I would come across, like, pretty often. Oh, Hamish is 

    [00:01:04] Matt: blushing. 

    [00:01:05] Jimmy: So yeah, it's, it's quite, you know, full circle even being here. But, um, yeah, I do remember seeing you, Matt, selfie to the camera, um, you know, saying, "If you're interested, go for it, apply."

    [00:01:18] Matt: Oh, so that actually literally got you over the line to do it? 

    [00:01:21] Jimmy: Yeah, essentially. And, um, I do have another friend who works with ProClimber, who encouraged me to go as well, Dave- Ah ... Brockman. 

    [00:01:29] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:01:29] Jimmy: Yeah, I know Dave. Yep. 

    [00:01:30] Matt: I literally called him before. 

    [00:01:32] Jimmy: Yeah. Um, and yeah- Dave, 

    [00:01:34] Hamish: Dave's been in the podcast. 

    [00:01:35] Matt: Yes.

    [00:01:35] Yes. 

    [00:01:35] Hamish: Yes. 

    [00:01:36] Jimmy: Yeah. And it was just great timing as I was, like, just getting into learning about, you know, building science, Passive House, and then the scholarship came up, and I was on my journey to, you know, um, starting June Building as well, so... 

    [00:01:50] Hamish: Do you wanna talk about your background? So, so you're obviously a chippy, now builder.

    [00:01:54] Yeah. Um, how... Yeah. T- tell us about, tell us about- Why June Building too? Is his last name June? [00:02:00] 

    [00:02:00] Jimmy: Um, short answer, it's my wife's middle name. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Um- 

    [00:02:06] Hamish: I, I quite like the name June. So do I. 

    [00:02:07] Matt: Who, your daughter's kind 

    [00:02:08] Hamish: of named- Well, she's Juniper. Junie. 

    [00:02:10] Jimmy: Yeah. Juniper, she's a Juneie. It rolls off the tongue nicely.

    [00:02:12] Hamish: Junie. 

    [00:02:13] Jimmy: It reads well. 

    [00:02:14] Hamish: Uh, be a go at Hamish's question. Sorry, I've hijacked. 

    [00:02:17] Jimmy: Um, question. So my story? 

    [00:02:19] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. Tell, tell us your background. 

    [00:02:20] Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, pretty, um, typical, um, journey in terms of construction. Apprenticeship out of school at 18. 

    [00:02:29] Hamish: Always based in Byron area? 

    [00:02:31] Jimmy: No, I'm from Victoria actually. Okay. I- 

    [00:02:33] Hamish: Whereabouts?

    [00:02:34] Jimmy: I grew up in Ballarat. 

    [00:02:35] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:02:35] Jimmy: And did my apprenticeship based in Ballarat. 

    [00:02:37] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:02:38] Jimmy: Um, so yeah, did my four years there, and then I did a bit of travel, as we all do, after the apprenticeship. Yep. So it was, spent a bit of time in Banff, Canada. 

    [00:02:47] Hamish: Nice. When were you there? 

    [00:02:49] Jimmy: Uh, it would've been start of 2015. 

    [00:02:53] Hamish: Okay.

    [00:02:53] Jimmy: Hamish lived abroad too. 

    [00:02:55] Hamish: Well, I was in, I was in Whistler, but, uh- Yeah ... quite, quite a bit earlier than [00:03:00] that. I was in 2013. 2003, sorry. 

    [00:03:03] Jimmy: Right, yeah, we wouldn't have crossed paths then, 

    [00:03:04] Hamish: I think. 2- 2003, yeah, yeah. Showing my age. 

    [00:03:07] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah, so essentially, um, did that, came home and moved to Melbourne and worked as a chippy on a few different kinda different sites really.

    [00:03:18] Did a bit of maintenance, did a bit of commercial- Yeah ... like in the city. 

    [00:03:22] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:03:22] Jimmy: And then, um, back to residential, high-end residential. 

    [00:03:28] Hamish: All, all in Victoria, like- 

    [00:03:31] Jimmy: Yeah, all that was in- All, all, 

    [00:03:32] Hamish: yeah, Melbourne ... 

    [00:03:32] Jimmy: Melbourne, and then, yeah, obviously my apprenticeship in Ballarat. Some of the 

    [00:03:35] Hamish: builders that you're working with down there?

    [00:03:37] Jimmy: Um, one of the good builders I was working with was Anderson Construction. Mm-hmm. They don't obviously do Passive House, but, um, kinda based in the eastern suburbs- Yeah ... like, uh, Malvern, that kinda area. 

    [00:03:47] Hamish: Is that where you lived when you were in Melbourne? 

    [00:03:48] Jimmy: Uh, no, I lived in, um, kinda northern suburbs. Okay. So- Fitzroy- 

    [00:03:53] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:03:53] Jimmy: yeah, yeah

    [00:03:53] Clifton Hill. 

    [00:03:54] Hamish: Yep, yep, yep, 

    [00:03:55] Jimmy: yep. Preston. 

    [00:03:56] Hamish: The normal area. And what about the move up to... When, when was the move out to Byron? Was that, uh, uh, [00:04:00] chasing the love of your life, or was it- 

    [00:04:02] Jimmy: Um, it was just a lifestyle change essentially. Um- Smoke some 

    [00:04:05] Hamish: joints. Well, 

    [00:04:08] Jimmy: if that's what you mean. It's, uh, 

    [00:04:08] Hamish: you can smoke joints in Fitzroy.

    [00:04:10] Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, probably more. 

    [00:04:12] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:04:12] Jimmy: Um, but yeah, lifestyle change. It was coming into 2020, so- Okay. A 

    [00:04:17] Matt: perfect 

    [00:04:18] Jimmy: time. The builder, Anderson Construction, who I was working for pretty much said, "We don't have anything on for January." And I had a close friend who was living in Brunswick Heads- Yep ... in the Shire. 

    [00:04:29] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:04:29] Jimmy: Um, so yeah, just like kind of packed up my van at the time- Mm-hmm

    [00:04:33] moved up, and the rest is history. 

    [00:04:37] Hamish: Well, and so you were with your partner then or met her- 

    [00:04:41] Jimmy: No, I met her, you know, within months of moving up here. 

    [00:04:45] Hamish: Kids? 

    [00:04:47] Jimmy: Yep, I'm a father. Yeah. Yeah. I have a two-and-a-half-year-old with- Nice ... with said partner, Mads. Lovely. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Boy or girl? Boy. Boy. Shilo's his name.

    [00:04:55] Hamish: Nice. 

    [00:04:56] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:04:56] Hamish: Any more, any more on, on the 

    [00:04:57] Jimmy: horizon? Um, yeah. 

    [00:04:58] Matt: Geez, you're clocky today. 

    [00:04:59] Hamish: Yeah. [00:05:00] No, man, I'm, uh, man, I'm done. I've got, I got, I got three tattoos- Got the snip ... I've got three tattoos on my arm. I, uh, I'm done. 

    [00:05:05] Jimmy: Yeah, no, we, we want more. We're kind of in the process of trying. Yeah. No pressure, but we'll- 

    [00:05:09] Hamish: Nice

    [00:05:10] Jimmy: yeah, it'd be great to have some more. 

    [00:05:12] Hamish: Yeah. And then the Passive House side of it, where, where did, uh, where did that come from? I know you'd say you're looking, listening to podcasts and stuff like that. 

    [00:05:20] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, like it, it kinda happened organically. Um, but you know, as soon as I learnt about it and started diving into it- It was just clicked with, yeah, my ethos in building- Yep

    [00:05:36] and, you know, the standard I like to build to or hold myself accountable to. 

    [00:05:40] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:05:41] Jimmy: So yeah, it just made sense, and once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. 

    [00:05:44] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:05:45] Jimmy: As you guys probably know. 

    [00:05:46] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:05:47] Jimmy: And, um- 

    [00:05:48] Matt: It's like literally the common story. 

    [00:05:49] Hamish: Yeah, it is, yeah. 

    [00:05:50] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:05:51] Matt: Drank the- It's almost like everyone reads off the Kool-Aid script.

    [00:05:53] Hamish: Drank the Kool-Aid, 

    [00:05:54] yeah, 

    [00:05:54] Jimmy: exactly, yep. Yeah, drank the Kool-Aid. Um, but yeah, and then I just found it so interesting, and, like, the building science behind it all- [00:06:00] Yep ... and the principles is- 

    [00:06:01] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:06:01] Jimmy: super interesting if you're that way minded. 

    [00:06:04] Hamish: And how are you finding, um, I guess the sales pitch in somewhere like Byron?

    [00:06:10] 'Cause we had Stu in here. You obviously know Stu. 

    [00:06:13] Jimmy: Yep. 

    [00:06:13] Hamish: Uh, had Stu in here before, and you know, he... Uh, like coincidentally, I did my Passive House Trace Person course with Gabrielle, who was his first Passive House client. 

    [00:06:26] Jimmy: Right, right. 

    [00:06:27] Hamish: So she couldn't find anyone in 2018, 2019, to build a Passive House, so she went and did the course.

    [00:06:34] Jimmy: Right, right. 

    [00:06:35] Hamish: So- 

    [00:06:35] Jimmy: Crazy ... 

    [00:06:36] Hamish: and I know it would've- Yeah, small 

    [00:06:37] Jimmy: world ... 

    [00:06:38] Hamish: and I know it would've been challenging for like seven or eight years ago now. Now it'd be easy. I mean, I'm just... Yeah, I, I, I'm interested to hear about, um, the education that you're seeing, what are the clients and the designers knowing about Passive House now versus Stu back then who- 

    [00:06:58] Matt: Mm

    [00:06:58] Hamish: was having to explain [00:07:00] what it is and the health benefits of it. 

    [00:07:01] Yeah, '

    [00:07:01] Matt: cause you would've gone in with some knowledge already. 

    [00:07:03] Hamish: Yeah, well- 

    [00:07:03] Matt: But when we both did it, it was like, "What the fuck is mechanical ventilation?" 

    [00:07:06] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:07:07] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I, I still find in the Northern Rivers it's not clients' priority, to be honest- Yeah

    [00:07:16] um, compared to, you know, the southern states. 

    [00:07:19] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:07:20] Jimmy: Obviously you see, like Stu is doing, like, such good training and awareness- Yeah ... and it's a lot more prela- prevalent, but- I don't think clients are necessarily asking for it so much. 

    [00:07:32] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:07:32] Jimmy: The other ones are- 

    [00:07:33] Matt: Have you got a passive house yet? Have you got one?

    [00:07:35] Jimmy: No, I haven't. 

    [00:07:36] Matt: Have you got anything remotely close? Like, have you been able to- 

    [00:07:38] Jimmy: No. 

    [00:07:39] Matt: Okay. 

    [00:07:40] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:07:40] Jimmy: And, yeah, I mean, like, obviously I'm in the first, you know, 12 months of June building. 

    [00:07:45] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:07:46] Jimmy: So I'm kind of taking what I can get. 

    [00:07:47] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:07:48] Jimmy: But, you know, the goal is to move into, I guess, the niche- 

    [00:07:52] Hamish: Yeah ... of doing it more 

    [00:07:53] Jimmy: times.

    [00:07:53] And, and are, 

    [00:07:54] Hamish: and are you finding, you know, with your knowledge around, well, what you know, uh, are you finding it an easy [00:08:00] conversation with clients when you're saying, "Hey, these are the building wraps that we use," and... 

    [00:08:04] Jimmy: Um, yeah. So Pro Clima is actually everywhere in Northern Rivers. Yeah. Like, a lot of builders have been using that for a long time.

    [00:08:13] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:08:14] Jimmy: And that's the standard, like, it's not even a- almost a conversation- 

    [00:08:18] Hamish: Right ... 

    [00:08:19] Jimmy: on, on, on, like, estimation and stuff like that. But yeah, I've, I've... I'm just coming in to fit off on, I guess, my maiden job, and, um, it was already designed and stuff, so I find it, yeah, a little bit tricky- Yeah ... if it's, if they don't know anything about it, the house is designed, you know, trying to convince them- 

    [00:08:40] Hamish: It's hard to, it's hard to get it in, yeah

    [00:08:42] Jimmy: this certain thing. Yeah. Obviously- There's certain, like, things you can do, like, did, like, ventilated drainage cavities and- Yep ... all that kinda thing, but, you know, we're not installing an ERV or- 

    [00:08:54] Matt: Yep ... 

    [00:08:55] Jimmy: you know- Are you having convers- The more- Are you ha- ... double-glazed or triple-glazed windows or anything 

    [00:08:59] Matt: Are you having con- We're doing [00:09:00] single-glazed.

    [00:09:01] Jimmy: Yeah, this one is single-glazed window. 

    [00:09:03] Matt: Just is insane that that's actually happening still. 

    [00:09:05] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:09:05] Jimmy: Yeah, I find it... Like, a lot of jobs that I come across my desk is- 

    [00:09:09] Hamish: But it's just you were saying that, um- 

    [00:09:11] Matt: No, that was Simon, but he's in Byron, in a cooler climate at times. This is, we're in Brisbane today. Yeah.

    [00:09:17] Two different climates. Like- 

    [00:09:18] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

    [00:09:20] Jimmy: It's pr- yeah, it's, it's very humid in Byron. Like, so yeah. Which is even 

    [00:09:24] Matt: worse 

    [00:09:25] Jimmy: potentially. I, yeah, I, I agree. Like, they should be banned essentially, but... 

    [00:09:30] Hamish: Well, actually, no, Hamish and Verity were talking about, um, single-glazing up here is- Yeah, yeah ... is prevalent.

    [00:09:35] Yeah. 

    [00:09:36] Matt: Yeah, sorry, it was, yes. 

    [00:09:36] Hamish: Yeah. Geez. Are you, are you, um... I mean, and this is no, obviously no criticism how you build. Uh, 'cause, you know, you're, you're here today. You've done the, the scholarship through Pro Clima. You obviously wanna, as a building company, you wanna build better. 

    [00:09:49] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:09:49] Hamish: Are you, are you finding that as you talk through some of these things with your current client and your potential future clients where you're working in pre-con, like, [00:10:00] are you, are you finding it a hard conversation to bring up, like, around better building and, and the reasons why you would wanna do that?

    [00:10:08] Jimmy: Um, no. Like, obviously clients want their house built well. 

    [00:10:14] Hamish: Yeah, yep. 

    [00:10:15] Jimmy: But... And, like, incorporating, like, drainage, wall drainage and stuff is, like, an easy win. 

    [00:10:21] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:10:21] Jimmy: But- You don't 

    [00:10:21] Matt: have to tell them about it ... 

    [00:10:23] Jimmy: yeah, you don't have to, but- 

    [00:10:24] Hamish: Yeah. What's in the code now? 

    [00:10:26] Jimmy: You know, asking them to potentially import windows from Europe or- 

    [00:10:31] Hamish: Yeah, okay.

    [00:10:32] Yeah, 

    [00:10:32] Jimmy: okay ... sort of HRV or ERV- 

    [00:10:34] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:10:34] Jimmy: that's a, that's a whole nother conversation. It's a 

    [00:10:35] Hamish: whole other conversation. Ball 

    [00:10:36] Jimmy: game, yeah. 

    [00:10:37] Hamish: But I guess if you, if, if, like, you- You can just ask some questions around, you know, h- you know, their current home. How does it feel? Like, are you finding that you're doing X, Y and Z in summer?

    [00:10:46] Yeah. Do you find you're getting mold on your, you know, on your, your couches and pillows and stuff like that? I mean, th- these are conversations where you can open up the solution. Yeah. Like, 

    [00:10:55] Matt: what do you hate about your current home? I always ask that, and it's one of the easiest [00:11:00] questions, because, "Oh, I hate the drafts, I hate how it's always cold and it's really noisy outside, and the air, like, it's so dusty and the air quality sucks."

    [00:11:07] I'm like, "Okay, so you want a Passive House." 

    [00:11:09] Jimmy: Mm. Yeah, I think you could ask 90% of the people who live in Northern Rivers and they all have a mold issue in their home. 

    [00:11:15] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:11:16] Jimmy: It's so prevalent. Oh, 

    [00:11:17] Matt: yeah. Yeah. And I'd just say- It's horrible ... "Are you, are you okay in your next home to have mold?" "No, no, 

    [00:11:20] Hamish: no." But I- "Okay"

    [00:11:21] but I guess this, I guess this is the, the opportunity that exists for you in your marketing. Like, you know, you can talk to that. Yeah. Because, you know, if, if... And you can ask, like, you know, "Do you have mold on your, in your home?" And if the answer's yes, well- 

    [00:11:33] Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, that was, yeah, another one of the things that drew me to Passive House is, like, that just kills that issue.

    [00:11:39] Yeah. And it, it just made sense in where, where we live. 

    [00:11:42] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:11:42] Matt: It does make sense. 

    [00:11:43] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:11:44] Matt: It w- and it works. 

    [00:11:45] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, I guess- Yeah ... you know, and we were, we were chatting with Stu earlier on today and, you know, I think Matt asked the question, you know, "Are we scaring people off by saying Passive House?" And maybe if we just eliminate the word Passive House-

    [00:11:57] and just- Build a house ... well, [00:12:00] just house. Yeah. We'll just call it a house. 

    [00:12:01] Jimmy: I mean, yeah, that, that's a good point. Like, a lot of people probably still don't even know what it is. 

    [00:12:05] Hamish: Yeah. If you could just say, "Hey- Or how it saves ... you know, you know the mold you've... Like, we can solve the mold problem- Yeah ... if we, if we follow these steps.

    [00:12:11] Yeah. And don't even bring up Passive House. 

    [00:12:13] Matt: But I don't... Do you talk? I don't talk about Passive House. Like, I, I think we're in a position where- W- this is, 

    [00:12:18] Hamish: it's a- Well, you are probably down there, too ... it's an, it's an unfair- 

    [00:12:22] Matt: Comparison ... 

    [00:12:22] Hamish: comparison because we've done all the hard work over seven years to get to the point where clients are coming to us for that solution.

    [00:12:28] Mm. Yeah. Whereas, you know, Jimmy in Northern Rivers in New South Wales, where I'd say one out of 100 people, one out of 1,000 people know what a Passive House is. 

    [00:12:40] Jimmy: Yeah. It's tricky. But yeah, I guess it's about, you know, education-based marketing- Yeah ... and that kind of thing. 

    [00:12:45] Hamish: It 

    [00:12:46] Jimmy: is- And there are a few builders, like I see popping up more that have done their course and, 

    [00:12:51] Hamish: you 

    [00:12:51] Jimmy: know, advocating 

    [00:12:52] Hamish: for it.

    [00:12:52] Is, is, is there an, is there an opportunity for you to build one for yourself? 

    [00:12:58] Jimmy: Um, uh, [00:13:00] I'd probably have to sell my house, but yeah. Uh, like, it is something I've thought about, like- 

    [00:13:05] Matt: Could you retrofit your own house now? 

    [00:13:07] Jimmy: Uh- No. Okay. I actually renovated this house in 2021. Okay. Obviously before I did the course.

    [00:13:17] Hamish: You don't wanna go and undo all that? 

    [00:13:19] Jimmy: No. 

    [00:13:19] Hamish: No. 

    [00:13:19] Jimmy: No. 

    [00:13:19] Hamish: Sell it, cash in, build, build it- 

    [00:13:21] Jimmy: But the things I wish I knew then, or n- or now I wish I knew then- 

    [00:13:27] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:13:28] Jimmy: I would've built it a little bit differently. 

    [00:13:29] Hamish: I, do you know what I think we all... Like, I, I've used this example before. Like, we've, um, must be about three or four years ago now, we, we renovated our past house over seven years.

    [00:13:39] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:13:39] Hamish: And as we were doing the extension out the back, you know, I, I'm peeling corrugated roof sheets off the pop-out extension we did to the bathroom, where it was just foil insulation stuck immediate to the frame. It just 

    [00:13:53] Matt: disintegrated too? 

    [00:13:54] Hamish: And then I just screwed metal cladding straight over the top of it.

    [00:13:57] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:13:58] Hamish: And I'm like, "Hey, this is the elevation of [00:14:00] my building company. You know, this is what we used to do, and this is what we're doing now." 

    [00:14:03] Jimmy: Yeah. Oh, and like, you could ask any chippy, like, probably over the age of 30, and they've done the same thing. Yeah. 

    [00:14:10] Matt: So I wanna go, you said educated-based marketing.

    [00:14:13] It's a really interesting conversation because- Um, how do I say this? Uh, I, no- Just say it, man. No, no, no, no, no. This isn't actually bad. I think what I see a lot of people, and this is probably feed- not feedback, but a train of thought to think about, is when we talk educated based marketing, who we ... Okay, let's edu- uh, education and marketing.

    [00:14:40] Who are you trying to educate is one. So Hamish and I have the ability to be able to now educate to clients because that's what we build for, but to, to trades because ultimately we bring them into the ... or builders, we bring them into the Mindful Builder. 

    [00:14:52] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:14:52] Matt: Now, the biggest issue I see with that is when you got younger builders educating on certain things, it's [00:15:00] like they're educate- it's like they're marketing to trades, not to the client, and they're try- they're, they're, a lot of their social media is, like, showing real technicalities on how to do stuff, which is great, but ultimately does that win you a client?

    [00:15:13] Do you get what I'm saying? 

    [00:15:14] Hamish: I think that the more you can put on your social media to showcase the kind of builder and the kind of values you have as a business, regardless of who you're marketing to, is beneficial. 

    [00:15:27] Matt: Yeah, it's, but it needs to be client focused still. I think no ma- and, and always in my brain when I'm putting something together, it's like, will a client still want to consume this?

    [00:15:35] Jimmy: Mm. 

    [00:15:35] Matt: Because at the end of the day, I can put all the amount of ... I'm not an, I'm not a influencer like Simon who, who was here before, selling myself to, uh, get some money through the door that way. Yeah. I sell my social media to try and win jobs, and I think we've got a, I, I see it's a big issue that I see with so many people is they, I kinda feel like they don't know who their, their target market is when the- with the- with their social media and what they're trying to do.

    [00:15:58] They're just trying to [00:16:00] rightly put content out and rightly try to educate. But does, at that stage when you're starting off young, the education come at the risk of not gaining the client? 

    [00:16:09] Hamish: Well, I mean, I think, I think you certainly need to have your avatar client. Yeah. And then, and then, you know, what you do need to think about what they want to see.

    [00:16:18] Mm-hmm. I mean, I think- Yeah ... you know, if you look at my social media, it's a mixture of all of it. 

    [00:16:21] Matt: But that's what I'm saying, you can do that now. 

    [00:16:22] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:16:22] Matt: yeah. But, like, that's kind of what I'm get- That's true ... like, that's what I'm saying. You have the ability because you've got multiple hats that you wear- Yeah

    [00:16:28] to be able to market yourself. Plus you've also got the runs on the board. But I see people trying to get into this, and this is maybe something to think about- Yeah ... is like, um, uh, I think we had the conversation with James in SA about this too, like how to talk about Passive House, and I just- Oh, yeah ... and I just think that we all get cl- just putting something on social media doesn't mean it's gonna translate to a job and you've got to still, and it might not be this, that might not get you, the post that might not get you the likes or the reach or the, the engagement is probably the job that's gonna, the [00:17:00] post that's gonna get you a job.

    [00:17:00] Hamish: Well, if you think about the posts that do well for you and me, guarantee none of those people- No, no ... are gonna be buying homes from us. 

    [00:17:09] Matt: No, no, but, but, but no, exactly, but that's the dopamine hit that people will chase because you get, "Hey, I just got a million views on this one." Yeah, yeah. That's not gonna translate to a job- 

    [00:17:17] Hamish: Yeah

    [00:17:18] Matt: most likely, um, because it's then going worldwide and that reach. Like I, I like my sweet spot for me personally right now with my social media, I like a less reach because I know it's more targeted. 

    [00:17:27] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:17:28] Matt: I know that I'm most likely just hitting people within what I'm after. I don't care for hitting someone in Perth, 'cause it's not gonna affect me for building.

    [00:17:36] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:17:37] Matt: Um, but I also have my mindful builder hat on sometimes where I'm just purely just trying to get followers from a, a reel that's- Yeah, yeah, definitely ... educational and construction. 

    [00:17:44] Hamish: Now I see you've got a exercise book of pen- 

    [00:17:49] Matt: You said you had a few questions. A few questions, yeah. That looks like five hours of questions.

    [00:17:53] Jimmy: Just a few scribbles. Okay, go for it. 

    [00:17:54] Hamish: I would, I would love you to ask some questions. 

    [00:17:57] Jimmy: Yeah. Well, I do have one that you've [00:18:00] pretty much just touched on. Going off that, we'll start there. But how did you build an audience or a following, and what actually worked versus what didn't? 

    [00:18:12] Hamish: You go first, 'cause you, I think you're better 

    [00:18:13] Jimmy: at this these days.

    [00:18:14] Yeah, no, I'll just open it up for you. 

    [00:18:14] Matt: Um, so- You need to be trusted first. I think you need to build trust with people, and I think that's something that gets lost now right now with so much AI slop. The, and people just generating absolute shit content. Mm. But also, the hard thing, it's always so hard now to stand out and be seen because everything is the fucking same.

    [00:18:34] And the amount of stuff that we get copied by, and you probably get the same. Like, literally I've had reels and social media content l- word for word practically been translated into something else. Which is, you know what? I take that as a, um, I've done something right. But I think, one, you need to work out how to stand out and be different.

    [00:18:52] Two, you have to have an opinion. If you don't have an opinion, you just get lost. Uh, I, I, I honestly think for growth- You're talking to [00:19:00] me? You just get- 

    [00:19:00] Hamish: Matt, Matt, Matt's- Ta- ... version of him want- having an opinion might not be to everyone's taste 

    [00:19:04] Matt: Don't, but don't be- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but do you know what? But it, it won't be.

    [00:19:07] I'm- Yeah, 

    [00:19:07] Hamish: exactly ... 

    [00:19:08] Matt: like, I'm not gonna sit on the fence and still have 50% of people like me or not. I'd rather go, "Hey, I'm gonna go have an opinion," and only 40% of people like me, but that 40% will engage with me- Yeah, you get engagement ... and they will buy from me. Yeah. Yeah. Where the 50% might be like, "Hmm, Hamish is a nice guy."

    [00:19:21] Not saying that, but like I would rather- I'm, I'm a nice guy ... really hit my niche on people that I want, that's my type of client- Yeah ... that has my way of thinking. Um, and I, I, I think, I think just don't be afraid to have an opinion. The other thing is sometimes just get shit out. Don't curate it and over-curate it.

    [00:19:41] The best stuff that I have performing sometimes I've just whipped together quickly. 

    [00:19:44] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:19:45] Matt: But you've also, you've also gotta, um, you can't forget that you've gotta pick the, you've gotta find your client. Like, you just... Yeah. I'd also say just don't be fucking scared. 

    [00:19:59] Jimmy: Yeah, 

    [00:19:59] Matt: I guess that- Like, [00:20:00] don't be scared-

    [00:20:00] that's a massive thing ... to be trolled. Don't just who... I remember the first reel I did when I put my face in the camera, I was like, "Bleh." And I'm like, now, oh, how many hours of consumable content do we have? 

    [00:20:10] Hamish: Um, I'm gonna add something really simple to that. Like, in my opinion, humans buy from humans. 

    [00:20:18] Jimmy: Mm-hmm.

    [00:20:18] Hmm. That's 

    [00:20:19] Hamish: a good 

    [00:20:19] Jimmy: one right now too. 

    [00:20:20] Hamish: So- 

    [00:20:21] Jimmy: Yeah, I guess that goes back to the trust. 

    [00:20:23] Hamish: Yeah. So if you think about, um- I guess all the, and I'm just gonna talk about me personally for a second. I'm visible on SBA and visible, visible on the podcast. I'm getting my face in front of the camera, um, on my own social media.

    [00:20:38] Like 100% of the time when clients are contacting me, and I'm sure they con- when they're contacting you, they already know me. 

    [00:20:45] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:20:46] Hamish: They know that I'm married, they know that I have kids, they know that I- Yeah ... you know, try to be healthy, that I work out and I go to the gym. Um, they know that I like to travel up to New South Wales to go mountain bike riding Christmastime.

    [00:20:57] Like I personally don't [00:21:00] think that it's bad to share those things with people because it builds an element of trust and familiarization with that person. I know, uh, some people are, "I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk about my family. I wanna keep that separate." 

    [00:21:13] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:21:14] Hamish: Whereas I, I don't, I disagree with that.

    [00:21:18] And I think particularly when you're a small custom home builder, when the relationship is so important from the moment they call to the moment you hand over the keys and beyond, like that relationship can start before you even meet them. 

    [00:21:32] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:21:33] Hamish: So I think that's really important. 

    [00:21:35] Matt: I also think social media isn't the only form of marketing.

    [00:21:38] Everyone just says like, "I have to do social media." It's a great free resource, but there are so many good resources to market. Yeah. 

    [00:21:44] Jimmy: Example? 

    [00:21:45] Matt: Uh, like SEO, GEO. We've got a podcast which isn't that easy to do. There's also like, um, open house days. There's, uh, networking events, um- 

    [00:21:56] Hamish: I, can I, can I say something?

    [00:21:58] Like just where your business [00:22:00] is at right now, if I'm just being honest, I'd just pick the, I think social media's a really easy thing to start with. 

    [00:22:06] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:22:06] Hamish: I, I think, I, I personally feel that's easy. 

    [00:22:08] Matt: It's free and easy, but it i- but it's also, and my wife said this, you have to own it and you have to put effort into it.

    [00:22:14] You can't just put one post up this month and then next month. You have to put your effort in. 

    [00:22:18] Hamish: The other thing that I'd written down was- Like, have a strategy. Yeah. Like, my strategy for a long time's been Tuesday night educational, Thursday or Friday there's like- Sunday night pretty picture ... there's like a builder, um, or educational reel, and then Sunday night- Yeah

    [00:22:35] pretty picture- Yeah ... or a Sunday description. So there's like a rhythm of the, of our posts, and I think that's a really easy way to start. 

    [00:22:43] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:22:44] Hamish: I'm gonna do three posts a week, and I'm gonna commit to that for a period of time, and then you've got a body of content. So you- you're popping up on people's post.

    [00:22:51] You... 'Cause as Matt said, if you're not constantly, like, posting, then you're just gonna fall off people's algorithm. 

    [00:22:58] Jimmy: Yeah, and that's [00:23:00] 100% what my page is like at the moment. Yeah. Just a random post here and there. Try to put a story up here and there, but... 

    [00:23:07] Hamish: But, but you also need to think about, like, who, you know, as Matt said, who, who are the people that you're trying to, um, encourage, and what, what message are you trying to tell them about your business?

    [00:23:15] I think, I think 

    [00:23:16] Matt: SEO is, across all media, social media and website, is where I'd be spending my time. 

    [00:23:22] Jimmy: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, 'cause you could put a post up that maybe only builders will see, and they'll go, "Oh yeah, that's a nice detail," but a client doesn't know what they're looking at or...

    [00:23:36] Hamish: Yeah, but this is, this is where I feel like you, you have the ability to then educate them. 

    [00:23:39] Jimmy: Yeah. Well, that's where that 

    [00:23:40] Matt: comes in. Yeah. You've got to find the, like, yeah, y- you've got to find out how does the client go, "Oh, I need that in my house." Mm. "I'll, I'll call him. He's doing that right." Or her. 

    [00:23:49] Hamish: What else you got on there?

    [00:23:50] I, I like these questions. 

    [00:23:52] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. I've got a fair few. Great. 

    [00:23:54] Hamish: No, no- Let's wrap, let's rapid fire. Let's go 

    [00:23:56] Jimmy: Okay. How did you both get into Passive House? 

    [00:23:59] Matt: [00:24:00] Did the course. 

    [00:24:01] Hamish: Uh, Sven told me about it. 

    [00:24:02] Matt: Yeah, just did the course, and then it was rip the Band-Aid off and just went all in. 

    [00:24:05] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:24:06] Jimmy: Okay. Um, let's go. Um, what's a big misconception about Passive House?

    [00:24:12] Hamish: That it's only for cool climates. 

    [00:24:14] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:24:17] Matt: I think one's different to normal 

    [00:24:19] Hamish: That it's more expensive 

    [00:24:20] Matt: Yeah, that, I'd wanted to say that but I didn't want to- Yeah, that was an 

    [00:24:22] Jimmy: obvious one I thought myself

    [00:24:27] Matt: That you don't need mechanical ventilation. Like there's a mi- there's a big misconception I think that- Is there a misconception? ... houses that don't, oh, you don't need a HR mechanical ventilation at home. 

    [00:24:35] Hamish: No, that's one of the, one of the principles. 

    [00:24:37] Matt: No, but I've heard people not, "Oh, like, oh no, you don't need one."

    [00:24:40] It's like people saying you can't open your windows and doors, but I think there's a, an idea- Mm ... that I just, oh, I can just run at, uh, six air exchanges and, uh, I, I just won't be airtight and I'll have a HR. Yeah. Okay. I ju- I think there's a whole misconception in that area, and I feel very strongly about 

    [00:24:53] Hamish: that.

    [00:24:53] Yeah. I, I think 100% of homes need a ventilate- dedicated ventilation- Yeah ... strategy, whatever that is. 

    [00:24:58] Jimmy: Yeah. Okay. Okay. They're both good [00:25:00] Uh, here's a nice one. Um, what site details do you find cause the most challenges? 

    [00:25:07] Matt: Retrofits. 

    [00:25:08] Hamish: Site as in, as in, um, like detailing of junctions and- 

    [00:25:14] Jimmy: Yeah ... walls and- Like that kind of thing.

    [00:25:15] Oh, 

    [00:25:15] Matt: retrofitting old windows into double brick. 

    [00:25:18] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:25:18] Hamish: Yeah, I think that the retrofit space is the most challenging part. I think if you are involved in pre-construction, then the site details shouldn't be tricky, 'cause you're solving them. 

    [00:25:28] Matt: I... We've... I've got one right now, it's not a passive house, but it's a high-performing, and fuck me, are we draining time on detailing windows.

    [00:25:35] Like- Mm. Like, and that's with James from Alter Eco, who James m- myself have a very clear understanding on how things work. We have consumed time, and I mean- 

    [00:25:44] Hamish: Why? 

    [00:25:45] Matt: Because every window on site is, until you start ripping things out, they're all out of parallel- Oh, okay. Yeah ... 

    [00:25:50] Hamish: out of level, out of 

    [00:25:50] Matt: height. 

    [00:25:50] Hamish: So, so, we're, we're talking, yeah, okay, a new home?

    [00:25:52] Matt: Oh, a 

    [00:25:53] Hamish: new home. A new home? Yeah. A new home. Oh, a new 

    [00:25:54] Matt: home, that's easy. 

    [00:25:55] Hamish: Okay. A new home, I think the details should be resolved. No, but 

    [00:25:57] Matt: there's no... On a new home, there's no detail that we don't know. I, [00:26:00] 

    [00:26:00] Hamish: I think- Yeah ... the retrofit's the most difficult. 

    [00:26:01] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Like, retrofitting is- Yeah ... so complex. Yeah. Like, whatever you think it's gonna take for windows, uh, demolition, just double it.

    [00:26:10] Jimmy: I guess this kind of leads into this question. Um, any lessons on where builders commonly underquote when first building to high performance 

    [00:26:19] Matt: or labor? Just all labor, carpentry labor. It's all labor. All labor. It's 

    [00:26:22] Hamish: all 

    [00:26:22] Matt: labor. Like- 

    [00:26:22] Hamish: It's detailing, it's building 

    [00:26:23] Matt: wraps ... internal battens- It's- ... detailing around windows to wrap your, your easy reveal in.

    [00:26:28] Yeah. Time to set out the windows, the external cavity battens, all of it. '

    [00:26:31] Hamish: Cause, 'cause a lot of the time, you're kind of doing this... You're, you're... There's always a first time to do things, right? And so you're always just gonna guess. 

    [00:26:39] Matt: And, and- I'm still under on some, I'm still over on some things. 

    [00:26:42] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, we're actually getting quicker at our building wraps now.

    [00:26:46] Matt: Oh, that, 

    [00:26:46] Hamish: that 

    [00:26:46] Matt: building wrap's a, i- very- Bu- building, 

    [00:26:49] Hamish: building wraps and installing windows- That's 

    [00:26:50] Matt: probably... Yeah ... 

    [00:26:51] Hamish: we're, we're actually, um... I've just been tracking it over a co- over a couple of projects now, and I'm like, "Fuck, we're getting quick at 

    [00:26:56] Matt: this." In... It's, it's the inter- internal lockup of carpentry perspective, I'd [00:27:00] say- Mm

    [00:27:00] is where you can chew money. 

    [00:27:01] Jimmy: Do you, like, either of you have either, like, assemblies or recipes that you use for that kind of thing, or is it just based off previous jobs? Are you, are 

    [00:27:10] Matt: you talking about, like, a- 

    [00:27:11] Hamish: When, 

    [00:27:11] Matt: when we're costing ... like per square meter or linear meter? 

    [00:27:13] Jimmy: Yeah, let's say, like a wall with drainage cavity.

    [00:27:17] Matt: Nah. Nah, everything's 

    [00:27:18] Hamish: individualized. Nah. I, I, I... As in here's a, here's a 10-meter run of walls, and it's got a window, drainage cavity, it's got WRV, it... Yeah, I don't, I don't have, like, a square meter rate for that. No. No. Every single project that we do, I use the Future Builder S labor estimating sheet. 

    [00:27:34] Jimmy: Right.

    [00:27:35] Hamish: And I literally go through all the different categories in there, and I have the plans up on one screen, and I've got the estimating s- sheet on the other. 

    [00:27:44] Matt: You've got three screens now. What's on the other one? 

    [00:27:46] Hamish: Oh, my laptop's over here. I do have three screens 

    [00:27:49] Matt: It's fancy. Even 

    [00:27:50] Hamish: tilted the other way 

    [00:27:50] Matt: around.

    [00:27:51] Hamish: So, so fancy. No, I haven't done that yet. 

    [00:27:53] Matt: I see, oh, cool. 

    [00:27:53] Hamish: Um, no, 'cause it's a curved screen and it doesn't- 

    [00:27:54] Matt: Oh, how's it with a curved screen? Yeah, it doesn't really do it. Sorry. Um 

    [00:27:58] Hamish: Jimmy's like, "Shut up." 

    [00:27:59] Matt: Shut up, [00:28:00] guys. I 

    [00:28:00] Hamish: love screens. An- answer, answer my question. Um, I, so I, I still do it. Um, I still do it on a, on a line-by-line kind of basis of every single plan that- Yeah

    [00:28:12] do different drawings that we get through- Mine- ... 'cause it's all custom homes ... 

    [00:28:14] Matt: mine's set up for ordering, so cavity close is measured at per linear meter of the external perimeter. Yeah. My membrane is per square meter divided by 50, which will give you pl- plus, uh, and then round up to the nearest roll. 

    [00:28:26] Hamish: But, but that's, that's material though.

    [00:28:27] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's not labor. But then labor, uh, yeah, I just work out what I think how long it's gonna take. 

    [00:28:32] Hamish: I'll do- I'll literally- 

    [00:28:33] Jimmy: Do you have, like, a lineal rate, though, 

    [00:28:35] Hamish: for- 

    [00:28:35] Matt: No, nothing. No. 

    [00:28:35] Hamish: Not one thing. Mine's all, mine's all done on labor days. 

    [00:28:38] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:28:38] Hamish: I'm like, I, I, in my, in my, my experience in past projects, that's taken us three labor days.

    [00:28:46] Yeah. So it's... And, and often I think about the number of people that are gonna be on site. So there's a difference between three labor days for one person- 

    [00:28:56] Jimmy: Mm ... 

    [00:28:56] Hamish: and one day for three people. [00:29:00] 

    [00:29:00] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I just do, like, 

    [00:29:02] Hamish: th- Be- because I, I... Yeah ... when we're doing a building wrap on a roof, I'll be like, "Right, you know what?

    [00:29:05] I reckon that section's gonna be one day for three people," but I don't think one person can get that done in three days. 

    [00:29:12] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:29:12] Matt: Oh, that would take you, like, two weeks, one person. 

    [00:29:13] Hamish: Yeah, but do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, so you just got to think about those things, like, when you take- Yeah, think about it, like, practically, 

    [00:29:18] Jimmy: I 

    [00:29:18] Hamish: guess.

    [00:29:18] When 

    [00:29:18] Jimmy: y- yeah. 

    [00:29:18] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:29:19] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. Like, what's the most effi- Like, and in some areas, four people is gonna be too much. 

    [00:29:24] Matt: There's a whole podcast, Hamish, for pre-construction and calculating labor on a job. That is, like, I don't even know where to start. Honestly, it's, like, one of the most common- 

    [00:29:34] Hamish: Yeah. You should do it.

    [00:29:34] I tell you what, my, me, me throwing the dart is getting better. 

    [00:29:37] Matt: Yeah, yeah. That's it. 

    [00:29:39] Jimmy: Yeah, because, like, for someone like me, let's say, building my first passive house, got literally no experience- Yeah ... besides from Building a, a standard house, it's like- Well, 

    [00:29:51] Matt: I think- It'd be upwards of 300, uh, uh, 3,005 and- 3,000

    [00:29:55] 3,500 labor hours. 

    [00:29:57] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:29:57] Matt: That's, I'd say upwards of that is what- Yeah ... you'll [00:30:00] be. 

    [00:30:00] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:30:00] Matt: So times that by- But, 

    [00:30:01] Hamish: and I guess it, that's a, that's a difficult assumption to make, 'cause so- some homes bigger than the other. But yeah, it's, it's in the thousands of hours- Yeah ... that you'd, you would need to allocate. 

    [00:30:12] Jimmy: Yeah.

    [00:30:12] And I guess like when, when, when both of you first started, did you find you had issues with that? 

    [00:30:18] Hamish: Oh, 

    [00:30:18] Matt: fuck yeah. 

    [00:30:18] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:30:19] Jimmy: Yeah. Like losing money or? 

    [00:30:20] Matt: Oh, yeah. 

    [00:30:21] Hamish: Yep. Yes. Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:30:22] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:30:23] Hamish: Like the, the- 

    [00:30:23] Jimmy: Be prepared to lose. 

    [00:30:25] Hamish: I, I actually think that, um, the last two years is where I've really tightened it up and dialled it in.

    [00:30:33] Jimmy: Hmm. 

    [00:30:33] Matt: Yeah, I 

    [00:30:33] Hamish: reckon, yeah. And, and it's actually switching over from, from how I'd normally use to estimate and track to WonderBuild. 

    [00:30:39] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:30:40] Hamish: I'd say, yeah. Are, are you on WonderBuild? 

    [00:30:41] Jimmy: Yes. 

    [00:30:41] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, WonderBuild- So I'd say you're probably upwards of like, I would just say on a pa- a, a standardized pa- a standard passive house that's maybe 180 square meters that's got some cladding on it that's carpentry based, you're about $200,000 roughly, plus margin, plus GST, is what you should be around the hours, kind of [00:31:00] roughly upwards of that.

    [00:31:01] I would say if you're kind of under that, you're probably missing something. 

    [00:31:04] Jimmy: Hmm. 

    [00:31:05] Matt: Is that right? What 

    [00:31:06] Jimmy: did you say? 200, 

    [00:31:06] Matt: uh- Uh, uh, to u- upwards of $200,000. Yeah, I agree. I, I wouldn't say... And if you, if you're actually under that, unless the house is tiny and you've got no carpentry cladding out, so like it's, or something like that, I would- And then, 

    [00:31:17] Hamish: and then if you think about that logically, right?

    [00:31:19] So 200,000, say if it's even 250,000, what does that equate to? That probably equates to an apprentice, and a carpenter, and another ca- and a, and a kind of a, a site lead on site for most of the year. 

    [00:31:34] Matt: Yeah, yeah. No, it's not. And- Think about this. It's, it's only about 29 hours, it's only about 29 weeks of c- of labor for the whole job.

    [00:31:43] If you have three- Yeah, so, 

    [00:31:44] Hamish: so, no, no, 

    [00:31:44] Matt: I- 

    [00:31:44] Hamish: Do you know what I mean? ... I, I agree with you, but you normally would have more than one job running. 

    [00:31:48] Matt: Yeah, no, no, but like, but when I'm, when you break it down really tiny and everyone's, "Oh, the job, you're on site for, uh, 14 months," there's only about 29 weeks of carpentry for three people- Yeah

    [00:31:57] full time there. 

    [00:31:57] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. So, so- Yeah ... 

    [00:31:59] Matt: so- 

    [00:31:59] Hamish: But, but, but [00:32:00] that, that crew is over the job for 12 months. 

    [00:32:02] Matt: Yeah, yeah, 

    [00:32:03] Hamish: yeah. They're, they're not on site for the whole time. No, 

    [00:32:04] Matt: no, 

    [00:32:04] Hamish: no, no, yeah. But that, but that's the kind of point I'm getting at. If you think about it, yeah, that would, uh, you know, in my past project...

    [00:32:10] And this is probably where- Asking somebody else ... um, asking specifically about, you know, what are the things to look out to when I'm quoting a passive house, I think you need to dial in just your estimating in general. 

    [00:32:23] Jimmy: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 

    [00:32:24] Hamish: Like, 'cause then you can really start to understand, well, a frame's gonna take me that- Intuitively, a building wrap's gonna take me X, Y and Z.

    [00:32:31] Yeah. I don't know. I just think you need to know your- 

    [00:32:34] Matt: Know your numbers, yeah ... carpentry is very undervalued per, like per hour, and productivity labor dollars spent on a site is one of the best value for money on a site. 

    [00:32:43] Hamish: Yep. What else you 

    [00:32:43] Matt: got? And it's, uh, undervalued. 

    [00:32:44] Hamish: What else you got? What else you got?

    [00:32:46] Jimmy: All right, so switching topics, um, who or what, um, has shaped your approach to building this, um, building the most? Uh, so mentors, courses, or [00:33:00] jobs that went wrong 

    [00:33:02] Hamish: So, so, so I'll say 

    [00:33:03] Matt: this again So like what, what is, um, like, whatever, what's the best, like what have... How have we learnt essentially? 

    [00:33:08] Jimmy: Yeah, I guess, yeah 

    [00:33:09] Matt: Or mentors and 

    [00:33:09] Jimmy: stuff What shapes you going forward, whether it's, you know, a mentor or- 

    [00:33:13] Matt: So I think we've got two-

    [00:33:14] something 

    [00:33:14] Jimmy: going right or something going wrong ... 

    [00:33:15] Matt: I think there's one that we both share. I think Cam Munro has been an incredible- Mm-hmm ... resource to both of us, who's on the podcast. I also think Drew from Passive Tech has been an absolute wealth of knowledge, especially early on, helping us through. 

    [00:33:26] Hamish: I think early on in my career it was definitely Sven.

    [00:33:29] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:33:29] Hamish: Definitely Sven. Yeah. And, and I think- Who's 

    [00:33:31] Jimmy: that for context? 

    [00:33:32] Hamish: Sven from Maxa Design. Yeah. Yep. So we do a, we do a lot, we do a lot of work with them. 

    [00:33:35] Jimmy: Yep. 

    [00:33:36] Hamish: And I'm not gonna, like, beat my own drum here. I kinda feel like me and Sven now trade ideas with each other on a pretty pla- even- Yeah ... playing surface.

    [00:33:44] Matt: We had to work it out. There was no, like, resource back when we started. Like, it was literally like I mess- that's how we met, I messaged him like, "Hey, how'd you do that window?" 

    [00:33:50] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:33:50] Matt: That was, like, so I'd say for me, Hamish was that person for me too. 

    [00:33:54] Hamish: Yeah. Well, it's time, same- Yeah ... same for you. But, but on different levels too.

    [00:33:57] Like, I, I look at what Matt's doing with his marketing and go, "All [00:34:00] right. I'm gonna tweak my marketing based off that stuff." So you're kinda getting bits and pieces from everyone, but, like, where you are now, you need someone like us, you know- Oh, yeah ... to, to- Yeah, 100% ... to, to really, you know, now you've got this amazing opportunity to ask all these questions- Yeah

    [00:34:14] where we can give you our responses. But for, for us now, like, we don't know everything. Like, just- 

    [00:34:19] Matt: We probably know very little, we just, we just think just because we're above everyone, we're just, we've just spent our 10,000 hours becoming an expert on it. 

    [00:34:27] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:34:27] Hamish: Five days ago, it would've been Thursday last week-

    [00:34:29] I called Sven, 'cause I, I was looking through a PHPP, and I knew that Sven, um, likes to have, like passive house criteria, for passive house classic, um, your house can't overheat more than 10%. 

    [00:34:41] Matt: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:34:42] Hamish: Right? Whereas in Australia, that doesn't quite work, and we've experienced that on our homes where our homes are heating up too much.

    [00:34:48] Mm. Yeah. Yeah. It's getting certified, and our clients are like, "Why is the house hot?" So in Australia, and Sven's was awesome at this. Like, I called him up and I go, "Dude, I've got this home that's sitting [00:35:00] at 7%, and I'm really, really worried about it." And he goes, "You should be. You need to get that down to 3%."

    [00:35:05] So this is the kind of stuff now, like we're kind of in those finer, finer- So is this 

    [00:35:08] Jimmy: in the design process side of it? Now I wanna know, 

    [00:35:10] Hamish: what, what is that? In, in, in the, in the p- in the, when you're going through- PHPP ... when you're going through a PHPP, anything low, an- anything below 10%, like that's the criteria that it needs to meet- Yeah, yeah

    [00:35:19] it needs to be equal to or below 10%. Sven's saying 3%, you, you, you should, you should be getting it down to 3%, and external shading should be on all homes, on the east and west, and then on the north. 

    [00:35:31] Jimmy: Right. Yeah. I'm just, I'm actually now interested to see what my overheating is. Can you expand on the, the, I guess the process of the PHPP and- 

    [00:35:40] Matt: How 

    [00:35:40] Jimmy: you find that 

    [00:35:41] Hamish: How long have I got?

    [00:35:42] You 

    [00:35:42] Matt: don't really need to know. D- I think have very good consultants around to help you. 

    [00:35:45] Hamish: So I agree with that to, like, probably 95% of that. But where I don't agree with that, I think you need to understand it. 'Cause as I was going through an estimate the other day, and I presented this cost to the client on [00:36:00] Friday, and I know that Carol listens to this, so she n- she knows this story.

    [00:36:05] I'm like, "You know what? Just before I submit this price," and I'm going through my tender document, "I am going to just refamiliarize myself with the PHPP, 'cause I know that this is sitting in PH low-energy home territory, and what are the risks on the project." 

    [00:36:19] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:36:19] Hamish: Uh, 'cause I noticed there was no external blinds.

    [00:36:22] So I'm looking at it, and I'm like, "Hang on." Okay. "Cam's, Cam's written here that we need to go triple glazing." I'm like, "Yep, we've got triple glazing. Cool. Now I know we're at 5.5%-" 

    [00:36:32] Matt: Yeah ... "

    [00:36:32] Hamish: risk of overheating." So I brought this up with the client and said, "Hey, here's all the information that I know. It's a small, compact home, two storey, and I know it potentially has a risk of overheating upset, particularly upstairs.

    [00:36:47] So we really need to think about external blinds here." So I'm basing m- I'm going back to the PHPP, looking at all the information there, and because I know how to [00:37:00] read this document, I can then pluck stuff out and then put it back to the client- Mm ... and, and designer in this way. 

    [00:37:04] Matt: Perfect. I think there needs to be, like, a, a PHPP course for builders.

    [00:37:08] Hamish: Yeah, understand the report. 

    [00:37:09] Matt: Yeah, how to understand the report. 

    [00:37:10] Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, like, what you're just saying is, like, obviously super valuable, but yeah. '

    [00:37:15] Hamish: Cause c- if you 

    [00:37:15] Jimmy: think about it- Every builder's not gonna know that ... if, if, if... 

    [00:37:18] Hamish: You think ab- And this is the real risk, and, and, and I'm talking from experience here of, of delivering a home where, that's overheating, and now we're trying to work out how to, you know, to manage that.

    [00:37:27] Whereas all the numbers were pointing in the right direction, and on this project, all the numbers are pointing in the right direction too, but I'm like, "Well, you know what, guys? I actually think that there's still a risk here." 

    [00:37:36] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:37:37] Hamish: Even though that we're well under, I still think there's a risk. Yeah, I think- And here's the reason why

    [00:37:40] Matt: I think knowing your heating demand is just a good number to know, 'cause you're at 14.5 or 15. You're like, "Okay, we're tight." But if you know you're nine, you're like, "Cool." That's all you need to know is, like, how far off are you under your 15. 

    [00:37:50] Hamish: C- Calling it, this one was eight. S- Smashing it. 

    [00:37:56] Matt: That's mine.

    [00:37:56] She's... No, I'm really- 

    [00:37:58] Jimmy: And you want it to be at three? 

    [00:37:59] Hamish: [00:38:00] No, 

    [00:38:00] Matt: cooling- Cooling, cooling is, cooling at my house is four, and frequency of our heating is nothing. 

    [00:38:04] Hamish: Oh, really? 

    [00:38:04] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:38:05] Hamish: Yeah, so we're talking- I don't have much waste ... there's all different kind of metrics- Right, right. 

    [00:38:07] Matt: Yeah ... that we're looking at. All we need to do is the overall spreadsheet, and then it's like then from that, if you understand that, then you can go into more depth.

    [00:38:12] But I think- 

    [00:38:12] Hamish: Yes. Do you know what? Maybe there is a whole episode on understanding PHPP. Yeah, I'm that saying- Yeah. 

    [00:38:18] Jimmy: Well, I feel like it's a topic that- Let's take their money. Let's, 

    [00:38:19] Matt: let's do a course ... 

    [00:38:20] Jimmy: doesn't get talked about too much. 

    [00:38:21] Hamish: Yeah. No, it doesn't. Yeah, understanding your PHPP. For builders. I like that.

    [00:38:25] Jimmy: Yeah, and, and as well as Boffi. It's coming soon. 

    [00:38:27] Hamish: Coming soon. They're- Do you guys- ... looking out for a course 

    [00:38:28] Matt: in 2027. 

    [00:38:30] Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, you could do the Mindful Builder. 

    [00:38:31] Hamish: How much would you pay for it? 

    [00:38:33] Jimmy: A couple bucks. Nah, I think that'd be very 

    [00:38:36] Hamish: valuable ... 

    [00:38:36] Jimmy: a 

    [00:38:36] Hamish: couple hundred, two, two, 200 bucks. There we go. Jimmy's getting a discount.

    [00:38:40] Jimmy: I get 

    [00:38:40] Hamish: the master builder discount. 50% discount when you sell it for four. 

    [00:38:43] Jimmy: Grant? 

    [00:38:44] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:38:45] Matt: Oh, I, I honestly, if we sold it for $500, like you would, uh, save yourself, uh- I 

    [00:38:49] Hamish: think even for... I think that the, the knowledge you can get out of really... Like, I, the PHPP for me- Yeah ... in pre-construction is an optimization tool.

    [00:38:57] Mm. It's optimizing cost and it's optimizing performance, [00:39:00] and it's finding that balance. Where's the sweet spot for the client? Yeah. Yeah, cool. That's what we're using it for. Um- 'Cause not all pr- not all projects, in my opinion, need to be Passive House. 

    [00:39:08] Matt: No. 

    [00:39:08] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. Well, exactly. Yeah. 

    [00:39:10] Matt: And you only know that until you know what you don't know, so I would say at the moment for you, every house needs to be Passive House until you have this- Until I know enough.

    [00:39:18] Yeah ... until you know where your levers are. 

    [00:39:20] Jimmy: Yep. 

    [00:39:20] Matt: I think you should start, then work backwards on that conversation. That should be across the board with everyone. Yep. 

    [00:39:25] Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, yeah, the goal is to build a Passive House, but... 

    [00:39:28] Matt: Oh, you... That's the, but that's the easy part. Like, you will get there. Mm. Like, that's not the concern.

    [00:39:32] It's the, the, the goal to me is like what, what's beyond the goal of building a Passive House? Because if I had the goal of that, I might as well just stop building. 

    [00:39:41] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:39:41] Jimmy: Yeah. Oh yeah, obviously it's a, it's a short-term- Yeah ... one-off goal. Yeah. But yeah, becoming- 

    [00:39:46] Hamish: I think, I think you need to get the runs on the board, for sure.

    [00:39:48] A reputable builder. But e- and even just for you, like personally, you wanna build a certified Passive House. 

    [00:39:52] Jimmy: Yeah. It's like, I guess it's more of a vanity thing. Very 

    [00:39:56] Matt: easy, 

    [00:39:57] Jimmy: honestly. Or an ego thing. I 

    [00:39:57] Hamish: think there's vanity, but then I think also once [00:40:00] you've done it or done it a few, you can then, I guess, triage decisions in pre-con.

    [00:40:04] Yeah. 'Cause if, if, if you're like, "It's gotta be a Passive House," well, maybe it doesn't have to be. Maybe we can still deliver a really good home that're gonna cost you 50 grand less. 

    [00:40:12] Jimmy: Mm. 

    [00:40:13] Hamish: And here's how it's gonna perform. 

    [00:40:15] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah, 100%, like when... I want June to just build healthy, high-performing homes. Yep.

    [00:40:21] Whether it's certified or not- 

    [00:40:22] Hamish: Yep ... 

    [00:40:23] Jimmy: is not the- 

    [00:40:24] Hamish: Maybe they just ... end of the world ... healthy, healthy high-performance homes, whether they're certified or not. Actually, that's very close to mine, so don't use that. 

    [00:40:31] Jimmy: What is it? 

    [00:40:31] Hamish: Beautiful, high-performing, energy efficient homes. 

    [00:40:34] Jimmy: Right. Right. Mine's, uh, architecturally designed, high-performance delivery.

    [00:40:39] Matt: Like that. 

    [00:40:39] Hamish: Yep. That's- 

    [00:40:40] Matt: I can't even remember what the fuck mine is. It's on my email. I should know, and I've gone completely blank. 

    [00:40:45] Hamish: Yeah, your email says, "I don't work Fridays." 

    [00:40:47] Matt: Yeah, leisure. 

    [00:40:47] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all people 

    [00:40:49] Matt: read. Uh, and I don't check my emails at the moment. Um, no, what is mine? I, I, I- What else you 

    [00:40:53] Hamish: got?

    [00:40:53] What about- 

    [00:40:53] Jimmy: Well, yeah, just on that, um, Woofy as well. Yep. I- Is that something that's involved in the PHPP, or is that- No ... external as [00:41:00] well? Separate. 

    [00:41:00] Matt: So when you need Woofies, you're doing something weird. 

    [00:41:02] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:41:03] Matt: That's what I'd say. If you're, if you had- In your case, this is not full advice. So- 

    [00:41:09] Jimmy: So a new build wouldn't 

    [00:41:10] Matt: be?

    [00:41:10] If you, no, well, if, if, uh, if you're doing 90 mil, uh, stud with external on the outside and intel on the inside of batten, sweet- In- ... in your climate ... 

    [00:41:19] Hamish: I'm gonna be really cautious in saying when you should get it. Like, I think it, it's, it's, uh, you might need it on every project or you might not. It depends. 

    [00:41:28] Matt: Or if you've got a, if you've got a project where it's like- 

    [00:41:30] Hamish: Does that answer 

    [00:41:30] Jimmy: your question?

    [00:41:30] Yeah, I mean, I just, if you don't know. 

    [00:41:32] Matt: No, well, for example, if you, like Sean has at the moment in Tassie, he's got a south wall that's brick and it gets no sun. Yeah, he, and he did a Woofie and it's never drying. 

    [00:41:41] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:41:42] Matt: So yeah, okay. If there's certain, again, it's kind of you, as you get a basis of knowledge, you kind of know where.

    [00:41:48] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:41:48] Matt: It should 

    [00:41:49] Hamish: be done. Alarm bells start to go off when you've got something a bit different. 

    [00:41:52] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:41:52] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:41:52] Matt: And you'll be like, "Hmm, this doesn't look right." And trust your gut kind of thing. 

    [00:41:56] Hamish: Yeah, de- definitely trust your gut. If, if you think there's a risk, like we, [00:42:00] what did we do one recently? We did one for a project we've got in pre-construction, and I said to the client, "Oh, I don't know about this."

    [00:42:07] So we got a Woofie. 

    [00:42:09] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:42:10] Hamish: And, and look, in this s- scenario it was okay. 'Cause we were trying to do, um, wood fiber, um, peel and stick membrane on, um, OSB and then frame. No internal air barrier. 

    [00:42:22] Matt: Right. 

    [00:42:22] Hamish: So we're like, I intuitively I'm like, "This is okay." No, seriously. But we're just like, "Hmm, let's just test 

    [00:42:28] Matt: it."

    [00:42:28] Yeah, we insulate in that space. 

    [00:42:32] Hamish: The cavity ... the 90 mil. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the 90 mil we were. 

    [00:42:34] Matt: Oh, that should be pretty fine. Actually, that's ultimately, that's actually arguably the best wall build up- Yeah ... you can have. 

    [00:42:38] Hamish: But do you know what? It was, questions came up from the designer. 

    [00:42:41] Matt: Okay. 

    [00:42:42] Hamish: So we're just like, "You know what?

    [00:42:43] Let's just make sure that we-" 

    [00:42:44] Matt: So we've had one, our retrofit in Altona, we've had numerous types of wall build ups that failed. I've got double brick and into some brick veneer. 

    [00:42:52] Jimmy: How do they fail? What, condensation 

    [00:42:53] Matt: or what? I- everything Moisture? Like literally moist- like yeah, you, you... [00:43:00] They just would fail because what insulation you put in was like we had closed cell, open cell insulation.

    [00:43:05] We then would put glass fiber and then we've ultimately set it on, and most people are going to hate it, um, where tape, we've set it on taped XPS. Uh, taped, ta- taped, um, PIR board- PIR 

    [00:43:16] Hamish: board ... 

    [00:43:17] Matt: across the whole house. Silver side on both sides. Silver foil- Mm ... on both side. Um, and- Yeah, yeah, 

    [00:43:22] Hamish: but you know what?

    [00:43:22] You're running a page, you're running a wolfie though. 

    [00:43:23] Matt: Yeah, 

    [00:43:23] Hamish: taped, 

    [00:43:24] Matt: taped. Yeah. So that was the only thing that was going to work on the project. 

    [00:43:28] Hamish: Okay. Yeah, but, but then, but then you're running a wolfie because you- you- Oh 

    [00:43:31] Matt: no, the wolfie gave us the answer because we kept playing. We had to keep looking and we had to look for the answer.

    [00:43:36] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:43:36] Matt: So that, so, so that's where I know that once I do it and would use foam, there's a pretty good reason behind it. Yeah. Um- 

    [00:43:43] Hamish: You've explored, you've exhausted all other opt- options. 

    [00:43:45] Matt: I exhausted everything. Yep. So- 

    [00:43:47] Jimmy: Yeah. So yeah, I guess there's never any- No ... guesswork. 

    [00:43:50] Matt: No. 

    [00:43:50] Jimmy: At all. 

    [00:43:51] Matt: Nah. Nah. The other option was wood fiber internally and, and, uh, li- like li- plaster, hard plaster, but the issue we had on that [00:44:00] was it was taking up a ton of space, but the bricks like those hollow core ones.

    [00:44:03] Hamish: Oh, yeah. 

    [00:44:04] Matt: And I did not trust- Yep ... that all that wood fiber just sitting. 

    [00:44:07] Hamish: Mm. Yep. 

    [00:44:07] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:44:08] Jimmy: Yeah, no 

    [00:44:08] Hamish: good. 

    [00:44:09] Matt: On, on foundations that have been there for yeah, I just didn't trust it, so. 

    [00:44:13] Jimmy: All right, next question. What's one skill you wish you had dev- uh, yeah, developed early in your career? 

    [00:44:19] Matt: Cost tracking 

    [00:44:21] Hamish: Humility. 

    [00:44:24] Jimmy: Yeah.

    [00:44:25] Matt: Yeah, I'd say, I'd, I- I was 

    [00:44:25] Hamish: fucking, I was a know-it-all. Yeah. Like, well, I'm talking way back. I was a know-it-all. 

    [00:44:30] Matt: Oh, you ... Okay. Um, learning to say no earlier on than I did. And I was good at it. 

    [00:44:39] Jimmy: I bet. How about, um, within the business, though? Okay. So cost tracking is one. 

    [00:44:44] Matt: Learning, yeah, learning to say no. 

    [00:44:45] Hamish: Uh, nah, for, for me, um, really understanding what my overheads were, and then back-cost, back-costing.

    [00:44:53] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:44:54] Hamish: Yeah, definitely. 

    [00:44:55] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:44:56] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really, I mean, you, you're in a really [00:45:00] amazingly- 

    [00:45:00] Matt: Do you mean back-costing to other trades that when they don't do things right? 

    [00:45:03] Hamish: No, no, just track- Or back tracking? Just past... Like, cost tracking. 

    [00:45:05] Matt: Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:45:06] Hamish: Cost tracking, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah.

    [00:45:06] Costing. You know, call it whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. But ac- actually, like, live data as projects are on the fly. 

    [00:45:11] Matt: And so, and, and it's as easy as it's ever been to do that right now. 

    [00:45:14] Hamish: Yeah. WonderBuild, it's- 

    [00:45:16] Jimmy: Yeah, so good ... and 

    [00:45:17] Matt: Claude, like, it's, it's literally- 

    [00:45:18] Hamish: Yeah ... you can't fuck it up. Yeah. 

    [00:45:20] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah, I just did the, um, short course with WonderOps.

    [00:45:23] Hamish: Oh, yeah. 

    [00:45:23] Jimmy: For Claude. 

    [00:45:24] Matt: Adam's done a great job with that. 

    [00:45:25] Jimmy: It's insane, yeah. Have you- Just really helping drives ... 

    [00:45:28] Hamish: have you, have you, have you got them all humming yet? 

    [00:45:31] Jimmy: Um- All the plugins? ... I've got, yeah, 90% of them. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm like, I, I'd see myself as tech savvy, so it's just a game changer. Yeah. You can start building your own skills and- 

    [00:45:42] Hamish: Yeah.

    [00:45:43] I'm, it's not me. Um, I'd love it to be me, but it's not me. Oh, fuck it. Yeah. You, you love it. So I'm, M- Matt and I are doing the two-day sit in. 

    [00:45:50] Jimmy: The lock-in? 

    [00:45:51] Hamish: Yeah, the 

    [00:45:51] Jimmy: lock-in. Yeah, yep. 

    [00:45:52] Hamish: Yeah. So when I get back from being away, we've got to sit- 

    [00:45:54] Jimmy: Yeah, I definitely thought about it. Like, I had previously- Sit with 

    [00:45:57] Hamish: you.

    [00:45:57] Yeah ... 

    [00:45:58] Jimmy: already built- 

    [00:45:59] Hamish: Beth's doing it ... [00:46:00] 

    [00:46:00] Jimmy: a lot of my back end in WonderBuild with, you know, AI previous to this. Yeah, 

    [00:46:06] Matt: same. 

    [00:46:06] Jimmy: So I was like, "Is it worth it?" Like, I'm sure- Definitely ... it's gonna be running better- Definitely worth it ... than what I have. 

    [00:46:10] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:46:10] Jimmy: But. 

    [00:46:11] Matt: I think- I just brought in a lot of combine my skill. I used their skill, combined what I had, and then re-fixed the skill 

    [00:46:15] Jimmy: up.

    [00:46:15] Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:46:16] Hamish: For, for me, it's about just having that, someone help me jump that first barrier. 

    [00:46:23] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:46:23] Hamish: Because I, I would be quite happy if AI didn't exist at... I'd be ra- I'd be wrapped. 

    [00:46:29] Jimmy: If it didn't exist? 

    [00:46:30] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. I'd be very happy if it didn't exist. But no, I, I, I know that I need to implement it in my business.

    [00:46:35] Um, it's a, it's a... I've never been a gamer. I've never liked computers. Mm. Like, it's, it's not, it doesn't come naturally to me. I get it when it's, when I apply myself, but I don't get excited. Yeah. 

    [00:46:45] Jimmy: I, I mean, you don't have to use it, but it's just another tool that is gonna probably 

    [00:46:49] Hamish: save you admin. I, I see... We use it.

    [00:46:52] Don't get me wrong, we, we use AI in our business. 

    [00:46:54] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:46:55] Hamish: Yeah. We, we, we use it a lot, but I'm not the one that's really driving the [00:47:00] plugins and the skills and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. It's my VAs. 

    [00:47:02] Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it can get pretty confusing, to be honest. Yeah. Especially when you start doing coding and stuff through your terminal.

    [00:47:07] Like, there's a lot. 

    [00:47:09] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:47:09] Jimmy: But, yeah. 

    [00:47:10] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:47:11] Jimmy: Okay, cool, cool. 

    [00:47:13] Hamish: I like answering questions 

    [00:47:15] Matt: So much easier. 

    [00:47:15] Jimmy: Yeah, flip the switch a bit. 

    [00:47:17] Hamish: At the end of the day, yeah, it's good. 

    [00:47:20] Jimmy: Okay, here's one, um- I thought that'd be 

    [00:47:21] Matt: spicier. 

    [00:47:22] Jimmy: You want some spicy ones? Go 

    [00:47:23] Matt: for it. 

    [00:47:24] Jimmy: We'll get there. What's the most surprising thing a guest has taught you, I guess, at the podcast?

    [00:47:31] Matt: Oh, I've got one. 

    [00:47:32] Hamish: Go. 

    [00:47:33] Matt: Uh, Dave Jennings. Uh, get good people on your podcast if you wanna know more, 'cause they'll come on for free, and you can prick their brain. 

    [00:47:39] Hamish: Oh, yeah. There you go. Um- That's a good hack, yeah. I mean, Ca- Cam, for me- Oh, yeah ... every time I get Cam Munro on. 

    [00:47:45] Jimmy: Mm. 

    [00:47:46] Hamish: Uh, do- actually, do you know the one that- 

    [00:47:48] Jimmy: I know he's got Passive Analytics.

    [00:47:49] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

    [00:47:49] Hamish: Have, yeah, yeah. Do you know one person that I'm always learning from is Brad from Sanford Bill? 

    [00:47:55] Matt: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

    [00:47:56] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:47:56] Hamish: Like, no matter- He's 

    [00:47:57] Jimmy: so good ... 

    [00:47:58] Hamish: no matter what topic we're on, [00:48:00] or what we're talking about, or even just how he sees things, I'm like, "Oh, yeah." 

    [00:48:05] Matt: I just love how he's just blunt.

    [00:48:07] It suits the way I operate. So blunt, 

    [00:48:09] Jimmy: so passionate. 

    [00:48:09] Matt: It just- He's so good ... it suits me. Like, that's how I talk. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but no, I think, uh, Dave's episode for me, when he's like, "Get people on you wanna learn from," I'm like, "Yeah, okay. I gotcha." Like, to me, that was like- Yeah ... we can get people on, we can actually sit here learning.

    [00:48:24] So whilst we think we're at a recording podcast all day, we can sit there speaking to someone, getting information. Like, okay, cool, I can take that away now. 

    [00:48:31] Hamish: Yep. Yeah. I mean- That's good ... and what's really nice for us, I know for me anyway, 'cause I listen to all of our episodes. Yeah. 

    [00:48:37] Matt: Thank 

    [00:48:38] Jimmy: you. Yeah. 

    [00:48:38] Hamish: We know that

    [00:48:38] and, and I really love listening back, 'cause it's great being in the conversation, but I get a lot more... Like, it's more... It's almost, like, reinforced when I get back and listen to it again. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Do 

    [00:48:50] Jimmy: you think 

    [00:48:50] Matt: sometimes, like, "I don't remember talking about that"? 

    [00:48:53] Jimmy: Yeah. Walk out of here 

    [00:48:54] Hamish: and- Sometimes

    [00:48:55] won't remember anything. I'm like, "When did that happen?" Especially when it's, like, the last episode- I'm 

    [00:48:58] Jimmy: like, I- ... of the six record. 

    [00:48:59] Hamish: Yeah, I'm not gonna remember [00:49:00] any of this episode. No, yeah. I did a, I did, I did nothing. 

    [00:49:01] Matt: Especially if it hasn't come out for, like, 10 weeks after. Yeah. You're like, "Oh, I've, I've forgot what we talked about."

    [00:49:06] Yeah. 

    [00:49:06] Hamish: Yeah. No, for sure. But we, we learn stuff from all of our guests. Like, all the conversations we have- 

    [00:49:11] Matt: Oh, there's not one that I'm like, like... I can't even... And I'd say it. I can't even think of one that I'm like, "Pff, wouldn't get them on again." 

    [00:49:19] Hamish: No, they've all been awesome. Yeah. Every one. That probably hasn't answered your question, but- 

    [00:49:22] Matt: Yeah.

    [00:49:23] Fair enough. No ... 

    [00:49:23] Hamish: I- I mean, it kind of roundabout, uh, roundabout way, it has. 

    [00:49:26] Jimmy: Yeah. No, it's good. Yeah. Any, uh... Yeah. There's always value in- 

    [00:49:29] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:49:30] Jimmy: whoever you're talking to. 

    [00:49:30] Hamish: Yeah, definitely. Okay. Cool, cool. 

    [00:49:34] Jimmy: Um, yeah, so what, uh, guests or topics would you love to cover in the future? 

    [00:49:40] Hamish: Yes, 

    [00:49:40] Matt: we kind of do. 

    [00:49:41] Jimmy: You've kind of done a lot of topics.

    [00:49:42] We kind of... Oh, 

    [00:49:43] Matt: yeah, we're only starting. Um, we kind of have, we've got our pre-construction series, 

    [00:49:48] Jimmy: which- Yeah, which by the way, like, those little series, like- 

    [00:49:50] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:49:51] Jimmy: great ideas. 

    [00:49:52] Matt: So they're gonna come out as courses. Yeah. We're supposed to say they're gonna be a course. Yeah. So we'll have a pre-construction course.

    [00:49:56] Yeah, 

    [00:49:56] Jimmy: are you doing a template or whatever? I'd 

    [00:49:57] Matt: literally just listen 

    [00:49:58] Jimmy: to one 

    [00:49:58] Matt: of them- Uh, we're, we're literally, we- we're [00:50:00] still working on what it looks like, but ultimately that will be a course. And then I think in the future we've got, um, yeah, we've got other ideas on how we can probably give more back for people to learn.

    [00:50:09] Yeah. Um, and ultimately this is a business for us too. Yeah. That we need money to come in so we can finally give more content. 

    [00:50:15] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:50:16] Matt: Like, the only, the more that we get from sponsorship, um, ads, all these things, we- we just put it all back in. It's not like we have- we do not make 

    [00:50:23] Hamish: a profit right now. No. You know what?

    [00:50:24] You know what? No, I wouldn't have thought so. The, the podcast has gone from something that's cost us north of 40 or 50 grand a year to something that's almost cost neutral now. 

    [00:50:31] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:50:31] Hamish: So- That's 

    [00:50:32] Jimmy: awesome. Yeah, I've seen how, how much it's grown. 

    [00:50:34] Hamish: It's... A- a- and it's really great. Like, we've got, um- That's 

    [00:50:36] Matt: not accounting our time either.

    [00:50:38] So the we- like, like if we were to put our hourly rate in, fuck me, we'd be behind. 

    [00:50:41] Jimmy: No, it's not. Yeah, I'm guessing you're not charging that. No. 

    [00:50:43] Hamish: No, we're never gonna. We're not, we're not back charging that, back charging it. But like we're... O- one of our big focuses, um, soon is YouTube. 

    [00:50:52] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:50:53] Hamish: So we really wanna start, uh, offering much greater value to YouTube and this stuff.

    [00:50:59] I don't know when this is [00:51:00] gonna come out. 

    [00:51:01] Jimmy: Or is it just Spotify or like where the podcasts are at the moment? 

    [00:51:04] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're on YouTube, but we really wanna focus on, um- 

    [00:51:08] Matt: Videos and installation 

    [00:51:10] Hamish: guides ... videos- Longer form kind of thing. Yeah ... yeah, a lot longer form stuff. And yeah, we, we do have some news coming up soon around some pretty exciting changes.

    [00:51:18] Matt: The podcast is expanding, we can say that. 

    [00:51:20] Hamish: Yeah, the podcast is expanding. There's gonna be more products that's gonna be out there. There's gonna be more things- There's gonna be a second- 

    [00:51:25] Matt: More- 

    [00:51:25] Hamish: There's gonna be 

    [00:51:26] Matt: a second podcast, 

    [00:51:26] Hamish: so we'll drop that there. There's gonna be more things, there's gonna be more things to consume.

    [00:51:29] Jimmy: That's gonna be exclusive. 

    [00:51:30] Hamish: Under the Mindful Builder Network banner. Yeah. So we've got some pretty cool things coming up, which we, we think is gonna be valuable to you. Yeah. 

    [00:51:39] Matt: And we wanna know what... And if you're listening, like message us on Instagram, send us a m- email about like what you'd want to see.

    [00:51:45] Mm. Like, don't be afraid to email 

    [00:51:47] Hamish: us. What do you want to know about? Yeah. I mean, these, these ones are really good because, like, when you're asking us questions, because we're only thinking about, you know, what we think people want to listen to. 

    [00:51:56] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:51:57] Hamish: So when, you know... And remember when we had Damian on, and [00:52:00] he did that, we did over two, two episodes.

    [00:52:01] Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was one of our better performing ones- Yeah ... because he was just like hammering us 

    [00:52:05] Matt: with- The, the episodes where Joel asked us, Venz interviewed us, they're our best, they're our best performing. So- Yeah ... I think that there's definitely a lot of that will happen, I think. Uh, just stay tuned for that.

    [00:52:15] Um, there might even, by the time this one comes out, there might, it might be somewhat live, like there might be more information, but- There's 

    [00:52:21] Hamish: pr- the... In fact, I, I would, I would dare say that it is- 

    [00:52:23] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:52:24] Hamish: by then. 

    [00:52:24] Jimmy: Yeah. '

    [00:52:24] Hamish: Cause this is probably gonna come out early in the year 

    [00:52:26] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:52:27] Jimmy: Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people that are in my position that have similar questions.

    [00:52:32] And I wanna pick your guys' brain, like two leaders in this, in this space. All, all I can 

    [00:52:36] Hamish: say is- We don't wanna give away too much 'cause- Yeah, we're not gonna give away too much, but, but what is happening is gonna be very well received. 

    [00:52:41] Jimmy: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

    [00:52:43] Hamish: I think anyway. Anyway, I'm excited by it. Keep 

    [00:52:44] Jimmy: everyone on their toes.

    [00:52:45] Hamish: I'm excited by it. 

    [00:52:47] Jimmy: Okay, cool. Well, what do we got? Uh, so for both of you, where do you want your businesses to be in five years? 

    [00:52:56] Hamish: That's a good question. So I'm 44, and I [00:53:00] always thought to myself, by the time I'm 50, I wanna have choices of what I do. 

    [00:53:04] Jimmy: Mm. 

    [00:53:04] Hamish: Like, I wanna have opportunities and options. Like, I don't wanna be...

    [00:53:08] Like, I've got three kids. Junie's just turned one. She's one, 14 months. Like, you know, when I'm 53 or 54, she's gonna be 10. 

    [00:53:17] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:53:17] Hamish: You know, there's still so much of her life that I wanna be a part of, you know, and active and present, and I wanna have choices. So I'd like to think that I could build my business to a point where it's pretty autonomous in the next few years, where I can...

    [00:53:32] You know, I still wanna be really part of my business. I feel like I add a lot of value to my business. Yeah. But I'd really love it to be the point where I've got some really amazingly key people that can keep driving it forward. 

    [00:53:42] Matt: I'm, I'm the same. I just wanna have my role within the business, and that's my role, and then I can look at other ways of expanding the business or growing this.

    [00:53:49] Yeah. I think that ultimately that, like, I'd like to probably double turnover where I'm at right now- Yeah ... and grow it a little, a little bit, and then take on a lot more work, and, um, but- I- ... expand out a little bit. But I'm [00:54:00] younger. I'm also 10 years younger than you. 

    [00:54:01] Hamish: Yeah. And 

    [00:54:02] Matt: I'd- I'd like to do that ... 

    [00:54:02] Hamish: I'd like to think that, um, there's vertical integration opportunities as well, which- Yeah

    [00:54:07] we're, you know, we're currently building a barn at my, my joint. It's gonna be- Yeah, I've seen that ... Sanctum Homes HQ. And I keep saying to my wife, I'm like, "I'm really excited about the business opportunities that come out of this." And she's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "Well, I've got all this space that I can do shit in."

    [00:54:22] Yeah. And she's like, "Oh, fuck." 

    [00:54:23] Matt: There's probably stuff that I'm keen, yeah, I'm keen to just see... I, I just wanna dial in where I'm at, but also it's the, I shouldn't say the freedom, it's the, um, ability to have my role set. It's a job description that I can continue doing what I want to do within the business.

    [00:54:38] And that, that could change over time. Yeah. Like, at the moment, I'm doing all my estimations, and that might be a point where I dialled in and I might go focus on something else, and I kind of wanna be project-based. 

    [00:54:46] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:54:47] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah, one thing I always say to my partners, you know, I'm gonna, you know, scale the business and grow, and I'm gonna have more f- freedom, which is essentially the lifestyle we want.

    [00:54:56] But sometimes I, am I gonna have the 

    [00:54:59] Matt: freedom? 10... I'd say [00:55:00] now it's 10 to 12 years away straight off. 

    [00:55:01] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:55:02] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:55:02] Hamish: But, but, but also you've got a choice though, I think. Yeah. Like, you, you, if you just wanted to do two or three projects a year, and that is enough for you to live a life that you wanna live- 

    [00:55:12] Jimmy: Mm

    [00:55:13] Hamish: then that's fine. 

    [00:55:14] Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:55:14] Hamish: But the, the real reality for me, if I'm just being honest, is I've got this property in Moranbah, it's a couple of acres, and I wanna build a barn, I wanna put a pool in for my kids, and I want us to live in a really nice home. 

    [00:55:28] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:55:28] Hamish: And all of that costs money. 

    [00:55:30] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:55:30] Hamish: Yeah. So I need to earn money to do that, and that's my motivation.

    [00:55:34] Like, I'm, I'm... I don't have any investment property or anything like that. That really doesn't interest me. Like, I know where I wanna spend my money, and it's on this property. 

    [00:55:43] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:55:43] Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I would be similar for sure. For sure. 

    [00:55:47] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:55:48] Jimmy: What's, um, a favorite project from either of you? 

    [00:55:51] Matt: My own house. 

    [00:55:52] Jimmy: No, you gotta say Hamish's- Oh

    [00:55:54] or vice versa. Oh, 

    [00:55:54] Matt: that's hard. Oh. I don't even... Oh, gee, it's hard because I don't know your projects that well. [00:56:00] 

    [00:56:00] Hamish: Oh, I know. Um, for me, it's the Rifle. I know. 

    [00:56:02] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:56:03] Hamish: Rifle rain- Ah ... Rifle Range retrofit. Because I think that- Oh ... that right, that right there was, um, this really interesting intellectual project that Matt kind of shared all the questions along the way with us, and I happened to know the clients as well- Mm-hmm

    [00:56:18] because- I 

    [00:56:18] Matt: got the job from Hamish. He just passed it on. 

    [00:56:20] Hamish: Right. Yeah, I mean, but ironically- I'm 

    [00:56:22] Jimmy: happy to take some if you're handballing them. 

    [00:56:24] Hamish: But ironically, from another job, because I've got property elsewhere, I'm like, "That's too far for me. Call Matt." Right. And they're like, "Oh, we've gone a bit cold on that.

    [00:56:32] We're gonna do this one." 

    [00:56:33] Matt: Your 

    [00:56:33] Jimmy: hempcrete house. I didn't even 

    [00:56:34] Matt: think about that. Like those are just... That hasn't been done. I like stuff that's new and hasn't been done. Yeah. So that's my favorite. 

    [00:56:39] Hamish: Yep. Do you know, for me, the hempcrete house was up there for a long time, but you know, one of my per- Alasdair Knox

    [00:56:45] my per- my personal favorite one that we've just done is an Alasdair Knox retrofit- 

    [00:56:49] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:56:49] Jimmy: Which- Yeah, that was an awesome build ... 

    [00:56:51] Hamish: which I'm just like, I couldn't give that project justice without the knowledge that I've got about [00:57:00] high-performance homes. 

    [00:57:00] Jimmy: Yeah. 

    [00:57:01] Hamish: Like, I couldn't have done what I did there, even though it's not a passive house, if I didn't have seven years experience- Mm

    [00:57:06] with building high-performance homes, and now I'm really excited, not letting the cat out of the bag too much. We're actually targeting these homes now, 'cause I wanna just keep doing them. 

    [00:57:15] Jimmy: Right. 

    [00:57:15] Hamish: Right. Because I love the architecture. I love the aesthetics. What 

    [00:57:17] Matt: specifically, Alasdair Knox 

    [00:57:19] Hamish: or- Just Alasdair Knox.

    [00:57:19] Yeah, there's 1,000 of them. 

    [00:57:20] Jimmy: Is there? Yeah. Yeah, 

    [00:57:21] Hamish: yeah. 

    [00:57:22] Jimmy: Yeah, they're, they're, they're awesome. Yeah. They're timeless, aren't they? 

    [00:57:24] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:57:24] Matt: Alasdair Whitehome. 

    [00:57:26] Hamish: Oh, yeah. But do you know what? Like his son is called Ha- his name is Hamish as well. 

    [00:57:30] Matt: So Hamish Whitehome. Yeah. Uh, Jimmy, thank you for coming on. If people in the Northern Ri- Rivers wanna get on to you, junebuilding.com?

    [00:57:40] Jimmy: Yep. June- Junebuilding.com.au Social 

    [00:57:43] Matt: media 

    [00:57:43] Jimmy: Um, yeah, Instagram is june.building. 

    [00:57:45] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:57:46] Hamish: And can I just say, if you are a homeowner, and you are in the Northern Rivers or in Byron or in Southern Queensland, and you're looking to build a high performance or passive house, guys like Jimmy who have like said, "Do you know what?

    [00:57:58] These are the homes that we wanna build," [00:58:00] and they're not doing it just for another project, are the people that you wanna get on board for your homes. So, you know, if you are out there, and you wanna get in contact with Jimmy- Good ... if he doesn't know the answer, then he can call me or Matt. 

    [00:58:11] Jimmy: Yep. You heard the man.

    [00:58:13] I'm 

    [00:58:13] Hamish: game. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. Cheers, 

    [00:58:14] Jimmy: man. No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. 

    [00:58:15] Hamish: Thank you.

Matthew Carland
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