The Hidden Danger in Every Old House
“Right now, we are building the retrofit projects of the future.”
Let’s stop tip-toeing around the reality of the Australian housing market. We are throwing up volume-built boxes and high-density apartments that are practically end-of-life before they’ve even seen their first winter. We sat down with Linden Thorley, architect, Passive House designer, and chair of the Australian Passive House Association Retrofit Committee.
Linden isn't your typical architect rocking a pretentious turtleneck skivvy. His focus is on crafting resilient, healthy buildings using the Passive House Planning Package (PHPP) as a predictive tool rather than a playground for data nerds. After his own home was completely lost in a neighbouring fire, he went down the rabbit hole of building a new Passive House from scratch, putting himself through a hands-on masterclass in what it actually takes to deliver a high-performance envelope on site.
The Retrofit Revolution: You Can't Just Knock Them All Down
The conversation around building better in Australia usually turns into a lazy joke: "Just knock it down and start fresh." But when you look at the raw statistics, that argument completely collapses. There are 9.5 million existing houses in Australia, the vast majority of which were built entirely pre-energy efficiency provisions. We cannot build new homes fast enough to house the population, let alone cover the deficit.
The single biggest opportunity for designers, builders, and chippies over the next ten years isn't new custom builds, it’s retrofits. In fact, retrofits currently make up at least 80% of our direct project inquiries. But a true retrofit is vastly different from a simple aesthetic cosmetic renovation. It’s about radically altering the thermal performance, moisture management, and airflow of an existing fabric.
You can approach it two ways. You can strip the interior down to its bones and build a brand-new building inside the old shell, or you can perform an over-wrap on the exterior if you have the boundary space. But here is the critical catch: retrofitting is arguably the most dangerous type of construction because you have zero clue what you're getting into until the structure is ripped apart. Blocked weep holes, unrendered brickwork behind window reveals, mortar bridging the cavity - the site risks are massive.
Airtightness and Expectation Management: Scraping In Is Still Winning
When you step out of a predictable new build and into an EnerPHit or standard retrofit project, your target for airtightness changes from 0.6 air changes per hour (ACH) down to 1.0 ACH. If you have a continuous line of Pro Clima INTELLO running straight through a frame, hitting under 0.6 is easy. But if you're working with an old three-story walk-up or a double-brick terrace house, you are fighting a legacy fabric that was never intended to hold air.
As an architect managing these projects, early expectation setting with clients and builders is everything. Until that blower door test registers under 1.0 ACH, it is not a Passive House. But if you finish the project and hit an 8.0 or a 12.0 ACH down from an initial, unmeasurable 25+ ACH, that is not a failure.
If you applied all the core Passive House fundamentals - thermal-bridge-free details, high-performance windows, localised cavity fill, and a centralised Mechanical Ventilation with Heat Recovery (MVHR) system, you still have an incredibly capable, healthy, and durable building. Quantitatively, the energy difference between a certified 1.0 ACH house and an optimised 8.0 ACH home might literally equal the output of a single solar panel on the roof. It’s still an incredible building; it's just not a certified Passive House, and clients need to understand that value.
The Labour Crisis and the Battle Against Bureaucracy
Labour costs are driving the building industry to a breaking point. Retrofits are incredibly labour-intensive. Unlike standard custom builds where you can get away with standard pricing, a high-performance retrofit requires a meticulous amount of site hours. When you break down the numbers, a standard man-day on an Australian site costs anywhere from $600 to $800. By the time a builder accounts for WorkCover, payroll tax, QA systems, insurances, and a realistic profit margin to back up a long-term structural warranty, the budget stretches tight.
Instead of helping us solve the affordability puzzle, we are actively fighting outdated bureaucracy. Council planners and heritage advisors are consistently holding back energy efficiency standards. Planners will lose their minds over a 100mm height variance required to install above-sheathing roof ventilation on a heritage terrace house, simply telling you, "It's good enough for everyone else, why isn't it good enough for you?"
To survive this landscape, builders and architects must pull down the walls of isolation. We need an Early Contractor Involvement (ECI) framework where the builder is paid to be in the room during design, telling the architect exactly where their detailing is going to blow out site labour. We don't know everything, and sitting in an architectural ivory tower pretending site delivery isn't our problem is a recipe for a broken project.
The wave of the future isn't about chasing infinite square footage or building massive 300-square-meter homes just to satisfy a bank’s outdated risk profile. True sustainability is about understanding the concept of "enough" and maximising the performance of the space we already have.
If you're a builder or a designer looking to lead the market over the next decade, stop treating retrofits like a standard extension. Shift your contracts to use provisional sums for airtightness layers, run your thermal modelling early, and collaborate before a single hammer is swung on site. The market is moving fast.
You can keep building to the shittest code allowable by law, or you can step up, learn the science, and start fixing the millions of homes that actually need our help.
LINKS:
Connect with Linden Thorley:
Passive House Association Retrofit Committee: Look out for the upcoming Retrofit Month initiatives and playbooks.
Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima
MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt
CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Matt: We're filming at the real headquarters of Pro Climber, not our mobile Pro Climber Studios, um- In Sydney ... we've got Gus in the background here, you can't see on the camera doing some filming. Um, we're in Sydney, this is fun. Sydney's humid.
[00:00:15] Hamish: I took it up at 4:30 this morning, it sucked It's not a
[00:00:21] Matt: bad time of the morning
[00:00:22] Hamish: No, I couldn't sleep last night.
[00:00:23] Yeah. I had a terrible sleep last night. I did. So I lo- I loaded up on creatine. I
[00:00:27] Matt: can't remember. I forgot my creatine tablets.
[00:00:28] Hamish: Loaded up on
[00:00:29] Matt: creatine.
[00:00:29] Hamish: I've watched too many
[00:00:29] Matt: docos.
[00:00:31] Hamish: Oh, geez, I go on a ramble. And I had a good 15 grams this morning. I'm feeling great. Uh, if there's anyone out there who wants to sponsor the podcast who's a creatine supplier-
[00:00:38] then by all means, hit us up. Bulk Nutrients, I'm looking at you. Um- We, uh, have actually been chatting with Lyndon, uh, Thorley for a couple of years now and saying that we would like to get him on the podcast, and we have had opportunities to record onl- online. However, we feel that in-person is the best way to do it.
[00:00:58] So Lyndon, thanks for [00:01:00] joining us today.
[00:01:00] Linden: Well, thank you for having me, and yeah, very nice to be, be part of the podcast.
[00:01:05] Matt: So who are you?
[00:01:06] Hamish: Yeah. And why do architects hate builders?
[00:01:10] Matt: And how, um... Yeah. I was... Wait. Is this the first architect that hasn't got the turtleneck sweater going on? It's too hot. It's too hot in Sydney.
[00:01:16] They still have it, and they're rolled over. It's... Their little skivvy on. And they're like... I know. Sorry, architects.
[00:01:22] Linden: Uh, look- I'm joking ... fashion-wise, I'm well and truly a dad. We don't, don't really go spend our time crafting our clothes in quite the way we try and craft our buildings.
[00:01:32] Hamish: Oh, good call.
[00:01:33] Linden: Um, but, um, yeah, look, I'm an architect, um, Passive House designer.
[00:01:39] Um, I have a practice in Sydney, which is primarily focused on single residential dwellings. A lot of it is retrofit. Um, we are very lucky that the majority of our projects now, uh, people come to us wanting some form of energy efficiency and [00:02:00] building health as a key criteria of their project, and a lot of that is Passive House or somewhere in the territory of it.
[00:02:08] So all projects are modeled using the PHPP. We use that to inform our design decisions, um, and, uh, sort of optimize, optimize a building to suit. Um, my other hat that I wear is, um, chair of the Australian Passive House Association Retrofit Committee. Um, and that's a group of architects, designers, builders, and consultants, um, that are national, and our job is to work together to help, I think, collate and share information about retrofit.
[00:02:50] Uh, so our current projects are working towards a Passive House Association Retrofit Month, um, in the next few months. And [00:03:00] also, we've been working on a retrofit guide or playbook, um, which is primarily targeted at- Let's say stakeholder clients and policymakers. So we, we're not trying to explain how to do a complete retrofit.
[00:03:20] Um, what we're trying to do is, is share the benefits of it, what's possible, and key risks, and why we think about it in the Australian context. Um, and that's intended to help build a base of clients that come asking for a retrofit project that has measurable outcomes and performance, and ideally in time starts to lead towards funding that might, might target that measurable improvement.
[00:03:56] And it's a key point of difference to [00:04:00] a more simple retrofit process where you may not have some measured outcome.
[00:04:03] Matt: Do you only do retrofits?
[00:04:05] Linden: No, we do, do new build as well. Um, so yeah- Okay ... it's, it's a mix of projects for us.
[00:04:12] Hamish: How long-- You said before that, um, most of your clients now are coming to you for a particular solution, and I know that Matt and I, I would say 100% of the clients that come to us come for the same thing.
[00:04:23] How long did that take?
[00:04:25] Matt: Good question, Hay.
[00:04:27] Linden: Yeah, good question. Um, it's, uh- It's a little bit of a slow start. Um, I was very lucky that my first Passive House project was my own house-
[00:04:37] Hamish: I was gonna get to that bit ... and we used that- Yeah, and I'd love to hear about that one
[00:04:40] Linden: too.
[00:04:40] Hamish: Yeah
[00:04:40] Linden: Yeah We sorta used that as a way to share in a way that we couldn't share someone else's house, and that, that grew to people knowing who we were.
[00:04:50] Hamish: Yep
[00:04:50] Linden: And then we've also been lucky enough to have opportunities to speak and show projects and, and that's-
[00:04:55] Matt: Is it luck? Because I feel like you've put yourself out there to do it, and I, [00:05:00] I know you've gotta be in the right place at the time. Oh, you've created the opportunity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:05:02] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:05:03] Linden: Yeah, look-
[00:05:04] Matt: And that's why I say I don't think you're lu- I don't think you're lucky.
[00:05:06] I think that you just made the right decision as a move to head down that way
[00:05:11] Linden: We, yeah, we- look, we were lucky, but it was also, it, it, it is about being open, um, similar to the way you guys have been, um, in sharing how we go about projects, why we think it's important- Yeah ... bringing people along. Um, trying to step away from talking about numbers a little bit, and- Yeah
[00:05:30] talk about-
[00:05:30] Hamish: Numbers are boring ...
[00:05:31] Linden: about outcome. Outcome,
[00:05:32] Hamish: outcome's
[00:05:33] Matt: better. Recognition is- Yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest, um, hurdles that we face when we talk about Passive House is people wanna dive into the numbers too much, and it's like, I've, we were just chatting with Gus, the communications manager at Pro Clima.
[00:05:45] He's like how, like talking about how do you tell the architect you wanna put in Pro Clima into sort of the Passive House. I'm like, "Just don't tell them. Don't talk about it. Just, we're building a health- Just specify it ... we're just doing- Just specify it ... a healthy building, and this is part of the process, and this is how...
[00:05:59] Like, if we want a [00:06:00] healthy building, this is what you need to do to get there.
[00:06:03] Linden: Absolutely. Um, I think one of those key things about Passive House is that it's, it is a design and material agnostic standard. Like, it's, it's a- If you wanna keep your existing building exactly the way it is and try and lever it into being a Passive House, then it's probably possible, 'cause all it is is a calculation, and it's about crunching numbers and adding enough thermal resistance and enough shade to make it work.
[00:06:32] Um-
[00:06:32] Hamish: Or, or opening enough, enough to the northern light to let s- yeah, all, all of that. Yeah.
[00:06:36] Linden: That's right. But it's, um, yeah, i- if you wanna do it in a optimized way and a cost-effective way that is really focused on that healthy, comfortable home outcome, then it's actually about using those numbers to inform things along the side and make decisions as you're designing.
[00:06:57] So I, I love the fact that the PHPP, [00:07:00] as a architect's or designer's tool, is incredibly powerful without needing to become the ultimate nerd.
[00:07:08] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:07:09] Matt: So I wanna head more down the retrofit.
[00:07:11] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:07:11] Matt: Have you got a question before we go?
[00:07:12] Hamish: Yeah, I was just gonna say, um, I don't wanna poke the bear too much here, but I'll take a leaf- Okay, Matt
[00:07:18] I'll take a leaf out of Matt's book. Given the challenges around meeting Passive House on a existing building, 'cause there are challenges- Mm ... um, and I know you're part of this committee that are advocating for, um, Passive House retrofits, there's some very explicit characteristics and criteria around calling a Passive House a Passive House and not a Passive House.
[00:07:44] Are you in, in, in your committee still advocating for better buildings that don't have to be Passive House? 'Cause I'd argue that-
[00:07:51] Matt: Are you calling EnerPHit not a Passive House? Just to clarify. Well, no,
[00:07:53] Hamish: no, no, EnerPHit's a Passive House. Yeah. 'Cause, yeah, yeah, we'll do that ... but, but, like, airtightness is a real thing, and I wanna touch on that for a sec 'cause you've got hands-on [00:08:00] experience with that.
[00:08:01] But, you know, I, in my opinion, we can still get to a house that's not reaching EnerPHit and is still a good house.
[00:08:09] Linden: Absolutely. Um, I think- When I've got my retrofit committee hat on, I need to be mindful that the association's focus and mission, um, is-
[00:08:27] Hamish: More, more Passive
[00:08:27] Linden: houses, more certified Passive houses
[00:08:28] is, is certified Passive House. Yeah.
[00:08:29] Matt: It's not, it's not, yeah, the Passive House Association isn't the- Yeah ... Almost Passive House Association. Which, which
[00:08:33] Hamish: I agree with, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I,
[00:08:34] Matt: I
[00:08:34] Linden: agree with it. Absolutely. Um, so we, we want to have that focus. The, the benefit of the Passive House standard is that it's third party certification- Yes
[00:08:42] on that everything's been done correctly and properly, and that you have attained that level of project. So-
[00:08:48] Matt: And is that a project more relevant that needs to be checked over than a retrofit, 'cause they're arguably the most dangerous?
[00:08:55] Linden: Well, this is, this is where things are, uh, when we move into the retrofit space, [00:09:00] the key differences are that from an air tightness point of view, we're no longer chasing .6, we're chasing 1, which is also the fallback position for low energy certification.
[00:09:09] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:09:10] Linden: The other thing about a retrofit is that you can do it a few different ways. You can, you can pretty much obliterate the existing building, or slip a brand new building inside an existing building, and you can relatively easily get really good air tightness.
[00:09:28] Hamish: If- Easy, you say?
[00:09:30] Linden: Relatively easy.
[00:09:31] Hamish: Did you hear that, Cam?
[00:09:33] Linden: Um, now- When we start to try- It's not ... and wrap it from the outside, or we try and keep a large majority of the existing building fabric- Yeah ... and, and we're calculating with the intention of just scraping in and meeting the standard-
[00:09:48] Hamish: Yeah And when, and when we say we're just scraping in, it's still fucking good.
[00:09:53] Linden: That's right.
[00:09:53] Hamish: 0.001% of buildings- If you scrape in, it's incredible ...
[00:09:56] Linden: stop. It is, but it's, it's, uh, you know, [00:10:00] we are trying to minimize the amount of change to the original building fabric, and that building fabric was never intended to be the criteria that Passive House is. So, from a early stage expectation setting with clients, um, and everybody involved with the project, as an architect approaching a retrofit project, I need to be very careful to make everyone understand that until one air change an hour has been achieved on site, or less, it's not a Passive House, and it's not going to be.
[00:10:38] Matt: Pat, no, airtightness is... I, oh, can I say this? It... You can. No, how so? You can say it. I, I know.
[00:10:47] Hamish: And you probably will.
[00:10:49] Matt: Yeah. I'm trying to work out how to be clear about what I'm about to say. Achieving airtightness is so easy. If you get INTELLO, there's real no reason for not getting... If you, if you're [00:11:00] using INTELLO on a project, you should be able to get under 0.6, not 0.1, or under one, sorry.
[00:11:04] I ac- Absolutely ... I
[00:11:05] Linden: actually think it's super easy ... that, that is a continuous membrane all the way through- It's so easy ... the new building envelope. Yeah,
[00:11:10] Matt: yeah, yeah.
[00:11:11] Linden: Um- So,
[00:11:11] Matt: yeah ...
[00:11:11] Linden: if we're trying to, if we're gonna peak a three-story walk-up block of flats, and we're gonna rely on the existing render, um, and concrete slabs as our- Yeah
[00:11:22] our barrier, and we're gonna put new windows into that-
[00:11:26] Matt: Yeah, you're not gonna get- ...
[00:11:27] Linden: then we have, we, until we, until we have a substantial amount of work done and a substantial amount of money spent, we're not totally going to know what the air change will be. Um, there's a very good chance that we're gonna hit exactly what we planned to or better, but, you know, we don't know what service penetrations there are already through the cavity.
[00:11:48] We don't know, um, what's happened to this building in the past. We've got unrendered purpins of bricks around window reveals and door reveals- Yeah ... that we may or may not have access [00:12:00] to. So, those things could all mean that we don't quite hit the air changes an hour. And, um, it's then a financial decision about whether or not, in the middle of the project, we're gonna sit there and chase that, or whether we're going to draw back, and we're gonna reassess where we got to, reassess our modeling-
[00:12:19] Hamish: Yep
[00:12:19] Linden: and decide whether or not we've got a good building. Now, as an architect, I would argue that all of the work that we've done in the lead-up to getting to this point in modeling the building, using all of the Passive House fundamentals of touching all of those points that we're supposed to, making sure that we've got thermal fridge, ridge-free design, airtight, good windows, ventilation, um, so- we've still got a really capable building that is well above code and There is value in that.
[00:12:57] And when we sit there and try and quantify that [00:13:00] value, energy-wise, we might only be talking about the difference of one solar panel on the roof in order to offset the difference in energy consumption- Yeah ... because we're already in a really, really tight band. Um, but it- the fundamental that clients have to understand, and all of us involved in making that project happen, particularly the builder who really is seen as the one who's got to deliver that air change, is that it- if we don't quite get there, that's not actually a terrible outcome.
[00:13:34] It's still a good building. It's just not a Passivhaus.
[00:13:36] Hamish: Yeah. I love that approach, and I think there's a lot to learn from that approach. I've got two comments. One comment is, how are you contracting on this? Is this a builder, like, committing to an air change? Or is this a- Mm ... builder committing to, "We're gonna do our absolute best given the scenario that we're given"?
[00:13:58] 'Cause it's really- Air tightness is like a
[00:13:59] Matt: [00:14:00] provisional sum.
[00:14:00] Hamish: Yeah. I, I... That's what I'm getting at. Like- Mm ... 'cause w- we- we're talking at the moment with a project where there is questionable details. There's i- like, an interesting floor structure, which we can get to underneath, but trying to manage air tightness there is challenging.
[00:14:14] And I've said to the client, "I actually feel that w- we should do a provisional sum for air tightness, and we can then make the call." And and I know, I-
[00:14:25] Matt: Otherwise, we just r- risk-
[00:14:27] Hamish: Say, say Matt and I saying this to you, y- you would probably have confidence in knowing that we're gonna do the right thing, 'cause we've done this a lot, and we've got a reputation to do it.
[00:14:35] But if it's Joe Blow off the, off the street, I can understand from an architect's and a client's point of view, there is some concerns there if they're just gonna be like, "Well, it's all Ken, no responsibility." So, how are you managing that?
[00:14:46] Linden: Look, it, it does need to be a little bit case by case. Yeah. So, you know- Yeah
[00:14:50] if, if I did have that continuous INTELLO line all the way through the house, I, I think I'd be pretty hard-assed about making sure that- Yes ... we're gonna hit our air change.
[00:14:57] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:14:58] Linden: Um, if, [00:15:00] if we're talking about a project that is a little bit unknown about the outcome, like we're, we're working on a couple of projects at the moment that are brick veneer or double brick.
[00:15:11] We're over wrapping. We've got five sides of the box really well sorted. We just don't know what we're gonna get in the interaction with the sixth side, being the floor.
[00:15:21] Matt: What floor have you got?
[00:15:22] Linden: Um, framed. Um-
[00:15:24] Matt: Timber framed?
[00:15:25] Linden: Yeah. So we-
[00:15:25] Matt: Just put the Vista on it, and Pro
[00:15:28] Linden: Clima. Yeah. It's how we brea- how we get across the cavities, um, and whether or not we can get someone underneath to render down to the ground and use the ground as an airtight layer, or whether-
[00:15:38] Hamish: Can you get under the floor?
[00:15:39] Linden: Well, not always. And sometimes it's, the answer is part of the way. Yeah, okay. And so we really don't know where we're gonna go. And that's, that's where, like, to me, the real skill in retrofit projects and interacting with builders- is in picking an appropriate scope or scale [00:16:00] that we're gonna target within the t- the tender documents.
[00:16:04] Because if we are overly optimistic, we will end up with a project that is the right number, but has so many variations that it's, it's gonna be difficult.
[00:16:12] Matt: That's kinda what I was getting at, yeah. That's why, that's why I think a provisional sum's safer, so you don't just- Yeah ... keep getting hit with- Yeah
[00:16:16] variation, 'cause that's not, well, that wasn't on the plan, and we didn't know that, and we didn't... And then that quickly could be taking the piss.
[00:16:23] Hamish: Yeah. I'm, I'm hoping, I'm hoping someone's superhero's not gonna die when I say this, but, um, we've got a couple of projects at the moment where I've suggested to clients that we explore using spray foam.
[00:16:34] I've- Closed cell spray foam in the subfloor.
[00:16:37] Matt: It can fail. I just had this wolfied.
[00:16:39] Hamish: Yeah, okay. Well, I mean- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... these are things that we're exploring. I, I, I thought it was- And I was chat- chatting with Cam about it, because there's, there's tricky details where you're trying to get, um, air tightness, and how do you connect the air- Yeah
[00:16:51] like the walls with the subfloor? And, you know, filling it full of closed cell foam, like well, that probably-
[00:16:57] Matt: I, uh, people poo-poo spray
[00:16:58] Hamish: foam- When you say, when you say fail-
[00:16:59] Matt: It was [00:17:00] just not part... It wasn't, it was a mold risk on that wolfy.
[00:17:03] Hamish: Right. So- Whereabouts?
[00:17:04] Matt: Um, this is a double brick.
[00:17:07] Hamish: But where was the foam?
[00:17:08] Matt: Uh, it was sprayed up in a cavity against the double brick.
[00:17:11] Hamish: Like, yeah, but it's not subfloor though? 'Cause that's different. No, no, no, no. It's a completely different- No ... moisture's moving differently there. Yeah, yeah,
[00:17:16] Matt: yeah, yeah, true. F- actually, fair point. But-
[00:17:18] Hamish: I wouldn't be concerned in a subfloor, and but I'd never consider it for walls or in a roof- Yeah
[00:17:22] 'cause moisture's moving differently. But on a subfloor- I've done it on a
[00:17:24] Matt: subfloor, and-
[00:17:25] Hamish: I, I, I- ...
[00:17:26] Matt: it's actually a very good solution, 'cause you get airtight. But people poo-poo foam, and yes, we should try to avoid it.
[00:17:32] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:17:33] Matt: But what's better? A house that's gonna leak and be energy efficient and not comfortable, and then the health, durability, comfort of the, the occupants are at risk?
[00:17:42] Or one that we use- Well, I think- ... a product like that that's gonna be fine and last?
[00:17:45] Hamish: And I think this is where you just need to look at it all, like everything, you said something before about case, everything's case by case. Like, I would not recommend this for e- every home- Ah ... home we build.
[00:17:53] Matt: So this is literally when you...
[00:17:54] My, my, one of my questions is you've got the, uh, you and you're exploring to do a retrofit, [00:18:00] and you'll, the, the passive house pointing to this retrofit document, you c- it's, you can't give advice on how to retrofit, 'cause it just literally, as Cam say, it depends
[00:18:10] Linden: It absolutely does depend, and it's, it's about making sure that you, a- as a client or procur- someone procuring these projects, you actually know to include this in the scope.
[00:18:26] Yeah. Because otherwise it's, it's a... If you don't have someone who's got some knowledge, um, around how to retrofit the building and the risks that occur when you start doing it, then you're actually opening yourself up to- They're the, they're the- ... problems ...
[00:18:41] Matt: they're the most dangerous. Like, y- building new is easy.
[00:18:46] Honestly, you get a free shot at a new building. If you can't hit a Passive House Point 6 with a new building, you probably shouldn't be building. If you've got the right systems, honestly, like, it's a very simple process. Retrofitting, yeah, you, you [00:19:00] don't know what you're getting into. You don't know, yeah, the, is there less weep holes than you thought, and they're blocked up with all the, the back of the mud or the, the mortar is completely filling the cavity or...
[00:19:11] You can't see that th- unless we've ripped the whole house apart before we start, you just don't know.
[00:19:16] Linden: Yeah, well, like, we, we were lucky enough to have a project not long ago where- We did the design exercise, and we, we modeled the existing house. So on th- in this case, it was pretty much a finished house inside.
[00:19:29] They didn't actually want to do anything to the house to change it. They... All they wanted to do was improve energy efficiency and comfort- Yeah ... and health. So, um, we sat down, we did the modeling exercise. We produced a PHPP, showed how the existing building compared to the NAHFIT standard, and then we also showed a number of design variants that showed different ways that we could either hit that standard or go close to it, um, using the [00:20:00] low energy set as a reference point as well.
[00:20:02] Matt: Yeah.
[00:20:03] Linden: Um, and that, the response from them was, "This is great, but, you know, we are interested in seeing what happens if we do little bits at a time, and we don't necessarily want to go the whole hog and finish it." And so we were put in a position where the brief became, "Yes, we know the risks. We would like to play in that space."
[00:20:30] Hamish: Who signs off on this? Um- This is what I was gonna s- I was about to say, like, 'cause... Yeah, sorry, go. Yeah.
[00:20:35] Linden: So we, the way we, we approached that was we'd done a preliminary blower door test of the house. We knew, we had a good idea where most airflow was coming in, and so we targeted those areas, and we essentially sealed up plaster vents.
[00:20:52] Um, we sealed up ceiling roses. Um, we had a few areas that we had planned to target with, with some Intello. [00:21:00] We, we rendered the insides of fireplaces, and we put a membrane underneath their floor, which already had some polyester insulation. We just, we put a membrane in- Yeah ... and we rendered it into the footing.
[00:21:14] And we were able to significantly improve. We couldn't pressurize the building on that first blower door test. We were able to improve things. Did, did it
[00:21:21] Matt: give you, like, a guesstimate? Do you remember? Like, 'cause a lot of those give you a guesstimate.
[00:21:24] Linden: Yeah, look, we were, we were up around the, you know, 25-plus air changes an hour.
[00:21:28] Yeah. And we managed to get it kind of in the direction of, uh, off the top of my head, 12. Yep. Wow. Um, on that first round of just plugging the big holes. And on that second blower door test, we walked around, and we found another bunch of low-hanging fruit to target. Um, that was done alongside some window swaps for, they had some good windows.
[00:21:50] When
[00:21:50] Matt: you say the second time, this is a different stage of building, or was it, it-
[00:21:53] Linden: Yeah, we, we literally did- They
[00:21:54] Matt: were
[00:21:55] Linden: do- ... plus-plus with the builder, and we did a discreet, kind of these are the [00:22:00] first- Yeah ... this is the low-hanging fruit on this building, and this is how we're gonna attack it. Um, this client already had some monitoring in the house.
[00:22:06] They had an idea of humidity and temperature. Yeah. Um, so that all stays. Um, and then, yeah, second round, after doing some windows, we managed to get it a hell of a lot tighter I think we, we ended up getting pretty close to eight in the end. Yep. It's not Passive House, but it's, you know- Better ... it's a very, very big- Yeah,
[00:22:25] Hamish: but li- the
[00:22:25] Linden: lived
[00:22:25] Hamish: experience in there would be- Improvement
[00:22:27] wildly different.
[00:22:27] Linden: Yeah. And then we paired that with putting a H- HRV in. Yep. Um, so that we've- Centralized ... have got some, a centralized HRV.
[00:22:36] Hamish: Yep
[00:22:37] Linden: Um, that's managed our condensation.
[00:22:39] Hamish: How, when, where are you running that? Are you, did you create bulkheads or you've got insulated ducts above in the ceiling space?
[00:22:44] Linden: Uh, a mix of everything. Sort of we were, we're lucky enough to be working with Nick Soden from Soden Constructions, and we had fresh ventilation, um, as a, a local HRV supplier who was, um, helping-
[00:22:56] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:22:56] Linden: make all that happen, and so we, we scoped it quite carefully. We looked at where we could [00:23:00] thread things through the building.
[00:23:01] Hamish: Yep.
[00:23:02] Linden: Um, I think we ended up with one bulkhead.
[00:23:05] Hamish: Yep.
[00:23:05] Linden: Um- That's pretty good ... a few things inside wardrobes.
[00:23:08] Hamish: But no- Yeah ... no improvement on, um, any external insulation or a- any insulation upgrades?
[00:23:16] Linden: Uh, in the end, we did the roof, and we did cavity fill insulation.
[00:23:19] Hamish: Okay.
[00:23:20] Linden: Um, so we, we did breach the cavity.
[00:23:22] Hamish: So it's double brick?
[00:23:23] Linden: Um, it's double brick house. Yep. Single brick upstairs. Yeah, do, do in- Um, or brick veneer upstairs ... yeah, do
[00:23:28] Matt: you do your own modeling?
[00:23:30] Linden: Yes, we
[00:23:30] Matt: do. And do your own WUFI or ex- uh, source that?
[00:23:32] Linden: We do not know how to do WUFI. Yeah, the- We, we, that one's something that I think you-
[00:23:37] Matt: Don't
[00:23:38] Linden: know ... you, it's best to get someone who's doing it regularly-
[00:23:40] Matt: Yep
[00:23:41] Linden: um, to help on those. It's subjective '
[00:23:42] Matt: cause you can make anything pass.
[00:23:44] Linden: That's right. Yeah. And just when your brain's not in it all the time- Yep ... it's, it's not really the thing that we should be- So do you- ... focusing on ...
[00:23:50] Hamish: do you, so throughout that process, you said there was a builder that was there on Cost Plus.
[00:23:54] Was he als- or he or she also involved during pre-construction on that project?
[00:23:58] Linden: Um, [00:24:00] in this case, no. Um, but an equivalently experienced builder was, um, and it just came down to availability.
[00:24:09] Hamish: Okay. Um-
[00:24:10] Linden: And
[00:24:11] Hamish: yeah, okay ... and, you know. But that, I've just got ACI question marks circling. Oh, you cannot
[00:24:15] Matt: do a retrofit of that.
[00:24:16] Hamish: Yeah, I was just gonna say- No chance ... um, so that's something that you, you, you practice within your firm?
[00:24:21] Linden: Absolutely. So I, I, I realize I have missed answering a question right from the beginning, which is, um, architects don't all hate builders. Um, we love them. Um-
[00:24:31] Hamish: We also love architects too ... it's- That's not what you said on the plane this morning.
[00:24:35] Yeah, but that was off camera, mate, so that doesn't count.
[00:24:39] Linden: Yeah, look, we, I worked very hard to be knowledgeable about the materials and the build ups and the performance of what we try and put together and to understand how to model things well. Um, but ultimately, I'm an architect. I draw stuff.
[00:24:59] Hamish: Yep.
[00:24:59] Linden: [00:25:00] And I lean very heavily on people who physically put stuff together, um, to understand whether something is feasible or to understand the labor involved.
[00:25:14] Um, so we- You know, I, I might think that it's very, very easy to carry these five things in and lay them down and put them together in a particular way and, you know, a builder will look at me and just go, "You are mad." Like, that's just the most inefficient way of doing this. And, you know, the benefit of, uh, something like an ECI process is that the floor is open, they are literally being paid to be in the room-
[00:25:42] Matt: Yep
[00:25:43] Linden: and to tell me that so that we can get it as optimized and focused as we can.
[00:25:49] Matt: But even with that, Haim, like, this time, like, uh, the, the same process applies to builders. Like, we don't know anything or everything, and we l- we lean on our specific trades to get expert opinions-
[00:25:59] Hamish: [00:26:00] Oh,
[00:26:00] Matt: totally ... from their trades.
[00:26:01] So it's like, it's, there's no difference between an architect asking the builder to be involved than a builder also relying on the trades to help us get to the answer. We- we're, we're just, yeah. Can I, can I jump in, Haim? Because, like, this all sounds hard. Why don't we just knock them down and start again?
[00:26:16] Linden: Well, 'cause there's nine and a half million existing houses that I think most of them were built pre-energy efficiency
[00:26:24] Matt: provisions Yeah, but like
[00:26:25] Linden: just
[00:26:25] Matt: knock them down and start again
[00:26:27] Linden: Like, we, we can't even build enough new ones to cover the additional people that we have at the moment. And, you know, and I, I don't know the Victorian context particularly well- It's shit
[00:26:37] but up here in Sydney, like we've just had, there's six and a half thousand homes at the end of my street. There's 10,400 in, um, kinda in the Bay's West precincts. Yeah Um, the old, old cement works and docks. Um, we've got 18 and a half thousand proposed for North Bur- Burwood, [00:27:00] which is, you know, Burwood's a big center.
[00:27:03] It's got some big buildings, but, you know, we are massively changing the population of a relatively suburban part of Sydney. And, you know, it makes sense to make these molehills around transport infrastructure. Um, and so I can see why they're putting them there, but it's... And I don't dispute the need for those buildings to be- Mm
[00:27:28] put there. Right now, I'm looking at it just going, this is going to be the retrofit work of the future because- Yeah ... none of them are being done particularly well We said that
[00:27:37] Matt: to, we said that
[00:27:38] Hamish: to David the politician We said, we said that- DJ Dave ...
[00:27:38] Matt: the volume builders are
[00:27:39] Hamish: the, uh- Gaff- ... fu- fu- future retrofit projects.
[00:27:43] Matt: So- Yeah ... because I think there's also, the reason I ask that, is it leads, it sort of leads nicely into where I wanted to go, because there's renovations and extensions, and there's retrofits. They're a little bit different. Yep Um, and I wanna touch on that because, uh, to, to me a retrofit is sort of touching [00:28:00] almost everything on the inside.
[00:28:01] Reno- renovation is probably inside- Bathroom ... inside. Now ren- Kitchen ... in, I take those inside and out
[00:28:07] Hamish: A renovation? Uh, okay. Sure.
[00:28:09] Matt: Yeah. Yep. Potenti- And then the next renovation extension is like this, like it's adding on.
[00:28:14] Hamish: Yeah
[00:28:14] Matt: So it's like a new build plus...
[00:28:17] Linden: Yep. Um, look, uh, we are definitely exploring a number of projects that aren't heavily focused on changes to the building.
[00:28:24] They, they're, they are, you know, purely retrofit. There might be a new kitchen, there might be move things around a little bit, but- They are very much focused on are houses spatially okay or adequate.
[00:28:39] Matt: Yeah, it's a good starting convers- Um, and- So what do, where do you start with that?
[00:28:41] Linden: That's right. And then the, the other thing that we're overlaying that, on that is, you know, as a retrofit strategy, what's our scope?
[00:28:48] Are we, are we gonna try and improve everything from the inside? Um, which means we have to negotiate footings and internal walls. Just
[00:28:57] Matt: stripping everything back. Um- That's, that's practically going down [00:29:00] the renovation path.
[00:29:01] Linden: That's right. And we- we're also probably putting ourselves in a slightly riskier place from a moisture management and condensation point of view.
[00:29:08] Um, that's where the wooly is really, really important. Um, whereas, um, if we're working a little bit further out of the inner parts of the city and we happen to, you know, A, own our walls, and B, even have a little bit of space around those walls, then we're really starting at looking at overwrapping houses.
[00:29:29] Like
[00:29:29] Matt: an out-of-it.
[00:29:30] Linden: Yeah. That's, that's a, that's a very different scope of work. Yeah.
[00:29:35] Hamish: So all the, all the homes that you're talking about now, when, when we talk about retrofits, we're talking about not only replacing kitchen, bathrooms and ma- Yeah ... freshening it up inside, we're also addressing the thermal performance of the home as well.
[00:29:47] Linden: Yes. And that, that's something that we will choose how we speak about a project based on what a client's objectives-
[00:29:57] Hamish: Yep ...
[00:29:57] Linden: are. Um, [00:30:00] you know, if they're coming to us saying they don't necessarily want to change the planet, they, they are just wanting a comfortable home, um-
[00:30:10] Then that's, that's not a reason not to address thermal comfort and airflow through a house.
[00:30:17] Hamish: Mm.
[00:30:18] Linden: That is simply that we don't necessarily need to explain the carbon, uh, operational carbon saved by what- Yeah ... we're doing.
[00:30:26] Matt: Yeah. Do we, do we, do we overcomplicate the carbon conversation sometimes? Like, do we need to tell- To some
[00:30:32] Hamish: people.
[00:30:32] Yeah, yeah. I think to the broader, broader- Yeah ... market, yes, but to some people, no.
[00:30:36] Matt: Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, but- Yeah ... but it's like some people wanna know the passive house data- Yeah ... but it's like the, like, 90% or 90% don't care, they just wanna know it's comfortable, the 10% wanna know the, how did you get to that number?
[00:30:47] Probably the same with the carbon.
[00:30:48] Hamish: I think carbon's gonna be one of those things that it's probably gonna become more of language in retrofits soon. In my- Like, you know, everyone's like sustainability and thermal comfort and performance and health, I think [00:31:00] carbon's gonna be the next thing that's talked about.
[00:31:01] Matt: But shouldn't that be a conversation in new builds, not so much renovations and retrofits? Because you're kind of keeping- I think it's gonna be across
[00:31:06] Hamish: the board.
[00:31:06] Matt: Yeah, because kind of the most sustain- sustainable, loose, whatever word we wanna say, building- If
[00:31:13] Linden: you, if you look at-
[00:31:13] Matt: Yeah ... a
[00:31:14] Linden: project like 100 Macnab, which was the first high-rise NFIT- Yeah
[00:31:18] um, certified project, um, which was in Toronto, it was designed by ERA Architects. They started with a project brief of, um... or at least my understanding of it is their brief was essentially to knock the building down and build another one. It was a building that was end of life, and they were the ones that put back on the table, "Hey, we could actually improve this building."
[00:31:40] And so-
[00:31:41] Hamish: How did they, how do they, how do they come to the conclusion that this building is end of life? Like, what's, what, what's the criteria for accessibility? I think we
[00:31:48] Matt: just thought, probably just thought it was.
[00:31:49] Linden: From a building owner's perspective, it was just kind of, "There's too much maintenance to do here."
[00:31:53] Okay, okay. Um, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily, floor plates are not great or-
[00:31:59] Hamish: Okay.
[00:31:59] Linden: So- You know, good designs ... so it's [00:32:00] a
[00:32:00] Hamish: structural, a structural thing. Okay.
[00:32:02] Linden: Um, but I, you know, as I say, I'm, don't know huge amounts of that, about that, but I do know that that building got delivered, I think, at a very similar cost to delivering a new building at a significantly less price tag.
[00:32:15] Um, and with a massive kind of carbon argument that-
[00:32:21] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:32:21] Linden: that just blew it out of the water. So it was just like, "Hey, this is, this is actually- Everything stacks
[00:32:25] Matt: up,
[00:32:25] Hamish: yeah ...
[00:32:26] Linden: something that we should be- Yeah ... be looking at doing." Um-
[00:32:28] Hamish: Yeah, and, and creating a, a, like a, um, like a hallmark project to say that this can be done.
[00:32:35] Linden: That's
[00:32:35] Hamish: right. And, and we're preserving this beautiful building. Like, yeah.
[00:32:38] Matt: Where, where do you draw a line that you will say, "No, we should knock this down"? I know, like, 'cause it's a, the reason I ask it, it's a difficult question when you're on a retrofit committee pushing retrofits. Yeah. There always comes a point, and I joke with Dylan from Owen all the time, like, "Just knock it down.
[00:32:53] Like, who cares?" As, as a joke. Yeah. But, like, the question is, like, there, there becomes a point where you kind of... [00:33:00] it starts to go, "Hmm, do we do it or... Do we do that or not?"
[00:33:04] Linden: I think the it depends question or answer comes up a lot. Yeah. It's, um- You know, our reasons for why you would not retrofit a project might be that, that the cost of a new building is relatively line ball-
[00:33:23] Hamish: Mm
[00:33:24] Linden: and the potential risk of retrofit versus new build, given we're already pushing someone's budget, is, is too high to-
[00:33:35] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:33:36] Linden: to go down the retrofit path. Um, other times it'll be, you know, the quality of the existing building- Structure ... and whether or not you can actually work with it enough or the, you know, things like moisture-
[00:33:48] Hamish: Yeah
[00:33:48] Linden: coming up through walls and the like.
[00:33:51] Hamish: Yeah, I mean, you- How well can you control ... it, it sounds like a lot of the projects that you're dealing with are, um, double brick maybe. I don't... Do you use sandstone, um, [00:34:00] footings here? Yeah, okay. Yeah. So this is the kind of things that we're talking about here.
[00:34:03] Matt: And new heritage overlays, you start
[00:34:04] Hamish: to kind of- A- and, and heritage overlay.
[00:34:05] Yeah. Like, I went to... Probably for me to answer that question, I went to, uh, look at a new project last week where there was two options under the table, new home and an extension renovation of the existing. Extension renovation of the existing, I think, on paper was a couple hundred grand in their favor.
[00:34:24] And I, I was looking at the, the building and I'm like, "Okay, has this been taken into consideration? Has this been taken into consideration?" Even talking to them, we knew that, like the front right-hand side of the house was dropping, so that's new stumps. Okay, there's new roof, new cladding. And like, if you can bring your budget up for a new home, you're gonna get a much better outcome and a much more predictable outcome.
[00:34:47] And rather than use the new h- the existing home there as a design consideration, get rid of it and have full range. Now, I'm not saying that that has to happen for every project, but- Just
[00:34:59] Matt: knock them down, Hamish. [00:35:00] Knock them down. '
[00:35:02] Hamish: Cause I'm a big advo- advocate- No, no, okay ... for keeping new buildings. Uh, for, for keeping existing buildings.
[00:35:06] But there are... There's a point of, you know what? I understand this building has some sort of heritage value or some kind of carbon value that needs to take into consideration, but you're gonna be better off in the long term by getting rid of it
[00:35:23] Linden: Uh, absolutely. I think, I think once you take into account heritage, and you also take into account a few other factors, sometimes there's not a lot of choice.
[00:35:33] Hamish: Yeah,
[00:35:33] Linden: okay. Yeah Often the ones that you are embarking on retrofit are that y- you know. There's a council nearby here where if you've got sandstone footings and they can't even be rendered, they've, they've got to, they've got to stay as sandstone footings and visible. Wow. Um-
[00:35:47] Matt: So this is my, so this is where-
[00:35:49] because I feel like heritage advisors are the ones holding back energy efficiency and building better a lot of the time. Now- ... you don't have to say it, I'll say it. But, uh, yeah
[00:35:59] Linden: I, [00:36:00] I wanna learn how to work really well with heritage people. I, my whole career I've worked on heritage, and I absolutely see the value in keeping buildings.
[00:36:10] But when we keep them in a way that makes them really uncomfortable or means that they degrade-
[00:36:16] Matt: Is it really
[00:36:16] Linden: heritage? That's, that's, that's not achieving the outcome '
[00:36:18] Hamish: Cause there's the argument to say, "What we're proposing is gonna prolong the life of this building for another 100 years." That's
[00:36:23] Linden: right.
[00:36:24] Hamish: So, but if we do what you're doing...
[00:36:27] Matt: And they ignore code, so perfect example is now we've got to batten out our
[00:36:31] Linden: cladding. Yeah.
[00:36:31] Matt: Are, are they allowing that? Um- 'Cause they kinda got no choice ...
[00:36:36] Linden: it tends to be a little case by case and negotiating. Um, I think there's, yeah, i- it's a, you know, your typical terrace house, the first thing that I want to be allowed to do is to take the roof off, add, add some above sheathing, um, ventilation, and put the roof back on.
[00:36:58] And, [00:37:00] you know, that's 100 millimeters of difference in height. Yeah. And it's a argument that I don't think I've won yet.
[00:37:07] Matt: So, so, so, so why can't you
[00:37:10] go, "That's fine, that's cool, but here's a legal letter that if there's issues with condensation, 'cause it's now in the code, you guys need to sign off on this"? Because that, ultimately, you as the architect have done your job. The builder wants to build that way. The clients want it that way. So you now remove the risk from you guys.
[00:37:28] "We want, we have to build this way due to NCC, 'cause of this clause here. Can you sign and say that you accept that, that we've advised on this, and if there's any issues, it will come back on you?" And watch how quickly they'll change their tune.
[00:37:39] Linden: Well, the w- the way that we do that is that we keep it in the plans, and we make them modify it.
[00:37:44] Matt: You just
[00:37:44] Linden: do it. So it's, it's modified by the consent. Like,
[00:37:47] Hamish: they, they are actually- Ah, right. So you, you, you keep the drawing. So this is how we've drawn it, and then,
[00:37:51] Matt: yeah, okay They've gotta pick it out
[00:37:53] Linden: themselves. Yeah. I show, I show the above, like the- Detail ... extra height on the- And then
[00:37:57] Hamish: you just
[00:37:58] Linden: put like a circle around it
[00:37:59] Matt: across the roof, and they [00:38:00] circle to it. Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:00] Linden: So yeah- And say, "That's not
[00:38:00] Matt: allowed to happen." But the other one, the other one i- Is that, yeah, but if they say that, then, "Oh, you can't lift it", what do they say?
[00:38:07] Linden: Um, it's usually the response is it's good enough for most people, so why is it not good enough for you?
[00:38:15] Um-
[00:38:15] Matt: Oh, that would drive me insane ... which is- I would lose my shit.
[00:38:20] Linden: Well, look, you know, council, working with councils, working with planners and heritage advisors, we're all coming from different angles. It's a bit like architects versus builders. But this is
[00:38:31] Matt: a selfish, this is a selfish reason. Everyone else is really happy to give a bit and take a bit.
[00:38:35] I don't think they are.
[00:38:37] Linden: I, I would say that the younger, particularly female heritage advisors and planners coming through, are a lot more open to a-
[00:38:46] Matt: Holistic
[00:38:46] Linden: approach ... broader, holistic discussion- No, and I agree ... about what we're trying to achieve. Yep. And, you know, our, our approach is usually to go in pre-DA with- Yeah
[00:38:55] a full open book strategy of here's all the non-compliances, here's our best a- [00:39:00] argument for why we think it's okay, and have a chat about it.
[00:39:04] Matt: Yeah. But how about win- like windows, single glazed windows where they now want you to put little, I don't know if it happened to you, the little sticker to say that's the original glazing.
[00:39:11] I can't... Oh, we can't make windows like we used to. Well, why don't we just go, "How about you... Like, there's a, there's a space that they could make so much extra money as council, and we're gonna come inspect these in stages to make sure that window looks exactly like it used to be."
[00:39:22] Linden: Look, it, there's always gonna be someone resistive to it.
[00:39:26] It's just, you know, we- you think about it, like five years ago we had to explain what Passive House was. Yep. Whereas now people know what it is, people are coming and asking for it. Yeah.
[00:39:34] Hamish: Is Passive House mainstream yet? No.
[00:39:37] Linden: It's definitely not mainstream, but it's, I, I would say that it's desirable. Yeah. Um, and you know, at least in my little bubble-
[00:39:45] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:46] Linden: Do you think it's affordable? ... a lot of, a lot of people are quite keen on it. Um, it's a
[00:39:53] It's, that's a very, very tough question right now. Um, it's, we're, we are [00:40:00] focusing on some projects that we had been incredibly careful on scope, ambition, the way that we, we designed in order to make things easy. Um, and that, that is something that we're still seeing high prices come back. Um-
[00:40:22] Matt: Is that due to the performance, or is that due to the architecture?
[00:40:25] Like, in res- respect to you've gotta be an architect, you've gotta design something. Like-
[00:40:29] Hamish: Hang on. Can we just, can we just clarify something for a second? The prices that are coming back are higher than what the client wanted to spend.
[00:40:36] Linden: Yes, which is normal.
[00:40:37] Matt: Exactly, yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:38] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:40:39] Linden: That's what we're alluding to.
[00:40:40] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:40:40] Linden: That is absolutely normal. Um, and-
[00:40:42] Hamish: No, no, no, I, I was just more clarifying because with respect to designers and b- architects, when people say, "Oh, the price is too high"- Compared to? ... or, "That's too" or "You're too expensive", I'm like, "Hang on a minute. I'm not the one that designed this."
[00:40:58] Linden: Yeah.
[00:40:58] Hamish: And I'm, I'm being quite [00:41:00] carefully, and I'm, I really wanna kinda talk this through here, 'cause I'd just like just to change the language just around it a little bit, 'cause I think that's important- Mm
[00:41:07] 'cause it is bringing everyone into solving the problem. It's not shifting the blame.
[00:41:11] Linden: Yeah. Um-
[00:41:13] Hamish: Especially when you're digressing- No, because es- especially when you- I do apologize ... mate. I didn't mean to, didn't mean
[00:41:16] Linden: to- I, I totally agree with you. Um, so I, I think, you know, the, the message to me, first one, is that I don't think Passive House is particularly expensive over doing what I'd call well-built sevens, like minimum code seven stars.
[00:41:33] Or,
[00:41:33] Hamish: or, or another custom home. Or just, and just architectural homes. Yeah.
[00:41:36] Linden: Yeah. Like, it, it's just about the fact that you're building one of them-
[00:41:39] Hamish: Yes, agree ...
[00:41:39] Linden: and, um, you are trying to... Like our relationship and the client's relationship with the builder on these types of homes is always going to be one team with their subbies, and the way that [00:42:00] they can manage their risk for that team during the process of that build.
[00:42:04] And so they need, if we propose something that is a cost saving- Then, then that actually has to save labor. Like, the, the components of cost for all work, whether we're seeing it as part of the price inclusion or whether it's cost plus or whether it's a variation, there is a margin on top that relates to business costs.
[00:42:30] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:42:31] Linden: There is a margin on top that relates to appropriate profit margin, bearing in mind that there is a warranty commitment on a building, and there is responsibility in the longer term that you might have to come back and fix stuff. So it's not pure profit. It's, it is money
[00:42:49] Matt: to keep the- Is this the first architect that's got it?
[00:42:50] Hamish: I am sitting here
[00:42:51] Matt: just- Sorry,
[00:42:51] Hamish: not that- ... just nodding and
[00:42:52] Matt: smiling
[00:42:53] Hamish: and-
[00:42:54] Matt: Like, the, this is we- ... hoping this is real. Yeah. This is, we bang on about this all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And s- people are just like, "Oh, you make all that [00:43:00] money." It's like, "No, I don't make 25% profit." So- Like, I can tell you we don't.
[00:43:03] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:43:04] Linden: I, I'm not cl- disclosing any profit margins.
[00:43:06] No. But I'm- Yeah ... I'm saying kind of there, there is a- Yeah ... significant component of price that is attached to just running the builder's business, covering the insurances they have to have- Yeah ... and having the QA systems and everything else they have to have, plus that risk. And then after that, you have to go off and buy the materials.
[00:43:25] You can walk around Bunnings. You can check-
[00:43:26] Matt: Yeah, yeah ...
[00:43:27] Linden: how much stuff costs. The builder's price isn't really that much different from most of your building materials. Yeah. You might get a little bit because you buy a lot, or you might get-
[00:43:36] Matt: They've all got to be competitive, these big companies.
[00:43:37] Linden: That's right.
[00:43:38] It's, you're not saving huge amounts for that, and then the only other component is labor.
[00:43:42] Matt: And that's...
[00:43:44] Linden: And, yeah, no, labor is a significant cost. We need to think, um, in our minds like, I would have thought- Like an average man day is somewhere between $600 and $800 [00:44:00] per day-
[00:44:00] Matt: Yep ...
[00:44:01] Linden: on site. And if we're gonna have...
[00:44:04] It's usually two people doing stuff- Yeah ... and one person helping them. So there's three people, and that's, you know, you have to cover that wage for the full extent of the job, and that is, that is the component of price.
[00:44:18] Hamish: Can I- can you start doing projects then in Melbourne? I will do your projects.
[00:44:22] Linden: I can tell you that there are people in Melbourne who know, know this stuff as well.
[00:44:25] Okay. Yeah. It's a, it's a... But this is what we're trying to pull together, and so when we try and pull together- And retrofits use more labor ... a client's
[00:44:33] Hamish: wish list- Yeah ...
[00:44:34] Linden: and we manage the minimum obligation and costs to have a builder there, we've got to mash that together into a bu- a budget that can work for a project.
[00:44:46] Matt: And retrofits have more labor, and like on a typical, if we say a $1.5 million build, 'cause building's not cheap, there's gonna be between two, 2500 to 3000 carpentry hours, which is pretty much bang [00:45:00] on with what you roughly, if you work out the maths quickly, like, yeah, you, you times that 600 by th- three. By the way, it's not they get paid 600, the wage, they might get paid their $50 an hour, but it costs us double to run them by the time we have work cover, payroll tax, all these other things.
[00:45:15] The other thing that I was going to, um, say, and again, I've gone completely blank on this, retrofits-
[00:45:25] Hamish: We can edit this out. It's fine.
[00:45:26] Matt: Ah, it was really good. It was on labor.
[00:45:30] Hamish: Here's a question while Matt's thinking. Um, do you think that you've got a much better appreciation of labor having done the Intello on your own home?
[00:45:42] Linden: Yes. Um, that, like the things that I learnt by having to go and do that. So the, the reason why I ended up doing it was I worked... It was my first Passive House project. I worked with a builder who wasn't a Passive House builder, but I had a very good relationship with, and-
[00:45:59] Hamish: Who's the builder? Shout 'em out.
[00:45:59] Linden: [00:46:00] Um, it's Life Structures.
[00:46:01] Great. Um, Mark Ferrigie and Matt Rabessa. Um, and so- Mm ... you know, they... What was great about that project was that they were happy to try something new.
[00:46:12] Hamish: Yep.
[00:46:13] Linden: And when we got talking about what a Passive House actually meant in this context, the thing that was perceived as risky was the airtight barrier. And so external wraps and sealing those, that felt pretty normal.
[00:46:28] That's, that felt, "This is what we normally do as a builder"-
[00:46:30] Hamish: Yep ... "
[00:46:31] Linden: and we're happy to do that, and we don't see that as, as a particularly big risk. It's a little bit more finicky than normal, but it's, it's fine." And, you know, we were using Mento and Extesana, um, and Tescon tape, so nothing super difficult. Um, airtight, you know, I used OSB 4 as my airtight layer- Really?
[00:46:50] so I needed to, I needed to go and, um, seal all of the joints.
[00:46:54] Matt: Do you do that anymore, or is it just Intello?
[00:46:56] Linden: No. Um, we were, we're using a SIP system. Um, we [00:47:00] haven't found that to stack up on further projects, um, doing things in that way. We're- So you just- Intello is definitely quicker
[00:47:06] Matt: Oh, you- oh, so you used SIPs.
[00:47:07] You didn't do install the ply. Okay, cool.
[00:47:09] Linden: Yep. So we made use of the fact that we had something there. Um, I was also, I, this house- was a unexpected project. Um, and it, it, we had very limited time. We were in insurance process. I had very limited time to suddenly design a new home and get building. Um, and so I used a system that I
[00:47:34] Matt: knew- Your house caught fire, wasn't it?
[00:47:34] Is that, is that you?
[00:47:35] Linden: We had a fire next door. Yeah, yeah. So we, we had a total loss claim. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's a, like we, you know, I-
[00:47:43] Hamish: Was it an extension reno, or
[00:47:44] Linden: was it new? No, it was
[00:47:46] Hamish: a totally new build house. Totally new build. Okay. Um- So Passive House Classic certified?
[00:47:48] Linden: Uh, we are not certified yet. We are on track for Plus.
[00:47:53] Hamish: Nice. Um, but-
[00:47:54] Linden: Yep.
[00:47:54] Matt: Have you finished?
[00:47:55] Linden: No.
[00:47:55] Matt: Oh, so you're still constructing. We're out in the truck. You're still... So, 'cause g- this goes back to the [00:48:00] whole cost conversation. Mm-hmm. Is it just okay if we say Passive House is more expensive, it's a premium product?
[00:48:05] Linden: I think it's okay to say it's more expensive, but it's, it's, it's the reason for it being more expensive.
[00:48:11] Matt: But it's like saying, it's like comparing the Ferrari to the, the Suzuki Swift. Like, sorry if you design a Suzu- Suzuki, or if you drive a Suzuki Swift. They're two different products.
[00:48:21] Linden: Yes. So-
[00:48:22] Matt: What are
[00:48:23] Hamish: you comparing it to, though, as well? That's kinda what I
[00:48:25] Matt: wanna know. Yeah. And that's, that's what I'm saying.
[00:48:26] Like, what are we comparing, 100%, what are we comparing it to? Yeah. Because if we're to, if we're gonna go and compare it to someone who's got a $10 million budget and build this house that's got hydronic heating and all these commercially glazed, uh, um, steel windows, Taite, what would have been cheaper? A Passive House.
[00:48:45] Linden: Absolutely. And, and the reason- But like, the reason for that is that it depends on where you're spending your money. So the, the investment in a Passive House is on the external building envelope. So in my- You [00:49:00] reckon? In my case- Oh ... I spent-
[00:49:02] Hamish: Was that sarcasm, Matt?
[00:49:03] Matt: No, no, I actually don't think it is. I think every building is, like, now wraps externally, has the batten system externally.
[00:49:08] It shouldn't change anything.
[00:49:10] Hamish: No,
[00:49:12] Linden: I think, uh, were you s- were you talking about the thermal envelope? T- thermal envelope. So including- Yeah ... windows, including- Yeah ... including- Wow ... wraps, including additional insulation. Like here in Sydney, we're, we tend to get away with, you, you can do it with a 90 mil frame-
[00:49:23] Hamish: Yeah
[00:49:23] Linden: um, with a high risk. Um, 140 mil frame is a pretty standard approach.
[00:49:29] Hamish: When, when you say high risk, you're talking more about whether or not you're actually gonna reach the criteria of Passive House?
[00:49:34] Linden: Um- And the- ... I'm thinking more that your potential for cold spots- Okay, yep. Okay, yep ... and, and kind of weak points.
[00:49:38] So
[00:49:39] Matt: I wanna challenge you on this, because I think that the cost of the project difference is the inside. If we look at the difference in material costs for a 140 to 90 mil wall, what's it gonna add to a project? Fi- let's just call it five grand, it's probably not gonna be that.
[00:49:55] Linden: Yep.
[00:49:56] Matt: The, the wrap should be the same.
[00:49:57] Linden: Yep.
[00:49:57] Matt: The roof setup should be the same. [00:50:00] Like, there should be external, there should be a roof membrane with the cavity batten system, and the same with the walls. Okay. The windows are arguably can be the same price, if you want it to.
[00:50:11] Linden: Yep.
[00:50:12] Matt: Insulation, if you're installing a 90 mil batten or a one, uh, a 140 batten, it should be the same price.
[00:50:20] Linden: Yes.
[00:50:20] Matt: So where does the cost go? Air tightness, the, 100% is there is an inherited cost in the air tightness, internal battening, 30 to f- 30 to 45 grand. 30, yep. Where is the, the cost difference?
[00:50:33] Linden: Well, it's, I guess where I was leaning with it was it's where you spend your money. So for me it was like, I want the Passive House building envelope, and the compromise ended up being that I build all the cabinetry, which is why the house is not finished yet.
[00:50:45] Matt: But even if we compare- You living in it?
[00:50:47] Hamish: Huh? Yeah. You living in it?
[00:50:48] Matt: So e- even, like even if, even if we- What's your relationship with your wife?
[00:50:52] Linden: Um, well- ... she would like cupboard doors.
[00:50:55] Matt: I'm now, I'm now single. Um, but if, if we- I'm now
[00:50:58] Hamish: sleeping out the back in
[00:50:59] Matt: a tent. No, so if [00:51:00] we... Yeah,
[00:51:01] Linden: build my own Passive House dog house.
[00:51:02] She very much appreciates Passive House, but would like cupboard doors. But,
[00:51:03] Matt: but-
[00:51:03] Hamish: Is your ventilation system on?
[00:51:05] Matt: Yes. Yeah. So but if, but even, okay, let's just compare this to then a standard build, and you'd use 90 mil walls-
[00:51:11] Linden: Yeah ...
[00:51:11] Matt: with the, what, the, the membrane and battening system on the outside should be the same.
[00:51:15] The windows shouldn't be really any different.
[00:51:18] Linden: Well, it- In, in this climate, they can be quite different. However, I bought Logic House windows- Yep ... for the same price that I could get single-glazed hardwood made here in Sydney. Um- And so- Was that
[00:51:34] Hamish: because Harley gave you a ripper deal, or is it-
[00:51:36] Linden: No, I-
[00:51:37] Matt: That's why I've seen Lyndon as the face of
[00:51:38] Linden: Logic House
[00:51:39] I met Harley in order to kind of, to do, put this order in. Like, I, I had no previous relationship with- Right. Okay, yeah ...
[00:51:48] Matt: with anyone in the passive house world. They're
[00:51:50] Linden: pretty good to deal with,
[00:51:51] Matt: aren't they? Are you using them on most- They're amazing. Yeah ... Are you using them on most of your projects?
[00:51:53] Linden: Um, we'd like to.
[00:51:54] We also work a lot with, with Kinsel, um, and do uPVC. Okay. Yeah, that must
[00:51:59] Matt: be, like,
[00:51:59] Hamish: a good- What [00:52:00] extrusion are they using?
[00:52:01] Linden: Uh, they're using the Aluplast. Yeah. Ideal. Are
[00:52:02] Matt: you- Yeah. So yeah, they, they offer quite a nice install
[00:52:03] Linden: service. Um- Okay.
[00:52:09] It's annoying when it's- Logic House, you know, offers a backup for something that's an imported product, so it's- But
[00:52:14] Matt: you look, it's- ... makes it possible ... Logic House, like I know Harley and Jason are over in Poland for the first time checking out their windows as we record this. But it's really crazy when you look at the raw cost of what it costs them to produce the windows over there, and then we've got to add on the shipping conversion fee, blah, blah, blah.
[00:52:28] It's, like, cheaper than, like, the crappiest windows you can get here. Yeah. And that's that, that... And that's the, like- It's because labor's cheaper, though. So this, so this is... Labor's the cost of a project, and I've said it before, that no one wants to talk about this, because we all want everyone to get paid well, so no one's willing to have the conversation around labor because of, "You just want to take away from the small people."
[00:52:49] They're like... A- and, and it's an awkward conversation, but the reality is, yeah, that's what's driving the project costs up, especially in Victoria. We've had the big build. Everyone's gone across there, earned [00:53:00] a huge wage for doing very, very little, and now they want to come back and earn the same amount.
[00:53:03] Hamish: You know what? I reckon one of the biggest problems is, and I've been in the industry for about 20 years now- I'm probably gonna annoy some people when I say this, work fucking faster. Like, I have seen a drop in intensity on site. Yeah,
[00:53:17] Matt: and
[00:53:17] Hamish: 100% agree. And I even see, you know, on some of our building sites, and, you know, maybe I'm gonna piss off some of my own team, like there is not the same intensity that's on site that I would've- We used to run
[00:53:27] that I experienced when I was- We used to run. And I'm, and, okay, and I'm not saying it needs to go back there, 'cause a lot of yelling, fucking hammers flying past your head and all that kind of stuff. I'm not saying we need to go there, but show up to work with intention and integrity, and do a good day's labor, and don't just clip your ticket.
[00:53:43] I think that's a big problem at the moment. Anyway, we're digressing. No, no, I- We're digressing a little bit
[00:53:48] Matt: there ... I, the amount of time I just see people on their phone just sitting there. Yeah. I'm like, "What are you doing?" They're like, "Messaging a mate." Why?
[00:53:54] Hamish: Anyway, we're, we're digressing from- Yeah, I,
[00:53:56] Linden: I can see where you're going with that, but I, I'm also like, you know, there's a, [00:54:00] there's a very...
[00:54:02] You know, most of the crews that we work with, you know, rain day isn't necessarily-
[00:54:08] Matt: Shut up shop ...
[00:54:09] Linden: that, that everyone's shut up shop. Most of them are out there with a raincoat on getting work done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're working-
[00:54:15] Hamish: Look, for, for, for any of my team that are listening, right, like you guys- You got a job opportunity at Carbon Construction
[00:54:20] you crack on, you're amazing. We, we, we- But I'm, I'm just saying, like, the... I've, I've, I go past some building sites and there's just no, no intensity.
[00:54:26] Matt: So the other thing that, and we don't talk about this, and- I don't wanna get canceled for saying this, but we also, if you go to somewhere, and again, I agree that everyone should get paid well.
[00:54:37] In Europe you'll typically have, like, the Romanians, the Polish that will come in, they'll work cheaper. In America, a lot of the Mexicans will migrate up. In Asia, labor's just cheap. We don't have that- The pressure. Yes We
[00:54:49] Hamish: don't have the upward
[00:54:50] Matt: pressure. We don't have... Yeah, we don't have the c- yeah, everyone's at a minimum wage base rate, which is perfect.
[00:54:55] It should be, but the problem is we don't have other people that will do it cheaper, [00:55:00] and that's... And t- and we, we removed all manufacturing 'cause we couldn't do that. We don't manufacture anything because we couldn't keep with the rates of everyone else in overseas countries. That's the reason we lost that.
[00:55:10] But we're never gonna have that luxury of h- uh, use luxury as a really loose term there, but, like, of that competition-
[00:55:18] Hamish: Yeah ... of
[00:55:18] Matt: labor rates. I,
[00:55:18] Hamish: I agree. No, no,
[00:55:19] Matt: I, I agree with this. And it's not, I don't mean that in a real negative way, the way I say that. I just, it's the reality. And I think sometimes I talk about reality.
[00:55:26] Yeah.
[00:55:26] Linden: Well, I think this is where we bring things back to retrofit and affordability and all of that sort of thing. Like, ultimately, when we're talking about the cost that we can do something at, a living wage for people in our industry now needs to include, you know, paying, paying rents that is equivalent, equivalent to what many pay in a mortgage.
[00:55:50] Um, and so your ability to save to have a mortgage is not there. When you go to get your insurance renewal each year, you're getting a [00:56:00] 30% or 40% premium increase, which is just stacking on, stacking on, stacking on, and that's happening every single year, and it's happening across every single aspect of a business.
[00:56:10] Matt: Oh, our insurance is ridiculous. Like, what's, what was our VMI insurance that Porter Davis went down and they doubled our rate? Yeah. And I, I, a $1.5 million project is roughly 20 grand in insurance straight off. Bang, gone. See you later.
[00:56:22] Hamish: I'd say it's more. If you're in, if you- More ... talking about contract works, too, it's more.
[00:56:26] Matt: I'd not think... That'd, that'd just be domestic building insurance- DBI, yeah ... and c- and contract work. Yeah That's it. Nothing else.
[00:56:30] Hamish: Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. I reckon it's more- But- If it's DBI and contract works, it'd be more than that.
[00:56:34] Linden: But that's something you guys are calculating inside your business overheads.
[00:56:39] Matt: Yeah.
[00:56:39] Linden: Whereas every single person that you're paying to be on the site- No,
[00:56:42] Hamish: that's
[00:56:42] Linden: coms. We, we- ... has to get, has to get themselves You know, ha- has to feed, clothe, and shelter, and they have to get themselves to and from work, and all of their costs are becoming so high-
[00:56:56] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I- The system's gonna break.
[00:56:57] Something's gonna break ... look, I, I, I, I hear exactly what you're [00:57:00] saying. Yeah. And, and the thing is I, I, I would love that, you know, that everyone just gets paid really well and what they wanna get paid. I'd love that, but that's not how a free market economy works.
[00:57:10] Linden: It's not how a free market economy works, but it's where we should be targeting things like retrofit.
[00:57:14] Like, the, the biggest difference between a three-story walk-up apartment block and one of the very new ones that we're looking at through here out the window, um, which is, you know, your very typical Sydney apartment block at the moment, um- Ugly ... is the size. And it's, it's a, you know- A three-story walk-up apartment is, is relatively tiny.
[00:57:41] It is only what you need to live in. And- Is that a good or bad thing? ... it suits a, it suits a massive need for, like, there are so many people that they would just be delighted to have that one bedroom, um, or even a studio that's their own and not have to [00:58:00] share. And, like, that, we can't build buildings that small anymore.
[00:58:05] The code- Mm ... does not allow us to do that. And-
[00:58:08] Matt: So you're saying we have made an error there in the code?
[00:58:11] Linden: Well, there's a, there's an error in the code, but there's also in the perceived, the perception about what it is that is valuable. So, you know, when we're talking about single houses, you know, banks are interested in funding houses that are kind of 250 to 320 square meters.
[00:58:29] I'm interested in designing houses that are somewhere between 100 and, say, 160 square meters for a family home.
[00:58:36] Matt: Yep.
[00:58:37] Linden: That's, that's- Which is enough ... kind of- That's enough. It's enough.
[00:58:39] Matt: That's
[00:58:39] Linden: enough.
[00:58:39] Matt: But the banks want 300 square meters.
[00:58:42] Linden: Yeah. Once I design that small house, one of the questions they ask is, "Why is it so small?"
[00:58:48] Matt: I
[00:58:48] Linden: hate banks. And it's, it's the perception that it's a higher risk to plug that house in a fire sale-
[00:58:54] Matt: After they've just
[00:58:55] Linden: made- ... because it's small ...
[00:58:56] Matt: billions and billions and billions. Right?
[00:58:58] Linden: Yeah, and it, it's, like, tho- [00:59:00] those sort of things, it's the same thing happens in the apartment world where it's, like, the market perception is that we want two-bedroom apartments.
[00:59:06] We build huge amounts of, in New South Wales, it's a minimum of, I believe, 70 square meters for a two, two-bedroom apartment. Um-
[00:59:15] Matt: So you can't have a one-bedroom apartment in Sydney?
[00:59:17] Linden: You can have a one-bedroom apartment- Okay ... but there's, there's minimum apartment sizes. Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:20] Matt: Okay.
[00:59:21] Linden: And so we, we are forcing people to build a space that I think is probably too many square meters, and that's driving up the cost-
[00:59:31] Hamish: Mm
[00:59:32] Linden: of delivering these homes.
[00:59:34] Hamish: And, and, and, um, you're losing an opportunity of getting more in there.
[00:59:38] Linden: You're losing the opportunity of getting more, but you're also, there are so many other layers to that business choice about what it is that you're gonna build. Like, in Singapore, it's pretty normal to have five-bedroom apartments.
[00:59:49] Um, in Australia it's usually twos, maybe threes. Um, if you're needing a four or a five, you're probably, you know, [01:00:00] heading for a house, and the perception is that you might not have been successful 'cause you bought an apartment for that size.
[01:00:06] Hamish: Yeah. Okay.
[01:00:08] Linden: And that,
[01:00:08] Hamish: that's a- Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yep.
[01:00:09] Linden: This is where- Yep ... market perception and costs of things get conflated with what people need and enough, and that's where I would like to see the conversation change. And- I think new builds should be allowed to build smaller. We should have ways of having more variety in apartment size. But retrofit, to me, is a really good way of demonstrating that to everyone, because if we can retrofit a few, you know, not
[01:00:42] likable or apartments that people wouldn't otherwise want, and we can turn them into something that's really, really good by getting the energy performance sorted out and doing a few nice changes inside, um, that are very, very modest, then I actually [01:01:00] think we've then got a flagship project saying, "Hey, actually, it's not the size of these apartments that's the problem.
[01:01:04] It's, it's the way that we perceive what is enough."
[01:01:08] Hamish: Yeah. It's
[01:01:10] Matt: a really interesting conversation, that.
[01:01:12] Hamish: I, I, I, I'd like to sit in this for another podcast because I think there is an interest... There, there's a, there's a problem that needs to be solved, and I think Liam from Hip First Hype is, is certainly exploring it with Park Life- Yeah
[01:01:25] 'cause I'm pretty sure there's one-bedroom apartments in there. But banks just- Correct me if
[01:01:29] Matt: I'm wrong ... uh, what I hate about banks so much is interest rates go up, they pass it on the next day. But when they go down, oh, it takes us 30 days to work it out. Come on, guys. Isn't that fucking stupid?
[01:01:38] Hamish: Well, no, we, I mean, we've seen it with the, in the fuel- I-
[01:01:40] in the, in the bowser right now. Like- Yeah. They
[01:01:42] Matt: ain't dropping any of
[01:01:44] Hamish: the time. No.
[01:01:45] Matt: And I, and, and all this money, all this going up is, it's incentive. The government are incentivized for it to go up. They make more money as things become more expensive on GST alone. It's, at the moment, let's use fuel right now.
[01:01:57] It's gone up a dollar. They just made 10 cents extra per liter [01:02:00] instantly on GST. Think how many liters of petrol they just are selling
[01:02:05] Linden: You know, I think the more worrying-
[01:02:07] Matt: I think it- ...
[01:02:08] Linden: discussion is that, you know, transport industry today is claiming that, um, they're gonna go bust if they can't pass that cost on, which is quite probably true, but the people they want to pass it on to is Coles and Woolworths, and that then just translates to the inflation that we just got an interest rate rise to stop.
[01:02:28] Yeah. So, yeah.
[01:02:29] Matt: The only way, the only way, the only way, honestly, and this is where... And the only way that inflation goes down is unemployment, and that's where AI will probably kick in. Like, that- that's, that's the other key metric that we look at, is, uh, employment rate. If employment rate goes up, unemployment rate goes up, inflation drops.
[01:02:44] Yeah. The reality is, if y- you've got to be rich to build. You've got to be rich to buy a home. Like, can we just accept that now
[01:02:50] Hamish: and- And do you know what? If you've got money, it doesn't matter. If you've got, if you're- Yeah ... if you're cash funding, it doesn't matter.
[01:02:53] Matt: I, I, I understand that not everyone's in that situation.
[01:02:55] Like, I totally respect it, but it's reality. And I think too often we sit here, "Oh, [01:03:00] we wish every, uh, Passive House was affordable for everyone." Like, so do I, but we sit here, and I build for clients with over a million dollars, you design for cle- clients over a million dollars. We all want the bigger projects because it makes our life easier.
[01:03:12] We want rich clients. Can we just say that and move on the conversation?
[01:03:16] Linden: Well, that comes back to the way that Passive House tends to evolve in the, in the market. So, you know, the, the first wave of Passive House is almost always expensive houses for rich people.
[01:03:31] Hamish: Yeah.
[01:03:32] Linden: And, and it's a, it is an unattainable something for quite a while.
[01:03:38] The next wave then is starting to look at, um, social and affordable housing usually.
[01:03:46] Matt: Yeah.
[01:03:46] Linden: And it's retrofit of buildings, and so, you know, the US, Europe, the UK, they've all had funding models that are tied to measurable improvement of buildings. And- [01:04:00] Passive house has been used as a measure for that. And, you know, retrofit codes like the fires retrofit code take into account other things like building resilience, how long can you stay in your house, um, without, without power supply on, and, you know, can you last out some pretty extreme conditions for six or eight weeks?
[01:04:23] Um, they also have a, a lens on embodied carbon with that. So it's, you know, there's breadth in there that ticks funding or political objective or policy objective, and that's where the market grows, and it, it actually opens up to a much larger cohort of people. Um, and I would argue that making that happen in Australia right now is, is a critical thing because-
[01:04:49] Matt: Big, huge shift in politics
[01:04:50] Linden: we are knocking down a whole lot of, of the smaller, older homes that are more accessible to most people. And it, uh, again, I don't [01:05:00] quite know the debate down in Victoria quite the way that I do know it up here. Um, but up here we're starting to see councils say, "Hey, you can't actually knock down a block of flats and put less, more luxury apartments on.
[01:05:12] You've got to, you've got to keep the numbers."
[01:05:14] Matt: Yeah, right. Um- Our councils and politicians
[01:05:16] Hamish: are outdated down in Melbourne.
[01:05:18] Linden: Yeah. So that- ... will lead to the idea that we're actually gonna have to try and fix some of the ones that we've got, and, uh, it should strand from- Yeah ... a development point of view, a few of these buildings.
[01:05:27] Hamish: I, I think if you're a designer, architect, a builder, chippy, trades person, the existing buildings provide probably the single biggest opportunity for us in the next 10 years.
[01:05:37] Matt: 80% of my inquiries right now, retrofits.
[01:05:39] Hamish: Oh, yeah, yeah. At least. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
[01:05:41] Matt: Um, we're gonna wrap this up.
[01:05:45] I've got a question for you here. You've spent some time, all your own time, is it modeling and helping some commercial buildings or something like that?
[01:05:52] Linden: Um, look, I, for the Passive House conference a couple of years ago, Alexander Symes Architects and- Yep ... um, my office teamed [01:06:00] up together to do a conference presentation, and-
[01:06:03] Hamish: Was that when you were, like, sick as a dog?
[01:06:05] Linden: I was sick as a dog. I remem-
[01:06:06] Hamish: Oh. I remember sitting next to you.
[01:06:08] Matt: Were you sick, Steve? 'Cause you were sitting down the whole time.
[01:06:11] Hamish: Yeah, I remember sitting next to you- And I didn't... I was trying to work out why everyone was standing up. I'm sitting next to you, and I'm like, "He is rubbish." And there was a massive COVID outbreak at that- Oh
[01:06:17] uh, conference. Was it you? Were you, were you, were you patient one?
[01:06:20] Linden: I, I believe that there were others who were well and truly down the track of, of being COVID positive, but I, I did come home with COVID. Yeah. And I also did have, um, a walking pneumonia as well, so I was- Oh, wow ... I was, um-
[01:06:33] Hamish: Yeah, you, you were- Oh
[01:06:36] not particularly well. Makes, makes, makes- Good on, good on, good on you for, like, battling through that- Alex is- ... 'cause I was watching you, and you're like, you are battling right now.
[01:06:42] Matt: I, I like Alex. Alex, I met him properly at the, it was the Sustainability Awards. Uh, when was it? In December. He was one of the few that stayed at...
[01:06:51] Dan forced out to 3:00, 4:00 AM in the morning. Oh. But Alex a nice guy.
[01:06:55] Linden: He's fantastic. A- and he- I'm lucky enough to share a desk with him, so, um- Oh, are you sharing? Yeah ... our offices are [01:07:00] co-located, and-
[01:07:00] Matt: Oh, he, he's a
[01:07:02] Linden: re- ... we work together a, a lot ...
[01:07:02] Matt: he's a, I really like Alex. Um, my final question before we head to our Mindful Moment, would it just be easy not to care about this stuff and just do what you want?
[01:07:12] Linden: Um, yes. But- All right, move on ... I think I'd get very, very bored. I don't know. No, I
[01:07:18] Hamish: agree. Yeah.
[01:07:19] Linden: I totally, I totally agree with you. The, the conversations that open up through all of this with people like yourselves, so you guys actually lead this conversation in a sector where i- it, you know, I'd say a higher majority of people choose not to care.
[01:07:36] Matt: Yep.
[01:07:36] Linden: Um, and I think you bring people along very, very well. And-
[01:07:42] Matt: Thank you ...
[01:07:44] Linden: for me, it would be very easy to sort of sit in my ivory tower as an architect and say, "That's a builder thing." And, um- That would be to my detriment because, you know, the, [01:08:00] the learning and engagement that we get through working with everybody who's on the process, like the...
[01:08:07] You know, the, the difference between going to an architect's conference and going to a Passive House conference-
[01:08:13] Matt: Tell me ...
[01:08:13] Linden: is, is massive. Like, we- there's a whole lot missed by not having that multidisciplinary approach. Yeah,
[01:08:22] Matt: agree.
[01:08:23] Linden: And there's a whole lot missed by talking at a particular level that excludes a whole bunch of people from the conversation.
[01:08:30] Hamish: Yep.
[01:08:31] Linden: Um, it's, it's keeping it simple. Yep. It's, it's bringing people along.
[01:08:35] Hamish: Yep.
[01:08:37] Matt: Mindful Moment?
[01:08:38] Hamish: Mindful Moment, yep. So one of our sponsors is MEGT. MEGT are Australia's best and biggest, uh, apprentice provider, and they are one of our fantastic sponsors. The whole idea of this, the MEGT Mindful Moment is to kinda, like, focus in on apprentice- apprentices and trainees, uh, or people looking at getting into the [01:09:00] industry, and maybe giving them, like, a little tidbit on how they can better educate themselves.
[01:09:05] Um, now you talk about, um, social affordability and the importance of retrofitting buildings, which I have a huge passion for. I think it's certainly something that we need to be focusing a lot of energy on. Where can, uh, we direct our young, up-and-coming leaders in the industry to learn more about this kinda stuff?
[01:09:28] Linden: Well, the thing about our young up-and-coming leaders are that they haven't got a preconceived view about how they're gonna tackle something or what does and doesn't work. And so they are actually our most capable thinkers about how we might try something slightly different. Yeah,
[01:09:44] Hamish: they're not tarnished yet, are they?
[01:09:45] Linden: That's right.
[01:09:46] Hamish: Yeah.
[01:09:46] Linden: Okay, great point. There's, there's not that kind of jaded side to it.
[01:09:50] Matt: You haven't worked the world out yet. You're still positive.
[01:09:51] Linden: Yeah. And so the worst thing that we can do is get them on site, give them their tools, and a job to [01:10:00] do, and then not talk to them, um, or invite their ideas about how you could do things.
[01:10:08] And so it's, it's actually about how we make sure that in between getting the work done and being efficient, we are also going, you know, "What do you think about how we tackled this? Could we do this a slightly different way next time?" And yeah, I, I think we get our biggest gains that way. It's certainly played out in my office with, with, um, having, um, staff that are not fully fledged yet, and it's a...
[01:10:39] Like, I've got a fantastic team.
[01:10:41] Hamish: Do you know, just, uh, that's just sparked something in my brain. Like, not only are, one, you're encouraging them to be included, but you're also encouraging them just to speak up and be free and, and... 'Cause you- you're absolutely right. There's probably something that you're gonna learn from a graduate or an [01:11:00] intern that you just wouldn't have seen, 'cause you're just always looking- Mm-hmm
[01:11:03] you know, with blinkers on, and they're there kind of looking at this big beautiful open world.
[01:11:07] Linden: Yeah.
[01:11:08] Hamish: Um, I'm gonna t- I'm gonna take this away. This, this is not, this is a Hamish MGED Marvel moment now. I'm gonna certainly apply this in my business now, for sure.
[01:11:16] Matt: Lyndon, anyone wanting to build or des- or design with you, how do they get onto you?
[01:11:22] Linden: Um, look, we are, we're on the world wide web, um, lyndonthorley.com.au. Um, Insta,
[01:11:32] LinkedIn are other ways to, to get a hold of
[01:11:34] Hamish: us. And
[01:11:34] Linden: speaking at this
[01:11:35] Hamish: year's Passive House Conference again.
[01:11:37] Linden: Yes. We've got, um... Yeah, Passive House Conference, I'm speaking alongside Trent Clark, um-
[01:11:43] Hamish: Oh, from Red Cedar ...
[01:11:43] Linden: from Red Cedar Constructions. Yep, awesome. Um, we have done several projects together and ECI processes, so it's- Yep.
[01:11:50] Make
[01:11:50] Matt: sure you don't get the flu.
[01:11:52] Linden: Good chance to, to kind of talk, yes. It doesn't matter this year. Doesn't matter this year. You can hand it over to him. Be
[01:11:57] Matt: like, "I'm sick, mate. All yours."
[01:11:59] Linden: That's right. [01:12:00] All
[01:12:00] Matt: right. Thank you very much. Thanks, Lyndon. Thank you. Cheers, mate. See ya. Awesome.