The Estimating Mistake That Costs You Thousands

“You’re at the mercy of the quality of the 2D plans.”

Tom from Vision 2 Estimating (V2E) said that early, and it pretty much sums up the whole problem. If your estimate lives and dies by a set of drawings that don’t show enough, don’t match how you build, or leave key details to “figure out later”, then you’re not really estimating. You’re guessing. And guessing is expensive.

This conversation was a proper reality check on how builders price work in 2026. The old way of estimating was never built for the level of detail, compliance, and client expectation we’re dealing with now. It’s not that builders are careless. It’s that 2D-only estimating has a ceiling, and most of us are hitting it.

Why 3D matters (even if the architect “has a model”)

The first pushback we hear all the time is, “Why do we need 3D? The architect already has it.”

Tom explained it in a way that makes it hard to argue with. Builders don’t always get a usable model. Sometimes you get a PDF set and a few elevations that look fine until you’re on site trying to work out what’s actually happening at a junction. And even when you do get a model, it’s not always built the way you build.

That’s the point. 3D modelling for estimating is not about pretty pictures. It’s about seeing what the drawings are not showing you. Because the stuff that costs you money is rarely the big obvious items. It’s the missing cladding return. The overlooked area. The detail that wasn’t clear in 2D. The “we’ll figure it out later” that turns into a variation you can’t charge for.

The cost of missing one detail

Tom gave examples that every builder will recognise. You think you’ve allowed for the right scope, then you realise you’ve missed something basic because the elevations didn’t make it obvious. Or the design intent wasn’t clear. Or the detail wasn’t documented properly.

That’s how margins die. Not in one dramatic moment. In a thousand small oversights.

A proper 3D-based take-off forces the build to be visualised properly before you start. It makes the estimate match reality. And when your estimate matches reality, you stop paying for other people’s ambiguity.

Your “builder DNA” is the whole game

One of the best concepts from the chat was what Tom called a builder’s DNA.

Every builder has a way they build. Preferred details. Standard inclusions. The way you frame, wrap, flash, finish. The sequencing. The products you trust. The things you do every time because you know they work.

V2E’s approach is to model and estimate based on your DNA, not a generic version of the project. That matters because a generic estimate might be technically correct, but still wrong for your business. If the estimate doesn’t reflect how you actually build on site, it will never line up with your real costs.

Tech that makes estimating less painful

We also talked about the tools that are making this whole process faster and cleaner. Tom mentioned PlusSpec (a SketchUp plugin) and how it helps turn plans into usable 3D models and BOQs. Then you’ve got platforms like Wonderbuild that help track costs and keep everything connected, instead of living in a spreadsheet that no one trusts.

This is the shift. Estimating is becoming part of a connected system, not a one-off task you do under pressure and hope for the best.

“It costs money” is not a reason

Yes, better estimating costs money. But so does underquoting. So does rework. So does absorbing scope because you didn’t see it early enough. So does spending your nights trying to patch a budget that was never right in the first place.

If you charge properly for pre-construction and you do the work upfront, you protect the client and you protect yourself. You reduce surprises. You reduce conflict. And you stop building jobs where the only person taking the risk is you.

This episode wasn’t about software. It was about responsibility.

If you want better projects, better margins, and a smoother build process, your estimating has to evolve. 2D-only estimating might have worked when houses were simpler and expectations were lower. That is not the world we’re in now.

Tom’s work is a reminder that pricing and building should not be two separate universes. The closer your estimate is to how you actually build, the less chaos you carry into construction. And the more likely you are to finish a job feeling proud, not bruised.help.

LINKS:

Connect with Tom:

• Website: https://www.v2e.com.au/

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• FULL TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Hamish: Welcome back to, uh, the Pro Clima Build to Last studio. Today, we are recording from Jackson from Enduro Builders, certified Passive House. So we've got Tom here from Bluebeam. 

  [00:00:16] Matt: Yeah. Great Not Building... Sorry, get it right. It's Buildxact. 

  [00:00:18] Hamish: Sorry, Buildxact. 

  [00:00:21] Matt: Sorry. Said 

  [00:00:21] Tom: that 

  [00:00:22] Matt: one last 

  [00:00:22] Hamish: week. So here we 

  [00:00:23] Matt: go. This is our third podcast.

  [00:00:27] Yeah. Amish and I have been up since 4:00. Yeah. We're fucking 

  [00:00:27] Hamish: tired. Right. So we're, we're all about modeling. We're all about modeling. You know, if you're not doing modeling in some fashion in your business right now and you're a builder, you're getting pretty quickly, um, left behind. I'm gonna hand ball over.

  [00:00:39] Tom, introduce yourself, why you're sitting here. Mm-hmm. What do you guys 

  [00:00:43] Matt: do? Why are you sitting here? 

  [00:00:45] Tom: Um, I'm sitting here because, number one, this is the day you're in Adelaide, and- ... I could come and do this with you. Yeah. Yes. That's probably reason number one. Yeah. 

  [00:00:53] Hamish: And, and we're really struggling to get podcast guests.

  [00:00:56] Scrape the bottom of 

  [00:00:57] Tom: the barrel for guests. Who else was here? So... Yeah, [00:01:00] like... Yeah. Um- And 

  [00:01:01] Hamish: Luke Kelly wasn't here, so we got Tom. 

  [00:01:03] Tom: Luke Kelly wasn't here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, y- Um, uh, I'm Tom Lawson, and I am general manager of Vision 2 Estimating. Um, we are a construction modeling and estimating service. Um, and we like to draw models for builders, and probably the better way to think about it is we like to help solve problems for builders.

  [00:01:25] Matt: Yeah. So why would I estimate in 3D when the architect's already drawn the project? Why wouldn't you just do 2D? Because the architecture should 

  [00:01:34] Hamish: tell us- Could you just answer this question for any architect asking that question, why are you getting it modeled again when we've already got the model? Can you just please- That's my question, yeah

  [00:01:43] tell the reason why- 

  [00:01:44] Tom: Mm ... 

  [00:01:44] Hamish: we're doing this. 

  [00:01:44] Tom: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So there's probably two answers to that question, one that's a blunt answer to match Matt's blunt response. Go the blunt. Just go, just 

  [00:01:53] Matt: go the blunt answer. Yeah, 

  [00:01:56] Tom: yeah, yeah. That's fine. Um, so- And then soften it. Yeah, yeah. And then soften it. 

  [00:01:57] Matt: I'll soften it.

  [00:01:57] I'll soft- Go- Try the... I'll soften it ... I think[00:02:00] 

  [00:02:02] Hamish has already four times gone, "Oh, Matt." 

  [00:02:03] Hamish: I'll smoo- I'll smooth it over after you guys have just slapped everyone across the face with it. So go. You can

  [00:02:14] Tom: do your, "No, no." Wait till you have the follow-up podcast. Um, so the 2D, 3D thing, especially if architects have already modeled it in 3D, um, you get del- you don't necessarily get it delivered to you in 3D. So some architects might be able- Yeah ... to deliver you an IFC or a- BIMX ... some type of model. BIMX, something like that.

  [00:02:26] But a lot of these, um, those programs, you either have to know what you're doing, how to drive it, to be able to get the right data out of it kind of thing. 

  [00:02:35] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:02:36] Tom: The other downside with, um, modeling is there's like... there's three or four big, um, modeling softwares, right? So CAD, SketchUp, Revit, Archicad, um, things like that, but nobody draws the same way.

  [00:02:51] So one architect's gonna have their Archicad layering line tool, that kind of stuff, set up differently to another, um, architect. So there's no [00:03:00] easy plug-and-play to be able to go, like, right, let's get this done. Oh, that's not a bad thing 

  [00:03:02] Matt: because builders, we build differently. Correct. Even Hamish and I, who are similar, build differently.

  [00:03:06] Yeah. 

  [00:03:06] Tom: Exactly. It's not a bad thing. However, what they do is we're all have accepted that we can turn a 3D file into a 2D file, 2D plans, to be able to give you guys. And so then comes to you, you've got to do a quote, you've got to do an estimate, um, even just a take-off of 2D, and you just... you can't see everything in 2D.

  [00:03:24] So one of the sayings I say is, like, the downside of you guys having to get given 2D plans to measure from is you're at the mercy of the quality of the 2D plans that you're given. So, um, I always like to think of the... You know, say you had like a rectangle shaped house kind of thing, and modern barn style house is pretty popular at the moment, right?

  [00:03:46] So long rectangle, gable roof, and then they might have an inlet porch. More often than not, I've found that, number one, there won't be any ele- elev- any elevations that show those inlet walls. Yeah. Yeah. Number two, they'll be the three walls that [00:04:00] have, like, a different, more expensive cladding- Cladding on it

  [00:04:02] or finish it, the easement. Yeah, yeah. And number three, they will be the three walls that you will miss when you're trying to measure- Yeah ... because you can't see it anywhere. 

  [00:04:08] Matt: That's why I've always asked clients for their 3D model- ... or the I- eye- Yeah ... yeah, the- 

  [00:04:12] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:04:13] Matt: the, especially BIMX file, like, we can see it.

  [00:04:15] And even on the- You know what- ... plane today, I was driving around one. 

  [00:04:16] Tom: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:04:17] Hamish: Guilty, guilty of missing the inlet- 

  [00:04:19] Matt: Oh, 

  [00:04:20] Hamish: how- ... cladding. 

  [00:04:20] Tom: Yeah. '

  [00:04:21] Hamish: Cause I literally have missed the cladding- Yeah, yeah ... on a instep 

  [00:04:25] Matt: like this gable. If you've, if you're a builder and you haven't done it 

  [00:04:30] Tom: before. Oh, totally. Yeah. 

  [00:04:30] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:04:31] Tom: Yeah.

  [00:04:31] It's like, it's the one, the three walls are gonna have, like, spotted gum cladding on instead of, like, coral or something like that- Yeah. ... kind of thing, so. 

  [00:04:38] Hamish: We- Okay, just for the record, we haven't talked about this before. Oh, no. No. But the cladding that I missed was spotted gum cladding. Spotted gum. But luckily, luckily it was only a, a 600D- Yeah, yeah, yeah

  [00:04:48] like, overhang, so it wasn't massive- Yeah ... but it was on the- Still. 

  [00:04:50] Tom: But still. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So that's one question about modeling, 3D, why would we estimate in 3D, not in 2D. To answer why would we [00:05:00] redraw it, so the other part to it is, like, architects are great at being architects, which is probably a fair statement, right?

  [00:05:08] Hamish: And- I think they're really good at being architects 

  [00:05:09] Tom: Yeah. Me too. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a pretty fair comment. 

  [00:05:11] Matt: Why are you looking at me? 

  [00:05:12] Tom: Could we say- You want, 

  [00:05:13] Matt: you want a reaction out of me, do you? Yeah, 

  [00:05:14] Tom: I do. Could we say the same thing, that engineers are good at being engineers? Yep. Great. 

  [00:05:21] Matt: Yep.

  [00:05:21] Tom: Architects are probably not gonna be great at being engineers, right? Yep. An engineer's not gonna be great at doing architects, which means everybody's good at doing their own thing. 

  [00:05:29] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:05:30] Tom: Builders- 

  [00:05:31] Matt: Not good at anything. 

  [00:05:32] Tom: No, I didn't say that. Builders are really good at doing their best at- 

  [00:05:40] Matt: Buying a boat-

  [00:05:42] once they just got paid from a lock-up payment. 

  [00:05:44] Tom: That's right. Um, at grabbing all of the sets of documents that have been done by that industry professional and trying to interpret it to make sure it all works. Yep. Yeah. Because ultimately you guys gotta deliver it, right? Yep. So- This is where we come in, [00:06:00] where an architect to some degree is going to draw engineering back into their plans depending on- 

  [00:06:05] Matt: They should

  [00:06:06] Tom: yeah, things like that. But- If you're not 

  [00:06:06] Matt: putting engineering back in, come on, that's a- 

  [00:06:09] Tom: I know, but it doesn't always happen. 

  [00:06:10] Matt: Really? So, yeah, yeah. Maybe, yeah. Uh, all, I- even the worst architects I've worked with have done it. 

  [00:06:15] Tom: Yeah. But, uh, not everyone works with architects. Rust people probably- Yeah ... don't go to that level.

  [00:06:19] Matt: Yeah, okay. Fair point. And so- Yeah, no, that's a fair point ... 

  [00:06:21] Tom: you're in a rural area and you don't have access to architects- Yep, yep ... that's good with. Great point. Great point. Same thing. Yep. And so, and same thing, engineers are not necessarily going to think about the- Looks ... architectural- 

  [00:06:32] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:06:32] Tom: yeah, looks- Had that happen many times

  [00:06:34] yeah, how does this fit- 

  [00:06:35] Hamish: Yep ... 

  [00:06:35] Tom: before they think about structural analysis. Yep. 

  [00:06:38] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:06:38] Tom: So everyone's doing the right thing by what their scope is, but it's just, it's hard for you guys to make it all come together. Yep. Yeah. So, so modeling in 3D, but thinking about it from a construction 3D point is going, well, how do we take all of those things and put them into the one model- 

  [00:06:54] Hamish: Yep

  [00:06:54] Tom: is where we come in. 

  [00:06:55] Hamish: And then I think one of the, one of the really good things, well, a comment that you made before, Matt, that every [00:07:00] builder builds differently. 

  [00:07:01] Tom: Mm. 

  [00:07:01] Hamish: What separates you guys from everyone is that before you start modeling, say for Sanctum Homes- Mm-hmm ... we're gonna sit down and you're gonna really try to understand our DNA.

  [00:07:10] Tom: Correct. 

  [00:07:10] Hamish: Could you please maybe just, 'cause I know what that means. 

  [00:07:12] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:07:12] Hamish: Can you maybe explain to listeners what that actually means? 

  [00:07:15] Tom: Yeah. So to me, a builder's DNA is, like, the thing that makes you unique because, so a finished product to a homeowner, so I give you a set of plans, I give you a set of plans, you both build a house.

  [00:07:27] Once it's clad, painted, landscaping, to a homeowner, it's probably gonna look like the same house, right? But what's gone on behind the walls, how it's built, how your company's run is completely different. Yeah. 

  [00:07:38] Matt: I'd be more airtight than Hamish. Probably. 

  [00:07:40] Tom: More, I reckon. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. 

  [00:07:43] Matt: Yeah. Yep. Sorry. 

  [00:07:44] Tom: No, that's fine.

  [00:07:45] You guys can sort that one out. Um, so i- it's all that stuff that affects how you're gonna build it. Yeah. But it's not just materials or, you know, like Matt might use treated battens, you might use untreated battens. Yep. 

  [00:07:58] Matt: Oh, don't go down that rabbit [00:08:00] hole. 

  [00:08:00] Hamish: Yeah, but this is, this is really- No. This is really good stuff to know though.

  [00:08:03] Yeah. This is, because it makes a difference. It 

  [00:08:05] Tom: is. It makes a difference. Yeah. Because it's, but it's not just limited to material selection. It's, it's things like, um, you know, do you run a big carpentry crew- Yep ... or do you just br- bring in carpentry teams- Yeah ... to do it for you? Yeah. That's gonna affect- 

  [00:08:18] Matt: Well, all our overheads are slightly different.

  [00:08:20] Yep, 

  [00:08:20] Tom: correct. 

  [00:08:20] Hamish: Yeah. That's right. 'Cause you, 'cause, yeah, so to confirm, you guys just don't do the modeling, you can also apply rates. 

  [00:08:26] Tom: Well, so our thing is, so not necessarily rates in terms of pricing. So this is another big thing about, um, estimating in general. A massive believer in that, like, builders should own their own pricing- 

  [00:08:38] Matt: Yep

  [00:08:38] Tom: kind of thing. 

  [00:08:38] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:08:39] Tom: Because- What you buy for is gonna be different to what- Yeah ... the next builder's gonna buy for 

  [00:08:43] Matt: Can I give you feedback on that? Sure. Because I originally spoke to you- Mm ... three years ago? 

  [00:08:48] Tom: Probably. 

  [00:08:48] Matt: Yeah, three, four years ago, and I went down the road of working with an estimator instead- Mm

  [00:08:52] because you didn't give the rates. Yeah. Four years on, I now agree with you. Yeah. I actually 100%, uh, [00:09:00] that was probably what I, what reason I didn't work with you- Yeah ... 'cause I was like, well, I wanted, I expected that information. Yeah, pricing, yeah. But I actually think there's a reason and valid reason behind not giving us the rates, because you, Hamish might have a better buying power than I do for my 1945.

  [00:09:12] Yeah. And that means we're different. 

  [00:09:14] Tom: Yep, 100%. 

  [00:09:16] Hamish: And- And we're, and we're gonna get to price file in a second. Yeah. Or at some point soon, because- Sure ... um, I'm just gonna chuck it out there, 'cause that's probably the one of the, the most important things. Because the model's one thing- 

  [00:09:25] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:09:25] Hamish: it's then how do we price 

  [00:09:27] Matt: it, right?

  [00:09:27] So you- Can, can we just, I just wanna stop for two seconds though, for, like, I... Are you an estimator from back- by background? Like, how'd you- 

  [00:09:34] Tom: Do you want me to tell you how I got into this? 

  [00:09:34] Matt: Yeah, that's what I want to... Like, I think it's good to understand how you got this knowledge. 

  [00:09:37] Tom: Kinda got to know some people and then ended up in 

  [00:09:40] Matt: this.

  [00:09:40] Is that it? 

  [00:09:40] Tom: No, no, I'm just kidding. That's normally like when you get- 

  [00:09:43] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:09:43] Tom: into things- Yeah ... that's normally the lead in, so, um, so brief background, I thought I wanted to be an engineer After a year of uni, found out I didn't wanna be an engineer. 

  [00:09:54] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:09:55] Tom: Um, and then I thought I wanted to be an architect, and then a year of architecture, found out I didn't wanna be an [00:10:00] architect pretty quickly.

  [00:10:01] But I liked somewhere in between. Yeah. Somewhere in between structural- 

  [00:10:06] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:10:06] Tom: and design. So, uh, architecture, first-year architecture, you do a subject called representation. 

  [00:10:12] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:10:13] Tom: Or when I was at Adelaide Uni, is what we did. And that was very much, um, you know- Did you 

  [00:10:18] Matt: wear a turtleneck? 

  [00:10:19] Tom: I didn't wear a turtleneck, no.

  [00:10:20] I was from the country- ... so I probably wore f- like Rossi boots and these dirty jeans and stuff like that. Um, uh, it was very much like, "Why is this column round? Why have you placed it here, not there?" Yeah, 

  [00:10:34] Matt: yeah. "

  [00:10:34] Tom: What's the finish?" Those kind of things. And my answers were always like, "Well, the column's there because if it's not there, the roof's gonna fall down."

  [00:10:41] And, like, it's- The com- 

  [00:10:42] Matt: common sense ... 

  [00:10:43] Tom: yeah, you know what I mean? Like, and it's there because that's the logical place to put it. I don't really care what it looks like, kind of thing. But I also realised I didn't really wanna sit there and do, like, engineering calc's for the rest of my life kind of thing either.

  [00:10:55] Yeah. So found myself into, um, working as a [00:11:00] frame and truss designer as well. Oh. Because it's kind of in between, because what we would do is take plans and figure out how to design trusses in 3D and wall frames around plans- Yeah ... but we're also doing the engineering design for it. So- Yeah ... something that's different South Australia versus, um, Victoria for you guys is, um, uh, truss designers or timber frame estimators, timber systems designers, what they're called now, do structural design and bracing design.

  [00:11:25] The engineer only really does steel and concrete design. 

  [00:11:28] Hamish: Yeah. Oh. 

  [00:11:29] Tom: Um, yeah, so- 

  [00:11:31] Hamish: It's, it's same in Victoria. They, uh, t- so you might get a circle on the plan saying, "Trusses as per manufacturer's design" or, or- Yeah ... or, or something like that. 

  [00:11:39] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:11:39] Hamish: So you'll still need the r- reg 126 from- Oh, yeah ... the 

  [00:11:42] Matt: truss manufacturer.

  [00:11:42] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

  [00:11:43] Tom: But we will do it for stick building frame as well. Okay. Not just pre-manufactured. Cool. Yep. So- 

  [00:11:48] Matt: Yeah, so you do the bracing for the wall fra- you're practically timber- Yeah ... and the other's concrete, steel. 

  [00:11:52] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:11:52] Tom: Yep, pretty much. That's how it works. Yeah. So, um, so- There's a big process of going, and, and especially because South Australia's a very big [00:12:00] stick-built market kind of thing.

  [00:12:01] Like, there's only probably in the last couple of years has there been heavy, um, pre-nail wall frames come in as well. Lots of truss roofs and then stick-build all the walls. Yeah. Yeah, stuff like that. So the 

  [00:12:11] Hamish: process- Which is my, usually my preference as well. I like it in the house. Yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:12:12] Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  [00:12:13] Yeah. Um, it's a good way to build. So, um, process would be, you know, plans come in, you do your truss designs, 'cause then you know, go to locations, low points. Yep. H- hand over to a timber framing designer. They design lintels and bracing, and at the end of it they give you a cutting list that you can then get a quote from and order from.

  [00:12:30] Right? And so at the framing truss, um, um, plant and, and where we're working at, um, the other thing good about SA is there's lots of, um, like framing truss plants that are also attached to building suppliers companies. So, you know, like bones and- Like, 

  [00:12:45] Matt: like in Mitre 10, yeah ... 

  [00:12:46] Tom: yeah. 

  [00:12:46] Hamish: And timber truss. 

  [00:12:47] Tom: Yeah, stuff like that- Yeah

  [00:12:48] kind of thing. So we would not only sell the timber and truss, but we'd also sell all the eaves, cladding, second fix as well from the hardware side. So what worked really well was, hey, we do a design or a [00:13:00] draw, we get a full list of everything that's in it, and then we can sell it to and deliver it to.

  [00:13:04] Yeah. And so that was working really well on, like cladding and all that kind of stuff, framing. So then we sort of transitioned to, well, could we do a similar idea with like whole house products? So could we model a whole house or design a whole house, get a full list that then a builder can go and say, "Well, now I've got a full list of full build quantities, I can get it priced."

  [00:13:25] So that's my background into this. So- 

  [00:13:28] Matt: So how did you transfer into 

  [00:13:30] Tom: V2E? So, yep, my, uh, business partner, Michael, um, was the owner of the Mitre 10, um, Kwik Timber Mitre 10 where I worked. 

  [00:13:38] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:13:38] Tom: Um, he was also part owner in, um, what V2E used to be, which was a company called Kwik Timber, which, or Kwik, Kwik Estimate, which we were basically exclusively framing takeoffs.

  [00:13:47] Yeah, yeah. Framing layouts and takeoffs. So after, um, a bit of business transition, we sort of said, "Well, why don't we turn Kwik Timber into this?" Do you want to come over and we'll sort of work this out together kind of thing. And so I was like, "Yeah, sounds [00:14:00] good." I was pretty good at modeling and I think a bit more than just coming in and doing the day-to-day kind of thing, could kind of see a bit more project stuff.

  [00:14:08] Yeah. So, um, yeah, come in and first year was how do we turn 2D CAD layouts into 3D models. Second year was how do we do other things other than framing, planning takeoffs, and then went from there kind of thing, so. Yeah, inter- yeah. 

  [00:14:22] Matt: I just wanted to go back I think gives more context to 

  [00:14:24] Hamish: what we're 

  [00:14:24] Matt: talking- Oh, 

  [00:14:24] Hamish: 100%, yeah, totally agree.

  [00:14:25] Yeah. Uh, and probably gives you a little bit more validation as well, like your experience. And I actually didn't know the, the, the architect and the engineer- Yeah ... background as well, but- 

  [00:14:34] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:14:34] Hamish: I, I, I think it actually puts you as the perfect person- 

  [00:14:37] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:14:37] Hamish: to, to actually... Because you're thinking about it architecturally, but, and structurally.

  [00:14:41] Tom: Yeah. And it, it's right. I mean, like I always say, when we look for people that we hire in our team, I look for, um, modeling skills or construction knowledge. 

  [00:14:51] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:14:52] Tom: Because usually if they've got one, we can teach them the other. 

  [00:14:55] Hamish: Actually, that reminds me, Cam said, uh, he's waiting for the job, uh- 

  [00:14:59] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:14:59] Hamish: [00:15:00] for the job offer.

  [00:15:00] I 

  [00:15:00] Tom: know he is. 

  [00:15:00] Hamish: Just- Yeah. Great. Yeah, cool ... 

  [00:15:02] Tom: just park it up. Yeah. 

  [00:15:02] Hamish: He said, he said, he said, he said- Who? He said, "Don't tell too many- Cam. He said, "Don't tell too many people." 

  [00:15:08] Tom: Yeah. Thanks. Uh. Don't put it on the 

  [00:15:09] Hamish: podcast. But don't... Oh, okay. We'll- Specifically said 

  [00:15:10] Tom: that, yeah. 

  [00:15:11] Hamish: Yeah. Um. Yeah. 

  [00:15:12] Tom: That's funny. 

  [00:15:14] Hamish: So, um, so the D- so the DNA is really important.

  [00:15:16] Yes. And it's understanding how me, Hamish from Sanctum Homes, builds my buildings. Correct. And it's, as you said, it's w- we like to use 35 mil vertical battens- Yeah ... and then 35 mil- Horizontal ... horizontal battens. Yep. But we also wanna have that same 70 mil cavity closer- Mm-hmm ... if we're using weatherboards.

  [00:15:36] Yeah. So we're putting a 35 by 70 on edge. On edge. 

  [00:15:38] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:15:38] Hamish: Yep. So you wanna know all of that- Correct ... because you're modeling all of that- 

  [00:15:41] Tom: Correct ... 

  [00:15:42] Hamish: into your model. 

  [00:15:42] Tom: Correct. So- 

  [00:15:43] Matt: You've got a huge checklist then of stuff. 

  [00:15:44] Tom: Yeah, heaps of checklist stuff. Um, not only that, we have like what we call like vignettes kind of thing, which is like we can basically- Sounds like a 

  [00:15:51] Matt: nice wine.

  [00:15:52] Tom: So, yeah, um, that would be nice. Um, it's almost like we could set up the Sanctum Homes weatherboard standard- [00:16:00] Yeah ... as a little BIM model. Yeah. Yeah. So when we do a Sanctum Homes job- Drag it ... it's like drag that in, and then all you're changing is what is the weatherboard cladding kind of thing. Yeah.

  [00:16:06] Because the battens gonna stay the same, 

  [00:16:09] Hamish: raft's gonna stay the same. Yeah. So I've come to you, you know my DNA at Sanctum Homes, you know how we build it. Yeah. We've got all these little vignettes everywhere. 

  [00:16:15] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:16:15] Hamish: Uh, and you're like, "Hamish, the model's done." 

  [00:16:18] Tom: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:16:19] Hamish: Here's a whole list of CSV files. 

  [00:16:22] Tom: Mm-hmm 

  [00:16:24] Hamish: Carry on.

  [00:16:24] Tom: Yeah. So there's a step between that first. Okay. Normally what happens is, "Hey man, the model's done. Here's the list of everything that's wrong with that." 

  [00:16:32] Hamish: RFIs. With the drawings? Yeah. Yeah, great. Yeah, cool. 

  [00:16:35] Tom: Here's- '

  [00:16:35] Hamish: Cause, 'cause it, 'cause it, like everything, is iterative, right? Correct. So we're doing first cut- Yep

  [00:16:38] first cut model. 

  [00:16:39] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:16:40] Hamish: And it's usually first cut working drawings, first cut- Yep ... schematic engineering. Correct. 

  [00:16:43] Tom: Uh, 

  [00:16:44] Hamish: yeah. 

  [00:16:44] Tom: Yeah, and it's things, the things that the guys pick up on that we try and, like, highlight as things like, beam's not gonna fit, like- Yeah ... or window's gonna clash with another window here.

  [00:16:53] Hamish: And that right there is the, the classic example of architectural and engineering not talking to each other. Correct. Yeah. And both of them sort [00:17:00] of engineer thinking practically, architectural thinking aesthetically, and them not talking to each other. Lintels is probably 

  [00:17:05] Matt: a big one. 

  [00:17:06] Tom: Yeah, lintels- Yeah ... is a big one.

  [00:17:07] Yeah. Um, and even, um, a step further is, like, interior plan as well kind of thing. Like, we've had, like, joinery cupboards going too high, so they stick up in, covering highlight windows, stuff like 

  [00:17:18] Hamish: that. How the fuck does that happen? 

  [00:17:21] Tom: Just... 

  [00:17:21] Matt: So- Okay. Anyway, uh- So, so perfect process is you do your, like, you get your prelim working drawings that have been sort of reviewed- Yep

  [00:17:28] refined. 

  [00:17:29] Hamish: First cut construction. Y- 

  [00:17:30] Matt: yeah. Yeah. Then you've got your, like, a bit of a basic interior design, a, a prelim engineering. You should by then have it modeled to understand performance, so you can then say- Yep ... "Hey, this is the type of window we're after. This is the type of... Here's the profile of the window.

  [00:17:42] Here's the insulation value." Mm-hmm. Soil test I'm assuming you should have by then too. 

  [00:17:47] Tom: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:17:47] Hamish: Yeah, 

  [00:17:47] Tom: yeah, 

  [00:17:48] Matt: yeah. Yeah. And a survey. Stuff like that. And a survey. Then- All, 

  [00:17:49] Hamish: all that stuff, 

  [00:17:50] Matt: yeah ... flick that off to you with a brief. Yep. And then you start running your- 

  [00:17:54] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:17:54] Matt: your details. All together, yep. Yeah, and then the next, so you've sped out a huge document, the next change would [00:18:00] be, like, once you've got your final documentation, and just do it once.

  [00:18:02] Pretty 

  [00:18:02] Tom: much kind of thing, 

  [00:18:03] Hamish: yeah. Can I, can I just... So, so I want to get to that in a sec, but, um, so what, so what happens at that coordination meeting? Like, when, when we're sitting down, and I'm not just gonna go, "Hey Tom, here's some fucking drawings. Crack on" Mm. 'Cause there's probably some intel that I want to give to you.

  [00:18:17] Matt: You can't gatekeep information, otherwise you're not- No, all- It's like AI at the moment. What you put in is what you get out. 

  [00:18:21] Hamish: Exactly. Yeah. So, so, uh, we, we catch up on a Teams meeting before I'm gonna send you all the drawings- Yep ... you can review them. We're sitting down and we're talking through some little nuances- Yep

  [00:18:29] of the project. 

  [00:18:30] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:18:30] Hamish: What, what are we, what are we talking about there? 

  [00:18:32] Tom: Yeah, so things that we're... Basically what we try and do is go, send us the project first. We'll try and look at it for- Yeah ... a day or two. Get some context, 

  [00:18:41] Hamish: yep. Figure 

  [00:18:42] Tom: out how to do the planning. Yeah. Yeah. We will normally come back with questions as well.

  [00:18:44] Okay. Great. So engineer's got this written down, but the architect shows this. What's the plan here kind of thing, you know. Um, s- you know, a list of those kind of questions. You've probably got stuff that you want a list of as well. Yeah. If it's a, um, new build, it's relatively easier to handle [00:19:00] those meetings.

  [00:19:00] They're not as long Pretty straightforward. Yeah. And the final question I want to ask is, what else do I need to know about this project that I can't find in documentation? 

  [00:19:09] Hamish: Do I need this back in 

  [00:19:11] Tom: five days? That 

  [00:19:11] Hamish: is the... 

  [00:19:11] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. That's a hard one. But that is one of the things. Yeah. Could be, like, honestly, tender dates, stuff like that.

  [00:19:17] Yeah. Yeah. Like, is there a tender date? Yeah. Tell us what it is, because I'd much rather say to you, "Look, we're not actually going to be able to make it" or- Yeah. Yeah ... we're going to this thing. 

  [00:19:24] Hamish: Communication. 

  [00:19:24] Tom: Yeah. Leave you hanging kind of thing. 

  [00:19:26] Matt: That's the theme of the day, communicate. 

  [00:19:28] Tom: Communicate. Um, but yeah, renovations is a bit harder.

  [00:19:32] Few more questions, things like, right, what's part of the scope that's not noted anywhere, so- Are 

  [00:19:37] Matt: you still, are you still drawing the existing building? 

  [00:19:38] Tom: Correct. Yeah. 

  [00:19:39] Matt: Yeah. I'd, I'd almost just rather you get to draw the whole thing and... 

  [00:19:42] Tom: Well, it's, but it's more things like from, from a BOQ point of view, it's going things like, right, is part of your scope to repaint the- Yeah

  [00:19:48] whole existing- Mm ... or is it just to leave X amount of rooms, or are you re-stripping it? Like if there's a new bathroom, you're stripping down to studs- Yeah ... that means new bu- all that kind of stuff, because it's never noted on a [00:20:00] plans properly. 

  [00:20:00] Matt: That's the hard thing. So like sometimes with the old hardwood walls, I'll just build the whole hallways new because I know that I'm getting them straight.

  [00:20:06] Tom: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. 

  [00:20:08] Matt: Like rather than sit there trying to spazz old OB timber and- Yep. Yep ... like cut them, just frame or cleat to it straight off. Yeah. 

  [00:20:17] Tom: Well, and you guys, Victoria, there's a lot, a lot of existing houses are all like stump and bare. Yep. So like if you're doing floor coverings, it's like a new yellow tongue sometimes.

  [00:20:25] Just have to, yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:20:26] Hamish: Sometimes new, new stumps. 

  [00:20:27] Tom: Yeah. Correct. Yep. That's right. 

  [00:20:29] Hamish: Yeah. Kind of thing. So- Yeah, so it's working out what the scope is. 

  [00:20:30] Tom: Pre... Yeah. Yeah. So, so what we pl- what we hope to do is go, if it's a renovation or extension, like we will always do a pre-modeling meeting, like that kind of thing.

  [00:20:38] If it's a new build and we feel like we've noted your DNA and it's- Yeah ... more spiff project, it's probably a- Yeah ... dot points in the emails kind of thing. Yeah, just 

  [00:20:47] Hamish: letting you know, I'm 

  [00:20:47] Tom: gonna- Yeah, exactly. I want this one. I'm, 

  [00:20:49] Hamish: I'm, I'm gonna still want a, a meeting. 

  [00:20:50] Tom: Yeah. Correct. 

  [00:20:51] Matt: Yeah, I think it's just easier.

  [00:20:52] Like again, communi- like comm- like just, it's, because you know it's the first time you don't do it, so you're gonna miss. It could be two minutes. It could be 

  [00:20:56] Hamish: two 

  [00:20:57] Tom: minutes. Yeah, correct. Or it could be... Yeah. Meeting is great for us. 

  [00:20:59] Matt: Yep. [00:21:00] 

  [00:21:00] Tom: Doesn't always work for everyone else. 

  [00:21:01] Matt: Yep. 

  [00:21:01] Tom: So, yeah. So we're gonna go through that.

  [00:21:03] We're gonna do our first pass of the model. We're gonna say, "Hey guys, model's done." If we've got a list of relatively small things, then it would be the same thing as like, let's do a quick meeting or a phone call and just go, "I want to list off these things. These are the last things we need to know before we can do it.

  [00:21:17] This is what we've picked up." If it's a big list, it's like, "We need a 45 minutes to show you what we're talking about" kind of thing. Yeah. Because you might need to go and answer RFIs- Yeah. Yeah ... before we do final lines. So once we resolve the model kind of thing, then it's a matter of us running the BOQ.

  [00:21:32] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:21:32] Tom: So the way the software that we use work, which is Pluspec, which you guys have talked about Pluspec- Yep ... on the podcast before as well. Yep. Yeah. So we use Pluspec, um- 

  [00:21:39] Matt: It's a Google SketchUp model. 

  [00:21:41] Tom: Yeah. So SketchUp is the software that we draw in. Pluspec is a really good like plug-in to be able to- 

  [00:21:46] Matt: Yeah.

  [00:21:46] It's pl- SketchUp's the ecosystem. 

  [00:21:48] Tom: Yeah. SketchUp's the ecosystem. Yep. So Pluspec, um, is really good, built by a builder, um, really great tool. Things like if you're familiar with Revit, um, you can have wall families in Revit that go- Yeah [00:22:00] Plus spec basically means you can do that in SketchUp- Yeah ... but then you can export measurements.

  [00:22:06] Matt: Okay. 

  [00:22:06] Tom: So part of where we've come in is because we have used Plus spec for, like, six or seven years straight now kind of thing, we just have seven years worth of two and a half thousand projects a year of just building and building and building onto the library. Yeah. So once we model it and the m- project is resolved, we can then export a BOQ.

  [00:22:26] Matt: Would you use the same, uh, program again if you were starting today? 

  [00:22:29] Tom: Yep, absolutely. 

  [00:22:30] Matt: Yeah, yeah, okay. 

  [00:22:31] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:22:31] Hamish: P- Plus spec is pretty rad. Like, even I can jump in and do something- Yeah ... and I'm a fricking Luddite when it comes to this stuff 

  [00:22:38] Tom: You said 

  [00:22:39] Hamish: it. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Um, 

  [00:22:41] Tom: yeah. 

  [00:22:42] Hamish: So, okay, so we, we, we've got this, um, we've got this BOQ.

  [00:22:46] Yep. And, and, and let's just, just for clarity, if anyone's missed this, we, well, you- 

  [00:22:52] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:22:52] Hamish: V2E, are actually building the house- 

  [00:22:55] Tom: Correct ... 

  [00:22:55] Hamish: in a 3D model how we wanna build it on site. 

  [00:22:58] Tom: Correct. 

  [00:22:59] Hamish: Yep, [00:23:00] so depths of footings. Yep. You're, you're working out, uh, spoil removal. Yep. RIO. 

  [00:23:05] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:23:05] Hamish: Concrete volumes. Yep. Cladding 

  [00:23:09] Tom: battens.

  [00:23:09] Yep. Everything. Everything. All that. And s- And- And the DNA part is we're trying to apply Your Builder's DNA- Yep ... to the model as we're building it. Yep. So, um- 

  [00:23:16] Hamish: So we've then got a bunch of numbers- Yep ... on a page. 

  [00:23:20] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:23:20] Hamish: What are we doing with them? 

  [00:23:21] Tom: So the next part is, which is also again part of Your Builder's DNA, is understanding how you guys like to see a project.

  [00:23:28] Matt: I was gonna say, that would be the... You would see a whole range of stuff 

  [00:23:33] Tom: there. Yeah. And I see some things that I like, and I see some things I definitely don't like as well. Um- You see 

  [00:23:38] Matt: some things you 

  [00:23:38] Hamish: just can't unsee. 

  [00:23:39] Tom: Yeah, pretty much. Like what? So, yeah. Just like category setups and- Like 

  [00:23:43] Hamish: not enough ... 

  [00:23:44] Tom: No- not necessarily not enough, just it, um...

  [00:23:47] I, I really, really try my hardest to see things how you as a builder would see it, kind of thing. Yeah. I'm trying to empathize with you guys, the builder. Sometimes I will try and suggest and go, "Have you thought about this?" Because [00:24:00] one, one thing that is really big for me, and this is probably where, um, our process of focusing on the BOQ, the model, the DNA, rather than just the pricing and the rates, kind of thing- Yeah

  [00:24:09] is there traditionally has always been such a disconnect between the pricing process and the construction process. Like, do all this work to get the price, and we sign the contract, and then I pass it over to construction, and then they gotta build it. 

  [00:24:22] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:24:23] Tom: Whereas to me, it's like the conversations of, okay, I've been given this brief.

  [00:24:29] I've gotta build this subfloor. I've gotta make it fit to this budget. 

  [00:24:33] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:24:34] Tom: And I've gotta make sense of it all myself, kind of thing. Whereas I'm going, if we think about construction in pre-construction, it's gonna make it flow a lot easier. 

  [00:24:43] Matt: Let's, we just changed all of our categories. We had a few, but I've refined them right out.

  [00:24:46] I think I've now got 160 something. 

  [00:24:50] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:24:51] Matt: But each one is doubled up as a labor as well. Yeah. But the whole idea was it's actually set up not for estimation, for cost tracking. 

  [00:24:56] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:24:57] Matt: That's it. I've actually built my template so it's [00:25:00] so easy to cost track that it's foolproof. 

  [00:25:02] Hamish: I've got one cost code now for labor.

  [00:25:04] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:25:04] Hamish: And I've literally just got, uh, labor cost codes, and my team just go, "Cost code," and underneath that I'm using the Future Builder Estimating Spreadsheet. Yep. And it's just listed- Yeah ... underneath it. 

  [00:25:15] Tom: Yep. So if your project management system is set up, so you guys both Wonder Build, right? Yep. Yeah. So say if your Wonder Build is set up well to cost track- 

  [00:25:23] Hamish: Free, free plug to Wonder Build if you ever want to punch, punch us in the podcast.

  [00:25:25] Matt: Funnily enough, I've had Buildxact down my throat. They keep calling me the last few days, and I've just, like, "Guys," the third conversation- It's gone. It's gone ... "your program's outdated." 

  [00:25:32] Tom: It's gone. 

  [00:25:33] Matt: It's gone. 

  [00:25:35] Tom: It's not a free plug by the way, Hashy, looking directly at you. So, um, but if you're Wonderbuild, or Buildxact, software agnostic- Boom, boom, boom, yeah

  [00:25:46] if set up correctly and, and set up so that you're thinking about your whole business, you should be able to look at your category set up and see your cost tracking- 

  [00:25:57] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:25:57] Tom: and see how you've gone [00:26:00] from what you've estimated, what you've done a takeoff on, what you've ordered and what you've cost tracked against that.

  [00:26:05] And then refer that to how you're tracking on the build. Yeah. Really, really simply kind of thing. So cost codes come in as well, i- is like how does that translate to either my accounting software, but again, if you have it set up with Xero a certain way then Wonderbuild should be your point of truth for how you're looking at cost tracking.

  [00:26:21] Yeah. And that's where you feed your numbers back to. Yeah. So yeah. 

  [00:26:24] Hamish: Definitely. W- Wonderbuild is our source of truth- Yeah, yeah ... for that kind of stuff. So. So, um, we've got these numbers. Yeah. We're importing them into- Wonderbuild ... Wonderbuild. 

  [00:26:32] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:26:32] Hamish: Or, or on- Just 

  [00:26:33] Matt: any accounting platform. Um, Wonderbuild. Well, you could probably use this sp- if you, you could probably still use a spreadsheet if you still- Do we?

  [00:26:38] Tom: Yeah. Absolutely. We, like, for those who don't have a project management software, part of our BOQ comes out in a soft- in an Excel sheet that's formulated so you can literally sit there and put your rates in- Put numbers in, yeah ... and it'll calculate it for you. Yep, 

  [00:26:49] Hamish: yep. 

  [00:26:50] Tom: So 

  [00:26:50] Hamish: yeah. Yeah. 

  [00:26:50] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:26:51] Hamish: Yeah, so we've got a CSV file- Yeah

  [00:26:52] which essentially is a, is a, is a Excel spreadsheet. 

  [00:26:55] Tom: Yep, 

  [00:26:55] Hamish: yep. And we're dragging that into Wonderbuild. Yep. Which you guys do. 

  [00:26:58] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:26:58] Hamish: Yep, you put it into Wonderbuild for [00:27:00] us. How is that then populating? 

  [00:27:02] Tom: Yep, cool. So when I think about a project that breaks down, there are, like, basically four ar- main areas of cost that I like to think about.

  [00:27:11] So you've got materials, you've got subcontractor, you've got labor, and then you've got anomalies is what I like to call them. So- Materials really is how much, how many 9- how much 945 is there in the job? What am I paying per meter in 945? Yeah. Kind of thing. Subcontractor, two ways. Either quote, quoted items that you guys are gonna get quoted.

  [00:27:32] Yeah. Because assuming the way you guys run is, um, same sort of group of subbies- Yeah ... doing every job, build relationships, stuff like that kind of thing. So either quotes or rate set up kind of thing with them, right? Uh, labor, again, some of that can be- Yeah ... tied into subbies if you don't have a big o- on-house labor one, but knowing your labor cost, how to work it out.

  [00:27:52] Matt: But your labor, just to go back, to la- Yeah ... labor is internal for me, is internal in my team labor- 

  [00:27:58] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:27:58] Matt: not my plumber's 

  [00:27:59] Tom: labor. No, that [00:28:00] would be part of- 

  [00:28:00] Matt: Yeah, subcontractor. That's, that's subbies, yeah. That, that's why I just wanted to make sure we're- Yeah, yeah ... understanding that. Yeah, 

  [00:28:03] Tom: so I'd say internal builder's labor is what I 

  [00:28:04] Hamish: mean.

  [00:28:04] Which is, which is why, the, the exact reason why I separated Sanctum Homes labor into one cost code- Yeah ... and not have it- That- ... and not have it throughout all my other cost 

  [00:28:12] Matt: codes. That's, we've literally got, for example, it'd be like from subfloor slab, uh- Yeah ... termites, then the bottom we have literally s- slab floor labor s- like, as a whole breakdown.

  [00:28:21] Hamish: Well, I've, I've got, uh, say 450 carpentry labor- Yeah ... i- in my frame. Yeah. Carpentry frame labor, but that's only for subby. 

  [00:28:30] Tom: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:28:30] Hamish: That, that's where, that's where, that's where I put the subbies in that. Yeah, 

  [00:28:32] Matt: so they've got subbies regard to, yeah. Yep, yep. Into, yeah. Yep. 

  [00:28:34] Tom: Makes sense, yep. Um, anomalies are what I mean by PC alarm items, allowances.

  [00:28:40] Okay. Fixtures and fittings that are custom, once-off, you know, things like that- Yep ... kind of thing, because if, if it's, if you're getting a custom door handle made There's no probably existing pricing information- Yes ... up there, right? Yeah. I think. So for three out of four of those categories, there's a good chance that you guys, actually the builders already have [00:29:00] pricing information on this.

  [00:29:00] Hamish: 'Cause to confirm, your model is also picking up the number of taps, the number of- Correct ... toilets- Yep ... the number of downpipes- 

  [00:29:08] Tom: Yep ... the number of box gutters. It's a big count. Yeah. It's just a big count- Yep ... of what's in that file. Yeah. So, yeah. So the idea being is that comes in, here's a list of everything you need.

  [00:29:15] You know the pricing of everything that you need, either through previous projects, quote requests, price list, matching it up kind of thing. 

  [00:29:23] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:29:23] Tom: And that's gonna build your price for you, right? Yep. So what you guys then know as builders is the price built out, where it's literally, "This is what I need and this is what the price is and this is what it equals."

  [00:29:33] So now I can assess the project and go, "Where's my margin? Where's my markup? What categories do I need to put more contingency in?" And that's the decisions that you as a builder should be making. Yep. 

  [00:29:44] Hamish: Yeah. Not me. Can I ask a question? Sure. If, if there's something that comes out, uh, in these anomalies- Yep

  [00:29:50] and we don't have something in our price file that, um, matches that- 

  [00:29:55] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:29:56] Hamish: does that populate my spreadsheet as a zero sum item? Yep. Zero sum, yeah. And [00:30:00] then we just go in and we just 

  [00:30:01] Tom: put that in- Yep. Just punch that in ... manually. Yeah, yeah. Cool. 

  [00:30:03] Matt: So, yeah. So about 50% would be, should be able to taken care of by your price book.

  [00:30:07] Tom: That's the idea. So yeah. Yeah. So what, so part of what we do is, and this is where Wonderbuild's great, there's some other softwares that do this, but Wonderbuild's kind of flagship in building this, is the ability to hold, uh, like a master price list kind of thing, which is basically an area where you guys can get pricing information, feed it all into one- 

  [00:30:26] Hamish: Yeah

  [00:30:26] Tom: one big price list, where you can know the information in your price list. So when our BOQ comes in, it's gonna find all of your master pricing info and match up the pricing, right? 

  [00:30:35] Hamish: And does that happen over here or it happens when it gets- Happens in 

  [00:30:38] Tom: Wonderbuild. Happens in- It would be in Wonderbuild. So where, the part that I really like about this is because one of the, um, most common questions we get asked when we get asked how we work is, "Oh, so do I give you my rate?"

  [00:30:51] You know, or, "Do I give you my pricing and how does that work?" And I say, "No, the beauty of setting this up is you guys could bring on a new supplier [00:31:00] and wouldn't even know about it, and you can plug their pricing into your master list. We're gonna dump it in. The software is gonna do all the work for 

  [00:31:09] Hamish: you," kind of thing.

  [00:31:09] And I, and, and I know the answer to this, Rob, but I'm just gonna just put 

  [00:31:11] Tom: this- 

  [00:31:11] Hamish: Yeah ... to context. So say I've got two timber suppliers. Yep. Tempe Hardware and Bowens, right? Yep. Both of them might have a different rate for 9045. 

  [00:31:18] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:31:18] Hamish: But as, when that data gets fed into Wonderbuild- 

  [00:31:22] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:31:22] Hamish: both of them are coming up.

  [00:31:23] Tom: Both of them are coming up. You can set a default that you want to always default to- Yep ... I think. You also, because they're both linked to the same, like, master item- 

  [00:31:31] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:31:32] Tom: They've got the same SKU ... you can choose... Exactly, same SKU. Yeah. You can choose which one you want to allow for. Yep. 'Cause 

  [00:31:37] Hamish: then you can go through and you can start seeing how you're gonna get the display from- 

  [00:31:40] Tom: Correct

  [00:31:40] Hamish: point 

  [00:31:40] Tom: to point And so this is where we kind of feel like to, to build this, 'cause it was such a big shock to go, "We're an estimating company, but we don't price a job for you." Like- 

  [00:31:50] Hamish: Yeah ... 

  [00:31:50] Matt: be like, "Hang on, how does that work?" 

  [00:31:51] Hamish: And I must admit, three or four years ago when we first chatted- Yeah ... that was the bit that I was really struggling- Yeah, yeah

  [00:31:57] to wrap my head around. That's, yeah. And but I think, you [00:32:00] know, we both k- we're almost coming to the same place- Like come full circle a bit ... the same. Yeah, we've come- Yeah ... come full circle. And you know, and admittedly, we've, we've started down the modeling, um- Yep ... side ourself. We're still gonna continue doing that, but we actually see value in, uh, engaging V2E now just, I guess, as part of our, um, speeding up- Yep

  [00:32:20] 'cause we've got a few projects coming up. Yeah. But also it's actually really just understanding what are the things that we actually need to price. Mm-hmm. Yep. And, and we may even just land on the fact that we won't model in-house. 

  [00:32:32] Tom: Mm. 

  [00:32:32] Hamish: We, we might just go, "You know what? This is just too easy." 

  [00:32:34] Tom: Yep, yep. But I think that there is, um, I'm alw- I'm big on, um, uh, collaboration as well.

  [00:32:42] Yep. So for instance, when you talk about you guys going a modeling path, um, we got a couple builders who their interior designers, for example, we were having this chat the other day, right? Yeah. Their interior designers will use SketchUp. Yeah. So what we would do is do a full model before it's done interiors we can give you, um, you know, if it was full height [00:33:00] tiles, if there was this as per the floor plan, here's a fixtures and fittings, like- Yeah

  [00:33:04] take off so you can start building price from. Yep, yep. However, what we've done in the SketchUp model is just turn off all the interiors. You can give that SketchUp model to the interior designer. They can do theirs inside the construction model if they wanted to. 

  [00:33:16] Hamish: So th- this probably rings true to Matt.

  [00:33:18] So Matt and I, um, use the same interior designer on a, on a lot of projects- Mm-hmm ... Aaron from Hey Hey. So I asked whether or not Aaron could use that model, and i- intellectually I'm like, "Well, of course he could." 

  [00:33:29] Tom: Mm. 

  [00:33:29] Hamish: And I think it would save her time, and if she's existing in the same model as- 

  [00:33:34] Tom: Mm-hmm ... 

  [00:33:35] Hamish: your drawing and that we're building to- Yep

  [00:33:36] if we're building as per plan- 

  [00:33:37] Tom: Yep 

  [00:33:40] Hamish: Sh- 

  [00:33:40] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:33:40] Hamish: everything just reads well together. 

  [00:33:42] Tom: So the other one we just had is, like, um, this guy's, um, uh, Built Structural, who are a great company here in Adelaide who do, uh, structural steel, um- Yeah ... supply, install, and design as well. Um, they, we just met with them the other week because they also use, um, Tekla, which is another Trimble software [00:34:00] to do all their 3D steel drawings.

  [00:34:01] So we're at the moment working on a process to go, once they've done the steel shop drawings- Yeah ... they can give it back to us, and we can put their shop drawings inside our framing model, turn off our nominal steel that we've done for them. 

  [00:34:12] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:34:13] Tom: And so then when it gets delivered, an update of the model is, well, here's actually the steel shop drawings.

  [00:34:18] Yeah. So we can see is there gonna be a clash? Is the clearing the 

  [00:34:21] Hamish: right spot? Yeah. And, I mean, if we're talking about modeling, we've got to give a massive shout-out to the OG, Mr. Daniel Perram. Like- Oh, yeah. Big time. Yeah, yeah ... he, he does this like- 

  [00:34:28] Tom: The wizard. Yeah ... 

  [00:34:28] Hamish: the wizard. Yeah. He, he does the... If, if you don't follow Perram Design Construct on social media, you have to.

  [00:34:34] Yep. Like, some of the stuff that he's doing- 

  [00:34:36] Matt: Yep ... 

  [00:34:36] Hamish: and how he's then rolling that out on site- Mm ... and using his layout, his- Correct ... he's using Trimble, his Trimble layout station, and even to the point where he's got, um, his excavator hooked up- Yeah ... to all of that. 

  [00:34:48] Tom: Correct. 

  [00:34:48] Hamish: Like, this is where it all starts integrating and playing- 

  [00:34:51] Tom: That's right

  [00:34:51] Hamish: out, playing, you know, interfacing with- 

  [00:34:52] Tom: And Dan is not only a great bloke, in terms of- He's a ripper dude ... just, just a ripper dude as well. Um, but also he [00:35:00] is, um, a bit of the OG in terms of because he's a designer as well- 

  [00:35:03] Hamish: Yeah ... 

  [00:35:03] Tom: he can start from that sketch- Yeah ... and go, "I can plant the model and see it all the way through."

  [00:35:07] Yeah. So he's got the tramline- Yeah ... worked out, which is great. 

  [00:35:09] Hamish: And if you've ever seen him on a hydrofoil, it's bloody impressive. 

  [00:35:14] Matt: So it probably goes back to the, well, it's a common saying that, like, quoting isn't an art. That's not a skill, it's an art. I'd actually now start to disagree and flip it. It's a science.

  [00:35:23] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:35:23] Matt: Yeah, I think, I think that- It's a 

  [00:35:24] Tom: process. 

  [00:35:25] Matt: Yeah, I, I think that when you get... Hopefully this settles the conversation around being questioned on price, when we can show them so much piece of information. And when an, an architect or a client or someone goes, "Well, I thought it'd be worth this," it's like, well- 

  [00:35:37] Tom: It's not 

  [00:35:38] Matt: It's not But here's why.

  [00:35:39] Here's why. Like, which part of data do you want? 

  [00:35:41] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:35:41] Matt: Um- 

  [00:35:42] Tom: Because if you get that challenge and you go, like, a great example of how it is, if you get that challenge and you go, uh, uh, like footings is a great example, right? Yeah. Because clients, um, uh, s- a small percentage of clients are gonna understand structural drawings and footing detail.

  [00:35:59] Yeah. [00:36:00] A large number of clients are not gonna be able to understand. So when you give them a footing and you go, "The substructure is- 

  [00:36:05] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:36:06] Tom: 200 grand of this project," kind of thing, and they go, "What does that mean? I'm not even seeing any walls on site and I've already been billed 200 grand." And you can show them and go, "Well, we have four meter board piers- Yeah

  [00:36:18] and spiral legs going down- Mm ... them at 1,200 centers before we even get timber to site," kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, really easy. Really easy conversation. 

  [00:36:27] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, it's an easy sell from so many mul- Okay ... like so many different points of view. It actually 

  [00:36:31] Matt: allows you to be more open book with the client too, 'cause you can back up everything that you say.

  [00:36:34] Hamish: He- here's the data. Yeah. Which, which part do you want to look at? Here's the model. Here's the data. Yeah. Here's the plans. Yeah. Ev- everything's linked. Yeah. But not only is it great for estimating, like if you think about, uh, how that translates to the team on site. 

  [00:36:44] Tom: Yeah, that's... Yeah. 

  [00:36:45] Hamish: Like, 'cause we're having a conversation, "Hey, I am imagining this beam going together like X, Y, and Z."

  [00:36:51] My team can then go in and look at that model- Yeah ... and go, "Oh, that's how they're doing that." 

  [00:36:55] Tom: Yeah. Correct. 

  [00:36:55] Hamish: Uh, and it does fit. This, this is how, this is the height they're putting that beam. 

  [00:36:58] Tom: Yeah. Et 

  [00:36:58] Hamish: cetera. 

  [00:36:59] Tom: Exactly. And that, it's [00:37:00] part of the... So, like, like another great thing with OneBuild, Source of Truth, stuff like that, is being able to have like the document control in OneBuild as well, kind of thing.

  [00:37:07] Log on and see the plans that are uploaded- Yeah ... and see where you're at, kind of thing. That, part of what we did, try to do with the same thing, is going the, um, the model viewer that we deliver to you guys so you can see and use the model, kind of thing. Because not everybody is, is capable of using SketchUp- Yeah

  [00:37:22] or CAD or things like that. So the viewer that we've built to, a- and the interactive, um, pro models, um, viewer, I think is what we're calling now, that we can deliver it to builders to use, is like web-based and controlled from the server so that y- we could all look at it on different devices and we're all gonna be looking at the same model.

  [00:37:41] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:37:41] Tom: There's no chance that you're gonna be looking at a different one than I'm gonna be looking at, kind of thing. So- 

  [00:37:45] Matt: And the model's just viewed on a computer? 

  [00:37:47] Tom: Yeah. Um, we've got a mobile app as well- Yeah ... that's about to come out. It'll probably be out by the time this gets posted, I guess. 

  [00:37:52] Matt: So what's the difference?

  [00:37:53] So just, you can just watch it on an app? Is it view it on an app? Is it, or the a- is it, is the computer the same as the app? 

  [00:37:58] Tom: Oh, so the, [00:38:00] yeah, pretty much. So the reason for the app is because this, so it's actually built, it's like a custom-built viewer- Yeah ... that we built with, um, like Unity, which is like a video game- Yeah

  [00:38:08] engine kind of thing. So it's just too heavy to view just in a browser, so we built a custom app that's specifically built to view the model in as well. 

  [00:38:16] Matt: And is that just part of the package, or how does that usually work? 

  [00:38:19] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So it's like you... I think it's a monthly cost to sign up for the pro viewer and the modeling system kind of thing, and that's every job that you do goes through this viewer.

  [00:38:29] You get a- anyone in your team get ac- no limit on users, stuff like that, so. 

  [00:38:32] Hamish: All right. I, I got probably 

  [00:38:34] Matt: one- How much does that cost a month, just out of interest? 

  [00:38:35] Tom: It's 149 a month. 

  [00:38:37] Matt: Yeah, and, and that, and then that, and then you add your- Per company. Yeah. 

  [00:38:40] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah, so, so you, so you pay that subscription to just on the server, is that right?

  [00:38:44] Tom: Yeah, pretty much. So you just sign up and- 

  [00:38:45] Matt: Is that the only way that you view the things? Because 

  [00:38:48] Tom: like- No, so we got, um... We built an original model that is, like, CAD based and not quite as good kind of thing. It's just doesn't have as much functionality and stuff like that. So you can view it that way, um, but 

  [00:38:58] Matt: it's- So, so the reason I ask [00:39:00] is because if I'm...

  [00:39:00] If I sit in front of a computer the whole time, but my team are on iPad on site- 

  [00:39:03] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:39:04] Matt: what's, how does that sort of look? Do I, would I just use the original viewer and they then just use- 

  [00:39:08] Tom: Nah, so it'll be all connected on the new one kind of thing. And the way to do it is, so part of the functionality we built into this one is the ability that you could, on the computer, go in and leave screenshots, you can leave scenes- Yeah

  [00:39:19] you can leave comments on the viewer, and then whoever's on the mobile can log on and see- 

  [00:39:23] Hamish: Yeah, 

  [00:39:23] Tom: okay ... all communication through it as well- Right ... kind of thing, so. 

  [00:39:25] Hamish: So why wouldn't we, why wouldn't everybody be able to do this? 

  [00:39:31] Tom: It's a good question. Um, one of the things that I... It's a little bit like, um, the...

  [00:39:38] So you guys both talk about why would I engage an estimate company that doesn't give me pricing, and how you've come to understanding it. Yeah. That's one question. Another question is, um, paying for a service to help with estimating when you might not necessarily recruit that cost- Yeah ... kind of thing, is a big one.

  [00:39:56] Yeah. So how do I, why would I pay you to do something [00:40:00] if I'm not guaranteed the job or if I'm not getting paid for a pre-con process? Because- Yeah ... not everyone has figured out how to get paid for quotes yet. 

  [00:40:06] Hamish: Yes. 

  [00:40:07] Tom: That's the reality. Yeah. 

  [00:40:08] Hamish: Yeah. So 

  [00:40:08] Tom: that's probably a big one. Um- 'Cause, '

  [00:40:10] Hamish: cause I mean, uh, so there, there's a, there's a setup fee initially- Yeah

  [00:40:13] which is a few grand, right? Yeah. Let's just, let's just talk that through- Yeah ... which, which is, is great value for money, uh, when you think about the long-term benefits for it. 

  [00:40:20] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:40:21] Hamish: Yeah. So the model, what, what are you talking, three, four, five 

  [00:40:26] Tom: grand? Yeah. So, so if you... So it's based on like value of project kind of thing.

  [00:40:28] Yeah. So if it was a million dollar project, expect to pay somewhere three, three and a half grand for a project. Okay. So that's model- So that's three, so 

  [00:40:34] Matt: 0.35% of a project- Yeah ... 

  [00:40:36] Hamish: roughly. Yeah. So you know what? If you're a builder out there and you're not charging $3,000 or $4,000 to be involved in that sort of ACLR process- 

  [00:40:43] Tom: Yeah

  [00:40:44] Hamish: then you're doing something wrong. 

  [00:40:45] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:40:45] Hamish: So if you can't- If you just cover 

  [00:40:46] Matt: your costs ... 

  [00:40:47] Hamish: if you can't just recruit that cost, and if you're a homeowner, if you're an architect and you're listening to this, like the information that we're, we as a builder is getting from this, where there's like almost zero chance for [00:41:00] error.

  [00:41:00] Mm-hmm. Now, well, I say no, there's not zero because there's always- Chance for error ... chance for an error. 

  [00:41:04] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:41:04] Hamish: But I guarantee when I qui- was s- was quoting five or six years ago, and I was printing out plans and using, had all my colored highlighters- Yeah, highlighters. Yeah ... and I had my pen and I was marking everything up and then entering manually.

  [00:41:15] Did you 

  [00:41:15] Tom: label your highlighters? 

  [00:41:16] Hamish: Yep, I

  [00:41:19] Tom: did. Yeah. So good. Yeah. I do, did. I've still got them kicking around home somewhere. Yeah, yeah. I think I've got a, um, a, a, a green highlighter that's got internal doors label- What- ... marked on the side of it ... blue, 

  [00:41:26] Hamish: blue for me was always structural steel. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. Structural steel. Yeah. Awesome. So, so you gotta imagine, not only are you gonna potentially miss stuff there- Mm

  [00:41:35] but you've also got the human error of them putting it in a notepad- Yeah ... and then transferring that to computer. Yeah. You could, even if you are saving money by doing that yourself, I guarantee that what you've missed- 

  [00:41:49] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:41:49] Hamish: is gonna add up to more than what you're gonna save 

  [00:41:52] Matt: by doing it wrong. And even if you're an architect too, uh, the, the, the checking over of the documentation, like, if you're complaining that a builder's spending four and a half grand to [00:42:00] get that done, I tell you what, it might save you more than four and a half grand- 100%

  [00:42:03] and pick up an issue before you get on site. 

  [00:42:04] Hamish: So, and, and you, and you're picking up issues. Yeah. And, and if you think about it from a client point of view, a potential variation, okay, so if, if there's a, if something doesn't match up on site and we don't pick it up and there's deficiencies in plans- Mm-hmm

  [00:42:16] that is a variation- 

  [00:42:17] Tom: Yeah ... 

  [00:42:17] Hamish: to the client. 

  [00:42:18] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:42:18] Hamish: And that might cost you 10 grand. 

  [00:42:20] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:42:20] Hamish: Why not s- invest that money at the, at the very beginning when the plans aren't resolved. Yep. There's still an opportunity to change them. Solve the problem now, invest a little bit more money there. 

  [00:42:30] Tom: Yeah. So, like, a really big example for that is also, like, when I talked about engineers are engineers, architects are architects, builders are builders, right?

  [00:42:37] So one skill of builders and people that know construction materials and methodology is a big one. So when it comes to things like retaining walls and block work and that, is understanding what heights blocks come in. Yeah. So therefore, what height do you need to build a retain- even if you don't need to retain that height, what height is it built to so that you're not missing half blocks and, you know, things like that.

  [00:42:59] Is an [00:43:00] architect gonna take the responsibility to make sure the architect's, the, the wall's drawn at the right height to suit the blocks that you need to build- Yeah, yeah ... and things like that? Not necessarily. I was gonna ask you guys, from a builder's point of view, what is, what was the hardest part about getting yourselves into that process of going, "This is my process.

  [00:43:17] I charge this much to get, you know, to complete this project." What, 

  [00:43:20] Matt: the asking for quotes? 

  [00:43:21] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:43:22] Matt: I d- I, I don't know. I just did it and it was like, if I lose jobs, so be it. 

  [00:43:26] Hamish: I, kind of can remember is, I, I remember chatting with Jesse from- G Luxe ... G Luxe about it, and he This was eight years ago. 

  [00:43:35] Matt: Mm. 

  [00:43:36] Hamish: He goes, "Oh yeah, we charge for quotes."

  [00:43:37] I'm like, "Oh, how do you do that?" Yeah. And, and I reckon just after that conversation, I think I charged 1,500 bucks. 

  [00:43:41] Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

  [00:43:42] Hamish: Mm-hmm. And I'm like, it got accepted. I'm like, "Oh my God." 

  [00:43:45] Tom: Yeah, 

  [00:43:45] Hamish: yeah. So we're now 10, 10 grand. Yep, 

  [00:43:47] Tom: yep. 

  [00:43:47] Hamish: Um, before that- It's not 

  [00:43:48] Matt: 10 grand for a quote, that's- 

  [00:43:50] Hamish: It, it's, it's a whole process.

  [00:43:51] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We have a whole process, right? Yep. Uh, and in our, in our... That 10 grand, it includes a model. 

  [00:43:56] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:43:57] Hamish: Uh, we also 

  [00:43:58] Matt: ch- Do you tell the clients that, like, do you show [00:44:00] the clients the model? 

  [00:44:01] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:44:01] Matt: Do you, so you actually start, show them, yeah? 

  [00:44:03] Hamish: Well, what, I mean, why, why would you not? 

  [00:44:04] Matt: No, I'm just asking a question.

  [00:44:05] Yeah. Like, yeah. 

  [00:44:05] Hamish: So, um, but, but to, to, to start off the process, we're, we're 12 to $1,500 to do a feasibility study. 

  [00:44:13] Tom: Mm-hmm. 

  [00:44:14] Hamish: Really quick two-week turnaround, which we're doing internally. Yep. Uh, and that's also including going out to a third-party estimating company- Mm-hmm ... to get a GBE. 

  [00:44:22] Tom: Yep, 

  [00:44:22] Hamish: yep. And we're doing our- Getting out 

  [00:44:23] Tom: GBE for you to...

  [00:44:24] Yep ... 

  [00:44:25] Hamish: and, and we're doing a FEZO, uh, on ProCalc as well. Yep. Putting that together as a, as a report, and that's 1,200 bucks, 1,500 bucks- Yep ... depending on the size of the project. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, yeah, we're charging 10 grand- Mm ... to be a part of the whole process. 

  [00:44:38] Tom: Yeah, cool. 

  [00:44:39] Hamish: Yeah. And how did we get there? Oh- Confidence.

  [00:44:42] Tom: Yep. 

  [00:44:42] Hamish: Yeah, and, and, and, and being able to sell value for money in it. 

  [00:44:46] Tom: I, yeah, I think it's- 

  [00:44:48] Matt: I don't know, I just did it one day. I was like, "Why don't I... Why am I wasting my time- Mm-hmm ... doing this?" I, actually, I know why I did it. I did a job for, I quoted it like I always did. I value managed it, got it [00:45:00] to the price, about to sign the contract.

  [00:45:01] "Oh, we've actually got another builder." And I was like- Mm ... "I wasted time. I'm just charging for it." Yep. Too bad. 

  [00:45:05] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:45:06] Matt: Like, yeah. So- You 

  [00:45:06] Hamish: know, the, the relationship changes as soon as you make a transaction as well. Yeah. 

  [00:45:10] Tom: Correct. 

  [00:45:10] Matt: Yeah. They res- I, I think, yeah, builders are respected now- Yeah ... which is good, and I think builders have done a ton of work in the last five years on educating themselves- Mm-hmm

  [00:45:18] and becoming professionals, and I think that's where there probably has created a bit of friction between maybe architects and builders recently, 'cause they're spending the money to invest- Mm ... in themselves, and for once we can hold our own at the table. We're just not the builder anymore- Yeah ... that's- Yeah

  [00:45:32] just rocking up, building a house. We can advise on things. 

  [00:45:34] Tom: So do you find with your clients, if you're able to lay out to them, like, "We're gonna, we're gonna price a project for you, but this is the steps we're gonna take. This is how we're gonna be involved," is that comforting for them, do 

  [00:45:46] Hamish: you feel? Oh, definitely.

  [00:45:47] Yeah, they don't- I think to be able to actually sit down and, and work through a very specific step by step by step by step. Yep. And, you know, we're, we're not perfect. We're, we're currently fine-tuning that process- Yep ... and now [00:46:00] putting a whole bunch of systems and processes- Yep ... behind it, with the goal that anyone in my business can actually pick up anything in pre-con and know exactly what to do.

  [00:46:07] Matt: Yep. I think the part we haven't talked about, though, is this 3D tool can actually be used once on site. 

  [00:46:12] Hamish: Well, no, I touched on that before. 

  [00:46:13] Matt: But like my team, yeah, our team can actually understand- Yeah ... as a visual 3D, because, like, h- how many years we've got reading plans experience? 

  [00:46:21] Hamish: Oh, lots. 

  [00:46:22] Matt: And, and, and it's hard, like even still on a plan, like it's so hard to, to find things sometimes, so- 

  [00:46:26] Hamish: And as buildings get more complicated- Mm

  [00:46:28] you know, architecturally, and also more complicated with all the things we're putting in it, like a 2D set of plans- Yeah ... doesn't, as you were saying before, doesn't show everything, so the modeling's so important. 

  [00:46:38] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And I think with the connection to on-site as well is, so you're in the office. Yeah.

  [00:46:45] Price a job. You're running the, you're running the company, you're running pre-con, you're doing all that kind of stuff like that. A lot of things are in your head. Builders have two really good things. They have good things up here and they have good guts, right? Yep. One of the hardest things [00:47:00] to do is to communicate what your gut feeling is and what you've got in your head- Yep

  [00:47:04] to other people in your team. 

  [00:47:05] Hamish: This is exactly the conversation I was having before with Fresh Record before. Oh, was it? About, about creating the history. Yes, you're 

  [00:47:10] Tom: right. Yeah. 

  [00:47:11] Hamish: About creating the story- Yeah ... from the moment someone calls- 

  [00:47:14] Tom: Yep ... 

  [00:47:15] Hamish: to the moment we sign a contract. Yeah. 

  [00:47:16] Tom: Mm. '

  [00:47:17] Hamish: Cause that data in there is so important.

  [00:47:19] Yep. And what ultimately what we wanna get to as a business... Actually, no, I'm not gonna say that, 'cause I don't wanna give away any secrets. Okay. But, but w- but I wanna get to the point where, where my team on-site- Mm ... can ask a question and they've got the answer. Yep. Like that. 

  [00:47:33] Tom: Yep. Yep. 

  [00:47:35] Hamish: And that, that doesn't happen without really good documented systems and processes during pre-con.

  [00:47:39] Tom: Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yep. 

  [00:47:40] Matt: Where do you, where do you see estimating going in the future? So five years ahead, what's the, what's a major difference? 

  [00:47:46] Tom: I think, uh, like AI is an easy answer to say AI estimating, and then, and then leave it at that- Do you really think 

  [00:47:52] Matt: it's a thing? I'm, I'm not gonna trust it just yet.

  [00:47:55] Tom: Uh, I think, uh, I, I'm, um, when I think [00:48:00] about anything to do with AI, I'm really big on, um, people who think AI is gonna come in and change their business- 

  [00:48:07] Matt: Yeah ... 

  [00:48:08] Tom: i- is a silly way to think about AI, right? Yeah. Kind of thing. The, the best results that I find from AI is like, if I, even if I sit down with pen and paper and go, "Okay, I, I need AI to, um, help me streamline this, the way I'm creating this document," right?

  [00:48:22] 'Cause I'm, it's a repetitive task- Yeah ... somebody in my team is doing over and over again. The first thing I'm gonna do is sit down with a pen and paper and map out all the steps that happen to take that document. Then I'm going to go, "Okay, where is the logical part for the AI to come in?" Because if it means it can take a 10-step process down to two steps, then it comes in here.

  [00:48:45] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:48:45] Tom: And once I do that, then the next thing I'm gonna do is talk to whoever, so Claude, OpenAI, or whoever, whatever your AI choice is kind of thing, and actually explain, "Here is the source, here is my finished product, [00:49:00] and here is the steps I took to take it. Please go and do this for me from now on." 

  [00:49:05] Matt: Yeah.

  [00:49:05] Tom: That's the way I like think about it. So when I think about estimating, the source is plans. Yeah. The result is a 3D model and a BOQ. Here's the secret sauce of how I got there. Go and help me do this. But 

  [00:49:18] Hamish: do you know what's the most- That's where I see it ... important things in both? It's the data that it's reading from.

  [00:49:22] Tom: Exactly. 

  [00:49:22] Hamish: And I'm, yeah- Shit plans, shit, shit- Correct ... shit, shit, shit plans, shit estimate. 

  [00:49:26] Tom: Correct. 

  [00:49:27] Hamish: Shit data- Yep ... shit results at the end. 

  [00:49:29] Tom: Correct. Correct. Yeah. 

  [00:49:30] Matt: I don't think anyone's uploading a plan and going, "Estimate this." Like, I think that's how people think it's gonna actually happen, but it's not. 

  [00:49:36] Tom: Yeah.

  [00:49:36] Yeah. I don't think so. And I think the, um, it's like what I said before about the, um, what we look for in staff members, right? Drawing skills, construction knowledge. Construction knowledge is, is gonna be a very, very valuable asset moving forward, I think. Mm-hmm. 

  [00:49:50] Matt: Yeah. Oh, I, yeah, I can- 

  [00:49:52] Tom: So using AI to do repetitive tasks, especially in estimating workflows, stuff like that- Yeah, yeah

  [00:49:57] very, very smart. You 

  [00:49:58] Hamish: still need a brain sitting 

  [00:49:59] Tom: at the top. [00:50:00] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, you still need the human to make the decision on, on what the, what the data is presented in front of you. 

  [00:50:06] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:50:07] Matt: I have a final question to wrap this up, so it kind of works into our MEGT Mindful Moment. MEGT is Australia's largest apprenticeship experts.

  [00:50:16] Mm-hmm. I feel like we talk about estimating- Mm-hmm ... and young kids out there who are just sort of finishing their apprenticeship, gotta estimate for the first time. Do, do- I still feel like there's a part where you've got to start early and learn to do it the old way- 

  [00:50:35] Hamish: Mm-hmm ... 

  [00:50:36] Matt: to understand- Mm-hmm ... before you, like, to get to these big grand sort of- Mm-hmm

  [00:50:41] projects. Like, if it was the first house that you're building- Mm ... would you jump into this, or should you still learn to use a program? 

  [00:50:49] Hamish: Well, I think a classic e- example of that, or a real-life example, is the one we talked about where you, we talked three years ago. 

  [00:50:55] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:50:56] Hamish: We, we worked through a whole bunch of stuff to really understand the workflow, [00:51:00] and now, now we understand how that, that workflow is- Mm-hmm

  [00:51:03] we've then come back to it. Mm-hmm. But I think if, if, if apprentices are out there thinking, "Oh, I'll just... AI will sort that out." 

  [00:51:09] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:51:10] Hamish: Like, that's not gonna work. Yeah, that's... No, dangerous. No, that's really dangerous. Yeah, 

  [00:51:12] Matt: it's not gonna go, "Here's your deck," work out. Yeah. Like, part of, like, you start, like, obviously, one of the first jobs you'll probably do as a carpenter coming out is probably deck.

  [00:51:19] Go literally hand measure it, calculate it, work it out by hand. Like, there's a, there's still, you're still gonna need to be able to read the plans- Yeah ... because if you can't read the plans, you can't build. 

  [00:51:27] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:51:28] Matt: So, and if you can't read the plans, you can't estimate. If you can't estimate, then you can't build, because you're not gonna win a job.

  [00:51:32] Hamish: Man, I remember, like, way back when, when I was estimating on paper and drawing all over it- Yeah ... I would literally draw in each stump. 

  [00:51:39] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:51:40] Hamish: Like, I would measure out, and I'd draw in each stump to then work out how many stumps are- Geez, you're 

  [00:51:43] Matt: old. 

  [00:51:43] Tom: Yeah. 

  [00:51:44] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:51:45] Tom: That's 

  [00:51:45] Hamish: awesome. But, but do you know what I mean?

  [00:51:46] Yeah. Like, I, and then I would measure, okay, well, that's 294. That, you know, that- 

  [00:51:49] Matt: We also used to have two pages of plans, and that was brilliant. 

  [00:51:52] Tom: Yeah, that's- Oh, yeah. I, I mean, the joke we like to make in our office, we've got a guy that works for us, Chris, who's, um, worked for us for four or five years now kind of thing, [00:52:00] and, um, when he was first, um, with us he spent just two days straight drawing cavity sliding units just for our BIM library, just every size, and then labeling and doing all that kind of stuff.

  [00:52:11] But he came from an architect degree, didn't really know what a cavity sliding unit was kind of thing, so it was a great overload. So my answer to what, the question you're asking, Matt, is around if we're a new builder, and should you go this way or should you do it the old-school way kind of thing, don't think about it from an estimating point of view.

  [00:52:30] Like, if you are an apprentice coming in and you want to be a builder, think about what your builder's DNA is as the first start, because if you don't know when you get delivered a set of plans how you're gonna turn that set of drawings into a finished project, that's the first thing you've got to start with.

  [00:52:48] Because if part of your builder's DNA is, "Well, how I'm gonna get these people involved in helping me is finding subtrades, getting quotes, doing this. I'm gonna go to Mitre 10 or I'm gonna go to Bunnings," whatever kind of thing, [00:53:00] that is part of your builder's DNA, 'cause that's your makeup- Yeah ... kind of thing, and then you're gonna learn to refine.

  [00:53:04] So rather than going, "How do I estimate? Do I go from here?" Figure out how you actually want to turn the plans to a finished project, and that will help give you the answers. Yeah. 

  [00:53:13] Matt: That's a great answer. 

  [00:53:14] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:53:16] Matt: Um- Mic drop. How do we get onto you? How do people reach out? 

  [00:53:21] Tom: Um, yeah, we've got a website and Instagram Facebook.

  [00:53:27] Is Facebook still a thing? I 

  [00:53:29] Hamish: think it is, yeah If, 

  [00:53:30] Matt: if you're over 

  [00:53:30] Hamish: 50. But you guys are also, you, you also do, like, a lot of, um, in-person events too- Yeah, we do Yes ... so you, you did- Like- You did the one with, uh, Luke and Dean? 

  [00:53:37] Tom: Yeah, we're going to- 

  [00:53:38] Matt: You're down in Melbourne this week ... 

  [00:53:39] Tom: but yeah, in D- I'll be down in Melbourne this week.

  [00:53:41] Hamish: And you, you do a lot of stuff with Future Builder. Yeah. Like, so just keep an eye out on your socials- Yeah ... or V2H socials- Yeah ... about any of the in-person stuff, 'cause I think it's really important to be in a room with other builders who've, who have used it- Yeah ... or are using it. Uh, and I guess what I love about the Future Builder one specifically is you're bringing in [00:54:00] people that are using it, then you're also bolting on, like- Yeah

  [00:54:02] the Wonder Builders as well. You guys are, 

  [00:54:03] Matt: you guys are working with other companies, 

  [00:54:05] Tom: like you're teaming up. It's been in the process. Like, there's... Yeah, w- when we first started, what we were doing, one of the biggest things we wanted to do is, is mine our, our business partner, we came in and said, "The last thing we want to do is come to the same homes and go, 'We've got this awesome 3D estimating thing.

  [00:54:19] First thing you've got to do is get rid of all the softwares that you use.'" Yeah. "'Cause if you're gonna use us, the only thing you can do is this." Yeah. A- and same with, oh, you're Future Builder, oh, your template's different to ours. Yeah. Sorry about that, kind of thing. Yeah. 

  [00:54:30] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:54:30] Tom: Like, that's- You're 

  [00:54:32] Matt: pigeonholing yourself

  [00:54:33] silly kind 

  [00:54:33] Tom: of things, 

  [00:54:34] Hamish: yeah. Yeah. Thank 

  [00:54:34] Matt: you, gentlemen. 

  [00:54:35] Hamish: Awesome. Done. Thanks for, uh, coming in. Thanks for having me. 

  [00:54:37] Tom: Done. 

  [00:54:38] Hamish: Cheers.