The Building Clients We Refuse to Work With
“Most likely it’s your problem.”
Matt says it with a laugh, but he’s not joking.
This episode is about the client you blame, the client you dread and the client you should have said no to months ago.
We are kicking off a new pre-construction series, and they start with something every builder talks about behind closed doors. Picking your client.
If you keep ending up with “bad clients”, that is not a client problem. That is a process problem. Because most people actually like structure. They want to know what happens next. They want to know what you need from them. They want to feel like someone is driving the bus.
If you don’t have a clear pre-construction workflow, your client will fill the gaps with stress, assumptions and late night Google searches. Then you’ll call them difficult.
Matt’s first filter is simple. A form. Then a second form. Then a 15-minute call.
He says he can usually tell in the first 20 seconds if it’s a yes or a no. Not because he’s judging their job title or their house size. It’s tone. It’s how they speak. It’s whether the conversation feels like trust or like a negotiation.
Then comes the coffee. The first date.
And it’s not about the project. It’s about the people. Bring the partner. Bring the kids. Bring the stakeholders. Because Matt doesn’t build for one person in a relationship. He builds for the whole unit.
Hamish backs it in. Pre-construction is the relationship building phase. It’s where you test the relationship before the money gets real.
The first test for Hamish is also simple. Do they fill out the application form without pushing back. Because if someone is already resisting the process, the rest of the build will be a fight.
Matt’s biggest red flag is even simpler. Don’t tell me how to do my job.
If a client starts leading with “this is how you’re going to build it”, he slows it down. If they keep pushing, he walks.
He’s literally ended a coffee meeting halfway through, paid the bill, and left. Not to be dramatic. Because he felt anxious, and he trusts that signal.
They keep coming back to the same theme. Saying no is powerful.
Even if you’re about to sign a contract. Even if the job looks amazing on paper. If the trust is off, or the relationship feels brittle, it’s not worth the anxiety tax.
Hamish has a line in his early docs that sums up his whole approach. A no dickhead policy.
He’s not trying to be edgy. He just knows that you’re not just dealing with a client for the build. You’re dealing with them for years after.
Matt calls it 15 years. Two years pre-construction, two years on site, then a decade of sign off and defects.
So you need clients you can have hard conversations with. Clients you can laugh with. Clients you can be human with.
They also talk about the other side of it. Clients should date builders too.
Pick the one you click with. Pick the one you can be honest with. Pick the one who will tell you the truth, not what you want to hear.
And if you’re a young tradie starting out, Matt’s mindful moment is blunt. You will get taken through the ringer at some point. You will do something wrong. You will blame the client. And most likely, it will be because you weren’t clear enough, you didn’t communicate enough, or you didn’t set expectations.
So slow down. Think. Respond. Don’t react.
Because the clients you refuse are often the projects that save your business.
LINKS:
Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima
MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt
Wunderbuild: https://www.wunderbuild.com/
Biz Tech Guru: https://www.biztechguru.com.au/
Connect with us on Instagram:@themindfulbuilderpod
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Matt: We- we're changing things up on the Mindful Builder. Um, firstly, huge shout-out to our massive sponsors, ProClima Australia, who are patient with us. They love us, I think. I
[00:00:14] Hamish: don't think they're patient with us. I think, I think they're, they're, they're enjoying the- Yeah ... they're enjoying the ride.
[00:00:18] Matt: The rollercoaster.
[00:00:19] Hamish: The rollercoaster. Um- I think I also want to make a big, uh, or give a big shout-out to Kyle from Wilderness Build Co. Yeah. Uh, today we are recording in his HQ in Fitzroy here. Uh, and I think we'll possibly be recording a few more-
[00:00:32] Matt: Yes ... in this location. This is now our part-time pro climber studio, uh- Lucky, lucky- Bu- built to last studio
[00:00:39] Hamish: lucky, lucky Kyle uses ProClimber. Yeah.
[00:00:41] Matt: So Ham, we had a chat a few weeks ago, or a few months ago, about just changing some things up. I, we both felt what we were doing was a little bit stagnant. Um, it was good, but we can always do better.
[00:00:53] Hamish: Well, I, I don't think stagnant's really quite, quite the right word.
[00:00:57] I think that what [00:01:00] we decided to do was get a little bit of structure around, uh, like a series of podcast, um, episodes. So over the next few weeks we are going to be focusing on pre-construction.
[00:01:11] Matt: And we're gonna go deep into every aspect. Yeah. So, yeah.
[00:01:14] Hamish: So we're gonna be bringing people on. We've got Cameron Munro coming in.
[00:01:17] Yep. We've got Brad from Bamby Build Co coming in. We've got a building surveyor coming in as
[00:01:20] Matt: well. Yeah, doing surveyor, lawyers, insurance, a number of architects. Uh- Yeah ... you're gonna hear a lot more from just Hamish and I as well, actually.
[00:01:27] Hamish: And Ben from Accada doesn't know this yet.
[00:01:29] Matt: He's coming
[00:01:29] Hamish: on. But Ben from Accada's gonna be coming on.
[00:01:30] Yeah. Maybe we should let Ray chat to him about
[00:01:32] Matt: his coming on. Yeah. So we want to take everything from the moment a client reaches out to us to the moment we get on site and everything between. So from model early to model often, uh, understanding your insurance, what an architect wants from a builder, understanding what our roles as builders responsibilities are, what the responsibilities of the architects are, uh, what we look for when we go onto a site for the first time, how to deal with clients, getting that first number, understanding estimation.
[00:01:57] So what we want to do is provide this holistic [00:02:00] view of everything before you get on site. So if you're a client, an architect, a builder, a tradie, even just someone learning or starting their business, you have a huge amount of information that you can just draw on from Hamish and I. We're pretty much just gonna unlock all our secrets.
[00:02:14] Hamish: Yeah. And- And, and, and I guess just full disclosure, what works for mine and Matt's businesses- Yeah ... or what even works for my business, there's gonna be slight differences in how Matt approaches, but I think just generally speaking, some of the main talking points that we're gonna go through, I think can be adapted to pretty much any construction business.
[00:02:33] Matt: Yeah. And we're pretty much, like Hamish and I speak a lot behind the scenes with each other about business stuff, and we're kind of just bringing that to this conversation. Yeah. And his stuff he does that I love, that I really want to implement, and probably vice versa. And we, and, and, and it's sometimes we do the same thing, but I might do something slightly different.
[00:02:48] Hamish does something different. But together when you combine them, they actually become, uh, this huge, um, cascading event that will just really improve something. So-
[00:02:57] Hamish: Well, and even to the point of us talking about, and I'm not [00:03:00] gonna name the company, but even us talking about a, an external- person that we use.
[00:03:04] Yeah Uh, we're both using his business, and both of us are having different experiences with it. I'm absolutely loving it. There are things that you'd wanna change- Yeah ... which is totally fine, but the process and the workflow is exactly the same.
[00:03:14] Matt: Yeah. A h- and that's the thing, and I think that's what's important.
[00:03:17] We wanna b- we just wanna, we want you as a listener to get more out of what you're listening to than us waffling on on some technical jargon. We want something tangible that you can take away and potentially implement in your business. But also I think if you're an architect or a consultant, you're gonna understand more how builders operate, and we wanna investigate how you guys operate so we can understand what we can do better to assist you.
[00:03:38] Yeah. I think it's everyone knowing their role. Like, we look at sport at the moment, everyone plays a role, especially in AFL. Like- Oh,
[00:03:44] Hamish: look at the Melbourne Football Club.
[00:03:45] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:45] Hamish: Everyone knows their role-
[00:03:46] Matt: Yeah ... better, don't they? And I th- and I think that's a really important thing, and it's something that's in my early documentation, is, like, who's responsible for what?
[00:03:52] Um, whilst we build a house, we, we don't comment on design, and these are the conversations I wanna have. But today's topic, [00:04:00] uh, it's picking your client, and it's a really interesting conversation because the biggest thing that I hear from builders and, uh, architects and, "Oh, the client sucks" and, "Oh, we just don't get along," I think that's a you problem.
[00:04:14] Hamish: Oh, 100%.
[00:04:15] Matt: I think that's a you problem. Uh, I, I think that's not a client problem. I think that's a you problem. And I have the best relationships with my clients and I, I haven't had, there's been in the past of some jobs that I haven't had the greatest relationships with them, um, before. I was like maybe 10 years ago that, and it's 'cause I didn't know what I didn't know, and it was a lack of process, a lack of lack of structure.
[00:04:33] Yeah. But what I know now is we get so many amazing clients that they just keep setting the benchmark for the next client.
[00:04:40] Hamish: Yeah. And I think it's also important too to understand that, um, most people like structure. Yeah. And if you're a young builder and you don't have a really well-structured ECI or early involvement or pre-construction process, of course the client's gonna get annoyed.
[00:04:56] Of course the client's gonna be confused-
[00:04:58] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:04:59] Hamish: because you're not [00:05:00] setting the expectation.
[00:05:01] Matt: Like- You're the, you're the expert ...
[00:05:02] Hamish: you're the expert here, so, you know, your clients are looking to you to understand what the next steps are. So I challenge anyone that's listening to this episode now, have a really good think about what the workflow is in your pre-construction process.
[00:05:15] Matt: Yep. '
[00:05:16] Hamish: Cause you need to then be able to communicate that really clearly to your clients.
[00:05:19] Matt: So one of the first things we do, we have, someone fills out a form on our website, they get a reply instantly for a second form to fill out that's a lot more detailed. There's two important questions I have on there.
[00:05:28] Have you built before? If it's a no, they know nothing about building. Yeah. And that's so okay. Um, I think that's a really, really good question to ask because what it does is you- You, you know, you know where they sit. If they've built before, they might have a little bit more understanding, um, if they've built three or four times, why are they finding a different builder each time?
[00:05:47] Yeah. Is it, you can find out more there. But ultimately, I wanna know that, uh, what level you sit on so we can have a really good conversation, so we can start to educate you. Because if I go into any other industry, if I went into marketing or, [00:06:00] um, medical or whatever, I don't know what they're meant to do.
[00:06:03] That's not my job. That's, they're, they're the experts. So I think when people come to you, you're the experts, and you need, you need to take them on the ride and it's, and it's, and it's an emotional ride, building.
[00:06:11] Hamish: And, and r- asking that, we, we've got that question on our form as well, and asking them questions has another layer to it as well.
[00:06:20] Because if they have built before-
[00:06:21] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:06:21] Hamish: ask about what their experience was. Yes.
[00:06:23] Matt: What you liked, what you didn't like.
[00:06:25] Hamish: Exactly. You know, if it was really good, then ask the question, why aren't you using the other builder? And there might be reasons that they don't build anymore- Yeah ... or, you know, they moved to the state or whatever.
[00:06:33] But if they've had a bad experience, understanding what the pain points were-
[00:06:38] Matt: Yeah
[00:06:41] Hamish: Trying to, well not, not convince it, but ed- then educate the clients around how you're then gonna run your process.
[00:06:46] Matt: Yeah. I always ask the question once, well, further down the track, what scares you the most about working with a builder?
[00:06:51] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:06:52] Matt: And you can get some really good answers out of that because if they've had a previous builder and they've, there's problems that they've had wrong, like you wanna know that so you can cater to [00:07:00] them. And sometimes you g- might be like, "Actually no, that builder was probably on, right. You might've been wrong."
[00:07:05] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Matt: But you at least can set an expectation early because like anything you go into, any relationship or any form of, anything you do in life and the moment you walk in, the first impression is everything. Yeah. So you want, you wanna, you wanna provide that to the client, so, um-
[00:07:18] Hamish: You, just before we move on, you, you touched on something, you, you brought something up there really quickly that maybe they were in the wrong.
[00:07:25] Yeah. I think it's really important- Yeah ... to call out because it's setting expectations.
[00:07:29] Matt: Yeah.
[00:07:29] Hamish: Uh, 'cause sometimes when, you know, clients, clients are clients, and we're very much like you. We've got these amazing relationships with clients, um, and ongoing post project- Yeah ... relationship with the clients because we're setting, well, I think we're getting better at setting clear expectations.
[00:07:47] We're getting better at communicating.
[00:07:50] Matt: There's a process.
[00:07:50] Hamish: Because, but there's a process around it, and really understanding what the pain points were.
[00:07:54] Matt: Yeah.
[00:07:55] Hamish: And then re-educating or educating the clients from day one is [00:08:00] so important. Set the expectation that you are there as the expert, that you know the answers, that you're going to guide them through this pre-construction process.
[00:08:08] Matt: And this is hard. If you're starting out for the first time running a business, this is any business really in the world that's some form of consulting or, um, client-facing. That, I put you into two baskets. You're starting a business, you don't wanna lose that client, so you do everything to please them, and you're gonna do stupid things.
[00:08:24] I've done it before, Hamish has done it before, and you are going to lose control at one point.
[00:08:30] Hamish: Could I, can I s- uh, a little bit- And I've done it. I'm, I'm gonna give you a little bit of an anecdotal, um, example here. So I was on the phone to someone, I'm not gonna say who they are, and I think they listen to this podcast- Yeah
[00:08:39] so they're gonna know that I'm talking about them. Uh- We should just name names. No, I'm not going to. The podcast that names names. I'm not going to. Um, young builder, a great fellow. I know he's a good carpenter.
[00:08:49] Matt: Yeah.
[00:08:50] Hamish: Um, you know, just on this journey as be- as being a, being a builder, and he's asking me questions around, um, the flat roof system for Pro Clima.
[00:08:59] Yeah. And [00:09:00] I just, I was unpacking the project a little bit more. I'm like, "Okay, cool. So it's just going into a box gutter into a parapet?" "Yes." "Okay, cool. Well, there's the thing that you probably want to think about." And then I'm like, "Okay, well this sounds like a really nice architectural home. What's the budget?"
[00:09:13] And he's like, "900,000." I'm like, "Okay, how big is it?" "270 squares." Oh,
[00:09:17] Matt: geez.
[00:09:17] Hamish: And I'm like, "Okay, so that's a $1.5 to $1.6 million project. Uh, I actually think that you're solving the wrong problem right now." Like, you're trying to solve a, a, a technical problem, which assumes that you've costed the project first, that assumes that you're quite down the path of an ACI process.
[00:09:37] You're actually solving the wrong problem right now. Like, all of that stuff can get solved later, but the question that you need to be asking your client right now is, how much do they wanna spend? Because right now, their $900,000 budget's not gonna touch the side of this building.
[00:09:50] Matt: And you've jumped the process there.
[00:09:52] Hamish: You've jumped
[00:09:52] Matt: the process there. You're excited. Yeah. And that's why they're so,
[00:09:54] Hamish: they're so normal. Yeah, and I said exactly the same thing. You're excited. And I only bring that up because setting expectations from the [00:10:00] beginning with clients is really important, and if you don't feel that you can or have really candid conversations with a client from day one, then they're not gonna be the client for you.
[00:10:08] Matt: Yeah, and, and, and w- which leads me to my point is, like, don't be afraid to walk away and say no. Exactly. Yeah,
[00:10:13] Hamish: yeah.
[00:10:13] Matt: Because, well, and, and I joke with clients, as much as a client picks us, we also pick them.
[00:10:18] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:10:18] Matt: And it's, and it's like any relationship. You, it's gotta be mutual. It should never be one way and, um,
[00:10:24] Hamish: uh- Well, just on that, I know I've talked to you about this before.
[00:10:26] In my, at the start of my ACI, there's this, you know, couple of nice little words at the beginning of it, and then it says, uh, "And we have a no dickhead policy." Yeah. "Congratulations, you're not a dickhead." And, and it's true, 'cause I, I don't wanna be waking up every morning dreading dealing or, or, or having conversations with clients, 'cause not only are we dealing with them during the design process, during construction, but for 10 years after.
[00:10:48] Matt: You got them, you've got them in your hand for 15 years.
[00:10:51] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:10:51] Matt: Like, we just had one we finished, two years pre-construction, two years on site-
[00:10:55] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:10:55] Matt: now 10 years sign-off. Yeah. So you need to look at it. The, the 15 years is a [00:11:00] huge amount of time. Um, and I think that- I- it's really important to be able to develop that relationship with the client where you can laugh, you can cry, you can show emotion, you can have hard conversations.
[00:11:13] Um, I, I think that's, I think that's something where I've learned over time, is saying, saying no's literally one of the most powerful things you can do.
[00:11:20] Hamish: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:11:21] Matt: And even if you had a contract you're about to sign, and I've done it before myself because I was, had an amazing job with the same situation and I'm like, "I'm out," because one, I saw issues with the contract, I just felt the client trust wasn't there.
[00:11:33] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:11:33] Matt: And ultimately it's the best decision I've nearly made as a business because, uh, I knew that I would've had a higher level of anxiety, my team wouldn't have wanted to be there, then everything starts to drop and fall, and ultimately it could have been gone back to start and said no. Yeah. And, and- And applied to another job and failed
[00:11:49] Hamish: and it unravels really quickly- Yeah ... uh, during construction, particularly towards the end-
[00:11:54] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:11:54] Hamish: when relationships are really strongly frayed.
[00:11:57] Matt: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Hamish: Um-
[00:11:58] Matt: And, and [00:12:00] legislation has now changed in Victoria where it's consumer first. So as of July 1, the, they can bypass you for a defect and go straight to the DPC to investigate you.
[00:12:08] So relationships matter more- More ... than ever.
[00:12:12] Hamish: One, 100%. And just on that, if the, if a client ever calls you about a defect, pick up the phone and get around there as soon as possible, regardless if it's your fault or not. Yeah. Just t- fuck
[00:12:22] Matt: you, send
[00:12:22] Hamish: me
[00:12:23] Matt: photos
[00:12:23] Hamish: on it, we'll know- You, you, you want to be there straightaway.
[00:12:25] Hey, Matty, I've been talking to a few people recently, and they're like, "You know what? You've been building with Pro- Proclima for years. Like, how do we get to where you are?"
[00:12:33] Matt: So we all started at level zero at one point, and we got there. But one of the things that Proclima have on their website is they have a library of so many details, from wall to roof to subfloor to window assemblies, for multiple different windows, on how to use their product and install it correctly, and is one of the, the best resources that you can find online to learn how to do this.
[00:12:53] And if you're an architect and you're not sure how to draw something, they've probably got the answer already.
[00:12:57] Hamish: And I think about, you know, 2018, [00:13:00] 2019 when we've, we, we first started getting into this, we had to trawl through all kinds of different documents. We had to
[00:13:05] Matt: make it up.
[00:13:06] Hamish: We, we, we had to make it up.
[00:13:08] It's all there for
[00:13:09] Matt: you. Yeah. The answers are free now. And social media's great, there's so many awesome videos and content out there, but the ultimate source of truth is the Proclima website. They have every single detail that you can imagine. And you know what? If they don't have it, you can email them and they'll help you solve it.
[00:13:23] Hamish: Damn right.
[00:13:23] Matt: So use Proclima, proclima.com.au if you need to reach out to them.
[00:13:33] Hey, I'm about to go on a journey with systems, and I'm working with James from BizTech Guru, who he was a guest on our podcast
[00:13:40] Hamish: He was, and I've actually done a lot of work with James in the past, and it has transformed my business from just being this classic clusterfuck of a building company to a systems orientated focused business And
[00:13:52] Matt: what he's, from understanding, it's all focused on builders Yep And we're going to be doing a live webinar with him coming up- Yep
[00:13:59] as part of this, [00:14:00] and it's gonna be a big introduction to systems and how it can improve your business
[00:14:04] Hamish: And you know the beauty about it? It is gonna be absolutely free. Yeah So keep an eye out for the dates. Uh, this is gonna be a really incredibly valuable workshop to not miss out on
[00:14:14] Matt: Yeah, so either shoot us a DM, um, check the show notes, but we'll put a link below here to show you how to sign up.
[00:14:20] So- Cheers ... make sure you sign up
[00:14:28] Hamish: I'm gonna ask you a question. What are some of the things that you look for in clients?
[00:14:32] Matt: Um, it's hard because I have- I'm a very gut-feel person. Yeah. I'll, so for my process, for example, is I, you'll send a form, I'll send you a form back. Within that form is embedded i- is a link to book in a 15-minute chat with me that's linked to my calendar.
[00:14:48] I just jump on the phone and have a chat. Yeah. That is the first thing. Within the first 20 seconds, I can gauge if you're for me or not, just, just the conversation and, um, the way that you, the... It's not body language [00:15:00] 'cause you're not in person, but the, the, the tone of the voice. Yeah. That, that is a big thing for me, and at that point I'm like, "Cool.
[00:15:06] Yes, no." There's another, a few other metrics, like location. Is it high performance? Uh, the loca- yeah, location, um, budget. Those, those sort of things need to tick, and let's ignore those for a second. But the second part, once you get past that meeting there, they will get a link to book in a coffee near my office.
[00:15:22] They come to me, and we sit down and have a coffee for half hour, 45 minutes, and that is simply a... It's not about the project. I wanna know you. I call it the first date. Um, it's actually, I think it's booked in, this is my calendar, it says, like, our first date. So I wanna know you because as, as... I need to know you're a person.
[00:15:39] Like, bring the kids, both of you. Anyone that's, the stakeholders involved in the project need to be there, not just the husband or just the wife. I want everyone because I don't build for one person in a relationship, I build for two.
[00:15:50] Hamish: And, and is there, is there certain, uh, I guess, personality traits or, uh, job traits that you're looking for?
[00:15:56] Matt: Yeah, don't tell me how to do my job. So I, that, that you can [00:16:00] get... When someone's telling me how I've built before, "I've done this and this is how you're gonna do it," and I'm always like, "Hey, slow down. Like, you've come to me for a reason. We're not there yet, but I'll take control of that." And if they keep pushing on that, I'll, it's a red flag.
[00:16:12] I've, I've literally had a meeting before as a coffee, halfway through it, I've gone, "Hmm, I just don't think you're for us. I'm just gonna call it now," and got the bill and left because they, they, I just didn't warm to them and- Yeah ... I already felt anxious, so.
[00:16:25] Hamish: It's really important as well because, like, I, I like to think about, um, the pre-construction phase as the relationship building phase.
[00:16:32] Matt: It's dating.
[00:16:33] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it dating, and, and you get to test the relationship- Yeah ... along the way.
[00:16:38] Matt: Yeah.
[00:16:38] Hamish: For us, the first test is that- Uh, do they fill the application form out? Yeah,
[00:16:43] Matt: they don't want to go home and sleep with him on the first date.
[00:16:45] Hamish: Well, 'Cause if, 'cause if, i- in my experience, if someone's pushing back on filling out a form-
[00:16:51] Matt: Yeah, I-
[00:16:52] Hamish: then it's gonna be challenging.
[00:16:53] Matt: So, so but the thing is, you can't not do that with me. Um, you have to fill the form to get to me.
[00:16:59] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:16:59] Matt: So [00:17:00] and even if you have people call office number and we'll direct them to the website to fill it out. Yeah. Um, architects, yeah, we'll direct you to, uh... Look, that can be a little bit challenging at times because I need the client to fill it out and understand that the architects have a process, and we do try fitting with the architect process, and that's where it can become a little bit murky, but ultimately we need that form filled out.
[00:17:20] It's one so we can put it on our CRM system- I, I don't- ... so we can track it ...
[00:17:23] Hamish: I don't mind if the architect fills it out. However-
[00:17:26] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:17:26] Hamish: the, the, the phone call is with the client.
[00:17:28] Matt: Yeah, yeah. I have to speak to them. Yeah.
[00:17:30] Hamish: Yeah. 100%.
[00:17:31] Matt: I'm, I, I, if I'm, if you're a client, another thing, probably one of the biggest things-
[00:17:35] if you're a client and you want me just to hand over the key at the end of the project, you're not gonna be there, I'm not for you. Yeah. Like, I wanna become part of your family. So, uh, I want you to know my family, know who my wife is, and my kid, uh, and the dog. Mm. And like, I want you to know those sort of things.
[00:17:51] Hamish: So we, we're just, and, and this is not to exclude anyone else that doesn't fit into this kind of perfect avatar client of mine, but I've actually, in the past, some of [00:18:00] my best clients have been either business owners, so busy business owners, or medical professionals.
[00:18:07] Matt: Oh, I love lawyers. Lawyers are my favorite.
[00:18:09] Hamish: Well, so b- busy professionals- Yeah. Yeah ... busy, busy business owners or medical professionals. I just find that, um, generally speaking, and again, I've got plenty of other clients- Yeah, yeah ... that don't fit into this category, so please don't think that if you don't then, um, that, that we're, we're, we're not a builder for you.
[00:18:25] It's more I'm speaking to the builders out there who are listening to this and following along. Yeah. That I think it's really important that you figure out what your avatar is.
[00:18:35] Matt: Yeah. '
[00:18:35] Hamish: Cause then you can train your marketing to that a little bit more.
[00:18:37] Matt: 100% agree.
[00:18:38] Hamish: So, you know, if I say to myself, "All right, well, I want to be focusing on surgeons," right?
[00:18:43] Right. Because they're busy, they, they get health, they- Cash cows I didn't say that, you did. Um, yeah, and look, budget's a thing too. No, no, yeah, yeah. But budget is a thing too. I'll just be realistic. Yeah, that's fine, but I'm, maybe I'm not as explicit as that. No,
[00:18:56] Matt: exactly.
[00:18:56] Hamish: Um, but you know, they're busy, they're conscientious, [00:19:00] um, and they also trust in the fact that we're- Experts
[00:19:04] experts. Yeah. Uh, and again, if you're a client out there, please don't think that I'm not gonna build for you if you don't fit into this category. We're just finding in our experience- Yeah ... some of the best clients we've had are busy professionals, medical professionals, who understand and val- and value- It's, yeah
[00:19:20] and value time.
[00:19:20] Matt: Yeah.
[00:19:21] Hamish: That's the other big thing for me. Um, yeah, as, I'm just more speaking to the, the builders out there trying to sort of work out who their ideal client is. Get that down on paper. Who are some of the people that you've- Yeah ... dealt with in the past who were awesome, and what are the characteristics of that?
[00:19:36] And how can you tailor your marketing to that?
[00:19:38] Matt: Yeah. And I, and that's something that I did years ago- ... and still continue to tweak on. So you wanna look at location because most- Totally agree ... you don't wanna be travelling all across Victoria.
[00:19:47] Hamish: Locations,
[00:19:47] Matt: lo- location. Locations. Um, you wanna look at, like, age demographic.
[00:19:51] Like, there's no point marketing towards a 21-year-old because most likely, unless they're a crypto king, they're not gonna be building anytime soon.
[00:19:58] Hamish: Yep.
[00:19:58] Matt: That you wanna, you wanna pick the [00:20:00] people, like, so for me, I'll be honest, it's a mum and dad. Like, I love, uh, I love families. Actually, I, I don't mean that as a- Yeah
[00:20:06] as a, um, the s- the standardized person. So I, I want a family. That, that is big for me. I do like younger people because they're more my age, so I feel like I can click with them a little bit better. Having said that, I've got some a lot, clients who are a lot older. Um- There,
[00:20:21] Hamish: there, there's, there's this, you know, and I think regardless of age, regardless of profession, like if you're a builder out there listening to it right now, find something in common with your client.
[00:20:31] Matt: Yeah.
[00:20:32] Hamish: Because that commonality, one, breaks down so many barriers- Yeah ... so you can actually have a conversation outside of the nuts and bolts of building, but you can actually build a relationship. So find something that you like doing. I've got a, you know, and I know Hamish, my client, listens to this, he goes surfing.
[00:20:50] I love surfing. I joke about when, when we finish this home that I wanna, I wanna still be able to whip down, have the key to a shed and go out surfing. So it's just finding something that [00:21:00] you've got with the client that you can talk to outside of building, because that relationship building's so important.
[00:21:06] Matt: And that's why I go back, it's dating. Like, you... And clients should date multiple builders and multiple architects. Like, find who clicks for you. We're all gonna be the same price, as within a, like, we're gonna be so close.
[00:21:17] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:21:17] Matt: But it is who you feel that you are just gonna click with, and sometimes I'll say, "I might not be for you and I might not be the best option for you."
[00:21:25] Yep. And that is so okay.
[00:21:27] Hamish: A- and do you know what? We have experienced something between us, uh, with a client. Yeah. They ended up choosing you, and it was, it was a really interesting experience because we got on great with the client. Yeah. We had a great relationship with the client, and the client ended up choosing you.
[00:21:43] And I remember when she called me, I could tell that she was quite nervous, and I go, "Look, at the end of the day, I know you're gonna get an amazing result working with Matt. If you feel you have a better connection for whatever reason, go with Matt." Yeah. "That's fine." And, 'cause that's really important, 'cause if there's something about me or there's [00:22:00] something about my team that you didn't like but preferred it in Matt, choose Matt.
[00:22:04] Matt: I just lost out a job to death. Like-
[00:22:06] Hamish: Oh, there you go ...
[00:22:07] Matt: it's, so she, she obviously clicked with them better and that's, I would 100% support that.
[00:22:11] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:22:12] Matt: I think that we really just need to make sure that, that it's, it's such a big thing and, um, I had, I had a potential client chatting to me the other day and they've got three architects they're looking at, and they can't work out which one to pick.
[00:22:22] And I said, "They're all, they're, they're all the same cost." I was like, "Well, who do you like the most?" And they said which one. I was like, "There's your answer." There's your
[00:22:28] Hamish: answer,
[00:22:28] Matt: yeah. Like, what are we talking about here now? Um, you've got to really think about this from a, a different perspective. And you, you've got a relationship with them and it's who you can be honest with and trust and who's gonna tell you the most correct information and, um, you feel that is gonna be open and transparent with you the most.
[00:22:45] And they're just such key things that you, you get them wrong, you got 15 years ahead of you that just, you just don't wanna be thinking about. That, that can be, most people, what- A quarter of their lifetime?
[00:22:57] Hamish: Hame, I think
[00:22:58] Matt: it's been the biggest game [00:23:00] changer in my business since building a passive house.
[00:23:02] Hamish: I could not agree with you more.
[00:23:04] Now, we're obviously talking about Wonder Build.
[00:23:06] Matt: Yeah. And, and we know a lot of builders using it, and honestly, it's one of the biggest questions we get on social media is, what is it like being on Wonder Build? And honestly, it's a real hard answer to give because it's just transformed everything. It's one place for everything, and it's at a point now where I haven't got 15 or 16 different apps to run my business for my team.
[00:23:23] We're nearly down to one.
[00:23:24] Hamish: Yeah, it's incredible. From your initial estimates all the way through to project management, Wonder Build, one-stop shop, absolute no-brainer.
[00:23:31] Matt: Yeah. Even our leads, we're now sending our leads through there so we can track clients the moment they reach out to us. So track your variations, which we know builders struggle doing, your costings, sending out quote requests.
[00:23:41] It has everything and they're one of the best teams at implementing future things to improve the system, and it's also now integrated into Claude if you're big on AI.
[00:23:49] Hamish: Yep. Game changer. Wonder Build, get on
[00:23:51] Matt: it. Yeah, so sign up wonderbuild.com
[00:23:57] Hamish: So I'm just gonna change tack a little bit and ask you a [00:24:00] question. What are some of the things that you expect your clients to do during pre-construction?
[00:24:06] Matt: Trust us. That's number one, just trust us. And loop everyone. Don't hide information. Don't be the gatekeeper, like we are. So I don't want you to gatekeep budget.
[00:24:15] Don't tell us you've got a $1 million budget when you've got two and a half, because that makes it really, really hard for us at that point. We're, we're not incentivized to get this higher. We're actually incentivized to get it down so we get it on site faster. Well, you're,
[00:24:26] Hamish: you're incentivized to build it.
[00:24:27] Matt: Yeah. So the quicker I can get on site, the more profitable the project is. So because we chew up a lot of time in that early stages of just time. So I... That is, that is one big thing. Um, I think, trust the people around you, ask the right questions, and don't be afraid to ask a question. Like, no question is a dumb question.
[00:24:49] I'd rather you ask the question, and even if you think it's stupid, I answer it, and then you're at ease.
[00:24:54] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:24:54] Matt: Um, I think that's a big, big thing, is just... Yeah. What have, what have you got?
[00:24:59] Hamish: Well, I mean, I, I [00:25:00] think about, like, the people that are involved in pre-construction. Mm-hmm. So obviously, we've got the client, we've got the designer, and, or the design team, which would include interiors as well, and then you've got the engineer, and then you've got thermal modeling, and then you've got the builder.
[00:25:12] Matt: Yeah.
[00:25:12] Hamish: Like, you can't gatekeep information from one to the other.
[00:25:16] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:16] Hamish: Like, there needs to be free-flowing conversations between everybody.
[00:25:20] Matt: Yeah.
[00:25:21] Hamish: Because, uh, and sorry, I forgot the, uh, landscape designer as well, and the landscaping.
[00:25:25] Matt: Just get your team. Everyone who you think is necessary on that project.
[00:25:27] Hamish: So the communication, n- a- and, and I'm not saying share everything, 'cause sometimes conversations from the landscape is not relevant to the interior designer.
[00:25:37] So just be conscious of, of that, of, of just CCing everyone into an email and just assuming everyone needs to know. Be conscious of who needs to understand what, and not, and, and don't gatekeep information from one to the other. Yeah. Or don't put one against each other.
[00:25:54] Matt: Yeah. And don't... So this, it kind of flows in well.
[00:25:57] So because I did a r- a bit [00:26:00] of a review with my team recently about a project we just finished that was an ABIC contract. Now, I've done them before. The, the feedback I got from my team that was, they didn't feel as close with the client because everything had to go through the architect. Now, it's interesting, because the client felt they had the closest relationship with us, and we felt we had a very good relationship, but I didn't feel like it was as close because noth- not everything went through us.
[00:26:22] So it really started to open my up and I looked back at other ABIC contracts, and I didn't feel that was the same in those other ones.
[00:26:27] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Matt: But I felt- In that form of contract, I've, I've started to r- ask the question is like, because we've got to send everything to the architect, and that's fine, and then negotiate them, I just felt there was just this like, it was like a bridge you had to get over every time.
[00:26:42] Hamish: Well, it's not, it's, and it's not free-flowing either.
[00:26:43] Matt: No, it's, yeah. And you don't know what's been said, and you, you gotta put a lot of trust in the architect. And I felt that that was a, a part, and it had nothing to do with the build or the contract, it was the fact that like, from the relationship of how we pick clients, I felt that was a barrier.
[00:26:58] Hamish: Yes. I, I agree with you. [00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Matt: And, and, and it was strange. Like, I, I, um- We still, and we still spoke to them multiple times a week. Uh, it's just, I d- I don't know why, it was just feedback that I had from multiple team members individually. Yeah. And they, I don't know if they talked about it together, but that was something that I was like, "Okay, interesting."
[00:27:18] Um-
[00:27:18] Hamish: So trust, budget. Have we got anything else? Because I, I think the-
[00:27:23] Matt: Location ...
[00:27:24] Hamish: location.
[00:27:24] Matt: And the biggest thing is just, yeah, don't be afraid to walk away, um, because you will get hurt, you will waste a lot of time
[00:27:31] Hamish: potentially. And that, you know what? And that goes the same for the client as well. If, if the client's not feeling it- Yeah
[00:27:37] don't feel like you're, you're locked
[00:27:39] Matt: in. No, this is, it's, it's like, yeah, again, I said it multiple times today, it's like a relationship. Like, it's, you need to be able to have a very, um, robust conversation at times. You, times you're gonna laugh and cuddle, and times it's not gonna be fun conversations, and that's what a normal, healthy relationship looks like.
[00:27:56] Hamish: If you can't, if you're not in a [00:28:00] position as the builder or the client to have a challenging conversation-
[00:28:04] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:28:04] Hamish: then the relationship's not strong.
[00:28:06] Matt: Yeah.
[00:28:07] Hamish: Because if you think about, think about the emotions that are involved in pre-construction, and then think about the emotions that are involved once big chunks of money's coming out of your bank account and decisions are for real.
[00:28:20] Like, they are tangible.
[00:28:21] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:22] Hamish: Like, you need to be able to test that relationship in pre-construction, challenge relationships in pre-construction, challenge decisions, challenge cost, challenge budget. Location's not something you can challenge. But, like, if you think about, like, being able to test that relationship over a six to 12-month period, when you get to construction, like, the relationship's been tested, 'cause there's going to be times-
[00:28:45] Matt: Which is almost the hardest part
[00:28:46] Hamish: well, there's gonna be times during construction where variations will come up-
[00:28:49] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:28:50] Hamish: that are unforeseen. Yeah. And they're never nice as a builder to have that conversation with a client, but, you know, if we find a big rock in the ground, it's not our fault.
[00:28:58] Matt: You've already got that rapport. You've [00:29:00] already got the
[00:29:00] Hamish: trust.
[00:29:00] That's what I'm, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.
[00:29:01] Matt: One of the things I look for, actually, is, can I just sit with you on a Friday afternoon and have a, like, have a drink? Can we go, can we go for a drink? And not that I do, it's, it's there, could I classify you as a friend?
[00:29:13] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:29:14] Matt: And I think that is a big one, because it shows that you click.
[00:29:17] Are you my type of person I just hang out with? And I'm thinking now in my head of all my clients right now, is I can't think of one in the last eight years that I wouldn't just do that. And I think that is, I have, like, for me, I know you have a different rule. I won't build for friends and family. You will.
[00:29:33] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:29:33] Matt: But I, I want to, would you be a friend? Would I, would I consider you, I probably consider most of my clients that you don't become clients, you actually become someone in my life.
[00:29:43] Hamish: Do, do you know why I can build for friends? Okay. 'Cause I treat my friends exactly how I treat my clients.
[00:29:49] Matt: Yeah, okay.
[00:29:50] Hamish: And, and I'm just very clear about, okay, w- we're, you're, you're coming to me because you perceive that we do a good job I know we do a good job and you trust in [00:30:00] what I do
[00:30:00] Matt: I think it's a financial thing.
[00:30:01] I just don't want to be chasing an invoice from them. I think that's my biggest fear.
[00:30:04] Hamish: You know, I've never had an issue.
[00:30:05] Matt: Yeah. And, and I probably wouldn't expect to. It's me.
[00:30:07] Hamish: I've had, I've
[00:30:07] Matt: had,
[00:30:07] Hamish: I've had one, I had one issue over the years, um, and I just know there was some stuff going on, so I kind of was a little bit, um- I was a little bit more lenient with it, but I, I, I love building for friends.
[00:30:19] I love being able to go back-
[00:30:21] Matt: Yeah, okay. But I feel like I go back and one thing we do now, and actually Jack from, uh, now MBH, he messaged me because we put this, uh, one of my team put it on social media, end of the project, my whole team go to the handover and he's like, "I love this." And so that is probably how I can sum up, sum up a good project.
[00:30:37] If my whole team are wanting to go to a handover at the end of a project, and they can have the chats to client about anything, like we're in the handover, we didn't even talk about the build. We're talking about the footy and the kids and what they're watching on TV. That is how I define a good relationship.
[00:30:50] When I'm talking to you as a client and I'm getting a message from you at 9:30 at night, not about the build, being like, "Got a good TV series?" I, I classify- Yeah ... that as, as, as a success. I've
[00:30:59] Hamish: [00:31:00] actually just written that down because it's generally just me and the supervisor and maybe someone- I took
[00:31:05] Matt: the crew down twice now, and I just felt it was, um, a nice wrap off just to reward everyone for the project, and we just- Yeah.
[00:31:11] I really- ... go
[00:31:11] Hamish: have a
[00:31:11] Matt: lunch after
[00:31:12] Hamish: it ... I really like that. I, I think, um, I, I've, I've written this down because I think that's something that I'd like to have a chat with my team about.
[00:31:17] Matt: So, so I'm gonna give one before we wrap this up, because I'm gonna try to keep these episodes a little bit shorter. Um, and we'll get to our MEGT mindful moment in a second.
[00:31:25] I, I have a client, um, Sarah and Shane, which is our retrofit Rafa Range Passive House. And to define how and what I now look for in a client, and this is a level of trust I want in you, Sarah became my mortgage broker halfway dur- during her build. I gave her my access to every bank account that I have financially so she could see how I was sitting, and there was that level of trust that I knew she would do the right thing.
[00:31:50] That is what I want in my client, that every client is now my Shane and Sarah avatar, and I've got amazing clients elsewhere, but that is what I look for, and that is the level of trust that I [00:32:00] want in someone. So you've heard it here first. If you are signing Matt up, he is gonna show
[00:32:04] Hamish: you his bank accounts.
[00:32:05] Matt: No, I definitely won't, unless you can get me a lot of money to borrow stuff, and not that I need it anymore because I've built mine. No, I, yeah, I, I know,
[00:32:12] Hamish: I know Sarah and Shane, uh, and I, and I've obviously interviewed them, I've, I've talked to them before they talked to you, and they are incredible human beings, and they, in my mind, are your perfect avatar client.
[00:32:21] So,
[00:32:22] Matt: so this is, and I know I wanna wrap this one up and keep them short, but interestingly enough is that we probably trade clients more than... My biggest reference point for a while was
[00:32:31] Hamish: you. And vice versa.
[00:32:32] Matt: Yeah, so s- and that's the part of saying no, that like, "Hey, it's in Warrandyte," for some odd reason, "Oh, we listened to the podcast, we want you to build a house.
[00:32:40] Where is it? It's in Warrandyte." So go Hamish. Like, like- S-
[00:32:44] Hamish: sometimes people don't put two and
[00:32:44] Matt: two- No, I know ... two and two together. Yeah ... but like, but like, but for me, it's like I'm not gonna go out there. That's his-
[00:32:49] Hamish: Yeah ...
[00:32:50] Matt: he's out there. So I, I think that's the other part. And what's one thing, if I can't build for you, no matter, if I don't, even I don't click with you, I will always find you someone.
[00:32:57] I will always pass you on to someone.
[00:32:59] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:32:59] Matt: [00:33:00] Budget-
[00:33:00] Hamish: For the, for the most part. Yeah. If there's big red flags in there, then if there's big red herrings running through there-
[00:33:05] Matt: Handled like, "
[00:33:05] Hamish: Hey, you should contact Hamish" ... may- maybe, maybe, maybe we don't. Yeah. But, um, yeah, I, uh- 'Cause I actually do remember there was one project that was kicking around for a while and went through all the high-performance buildings I know.
[00:33:15] And it was just getting handballed- Yeah ... from one to the next.
[00:33:18] Matt: So, um, MEG Mindful Moment, uh, MEG, Australia's largest apprenticeship experts. Now, this, this one is
[00:33:27] for... I've got one here. I know we've spoken about this. You're a, you're a tradie. You finish your apprenticeship. You're gonna start doing some cashies or out by yourself. Do not be afraid to say no. Do not be afraid to walk away from a project if you think you're gonna be taken through the ringer. Now, at some point you will, I promise you.
[00:33:46] It's one thing I promise you, is you are going to, um, have a hard conversation, and you're gonna do something wrong, and you're gonna blame the client, and most likely it's your problem. Most likely it was you that was the problem. [00:34:00] All right? You haven't communicated enough, you haven't been clear enough in your quote.
[00:34:03] But what I want you to do is don't be afraid to say no. If you don't feel like it's for you- You might get excited. Stop and think, respond, don't react to the project. Don't sign them up there on the spot. Have a think and go, "Hey, uh, yeah, I'm gonna get a few hundred bucks, but is it really worth it?" I think that's a big one for me on that, so.
[00:34:21] Hamish: Yep. When I'll, can I comment something to that, too? Go
[00:34:23] Matt: for it. '
[00:34:23] Hamish: Cause I've, I've just... I, I agree. Um, walking away and saying no's really important. If you do, uh, if you do embark on a, a job where, you know, everything's lining up from a, from a client point of view, from a budget point of view, trust from both sides is probably the second thing- Yeah
[00:34:41] that you really wanna foster. You need to trust the client, they need to trust you. Yeah. Like, how you go and then, you know, foster this environment where trust is, you know, key, and that includes understanding their budget, you being honest with the budget- Yeah ... you being honest with the expectations of setting on site.
[00:34:56] That's everything that builds trust.
[00:34:58] Matt: Don't tell them what they wanna hear. [00:35:00] You're the expert here. Yeah. Do not just tell a client what they wanna hear- Yeah ... 'cause it will come back and bite you. I've done it. I'm sure you've done it. Um- Well,
[00:35:07] Hamish: I, I'm gonna give one more example before we, uh, before we wrap up.
[00:35:10] I went and saw a project the other day. I said to the client, "How much you wanna spend?" "800." And I said, "Well, there's no way in hell this is a under a million dollar project."
[00:35:18] Matt: Yeah.
[00:35:18] Hamish: And I said, "If you don't feel comfortable with that, then there's no point in me continuing this conversation. I'll leave now."
[00:35:22] Matt: Yeah. I
[00:35:23] Hamish: said, "My gut is it's gonna be 1.1 to 1.2."
[00:35:25] Matt: Yeah.
[00:35:26] Hamish: Set the expectation of, like, straight away of, like, not pandering to something that's unachievable.
[00:35:33] Matt: Yeah,
[00:35:33] Hamish: like- Because if you play that out, like, six, seven months down the track when you finally give them a price, they've still got $800,000 in
[00:35:41] Matt: their head.
[00:35:41] And it goes back to the conversation we had about, um, when they tick that box, "I haven't built before." They're not meant to know what things cost. They've heard it off a friend- Exactly,
[00:35:50] Hamish: yeah ...
[00:35:50] Matt: or they've heard it 10 years ago, their friend built for this. Things have changed. So you, you, again, you're the expert.
[00:35:55] You have to tell them what it's going to cost, and we will get to that in this series about how to give that [00:36:00] information, because that is arguably the hardest part of our job right now. But, but yeah, don't be a f- yeah, don't... If you hide something, and I'm not gonna say you're lying, you're eventually just gonna get called out.
[00:36:12] It, it, it, I promise you, you'll get called out and, and- You, you- ... then you've gotta dig yourself out of a hole
[00:36:16] Hamish: You, you're gonna have the conversation around money at some point. Yeah. Why not have it really early? Yeah. Yeah. All right.
[00:36:22] Matt: Done.
[00:36:22] Hamish: Awesome. Thank you. Thanks, mate. Cheers.