Not all developers are bad
When you think of developers, what are the descriptive words that come to mind?
For so many of us, developers are synonymous with greed and arrogance. It’s an unfortunate stereotype that the construction industry is rife with.
And although developers have earned this reputation, not all are created equal. There are some diamonds in the rough and Liam Wallis happens to be one of them.
Liam Wallis is the founder of HIP V. HYPE, a group that is revolutionising sustainable development in Australia. Their mission resonates powerfully: "to leave our cities and regions in a better condition than we found them."
Liam shared how HIP V. HYPE has evolved beyond traditional development to create an ethical, socially conscious business model that spans multiple disciplines. Their work combines boutique-scale sustainable apartments and townhouses with ambitious sustainability consulting, demonstrating how commercial success and environmental responsibility can coexist. A standout example is their award-winning Ferrars & York project - an all-electric apartment complex designed for both people and planet.
The conversation revealed practical insights into balancing commercial viability with sustainability. Liam explained how his team integrates research and industry insights to create solutions that exceed sustainability benchmarks while remaining commercially grounded. Their approach involves early community engagement, innovative design thinking, and a commitment to creating spaces that foster genuine interaction and meaning.
What makes HIP V. HYPE's approach particularly interesting is their holistic vision. Beyond just developing properties, they've created the Better Building Exchange - a platform for connecting and amplifying sustainable action in the industry. They're proving that development can be a force for positive change when guided by strong environmental and social principles.
For those interested in the future of sustainable development, this episode offers valuable insights into how thoughtful design and ethical business practices can transform our built environment. The full conversation explores detailed strategies for creating developments that serve both community needs and environmental goals.
LINKS:
Thanks to Hip Vs Hype for having us
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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Hamish: [00:00:00] We're trying to put a big barn in our property, right. To consolidate. There's three shitty other out dwellings on our property, which you just want to consolidate, make it a bit bigger. Have an office and a place where we can work. The council goes to advertising first. All our neighbors are like, yep, happy days.
That sounds amazing. You know, we've got reclaimed tin from, uh, warehouse in Collingwood. We've got a pile of reclaimed bricks ready to go on. We want to try and make it feel like it's been there for 50 years. Yep. Right. So go to advertising. And that's the first thing Council does go to advertising.
Liam: Yeah.
Hamish: I'm like, wouldn't you do that at the end when you've done all your checks and balances and made sure that it fits in with all the criteria from all of the overlays that are on the property? And then ask the neighbors. But you're doing it that first and then you are seeing if it's okay in the council.
'cause you've wasted everyone's time. Yeah.
Liam: But you know why they do it. No, I don't. What happens in my world is they will want to test the temperature of [00:01:00] community, the officers, in order to get an understanding of, um, what the elected officials, what their position is likely to be. Yeah. So when they're putting reports up to elected officials, they have an understanding of what the, like the likely direction of the.
Council's position will be, yeah, because there's this disconnect between the officers and the elected officials. Okay.
Matt: So what do they define as community then? Anybody who objects. But that, the thing is, what I get frustrated with is that it doesn't take into account the people who seem like, Hey, I love this.
Like, that gets pushed aside and ignored. Yeah.
Liam: But that's, but that's like, gets to the heart of one of the other problems we've got. Is that like people have lost an understanding of how the world works? Yeah. So the, the world's run by people that show up. You know? Yeah. And so if you don't show up and actively participate in the Democratic system, um, it doesn't matter what you say on social media, it just, it doesn't matter.
'cause it doesn't [00:02:00] influence the outcome. So if you are not showing up to council meetings and, and voting and, and, and getting involved in that process, the people who do show up are controlling the system. Right. Okay. Yeah.
Matt: It's people who have the most amount of time. So it's the retired people.
Liam: Yep. And of the people who understand how the world works, who or
Matt: don't have any friends who've got nothing better to do with their time?
Well, yeah, I'll say
Liam: it. I totally,
Matt: we're already going, but like we've already started that. I mean,
Hamish: I'm assuming we started the episode. Yeah, like, because its an, it's, it's, it's an interesting conversation. We, me throw to you 'cause you're gonna, you,
Matt: you've got a great question 'cause you are a developer. And words that are typically associated with developers are like, greedy.
Um, arrogant. Uh, what makes you different?
Liam: Oh, man. The, like, the perceptions of developers, it's such a shame because there's so much truth to it. Like, unfortunately, [00:03:00] uh, I've, I've worked with and for some of these people. And, and it's a real shame because like, trust is broken and, and that's across the entire system. I guess the trust is broken between community and the development industry.
Um, you know, trust is broken, you know, in part between builders and the development industry. So it's, it's, it's an incredibly complicated topic. What makes us different? The reason I'm a developer and, and it's kind of a long answer to this question, but. I, I guess my old man was a builder and growing up I'd been around building sites my whole life and he'd, he'd built big commercial projects.
Um, you know, Melbourne Central is one of the largest projects. He, oh, geez,
Matt: that's pretty cool.
Liam: He was on, and so that was like a five year project. So I was a young kid. I, I'd go to Melbourne Central, um, every school holidays watch that, that. Um, being built. It's obviously above Melbourne Central Station, so there's huge in ground component to that project [00:04:00] before the town.
Who was the builder of that? John? I remember that. You know, as a kid, I
Hamish: remember
Liam: that. Yeah. So it was Kumu gci, it was a Japanese company, um, Japanese construction company. So, uh, and Di Maru, the, the, um, you, you, you know, the shopping center, um, Japanese Shopping center brand that they were in there to begin with.
So this was like kind of late eighties, early nineties, sort of like peak Japan. Yeah,
Hamish: yeah,
Liam: yeah. Times and, and just exposed to that process. And I guess like that I got my affinity for buildings and building through that experience. It's funny you look back on those seminal experiences of why you attracted to.
You to some things. What captured your imagination as a kid? You know, for me it was definitely that process. I've got, I've got a little painting I painted in like grade three of Melbourne Central. Um, but I've still got at home. It's just, just a nice like reminder and won a little art competition back in the day.
And, you know, for, for my old old man's, um, on my, my stepdad's, um, 50th birthday, he took this awesome photo standing on [00:05:00] top of one of the SPIs in Melbourne Central. And it was just with an old, you know, um. Film camera, but he'd, he'd taken a, a, a stage shot from on the top of the spire. I kind of stitched that together in Photoshop for him, and, and that was his present for his 50th birthday, which was pretty nice.
'cause it was sort of like, it had captured that whole period. But yeah, like I, I guess I'd seen the commercial side of building, which was very, you know, financially focused and. Yeah, whilst I had a, had a real love for building, um, I, I, I, um, I, I went to university and, and, um, I originally got into art science.
Uh. Long story spent first year there, went out, went out with a girl who was studying landscape architecture, was exposed to the architecture faculty through that and, you know, ended up ditching, um, the idea of doing medicine and, and, and, um, and flipped into architecture. And that was the beginning of me sort of finding my path, I guess.
And you, you know, I have a [00:06:00] real sense of like. A strong sense of responsibility is what kind of underpins who I am. So medicine was an extension of that. I wanted to kind of like be part of the solution. You, you know, flipping into architecture gave, gave me a more macro view on what that meant. Like the, the city, um, the region.
Um, the role of buildings within society, the role of cities within society, um, particularly the intersection between buildings and cities and public health. So, um, the way in which we design, um, the shape of our city and how that can have po positive social outcomes at scale. Though those sorts of topics of real interest to me as part of the reason why we have our sustainability consultancy, we can, we can be at the table helping to make better decisions.
Um, at that macro scale. But yeah, look, I started off in architecture, did three years of architecture, spent some time in architecture. At the time you did three years, and then you did a year of practical experience. Kind of spent some time in a, [00:07:00] in an office, an architectural office. And yeah, I don't know, just, just, um, there's a real frustration I guess sometimes within, within architecture at the lack of control.
Like I think, you know, particularly in Australia, architects are really, they're heavily involved upfront. At at larger scale projects and there comes a point where, you know, the architect's design role is innovated across to a builder and architects really get cut out.
Hamish: Yeah.
Liam: And it's a real shame because it's really limited the role of the architect.
I. In larger scale projects, it's a little bit different on single res where the architect's still involved from where to go and they project manage and they deal directly with builders. And so that doesn't happen
Matt: in commercial. The architect's gone and does the builder then take over like the indemnity on the insurance, uh, indemnity on the design?
Liam: It's a really, it's a really good question. Um, 'cause under the design and contract, uh, design and construct model, essentially the principle, and this is all driven by financiers by the way. Yeah. It's like [00:08:00] the bank requires a, pretty much a design and construct contract to be in place, which is a guaranteed kind of maximum price.
The design risk is transferred from the principal to the head contractor. The head contractor then requires all of the sub consultants, one of which is the architect to you. You know, they, they require them for their PI insurance. Yeah. But essentially the design performance obligations are placed on the head contractor by the principal.
So the architects there pretty much only for their insurance. It's really perverse. So, so why would
Matt: you, why would you go design. One of those buildings knowing that they just want your insurance and they're probably gonna get, you're probably gonna get sued because on those massive buildings on a residential project, there are problems.
Yeah. Weekly. Yeah. I can imagine a scale of that size
Liam: that is like a really, really good question. I don't have the answer for that. There's a, there's a, it's a really good question.
Matt: I'm just, seems illogical.
Liam: Yeah. There. Therein lies one of the conundrums, right? So, um, [00:09:00] even our sustainability team, our better buildings team, when we're working on large projects, you know, we'll do the upfront sustainability advice, then we're innovated across to the head contractor.
Yeah. We then work for the head contractor. Our PI insurance is on the line for the work that we've done.
Matt: So you're still involved, like you can still continue to consult through that process,
Liam: you consult and depending on the principal's objectives, so. Um, you know, if the principal's objectives are profit maximization, that they're perhaps, um, the incentive between the builder's profit motive and the principal's profit motive is aligned.
Um, IE the, the head contractor, you know, pushing the consultants really hard to water down the design and basically get away with the bare minimum so the head contractor could carve out their margin. Is, is aligned with the, the principles. Yeah. Um, interest. For us, we have a carve out clause in our DNC contracts.
Um, number one, we [00:10:00] design a lot further before we hand over to a builder. So we'll design typically to 80 to 90%. Um, you know, standard industry practice might be 50% or less.
Matt: Yep.
Liam: Some developers, so you
Matt: de-risk
Liam: mate some developers designed to 25% and then handball it to the head contractor. Wow. Um, you know, off a set of renders.
You know, and then the head on track D actually you getting a surrenders and go, Hey mate,
Matt: go build it.
Hamish: Yeah. I, I, I mean, it's a lot different because you've got your, your client is the person that's gonna be ultimately living in the home, so there's a, you know, yeah. The, there's not pa there's, there's not enough parallels there to say, Hey, what would you do in that situation?
But, but that's
Liam: our client too, right? So our client as a developer. Whereas hit versus, hi, our client is our customer, the person who we've sold a home to. Yeah. And so we've gotta carve our clause in our Dan c contracts, which if say the architect or any, any one of our key consultants that have been innovated to their contractor, if they have concerns that the intent of the [00:11:00] design is not being followed.
There's a carve out clause that enables them to raise their hand with us as the principal. 'cause standard DNC contracts don't have that carve out clause. Yeah, yeah. That's one of the ways that we maintain oversight through that DNC process.
Matt: If that clause isn't there, you won't do the project.
Liam: If the head contractor wasn't willing to agree to that clause, we wouldn't, we wouldn't engage
Matt: them.
Yeah. Yeah,
Liam: yeah,
Matt: yeah.
Hamish: I. I guess shows your ethics and your values, like to actually have that clause in there. 'cause surely it would be a lot easier for you as a business not to have that clause in there.
Liam: Yeah, it's easier, but like, again, it comes down to like, what's our objective as a developer, you know, we, we are fundamentally an end user focused
Hamish: business.
Well, that, I mean, I think that was the question that you were trying to get to before, Matt, that that's the answer right there of what sets you apart. As hip versus hype as the developer, hip versus hype than other developers because you guys actually have the best intentions of that end user insight.[00:12:00]
Liam: Yeah, and, and look, I see personally, I see commercial alignment there. 'cause any, any brand that I. Am am attracted to outside of the built environment, they produce products and, and seek to maximize the customer's experience. If you do that, people continue to buy from you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you cut corners and, and you don't honor your promise, people aren't gonna continue to buy from you.
So there's fundamentally commercial alignment there. As a business though, we probably believe in a little bit more than that. Like we believe in. Every day when you, when you go to work, you get to make a choice. You know, am am I here to just make money or am I here to try and leave the world in a better place?
And fundamentally, we made the choice that every day when we come to work, we're gonna try and make the world a better place. And, and that just changes your mindset, right? You, you go the extra mile 'cause you, you do do work that you don't get paid for. And you [00:13:00] guys get this, you guys are doing the same.
Hamish: I'm, I'm sitting here smiling right now, thinking of all the, like the last two or three days for me have been SBA Mind for Builder podcast. Two things that I don't get paid for. Yeah. But. I fill my cup up. Yeah. I feel like I'm maybe in a very small way making a difference to the broader industry. Yeah. And like every time I, you know, do stuff like this, I think to myself, what are my kids gonna think of me?
Totally. Because I'm not that person out there. It's just all about money. Money, money. Totally. Because I could 100% make a fuck load more money if I was just concentrating on sanctum homes.
Liam: Yeah. No doubt about it. But like, where, where does that, where does that put you like. You know, is buying a Ferrari and a fancy Rolex watch and, and staying in five star hotels, am I, I gonna be happy with, with that?
Fuck no. No. Yeah. Am I gonna be happy surrounded by people who give a shit, who I have meaningful relationships with, who have a shared journey in, in, in trying to make the [00:14:00] world a better place? Matt, talk about fulfillment. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Hamish: Yeah, definitely. Look, listening to all your experience and I guess your, fuck, I hate the word journey, but I'm gonna use it anyway.
Like your journey to get to where you are now. Like, um, and I know what, one thing I do want you to touch on quickly is just, you had quite a bit of practical experience on site, um, during your architecture, and I think that's, that's an important piece before I go on to maybe talk about
Liam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well. Probably starts started even earlier than that. Like my stepdad, you know, he is a, he is a, got his garage and he is a bit of a nutty, nutty scientist, you know, so, uh, we, we always had a garage, always had access to tools. Um, probably did stuff that I should have at a, at an early age, like was, you know, using a drop saw at eight.
And what's wrong with that though? I think totally unsupervised.
Matt: Have we just gone into the cotton wool wrap the kids? 'cause now you've got kids. Would you let your kids at that age use a drop saw? I, [00:15:00]
Liam: I would, but I would give them a little bit more instruction than I was given. Right. Okay. 'cause I've like sharded bits of aluminum off and I'm pretty lucky they didn't get me in the head.
Hamish: Yeah.
Liam: Yep. Yeah. Um, but you know what I mean, like all been theirs. Yeah. They've all been there. Yep. Um, but fundamentally that experience of picking up a 12 inch angle grinder and knowing how much torque it's got. Yeah, yeah. Like, and having that in your hands is. Is pretty important.
Matt: Yep. I think kids have lost that though.
I think we're in a generation now where they spend all their time in front of the computer and there's a, I think as we go in time, there's gonna be less people that want to get their hands dirty and, and, and go down that road. And I think the trade industry's gonna be really hurt in the future.
Liam: I think we, it's already hurt.
Matt: I also feel like it's in our little bubble. It's not 'cause we find skilled people. Yeah, yeah. As a wider society. Maybe not.
Liam: Yeah. But you guys are, that, that like the answer to Amy's question I guess. Like, you know, I look, I had this background on tools and I'd always loved it. So I've always [00:16:00] liked how things are put together.
It's always something that I've been really interested in, but like. Three years in architecture. I spent three months in an office. It's like, fuck this. I'm not, I'm not doing this. And, um, a, a friend Alan Ting, who now works for Waddle, who's an incredible architect, is Alan's one of these architects that takes the time to figure out how stuff's built.
Hamish: Yeah.
Liam: As whilst he's designing it. And Ward All As a practice is really big on that intersection.
Matt: Yeah. Cool.
Liam: Um,
Matt: that John Ward? Yeah. Yeah. He's in house. Sound Angley. He's gorgeous
Liam: mate. His. Yeah. That, that officer's work is unbelievable. Yeah. Okay. Um, and Alan, Alan was working for
Hamish: 60 Degrees. Sorry, John. John.
John Water. That's, um, the Shearers Quarters down in at Bruny. Yeah, that's,
Liam: you can hire
Hamish: that by hands down, like one of my favorite. Buildings. It's on Airbnb. Yeah. Someone has said
Liam: that to me. You can like go down and, and have a birthday party with a bunch of,
Hamish: oh, you need get John Waddle. John Wattle, if you're listening, because I'm sure you are.
I'd love for you to come on.
Liam: [00:17:00] Um, well it'd be good to get a bunch of builders down to check out that
Hamish: Yeah.
Liam: Shed room because the details there and, and mate, we should do a SBA event. Less done. Alright, done.
Matt: So you, you speak about a bit, and I've spoken to in the past about not getting paid. And so you go to a meeting to try and push a development.
And I remember making the comment that you might have someone from the government there. You've got a, a planner there. Yeah. They're both getting paid to be there no matter what happens. You are not.
Liam: Yeah. Happens a bit.
Matt: And how, how does that affect the way that you then go about pushing a further, like a better building that,
Liam: oh look, I just look for alignment wherever I can in life.
Like you gotta look for win-win situations. Um, and so you might not be getting paid on the day, but. Like for, for example, for me, you know, because we have our sustainability advisory business, because we do a lot of work with government at all sorts of different levels, I can justify my time two ways. I can say, Hey, I've got a seat at the table.
I'm influencing better outcomes. Yep. That's number one. [00:18:00] Number two, hey, uh, I might meet someone who I can connect, you know, our team with, and, and maybe that leads to an opportunity for us to help, help out at some point. So it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's less. You know, corporate where it's like, unless this is gonna result in an immediate opportunity, I'm not gonna do it.
Matt: You pay the long game. But I think I
Liam: take a little bit of a longer view on building relationships. I think
Hamish: if you look at the evolution of hipper hype over the years, if you weren't doing the things that you do, the way you weren't getting paid
Liam: Yeah.
Hamish: The opportunities wouldn't present themselves.
Liam: You
Hamish: can't, you couldn't do it.
You can't do it. So, so you, by you doing, and look, I think about the things that we're, I'm doing at SBA, the things that we're doing with this podcast, they're creating opportunities. Yeah. To sit down and have conversation with people like you or whoever we get on here because this conversation might lead to something over here, which then might lead to something over there.
It will. And I think that's important for people who are listening to understand that. Yeah. Every time you do something, don't think about, well, am I getting paid for this? Yeah. It's like, [00:19:00] what are the opportunities that could come outta this?
Liam: Yeah. And also like, I think, um, I, I have full confidence that.
And, and this has been proven time and time again, is that there might not be an immediate opportunity, but I have full confidence that an opportunity will, will emerge.
Hamish: Yeah,
Liam: and it's like one of those funny things in life, you know, when you're stuck and sometimes you feel like you're, you're backed into a corner and you've got no options.
And the moment in time where you make that really difficult decision. Um, the day after a bunch of doors open. Yep. You know, I can't tell you how many times that's happened, but the, the, the confidence or, or to make that really hard decision takes, it might take six months and you feel like you've got no options.
As soon as you take that decision, mate, you wake up the next day and it's a mindset thing, like your shoulders are back, you're more relaxed. Yes. And then you meet someone and they're like, oh, I've got this going on. And, and, and boom, you're off. It's a big
Matt: brand awareness really, isn't it?
Liam: I, I
Hamish: don't, I'm sitting here smiling because I reckon every [00:20:00] single time that I've been had my back in a corner or in the bottom of a trough or whatever, like I look back on those moments with the most fondness because.
One, I'm in problem solving mode, and two, I'm like, I've gotta fucking fight to get outta here. Yeah. And there's no other option. Yeah. Than working through it. And you're right, you get on the other side of it and it's like the fucking clouds part. Yeah. And there's light everywhere and everything's positive.
But yeah,
Liam: I would say that's one of the biggest skills I've developed through time is getting comfortable. You never really get comfortable, but getting more comfortable with my back against the wall and trying to, trying to. Have an open mind as much as possible. 'cause like as soon as you narrow, you just, you just miss opportunities.
Yeah. You know, whereas like your back's against all, okay, I'm fucked. Like, you know, I've got a fair bit on here. But try and keep an open mind Yeah. Present and, and be aware of the, the opportunities as they emerge. But
Hamish: even, even just [00:21:00] have the understanding that this is a moment in time and then you Yeah.
Dig into your brain and go, hang on, I've been here 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 times before.
Liam: Yeah.
Hamish: And. I've always gotten out of it. Yeah. So it's just, you said, you said it's about backing yourself. Yeah.
Liam: And you build, you build little, you build little strategies, you know, like, it's like a fuck. You know, I've gotta carve out some time.
I've gotta go for a walk. I've gotta go for a surf. Gotta go for a ride. Gotta do something. Gotta get my, just don't watch
Matt: Carlton.
Liam: You don't watch Carlton. The fuck. We're not talking about football anymore. If
Matt: you want your anxiety, go back up. Just chuck foot. I'll stop. I'm,
Hamish: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm quite quit football.
Matt: Um, do you know
Liam: what's so good about, like it's so good seeing sauce back on the park though, because. Like, you know, I kind of feel like it's, we all, we have to hold onto. Well he's just, he's just passion. The passion and fire and like sitting for 12 months on the sideline clearly. Like, it just, it's gotta be a reminder to the rest of the team, like how lucky they are to be playing footy and like, get out on the park and just give it your all.
Matt: Yeah. Hi. Hi. My anxiety at the moment just [00:22:00] gone. I'm going to Perth for two games. I'm rap so I'll be delayed now. You do when you have your back up the wall. A lot of the conversations you are having, the answers are obvious. So they, they're quite frustrating conversations. 'cause you're like, guys, you need to see clearly through this, not just go through the bureaucracy and the crap that you guys have to deal.
How do you, how does that affect you? Because it must take a huge mental toll on you when you're like, the answers here, it's plain and simple. But that year could take a year for them to understand that that's the answer.
Liam: Yeah. Um, I'm still not good at this. Like when I was younger, I used to get way more fired up.
Have a yell, whatever. It, it doesn't work. No, it doesn't. It doesn't, doesn't, doesn't solve problems. Doesn't get people on your side. You know, at the end of the day, most people are doing what they think is right and. Most people are trying to do a good job. Um, I
Matt: think they're doing a good job. I think
Liam: they're doing a good job.
Fundamentally, it all
Matt: comes down to their bosses and stuff because if they're being taught that way and they're being say [00:23:00] hypothetically, cancel a forever, and that's what their boss has done, they just think that's normal. They haven't been exposed to other ways of doing things.
Liam: Yeah, totally. And, and then you come across some people that are just absolute pricks.
And they, they exist. I'm dealing with a couple at the moment, in my experience, genuinely, I reckon those people are few and fre, but they exist and they have a big impact.
Matt: So it's more, it's probably better to say that You prefer to, to disrupt.
Liam: Yeah. You know what I, I would prefer to enable. Good people and it as a strategy, so like the work we're doing together at BBX here, like just even making this space available for you guys.
Yeah. It's just like seeing what collectively you're up to and saying, how can I help in my small way?
Hamish: Yep.
Liam: How, how can I like do something? And then I rack my brains and I'm like, okay, where do we have spare capacity? Or where do I have something that's otherwise not doing anything? All right. And then if we can create alignment and enable good people like, like.
I, it's just that's gotta be your counter to the negative bullshit. [00:24:00] Yeah, totally. It's like the negative bullshit is here, but hey, how can I fill my cup up with as much positivity as possible? It's so
Matt: hard. Everything in these days, day and age is all negative hook, negative, click bait. Like that's all itself.
Yeah, you're
Hamish: really good at that.
Matt: Yeah.
Hamish: On your social media,
Matt: Matt, but it's what, it's what people get engaged by.
Hamish: Yeah.
Matt: Like I have no following of say the Daily Mail, but their shit pops up all the time. 'cause obviously people are clicking on it. Yeah. Because of the, the tagline like. The words they use is like brutal, honest, like confusion that people are like, oh, I need to see what's happening there.
Liam: Yeah. But I think there's like a deep psychological thing going on there where people have a negative, a negative news bias. Like Yeah, like it works, it sells, um, sex and negativity sells. Um, unfortunately, and I think it
Matt: forever will. I don't think it changes. I think it's pretty
Liam: hard coded. Yep.
Hamish: Um. So hip first hype, we talked about development.
That's just one small part, and we did touch on the environmental side of things. Yeah. But like hip first hype seems like, okay, so the overarching business, hip first hype, but there seems like there's [00:25:00] multiple different businesses within Yeah. The organization. Could you maybe expand on a little bit of that?
Liam: If I step back a couple of questions, like, you know, having spent three months in an office. Um, Alan Ting was working, um, uh, for six degrees in the office at the time. One of the directors there, mark Healy, was building his house in North Melbourne. He needed some, um, labor.
Hamish: Yep.
Liam: I just put my hand up and, and, and went and saw Mark and said, Hey, I'll, I'll do the laboring job, but we'll use sign off on my year of architectural experience in return for doing laboring work.
And he agreed to do that. So. The rest of that year I spent working on, um, mark Healy's house in North Melbourne with a builder called Frank, where's Alfredson and his crew. And he's a builder, kind of like you guys, right? Like he's building high-end architectural staff in order to achieve that level of finish, he's got, he's got crews of people who give a shit.
Yeah, his electrician gave a shit, his plumber gave a shit, his renderer. Really? It's really not
Matt: hard. You're already going to work. Like you're [00:26:00] actually making the choice to get outta bed. Wake up, have your breakfast, grab your coffee, get in the car, get to work. Just give you, you're already there. Just give a shit.
Liam: Well, I, like, I, I, there are just so many people that don't fit that boat. I know, but like you've
Matt: done, you've done 99% of the work to try to get there,
Liam: but you know how unique it is. Like, and, and I tell you what, like. I, I remember this renderer, Claude is fucking classic. You talk about hard set plaster and, and cement render this guy like, so as soon as those guys found out I was studying architecture, like at Smoko, I'm like screwed.
They're just like, this is how you do it. Don't do it that way. You do it this way. I'm getting that from everybody. Yeah. And then I like, it was, it was kind of seminal for me 'cause like it was really a process of going, what, you know, these people are experts at their thing, you know? And so who am I to tell them how to do their job?
Unfortunately, at architecture school, you don't get taught that. You get taught, you are the architect and you know best. [00:27:00] And, and so there's this intersection, right? So I'm at architecture school and I'm, I'm listening to lectures about Luke Cab Boozier and me Vanderau and how they're the fucking, the saviors of the world, of the modern world.
And going to architecture theory subjects, talking about masculine and feminine build all this bullshit. There is so much bullshit. Um,
Matt: I love where this is going.
Liam: And then, and then I'm going to site talking to guys who are absolute experts at what they're doing and have so much knowledge to impart on how to build a good building.
And then I'm going back to university and learning nothing about how to build a good building if I'm to be rudely honest. And so that intersection's really fascinating. So then, then that sets you off in a direction, um, of, well, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find what I can in this architecture world, uh, around what constitutes good building, what actually constitutes good building.
So then you start gravitating to, you know, some of the famous [00:28:00] architects like Alva Alto and shop architects, these groups that are really focused on the craft, that intersection between design and craft, and. And, and what it takes to build a good building. I feel like
Matt: that's coming back to residential right now though, because I feel like the architects we are talking to are that
Liam: more and more.
I think so. I think
Matt: I really feel like maybe, again, we are sheltered, but I feel the architects we get to come, come across our desk really would take the time to like call up that render, like, Hey, how would you do this?
Liam: Yeah. And I, and I think that's happening more and more
Hamish: and, and I actually feel that even in the last six months there's been, uh, even just a slight switch.
Yeah. To, to there being. Well, I'm talking about this whole collaborative thing, but I actually feel like we're actually starting to move into a space where there is collaboration. Yeah. It's not just a buzz word. No genuine collaboration. More genuine collaboration. And
Liam: that's, that's like, again, I, I think I, I don't see that at scale.
I see that in niche, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I do see it and, and you [00:29:00] know, like. You just gravitate. There's been these architects for ages, you know, like, again, Alan, who I mentioned before, he worked for Alan Powell out of university, Alan Powell's, one of the greats that pencil, um, architects who actually drew buildings and didn't draw, you know, in, in computers.
So like there's a tangible relationship between what you drawing and, and kind of a greater depth of knowledge required to how the building's put together. That's a really interesting point.
Hamish: Do you actually think that as you are physically drawing something. The building makes more sense to you rather than doing
Liam: it in CAD personally, pros and cons.
Um, but at a micro residential scale, I, I would say a hundred percent. Yep. I would say I've had some really, really interesting experiences where I've chucked on a set of VR goggles and, and gone through a bigger building and you start identifying. Like issues. So you, you best thing to say is, you know, when you, when you build a building and it starts [00:30:00] to, you, you know, come out of the ground and, and then you'll go to get the plaster on or, or like you'll see a critical detail then your face and you are like, oh fuck, that's not right.
And then, and then, okay. And then there's probably five different trades that intersect into actually solving that problem. Yep. What I've seen with VR is you can chuck a set of goggles on a walk through a space and identify. Some of those points. Yeah, we
Matt: do that on a lesser scale with the BMX models. Yes.
I feel like one fell, the architect uploads engineering that that's a problem. That's a problem. That's a problem. That's a problem. We have a problem. We have a lot problem. Problem. The word, because it's like you're getting it early, so it's not a problem until it actually becomes a problem. It's just like, Hey, it's an issue.
Or that could be a problem on site.
Liam: Yeah. It really hard to pick up. But also from a design perspective, you know, I remember. Went to a mate's house that he built and he, he'd come in the front door and he's got these beautiful big bink windows to the rear of the house. And then he's, he's kind of got a double height space at the rear and then set back from that is the living room and had big steel beam coming across to pick up and bedrooms [00:31:00] above.
Yeah, this was above the kitchen zone and just the height that that steel beam had been set at, um, obscured, kind of like the. Um, the, the horizontal on the window and the whole thing just didn't quite work. And I reckon that, that to me was like, all right, we'd actually gotten into a model and stood at the entry point and thought about how that relationship
Hamish: Yeah,
Liam: between the height of the steel beam and the window.
Um, worked. You would've picked that up earlier. Yeah. And it was just one of those things and they, they're in every project, like, everything I've ever built is a detail that shits you.
Matt: Yep. Architects can't get everything. Right. I think that's also a misconception that they're drawing everything needs to work.
No, like they, they, they. They're totally okay to make mistakes like that's going to happen. It's complicated. Yeah. It's not that easy.
Liam: So like in answer to your question, really long way around Hamish, like working with those, those trades and builders on site gave me appreciation for the expertise that exists at all levels of the ecosystem and the [00:32:00] importance of deep collaboration.
'cause you've got the best outcomes when you listened to. The electrician, the renderer, the plumber, the, the carpenter, whoever it is. And, and it, it taught me a way of asking questions. And then, so when it came time to, you know, the objective of fit versus hype is to build better quality, um, more sustainable buildings, ultimately to leave.
Um, to, to, to make tomorrow a, a better place than it is today. So fundamentally, if we wanted to build more sustainable buildings, we needed that expertise really close to the business. Yeah. Um, and that was the idea behind setting up the sustainability consultancy alongside the development company if we wanted to be building the best possible.
Um, you know, apartment buildings, we could, uh, we needed the expertise close. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's why we set up the sustainability consultancy and that's really just morphed into a bigger business, which is interested in, in having impacted at all scales of [00:33:00] decision making. So we've got a better business team that helps structure up strategies and policies for business.
Um, that would be, you know, a listed developer right the way through to a small electrician. Builder. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so, uh, a strategy and a framework, um, as to how to approach sustainability, how to make decisions, really helping people understand why they're doing what they wanna be doing. Putting it into a framework to help them structure that thinking.
At one of our other team, cities and Regions, they work at the intersection between planning policy and sustainability. So that's at local government, state government level. Whenever there's any piece of policy work done that involves sustainability, which today is almost everything, which is great. Um, which is really good.
Yep. Um, that team has a seat at the table helping to design more effective policy. Yes, because that's a big one for me. Yeah. Because policy is written by people who, who aren't necessarily responsible for the outcome of the [00:34:00] policy. And, uh, just stop you for a
Hamish: second. What I, and what I'm loving about all of this is that all of the little different areas of your business hit versus hype are also drawing in on the knowledge of all the other people that work within hit versus hype.
Yeah. So it's almost as if. Hip versus hype is like this expansion of your experience since you were five years old with your, you know, at Don Roo. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a pretty, a pretty incredible, uh, pretty much, yeah. Um,
Matt: do you, do you think back, like in going back to where we started the conversation when you said you sort of jumped into medicine to be part of the solution?
Liam: Yeah.
Matt: Now that is, is that just by chance? It's now with Hit Vhi, you just wanna be part of the solution.
Liam: Yeah. And that's, that's what's always driven us. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, I'll give you an example, right? Like our Better Buildings team, which is the other part of sustainability, that's all that ESD and kind of more of the building stuff.
But like Marcus, right? Yep. So Marcus Pacifier certified. Awesome guy, [00:35:00] super knowledgeable, has taken the time to get himself a PhD, which you know, in this day and age is
Matt: epic. Like he's at that age too, not, not being like 70 retired, but the guy's
Liam: like, what is he, 32? Not even like, yeah.
Matt: But
Hamish: again, and still finds time for like massive like trips through Southeast Asia on his mound bike.
Liam: Totally. It's like, that's Marcus. Right? But I like Marcus. So he's gotten himself that theoretical understanding, like for me. I want to do what I can to give markets that practical understanding, so I introduce him to guys like you. And it's like we do stuff like SBA, we support SBA, so my buildings team can meet a whole bunch of builders.
Yeah. 'cause those builders, that was one of my selfish motivations for this whole thing. Like, I want my buildings team knowing a bunch of builders and trades who can help their them become better at what they do. Yeah. And hopefully at the same time we can help you guys. Yeah. A hundred. But like if, if my team's sitting in an office.
And not talking to the [00:36:00] guys who are actually implementing. Yeah. Their advice is useless.
Matt: So why isn't that part of the architecture degree? Because it, I think it's quite clear that it works. Wow. Like in anything, like you have experience on just being on site, you're going to gain on site experience. Yeah.
The whole issue I see with the architecture degree with what you're saying is there's no on onsite experience. You learn it all in the book, you go work for an architect, you learn the CAD stuff, the backend stuff, which you have to do. But why is there no push to be like you have to do. 200 hours on site.
Yeah. With the builder. It could be laboring, it could be working in their office, but it needs to be onsite experience signed off.
Liam: I don't, I don't know, like it's changed a bit. Um, probably like, I don't know. There was, I went to Melbourne University, which is quite, you know, big on history and, um, yeah, MIT is big on kind of theory.
Um, you know, Monash wind burn, so they're, they're a little bit more practical.
Hamish: Yep.
Liam: Um. But I've got like the perfect first year. I thought about this a little bit. I've got the perfect first year, a architecture studio [00:37:00] at high school. I was in cadets, right? They used to do scouts and heaps of camping and all that shit.
But the um, section of cadets that I was in was B Corp. And B Corp were the guys that kind of went out in the bush for 10 days and no tents. We just had hoochies,
Matt: geez. I would die. There's no cheese and wine,
Liam: but like do you get for Melbourne or come
Matt: I'm a princess. I'm a total princess.
Liam: But like setting up Huie in the bush.
Right? So basically just a tarp. So you got a single line and a and a huie like that is the best way to learn how to cite a building. 'cause you have to think. And if you don't get it right and it rains, you get fucking wet and all your shit gets wet. Do you know, I just.
Hamish: I can't help but be an awe of the simplicity of that.
Just that right there. I, it, it is just that right there. If every single architect, it would be epic. You know, and just really understood how to protect yourself from the elements really simply. Like we would not [00:38:00] have the shit that's being built out in all these
Liam: satellite suburbs right now. So, so where do you set your, your base, um, where do you set your string line?
Um, where, where do you hang? You, your, your edges. 'cause you can hang 'em in all sorts of different directions. You can pick up a corner and hang it off a tree. Like, and, and it all comes down to, oh, what's the weather for this night? What's the prevailing wind direction? Um, if it rains, where's water gonna flow?
I. What, what little trenches need to be dug in order to divert water around my, this is fucking brilliant. My base actually, this is brilliant. It actually
Matt: makes so much, it's really just broken down into its most simple form and I think, and
Liam: if you get it wrong, there's consequence and your wet should get wet.
And you're fuck, and then you're fucked for the next two days. 'cause Yeah, like once you wet, you wet. So if you don't get it right, you wear the consequence. I don't know, like it's a bit off. You know,
Hamish: you, I reckon I'm gonna take this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make my kids do this. Like I I back onto a state park and I could do this for my kids.
Yeah. Right now
Matt: you can probably do it for me.
Hamish: [00:39:00] I'll do it for Maddie Maddy, you can come along with my kids. You know, in fact, Darcy is gonna be teaching you. He would out camp me, he would out camp you.
Matt: It's really cool too 'cause you can have, suppose I'm a hot chocolate, my marshmallow as I'm happy where my house is just down there spot.
I'll, I'll bring Yeah,
Liam: you can have heaps of fun with it too. 'cause you can learn heaps of knots and, and all of that stuff. And Yeah.
Matt: You like should be day one of architecture school. Like we just, even we are gonna do it in a Yeah. In a controlled environment. Like set this up, go work it out. I
Liam: reckon that way that would the coolest year one subject.
Uh, hip verse hype design
Hamish: school coming out,
Liam: people picture, which
Matt: is, so why haven't you bought into an architecture side of things that you like? 'cause you are trying to be part of the solution and you seem to have, I would say most, if not all the answers. Why haven't you gone to general residential architecture?
Hamish: Do you
Matt: think you can have
Hamish: more impact doing what you're
Matt: doing now?
Liam: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah. And you can't do everything.
Liam: Can't do everything. That's one of the things in life. You can't do everything. I like, I've, I got two young boys now. I got a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old and, and. A really big focus for me through [00:40:00] this period when they're young is like I've actively stepped back from a few things that I was doing to make sure that I give them time.
Hamish: Yeah.
Liam: And so. There, there, there's a limit. And, and I've, I've just made a choice, like I want to be present through this time. Yeah. Um, 'cause I'll only get it once and
Hamish: 10 good summers. How, how, how did 10 good summers, how did you step back? And that's some of
Matt: the issues. That's something that I'm like grabbing our first in June.
Like how did you actually actively step back? Because I trying to work that in my head right now.
Liam: I very simple. It's kind of a similar question to ask myself within hip as hype, like, is this. Particular thing that needs to be done, a good use of my time or could, or is it a better use of someone else's time within the business?
That's a very simple question. Is this the best use of my time? Mm-hmm. Uh, then you make a decision. No, it's not. Um, then who's, who's better placed to do it? Okay. Then that's a delegation thing. So that's just understanding how to manage your time. From, from a prioritization [00:41:00] perspective, it's just saying no to things that I would've said yes to.
Yeah. Um, and feeling okay about that because I actually want to get home before the boys go to bed. Yep. 'cause you know, I've only seen them. You know, oh, I've only seen him for an hour that day. It's like, I'm not okay with that. Like, I wanna, I wanna get home and see him. Yeah. Um, it's, you know, we're setting the business up in Sydney at the moment, so I'm up in Sydney a bit, but it's like consolidating a trip to Sydney into two days.
I'll fly up in the morning, I'll stay one night, and I will jam pack those two days. Yep. Um, and I'll get the late flight home the next day, so I'm there. In the morning when they wake up. Yep. So it's like stuff like that, you just, you just think a little bit differently. You learn from
Matt: your mistakes. Like, oh, I could, I could've got that earlier if I did.
I need to stay that night.
Liam: Yeah. And, and stuff like, you know. Like my me time at the moment, like I play, I play bit of golf. I grew up playing golf. I love it.
Matt: Amy loves golf.
Liam: I golf what I play, I each of their [00:42:00] own. It's just, it's, I find it really technical and cathartic. Right? Like
Matt: is it actually cathartic though?
Really? Yeah. When, when you hit, for me, it is hit it three, three holes to the right.
Liam: For me it is like, it's just one of those things, but whatever, whatever's your recipe, man, and, and I've done all sorts of things over the years. I've ridden bikes of ski. Kind of surfed and done everything at, at the moment it's coming back to a bit of the roots 'cause it's manageable at the moment with the boys.
But I'll, I'll get up really early on a Friday morning. I'll go play, I'll be back in the office by 12 o'clock. I'll close out Friday. I do it Fridays so that my weekends are like family time. Ah, that's awesome. Um, and I work, work, you know, you work later. You know, once the boys are in bed, you get some work done so that you can kind of free up some time for yourself.
And then, you know, on the weekend it's like, uh, I gotta be as present as I can be.
Hamish: Yep.
Liam: Um, easier said than done.
Hamish: I was just about to ask you like, I feel like there's. All three of us are probably cut from a very similar rug in that our brains are always very active. [00:43:00] Yeah. And I know I struggle being present with my kids, you know, and I find it.
I do. And then probably a bit of advice to you, Matt, like 10 minutes a day of undivided attention, like change the dynamic with your kids, like you would not even understand. Yeah. Like I noticed I was drifting a bit from Darcy for a little bit and I put my phone down. And just asked him, how's your day?
You know, what's going with the Minecraft? This little things that you know, you might not be interesting. He finds yeah,
Matt: he finds interesting.
Hamish: 10 minutes, honestly. 10 minutes. I'll sit down and play with Phoenix for 10 minutes. My below and I, we, we might not build anything. Yeah. But it's that 10 minutes.
He's crawling all over me. He's putting shit together, you know, like, but it's undivided attention for 10 minutes.
Liam: It's so funny, like how, like our perception of what constitutes presence and engagement versus like what? They really love. Mm-hmm. I'll give, give you a good example. Like two nights ago I had to, I just had to go down the office downstairs and, and, and fix a shelf [00:44:00] and, um.
I could have gone down and done that by myself. And I was like, come on, boys. We're going downstairs. And, you know, gave, picked up the, the tool bag and gave, gave him the
Matt: drop saw and just go cut that
Liam: Greg gave the 2-year-old a little shifter and, and, you know, gave the four, 4-year-old must a little job.
And, and we went downstairs and, you know, like I, I just did it. Quickly. Yep. And they were down there with the tools and they pulled a drill out and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like mate, they were o Yep. And that was 10 minutes, like say. And I honestly like that wasn't necessarily undivided attention either.
Yeah. But they fucking loved it.
Hamish: Yeah, she totally, totally true.
Matt: As a developer, the legislation's changing around these developer rules, having to withhold money that's going to essentially make it. So, so essentially these rules are being brought in to make hold account developers accountable for the defects that happen in the works.
Is this gonna drive the price of living and housing up?
Liam: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah. 'cause they've just gotta put it somewhere like they're not [00:45:00] gonna pay for it.
Liam: Yeah. It's a shock. It's a shocker. It's like, I know why it's, I know why.
Matt: And you probably ethically agree with it. I
Liam: know why and all the rest of it, but like, just even the simple maths on it, right?
Like it's $2 million, isn't it? Well, 3%. Oh, geez, 3% bond on construction costs. So you, you know, you, you, you're running a, um, you know, $50 million, um, project. At the back end of the project, you're having to put aside one and a half million dollars. You know, the opportunity cost on that capital. 'cause capital like.
Yeah.
Matt: Yeah. You also got interest against that on a loan.
Liam: Well, if, if it's bank interest offset against your home loan, it's 6%. If, if, you know, if, if it's capital that you could otherwise deploy into a future project, it's significantly higher than that. Yeah. If, if it's mezzanine debt that you've got, um, you know, you might be paying 15% on that.
The equity rate of return on that sort of capital is higher than that. So like there's a material cost to [00:46:00] compartmentalizing that capital. Well, the problem we've got at the moment is the perception is that like developers are killing it. Fuck, there's lots of money involved, but it's all relative. Yeah, there's a
Matt: high amount of
Liam: risk.
It's super high amount of risk, particularly at the moment, and I, I can't think of a residential development project that's been completed in Victoria within the last three or so years where a hundred percent of the apartments have been sold. And in a development project like that, your profit sits in the last two to three apartments that are sold.
So until you sell those two to three apartments, there is zero profit. Wow. So it's, it's just you buy the land, you pay consultants, you all the sales and marketing costs, you fight, cancel all that stuff. The time cost of capital through that entire process. Then you engage building, you build. Um, so you spend money for four years and then.
Pretty much in one day, you get [00:47:00] a capital inflow. Now, if you've got residual stock, there's no profit until you sell your residual stock. And at the moment in the market, what we have is a situation where developers have got bank loans on residual stock in order to to extract some of that money.
Hamish: Right
Liam: now, what this policy is saying is instead of that developer being able to go and redirect that capital into creating a future project, we're gonna see a considerable amount of it in a bond facility.
That would just reduce,
Matt: is that earning interest
Liam: or
Matt: no? Would it offset the, nah, 'cause
Liam: it'd be kind of, you know, like what a term deposit facility at the moment. Percent like two, three, 4%. It's fuck all like, so like, yeah, I get the idea. I get where it's coming from. The key question is here is that are developers necessarily the ones that are responsible for the lack of quality in the system?
Um, and it is. Policing that end of it [00:48:00] necessarily gonna result in improved outcomes. Um,
Matt: because how do you hold the builder accountable during the whole stage?
Liam: Well, this is the thing, right? But then also you've got complexities around how, how, how do people who have genuine claims. Access the capital.
'cause I, I can tell you this now, the only people that are gonna win outta this process are the lawyers that are administering that. The way in which that money's allocated, right? Because you're gonna end up with shit fights. It's gonna take a lot of time. I, I see what it's trying to do. I don't necessarily see that it's super effective.
Like for me, there's some bigger picture structural issues at play here, which is the skill of labor on commercial sites is nowhere near good enough.
Hamish: Yep.
Liam: There's a whole upskilling piece there and that's, that's again why I wanted to get involved with you guys is like, guys like you, what's the best way to solve this problem?
Is it trying to educate at scale or is it trying to scale up people with great cultures? And I think part, and personally, I believe part of the solution is for guys like you and your networks to look at [00:49:00] how you guys can scale a bit and have an influence on. You, you know, motivating the, the, the average tradie to just do a better job.
Hamish: Yeah.
Liam: Um, 'cause that's a real problem on commercial flights. There are guys that just, I made it, kills me, kills me around.
Matt: Well that's going through a cold little issue at the moment. Like that's getting cleaned, dried
Liam: out, walk around our sights and like there are guys there that just do not give a fuck.
They do not give a fuck. I
Matt: reckon there's, there's another episode Yeah. A whole nother episode that we could chat with here. That that
Liam: one's just like, you know, part of your, your mission, right? Yep.
Matt: But it does. Thank you very, very much for going on, mate.
Liam: Cool. Yeah, thanks
Hamish: Liam. Really appreciate it.