What is the end game of building?
“Do we want 1.2 million crappy houses?”
Jesse Clark threw that out early and it landed like it should. Because that is the real question sitting underneath every housing target, every policy announcement, every “we need more supply” headline. More homes is not the win if we are locking in decades of discomfort, mould risk, and expensive fixes. Quantity without quality just becomes a bigger problem, faster.
That was the tone of this chat with Jesse from pro clima. No big intro. No overcooked agenda. Just us asking the questions builders actually ask when the cameras are off. What is the end game here? What are we aiming for? And why do we keep building houses that need fixing before they have even had their first winter?
Simple and Repeatable
Jesse kept coming back to a phrase we love because it is the opposite of most building industry advice. Simple and repeatable.
Systems that can be done again and again, by real crews, on real sites, in real weather. That is where quality actually scales.
We talked about pro clima resources like the moisture management guides, and the difference between theory and what actually works in Australian conditions. The goal is not to reinvent the wheel. It is to stop the wheel falling off.
Moisture First, Always
If you have ever dealt with mould, rot, or a wall that smells wrong, you already know this. Moisture management is not a nice extra. It is the whole game.
Jesse talked through the basics that get missed. Vapour permeable structures. Ventilation that actually works. Control layers that line up. Details that do not rely on luck. A lot of builders get pushed into focusing on energy targets, but Jesse’s point was that none of that matters if the building is not moisture safe.
Because the fastest way to ruin a “high performance” home is to trap moisture in the wrong place.
Energy Codes and the Bigger Debate
We also got into a debate that sits quietly under a lot of NCC conversations. Should energy even be part of building codes?
When the industry chases numbers without understanding the building envelope, you can create unintended consequences. Airtightness without ventilation. Insulation without a moisture strategy. Compliance without durability.
Jesse’s take was balanced. Energy matters. But it cannot be the only thing we measure. And it cannot come at the cost of healthy buildings.
Is There Such a Thing as the Perfect House
At some point the conversation got a bit philosophical. Is there a perfect home to aim for? Or is it always a moving target?
Jesse talked about tradeoffs. Urban living. Cost. Climate zones. Lifestyle. The reality that Australia is not Europe, but we can still learn from European building science if we apply it properly here.
The “perfect” house is not a single template. It is a house that performs for the people living in it, in the climate it sits in, with the risks it will face over time.
This episode was a reminder that innovation is not always about new products. Sometimes it is about getting the basics right and doing them consistently.
We have been on our own learning curve since we started taking wraps and membranes seriously back in 2018, and we are still learning. Jesse is one of those voices that helps you keep your feet on the ground while still pushing forward.
LINKS:
Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima
MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt
CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Matt: So this guest doesn't need any introduction.
[00:00:02] Hamish: Jesse who?
[00:00:04] Matt: Isn't he probably the smartest? Huh. Look, he's already smiling.
[00:00:07] Hamish: No, no, no, no, no. We had the smartest person on yesterday- Yeah ... and that
[00:00:11] Matt: was Villy. Oh. Villy, yeah. Yes, so yeah, so- That was Villy.
[00:00:14] Jesse: That's true, yeah.
[00:00:14] Matt: Yeah. So we have Jesse Clarke, the smart guy from Pro Clima that everyone knows, that wrote, uh, the Moisture Management book, which a great resource.
[00:00:24] Is it now called the Blue Book? Is that... What's the difference between the Blue Book and- No, the Blue
[00:00:27] Jesse: Book was a different concept. No, it was the Australia Study was a residential-focused guide on how to build a decent house. So- And the Blue Book was a whole bunch of construction systems that we had so many questions from the Woofy users and people trying to invent different, um, layers of construction systems, how you layer the insulation and membranes, and people just wanna do things different because they wanna be clever.
[00:00:54] And you go, "Okay, if you're gonna be clever- ... then you need to do a calculation and work out if it actually works."
[00:00:58] Matt: Simple shit works, yeah.
[00:00:59] Jesse: [00:01:00] Yeah. Well, don't, don't come back to us
[00:01:02] Matt: and say-
[00:01:02] Hamish: Simple, repeatable ... "I've come up with this." Yeah.
[00:01:03] Matt: Simple, repeatable. Simple, repeatable. Well, that's it. So 140 mil walls, Intello, Extasana, can you go wrong?
[00:01:09] Jesse: Work out... Yeah. Well, that's right. Work out what works in your climate zone, and then simple and repeatable. Yeah. Or as our sales manager, or our GM in, um, New Zealand would say, "Rinse, dry, repeat."
[00:01:20] Hamish: Yep. Rinse, dry, repeat. You should-
[00:01:21] Matt: I like that ... why don't you have... You've got, you- th- you've got dry as a bone. Maybe that needs to go on the membrane.
[00:01:26] You could- Rinse, dry, repeat ... yeah. So- Just ki- it kind of works in two elements. But,
[00:01:32] but most people are- There we go, Gus, the marketing communications is sitting here smiling. We've just given him a bit of a tip.
[00:01:36] Hamish: So the, you, th- this whole study that we're talking about was a, was, I don't know, in, in, in the world that we operate in was a, was a big deal, right? What was the genesis of it?
[00:01:44] Like, 'cause from... I've heard all these sort of different stories about why you did it, and you did it in your own time, and all that. Which
[00:01:49] Jesse: book? The-
[00:01:50] Hamish: The Australia Study ... Australia. Australia Study.
[00:01:51] Jesse: Oh, why did we do it? Because, uh, that's the Pro Clima method. We go out there and we put a Australia Study into every market that we go into before we-
[00:01:59] Matt: [00:02:00] So there's a New Zealand one as well?
[00:02:01] Jesse: There is a New Zealand one, yeah. It's a little bit thinner, but yeah.
[00:02:04] Hamish: Yeah. And what is it? Just for those who haven't read it, what, what is, what is this book? What is this r- research project that you did? It's
[00:02:10] Matt: a, not a book, it's like a great resource.
[00:02:12] Jesse: The Australia Study is an outline of how to build a house that is highly efficient but also healthy.
[00:02:21] Hamish: Yep.
[00:02:21] Jesse: Uh, and the focus on the building envelope, of course, envelope first, and weather tightness, one of the key aspects to that, obviously stop the water getting in, so yeah, making sure that you've got all the details right. Uh, a lot about the hygrothermic, so temperature and humidity and how that flows through construction systems once you start to insulate those systems, uh, and make sure you don't entrap water vapor in the system, create high humidity, create conditions for mold growth.
[00:02:49] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:02:50] Jesse: And that varies across all climate regions in Australia, so obviously you need to have potentially different solutions. Everyone's looking for the silver bullet that [00:03:00] works everywhere in Australia, but it's very difficult. The same problem in the US- Very difficult to have one solution that works everywhere from the tropics down right down to Tasmania.
[00:03:08] Kind of
[00:03:09] Matt: got like a 90% silver bullet.
[00:03:10] Jesse: And we got a 90% silver bullet, yeah, which is what you were alluding to. You use a vapour permeable on the outside and a intelligent vapour control system on the inside.
[00:03:21] Matt: Except the tropics.
[00:03:22] Jesse: Except the tropics, yeah. And the tropics are a bit special, um, because their climate, uh, there's not...
[00:03:29] You know, you can't leave them out because that's, you know, it's
[00:03:34] Matt: like- Rude to Queenslanders ...
[00:03:35] Jesse: po- political suicide. You need to... If you're gonna be operating in Australia, you need to have a solution for everywhere, and that's what I said to the management. I said, "We can't just ignore the tropics. We need to tell people what works."
[00:03:47] Yep. Um, and this happens a lot in the regulatory space as well. It's like, "Yeah, but there's not that many people that lives there. Don't worry about it." But they're an, potentially a noisy minority, and you've got to address everything
[00:03:59] Hamish: for the tropics. Well, they're a [00:04:00] noisy minority and, and I guess, like instinctively if we- if we're insulating and putting a building wrap on a, on a, on a home in the tropics, like m- my mind goes to there's probably a higher chance of mold growth in clothes, not, not so much trapped in the wall assemblies, but on things that are kind of around your home because you've got such a higher humidity- Mm
[00:04:18] in the, in the building.
[00:04:19] Jesse: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely, and that, um, is, yeah, 100% correct 'cause there's, there's... I mean, in the tropics there's so much humidity outside. You gotta... If you're gonna air condition, you gotta keep it outside.
[00:04:30] Hamish: Yep.
[00:04:31] Jesse: And in my personal experience when, you know, going back a few years when we were visiting the, the Daintree and when, when the tourist center there, and obviously they had a bit of a problem, 'cause you walk, walk in there and the first thing you smell is mold, like the whole thing- And you know it's
[00:04:44] Matt: musky
[00:04:45] Jesse: and, and you know. But, you know, someone in my field goes, "Yeah, okay, I know what it is." But most people, it's just like, "Eh." Yeah.
[00:04:51] Hamish: Carry on.
[00:04:52] Jesse: That's what it is.
[00:04:53] Matt: So you said at the start, "What are we talking about?" Now, Hamish and I don't really prepare much for each podcast. We actually just [00:05:00] like to love... Whoever comes in, we like to just listen to what they have to say, and we adapt the conversation.
[00:05:04] Now, you've been on a lot of podcasts. You do a lot of public speaking. You present. What is something that we don't talk about enough that you think we should be talking about? We're gonna see where this takes us.
[00:05:17] Jesse: Oh.
[00:05:21] Hamish: You can take as long as you want, and
[00:05:22] Jesse: we can- Yeah ... edit out the, the pause.
[00:05:24] Matt: No, no, let's keep the pause in because- The pause ... it shows that this is actually a natural conversation
[00:05:32] Hamish: Or have you already solved all the problems?
[00:05:33] Jesse: W- I think, I think what, what, what we don't talk about is... And this, this comes up, uh, uh, comes up a lot in the, I guess the, the regulatory think- regulatory thinking space, which is the trajectory on where we're going and why. It's like, yeah, sure, what's the best possible building you can build?
[00:05:53] And it's like, okay, it looks like this. Is that where we need to be, and when do we need to be there? [00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Matt: When do we need to be there? Do
[00:06:01] Hamish: you know, that's a really interesting... I've never thought of that. Like, is there... And I'm doing this in my own business at the moment, right? So we're, we're trying to do- we're trying to plan for a year, three years, and then, well, what is it that we're working towards?
[00:06:12] You know, so we've got this 10-year goal, this ambitious 10-year goal, and we've actually started there, and we're working our way back.
[00:06:20] Jesse: Mm.
[00:06:20] Hamish: And then breaking that down, you know, into quarterly little things that we're doing to reach this goal. Is there, like, this perfect idea of what a building should look like in Australia that you know of that we're trying to achieve?
[00:06:32] Jesse: But that's, that's the g- the, the great debate, right? Um, what does that look like? And I don't wanna get into the, you know-
[00:06:39] Hamish: What should it
[00:06:40] Matt: look
[00:06:40] Jesse: like? What does it look like to you? Yeah ... I, I don't wanna get into the passive house, uh- What does it look like? No, but it doesn't have to be ... passive design debate.
[00:06:44] What does it,
[00:06:45] Hamish: what does it look like for you? Yeah. W-
[00:06:46] Matt: what,
[00:06:46] Hamish: what i- what is a home that every Australian, uh, should be living in?
[00:06:49] Matt: Jesse's the prime minister, what changes?
[00:06:52] Hamish: And, and take your proclama off for a sec.
[00:06:54] Jesse: Like, what- Someone asked... Did you
[00:06:55] Matt: ask me that last time? Did we? Yeah, but like- Someone
[00:06:56] Jesse: asked me that.
[00:06:56] Matt: Yeah, but like, yeah, what do... Like, you, you have a vision. You have a very [00:07:00] clear... Like, you're very intelligent. You, you have the answers yourself. What would you start with? What would be the 50-year plan, 25-year goal, 10-year target?
[00:07:13] We've
[00:07:13] Hamish: got him.
[00:07:15] Jesse: Well, no, but I mean, it, it, it gets into that. Well, th- there's a lot of... The, the big driver is carbon, carbon reduction. Yeah. And I mean, a l- it's, it's a little bit frustrating, uh, to me that, that there is so much emphasis on, you know, energy and carbon. I get it, it's important, but it's the, the health aspect and the reasons of, you know, what, what is the government there for?
[00:07:42] For the people?
[00:07:44] Matt: I think, I've said this to
[00:07:45] Jesse: Haydn- To, to make, to make the population prosperous?
[00:07:48] Matt: Well, I said w- I've s- said to Haydn this morning, like obviously the war's going on in Iran at the moment, and maybe I was a naive young... as I was 30, but I think as you get older you start to learn a little bit [00:08:00] more about how the world actually operates, and the governments really aren't there to protect the people.
[00:08:04] Jesse: No. But in theory they are.
[00:08:07] Matt: In theory, but they- So what
[00:08:08] Jesse: are they there for?
[00:08:10] Matt: This is a really, this is a really good, deep conversation.
[00:08:12] Hamish: Some- someone needs to be sitting there. But, uh, you know what? I, I don't know- Yeah. Yeah ... I don't, I don't know if we should- I don't know if we have the answer ... I don't know if we should go there, but you, you brought up carbon reduction.
[00:08:20] And I agree with, well, maybe I do agree, maybe I don't agree with you. I, I think that we probably should be focusing on how we're reducing our carbon and the, I guess, the, it's the embodied carbon, it's the carbon that already exists in homes, it's the carbon that takes, you know, our operational carbon as well.
[00:08:35] What is it that you're referring to when you're saying carbon reduction?
[00:08:40] Jesse: Well, it's, it, it's everything, right? Yeah. Okay. So, so that whole embodied carbon discussion versus the operational energy and, you know, any- anywhere you use energy generally requires, well, will have a-
[00:08:52] Hamish: Carbon ...
[00:08:52] Jesse: carbon
[00:08:52] Hamish: output. Car- carbon output, yep.
[00:08:54] Jesse: So reducing that is, you know, it's all grand, it's, it's good, but then [00:09:00] I've spent years, you know, speaking about, you know, energy efficiency and trying to push energy efficiency, and then it was the other side of it which we focus on, on Pro Clima, which is the moisture management, healthy buildings, and that was always labeled unintended consequence.
[00:09:18] I hate that. I hate that term so much, unintended consequence. Like, it's something that's a consequence of this regulation we're making, but we don't really want to address it right now, or don't care about it 'cause it's not important to the mandate we've been given.
[00:09:32] Hamish: Yeah, I mean, m- so what's going through my head right now is that I actually think about it the way that you think about it.
[00:09:38] I don't actually start at carbon reduction. I actually think about a healthy home first. Yeah. Or of a healthy building fabric first.
[00:09:43] Matt: What is a healthy building? 'Cause again, it's just another buzzword, like sustainability-
[00:09:46] Hamish: Well, so, sorry, sorry. A, a, a building- ... a building, like if we're wrapping it with the Pro Clima system, or you know what?
[00:09:52] Insert any-
[00:09:53] Matt: But just wrapping it with a Pro Clima system isn't- Well- ... because you see people just getting a weather board and nailing straight through again, and [00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Hamish: process- Okay. Let's, let's for a second- ... a trumped product ... let's for a second assume that people are following the right way to do it, right? Uh, 'cause what we're talking about right now is, is what does the perfect home look like that we should be living in?
[00:10:09] And we've brought up carbon reduction.
[00:10:11] Matt: In 50 years.
[00:10:11] Hamish: In 50 years, right.
[00:10:12] Jesse: Well, hang on. So the carbon reduction, that, that wasn't saying, "Oh, it's, you know, a low carbon home, therefore it's perfect." That wa- that was just a big driver of, of a lot of the discussions that happened- Yeah ... and the energy efficiency in the building code.
[00:10:24] What's energy efficiency doing in the building code? I mean, I- Can you
[00:10:27] Hamish: expand on that? Like-
[00:10:28] Jesse: Well, well- I'm, I'm keen to hear that ... the building, the building code is there for the health and safety of the people.
[00:10:35] Hamish: Yeah,
[00:10:35] Matt: amenity. Yep,
[00:10:36] Hamish: yep.
[00:10:37] Jesse: What's energy got to do with health and safety?
[00:10:42] Matt: Actually, it's, it's a cost of living thing
[00:10:44] Jesse: Or is it a cost of living thing, or is it the fact that you use energy to stay comfortable so that you stay healthy, healthy? So the comfort part is the health part, and then... Well, hang on, but why energy? To reduce carbon? So it's actually protecting the future of the people, because [00:11:00] if we put too much carbon into the atmosphere, then we create global warming, and then we can't grow crops anymore, and everyone dies of hunger.
[00:11:08] Matt: This is odd. It's like a, a aha moment, as you just said that.
[00:11:13] Jesse: Well, there's, that's a question that comes up for the, the, the anti-lobby. Like, why, why have we got energy efficiency in the building code? You- And to some extent, and I, I agree with them. Why do we have energy efficiency in the building code?
[00:11:25] Matt: Like, if you want to go spend $2,000 a month heating your home, is that your choice?
[00:11:30] Is that, is that what you're
[00:11:30] Jesse: saying? Or you, you, you spend $2,000 a month, or, uh, how did you say? A month? Yeah, if you just have it- $2,000 a month heating your home to, so that it stays within a comfortable range- Yeah ... so that you're staying healthy, 'cause comfort is a proxy for health. Yeah. If you stress yourself, you get unhealthy.
[00:11:46] Yep, yeah. Um, so you're spending $2,000 a month, and you can afford that, well, good on you, but you're putting all this pollution into the atmosphere, which is actually affecting everyone else. Uh, it's like passive smoking. But what if they,
[00:11:59] Matt: yeah, but what [00:12:00] if they went all electric and had solar panels?
[00:12:02] Jesse: Well, that's the other thing, which is where it's whole of home assessments is kind of going.
[00:12:07] Matt: Yeah.
[00:12:08] Jesse: We can have a really poor building fabric and put a band-aid on top, which is a massive solar system. Yes. Happy days.
[00:12:17] Matt: So you, so you're saying that we shouldn't be worrying about energy efficiency and start to, like, like, 'cause the anti-lobby would say remove it. Are you also technically kind of agreeing but on a different way of agreeing?
[00:12:30] Jesse: I'm, I'm saying that I can see their argument that why is energy efficiency in the building code? Yeah.
[00:12:36] Matt: I bet we should then expand on the health and amenities part.
[00:12:38] Jesse: And you expand on the health and, uh, emphasize the health and amenity, and back to what Hamish was saying, the Trojan horse, which comes in along with health, is a better building, which is low carbon.
[00:12:51] Hamish: Yep. So, so the out- the outcome- Or low energy
[00:12:53] Jesse: use ...
[00:12:53] Hamish: there's, there's these really nice outcomes of, of building a home that's sealed well, insulated well, ventilated [00:13:00] well, that the nice outcomes are, uh, you use less energy to heat and cool it, which reduces the operational carbon, and then off the, you know, comfort, as you said, proxy to health, we've got this comfortable, healthy living environment, which also then leads to health.
[00:13:14] So I don't disagree that energy should- I actually think, I actually think it's really clever ... energy sh- energy should get taken out. And, and, and more of a focus, yet agree with those guys, give them a win, and then let's just focus on building a better home.
[00:13:24] Matt: Mm-hmm. And the results, 'cause if you follow, we all know if you follow building science, the by, the, the by-product is energy efficiency.
[00:13:31] Jesse: If, if you build it as a healthy home, so you're not stressing the people, but then you could argue that I'm just gonna put a massive AC unit-
[00:13:42] Matt: Yeah,
[00:13:42] Jesse: this, yeah ... on the house, massive heating system, and I'm gonna constantly be in that comfort range. I'm not gonna stress the occupants, 'cause they're always in the- Band
[00:13:50] 20 to 24 degree band. Yeah. And I've done it using a crap load of energy. Oh, but I've offset that using solar, so it's okay. [00:14:00] Mm. I don't agree with it, because back to the discussion off the record that we're having yesterday, uh, about lean. Oh, what's this lean stuff and being efficient and, you know- Yeah
[00:14:12] being just using things efficiently and not wasting resources- I thought you meant you telling me to lose weight
[00:14:17] Matt: originally ...
[00:14:19] Jesse: and not wasting time. I know, the whole, the whole lean concept and what is lean, but, but that's, that, that's the same thing. It's like, why would you put a 50 watt, a 50 kilowatt air conditioner on and offset it with solar when you could do the same thing in a much smarter manner?
[00:14:33] Matt: It's like the big houses that you see that, oh, we've got a $3 million budget and got 150k hydronic heating system. We c- we could build a passive house and save you some extra cash.
[00:14:43] Jesse: Yeah, and you don't need the hydronic
[00:14:45] Hamish: system, no. I mean, take passive house out of it.
[00:14:47] Matt: Just, just, just, just, just- Yeah, yeah, yeah, just, I just use as a reference
[00:14:48] Hamish: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep,
[00:14:50] Jesse: yep. I mean- So, but that's, yeah, and then the whole debate around, yeah, what does the ideal house look like? Is it a passive house? Is it passive solar? Is it a house on stilts where you [00:15:00] don't have any air conditioning and we just live outdoors?
[00:15:05] Matt: But the, the, the- Ah, simpler life ... the times are changing- 2019
[00:15:08] where w- not everyone has, is gonna be living in a house. We look to, say, Singapore, like especially in Sydney, you look to Hong Kong and Europe, they're, everything wants some townhouses.
[00:15:17] Jesse: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not, not in
[00:15:18] Hamish: town, as apartments.
[00:15:19] Matt: Yeah, like sorry, apart- yes, apartments.
[00:15:21] Jesse: Apartments, yeah. So- Everything goes vertical, but that's a...
[00:15:23] Then you got the whole other debate over it, which is the, the urban sprawl and, you know, just wasting agricultural land on building houses.
[00:15:32] Matt: Yeah, yeah, and, and I, I think that I look at my daughter, who's nine months old, the only way she's gonna get a house is if I buy it for her or put away money for her now.
[00:15:42] Mm-hmm. There's no chance she buys a house. Like, prices on average, they say, double every 20 years, the housing. So my little crappy house that I bought in a shit suburb, I pay, like it's, that's, no one's buying that for $2 million. Like, so I look at it and go, "Well, the an- the answer has [00:16:00] to be apartments.
[00:16:01] There's no other choice."
[00:16:02] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, density. You have to increase the urban density, but there's all these overlaying, all these, um, discussions, uh, that overlay on the top of each other.
[00:16:11] Matt: Is that government getting in the way when you go back to the conversation of, like, what do governments actually do?
[00:16:18] Jesse: So in, in terms of housing and planning- Yeah ... and putting KPIs, I think we had a discussion a while back on the phone talking about, um, the, the metrics they, or the targets they wanna hit for new housing. Uh, and build that many houses at any cost. What was the number? Do
[00:16:35] Matt: you- 1.2 million houses in five years.
[00:16:36] There
[00:16:36] Jesse: you go. 1.2 million houses in five years. Do we want 1.2 million crappy houses, or 1.2 million houses that we can point to and tell our children we're proud of those houses?
[00:16:48] Matt: That's it. I'll tell you what, those, Hamish and I, that's our future retrofit market.
[00:16:52] Jesse: Yeah, correct. Like- But we're also creating a, a, a, um, a job for our children, right?
[00:16:57] Yep. And that job for our children to fix the crap. But the c- [00:17:00] but that's the, you know, back to the
[00:17:02] Matt: work that- Do you reckon that's considered? Do you reckon they go, "Let's actually... So we have jobs in the future," because construction is one of the biggest GDP or taxable incomes in especially Victoria. Do you reckon they actually think like, "Well, if we don't build them to that standard, we understand the future we're gonna be able to tax that set of trades," especially with AI coming in, is a pretty safe form of income?
[00:17:21] Jesse: I, I, I, I can't remember off the top of my head if that's been factored in, but yeah. So in- Oh, like- ... in 20, in 15 to 20 years, all these houses have to be retrofitted and- It's a massive thing ... now we've created a massive market. I
[00:17:30] Matt: know, I know, but like, like do you reckon, like just 'cause-
[00:17:32] Jesse: I dunno. I dunno.
[00:17:33] Hamish: It'd be so interesting.
[00:17:33] But I, I would, I would like to think so to, to- But that's not ... to have some faith in humanity is that that's not the case.
[00:17:39] Jesse: Well, correct, because then you take the, the, um, the case of Scotland-
[00:17:45] Hamish: Yep ...
[00:17:45] Jesse: that mandated, uh- Passive house ... passive house.
[00:17:48] Matt: Actually certified passive house.
[00:17:49] Jesse: Yeah. But, but saying that, well, what are we doing here?
[00:17:52] We're creating houses and places for people to live that are gonna be outdated in 5 to 10 [00:18:00] years. They're, they're not gonna be any good.
[00:18:02] Matt: If everyone's
[00:18:02] Jesse: built- So just build the best you know how to build. But the discussion we haven't landed on in Australia is what is the best, which is a question you asked me.
[00:18:09] Hamish: Do, do you think, and I'm- Yeah ... this is just a thought that's come to my mind. Like, and Australia's pretty young, right? We've, we've, um, what, 300 years, 200 years? I don't know. What- whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You know, you go to Europe, and there are buildings there that have been there for thousands of years. You know, they have always built things that have lasted.
[00:18:25] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Hamish: Whereas Australia doesn't really have a history of building things that have lasted. Yeah. Do you think that's like a, like a just a, this is like our kind of short-term housing solution, I'm gonna call short-term housing solution, I'm gonna label that volume build homes, is just a product of just our, how young Australia is?
[00:18:44] Jesse: Possibly. I mean, we don't have those heritage buildings and everything, you know, those old stone buildings sitting around apart from- Yeah ... you know, inner city suburbs of some of the capital cities. And yeah, we, we're not exposed to that, that whole historical [00:19:00] culture.
[00:19:00] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:19:00] Matt: I think we also think that like, oh, we don't get that extreme snow.
[00:19:04] I think
[00:19:04] Jesse: that- Well, that's as well. Uh, but that's always the argument. We- we're not extreme here. We, we don't have... Oh, that's not our climate, therefore it doesn't matter. You- And it's easier to pass things off like that. Yeah. Oh, it doesn't matter. I
[00:19:13] Hamish: don't, I don't know if you can talk about this, but I know that you sit on, is it the ABCB board,
[00:19:19] Jesse: or?
[00:19:19] I'm on the ABCB, yeah, um, committee.
[00:19:23] Hamish: What, what, what is some of the friction in there, and you don't have to name names, of, of why they're not advancing the code quicker?
[00:19:31] Jesse: There's a lot of different, um, points of view that need to be considered. But-
[00:19:37] Hamish: And do you have like
[00:19:38] Jesse: a spread of state? And, and part of that is...
[00:19:39] Well, well, part of that is if you do go too quick, you get market failure.
[00:19:42] Hamish: Yep.
[00:19:44] Jesse: If we said everyone has to build a house tomorrow- Yeah.
[00:19:46] Hamish: Yeah, okay ...
[00:19:47] Jesse: at .6 air changes at 50 pascals, how many people would actually be able to comply with that?
[00:19:53] Hamish: So do
[00:19:53] Jesse: you- And how many people would just go, "Stuff it, doesn't matter, 'cause no one's doing it"?
[00:19:57] Hamish: Do you agree-
[00:19:58] Jesse: That's market failure.
[00:19:58] Hamish: Do you agree to a [00:20:00] point then to implement these changes slow, and on some level, um, agree with the freezing or the slow
[00:20:07] Jesse: adoption? I don't agree with the freezing. What they should be doing is telegraphing the changes well in advance, 'cause this goes back to every time there's a new code update, all the states go, "Oh yeah, we're, we're gonna adopt it in a year's time."
[00:20:18] They kick the can down the road every single time.
[00:20:20] Hamish: But that kinda goes back to what we were talking about before. Uh-huh. There's no... There doesn't feel like there's this like, like what we're trying to achieve. There's not this sort of- No ... you know- 10 year ... pedestal home that we're all trying to get to.
[00:20:31] Jesse: Yeah, correct. You don't know, and there's a massive debate out there. I mean... And back to that, yeah, oh, is passive house the, the, the end game? Or is a really well sort of designed solar passive house the end game? Um, who knows? But well, should
[00:20:45] Hamish: we put a d-
[00:20:49] Matt: Sorry, not the right end game, 'cause I feel like we're playing a video game here, because we shouldn't have an end game because technology will change and things will change.
[00:20:55] Hamish: Correct.
[00:20:56] Matt: So it needs to be somewhat fluid. But-
[00:20:59] Hamish: You, you know [00:21:00] what? Sorry, I'm gonna, I'm gonna disagree with that. You can still have something you're working towards and it still change as new things come out.
[00:21:05] No,
[00:21:05] Matt: I know. I, I don't, I, I, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:06] Hamish: Agree. 'Cause my, say, my 10-year target might be my 10-year target today, but it might change next week. But you still need something that you can then plan around, and that's the issue at the moment. There's nothing that we're working towards. I mean, there's, there's nothing that we're working towards.
[00:21:18] Matt: That's politics. Like, they get four years terms, and it's all about the next election and next election and next election. That's the problem. That, that ultimately politics has become about the person and their reputation on the short term rather than a holistic long-term vote, uh, view, and that's... We had David on, so Dave came on, uh, liberal shadow minister for, in Victoria for building, and he just said we for s- And I, I kind of agree, just take the handbrakes off, and then let's then see what's going on.
[00:21:47] Have a very long-term view on things. Mm-hmm. Let's not, let's not actually, uh, just bring in things to win an election. Let's actually stop, think about what our future looks like, and then start.
[00:21:58] Hamish: Do you know what? I, [00:22:00] I g- I, I really enjoyed our conversation with Dave, and I'm sure by the time this comes out- Yeah
[00:22:03] people would've heard it. However, you know, it is great to sit here and have a really good conversation with someone, but if-
[00:22:08] Matt: They don't do
[00:22:08] Hamish: it ... if Liberal do get voted in in November, which is a pretty reasonably high chance it'll happen, what actually is gonna happen when the rubber hits the road?
[00:22:16] Matt: Yeah, no, I agree.
[00:22:17] Hamish: Like, you know, uh, i- is it, is it all, are they all the same? Is the-
[00:22:21] Matt: I would love politicians, if you say something, they do it, and you could be legally held responsible.
[00:22:25] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:22:26] Jesse: Well, that's, that's the question. Yeah, what... Will they do what they said, said they were gonna do? Yeah.
[00:22:30] Matt: But that, I think, I think, not going to into politics, but I think if you wanna go out there and say we're gonna do something, you could be legally held responsible as a person for not- Being accountable to your decisions.
[00:22:40] Yes. Like a CEO, like Hamish and I with our clients, like you with Pro Clima. Yeah.
[00:22:44] Jesse: You run the country, is the country run like a business, or? Yeah.
[00:22:47] Matt: Run, run like nothing. Um, so I wanna go back to codes and standards, because one thing that confuses me, and I kind of under- I understand why, but why should Jesse from Pro Clima be on the standards board?
[00:22:59] 'Cause wouldn't [00:23:00] Jesse from Pro Clima have Pro Clima's interests at heart? And the same as every- everyone else. Like, shouldn't they be independent people?
[00:23:06] Jesse: You, you, you always gotta declare, um, interest. Uh, you're meant to, 'cause then if anything does come out, um, then it's like, oh, but hang on, you had investments here, investments there, and you were saying this.
[00:23:19] So, as a-
[00:23:20] Matt: But as an employee, you're not technically invested in... Well, you are as a person for your job. Yeah. But from a monetary shareholder.
[00:23:28] Jesse: Yeah. So I would always declare, saying I work for a, um, building product supply company in weatherproofing membranes. So then if anyone later comes along and say, "Oh, okay, I can see why you're saying that," or, you know, if it...
[00:23:40] I was clearly trying to push something down that route, then
[00:23:44] Matt: And one thing Pro Clima are really good at- Pro Clima ... is you've, you do not sh-can other products, ever. Ever. Like, there's videos and photos you guys have shown me of other products failing, and you will not give them to me. Where some other companies would be quickly to jump onto that.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Hamish: C- c- just getting back to that, um, you know, who, why Jesse sits on the board and why other people sit on the board, I think it's really important to have lots of different stakeholders. I agree. Like- Yeah ... from, from all different facets of the building industry, if they're gonna be making, um, decisions on how we build homes.
[00:24:18] Because you, you need, you need that kind of balance of opinion on something, because someone over here from the steel, you know, industry might say something that sort of sparks something in your brain and go, "Oh, hang on, I actually get that. All right, that makes sense. Thanks for bringing that up." And vice versa.
[00:24:33] Mm-hmm. So I think it's important to actually be in- involved in a, in a conversation where people are actually challenging what you think.
[00:24:39] Matt: It's a cost thing, though. It's not like they have the biggest budget to work with either. So, like, they rely on companies to do the R&D to then present, I'm assuming, as well.
[00:24:47] Jesse: The, which
[00:24:48] Matt: entity? The board. Like, the board. Um-
[00:24:51] Jesse: The codes and standards ... mainly through academic organizations, which may be supported by companies.
[00:24:55] Matt: And they... Yeah. And we spoke with Ariana yes- yesterday- Yeah ... which will be a podcast episode. [00:25:00] Do they have to disclose if-
[00:25:01] Jesse: Disclose where they got their funding?
[00:25:03] Matt: Yeah.
[00:25:03] Jesse: Um, most of the time it probably is. Yeah. Okay. Um, if, if you read the research outputs.
[00:25:08] Matt: Yeah, in the journal article
[00:25:10] Jesse: or something. Um, yeah. And, and yeah, where it was funded or who supports it.
[00:25:14] Hamish: I think one thing that we didn't touch on before, Jesse, what is your background?
[00:25:17] Jesse: I'm an engineer.
[00:25:18] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:25:19] Jesse: Uh, as a- So I did an undergrad- undergraduate engineering degree at University of New South Wales.
[00:25:23] But I actually started off, uh, that was in photovoltaics, so solar energy.
[00:25:27] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:25:28] Jesse: But don't ask me too much about solar energy, 'cause it was a long time ago.
[00:25:31] Hamish: Yeah. So engineering degree is quite broad.
[00:25:35] Jesse: It was more of an electrical engineering focused degree- Yep ... if you wanted to, you know, go broader. So your degree is kind
[00:25:40] Matt: of totally relevant to where you've ended up?
[00:25:42] Jesse: Uh, yeah, pretty much, yeah. Apart from if you put solar panels on the roof.
[00:25:46] Hamish: Did you do a PhD? No.
[00:25:47] Jesse: No.
[00:25:48] Hamish: No
[00:25:48] Jesse: PhD.
[00:25:49] Matt: How'd
[00:25:49] Hamish: you learn? Do you reckon Aus- the Australian study would be close enough to a PhD?
[00:25:53] Jesse: Well, that's what Clarence MacA- McAlister said. He said- Yeah ... "I should give you a PhD." I guess it's prob- I'm still waiting for one, but no one's- Can you get a- My physio wouldn't give [00:26:00] me one.
[00:26:00] I asked him ... can you
[00:26:00] Hamish: get an honour- honour- He loves you, though. Can, can you get an honorary doctorate or anything like that?
[00:26:04] Jesse: Uh, you can, you can get them. Uh, to be honest, I don't know what the process is, but yeah, you
[00:26:09] Hamish: can. Dr. Jesse Clark. Do you think Dr. Jesse Clark would just have this, you know... I'm, I'm just imagining
[00:26:14] Jesse: your emails when you
[00:26:14] Hamish: send it through, or like on your shirt, Dr.
[00:26:17] Jesse: Jesse Clark. Can you, can you give me one from the Sustainable Builders Alliance? Absolutely.
[00:26:21] Hamish: Yeah. Yep, absolutely.
[00:26:21] Matt: But so the- An
[00:26:22] Hamish: honorary doctorate, sure.
[00:26:23] Matt: So you- I want, I really wanna head this codes and standards conversation still, because there must be some very robust discussions
[00:26:29] Jesse: Yeah?
[00:26:30] Matt: Yeah. Like
[00:26:31] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:26:31] All
[00:26:31] Hamish: right. Yeah.
[00:26:32] Matt: Uh, yep, there is, yeah. I wanna know the juicy goss. Well, well,
[00:26:34] Jesse: yeah, yeah. Well, in the standard- standards committee process?
[00:26:37] Matt: Yeah.
[00:26:38] Jesse: Yeah, so standards committee pro- it's, it's a technical game of chess. That's what it is. So
[00:26:41] Matt: you gotta have a real long-term outlook.
[00:26:43] Jesse: Well, you've got to know what everyone's positions are, who they work for, and what they might be saying for whatever, as you talked about, reasons that they may or may not have disclosed.
[00:26:57] Matt: So are you legally required to disclose [00:27:00] things?
[00:27:00] Jesse: You're meant to be... On a standards committee, the standards are there for the people of Australia.
[00:27:04] Matt: Yeah, but you- I bring it up quite often- But you- ... we're here for the people of Australia ... but you also have to pay a shitload of money to access the law with the standards.
[00:27:10] Jesse: You wouldn't access the law. I don't, I don't mean to get into it with
[00:27:12] Hamish: Jesse, though.
[00:27:13] Matt: No, no, no, but these Australian standards are not e- easily accessible. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.
[00:27:16] Jesse: So- You gotta pay
[00:27:16] Hamish: them.
[00:27:16] Matt: You
[00:27:16] Hamish: gotta pay for them, yeah.
[00:27:17] Matt: And a large
[00:27:18] Jesse: amount. Yeah, you gotta pay, you gotta, you gotta bo- um, pay for the standards, yes.
[00:27:21] Um, and you're... Oh, you're, so you're having a go at the whole-
[00:27:24] Matt: Cost of what
[00:27:25] Jesse: it- Yeah, the cost of standards that are called up in the building code, and if you- He- ... bought every standard on the- ... be hundreds of thousands of dollars ... the cost of the building code- Yeah ... you'd be broke. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's then why you end up getting experts to tell you, because they've actually read those and bought those standards.
[00:27:38] Matt: But then, yeah. Yeah, or have they?
[00:27:41] Jesse: Well, maybe, maybe not. So, but anyway, on the standards committee, yeah, there's, there's... You know, in my opinion, yeah, people should be there to make the standards better. Uh, and a lot of people are there- Yeah ... to make the standards better, to make... You know, for the people of Australia.
[00:27:59] [00:28:00] Um, but there's also a lot of stalling tactics, and there's a lot of, um... Yeah, just keep everything the same sort of philosophy, because no change is good change.
[00:28:10] Matt: What are you most proud of, of a standard that's changed? What the what? A- A- What are you most proud of of a certain standard you've changed, or had a major influence on change?
[00:28:18] Jesse: Well, I think the... Going back to 2017 revision of the membrane standard when opened up the categories of, um, to vapor permeability completely. You know, it's only coming through now, and we're talking- Yeah ... almost 10 years later. So-
[00:28:34] Matt: So that's how long it takes to make change ...
[00:28:35] Jesse: that's how long it takes to change, to pull the lever, and then the market react.
[00:28:41] Hamish: So d- so were you quite influential in, um, the change from using, uh, perforated foil-backed sisalation to using a Class 4 membrane?
[00:28:54] Jesse: Uh, yeah, yeah. So the standard that when they open up the categories to vapour permeability, obviously you can get [00:29:00] that, um, achieve that target in terms of vapour permeability through perforating a membrane, perforating a piece of aluminum foil.
[00:29:07] It's just so
[00:29:07] Matt: stupid.
[00:29:08] Jesse: Um, so that then overlays with weatherproofing, uh, and is a piece of perforated foil actually weather tight. Yeah. Which then comes back to a philosophical discussion around what's the hierarchy of design, and what's the most important thing that we're using these membranes for. And, you know, if you go through the building science and, you know, speak to and read and look at damages, it's always weather tightness.
[00:29:34] Number one, stop bulk water getting into the building. So at some point in history, and going back to this is my interpretation of the, the membrane standard, it got put into the insulation, um, committee. So what do insulation guys care about?
[00:29:50] Matt: Insulation.
[00:29:51] Jesse: R-values.
[00:29:52] Matt: Yeah.
[00:29:52] Jesse: How do you get an R-value? S-
[00:29:54] Matt: still air.
[00:29:55] Jesse: Still air and aluminum foil.
[00:29:57] Matt: So that's got- But technically, but technically it doesn't actually... You [00:30:00] can't get still air on a, in a cavity whatsoever.
[00:30:02] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Matt: It's impossible.
[00:30:02] Jesse: So, so you can't get still air in a cavity. The original research going all the way back to 1954, housing research paper number 32 out of the US.
[00:30:11] Matt: Just know that off the top of your head.
[00:30:12] Jesse: Yeah. Well, I've talked about it a lot. But that- Sounds like a riveting read ... and I also tried to reverse engineer all their calcs, which was quite difficult. But, um, that original research paper was a three-inch cavity, and they did it on different slopes with still air.
[00:30:27] So looking at-
[00:30:28] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:30:28] Jesse: different angles and what the R-value was. Uh, to some extent, still air for heat flow out is very important. For heat flow in, um, the ventilation or moving air can actually provide a benefit even with an aluminum foil. Uh, so you know, it's reflective low-emission surfaces aren't all bad, it's just where do you put them that they don't create condensation and trap water vapor in your structure.
[00:30:56] Hamish: Interesting.
[00:30:57] Jesse: So I've got a few, um, great [00:31:00] ideas that I think, um, some of the cladding suppliers should be using, but the question is, maybe it's not even possible, technically possible. I don't know. So- Is
[00:31:09] Hamish: this, was this your one-and-a-half-hour meeting this morning?
[00:31:12] Jesse: No, no, that was all our, our R&D projects for Pro Clima, so that's top secret stuff.
[00:31:17] Hamish: Shh. Oh, so what are you talking about? Have you got that recording? The one- Yeah, I think we got, we set up the
[00:31:22] Matt: camera overnight
[00:31:23] Hamish: when you'd have that meeting. The camera, yeah.
[00:31:24] Matt: Nice.
[00:31:24] Jesse: Yeah. So- Yeah, so some of the, the roof, like combining low-emittance surfaces to reduce radiant heat flow, radiant heat on, in summer in Australia is, can be intense- Yep
[00:31:37] off a hot metal cladding. But the way you've got to design buildings is not just blinkers on, oh, we're designing for summer, or blinkers on, we're designing for winter, because you do create that unintended consequence in the other, um, season. So you've got to think about both seasons and weighing them up together, in which case our approach at Pro Clima is to use [00:32:00] vapor-permeable structures and use ventilation to remove heat rather than relying on low-emittance surfaces.
[00:32:05] Hamish: Yeah, interesting.
[00:32:06] Jesse: So, so- Although if you could plug a low-emittance surface into a ventilated system, you might be onto a really big winner.
[00:32:12] Matt: Is that what the R&D meeting was?
[00:32:14] Jesse: No. But I don't think that should be a- No ... incorporated into a membrane, for example. I like a different product. Because when you put it into a membrane- Totally different product
[00:32:25] when you put it into a membrane, the membrane becomes a vapor barrier, so now where do you put the membrane without causing the membrane to completely disintegrate?
[00:32:31] Matt: Or just put external, or just put external insulation on.
[00:32:33] Jesse: External insulation, yeah. It's- But then, but then there's, you know, very hot claddings in direct sun, you can potentially m- manage radiant heat with low-emittance surfaces
[00:32:47] Hamish: Oh no, I'm, I'm actually just, I'm sitting here thinking about all of it, and like what I love about it is it's, it's not just use Pro Clima products. It's like use Pro Clima products because we've thought about all of this other shit [00:33:00] that's kinda creating issues in the first place. And even though by the sounds of things, you're, not saying...
[00:33:07] Can't choose my words here. It doesn't sound like the Pro Clima product is quote unquote perfect, 'cause it doesn't have that, um, low-emittance surface on it.
[00:33:14] Jesse: So the holy grail would be to have a vapor-permeable, uh, aluminum foil.
[00:33:22] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:33:22] Matt: Is that, you reckon that's something that, like if that, that's, would people be out there working on it, like science labs and stuff, you'd think-
[00:33:26] Jesse: Well, I found it at one point.
[00:33:28] I found a, um, a porous aluminum that can be generated. They use it in capacitors.
[00:33:37] Matt: Just, just at home?
[00:33:37] Jesse: So only tiny little capacitors for electronic equipment.
[00:33:40] Matt: Yeah. And then how do you put them on a huge sheet scale?
[00:33:42] Jesse: But, but then when we went and said, "Well, how much does it cost?" It's like, okay, all right, if I was launching a spaceship into, you know, space, maybe I'd pay that, but-
[00:33:50] Matt: But the, but those se- that's where it all starts, isn't it?
[00:33:52] A lot of these se- like that's where it starts,
[00:33:53] Jesse: someone eventually filters out. Yeah, sure, but, but are you guys gonna pay, you know, $300- No, no, but no, well- ... $300 a meter squared for a membrane?
[00:33:58] Hamish: Well, I mean, there's, there's- No, we already are ... there's [00:34:00] that, there's that too, the, but it also kinda raises a question for me, and I, I might be completely- No
[00:34:03] off the mark here, but, um, what, what's the carbon inputs into producing a product like that?
[00:34:07] Jesse: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a whole nother thing I have no idea- Yeah ... in that context. It was more about a t- technical performance properties. Can you make it? And yeah, sure, you can make anything. Uh, if we, if we can send man to the moon, can we?
[00:34:19] I don't know. Did we? Uh, if we can. Yeah, did we? Conspiracy theories.
[00:34:24] Hamish: It's the conspiracy nuts. You wanna go into conspiracy theories now? I was actually thinking about it the other day, 'cause I've just- Oh ... I've just finished, um... There's a new movie that's just come out called The Hail Mary Project. Oh, I wanna see, yeah.
[00:34:31] So I've read the book.
[00:34:32] Matt: Ah.
[00:34:32] Hamish: And, and it got me thinking.
[00:34:33] Matt: Isn't, isn't the book written off the movie?
[00:34:35] Hamish: No, no, the book's first. Book's first. I think
[00:34:37] Matt: it's smarter.
[00:34:38] Hamish: And I'm just like, fuck, I wonder if we did actually land on the moon.
[00:34:43] Matt: Um- Okay. We're not gonna get a conspiracy out. Okay.
[00:34:45] Hamish: Hang on, let me just take, take my tinfoil hat off for a second.
[00:34:47] So- I'll just pop that under the table here ...
[00:34:48] Matt: I just wanna jump back to the standards, 'cause I wanna understand more how it works. Like, 'cause you guys... Is it like a bit of a court case and you've got a judge who then goes, "This is now the, the rules," or how do you agree on what goes into-
[00:34:58] Jesse: It's a consensus, industry [00:35:00] consensus.
[00:35:00] Matt: So there might be 15- So the standards- ... to vote ...
[00:35:02] Jesse: as... on, on a committee?
[00:35:04] Matt: So you on... So is it... Are you
[00:35:05] Jesse: on- You're talking about standards committee?
[00:35:06] Matt: Yeah.
[00:35:06] Jesse: Yeah, so on a standards committee, there's a, a people, whole bunch of, um, industry players or- Yeah ... yeah, people that have a-
[00:35:15] Matt: Seat at the table ...
[00:35:16] Jesse: or a seat at the table.
[00:35:17] Mainly industry organizations. But yeah, well, it is industry organizations sitting around the table, and you get a vote, but it's a consensus. So it's a consensus. Standards are a consensus document, so industry consensus, so that means it represents what the industry thinks. I can write my
[00:35:35] Hamish: own standard.
[00:35:35] Full con- f- f- full consensus or majority? Uh, majority consensus.
[00:35:39] Jesse: Yeah, so just 51%. Uh, I think it's more like 80 or something.
[00:35:43] Matt: Oh, so it's r- yeah.
[00:35:45] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:35:45] Matt: And if you've, if you've got... So you've got to really... That's why you say you got to play chess, you've got to get multiple p- multiple people in the same camp as you into that-
[00:35:53] Jesse: Yeah
[00:35:53] Matt: conversation.
[00:35:54] Jesse: Yeah, so it's, it- it's about, well, yeah, what, what are you trying to achieve? Why are we doing this? Um, [00:36:00] there's always the cost discussion around, "Yeah, but if we do all this testing, and we do this, and we do that, it's gonna put up the price of products, and then you've gotta pay more." And it's like, all- So-
[00:36:09] we lose margin, and, you know, it's like-
[00:36:11] Matt: That, but that again, if you... The conversation- But that's- ... on losing margin shouldn't be-
[00:36:14] Jesse: But that's not, that's, that's the underlying, probably the underlying story. But yeah, that shouldn't be part of- So- ... what's best for the people of Australia.
[00:36:21] Hamish: I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back to what I was saying before.
[00:36:22] Like, all of this sounds great, and I, and I get it, like there's different stakeholders sitting at the table, and we've got good, you know, um, sounds like we've got quite a heavy majority- Yeah ... amount of people making the decisions, but what's the end goal? You know, it's, there still hasn't answered the question.
[00:36:37] Well, no, it's not, not the question. No, no, it's not- But it's not a question for you to answer. But like, what is this- Yeah ... ultimate, you know, perfect home that we should be living in? 'Cause without- Yeah ... that, I can't understand how people can sit around the table and make decisions.
[00:36:52] Jesse: Yeah. And so what's, what's the perfect home look like?
[00:36:55] But which then feeds down to what do the products I need to build that [00:37:00] perfect home look like?
[00:37:01] Matt: It's, it's principles, not products.
[00:37:03] Jesse: Well, but you still need a product. You can't build a house on principles.
[00:37:06] Matt: And I know, and I understand that. It goes back to my comment- You do.
[00:37:08] Hamish: Isn't, isn't there five principles for passive house?
[00:37:10] Jesse: Yeah, but the principles don't build you a house.
[00:37:12] Matt: No, but what I... But what, yeah, but I know, but what I'm saying here is like I, I can go get... I could get the best system from you guys for the sense- Yeah ... of like, I can go put my M- my Memento wrap on my roof, my access on the wall. But if I just get my nail gun out with my weather boards and start nailing through it, the product's not doing anything, you know, with no cavity button.
[00:37:31] Understand it's a system, but it's why I say principles out-trump systems, uh, out-trump products. I can make your product fail if I want to
[00:37:39] Jesse: Yeah, yeah, sure. But, but you need to develop products that you can use to build a house.
[00:37:45] Matt: 100%. So what's-
[00:37:46] Jesse: I mean, you can't just, um, have a imaginary building envelope and keep yourself dry, right?
[00:37:52] So- But, but this is, again,
[00:37:52] Hamish: you know, uh, you- you're probably starting to answer the question, what does the perfect house look like? I was just gonna ask you. And it, and it includes good building wrap, ventilated [00:38:00] cavity, you know, properly installed cladding, followers following a system, well-insulated, airtight, ventilation- Yeah,
[00:38:07] Matt: like how would you build your house?
[00:38:08] Jesse: Take it, take it right back to the fundamentals, which is why do we live in houses?
[00:38:14] Hamish: Or what is a house
[00:38:15] Matt: for? So just, just to- Safety ... to separate us from the inside to outside.
[00:38:18] Jesse: Yeah, but it's shelter, right? Yeah, yeah. Shelter. No, shelter. Yeah. It's basic shelter. Yeah. So number one, well, stop the rain falling on our head.
[00:38:26] Uh, how many houses in Australia leak water? It's the
[00:38:30] Matt: biggest
[00:38:31] Jesse: insurance claim. New and old. Yeah, new and, new and old because, you know, we get big storms coming through Sydney, and every single house where I live has leaks. Um-
[00:38:39] Matt: But that's normal. I know you get a few leaks
[00:38:40] Jesse: in house. Yeah, but these... We're talking- That, that's the attitude
[00:38:42] in a, we're talking inner city Sydney where the house is, you know, 100-plus-years-old. Yeah. But even a new build, it's normal. It's like- In and in London ... "Oh, it's leaking."
[00:38:50] Matt: Yeah. "Oh, don't worry, you'll get a few. It's okay." Yeah, you get a few. "
[00:38:52] Jesse: Nothing's gonna happen." "Oh, that's normal." Yeah. It's, well, okay, so where are we?
[00:38:55] Are we- I am horrified whenever I get that phone call
[00:38:58] Matt: But we don't. I don't anymore, 'cause... [00:39:00] And this is w- and this is why, this is a, a frustration of mine, and it's my own opinion here, is I see people going and wrapping their walls in Pro Clima. It's quite good. Start with Mento first. That is... Like, just start there.
[00:39:13] Yeah. That is, that is, to me, more important product than getting your roof right than getting your walls to start with.
[00:39:19] Jesse: Yeah. So stop the... Yeah, it, it, it's, it's your security blanket.
[00:39:23] Matt: Yeah.
[00:39:24] Jesse: Or-
[00:39:24] Matt: Start, start there ...
[00:39:24] Jesse: it, it's, it's... Or what I say, it's an insurance policy, right? Yeah. Um, but it's... When you buy an insurance policy, you don't buy the, you know, $1 insurance policy.
[00:39:36] You spend a little bit more. So when you go and you're going on a trip overseas, you get the, the good quality stuff, so if you knock out all your teeth, you know that they're gonna actually help you.
[00:39:44] Matt: Unlike private health insurance in Australia now.
[00:39:47] Jesse: So, so you buy, so you buy the good insurance policy. So, so basically, um, yeah, Pro Clima is an insurance policy, and I'm an insurance salesman.
[00:39:55] Uh, and we, we sell you high-quality insurance.
[00:39:59] Hamish: Yep. Do you [00:40:00] know, there, there, there's, there's the topic of- Assurance, I should say. There, there's the... I like that. Yeah. Yeah, you're- Yes ... you know, you are an, a- an assurance salesman. An
[00:40:06] Jesse: assurance
[00:40:06] Matt: salesman. Yeah. But, but, but it's the... And like I-
[00:40:12] I look at these people, and there's this massive trend through social media like we're using ProClimber on the walls. To me, it's a low-hanging fruit. Yeah. Like, that's the, the cost change isn't in the actual membrane. It, it's the extra cost in the tape, and it shouldn't... If we compare from the average standard industry wrap, there shouldn't be a cent difference to install your product the way it is meant to be installed because the problem is we take the baseline of installing a product incorrectly is what is normal.
[00:40:39] Jesse: Yeah. The question is does the baseline work?
[00:40:43] Matt: No, no, but, but the issue is like we, we see performance as, we see a house failing as like the industry baseline. That, that's the problem is-
[00:40:52] Jesse: Yeah, so, so what you're telling me is the baseline doesn't work.
[00:40:55] Matt: No, it, it, w- I think, and maybe again we're in the bubble, I think, well, surely [00:41:00] even politicians understand it's not working 'cause if it was working, we wouldn't have a standards and codes committee
[00:41:06] Jesse: Yeah, and then there's an argument, why do we keep increasing the code?
[00:41:09] It's good enough. Um, just build what we got.
[00:41:12] Matt: But it, i- i- yeah, but the thing is, yeah, but the thing is we wouldn't have a minister in building if it was working.
[00:41:18] Jesse: If it
[00:41:18] Hamish: was all- Well, there, there, there, there's a, there's an unsaid acknowledgement that it's not good enough if there's a committee and that you're con- constantly iterating.
[00:41:24] Jesse: But, but, but being part of a developed country or moving to highly developed or, you know, extremely highly developed country and you, and you see the difference, those people that have traveled between countries that are highly developed and, you know- And
[00:41:38] Hamish: you've
[00:41:38] Jesse: lived in Germany for a while ... undeveloped, and I've been there a lot.
[00:41:39] I
[00:41:42] wouldn't say lived, but- Good to hear, good to hear a courier in Germany. Yeah. So that's Germany, but, but yeah, the, the Nordic countries as well, and, and you see a difference in, um, those... Well, the way they do everything,
[00:41:54] Matt: really. Well, we're seeing that right now with geopolitics and how- Yeah ... set up Norway and all these other countries have kind of got it sorted, and everyone's like- Yeah[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] "But what's the catch?" And it's like, "No, no, they're just, it
[00:42:03] Jesse: works." Yeah, because they've, they've worked it out, yeah. But they have a plan. So years and years of debate, but the question is, do you wanna get better or not? And, and both you guys wanna get better, right? So you're working on the 1% better every day theory.
[00:42:13] Matt: I, I, I don't know-
[00:42:14] Jesse: And, and do we not treat- Well, I'm, uh- ... these code and standard the same way?
[00:42:18] Matt: Well, I actually don't know if I'm working to get... Well- This is a really good conversation because I've never thought, "Am I working to build better?" I, I think that we do an amazing job of what we do, and do I need to worry about building better myself?
[00:42:30] Probably not. I think, again, if simple shit works and I've got the solutions, what I'm more interested in is getting others to build better. Like, I think we build better now.
[00:42:38] Hamish: Yeah, I d- I, I mean, I disagree with that. I mean, I, I think that every home that we build, we're learning stuff on.
[00:42:42] Matt: Yeah, and I wanna say- You know, like, agreed
[00:42:43] the worst home, one of the worst homes is our rec- most recent home we just finished, 'cause the next home should be better. Yeah,
[00:42:47] Hamish: correct. That's what I mean, constant development.
[00:42:50] Matt: Yeah. Constantly having
[00:42:50] Hamish: conversations with my site team saying, "Hey, that works. Let's do, let's do this next time," 'cause we've, 'cause of X, Y, and Z, that, you know, we, we- Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:42:59] think there's a better solution. That's [00:43:00] true.
[00:43:00] Jesse: Yep. But, but once... That, that's a bit like the, you're talking about just the walls and hang on, where's the... You haven't addressed the roof. But, but you start somewhere, right? I was
[00:43:08] Hamish: gonna
[00:43:08] Jesse: bring that up. You started somewhere. No, no, no, no. I was gonna bring that up before.
[00:43:10] You started somewhere. So that build, ne- next build's better, and the next build's better. Yeah. And they're going, "Well, hang on, I've got the wall wrap on, but that window junction, how do we deal with that? Because we can do better."
[00:43:19] Hamish: I've, I've used this example before on the podcast, so but it was a while ago, so I can...
[00:43:23] I'll bring it up again. So couple, two or three years ago, we did an extension to our old house, and before that, I had done a smaller extension where I had wrapped this little pop-out where a bathroom was with, um, aluminum foil, and then literally screwed metal cladding straight into the studs. We've all done it.
[00:43:41] Yeah. And as I was, uh, undoing this section where the connection was between the house, I literally peeled a bit off, and I think I called one of my team and go, "Hey, look at this. This is how we used to do it- And I think that's okay 'cause it's this really great juxtaposition between I've got this SIP structure sort of sitting up here now that we're [00:44:00] gonna wrap really well and put really good windows in it, and this is how we used to do it.
[00:44:03] And this is like this literally this, my old home is the evolution of my building journey. Hmm. Of, you know, how far we've come from here to here. And I think it's a good thing.
[00:44:13] Matt: And we might look as if we're level 100 on what we do, but we were once level one. We were, we originally once had to go, "Let's make change
[00:44:24] Hamish: How long has it taken you to, uh, w- like you're ta- talking about what time period there?
[00:44:28] Uh, so we bought that house in 2013, and then I reckon in 2015 we did a little extension. And then during that time, I think we did our f- we started using building wraps in 2018 when I first did the Passive House course. Like got- Yeah ... I ended up buying some Pro Clima product from Burkhard, you know, it was, uh, branded with Panellight or Carbonlight or whatever it was.
[00:44:52] And then f- you know, I guess from there we just iterated and iterated and iterated, and then next minute we're, like it is, that's just all we do. You're a ninja.
[00:44:59] Jesse: [00:45:00] So the, the whole thing, the whole transition is a, is a generational transition.
[00:45:05] Hamish: Yep.
[00:45:05] Jesse: So you've been building for 20 years?
[00:45:08] Hamish: Yeah, been in the industry about 20, 21 years.
[00:45:10] Yeah. 20
[00:45:10] Jesse: years.
[00:45:11] Matt: Yeah. I was, I just went over it was 20... Yeah, 20. So I'm, yeah,
[00:45:16] Jesse: 16 years. 16 years. Yeah. So 16 years, I guess Pro Clima, you know, sort of coming into the market and, you know- Yeah ... you, you've found Pro Clima in the early, early-ish days. So, um- Not as early as Justin O'Connor, but...
[00:45:27] Hamish: No, no, no. No, no, no.
[00:45:29] Jesse: Uh, but the, um, the thing is, yeah, people have to find us, and then they have to understand, and then they have to implement and that, you know, going through that sequence of, "Oh, I use Pro Clima tape.
[00:45:39] Oh, that's amazing. Oh, okay. Oh, what's their wraps like? Oh wow, this is amazing."
[00:45:43] Hamish: Yeah. "
[00:45:43] Jesse: Oh, the wall wrap. Oh, okay. Hang on. What about the roof wraps? Oh, how do I do... What's that weird roof system- Yeah ... you're doing? Oh yeah, I'll do that too." And then eventually you get to that point, but that's, you know, 10-year- Yep
[00:45:52] journey.
[00:45:53] Hamish: And, and
[00:45:53] Jesse: even- For each builder ...
[00:45:54] Hamish: and, and even, and even looking around now, like we've got all these sort of props and stands, displays around us now, and I'm kind of [00:46:00] looking at this picture behind Matt, right? That wasn't available for me to look at when I first started. Well, here, well, I couldn't find it readily available.
[00:46:06] You had
[00:46:07] Jesse: the, you had the, you had the German version.
[00:46:08] Hamish: Well, we had the Ger- Yeah, we had the German version, but even, you know, a really great example of what's behind us now. Yeah. This is you iterating and getting better and finding solutions- Yeah, absolutely. Yeah ... to problems that exist in the market. So should
[00:46:18] Matt: we go back to change
[00:46:19] Jesse: now quick- You don't wanna know the list of problems I got.
[00:46:22] Hamish: Well, uh- But this is great to hear though because it kind of, again, and kind of circles back to this, you know, question I kept asking before, what is the perfect home or what... And, and when I say home, it could be apartment, it could be townhouse, could be, you know, one-bedroom granny flat that's in, in your home.
[00:46:36] What does that look like? So everyone can go in there every single night, go to sleep and feel safe.
[00:46:41] Jesse: And it's not a one solution fits all either. I agree. I agree with that. Yeah. Because are you building in, in a city Melbourne? Are you building out in the sticks? Have you got overlays of all sorts of other issues?
[00:46:54] Um, have you got, uh, bushfire- Yep ... issues? Or- All of that ... you don't have bushfire
[00:46:59] Matt: issues. But we [00:47:00] go back to time. Yeah. We go back to time and we see how much can change when you said in 16 years, so quickly done a quick Google here. So in 20- 2016 At 2010, which is we take back that time, that is when the iPhone 4 is out.
[00:47:14] We're at iPhone 18 now, so we've seen how much change has happened in the little thing we have in our pockets from that time, and we can see how much life can change. I think that's probably a good... And that, and we look at Apple, they're gonna continue to make your phone better. So like, it kind of goes back into the building industry, like I assume you guys aren't gonna be any different.
[00:47:35] Jesse: Well, we'll keep bringing, hopefully bringing stuff out. That's, that's, that's what I would like to do, bring new stuff out regular basis.
[00:47:42] Matt: Um- What would you want to see next? I've been getting- R&D ... R&D. Um You really,
[00:47:48] Hamish: you really want to
[00:47:49] Jesse: go
[00:47:49] Matt: the R&D
[00:47:50] Jesse: path.
[00:47:50] Hamish: Well, we're gonna, we're gonna- See, he's so good at keeping tight lips
[00:47:52] we, we're gonna, we're gonna wrap it up. So, um, at the end of every podcast, we have this, uh, little segment called the MEGT Mindful Moment, and it's where we, we [00:48:00] kinda think back of some of the topics that we've, um, that we've talked about, and try and then kinda direct it and put a sh- light on apprentices and trainees and all that kind of stuff are coming through the, uh, industry.
[00:48:11] And there's a couple of kinda running themes that I've picked up on as we've been having this conversation, and it's about this sort of iterative impor- improvement. And I think everyone really needs to think about that. You- you've- you've come from, uh, arguably a, a university degree that maybe you're not using anymore, and now you're sitting here now sitting on the board of, you know, the, the standards boards.
[00:48:32] Matt is-
[00:48:32] Matt: Talking to, yeah- Yeah ... a original apprentice carpenter.
[00:48:35] Hamish: You know, well, I just used, uh, an example before of, like, a timeline of when I was, um, renovating my home. Like, we don't get it perfect the first time, but I think what I wanna, uh, uh, what I wanna kinda stress right now and get apprentices to think about is it is okay to try, fail, learn.
[00:48:52] Try, fail, learn. Try, fail, learn. 'Cause you're only gonna get better and better and better. And just use that failure as an opportunity to, to improve.
[00:48:59] Matt: [00:49:00] Ag- 100% agree. Now, Jesse, thank you for everything you've probably done for us, 'cause I don't think you understand the amount that you've taught us indirectly.
[00:49:10] Your moisture management guide, if you're a young kid, yeah, it can be a bit of a tough read to start with
[00:49:15] Hamish: Upload it into chat and- On credit podcasts ... upload it, upload it into chat and, and then, and then you know- Look...
[00:49:20] Matt: No, but I've just, I've written here- Look at
[00:49:21] Hamish: the pictures in the back ...
[00:49:22] Matt: but I've actually said- Look at the pictures
[00:49:24] like, you can, you can now upload this and turn it into an audiobook.
[00:49:27] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:49:27] Matt: Sit and listen to it in the car. Honestly, it-
[00:49:29] Hamish: Actually, I remember Sean from, um, Tassie Builders Blog, uh, gave me this PDF reader at the time, and this is before, you know, LLMs came out- Yeah ... and I'm just like, "Great. Download into chat.
[00:49:41] Ask it questions."
[00:49:43] Matt: Yeah, but, like, it's, it's a great, like, uh, for the... Not just on behalf of us, but the future of building. I don't really... I no- I wonder one day if you sit back and you go like, "Geez, I actually made a huge amount of change," and you're gonna actually go, "Shit, like, I, it started with me." 'Cause it did.
[00:49:59] Jesse: [00:50:00] Mm.
[00:50:01] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:50:02] Matt: You know what?
[00:50:02] Jesse: You- There was a lot of, there was a lot of people involved,
[00:50:04] Hamish: um- Yeah. You've, you've, you've had a really- Yeah, of course ... you've had a really positive influence on, I guess, the future of building in Australia, so you know what? You don't have to say thank you, you don't have to do anything, but I'm gonna say thank you.
[00:50:13] Yeah. Um, all right. Hey, uh, thanks for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Thanks, thanks for, thanks for joining us