What is the end game of building? (Copy)

Written By Matthew Carland

Some builders talk sustainability like it’s a vibe.

Jackson from Enduro Builders talks sustainability like it’s a system. Measured. Repeatable. Calm. The kind of builder who is not trying to win points on Instagram. He is trying to build homes that actually perform, year after year, in the real world.

We recorded this one in Adelaide, sitting inside a Passive House, which felt fitting. Because once you spend time in a properly built high-performance home, it is hard to unsee what “normal” housing has been asking people to tolerate.

Passive House, Without the Mystique
Jackson has been building energy efficient homes in South Australia for more than a decade, including certified Passive Houses. He is not precious about it. No magic. No secret sauce. Just good design, good detailing, and a refusal to cut corners where it counts.

He explained comfort in a way that makes sense even if you have never read a standard in your life. The house holds temperature. It stays stable. It does not swing from freezing to stuffy. At one point we talked about having a room packed with people and still feeling comfortable.

One of the best parts of this chat was how practical Jackson is about targets. Not every project needs to be certified. Not every client wants the same thing. There are tiers. High efficiency builds. Passive House principles without certification. Full certified Passive House when it makes sense.

The point is not the badge. The point is performance.

And that means choosing the right materials and systems to match the brief, the budget, and the climate. You can feel Jackson’s experience here. He is not selling a dream. He is solving a problem.

Design Negotiations Are Part of the Job
Every builder knows this one. The plans look great until you start asking how the house will actually work.

Jackson talked openly about the constant negotiation between design, comfort, cost, and what the client thinks they want. Heating choices came up. Hydronic. Wood fire. What works, what does not, and what people assume will be “cosy” versus what actually keeps a home comfortable.

He also shared that his own home build has been a negotiation too, which we loved. Because even the most dialled-in builders still have to make trade-offs.

CLT, Process, and Building Like You Mean It
We got into Cross Laminated Timber (CLT) and why Jackson is using it in his own place. It is a solid option when you care about durability, buildability, and sustainability in a practical sense.

But the bigger theme was this. Technology only helps if the process is tight.

Jackson is big on systems. The boring stuff that keeps a business running properly. Clear processes. Repeatable steps. A framework that makes quality easier to deliver, not harder. He described it like the bloodline of the company. Without systems, growth just becomes chaos.

If you are a builder, designer, or homeowner who cares about comfort, efficiency, and homes that actually last, go listen to the full episode. It will make you think differently about what “good building” should look like in Australia.

LINKS:

Enduro Builders: https://www.endurobuilders.com.au/

Climasure: https://www.climasure.com.au/

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/


Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:  www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

  • [00:00:00] Matt: We're in Adelaide. Thanks. We're, we're in, well we're in, we're South Australia. We're not in Ad- Adelaide technically, are we? 

    [00:00:05] Hamish: Mount Barker. 

    [00:00:06] Jackson: Mount Barker. 

    [00:00:07] Hamish: Mount Barker. 

    [00:00:08] Matt: Yes, and we are, um, recording from Enduro Builders Passive House... 

    [00:00:15] Hamish: Certified 

    [00:00:16] Matt: Passive House ... Certified Passive House. 

    [00:00:17] Jackson: Display home. 

    [00:00:18] Matt: Display home. 

    [00:00:19] Hamish: Um, and obviously this is our, the mobile Pro Clima- Studio

    [00:00:23] studio. 

    [00:00:24] Matt: Yeah, so we're up here for a night. We've got an event tonight with ClimaSure and Enduro Builders. It's gonna be fun, hey? 

    [00:00:31] Hamish: It's gonna be really good. Um, and sold out tonight too. Yeah. So, there's gonna... this room's gonna be jam-packed full of 20 or 30 people. I hope the HRV works. 

    [00:00:39] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:00:39] Hamish: Um- I 

    [00:00:39] Matt: think Jackson forgot the boost switches.

    [00:00:41] Jackson: Yeah. Don't need them. Um- 

    [00:00:45] Hamish: Uh, today we're joined by Jackson. Uh, Jackson, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself. Uh, obviously we've known each other for a long time. 

    [00:00:52] Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:00:52] Hamish: In fact, we did the Passive House 

    [00:00:54] Jackson: trade- We- That's when we met ... that's when you first met ... as a tradies 

    [00:00:55] Hamish: course. Oh, you did 

    [00:00:56] Matt: your Passive House course together.

    [00:00:57] Hamish: We did, yeah. Yeah, 

    [00:00:58] Jackson: I always say to people that Hamish [00:01:00] and I bonded over a, a, a dislike of idiots. 

    [00:01:04] Hamish: Jackson, thanks for joining us. Yeah. Do you wanna let everyone know who you are and what you do and... 

    [00:01:08] Jackson: I, uh, I'm the owner of Enduro Builders and ClimaSure. So Enduro Builders, we specialize in building, um, energy efficient homes and building to the certified Passive House standard.

    [00:01:22] We, um, we've been going now for 10 years, and, uh, we do, we do about 25 projects a year. And- Oh ... we're still growing. So we've got a, I've got a fantastic team of guys now. We've got 17 of us. Um- 

    [00:01:41] Matt: Are they new homes, all of them, or- 

    [00:01:43] Jackson: No ... anything? There's a mixture of addition renos and new homes. We'd love to make our mix more new home, but there's so many houses that we come across that are, they're worth saving and they're worth improving.

    [00:01:57] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:01:57] Jackson: Um- 

    [00:01:58] Matt: Is it pretty much as long as the project's [00:02:00] profitable, ticks the criteria of high performing, you'll take it on? 

    [00:02:03] Jackson: Yeah, if people want to improve the quality of the thermal envelope of the house and their comfort, um, and, and it's a project where we know we can add value, then we're happy to do it.

    [00:02:16] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:02:16] Jackson: Uh, I'm also the owner of ClimaSure. So I set ClimaSure up, um, because I, as I got into Passive House, I got into Pro Clima. 

    [00:02:26] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:02:27] Jackson: And, uh, we were, um, the biggest client in the state, and also the only client. And we were, um- Just, yeah, I got introduced to Thomas- Oh, yeah ... then, and yeah, started, started the business as a separate business.

    [00:02:45] And so we provide, um... We obviously sell Pro Clima membranes. We sell a bunch of ancillary stuff that goes with it, and, um, and provide consulting to builders and architects on what we do, and that's, that [00:03:00] business is mainly run by Jess, who everyone's pretty familiar with. 

    [00:03:02] Matt: And so is this, the house we're seeing now, is this your first Passive House, or- 

    [00:03:06] Jackson: This was our...

    [00:03:07] Yeah, this was the first certified Passive House that we built. 

    [00:03:10] Matt: Wow. 

    [00:03:11] Jackson: We had a couple of houses beforehand that were not certified, but we did everything that you would do. Um, so yeah, it was... When did we do this? 2022, we did this house. 

    [00:03:24] Matt: And how many certified projects now? 

    [00:03:26] Jackson: Uh, good question. We do about three or four a year, so there's...

    [00:03:30] We'd be nudging 10 now. 

    [00:03:32] Matt: Yeah. Awesome. 

    [00:03:32] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:03:33] Hamish: And I actually love when you introduced Enduro Builders before, you actually said, "We build energy-efficient homes," before Passive House. 

    [00:03:43] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:03:43] Hamish: Which, and I don't wanna ruffle any feat- feathers in the Passive House space- I will. 

    [00:03:48] Jackson: I think we're past that, 

    [00:03:50] Hamish: aren't we?

    [00:03:50] We're, we're very, we're very much past that, but I actually really like that because I, in my opinion, makes your product or what you do as a business much more open to a [00:04:00] broader part of the community. Yep. And I know, you know, having chats with you over the years, you're quite an ambitious person. And I, and, and I think if you set out to build 100 certified passive homes a year, you'd never hit it 

    [00:04:13] Jackson: Not- There's a pause there

    [00:04:14] not in the next, not in the next 12 months So there's- But maybe in the next 10 years So goal- 

    [00:04:18] Hamish: Getting certified buildings? 

    [00:04:19] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:04:20] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:04:20] Jackson: But in the next 10 years. That, I think that's, that, that goal, which I've shared a lot, is still a goal, but I'm realistic about it's, it's not gonna happen quickly, and it's certainly not gonna happen while the cost base is still just a bit too high for it to be something that everyone would look at.

    [00:04:42] Hamish: So just, just to- It's a good- ... recap it here ... segue ... one of, one of your goals is to build 100 certified passive homes in a year. 

    [00:04:49] Jackson: Yep. Okay. And I reckon it'll take me 10 years to get to that. So 

    [00:04:53] Hamish: it's an extra- I, I tell you what- ... 10, an 

    [00:04:54] Matt: extra 10 per year. 

    [00:04:56] Jackson: Yes. 

    [00:04:56] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, but we're talking certified buildings. So he, he does 25 homes a year at the [00:05:00] moment, not certified buildings, three or four.

    [00:05:02] To actually get it... How many passive homes do you build a year, certified buildings? 

    [00:05:07] Matt: Uh, two. 

    [00:05:08] Hamish: Yeah. I, I reckon one or two for me, not turning over the same volume as- Yeah ... Jackson, but if everyone came to me... Well, I don't think we would have a business, a viable business, if we were just saying, "We only build certified Passive Home builders...

    [00:05:22] uh, Passive 

    [00:05:23] Matt: Homes." Yeah, 

    [00:05:24] Jackson: I agree. I reckon, I, I don't- 

    [00:05:24] Matt: But that's why I 

    [00:05:24] Jackson: say 10 years. That's, yeah, 

    [00:05:26] Hamish: but I, I reckon- But is that 

    [00:05:27] Matt: an education thing? I reckon you would. I... it might not be at the scale, but I think you... I think there's such an appetite. Like, I look at all my projects that I've even got in pre-construction- 

    [00:05:36] Hamish: Yeah, I, I 

    [00:05:37] Matt: agree

    [00:05:37] all of, all of them are going for certification. 

    [00:05:39] Hamish: Yeah, I agree- Mm-hmm ... but we're talking about 100. 

    [00:05:41] Matt: Yeah, but as sort of... it's like, it's a marketing thing when- 

    [00:05:45] Hamish: Anyway, I hope you do it. I'm not saying you- No, 

    [00:05:46] Matt: but like it's a- 

    [00:05:47] Hamish: I think if anyone's gonna do it, I reckon 

    [00:05:49] Matt: it's Toby. But it's a good, but it's a good segment.

    [00:05:50] It's a good actual conversation because we don't plan anything what we're gonna talk about, but e- you talk about the cost of building here. Yep. It's everywhere right now with the war in Iran. But we- [00:06:00] Is it actually that more expensive? And like, w- 'cause there's no one's done any study or any data around it, it's just, yeah, it is 

    [00:06:08] Jackson: Um, I don't know where to start answering that question.

    [00:06:11] I can answer all the bits of it- Yeah ... because we looked at this house and, um, we obviously had very detailed costing information, and we were able to, uh, identify that it was about 50 grand, um- 

    [00:06:27] Matt: Over how much? Like, uh, what was the build cost? 

    [00:06:29] Jackson: At the time that we built it- Yeah ... it was about 650 grand. 

    [00:06:33] Matt: So what's that, an extra- Cost to build

    [00:06:34] is that, is that 5% more? Is that maths off the top of my head? 

    [00:06:38] Jackson: Uh, yeah, give or take. Yeah. And obviously as the house gets bigger, so there's a few things, like as the house gets bigger, the cost to convert it from just a high-efficiency house where we still get under, um, under three air changes- 

    [00:06:52] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:06:54] Jackson: to a certified passive house, you're pretty much talking about adding an internal membrane on the walls, 'cause [00:07:00] our high-efficiency spec, we go across the ceiling with Intello.

    [00:07:03] And, um, and a couple of things to do with, you know, insulating under slabs goes from optional to mandatory. Um, and, and if a handful of bits and bobs with glazing and the like, um, plus the, plus the consultants and certifying fees. But on a two-story building, that jump is a lot smaller- Yeah ... in price because you can do just the basics.

    [00:07:27] Like we're sitting in a room here, that ceiling is fixed below the rafters, so there's no space for, um- Intello ... your HRV ducts. There's Intello there. 

    [00:07:39] Matt: But you just... Yeah, okay. 

    [00:07:40] Jackson: But the HRV ducting is all run through the floors. I, I have 

    [00:07:42] Matt: noticed that, yeah. 

    [00:07:43] Jackson: Yeah. So yeah, you spend a bit of money, a bit more money on your floor structure 'cause you're doing trusses, but you're not, um, you're not blowing out the cost in a big way.

    [00:07:54] Hamish: Just wanna... You said something before that in your high-efficiency homes, and after this question, I just want you [00:08:00] to maybe talk about the different levels of homes that you build at Enduro Builders. 

    [00:08:03] Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:08:04] Hamish: But first question is, is the reason you're doing it in the ceiling just because that's where you're seeing most of your vapor movement?

    [00:08:11] That's where you see most of the risk? 

    [00:08:13] Jackson: Uh- 

    [00:08:14] Hamish: Or is it, is, is it a, is it a mold and condensation- Jess, Jess ... risk mitigation, or is it a- Is this a Jess question? Or just airtightness? 

    [00:08:23] Jackson: Uh, so it's primarily to do with how we get airtightness to the level that we do. So there's, um- And there's also a practical part.

    [00:08:35] So, 'cause you wouldn't spend money on Intello unless it made practical sense in a house where you don't have to have it. 

    [00:08:41] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:08:41] Jackson: So with high efficiency homes, we focus on the membrane on the outside doing the, doing the airtightness work. 

    [00:08:47] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:08:48] Jackson: Then the, um, the reason for having Intello across the ceiling is that we use it to separate the insulation above from the [00:09:00] conditioned space below, and then we, we batten it all so it's all supported, and then we drop the ceiling off that.

    [00:09:07] So all of our high efficiency houses with 2.7 meter high ceilings will have three meter high walls, because then you drop the ceiling and all of your duct work goes into that drop. Yeah. Um, and it is just a good way of separating the two, and we looked at doing it with plasterboard. The pro- and we did build a house with plasterboard, um, 

    [00:09:31] Matt: and- Airtight, plasterboard airtightness, that is.

    [00:09:32] You've got plasterboard here. Yeah. 

    [00:09:34] Jackson: Yeah. So we're not, we're not using the plasterboard for airtightness. We're basically using the plasterboard or in all the homes we build now, Intello, to hold the insulation up. 

    [00:09:45] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:09:46] Jackson: Um, and, and make sure that there's no free air movement between air rising up through the ceiling- 

    [00:09:53] Matt: Yeah

    [00:09:53] Jackson: and, um, and the insulation. And it's, there's also then, at the [00:10:00] very end of all of that, and, and this is where lots of people are gonna go, "Ooh, we can't do that," but actually you can, you just have to calculate it, um, is that the Intello does reduce the amount of moisture going into the roof space- Yeah

    [00:10:14] which is completely sealed, because we're relying on the membrane to go around the outside, and there's a, um- Essentially, that moisture that goes up into the ceiling space, you gotta make sure that the Mento has got enough, um, vapor transportability- 

    [00:10:33] Hamish: Yep ... 

    [00:10:34] Jackson: to take that moisture out. So if you can start off by reducing the amount getting in.

    [00:10:39] Hamish: So just, so just for clarity, you're saying that you're comfortable putting your insulation essentially in a cold roof scenario? 

    [00:10:47] Jackson: Mm. 

    [00:10:48] Hamish: Rather than pushing your insulation to the top of the... Yeah. Okay. Which allows 

    [00:10:51] Jackson: us to move the- I'm, I'm, I'm the same too ... roof trusses, which then- Yeah ... which then brings the cost down.

    [00:10:56] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:10:56] Jackson: And, but it, it, it does also mean that it becomes a [00:11:00] performance solution. Yeah. It doesn't- 

    [00:11:01] Matt: Have you had that signed off as a performance solution yet? 

    [00:11:04] Jackson: No. So what I've done, is I've done the calcs. 

    [00:11:06] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:11:07] Jackson: And, I'm waiting for the day that a certifier says- 

    [00:11:11] Matt: You can't do that ... "Why are 

    [00:11:12] Jackson: you doing that?" And they were like, "Here's the performance solution, and we're validating it by, via calculation."

    [00:11:18] Matt: But there's no way to calculate a 3D structure for that, isn't there? Isn't that the whole issue with Woofy, that you can't actually simulate? 

    [00:11:24] Jackson: Yeah. So it's, um, the way I've done it is in a spreadsheet. 

    [00:11:29] Matt: Yeah. Okay. 

    [00:11:29] Jackson: Because you work out the volume. Yeah. Then you work out at the different temperatures how much moisture's in there.

    [00:11:34] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:11:35] Jackson: And, um, and then you calculate how, how much, um, moisture makes it out through the membrane. And then as long as the, the amount that gets out is greater than the amount going 

    [00:11:48] Matt: in. But can you sign off on a performance solution as a builder? Wouldn't you not have to give that to a building surveyor or to a engineer or someone?

    [00:11:55] Jackson: No. So we can do, we can do all the calculations [00:12:00] and, um, as long as a certifier is comfortable that- 

    [00:12:04] Matt: That's correct. Yeah. 

    [00:12:05] Jackson: Yeah. And, and you can always go to a third party. 

    [00:12:10] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:12:11] Jackson: And we could, we could go to someone like Jesse Clark. Yeah. And I could give him the spreadsheet if the certifier was really- 

    [00:12:18] Matt: Not happy.

    [00:12:18] Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, okay. If he was not happy about it, you just go to a third party and say, "Here's all my calcs." 

    [00:12:23] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:12:23] Jackson: Um. 

    [00:12:24] Matt: Interesting. "

    [00:12:25] Jackson: Have I made an error?" '

    [00:12:26] Matt: Cause I build the same as you. I hate that rule where you gotta wrap it, uh, like leave the roof- You 

    [00:12:30] Jackson: gotta ventilate it. Yeah. 

    [00:12:31] Matt: Yeah. I, I, I just think it to me is a, in my limited knowledge, it's a easy cop-out way to not solve the problem, but do something about it.

    [00:12:41] Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. And the tricky bit is, what I'm talking about, it moves you into building stuff that is performance solutions. Which are, um- Y- you have to really know what you're doing- 

    [00:12:56] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:12:57] Jackson: and be able to, like, [00:13:00] provide calculation or provide some evidence that you've stepped it through- Mm ... kind of in an engineering manner to prove that you didn't just stand there on site one day and go, "Oh, we'll just give that a go.

    [00:13:11] She'll be all right. We'll call it a performance solution." That's not how that works. 

    [00:13:16] Matt: Yeah, I suppose the calculations is the hard... So a lot of the projects we're having come out, we're just saying we want rafters or parallel trusses- 

    [00:13:22] Jackson: Mm. Yep ... 

    [00:13:23] Matt: um, just to, to prevent that, that issue, and we'll just fill the whole- Yep

    [00:13:27] bay with insulation. Yeah, I, I, I wanna go back- 

    [00:13:29] Hamish: We're, we're doing, we're doing warm roofs. Before you ask your question, I just wanna... So you, you talked before about, um, one of the particular products that you deliver in a, a high efficiency home. 

    [00:13:39] Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:13:40] Hamish: What are some of the other, like, homes that you build?

    [00:13:42] Like the... 'Cause there's a tier, like there's a hierarchy of- 

    [00:13:46] Jackson: Yep ... 

    [00:13:46] Hamish: different energy 

    [00:13:47] Jackson: efficiency there. Yeah, I can talk about it. Yeah. One thing I'll say before that, with the building code, there is also a thing in the building code that does allow for signing off of performance solutions by a suitably qualified [00:14:00] person- Yep

    [00:14:00] which includes a builder, 'cause I signed off an earthship waterproofing system in Victoria, 'cause the building surveyor was like, "This will never work," blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And like I've seen it work all over the world and, and the surveyor, um, that was engaged by the client said, "Oh, there's this thing in the code."

    [00:14:19] I can't remember the specifics of it- I know it, yeah ... but it's quite clear, and it, it does allow for... It's kind of like a catchall, but obviously you would never sign one of them unless you were 100% confident, 'cause if it ever fails- 

    [00:14:32] Matt: You're liable. 

    [00:14:33] Jackson: Yes. I am. 

    [00:14:34] Matt: Do- are you 100% certain that that roof system works?

    [00:14:39] I am too, but it ultimately is like, there's still some people on the fence about it that are pretty smart. 

    [00:14:45] Jackson: Yeah, but, um, there's a difference between- Uh, people that are willing to take calculated risks and people that are not willing to take any risk at all. And unfortunately, what we [00:15:00] find a lot in this world is that people that are not willing to take a risk at all often get their opinions heard and followed through on.

    [00:15:09] Um, and that's why there's always room for entrepreneurs. Yeah. But there's also always room and opportunity for, in any industry, for anyone to do something- I love that ... if they're willing to just take a bit of calculated risk. 

    [00:15:24] Matt: I love that answer. Yeah. I agree with that. I think because, like, ultimately you have Intello and you've got a mechanical ventilation.

    [00:15:30] Jackson: Well, that's- Yes ... the other thing. You have- Yes ... when you add into it HRV- 

    [00:15:34] Matt: Yeah, you're pretty safe ... you, yeah. I wouldn't do it without a HRV. I wouldn't sign off on it in that part then. 

    [00:15:38] Jackson: Mm. 

    [00:15:39] Matt: I feel like that just becomes s- you're relying on clients. 

    [00:15:43] Jackson: There's, there's a lot more moisture going up there. Yeah, 

    [00:15:45] Matt: yeah.

    [00:15:45] Jackson: Um, and I've ne- I've only ever calculated with the HRV scenario. Yeah. So I couldn't even tell you because I've just not done it. 

    [00:15:53] Matt: Yeah, okay. But, um- Yeah, going, going back though, I want, because it sort of ties into the conversation still. We're talking about the cost of passive [00:16:00] houses and still on airtightness.

    [00:16:01] I'd say that's really the only extra cost. So you're gonna pay a little bit more for some extra insulation. But I'd say the ma- major cost is actually wrapping internally airtight. Mm. Yeah. I'd, I'd say that, and then internally battened. That's where- 

    [00:16:14] Jackson: Well, it depends what you're comparing it to as well.

    [00:16:16] Matt: This is, this is, this is- And, and so- ... the great answer. So, 

    [00:16:20] Jackson: um, like Hamish was asking, what are the three standards that you build to at Endure, which is kind of how he asked it. Um, so we have a certified passive house- Yeah ... which is very clear. Everyone knows what that is. Um, high efficiency, and then energy efficient house.

    [00:16:38] So- High efficient, uh, homes, we, we achieve between 1.5 and 3 air changes per hour. 

    [00:16:49] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:16:50] Jackson: Um, and w- for all of our levels, we put the air tightness that we'll achieve in the contract. 

    [00:16:55] Matt: Even on a retrofit, if you're not taking the whole building apart, or is that separate? 

    [00:16:58] Jackson: Yeah. So if we're [00:17:00] doing reno additions- 

    [00:17:01] Matt: Yeah

    [00:17:01] Jackson: they, they generally will fall into, um, the energy efficient spec. Yeah. Sometimes, 'cause there's al- there's always little steps in between. Yeah. Sometimes we'll do an energy efficient one, but we'll put decentralized HRVs in the addition, for instance. Yeah. So it's like a, an energy efficient house with a twist.

    [00:17:19] But we, we actually have them as written standards in the business- Yeah ... so that all of our salespeople, designers, estimators, they know, like, this is the baseline for this standard that we need to include and we need to design for and all of that. 

    [00:17:34] Matt: So you'll design and construct as well? 

    [00:17:36] Jackson: Yes. 

    [00:17:36] Matt: Why? 

    [00:17:38] Jackson: Um, huh.

    [00:17:42] Matt: You can just say it as 

    [00:17:42] Jackson: it 

    [00:17:43] Matt: is. 

    [00:17:43] Jackson: Let's go back to the beginning. So I started the business, uh, with a really strong intention to work with architects and just work with architects, build great homes, build energy efficient homes. Then I started to grow the business, started to find [00:18:00] that, um, I was sending a lot of work to architects.

    [00:18:03] They were occasionally losing those clients for me. Um, and then they weren't keeping up with the workload I was sending them. So we had a couple of more straightforward jobs come through and, um, I designed them, and quickly worked out that I love the idea of designing, but it's not, it's not my skill set.

    [00:18:24] Um, and started to see that one benefit was the design came in on the client's budget It moved through the process from design to costing to approvals to contract really smoothly, and, um, and the client paid a lot less to get exactly what they wanted in terms of design phase. 

    [00:18:47] Matt: So you're saying architects don't design to budget?

    [00:18:50] Jackson: I'm saying that they miss more often than they hit. Um, and- 

    [00:18:55] Hamish: Fuck that, you poke bear. 

    [00:18:59] Jackson: And the thing [00:19:00] is, though, I'm not saying anything that I haven't said directly to architects. Yeah. And, um, and often it's in the same conversation as I say, "I would love to work with you, and I want, like I, I want to help you look good."

    [00:19:14] Matt: Yeah. "

    [00:19:15] Jackson: But you have to take on our, our advice." And there are architects that we do work with. So we design and do, but there, there are... There's two architects in Adelaide that we will work with- 

    [00:19:25] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:19:25] Jackson: because they, they don't just pay lip service to collaboration, they actually do it, and to the point where I'll go down to their office and sit there drafting on their- Yeah

    [00:19:36] computers with them, working in their Revit file to get the details nutted out. So, yeah. 

    [00:19:43] Matt: That's awesome. I think that's... Yeah, I love that. It's just not lip service collaboration. 'Cause it is, that's a thing. Yeah. 

    [00:19:50] Jackson: Oh, yeah. 

    [00:19:51] Matt: Yeah, it's act- very common thing 

    [00:19:53] Jackson: It's easy to use all the words. Yeah. It's like, "Um, I'm an energy efficient builder."

    [00:19:57] I'm like, "Cool, so do you put air tightness in your contracts?" "Oh, [00:20:00] no, no, I can't do that." "Well, do you use double glazing?" "Uh, sometimes." "Do you use thermally broken windows?" "Oh, no, they're too expensive." How, 

    [00:20:07] Hamish: how, how do you- Like here we go ... how do you use modeling to optimize your buildings? Yeah. Oh, never done, never done 

    [00:20:10] Jackson: that.

    [00:20:10] That's a great question. Oh, but check out, check 

    [00:20:12] Matt: out the kitchen design. How cool is it? 

    [00:20:13] Jackson: Yes. So there's, um... Yeah, I did, I haven't posted it yet, but, um, uh, we had a situation just before Easter in a passive house, not that it really matters, but it was a passive house, that we handed over. They are on a rural property, so their water comes from a tank, and it's- Yeah

    [00:20:36] gotta get pumped. The pump's brand new, been used for maybe two weeks before we hand it over, and the pump stopped working. And so we rang the pump supplier and we're like, "You know, got a problem with the pump." And they're like, "Oh, you just take it off, bring it back to us. We'll have a look at it, and we'll fix it up, and then we'll get it back to you."

    [00:20:56] I'm like, "How long is that gonna take?" "Oh, a couple of weeks." Hm. Like, "Well, we [00:21:00] can't... No, they're living in the house." Yeah. "Oh, well, that's what you gotta do." So- My idea of customer service- 

    [00:21:07] Matt: Yeah, it's not that ... 

    [00:21:08] Jackson: is that we went off and bought another pump. We went down, took the dodgy pump off, put the brand new one on, and we're off getting that one fixed.

    [00:21:19] And when it's done, they'll get that pump back and we'll take the pump that we bought away, and that'll sit in the shed until that happens again. Yeah. 'Cause I'm sure it'll happen again. And that, that meant that that client was without water for about 30 minutes while we switched it all over. And what I know is, I hear stories where some, some builders would just go, "Okay, well, all right.

    [00:21:46] Sorry you're without water, but you'll be fine." 

    [00:21:48] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:21:49] Jackson: And not care about it. 

    [00:21:51] Matt: And then they blame, and then they blame, and then they blame that Passivhaus doesn't work. That was it. But, which is the case of the water pump has nothing to do with the Passivhaus element. 

    [00:21:59] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:21:59] Matt: [00:22:00] Yeah. It, that's a... Why would they... I just don't understand why they go, "Yeah, hey, we'll bring you out another one.

    [00:22:05] Just change it over, and we'll take the old one 

    [00:22:06] Hamish: back." Absolutely. Yeah. "We'll, we'll be there, we'll be there in, on this date with a new pump, and we'll take the other one away." 

    [00:22:11] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:22:12] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:22:12] Hamish: We'll just give you a new one. That makes it simple 'cause- Yeah ... 'cause are you gonna buy a pump from these guys again? 

    [00:22:17] Jackson: No, they're done.

    [00:22:18] It, and, and that's, that's one thing that, like, our really good trades, they, they know that, you know, if they do good work, charge a fair price, don't let us down- It's 

    [00:22:30] Matt: money for Jam ... 

    [00:22:31] Jackson: they, they have an income for life from us. Um, and the ones that just don't care about it, and it's always swings and roundabouts.

    [00:22:41] I'm sure there are days where our trades cop it and, and maybe don't make as much off a job that they thought they would, but then there's probably other days where they have an absolute dream run and they're like, "Oh, I allowed that to take 20 hours, and it took me 18- Yeah ... I'm gonna get a little win." So it's always swings and roundabouts.

    [00:22:56] Hamish: Are you putting, uh, HRVs in all of your [00:23:00] buildings? 

    [00:23:01] Jackson: Not quite, but it's, the percentage is jumping up a lot. Yeah. Um, as we- we've worked out lots of different ways to do it that are, um, economical and, um, and we, I've, I've, I've worked really hard on educating my team on, like, how to talk about these things better so that clients feel a lot more, um- Or have a lot more understanding of what they're about to, you know, spend money on and how it benefits them 

    [00:23:36] Matt: This is a good topic because people...

    [00:23:39] Sales, and I don't think we ever really talk about... We're talking about marketing of Passive House and, and high performance, whatever you want to call it, but sales is a whole different thing, 'cause I constantly get on social media, kids reach out, I shouldn't say kids, people, and they're like, "Oh, I, I can't convince the client to use the, the Pro Clima membrane."

    [00:23:55] I'm like, "Just don't tell them." Like, do we need to tell them they're getting a HRV? 

    [00:23:58] Hamish: Make it a standard. Make it a standard. Mm. 

    [00:23:59] Matt: Like, [00:24:00] do we need to talk to them? Just be like, "Hey, do you want clean, fresh air?" "Yes." "Okay, we put one in." "Do you want it?" "No." "Okay, we won't put one in." 

    [00:24:05] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:24:06] Matt: Is it really... Do we just overcomplicate it?

    [00:24:08] Jackson: Yeah. I- I've definitely done that journey, where I've talked too much to clients about the technical stuff. 

    [00:24:17] Matt: We all do, though. 

    [00:24:18] Jackson: And, um- 

    [00:24:19] Hamish: I just think that's the biggest failing in marketing of high performance and Passive House. 

    [00:24:22] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:24:23] Hamish: We get excited about that shit, but I'd say that if you... Say, if you want to build 100 Passive Houses in a year, if you got stuck in the weeds and started talking about all the data- You don't have time to do it

    [00:24:32] you don't, we don't have the time to do it. Yeah. 

    [00:24:33] Jackson: And people probably don't give a shit either. 

    [00:24:33] Hamish: Yeah.

    [00:24:37] So- 

    [00:24:38] Matt: They just wanna know they're comfortable, and they want the emotion of the health and comfort. Like, so w- I live in one. I've come... Did you know that, Hamish? 

    [00:24:44] Hamish: I did. You know ... Things are grand. Yeah, I know. 

    [00:24:47] Matt: So- They, they g- 

    [00:24:49] Hamish: You know what? Let, I'm gonna stop you- So 

    [00:24:50] Matt: I've come, so I've left this morning, this, like, we, I left the house about 4:30 this morning- Yeah

    [00:24:54] uh, to get the flight here. Outside was eight degrees, 10 degrees. I had no idea, 'cause [00:25:00] you walk out. And then we come here, we're in the airport, it's nice and warm. Then you c- like, we're in a Passive House now, and the level of comfort is just like, "Cool, I'm so much happier again in here." Yeah. I can't, you can't describe it.

    [00:25:10] It's, it's weird. It's- 

    [00:25:12] Hamish: So just, just an observation. When we came in here- 

    [00:25:15] Matt: Mm ... 

    [00:25:15] Hamish: no one living in here. Yeah. So I actually, I walked in, I'm like, "Okay, cool. It's, it's, it's nice in here." 

    [00:25:21] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:25:21] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:25:22] Hamish: But as we've been in here, this is probably how a Passive House works, as we've been in here, the temperature's actually risen a little bit.

    [00:25:28] Matt: Yeah, we're 

    [00:25:28] Hamish: moving around. Because we're in here, and we're existing, and all that kind of stuff. 

    [00:25:31] Matt: Yep. Yep. 

    [00:25:32] Hamish: Um, 

    [00:25:32] Matt: so, like, there are 30 people that are coming tonight. That's like running the three kilowatt split system on a heater. That's exactly what it's gonna be like, 30 people in a house. 

    [00:25:41] Jackson: Yeah. The house, the, the house does warm up when we have a big group in here.

    [00:25:48] Matt: It's surprising how quick too, hey? 

    [00:25:50] Jackson: And- Any, any house does that. It's not like it magically occurs in passive houses. Um, the difference is that the heat [00:26:00] doesn't dissipate. Yeah. So- Yeah, it 

    [00:26:02] Hamish: stays in the house. 

    [00:26:03] Jackson: Yeah. Um- 

    [00:26:04] Matt: We should, we should track it. We should actually open all windows and doors. Have you got a sensor in here?

    [00:26:08] And see how long it takes people to get up- We 

    [00:26:09] Jackson: do, yeah. It's just behind the TV. Should 

    [00:26:11] Matt: see- Yeah ... how quickly it actually will hit temperature again. There's a phubbometer. I, I... Again, but you don't... What for? Mm-hmm. Like, like what's... We're not gonna- That doesn't sell to a client. 

    [00:26:20] Hamish: Because there's absolutely nothing planned in, in any of our conversations, if you're watching this video right now, and if you're looking at me and Jackson, there's a rammed earth wall behind us.

    [00:26:28] Jackson: Yes. 

    [00:26:28] Hamish: Now, is that architectural feature, is it thermal mass? Is it... How are you selling this thing to people? I'm pleased 

    [00:26:37] Jackson: you asked. 

    [00:26:40] Matt: There you go. Yeah. Jackson's got- That was even- Jackson, Jackson's got a, a rammed earth company now too. 

    [00:26:46] Jackson: A lot of our homes end up with rammed earth in them. 

    [00:26:48] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:26:48] Jackson: Um- '

    [00:26:49] Hamish: Cause I've been, I've been to a few now.

    [00:26:50] You took me on a, on a tour a couple of years ago. I love 

    [00:26:53] Jackson: it. 

    [00:26:53] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:26:54] Jackson: So, for this house, it's serving two purposes, both of [00:27:00] which you listed off already. Looks nice. Yeah. It's a piece of art on its own. Yeah, 

    [00:27:03] Hamish: it's beautiful. 

    [00:27:04] Jackson: Um- 

    [00:27:05] Matt: It's very red, like I haven't seen it this red through the lines. 

    [00:27:08] Jackson: Yeah. Well, it just depends where you, where- So-

    [00:27:10] what quarry you come from, or how much, um, oxide you put in. 

    [00:27:14] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:27:15] Jackson: Um, and the other purpose that it serves is that it's a temperature regulator. 

    [00:27:22] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:27:22] Jackson: So lots of people will, will go, "Oh, we need to put thermal mass in." And my next question is always, "You, do you want a battery or a regulator?" What are you talking about?

    [00:27:33] Yeah Car parts or? And I'm like, "No, no. Rammed earth takes an enormous amount of heat to heat it up, or an enormous amount- Yeah ... of cool exposure to cool it down because of the structure of it. There's all, like you can see that there's solid bits and really open bits. 

    [00:27:48] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:27:49] Jackson: And so it's containing bits of air in between the mass, and, uh, what that means is it stays at a pretty stable [00:28:00] temperature.

    [00:28:00] Um, and putting it in the two-story part means that we get that vertical airflow past it. 

    [00:28:06] Hamish: Ah, okay. It- 

    [00:28:07] Jackson: And I came across all of that a few years ago when someone sent me, one of the rammed earth guys we use, sent me a study that they did in Western Australia on the performance of rammed earth in houses.

    [00:28:23] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:28:24] Jackson: And they had temperature sensors at all different depths of the wall, and like a wall exposed to direct sun, the surface warmed up. But once you were in 20 mil, it was back to 8 degrees, and by the middle it was 16, and then- 

    [00:28:38] Hamish: Wow. 

    [00:28:39] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:28:39] Hamish: Does that, does that slowly make its way through the whole wall?

    [00:28:44] Like, over time. 

    [00:28:44] Jackson: No, just it, in, in that particular study, um, they, they found that it hit that peak temperature and didn't, it didn't really- Ah ... just keep heating. 

    [00:28:56] Hamish: Do you think this house would perform differently if you didn't [00:29:00] have the rammed earth here? 

    [00:29:02] Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would be a little bit hotter in summer.

    [00:29:07] And the- that's, that's the other thing about Passive House is you have to work out the performance of the house before you build it, and it also helps you in costing. So with this house, it's got all of this glass facing east, because when it's not raining, there's a great view out there. Um, and- 

    [00:29:29] Hamish: And no blinds.

    [00:29:30] Jackson: No. So, and there's a, there's a whole costing reason for that- Yeah ... that we were able to vet out in the Passive House, um, costing and design process. So we, with this design, in winter it has quite a low heating demand. 

    [00:29:49] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:29:50] Jackson: Uh- Do 

    [00:29:50] Matt: you know off the top of your head what it is? 

    [00:29:52] Jackson: I think it's 12. 

    [00:29:54] Matt: That's pretty good.

    [00:29:55] Jackson: Yeah. It's in the book downstairs. Yeah. Have a look later. Um, [00:30:00] and but we were right on the, right on the limit with cooling. 

    [00:30:05] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:30:05] Jackson: And- We looked at doing shading over these east-facing windows, and at the point in time that we were looking at that, we'd already costed the house, and included in the cost was six kilowatts of solar and the air conditioning system, the, the single split system.

    [00:30:25] Yeah. 

    [00:30:25] Hamish: You've just got the one in here? 

    [00:30:26] Jackson: Just one. 

    [00:30:27] Hamish: Wow, 

    [00:30:27] Jackson: okay. Yeah, does the whole house. And- 

    [00:30:29] Matt: A five 

    [00:30:30] Hamish: kilowatt? 

    [00:30:31] Jackson: Uh, seven. 

    [00:30:32] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:30:33] Jackson: And, um, I think if you had to do this whole house as like a normal house, you'd put in like an 18 or a 20. 

    [00:30:42] Matt: Oh, and, and not only that, you'd be using it the whole time to fight against the outside temperature.

    [00:30:47] Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. So then, so then we, we looked at shading, so we were like, "Okay, we can spend another 30-odd grand and put shading in." That would have to be retractable- Yeah ... hence the increased cost of [00:31:00] doing it. Yeah. Because we, 'cause if it was permanent, then our winter heating demand went over the threshold.

    [00:31:06] Yeah. And, uh, we worked out that we actually were gonna be producing enough solar energy in summer to just run the air conditioner, still be putting power back into the grid, and avoid spending the extra money. So sometimes building a passive house can actually save you going down the solar passive principles road and building a whole bunch of stuff you don't actually need.

    [00:31:28] This 

    [00:31:28] Matt: is a 

    [00:31:28] Hamish: good one- But also, but also still all of that and still getting a certified building. 

    [00:31:35] Jackson: Yes. 

    [00:31:35] Matt: Yeah. Def- I'd, I'd, I'd almost say as well, if you're putting hydronic in your brand new house, it'd be cheaper to build a passive house, just if you had to run with hydronic heating. Like the th- You're gonna spend 50 grand on the hydronic heating?

    [00:31:47] Jackson: 25. 

    [00:31:48] Matt: Really? 

    [00:31:49] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:31:49] Matt: I haven't done it 

    [00:31:50] Jackson: for years. I'm only familiar with that 'cause that's, that's what the hydronic's costing in our house. We're doing a certified passive house, but it's, um- 

    [00:31:59] Matt: So [00:32:00] why'd you put hydronic in? 'Cause this is my next question. You are, you're building your own house. 

    [00:32:04] Jackson: The negotiation thing.

    [00:32:06] So I've negotiated out a fireplace, and- Is this 

    [00:32:10] Hamish: negotiation with your wife? 

    [00:32:11] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:32:12] Matt: Yeah, 

    [00:32:12] Jackson: okay. Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:32:12] Matt: I can guarantee you, you will never turn that on. 

    [00:32:15] Jackson: No, and I, I f- I feel the same way because this house doesn't have hydronic heating, and- 

    [00:32:21] Matt: Have you, have you started building it? 

    [00:32:23] Jackson: No, we're demolishing it in two weeks.

    [00:32:24] Matt: So have you got a polished concrete slab? 

    [00:32:27] Jackson: No, this is the other thing. We've got, we've got timber going over the top. But, and, and, uh, for me- With over 

    [00:32:34] Hamish: slab, over slab insulation? 

    [00:32:35] Jackson: Yeah, under slab. 

    [00:32:36] Hamish: Under slab? 

    [00:32:36] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:32:37] Hamish: And then timber on top. 

    [00:32:37] Matt: So, so if, well, because, so this is really good, 'cause last night we came home at about 7:00, Nicole, myself, and Noah.

    [00:32:44] We left the front... It was, it's been cold like in Melbourne the last few days. The house, I've been playing with it. I actually didn't realize my HRV was still set to cooling mode, so it got down to 19 degrees. Mm-hmm. Yesterday we left the front- You 

    [00:32:55] Hamish: poor thing. 

    [00:32:56] Matt: I know. Um, so we left the front blind open. So we left the...

    [00:32:59] I don't know. So do you, do you wanna know how cold mine was this morning? So by the- It would've been [00:33:00] eight. It would've been eight degrees. 

    [00:33:05] Hamish: So 

    [00:33:05] Matt: by the time, by the time I put a pot of water on to heat some eggs up for Noah, it'd lifted a degree. But the, 'cause I've got a sensor right next to, around that area.

    [00:33:13] But what we noticed is we left the front blind open to get the north light in. Mm. Nicole was like, "Oh, t- Charlie, our dog's been, must have been laying here. It's all nice and warm here. And she's like, "Oh, it's warm here, too. Oh, it's warm here, too." Right. This slab is honestly... I've, and I've, I've been in houses with hydronic ceilings, heating on the floor.

    [00:33:31] It's the same. It, it honestly, as a decoupled slab, I reckon we sit very similar on a, on a temperature- Yeah ... when it actually holds. Haven't lived there in winter, that's why I say I don't think you'll ever turn it on. 

    [00:33:42] Jackson: Yeah. So- 

    [00:33:43] Hamish: But again, this is- 

    [00:33:45] Matt: A negotiation ... 

    [00:33:46] Hamish: a part of negotiation. 

    [00:33:47] Jackson: Absolutely. And, you know, it- 

    [00:33:49] Matt: Put your board, put the 

    [00:33:50] Jackson: wood fire out

    [00:33:50] building this house has been a massive, or designing it- 

    [00:33:52] Matt: Are you designing it for yourself, too, or have you got someone, an architect? 

    [00:33:56] Jackson: No. So, m-um, Carly, my wife, and I worked out [00:34:00] years ago that it's always good for us to use a third party because none of, none of my ideas get accepted off the bat. 

    [00:34:08] Matt: Sounds like this 

    [00:34:09] Jackson: is like the co- Yeah

    [00:34:09] it's like your- 'Cause I don't know what I'm doing. I have no idea 

    [00:34:12] Hamish: what I'm doing. So you're, you're not bringing the in-house, you're not bringing your in-house design team to design your home? 

    [00:34:16] Jackson: No, our in-house design team designed our house. I see. That's an idea. Cool. And they worked with Carly and I, and, and we got- You're, you're a client

    [00:34:22] we got treated like a client, and same with building it because I'm, I'm too busy ru- running- Yeah ... the businesses to be supervising the build. Um- 

    [00:34:29] Matt: Have you 

    [00:34:30] Jackson: found 

    [00:34:30] Matt: many inefficiencies? Like, why are we doing that? Why are we doing that? Or you're not looking at it that 

    [00:34:33] Jackson: way? I, I learnt, I learnt a few things about our sales process that from the outside when I created it I thought were great.

    [00:34:41] Yeah. But then from the inside I went, "Oh, we're gonna tweak that a little." So there were no, like, world-beating changes. 

    [00:34:48] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:34:49] Jackson: What I have learnt along the way is I have this... It's almost like a burden of knowledge and understanding about how the house will work [00:35:00] By, not only by just knowing how a design's gonna work because you get good at looking at a set of plans and going, "That's not gonna work.

    [00:35:07] That's g- that's gonna work great" Yeah. "That room's gonna be hot." Like, you guys would be able to... I'd give you a set of plans, and if I gave you my house plans- Yeah ... you'll identify the three major issues, and then I'll tell you how we overcame them. But you'd do it in the first two minutes looking at the plans.

    [00:35:21] Whereas Kylie is focused on the finishes and all of these sorts of things, and being concerned about being cold. 

    [00:35:31] Matt: Oh, you won't be cold. You, you'll actually overheat. 

    [00:35:33] Jackson: I know, 

    [00:35:34] Hamish: yeah. Sometimes too warm. Yeah. However, h- yeah, but I, I understand where Kylie's coming from, 'cause I've actually been to Jackson's house, and I know where- Yeah, the old one

    [00:35:42] I, the, sorry, the old one Yeah ... and I know where it is, and I can understand wh- or how that... I've never lived in it. I wasn't 

    [00:35:50] Jackson: living in it. And 

    [00:35:50] Hamish: it was a nice day when you were there, too. It was, it was a nice day, but knowing the Adelaide Hills and knowing how cold it can get, I'd, I understand. 

    [00:35:55] Matt: I'd put a wood fire heater in before you do it.

    [00:35:57] I was, I, I- I'd actually put the wood fire in before the hydronic ... 

    [00:35:59] Hamish: I've got this written down. So can [00:36:00] I ask why? 'Cause I, I would've done the same thing. I would've put a fireplace in. 

    [00:36:04] Jackson: Right. 

    [00:36:04] Hamish: I- if, if, if it was one or the other- Yeah ... one, fireplace is gonna be cheaper. 

    [00:36:08] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:36:08] Hamish: And 

    [00:36:09] Matt: two- Just a- there's ambience around it.

    [00:36:10] Hamish: I, I- Mm-hmm ... I don't know. L- And, and again, I probably, um, unfortunately for me w- with this decision, I know where you live. And I, and I know the context of where this place is. 

    [00:36:20] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:36:20] Hamish: And having a fire there, in my mind, makes more sense than hydronic. 

    [00:36:23] Matt: This is also crazy, 'cause I, I feel like I'm in your shoes now, having gone through this with Nicole, that I know the conversations you're gonna have.

    [00:36:31] And- But how 

    [00:36:32] Jackson: do you- Well, I mean, they're all had now. Like, you know, we're up to the demo of the house bit. But- But 

    [00:36:36] Hamish: h- how did you land on the, uh, hydronic? 

    [00:36:39] Jackson: Because we're gonna live there until I'm at least 100. 

    [00:36:44] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:36:44] Jackson: At le- 

    [00:36:44] Matt: at least 100. 

    [00:36:46] Jackson: Yeah. I'm gonna live till I'm 120. 

    [00:36:48] Hamish: Oh, wait. But- Yeah ... I mean, is it- Are you-

    [00:36:49] each conversation biohacking? I'm not- Is that what you're doing? 

    [00:36:51] Jackson: No, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, great. Well, I, I tell everyone I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work until I'm 110, then Kylie and I'll have 10 good years, and then- [00:37:00] Um- 

    [00:37:00] Matt: This'll be funny for you, 

    [00:37:01] Jackson: Jackson. 70. She doesn't, she doesn't see the humor in it so much, but, um- This is forever house

    [00:37:07] I love what I do. So, yeah. Yeah. So it's a forever house, and I don't wanna be cutting wood or buying wood and stacking it and sorting it and lighting the fire. I, I don't wanna be doing that. 

    [00:37:22] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:37:22] Jackson: okay. And I'd barely have time for that now, let alone- 

    [00:37:26] Hamish: And, okay, so, so that's the rationale for not putting a fireplace in 

    [00:37:30] Jackson: Yeah Don't 

    [00:37:30] Hamish: you have four kids?

    [00:37:32] Jackson: Yeah, but- Don't you have a servant to- I have kids. I do have kids Haven't you 

    [00:37:34] Hamish: got a servant to do that? Yeah, so trying to get my son last night to set the fucking table- ... was like, "Dude, just put the plates there and put- grab the plates out of there and put them on the table." It's like a two-second job. 

    [00:37:48] Matt: So what, what other things did you have to compromise on?

    [00:37:51] Jackson: Um- 

    [00:37:52] Matt: Do you care about the looks? 

    [00:37:54] Jackson: I care about, I care about making sure that the house looks good [00:38:00] because I'll be judged on it as, as a builder. 

    [00:38:03] Matt: I know that 

    [00:38:03] Jackson: feeling. Um, and, and Kylie, you know, one good thing there is that Kylie's very focused on how things look and, you know, wanting everything to be nice.

    [00:38:15] So- 

    [00:38:15] Matt: Have you got interior design in-house as well? 

    [00:38:18] Jackson: So for this, this house we used an external interior designer. Yeah. That came about purely because our guys were so under the pump- 

    [00:38:27] Matt: Yeah, okay ... 

    [00:38:27] Jackson: that we, uh, we just got to a point where I was like, to keep this moving, and, and the priority is always the paying clients, not me.

    [00:38:37] Yeah. So yeah, we went to an external designer. And it's 

    [00:38:40] Matt: good to see how the p- and you probably picked up some stuff from that as well, 'cause you're like, "Oh, we haven't looked at these materials," or, "Have we even thought about 

    [00:38:47] Jackson: that?" It's a good way to, it's a good way to, yeah, learn some things. 

    [00:38:49] Matt: Yeah. Have you gone crazy on the health aspect internally for the future?

    [00:38:52] Like have you... 'Cause I know when we did ours, I was not stopped, passive house wasn't, that was a start. 

    [00:38:58] Jackson: Mm-hmm. '

    [00:38:58] Matt: Cause we got so many things [00:39:00] inside. 

    [00:39:00] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:39:01] Matt: Have you gone further on that? 

    [00:39:02] Jackson: Yeah. So we've, um- We've got, uh, there's all the basic compliance things now of zero thresholds and the like. 

    [00:39:11] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:39:11] Jackson: Um, we're putting a lift in- Yeah

    [00:39:13] 'cause it's a two-story house. Uh, all of the hallways and, uh, are wide and, like, over 1.2. 

    [00:39:19] Matt: Yeah 

    [00:39:20] Jackson: And, um, the doors are 920s. So we- we've done all of the things to make the house really accessible over its life. 

    [00:39:29] Matt: Yeah 

    [00:39:30] Jackson: Um, my big focus beyond things like EMF and, um, material choice, but which most- most things now are low VOC anyway- Yeah

    [00:39:42] was actually, uh, flammability. 

    [00:39:44] Matt: Really? 

    [00:39:45] Jackson: Yeah. Like, we're sitting on a couch that would ignite in a heartbeat, and- 

    [00:39:50] Matt: Huh ... 

    [00:39:51] Jackson: um, that rug is synthetic as well. You're sitting on a synthetic chair. And there's actually a [00:40:00] lot of things that go into houses now that are not great for fire safety. 

    [00:40:06] Matt: Like what? What else? Um- Is it the s- the fu- the furnishing or actually the home?

    [00:40:11] Jackson: Well, there's- there's, like, the- the fur- the furnishings is one of the key ones. 

    [00:40:17] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:40:17] Jackson: Yeah Um, rugs and carpets that are- Yeah ... all synthetic. 

    [00:40:20] Matt: Yeah 

    [00:40:21] Jackson: Uh, a lot of cheaper cabinetry for some reason is really- 

    [00:40:26] Matt: High ... 

    [00:40:26] Jackson: really f- um- Yeah ... flammable. Uh, and then of course electronic things that- that light up and, 'cause they're made out of plastics, which are petrochemical products.

    [00:40:37] Um, and there's a... It all started when I watched a video on LinkedIn where they had two houses. One was furnished- Oh ... like the '50s. I 

    [00:40:47] Hamish: know, I know, I know the video 

    [00:40:48] Jackson: that you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And the other one was furnished with modern stuff, and it, and it reached, I think they call it flashover- 

    [00:40:53] Matt: Yeah

    [00:40:54] Jackson: in- in a very, like under 30 seconds, whereas the- the one from the [00:41:00] '50s, you could still wander around and hose things down. 

    [00:41:02] Matt: But on the flip side of that, though, is you have nothing that's, like, igniting in a passive house because it's generally all electric. 

    [00:41:10] Hamish: Yeah, but he's got four kids. 

    [00:41:12] Matt: Well, running around with a lighter, are they?

    [00:41:13] Maybe. Or a blowtorch. 

    [00:41:15] Jackson: I don't know. 

    [00:41:15] Hamish: Maybe. 

    [00:41:16] Jackson: You are right. You- you- Uh, I don't know the stats, but I imagine that a lot of house fires now are caused by electrical faults 

    [00:41:26] Matt: Or burning candles or- 

    [00:41:28] Hamish: Can I ask, um, in circles back to something I've got written here, part of the construction of your home, or I don't know, there is some structure that's gonna be CLT.

    [00:41:40] Jackson: The whole thing. Yeah. 

    [00:41:40] Hamish: The whole thing's CLT? 

    [00:41:42] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:41:42] Hamish: So- 

    [00:41:43] Jackson: Exposed? 

    [00:41:43] Hamish: Is- 

    [00:41:45] Jackson: No. 

    [00:41:47] Hamish: So, uh, but, but also, but also I wanna, I wanna try and unpack this CLT thing because we've looked at CLT a bunch of times- Mm-hmm ... and it can never stack up from a cost point of view. 

    [00:41:56] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:41:56] Hamish: And 'cause I'm assuming you're gonna be- 

    [00:41:58] Jackson: You're 

    [00:41:58] Hamish: paying for it.

    [00:41:59] using 110 mil [00:42:00] thick CLT for- 120. 120. All right. So then how much wood fiber on the outside of that, or rock wool? 

    [00:42:04] Jackson: Um, so yeah, we're doing, we're doing Basrock on the outside. Oh, 

    [00:42:08] Hamish: yeah, Basrock, yeah. 

    [00:42:09] Jackson: Um, and- 

    [00:42:10] Hamish: This is ren- rendered- 

    [00:42:12] Jackson: Rendered finish ... rendered finish? Yeah. So 100 mil of Basrock, and then- 

    [00:42:15] Matt: What... Is Basrock just Rockool equivalent, like 

    [00:42:17] Jackson: Stonewall?

    [00:42:18] Basically. Rockool, Rockwool, and 

    [00:42:18] Hamish: then you render it. 

    [00:42:19] Matt: Yeah, it's like a Stonewall, yeah. 

    [00:42:20] Jackson: Yeah, yep, same, same thing. Um- So 

    [00:42:23] Matt: there's an R2.5 externally then? 

    [00:42:25] Jackson: Yes. 

    [00:42:25] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:42:26] Jackson: Yep. Um, the reason that we did CLT on this house is we've got, uh, the upper level is bigger than the lower level. 

    [00:42:35] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:42:36] Jackson: So there's only, um, the two ends of the house, the walls are sheer walls.

    [00:42:42] They go all the way out, the whole length, but the front and back overhangs. 

    [00:42:46] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:42:46] Jackson: So it, it meant that we had a lot of cantilevers to deal with, and that meant a lot of steel structure And, and it's, it's got the... It's like [00:43:00] a square shape with the really fine, like, eyebrow look. 

    [00:43:03] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:43:04] Jackson: Yeah. You know? And trying to do it- Sounds 

    [00:43:08] Hamish: like you've got a, sounds like you've got a really low pitch roof here too, Jackson.

    [00:43:11] Jackson: Yep. 

    [00:43:11] Hamish: What, what- So 

    [00:43:11] Jackson: I've done a whole bunch of things- Yeah ... that people are like, "

    [00:43:17] Hamish: What?" Yeah. Like- How low is it? 

    [00:43:17] Jackson: There is- Is it 1.5? N- no, five. 

    [00:43:18] Hamish: Oh, okay. Okay. 

    [00:43:19] Jackson: That's fine. That's- Method to my madness. 

    [00:43:20] Hamish: Okay. 

    [00:43:21] Jackson: Um- 

    [00:43:22] Hamish: I have absolutely no doubt that every decision that you've made has a calculated reason behind it. 

    [00:43:27] Jackson: Yeah.

    [00:43:27] Hamish: Which is why I'm interested, because- 

    [00:43:28] Jackson: Tons of knowledge. 

    [00:43:29] Hamish: Yeah. Yep. 

    [00:43:30] Jackson: So, um, so yeah, when I looked at how we make all those cantilevers work, it meant a lot of steel. 

    [00:43:38] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:43:38] Jackson: And then just the detailing complexity went, brr. 

    [00:43:42] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:43:43] Jackson: And, and lots of need for a lot of foam, and we're in a bushfire-prone area. We're at the top of a hill.

    [00:43:49] There's a whole t- like seven acres of forest below us. 

    [00:43:53] Hamish: What's your, what- what's your BAL level there? 

    [00:43:55] Jackson: It's BAL 19 where the house is. 

    [00:43:57] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:43:57] Jackson: But you've obviously seen, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... down from [00:44:00] us, it's- Yeah ... so the, um, there was a big importance on avoiding things like foam on the outside of the building.

    [00:44:09] Yeah. And CLT ticked the box for the cantilevers, because it's basically like using tilt-up concrete. 

    [00:44:17] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:44:17] Jackson: Um, and, and made the structure a lot easier to just fix insulation to the entire outside of it. Put it in steel. And it's all rock wool. 

    [00:44:28] Matt: Yeah. But also racking forces, if you're on the top of a wind- of a hill.

    [00:44:30] Yes. Like, you're gonna get some pretty high winds. 

    [00:44:32] Jackson: Yeah. So, and that's been something that I've really impressed on the engineers, and, and as I've gone through detailing, there's a few details on the windward side of the house-- 

    [00:44:43] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:44:43] Jackson: that everyone's like, "Fuck, that's a bit overkill." I'm like, "You haven't lived here- Yeah

    [00:44:47] when it's sideways rain." Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. 

    [00:44:51] Matt: What windows? 

    [00:44:53] Jackson: Logic House. 

    [00:44:54] Matt: Have you... There. 

    [00:44:55] Jackson: So it was my first Logic House experience. 

    [00:44:57] Matt: Harley- Did you have, have you, have you had the meeting yet? 

    [00:44:59] Jackson: [00:45:00] Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:45:00] Matt: It's intense, isn't it? Yeah. No, 

    [00:45:01] Jackson: it's all done. They're on the boat. How... 

    [00:45:02] Matt: Did you have to, did you have to have a nap after it?

    [00:45:04] Were you just like, "Whoa, that's intense"? Yeah, it was a 

    [00:45:05] Jackson: lot. But- 

    [00:45:06] Hamish: I'm pict- I'm just imagining a conversation with Jackson and Harley, like, I'd love to be a fly on the wall there. I- Just details, details. 

    [00:45:12] Jackson: I like Harley. Harley's really- 

    [00:45:14] Matt: That they're good- ... organized ... their method is- 

    [00:45:16] Jackson: And orderly. 

    [00:45:17] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:45:17] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:45:17] Jackson: And- 

    [00:45:18] Matt: And they'll arrive the day that they tell you s- 26 weeks in advance.

    [00:45:21] Jackson: Yeah. Well, that's good to know. 

    [00:45:23] Matt: They literally... I've, I have them in my house. I dunno. Yeah. 

    [00:45:26] Hamish: Where are you getting the CLT from? 

    [00:45:28] Jackson: Uh, NexTimber. Timberlink in Mount Gambier. Oh, yeah. 

    [00:45:32] Matt: Yep, yep. 

    [00:45:33] Jackson: So they, um, yeah, they made the most sense, 'cause they're local. 

    [00:45:37] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:45:38] Jackson: Uh, they do a lot of CLT to Victoria from there. Yeah. And, um- It's been a pretty good process with them as well 

    [00:45:48] Matt: So any exposed CLT anywhere?

    [00:45:51] Jackson: No. 

    [00:45:51] Matt: Not even on like a ceiling? No. You could, do you, are you, is this a touching point for you, like you really wanted to expose it? 

    [00:45:57] Jackson: Uh- 

    [00:45:58] Matt: Is this one of the things you had to give up on? 

    [00:45:59] Jackson: [00:46:00] No, it wasn't. I, I, um- W- so when we moved into the house that we're living in now- Yeah ... which Hamish has bri- bri- briefly walked through.

    [00:46:11] Yeah. It's all pine matchboard everywhere. I see 

    [00:46:13] Matt: you've had that. 

    [00:46:14] Jackson: And I just couldn't... I, I get that lots of people really love it. Yeah. And that's great, it's good on them. But it's not my, not my bag. 

    [00:46:23] Matt: Are you having, like, are you having any timber inside or is it, like, white walls? Like, what does it look like?

    [00:46:27] Jackson: So th- this is where, you know, I've, I've accepted what what is desired. 

    [00:46:33] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:46:34] Jackson: Um, uh, so it's mainly, mainly gonna be white walls with... There's bits of stone, feature stone through it. 

    [00:46:42] Matt: Yeah, 

    [00:46:43] Jackson: yeah. And, and there's a bit of money going into the cabinetry- 

    [00:46:46] Matt: Yeah, okay ... 

    [00:46:46] Jackson: to, to finish the house off. And I, I'm a, I'm a big proponent for cabinetry does really, it, it really finishes the house off.

    [00:46:56] It's worth- It does. Agree ... spending the money on. Yeah, totally. You know, if, if you're gonna spend money on [00:47:00] areas of the house, you spend it on the thermal envelope and the cabinetry and everything else. Yeah. 

    [00:47:04] Matt: Joinery's generally about 10 to 15% of a project cost on average, I would say. 

    [00:47:10] Jackson: You must have a really cheap cabinet maker.

    [00:47:12] We've gotta, I've gotta get his number. Ours is 

    [00:47:14] Matt: way more than that. Of, of, of all... No, but on, like, the average client. 

    [00:47:17] Jackson: Right. 

    [00:47:17] Matt: Not, not your place. If you took the average client, would you say it's 10, 15? 

    [00:47:21] Jackson: Well, I'm talking about our average client. 

    [00:47:22] Matt: Oh, yeah, geez. Yeah. You put a lot in then. 

    [00:47:24] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:47:25] Matt: Yeah, 

    [00:47:25] Jackson: okay. Yeah. 

    [00:47:26] Matt: Yeah.

    [00:47:28] Yeah, wow. Um- 

    [00:47:29] Hamish: Um, what's the build time? 

    [00:47:32] Jackson: The build time, in the way that we've scheduled it, is currently 10 months. 

    [00:47:37] Matt: Wow. 

    [00:47:38] Jackson: The... I actually think we're gonna do it a lot quicker than that, 'cause one of the X factors for us is how quickly we'll get the CLT up. 

    [00:47:47] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:47:47] Jackson: I think we're gonna get the CLT up in about two weeks, and everyone else is like, "

    [00:47:54] Hamish: No, it's gonna take a month.

    [00:47:55] It's gonna take six weeks." I'm like, that's 

    [00:47:56] Jackson: how long it takes to frame it. Yeah. 

    [00:47:58] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:47:58] Jackson: It, it'll be- [00:48:00] Yeah. Yeah. So that... The other, the other thing too that, um, the, my construction manager and the site manager that's running the job, I, I've got them... They did the first schedule, and it was about 12, and then we pulled it back in a few spots.

    [00:48:19] And then I said, "Once that CLT's up, we can start fit-out inside- Yeah ... while you're doing Bassrock and rendering and all of that stuff." And so I said, "You can have work going on two fronts." And on that site, we've got all the parking space in the world. We've got all the drop-downs, because it's five acres, so there's no- Just 

    [00:48:39] Matt: store stuff.

    [00:48:40] Jackson: Yeah, there's no limit on having stuff delivered early. Mm. So I, I'm, I'm really hoping that we'll, we'll be able to pull it, pull it ahead. But yeah. 

    [00:48:51] Hamish: I mean, I, I know we probably didn't sit here talking, trying, you know, talk about how you're gonna build this thing, but I'm, am curious about how the CLT and the roof's sitting.

    [00:48:58] Is it, is it 120 on the roof as well?[00:49:00] 

    [00:49:04] Jackson: Well, you've got to be happy- No, it's thicker than that. It's 160, I reckon. One, so it's a 160 

    [00:49:07] Hamish: roof, and you got that at, at a five-degree fall? 

    [00:49:09] Jackson: Yeah. Okay. With, um, with that Hero- Okay ... 

    [00:49:11] Hamish: on the top. 

    [00:49:12] Jackson: That 

    [00:49:12] Hamish: was gonna be my next question. Is the whole thing in Hero? 

    [00:49:14] Jackson: Yes. 

    [00:49:15] Hamish: Okay. Yeah. So you're gonna get the structure up, and then just Hero the shit out of it?

    [00:49:19] Jackson: Uh, it'll come with that Hero on. So when it all gets here- Oh, wow. Great. Yeah, awesome ... it'll be, it'll be a big, big blue box- 

    [00:49:24] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:49:24] Jackson: Yeah ... with a few bits missing. And just- Um, like on the backside of parapets and stuff- Yeah ... that we'll then intel- we, we'll, um- 'Cause it's gonna be- ... add Hero on site. It's 

    [00:49:32] Hamish: gonna be my next question.

    [00:49:33] You're building in the Adelaide Hills, and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to work through this timing 

    [00:49:37] Jackson: and this- Oh, in winter too. 

    [00:49:38] Hamish: Yeah, the CLT's gonna be going up in August- Ah, it's gonna be 12 months ... I'd imagine. And it will, like, until like- Yes, until the 

    [00:49:42] Jackson: 3rd of August. 

    [00:49:43] Hamish: Yeah. Great. See, picked it. And I'm like, it's gonna be raining, like, all get out.

    [00:49:49] How are you protecting it? So then- This has 

    [00:49:50] Matt: got a great Grand Designs episode written all over it. 

    [00:49:53] Jackson: Well, one of the, one of the reasons that, uh... Originally we were not gonna start the house until [00:50:00] October so that we got into the drier part of the year. 

    [00:50:02] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:50:05] Jackson: The reality, it's like when people say to me, "Oh, you know, we don't wanna start in winter because, like, your concrete i- you can't concrete in winter."

    [00:50:12] I'm like, "You know they have to earn an income all year round." Yeah. 

    [00:50:15] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:50:15] Jackson: So- 

    [00:50:16] Hamish: But also, it doesn't rain every single day in winter. 

    [00:50:18] Jackson: No. No, and we're building a house that's gonna be constantly drying out. 

    [00:50:23] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:50:23] Jackson: So- 

    [00:50:24] Matt: And once you're, once you're locked up, it doesn't matter if it rains every day. Once the, the CLT's up and membraned, like, you're- Mm

    [00:50:30] set. 

    [00:50:31] Hamish: Yeah. No, uh, that, yeah, so that, that's, that's... I've, I've got no further questions, your honor. 

    [00:50:36] Jackson: I didn't think you were gonna ask me this many questions about the house. 

    [00:50:39] Hamish: Oh, but I'm curious, so ... 

    [00:50:40] Jackson: I thought this was gonna be, like, a business conversation. Well, 

    [00:50:43] Hamish: it 

    [00:50:43] Jackson: can 

    [00:50:43] Hamish: be. We can- Well, what did you want to ask me?

    [00:50:45] Matt: We can talk about business. All right. So what's, uh, what's something that we should have talk, um, like, spoken about that we- Yeah ... didn't talk about, then? 

    [00:50:50] Jackson: I, I have no idea. It... This is the hard thing. You guys made me fill out this form, and I, it was a bit panicked. I, because, I was- But I, I think- The only thing, Hamish, was this, [00:51:00] like-

    [00:51:03] We just pre- Like, anal retentive with this podcast We, we just pretend we are. Yeah, 

    [00:51:04] Hamish: right Can I tell, can I tell, can I tell that, um, Jackson messaged me on a weekend one day- This 

    [00:51:08] Jackson: is a panicked text from me ... 

    [00:51:09] Hamish: wh- on, on the weekend. I was working at my house, he's working at his house. I get this video going, "Oh man, I've, I filled this form out.

    [00:51:15] What do you wanna talk about?" I go, "All right, that's really just a formality- ... and it's just fallback stuff." Did you, did you read the- And 

    [00:51:21] Matt: that's not the- Did you read the form? 

    [00:51:22] Hamish: I did- ... and that's where I got the CLT from, so I'm glad that you did fill the form out. But I'm like, dude, me and Matt are probably the most organized unorganized people you'll ever meet, and we're just gonna have a chat.

    [00:51:32] So 

    [00:51:32] Matt: we had Jesse Clark a few weeks ago, and he's like, "What are we talking about? I don't know. We'll work that tomorrow." We'll find 

    [00:51:36] Jackson: out as we go 

    [00:51:37] Matt: And, and so he sits there and goes, "So what are we talking about?" And we're like, "We don't know." We don't know. He's like, "Well, we're live." And we're like, "What do you wanna talk about?"

    [00:51:43] He's 

    [00:51:43] Hamish: like, "Oh, 

    [00:51:44] Matt: shit." Um, so we- let, let's go, let's touch on business, 'cause you do have some pretty big business aspirations. Like, what are... Like, at the moment, one thing that I'm trying to, like, nail in is my financials. It's something that, like, knowing my numbers, 'cause it's all, for so long it's been in the back of my head and I'm just [00:52:00] like, I know it, but it's never there for me.

    [00:52:02] Like, where did you start to learn about all that sort of stuff, and where did you, how did you educate yourself on those sort of things? 

    [00:52:07] Jackson: So way, way back, I actually, I went and started studying accounting at uni. Yeah. 

    [00:52:14] Matt: Yeah, wow. 

    [00:52:14] Jackson: Um, I didn't get through the degree, 'cause it got a bit boring. 

    [00:52:18] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:52:19] Jackson: Um- 

    [00:52:19] Hamish: You gonna tell me which part of accounting got boring?

    [00:52:22] Jackson: Uh, it was when we got into, like- All of it ... international finance and it was starting to- I'd find that interesting ... not be, like, anything I wanted to do. So, uh, I... So I kind of come from an accounting background. Yeah. I, I love the numbers- 

    [00:52:36] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:52:37] Jackson: and understanding financials. Um, and I got really lucky when I started in Juray because I stumbled on the Association of Professional Builders.

    [00:52:46] Matt: Okay. 

    [00:52:47] Jackson: And, um, I worked with them for the first- Five years, I reckon- 

    [00:52:53] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:52:53] Jackson: of the business. Um, and they have [00:53:00] definitely got it dialled in- Yeah ... with construction company financials. Yeah. You know, what's important to watch and- 

    [00:53:07] Matt: What's 

    [00:53:07] Jackson: not ... and what's not. Do you still work 

    [00:53:08] Matt: with them? 

    [00:53:09] Jackson: Yes. So I had a few years where I went and worked with someone different.

    [00:53:13] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:53:13] Jackson: Um, and then I've just recently started working with them again. This time around, our focus isn't about that fundamental stuff. Yeah. We're talking about ne- next steps with the business. Like 

    [00:53:24] Matt: scale. 

    [00:53:25] Jackson: Um, yeah. And, uh, in particular, one thing- Right ... that APB are doing really, really well right now is their, their R&D on the use of AI is the best of...

    [00:53:42] They have a guy who's, I mean, he's the ops manager for the business- 

    [00:53:45] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:53:46] Jackson: but the bulk of his role is developing AI tools and developing AI training. 

    [00:53:52] Matt: Okay. 

    [00:53:52] Jackson: So, um, but back to the financials. So, like, the key thing that most builders miss is that what their work in progress [00:54:00] is- Yeah ... which is essentially an accounting adjustment that you should be doing every month to find out whether you actually made a profit or not, because it a- it adjusts for your actual liability for the work in front of you.

    [00:54:13] Matt: And most tools like Wonderbuild have it built in now, but you should still run a separate spreadsheet- 

    [00:54:18] Jackson: Yeah ... which I've learned. So Wo- Wonderbuild will knock out the WIP i- I gotta be careful not to upset Hashi. But he, he knows that we're finding it very clunky to m- to manage the numbers really well. 

    [00:54:33] Matt: Yeah.

    [00:54:33] Jackson: So there's, there's work going on to... I, I think that o- one thing I've learned is that I think lots of builders are happy to accept quite a bit of sloppiness with their numbers, whereas w- we're not. 

    [00:54:46] Matt: That's my problem right now. I don't wanna slit- I don't want sloppiness, and that's- Yeah ... where I'm starting is, like, where do I start?

    [00:54:51] Yeah. 'Cause I want something. 

    [00:54:53] Jackson: So, I mean, f- obviously financials by every job, getting that WIP number, making that, [00:55:00] um, it's basically a manual journal entry every month- 

    [00:55:03] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:55:03] Jackson: which adjusts your cost of goods sold so that you get a true figure for where, where you're at. Um, and it also corrects your balance sheet.

    [00:55:12] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:55:12] Jackson: So, but for, for profitability it's really important. Um, and making sure that, that the total value of your WIP, you should have at least that amount of money in the bank. And if you don't, you're in real strife. And I actually, I looked at buying another building company, uh, last year, maybe the year before, and he gave me his financials and I, I went through and calc'd his WIP based on his work- 

    [00:55:42] Matt: Yeah

    [00:55:42] Jackson: while we were sitting there. 

    [00:55:44] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:55:44] Jackson: And I was like, "Oh, you're about 500 grand in the hole." He's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "You, you're, at some point in the next 12 months, y- you, you're gonna run out of cash." And, um, we then, we then agreed- Yes, yeah ... that I wasn't gonna buy that [00:56:00] liability. And, uh, six months later I was chatting with him, still chat to him.

    [00:56:05] Yeah. Like, it was just one of those things and it didn't work out. Um, and he said, "Yeah, you know that comment you made about the..." Yeah. He said, "We're trading through it, but had you not said that, I would've not known that was coming and I was actually partially prepared. It's still hurting me." 

    [00:56:21] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:56:21] Jackson: So that, if, if you ever thought that what I said about WIP being important is not important, that, that story alone, and because I knew how to calc it, at leas- I did it while we were sitting there at the table and, um, and I was probably, you know, I might have been correct, give or take 50 grand.

    [00:56:42] Yeah. But it didn't really matter in the scheme of it. Yeah, yeah, 

    [00:56:44] Matt: yeah. 

    [00:56:45] Jackson: Um, and if you know that number then you know whether you can sleep well at night or whether you need to start looking at your opex or look at getting more work on. 

    [00:56:56] Matt: And did you learn that from your accounting background or is that from- 

    [00:56:58] Jackson: That was APV.

    [00:56:59] [00:57:00] The WIP thing was all APV. Yeah. I knew what WIP was. Yeah. And I knew how it worked, but calculating it properly- Yeah ... I learned from APV. Would never have learned it without them. So 

    [00:57:09] Matt: you've invested a fair bit of money in coaching then over the years? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Have you found that 

    [00:57:11] Jackson: it's worth it or? Yes.

    [00:57:12] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:57:15] Jackson: I, um- I had, I've had as many years where I've gone, "I can't believe I'm spending all this money on coaching. It's not doing anything for me", as, as I've had where I've gone, "

    [00:57:29] Matt: Eh, 

    [00:57:29] Jackson: I suppose I got something out of it." But then when I look back over the last 10 years- 

    [00:57:33] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:57:34] Jackson: and I go, the business has consistently moved in the direction that I planned for it to move in, and that is entirely down to having a second source of accountability and a, and someone that you can talk to about the things of the business where you're not, you don't have to hold anything back- Yeah

    [00:57:55] 'cause you're paying them to be the sounding board. Um, and [00:58:00] in particular, working with a coach that works with other builders, they have a good knowledge base to draw on. Yeah. It's like giving an AI context. 

    [00:58:07] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:58:07] Jackson: Like, a coach that is in the industry has the context of a whole bunch of other builders that have the same problems, different problems.

    [00:58:15] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:58:15] Jackson: Builders that used to have a problem, then they grew, and now they got another problem, and they can see that you're going to a similar place, so that you can- 

    [00:58:23] Matt: They'll catch it before you know it's even a thing. 

    [00:58:25] Jackson: Yeah. So there's a lot of problems that I probably avoided hitting altogether purely because of coaching.

    [00:58:31] Matt: Interesting. 

    [00:58:32] Jackson: Yeah. But it's a big pill to swallow some months. 

    [00:58:35] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:58:35] Jackson: Especially when, like good coaches, you spend four and a half, five grand a month, um, and you go, "Man, I could hire two VAs for that." 

    [00:58:45] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:58:45] Jackson: Or I could have someone- That's my- ... part-time in admin for that. 

    [00:58:48] Matt: That's my brain. 

    [00:58:50] Jackson: Yep. And, um, my brain goes there all the time.

    [00:58:55] Yeah. But here I am still going- Still talking about it ... still working with a [00:59:00] coach. How, how... 

    [00:59:00] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:59:00] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [00:59:02] Matt: Yeah. I mean, and that's interesting 

    [00:59:03] Jackson: for- Plenty of shit coaches out there too. 

    [00:59:05] Matt: How do you identify a shit coach then? 

    [00:59:08] Jackson: That's, um- That's, that's tricky. I think one of the first things is y- I, I really notice people that are organized- 

    [00:59:21] Matt: Yeah

    [00:59:21] Jackson: and that have taken the time to understand me. So they rock up at the meeting ready to talk about something, and, um, rather than ready to sort of sit down and go, "Okay, so tell us what's going on." 

    [00:59:34] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:59:34] Jackson: If I get that, and I did, I did have that with APB at one point. Yeah. So I, I jumped in and did some coaching with them, and that coach was a bit like that.

    [00:59:43] He doesn't work there anymore, and that's, part of that was probably 'cause of my experience with him. 

    [00:59:49] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:59:49] Jackson: But he, he just, to give you an idea of a bad coach, he wasn't... He looked at my stuff and was like, "Yeah, no, you, you look like you're going well." He's not 

    [00:59:58] Matt: reactive. 

    [00:59:59] Jackson: [01:00:00] Yeah. There was no, there was no, "Show me the evidence that you did that."

    [01:00:03] Matt: Yeah. "

    [01:00:03] Jackson: Show us what you worked out. You said you wrote these procedures. Let's have a look at them." And a good coach will do that- Call you out ... and be completely unapologetic when you go- Yeah ... "Oh, well, oh, oh, eh, uh, uh." A good coach will go, "It's either done or it's not done." Yeah. And that's how I've been coached, is like- 

    [01:00:18] Matt: I, I, I take off footy

    [01:00:19] there's no 

    [01:00:19] Jackson: maybes. 

    [01:00:20] Matt: That's how I am in footy, like yell at me. Tell me when I've done something wrong. I don't- I'm old school. I don't wanna be like, "Oh, they could try." Like, fuck off. Yeah. Tell me that was shit, you need to be better. Like, I'm okay with that. It's not, it's not personal. 

    [01:00:31] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [01:00:32] Matt: They're actually there to help you.

    [01:00:34] Um- 

    [01:00:35] Jackson: Yeah. And there are other coaches around, it's just obviously for me right now, APB is top of mind. And that- 

    [01:00:40] Matt: And you should change. I feel like I've, like I've never done coaching, but for me it's something that you kind of want different coaches over different times so you just don't get stuck- Yep ... in the same, the same thing.

    [01:00:49] Yeah. 

    [01:00:50] Jackson: So my last coach I started with in 2020. 

    [01:00:54] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:00:54] Jackson: Um, and finished up with him in, uh, it was [01:01:00] January this year. 

    [01:01:00] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:01:01] Jackson: Um, and yeah, w- when I got to the point of saying, "Look, you know, I wanna finish up coaching." 

    [01:01:08] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:01:08] Jackson: He was like, "You know, I was kinda thinking that we'd, we'd hit a point where I, I'm, I'm not adding any new value."

    [01:01:16] Yeah. He said, "There's other things I could do for you- 

    [01:01:18] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [01:01:18] Jackson: but I think that you're probably ready to kinda graduate out of working with me." 

    [01:01:23] Matt: Yeah. Which is 

    [01:01:23] Jackson: good. Which I thought it was, yeah, really good for him. 

    [01:01:27] Matt: So... Yeah. I think you should put a timeline on it 

    [01:01:31] Hamish: True, but I reckon it's different for every person.

    [01:01:33] Jackson: Yeah, it is different for every person. Yeah, yeah. 

    [01:01:34] Hamish: Now, before we wrap up, you, you, you touched on systems and processes really quickly just before. I know you just touched on it. Now I know that you've got your... Well, knowing you, you've got your business pretty dialled in from a systems, systems point of view.

    [01:01:47] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [01:01:48] Hamish: How important are systems and processes in a business that wants to scale? 

    [01:01:52] Jackson: Um, that, that, that is a similar level of importance as, as having blood in your body. [01:02:00] 

    [01:02:01] Matt: Nice. 

    [01:02:01] Hamish: Checkmate. No, I, I think it's... I, I 100% agree with you. Yeah. We've ac- we've actually got, um, James Brown coming on tomorrow- Right ... from Systemology.

    [01:02:11] Jackson: Yep. 

    [01:02:12] Hamish: Uh, we've already, uh, interviewed, um- What's his name? Dave Jennings- 

    [01:02:17] Jackson: Yeah ... 

    [01:02:17] Hamish: as well. Yeah. And, and like we're, we're actually on this, uh, massive journey at the moment of completely systemizing our business. 

    [01:02:23] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [01:02:24] Hamish: And the more I get into it, the more excited I get, and the more I look myself in the mirror every morning and say, "Why the fuck didn't you do this 10 years ago?"

    [01:02:32] Jackson: Yeah. 

    [01:02:33] Hamish: Like, it's so important. Yeah. And when you think about all the things that need to happen within your business, how much easier that would be, how much clearer your head would be, is if all you needed to do was go and look at your diary and go, "I'm doing these three things today. I... Yeah, I know where to find that system."

    [01:02:49] Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's... Lots of people talk about it, right? 

    [01:02:54] Hamish: That, that camera's just gone- Yeah, we- ... for some reason. It's all right. 

    [01:02:56] Jackson: Well, what, uh, lots of people [01:03:00] say, lots of business coaches say, "Oh, it's about freeing the founder. Put systems in and free the founder." I actually look at it from the other way- 

    [01:03:07] Hamish: Yeah

    [01:03:07] Jackson: which is when you hire your team and you induct them into what the systems and processes are and what the policies are, they actually, they know where they stand, and they know what to do, and they know how to do stuff. And, um, they actually enjoy work more, 'cause they're not standing there going, "Oh, shit, how do I do this?"

    [01:03:27] Matt: Let's finish this off. We have a segment called The Mindful Moment sponsored by MEGT, Australia's leading apprenticeship experts. Um, Hamish's camera's died, so he can still talk. Uh, so one thing that I've noticed with- It's probably 

    [01:03:41] Hamish: better that my camera's off then, it won't distract everybody with my good looks.

    [01:03:44] Matt: Yeah. So you got a haircut as well for Adelaide. Anyway- 

    [01:03:47] Jackson: Who 

    [01:03:47] Matt: knows? I have a issue with apprentices going and buying these real expensive cars, spending $70,000 on a brand-new Hilux as a second-year apprentice. Like, what? Ranger. Ranger, whatever. Any, any car. Like, [01:04:00] I think it's a waste of money personally. I think if you're a young kid starting an apprenticeship, go buy an appropriate car for what you need.

    [01:04:07] Um, don't go buy one of those Holden SS' that, the tub on the back. Go, go get a van. Go get something that can actually store all your tools that's also gonna be cost-effective to run, um, but is going to work for you. Now, I respect that as a, as a young tradie, that you're also probably out and about on weekend and doing things, and your personal car also becomes your work car.

    [01:04:28] But don't waste your money on a huge car and an expensive 

    [01:04:31] Hamish: car. I would... You know what? If, if I had a first, second-year apprentice, and they rocked up in a van, and it could be, like, a 2010- Yeah ... Hiace van- 

    [01:04:40] Matt: Perfect ... 

    [01:04:40] Hamish: and it was decked out, I would have so much more respect for them than if they rocked up in a brand-new Ranger.

    [01:04:46] Matt: I'd probab- I'd just- I just don't understand it. It just seems to me like just such a waste. It, it's, it's a classic young kid in that sort of fictitious Instagram, "Look how good, look how good I am with my- Yeah ... with my brand new..." [01:05:00] Yeah. I've, yeah. 

    [01:05:00] Hamish: On a roller. But, and then I'll get, I'll get, get Jackson's take on this too.

    [01:05:04] It, like, they might come back and say, "Yeah, well, it's a tax deduction." 

    [01:05:07] Matt: Ta- it's not a tax deduction as an 

    [01:05:09] Jackson: apprentice. It's not a tax deduction if you're an employee. You... The- 

    [01:05:11] Matt: It's more than your yearly wage, so therefore it's not a tax deduction. 

    [01:05:14] Jackson: Yeah. You can look at it different ways, right? You, you could say they now have a car payment, so they're definitely gonna keep rocking up at work.

    [01:05:22] Um, you, you could also, you could also say they've got a reliable car, but there's plenty of, plenty of scope- Yeah ... for older reliable cars. Um, I, I think it's, what you're talking about is a generational thing that's hard to o- I don't- Yeah. No, I agree. I agree with everything that you said, but it, it is something that I work on with my kids a lot, is that it's okay not to have everything the moment that you want it.

    [01:05:53] And, um, and that's, that's always made more difficult because, [01:06:00] you know, they're, they're, they're living in this place where we're building a house and, you know- Yeah, yeah ... we don't drive nice cars- Yeah ... and all these things and, but it actually brings it home to me to make sure that, like, my kids see me fixing all of my old stuff and keeping it going.

    [01:06:18] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:06:18] Jackson: And, like, the old truck that I bought that I keep on the road by hook or by crook, and, um, and that, that helps them to go, "Ah, so yes- Yeah ... you can have nice stuff, but pick your nice stuff and have- 

    [01:06:34] Matt: And look 

    [01:06:34] Jackson: after it ... have things that you... Yeah, everything else you look after." But it's also too, I would never, I would- I would never quickly judge an apprentice if they rocked up in a brand new car because they might have had their parent in their ear saying, "Oh, now you've got a job, get a new car."

    [01:06:53] And it might not have been them, or it might've been their mates. You never know. Thanks 

    [01:06:56] Hamish: for challenging us there, Jackson. I, I, I do appreciate that, so- [01:07:00] I 

    [01:07:00] Matt: actually agree with it . 

    [01:07:01] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:07:01] Matt: Anyway, Jackson, thanks for coming on today. 

    [01:07:04] Jackson: No worries. 

    [01:07:04] Matt: What's the best way for people to get onto you? 

    [01:07:06] Jackson: Uh, the Enduro Builders Instagram- 

    [01:07:09] Matt: Yep

    [01:07:10] Jackson: which is easy to find. Climasure, which is climasureSA- 

    [01:07:13] Matt: Yep ... 

    [01:07:13] Jackson: on Instagram. That's, um- And that's for 

    [01:07:15] Matt: all the Pro Clima products if you're in s- SA. 

    [01:07:18] Jackson: Yes. Yeah. And we sell, um, uh, some cavity closures- Yeah, awesome ... that we make ourselves, which are- 

    [01:07:23] Matt: Oh ... 

    [01:07:24] Jackson: bush fire compliant, um, good in the corrosion zone. 

    [01:07:27] Matt: Yeah, amazing.

    [01:07:28] Jackson: All that. 

    [01:07:28] Hamish: Awesome. Perfect. Thanks for coming on, mate. Thanks for coming on. And thanks for letting us, uh, record- Bye Jackson ... in your- Display 

    [01:07:32] Jackson: home ... display 

    [01:07:34] Hamish: home. 

    [01:07:34] Jackson: My pleasure. Oh, yeah. Thank 

    [01:07:35] Hamish: you Also, if, if you are listening and you're in South Australia, how can they come and have a look at this home? 

    [01:07:39] Jackson: Um, the easiest thing to do is, uh, book a tour through the website.

    [01:07:43] Hamish: Yep. 

    [01:07:44] Jackson: Uh, and we are sort of, we are looking at, um, we've got some additional staff coming back from mat leave soon, and we are looking at opening it on the weekends- Oh, cool ... when she's back. Oh, cool. So, yeah. 

    [01:07:56] Hamish: Awesome. Thanks. Thank you. [01:08:00] Cheers.

Matthew Carland
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