Proving the three little pigs wrong
"Straw? You want to build with straw?"
That's the reaction Derek Layfield from Durra Panel gets when he tells people his building material of choice.
But before you dismiss this as another three little pigs scenario, consider this: Durra Panels have been protecting major Australian airports and surviving bushfire tests since the 1950s. We sat down with Derek to understand why straw might be the future of sustainable construction.
Durra Panel takes agricultural waste - primarily wheat straw that would otherwise be burnt, and transforms it into high-performance building panels through heat and pressure. No chemical additives, no complex manufacturing processes. It's essentially turning nature's leftovers into robust construction material that outperforms many traditional options.
The process is surprisingly straightforward, which is part of its appeal. While the construction industry often gravitates toward complex solutions, Durra Panel proves that sometimes the best innovations come from simplifying what nature already provides.
Why Durra Panel Stands Out
Traditional insulation focuses mainly on thermal properties, but Durra Panel delivers multiple benefits. The density provides exceptional acoustic performance alongside thermal efficiency. Derek shared results from rigorous testing, including full-scale bushfire tests, where panels acted like thermal fortresses, maintaining structural integrity while providing fire resistance.
Imagine standing outside a busy airport yet enjoying perfect acoustic comfort inside. That's the kind of performance Durra Panel delivers in real-world applications across Australia.
The technology originated in post-war Sweden and has been quietly proving its worth since the late 1950s. While petrochemical-based materials dominated during industrial booms, Durra Panel maintained its niche, building a track record in demanding applications like airports and bushfire-prone areas in the US.
This longevity matters. In an industry where new materials often fail after a few years, Durra Panel's decades-long performance record provides confidence for builders considering sustainable alternatives.
Getting Hands-on with the Future
Handling the panels reveals their impressive structural integrity and surprising weight. Each panel demonstrates what sustainable construction should look like - strength without complexity, performance without compromise. While many sustainable materials require trade-offs, Durra Panel matches or exceeds traditional material performance.
Derek's passion extends beyond just selling panels - he's advocating for a fundamental shift in how we approach construction materials. His team, including family members committed to carrying this forward, represents a growing community focused on genuine sustainability rather than greenwashing.
In an industry saturated with petrochemical products and complex solutions, Durra Panel offers something refreshingly simple: agricultural waste transformed into high-performance building material. The question isn't whether straw can be a serious building material - decades of proven performance answer that. The question is whether builders are ready to embrace alternatives that deliver both performance and sustainability.
For those curious about building differently, Durra Panel represents a practical step toward genuinely sustainable construction. Sometimes the best innovations come from looking backward to move forward.
If you’d like to submit a question for us to discuss on the podcast, reach out to us on Instagram.
LINKS:
Durra Panel Website: https://durrapanel.com/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Matt: Derek, let's address the elephant in the room for generations. We've been told our kids the story of the three little pigs building with straw was maybe not portrayed as a stroke of genius. yet here we are. You're a pioneer. We a product called Durra Panel. So tell us, what did the big bad wolf not understand about modern straw construction and how you provide, how were you proving him wrong?
[00:00:20] Derek: he, he, he neglected to sit back, observe nature.What do you mean by nature? Trees.
[00:00:26] the thing is, we don't think about these things very carefully, which we should. And we just tend to like not look at nature and say, well, what holds a tree up? You know, you looking at swaying in the breeze, everything else. Okay. What makes, how do trees form photosynthesis?
[00:00:43] Nature's got the greatest mechanism for removing carbon out of our atmosphere. That it's just sitting there right in front of us and we, we stop. Just need to stop and think about this and say, well, every year, 170 [00:01:00] gigatons, right of carbon, one gigatons a billion tons carbon's removed from the atmosphere.
[00:01:07] Okay? Then the power of photosynthesis. Is used by plants to build bodies. That's how we get our food, and that's carbon. And what do we get in return? Beautiful, clean air. Okay, now that's all happening. Now with photosynthesis. Of course, they wanna build a body, and there's natural polymers through the process of photosynthesis that forms Hemi Celluloses, celluloses, starch, lignin.
[00:01:33] All of these naturally occurring materials bind together as a glue.
[00:01:38] To
[00:01:39] let trees stand up and resist storms.
[00:01:42] Matt: Beautiful. It's, it's just taken me back to my science biology class days. I'm trying to remember the calculation of photos. We forget this. Yeah. It's, we learned this in year 10. Biology.
[00:01:51] Derek: Yeah.
[00:01:52] Matt: Like, and it's, we've all of a sudden gone to what, what's the statistic?
[00:01:56] We've built a, we use that much concrete in the world. We build the [00:02:00] amount of a Manhattan in New York per week is, so that's. Which is completely the opposite of what is happening here. It's crazy.
[00:02:08] Derek: But, but you look at, wheat crops, you know, and you look at them growing or rice crops, you look at food, you know, again, photosynthesis.
[00:02:16] Okay, the, these plants are feeding us, and then we get a byproduct after harvest, and that's sitting there in a, in a field now, all of that biomass. It's done all the work. It's, it's a natural drainage system for carbon in the world, right? It's a natural nature's got this all figured out. Those crops are standing there.
[00:02:35] And what are we doing at the moment globally with after harvest with things like wheat, rice, sugarcane, these types of materials. What are we do from the bin? No burning them. So then we actually creating carbon. Correct? Now this is the opportunity for the great interrupter, right? The biggest opportunity for us exists right now, and it's starting to get recognized, the biogenic [00:03:00] carbon cycle
[00:03:01] Matt: naturally
[00:03:02] Derek: occurring.
[00:03:03] Matt: So that's what your product is. You're practically turning. So what I'm understanding is you are turning waste that'd be burnt into a building material, correct? Just using basic life. You know what chemical reactions
[00:03:16] Hamish: we, we sit there and we try and think about all these new crazy, innovative ways to do stuff and like, I know my brain constantly does this and I'm sitting here listening to you and it's almost, if the answer's there, the answers are there already.
[00:03:31] Like nature's doing a really fucking
[00:03:32] Matt: well. They've kind of been there for a. Since
[00:03:34] C0035: Since before.
[00:03:35] Matt: before. Well, you think about
[00:03:36] Derek: this is, this is where we've done, you know, you think about the industrial revolution, right? Two, really 250 years ago. 250 years ago. We just, you know, okay. We invented steam engines, right? And steam engines were basically one of the big inventions by what?
[00:03:52] But the steam engine, the first one design was a pump. And the NEC necessity for that steam driven pump [00:04:00] was to remove water from coal mines. So we could brag out more coal. Well, I mean, we've been using Pete and Coal for 6,000 years for, for Burning to keep warm. Pete's used
[00:04:11] Matt: to make whiskey.
[00:04:12] Derek: Oh, yes. I don't mind a drama that actually, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:14] What do you, what's your timeline? Whiskey. It's my, I,
[00:04:18] Hamish: I love, this is so off topic. We actually talked about this on the phone the other day. Anything
[00:04:22] Matt: outta Tasmania, I love. Look, I look I a single
[00:04:25] C0035: off
[00:04:26] Matt: malt I'd rather
[00:04:26] Derek: find of
[00:04:27] Matt: a single malt, to be quite honest. There's some beautiful ones down in Tasie. I absolutely insane whiskeys some great, a lot of good things come outta Tasie, including Bob Brown.
[00:04:36] Absolute, absolutely.
[00:04:37] absolutely. Are
[00:04:38] you, are you an engineer by trade? I'm trying to look because you're, you're so charismatic. You are got such a science background sort of trying to work out
[00:04:46] Derek: I
[00:04:46] Matt: think in many respects,
[00:04:47] Derek: I've, I mean I've, I've worked with the product all my life since so.
[00:04:51] Was 24 years old, this particular product. So
[00:04:53] Matt: you designed this product? No. Okay. Like most, this actually is really interesting
[00:04:57] Derek: story actually. Yeah, it's, yeah. Like most good [00:05:00] things in life, I've had the good fortune to develop what was a good idea. Okay. And move it forward. It's like, I think this particular manufacturing process, which, which I first saw when I was 24 years old, um, quite a long time ago.
[00:05:15] Only yesterday,
[00:05:16] Matt: wasn't it?
[00:05:17] Derek: I'd like to think so, but no. But yeah. No, I was only a kid, but. I first saw the and, and I've always loved nature, but that's when I first saw it. And I worked for a public company in Australia, strate Industries. Yeah. And I went up to the manufacturing plant in Bendigo, and I saw this process for the first time when I was 24.
[00:05:35] That, well, okay, A long time ago. Very loosely compacted panel compared to what it is today. But that for me was the fire that's burned ever since. To say, how can I improve this? How can I re-engineer it, make it better? You know, I've always loved building things and making stuff. Personally. That's been a passion for me.
[00:05:57] It's all my life. And [00:06:00] to be in nature at the same time, to say, right, okay, I've been fascinated by what nature does since I was a
[00:06:06] Matt: kid. So how do we get this in more buildings then? 'cause I sit in this podcast studio and I honestly like watching it go together yesterday. I'm like understanding the building of it.
[00:06:16] And then they shut that door. Once it's all done, I'm like, whoa.
[00:06:19] Hamish: You know, before you answer that, I would love just a little bit more context of what this is and how it gets to this. 'cause now we touched on it before. It's a, it's a, it's potentially a waste product. But what is this, and I'm pointing, I'm pointing to this, a Durra panel.
[00:06:33] What is a Durra panel? Well,
[00:06:34] Derek: it's, it's basically biomass and I was talking earlier about what holds trees together and gives them, structural. Capacity, strength, you know, to withstand forces. Now is that lignin? That's it, yeah. Lignin combined with cellulose, hemi cellulose starch, these naturally occurring materials are in the biomass, which is the wheat straw, the waste material after harvest.
[00:06:59] [00:07:00] Now, those materials are unique in that when you apply heat.
[00:07:05] Dura Panel left: And
[00:07:05] Derek: I'm talking about 220 degrees C. Yeah. Quite a lot of heat and extreme pressure. We work at around about 60 tons per square inch. In the old vernacular? Yeah, across the work face of the panel. Wow. That's enormous pressure. And combined with a naturally occurring moisture content in the straw, the raw material gives up.
[00:07:27] That lignin, which helps fuse the panel core together.
[00:07:30] Matt: So it creates like a glue
[00:07:32] Derek: if if, yeah, without a,
[00:07:33] Matt: there's no glue, but there's a glue that's natural. It's like a
[00:07:35] Derek: naturally occurring polymer.
[00:07:36] Matt: Yeah.
[00:07:37] Derek: Now the beautiful thing is there's no additives at all. I mean, that's, it's a dry extrusion process. It's like it's
[00:07:44] Matt: too good to be true.
[00:07:46] Derek: Well, there's people say that and they go, oh yeah, I hear what you say, Derek, I hear what you say. Well, I say, well come up to our factory and have a look for yourself. 'cause they always say to me, what are you adding to the panel? I'm saying nothing.
[00:07:55] Matt: I, I watched them cut it. I like, there's off cuts that I was looking at and I was playing with it yesterday and I'm like trying [00:08:00] to compress it and I'm playing.
[00:08:01] And you know, when you and I, Julie spoke on a podcast where a kid for the first time and you stop and you just examine that thing. And I was looking at it just being like, my brain was sitting there going, so why isn't this everywhere?
[00:08:13] Derek: It's
[00:08:13] Matt: crazy, isn't
[00:08:13] Derek: it? Well, it sort of is, but it's been around in Australia at, at for instance, in late 1950s when that's when the technology first was introduced here, and that originally came out of Sweden.
[00:08:27] That's the first thing. It was after the second World War when building materials were in short supply. Okay. Yeah. And then people looked to what was only a, all they had that was available was natural materials. They were growing food. Here's a byproduct that they were burning the straw. Now you think about it.
[00:08:45] Straw roof. That's roof on houses. Okay. You can use straw on the outside of a house, and as we're doing with straw bales. Yeah. Which are great technology and you're rendering it. Mm. So, I mean, it's, it's, [00:09:00] it, it's been used that thinking for years, but we tend to lose sight of it because we're getting, you know, with the industrial revolution, we got told that, okay, petrochemical products are good for us.
[00:09:09] That's the way forward. Guys, you know,
[00:09:11] Matt: it's funny how it's now 3 4 60. It's natural building. Everything is natural building and I think we are just at the surface like we're here and it's just gonna go, well
[00:09:21] Derek: see the product when it first was, and I'm going back to the sixties and seventies, this product.
[00:09:26] One of the first major projects, which I think set it, set the stone, like set things in stone for the future was t Marin Airport in Melbourne. That's all covered in Durra panel and Durra steel sections.
[00:09:37] Hamish: Wow.
[00:09:37] Derek: Right. Every major airport in the country uses this material somewhere for
[00:09:43] noise control. is it being more used in a commercial setting at the moment compared to residential? historically when it first, I think I go again. I'm going back to my first time when I was around 24. all when the sand belt was being developed. Yeah. Around, you know, bow Morris, black Rock, um, [00:10:00] architects were using Durra panel because this is, this goes back before fiberglass insulation and polyester insulation.
[00:10:07] Right now. You put, it's got, this has a great insulation. Naturally occurring character to it. Yeah. So, so
[00:10:14] Hamish: just
[00:10:15] Derek: just
[00:10:15] Hamish: for clarity, so there's about 50 odd mill thick these 50, yeah. 50, yeah. And, um, it's obviously got a late nar value in it. Do you know what that is? Yes.
[00:10:22] Derek: 0.62,
[00:10:23] Hamish: zero point. But, but then the acoustics of it and the fire, because you, you fire test these,
[00:10:30] Matt: there's density.
[00:10:31] So there's density too. So everyone gets confused with density that also can improve the, it's not,
[00:10:35] Derek: well see for thermal insulation, this is where Durra panel works. See before. Fiberglass insulation was brought in. Alright. Durra panel was used, that was the ceiling. And then there was metal deck roof. The first metal deck roofs were put on and there was just a socking put over the top of the Durra panel.
[00:10:52] That was the roof ceiling system. And that was it. And you say, well, 0.62 is not a very high R value. That's 50 mil, by the way. [00:11:00] Yeah, but it's 50 mil thick panels. 50 thick. Yeah. But, but back in those days, and what's used in Europe is K values. Yes. And that's
[00:11:07] Matt: thermal conductivity. Yes. Yeah. So because you, like we think of a 90 mil wall, we double that at almost at 1.5.
[00:11:13] Yeah, yeah. Which isn't too far off. What Yeah. A standard Yeah. House would use there. It, it's, but yeah, I think when people see insulation, they,
[00:11:24] Hamish: they, so, so what, uh, in my mind, what Durra panels doing, it's, yes, there's r values in there, but it, there's more, there's more to it, the density. In it, like the, so we've just had someone open the door here in the middle of the podcast.
[00:11:37] Right. And it really demonstrated Yeah. Like how noisy it is outside, but how quiet it is inside. Yeah. So not only does it have an R value, and you're right, like we just think about R value. Oh, it's low. It's no good. Yeah. But the feeling in here is, is is hard to explain because it's insulating us thermally, but also acoustically [00:12:00] from what's happening outside.
[00:12:00] Matt: But that, but that's comfort. Everyone thinks it's comfort. Bang on this, about this all the time is only being thermal. There is. There is noise. There is vibrations. There is air quality. There is like,
[00:12:12] Dura Panel left: Um,
[00:12:12] Matt: there's one I'm missing too. There's another big one. Well, you're talking about volatile organic compact.
[00:12:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no emission air. Air quality. Air quality. Sorry. Air quality. That's the one I was missing, but that's everyone. I want insulated house. Okay, cool. But that's just not comfort. I can give you an insulated house. It might not be comfortable.
[00:12:27] Hamish: I want just, just jump back just a second. So there's a 50 mil.
[00:12:31] Um, what does that look like when it's about to go into the press? I'm assuming it's a press. Is it, is it like, is it, is it 300? It's an extrusion damage. Actually. Do, I've
[00:12:41] Derek: gotta
[00:12:41] Hamish: get you up
[00:12:41] Derek: to the factory. I amm gonna come up. We're coming. We're coming. The beautiful part is it, is that we're extruding the product.
[00:12:48] Right. As opposed to pressing it. Now, when you extrude it, we're ex, you know, it means we can cut the panel to length.
[00:12:56] Matt: So we have no waste. So you just, you're practically just running this [00:13:00] massive panel and you just cut it as you need it. Correct. So it's, yeah. Okay. That's it. Ah,
[00:13:03] Derek: okay.
[00:13:04] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. Right.
[00:13:05] Derek: And to get your head around it. A nice way to think about it, everybody sort of in their lives picked up a small bale of straw. Yes.
[00:13:12] Hamish: Yep.
[00:13:13] Derek: One of those bales will produce one square meter approximately of jpu.
[00:13:19] Hamish: Okay.
[00:13:20] Derek: So we are at 50 mil thickness. Yeah. So that's effectively what we're compressing.
[00:13:25] Dura Panel left: Yeah.
[00:13:25] Hamish: Alright. So that, that's a nice mental image of like, what's,
[00:13:30] Matt: what's in here?
[00:13:31] Can you do thicker, can you say do a 300 mil one if you wanted to, or are you limited to to heights?
[00:13:36] Derek: Well, you can, but you gotta go back to the basic premise from an engineering perspective of what we're doing. Okay. Not trying to please the hallmark. We're using such high pressure to get this to work.
[00:13:46] Yeah. We do two thicknesses, 50 and 58 millimeter thickness. Yeah. What if we go too thick?
[00:13:54] Matt: All of a sudden you can't lift it.
[00:13:55] Hamish: Yeah. It's too
[00:13:56] Matt: much weight. It's heavy. So, yeah. Okay. So you, what, where my brain was [00:14:00] going with this is like, why isn't this in say a sips panel That is, yeah. Like, and you could just double 'em up.
[00:14:06] 'cause we lifted by crane anyway. Yeah. Like why couldn't you have a hundred mil of that? And then we just as a pre application method for construction and then start whacking 'em together.
[00:14:14] Derek: People are thinking about that and you could certainly do that. Um, you could certainly make a panel. Assemble panels of this pretty much like a precast panel.
[00:14:22] Matt: Yeah.
[00:14:22] Derek: And you could do a buildup and say, right, okay. Durra panel, some, thermal insulation to satisfy the n CCC requirements for, for R values. Yeah. And um, you probably have a stress skins on the outside to give and, and depth to give a sheer face, sea force, yeah. And depth. Yeah. So you can structurally the thing will perform and be load bearing.
[00:14:41] But you could certainly do that and have an a SIP panel using Durra panel as a component within that SIP panel.
[00:14:47] Matt: Yeah, I think
[00:14:48] Derek: that's
[00:14:48] Matt: done in the next five years.
[00:14:50] Hamish: so something's happening. Something's, I mean, we've got our friends from Ster Panel here at the moment and I'm constantly chatting with Dave about the core.
[00:14:56] 'cause we use, we, we, we build a lot of SIPS projects and it's got [00:15:00] an EPS core in it.
[00:15:01] Matt: It goes back to your petrochemical thing and it bothers me. It does
[00:15:04] Derek: bother me. It, it bothers me. But also, give you a simple analogy. This fantastic Ram Earth builder, right? We've all been in Rambi homes. Yeah. We know how good they perform.
[00:15:13] Mm-hmm. Mud, brick, ram, earth. Mm-hmm. Okay. They work beautifully. What does the NCC make them do to be compliant performance solutions? No, they, no, they make them put some ty, a styrene panel in, in the core just to satisfy the R value, right? Yeah. If you ever cut styrene in a building site, you guys know what it's like.
[00:15:32] Yeah. You get micro plastics everywhere from the cutting of the star and it's just disgusting. So are they
[00:15:37] Matt: using this
[00:15:37] Derek: now?
[00:15:38] Matt: Mm-hmm. Why can't
[00:15:39] Derek: you put this in the middle? Well, you, you possibly could as a thermal break.
[00:15:44] Dura Panel left: Yeah, like why
[00:15:45] C0035: But, but
[00:15:45] Derek: It'd be better, you know, depend, people like to look externally, internally of the mud brick, but a lot of people we are finding now are looking, say with straw barrel construction and things like that.
[00:15:56] Yeah, it's great, great, great insulator, but [00:16:00] it's not like. Well engineered as a finish.
[00:16:04] Matt: It's also, and you could line
[00:16:05] Derek: this with J panel. So you have a straw bale that does your insulation say internal finish. Could be J panel walls. J panel ceilings,
[00:16:11] Matt: yeah. Can you get like a plaster face, like essentially, could you just screw this on that plasterboard too and, yep.
[00:16:17] Yeah. And you
[00:16:17] Hamish: can, you can, so, so maybe I'm, I'm pointing behind me here. So maybe just talk through this. So what's the, what's the finish that's on top of this now? Just sort of feels like paper,
[00:16:26] Derek: that's just a recycled craft paper liner. And that's around about,
[00:16:30] Matt: oh. 300 grams per square meter. So you could actually remove that and not have that on there if you wanted to.
[00:16:34] No, you need that. Is that for that? And that's giving you the, the strength to hold everything. Yeah.
[00:16:38] Derek: Because the Durra panel is, is in essence a stressed skin in its own right. Yeah. Because we've got a Durra panel core of compressed straw.
[00:16:47] Hamish: Yeah. And
[00:16:47] Derek: during a manufacturing process, we're laminating a, like the recycle craft paper liner.
[00:16:53] Onto the finished panel core, top and bottom.
[00:16:55] Matt: Yeah. Okay.
[00:16:56] Derek: So then you're getting a stressed, like a stress skin beam coming out of the [00:17:00] machine that's, you know, 1200 millimeters wide.
[00:17:02] Hamish: So if you removed that, there'd be risk of it.
[00:17:04] Dura Panel left: of it.
[00:17:05] Hamish: Yeah. Is that right? In, in
[00:17:07] Derek: manufacture? Sometimes we do just wouldn't work for you guys.
[00:17:10] Things that go wrong in manufacture, we might get a break, say a craft paper breakage. Yeah. And, and the panel literally explodes out of the mouth of the machine. Yeah. It's just straw grows everywhere. It, you don't want it happening. It,
[00:17:23] Matt: that actually be kind of fascinating to see. It's like, like confetti.
[00:17:26] Well, well you
[00:17:27] Derek: can
[00:17:27] Matt: imagine we are working at
[00:17:28] Derek: 60 tons per square inch pressure.
[00:17:30] Hamish: Wow.
[00:17:31] Derek: And it's just straw. Goes everywhere.
[00:17:33] Hamish: So, so tell me about some of the applications. Like, and, and I guess I'm, this is kind of a bit of a loaded question 'cause I kind of know this already. Yeah. So, so with linings and I, and I'm, I'm correct me if I wrong, we can use this for internal walls as well.
[00:17:45] Like we
[00:17:45] Derek: internal walls and external walls and I mean, there's been, certainly with COVID times, there's been a, a, a, I think a big growth industry has been in steel frame constructions. Mm-hmm. Which I, which I think is a great thing. This is where you get elements like steel frame [00:18:00] construction.
[00:18:01] Dura Panel left: Big.
[00:18:01] Derek: The big problem there is thermal conductivity.
[00:18:03] Yeah. You know, you've gotta stop
[00:18:06] Dura Panel left: Energy,
[00:18:07] Derek: energy, heat, energy going through, because I'm talking to your team yesterday about how
[00:18:11] Matt: do we prevent
[00:18:11] Derek: this. So you just put J panel and this is what people have been doing. There's a big project called C Street, which was highly successful with, with with kin. That's it.
[00:18:19] Yeah. That's a great to get them on outside and. The thermal conductivity of this. Again, we're talking about K values. Now this is what should be considered, and it's not considered by the NCC currently. Hopefully they, it will be
[00:18:33] Matt: NCC is crap. The fact we have a national construction code at every single state, it's different.
[00:18:39] It's, it's not national then
[00:18:40] Derek: They don't Yeah. Yeah. As long. Okay. Tick box, uh, point, you know, this tick box for R values, but this has a, like a K value, like a 0.081 watts per meter. K and, and. When you see a fire demonstration, if we put, you know, like 3000 plus degrees of Celine on the panel, nothing [00:19:00] happens.
[00:19:00] You can hold your hand on the other side of that panel testing. You don't feel any heat for, like,
[00:19:04] Matt: you don't feel any heat at all. You did testing with RMIT, and didn't you do this for like three hours and then the difference in the size was only 50 degrees that, something like that? Yeah,
[00:19:12] Derek: it's, well, we did full scale bushfire, testing on the product with CSIO and Mogo on, on a complete Durra panel.
[00:19:20] A box for housing and, and building in bushfire areas.
[00:19:24] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:19:25] Derek: And the product passed that test? Yep. Wow. Now that's huge. And, and over the, I think it was after an hour, the temperature from the inside to the outside, the temperature inside only went up. I think it was something like three or four degrees C.
[00:19:41] Matt: Wow.
[00:19:42] Derek: And that's for the duration, which it's pretty much placed
[00:19:44] Matt: in an oven.
[00:19:45] Derek: It's, it, it is placed in a fire. If you look at that,
[00:19:47] Dura Panel left: look at that, it, it's high enough
[00:19:48] Derek: it's testing. Yeah, it's actually propane torches all around the building and, and the building gets totally immersed in fire, like a proper fire frame. Was this, was this
[00:19:57] Hamish: post post, the 2019 [00:20:00] 2020 Bush fires?
[00:20:01] Derek: this test was done last year. Yeah, I
[00:20:03] Hamish: think I remember seeing it on social media. So why maybe Yoss yos. Yeah. Yo. Yeah. So
[00:20:07] Matt: what, so what, because I, you go back to this, like I did question your team yesterday when they're putting like, how do we
[00:20:12] Hamish: eliminate
[00:20:12] Matt: like the metal now if we're gonna try to use it externally and so we don't have the thermal bridging.
[00:20:17] Dura Panel left: Well, you,
[00:20:18] Matt: No, you just get rid of that and you
[00:20:19] Derek: just put biscuit connectors in there, so, and screw your frame and screw it back. That's it.
[00:20:24] Dura Panel left: Yeah,
[00:20:25] C0035: so
[00:20:25] Derek: That's all you need to do. So
[00:20:26] Hamish: after, after having Derek on, the SBA webinar one day, my brain was going wild. And I, that's what my brain is doing right now. Immediately thought about Cam, went back to Cam, I asked Cam whether or not we can use this externally and put a line render on it.
[00:20:41] And I think we chatted about it on the time. Absolutely. And I was like, it's a possibility. I think look, and, and I'll, I'll be the devil's advocate here. I feel you'd want to keep it dry. Yeah. You've gotta, yeah. You've gotta keep it dry. Gotta keep it dry. Yeah. That's, that's a
[00:20:54] Derek: big thing. I mean, you could get this building as you is now and you can hose all this down.
[00:20:58] Yeah, right. And let it [00:21:00] dry out.
[00:21:00] Matt: But that's basic. This is where I think building goes wrong. You can get something wet as long as drying, exceeds, wetting. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:21:06] Derek: It's gotta be lettuce dry. Exactly. Exactly right guys. It's, um.
[00:21:10] Matt: We don't want common sense like it, it's back to what we got. Literally the first bit of conversation.
[00:21:15] It's back to natural building.
[00:21:17] Derek: Well, we were in, we were in America, November last year, and after those bushfires went through, we've been specified in a special accommodation unit for people that have lost their homes
[00:21:31] Dura Panel left: Yeah.
[00:21:32] Derek: in, and this is in Ojai in California, which is where it ripped through there. Yeah.
[00:21:36] In the Palisades and everything else. Yeah. Yeah, so a Durra panel is getting used, it's like a 30 room accommodation.
[00:21:44] Hamish: Wow.
[00:21:45] Derek: structure, single, single story.
[00:21:47] C0035: Yeah.
[00:21:48] Dura Panel left: And
[00:21:49] Derek: the Durra panel is gonna be used. All the walls, all the ceilings, basically as per the, that Yost test that we did up in, Mogo for C-S-I-R-O.
[00:21:58] And they've used that test to [00:22:00] look at it and look at the fire performance and on the outside of that building to get back to your thought. How do you weatherproof it? They're putting like a plaster render on the outside of that sort
[00:22:09] Matt: of like a line they've used line base, like a line, line based render product they've used.
[00:22:13] Yeah.
[00:22:13] Derek: Straight over the outside. And, and that's gonna
[00:22:15] Matt: be the
[00:22:16] Derek: finish of that
[00:22:16] Matt: building. So this is also an Australian made product too. Am I right? Yeah, a hundred percent,
[00:22:21] Hamish: yeah. And where are you, you're up in, in Bendigo, Victoria, Bendigo. And, and did, did I read somewhere? So this is a, this is a waste product.
[00:22:28] And did I read somewhere that you, you had like a radius of where your. Yeah. Getting your material from, and I know as you, as you, you know, you've got big orders and stuff coming through, it's hard to then sort of facilitate the amount of product that you'd need. But your philosophy is that you're trying to get it within a certain radius of the Yeah,
[00:22:46] Derek: well, you, you know, I mean, we, we wanna be minimizing the amount of emissions that are associated with anything to do with our panel.
[00:22:54] Yeah. So the manufacturing center is located in the middle of the wheat belt. Yeah. In Victoria? Yeah. [00:23:00] So all of our raw material comes with in 60 kilometers of our factory. Wow. And that factory's been there since 1960. Wow.
[00:23:07] C0035: Wow.
[00:23:07] Derek: And a beautiful thing with this is that, I mean, farmers are looking for a way to get rid of the material that we use.
[00:23:16] So the farmers are getting extra money.
[00:23:19] Dura Panel left: So
[00:23:20] Derek: you are, so
[00:23:20] Hamish: you are buying it off them? We are, yeah. We're buying it from the farmers
[00:23:23] Derek: and from the straw contractors because straw farmers might do a deal with the big straw con contractors with the big equipment and just they get X dollars per paddock
[00:23:32] Hamish: of straw.
[00:23:32] And, and this is straw. So can we use, can it be other biomass material or straw? The
[00:23:40] Derek: like could be hemp. No, hemp. See, hemp doesn't have the. Correct makeup of and ratios of lignin, hemi cellulose, cellulose starch to do that job.
[00:23:55] Hamish: To, to, to do, to do what this is doing. Yeah. Correct. But he But
[00:23:58] Derek: hemp can do hemp.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Hemp is if you mix the hemp with a binding agent. Yeah. Fantastic. Then you, then you can build like yo's doing at the moment. Then you can build furniture, beautiful furniture and things like that. There's a big school that's been done all uh, Durra panel. All hemp furniture and things like that internally.
[00:24:16] I actually had
[00:24:16] Hamish: the privilege of seeing some of that product at, Jeremy's, Jeremy McLeod's, breathe office in Melbourne, and it's, they've got a desk there and it's beautiful. Yeah, like it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Why isn't
[00:24:29] Derek: this everywhere? Why would you be chopping down trees? This is what, this is my argument.
[00:24:33] Why, why are we chopping down trees for paper manufacturing? Yeah. Why, why aren't we using biomass? And we can what on this? And then we're burning it. Yeah. Yeah. Like and releasing the carbon. Yeah. So, so we're destroying nature's, nature's got the machine going and
[00:24:47] Hamish: we we're going in, we're just fucking
[00:24:48] Matt: everything up.
[00:24:49] Hamish: Okay. So, so, so it, so there needs to be a, a particular. Compound within that, s bio structure, if that's the word, o of the material. It's like a, a molecular
[00:24:59] Derek: [00:25:00] structure of the material itself. Of the material, yeah. Itself. Yeah. Okay. And, and, and with the hemp, and we've looked at the, he look at trying to do it with the hemp and it just won't work.
[00:25:08] We have to add chemicals. Is that the same as
[00:25:11] Matt: corn? Would corn be the same? Corn? Yeah.
[00:25:14] Derek: Corn. Corn is the same. sugar cane. We've tried, using sugar cane. The best materials that we've found are rice, rice crops. Okay. And, and you know, we make, like we make the machines that make the panel and, which I don't want to digress, but it's an interesting thing that after the Boxing Day tsunami went through and, Sri Lanka got devastated.
[00:25:34] Yeah. We licensed our manufacturing technology to the major construction firm in, in Sri Lanka. Yeah. It's ICC, international Construction Consortium. And we transferred the technology in the, and made them a machine,
[00:25:49] C0035: Provided
[00:25:50] Derek: all the training. All the resources and after the Boxing Day tsunami, all their rice crops were used rather than being burned.[00:26:00]
[00:26:00] C0035: Wow.
[00:26:00] Derek: Got taken to the factory manufactured J panel and then rebuilt the houses. The farmers doubled their income. So think of the social benefits after that. Devastating tsunami.
[00:26:12] Dura Panel left: Okay.
[00:26:13] Derek: Okay. This is back in what, 2006 I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:17] Dura Panel left: And that the factory's
[00:26:18] Derek: The factory's still going today. That's years ago.
[00:26:19] Matt: Yeah, 20 years ago. So what, what always blows my mind with stuff like this is like, this is not something that's come out post COVID.
[00:26:27] Had time to think we've got an extra bit of money and invested and just blow it up. It's just something that's been happening for a while. It's
[00:26:33] Derek: it's like it was a product from the future here in Australia,
[00:26:37] Dura Panel left: and
[00:26:37] Derek: then we've seen so much indoctrination and so much greenwashing and everything else associated with petrochemical materials.
[00:26:45] Whereas this thing's just been sitting there quietly and Okay, all of a sudden now it's, it, it's very, very relevant.
[00:26:52] Hamish: And, and so, so this is probably an interesting little segue. So are you finding, obviously J panel's been around for a long time. Are you finding [00:27:00] there's a much bigger social pickup of it today?
[00:27:02] Like are we ready for products like this to be much more relevant in the market? More, more and more in the market? Yeah, more
[00:27:09] Derek: and more. I mean, that school that, was built at Woodley. Woodley,
[00:27:12] all the barriers went away with that school. Right? Yeah. It had a great architect
[00:27:17] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:27:18] Derek: That embraced the materials.
[00:27:20] Hamish: Yeah. Okay.
[00:27:20] Derek: Embraced them. Yeah. The school embraced the materials because they wanted the outcome. They wanted to demonstrate, well, this is the future. Yeah. This is what we've gotta do. Yeah. This is we, we've gotta use these sorts of materials. That project was a win, win, win for everybody, including the fact this is the only time in my, my history.
[00:27:41] I've ever known a builder give the client money back because he saved money on the build. Okay. Over what he thought it was gonna cost him. He thought it was gonna be this, and it came in less and he returned money to the school.
[00:27:55] Hamish: Wow. And Yost was involved in that project, wasn't he? Yeah. [00:28:00] So, so, and I don't wanna digress too much with Yost, and I've always, I've been a really big fan of Yost for a long time because I feel.
[00:28:08] Now I don't agree with everything that he says. Right. But I think that's okay. He's pushing the boundaries of what we think about a building should be. Yep. And I know we've had some conversations in a, in a group chat about Yes before. And I really genuinely hope we can get on here. I love him 'cause he pushes the boundaries.
[00:28:26] 'cause he actually makes you think outside the little bubble that you operate within. We think about this, we, we operate in this building physics thing. He champions still frames. We're like, we don't want seal frames. Yep. Heat champions alternative building methodologies. We kind of, I think we do
[00:28:41] Matt: too, though.
[00:28:42] Hamish: We, we do, but I feel like, you know, it, it takes a flower farmer to think differently. In this industry that we're in, and we need that to create change. Well, they always say
[00:28:56] Matt: people coming in from other industries always question why the industry's done a certain way. You
[00:28:59] Hamish: [00:29:00] shake it up.
[00:29:00] Matt: So like, 'cause like we're, we're doing our house and Nicole coming in, she's in marketing, my wife, and then coming into the building industry to like build a house and she's around my building business anyway.
[00:29:08] She's like, why is this done this way? Why is this done this way? Yeah. And you're like, oh, I never thought about that. Like, why does that take so long? And you're like, yeah, that's just. Yeah. And that's where it goes back to the conversation around,
[00:29:18] Dura Panel left: like
[00:29:18] Matt: with you guys is like just, I just, I've just got why, why, why?
[00:29:22] Hamish: It's a nice, and it's a nice circle back to the fact that this has been a product since the sixties and it's still here, it's still relevant, becoming more relevant now. And we've tried to solve all these problems that we potentially, we've created ourselves and the answers here, well, I think
[00:29:38] Derek: we just
[00:29:39] Hamish: need
[00:29:39] Derek: to look at it.
[00:29:39] And architects need to, I think, have more of an approach like those that the Woodley School had.
[00:29:44] Dura Panel left: had
[00:29:45] Derek: And so it said, well, okay, it might not be the perfect color that they want, or it might not be the perfect finish that they an architect wants, but hey, this is a perfect material that we need. That's okay.
[00:29:58] What's,
[00:29:59] Hamish: what is that, what's that [00:30:00] Japanese saying? And I, I, it, it is what it is. It is what it is. It is what it is. There's actually a saying and I was chatting with, someone about it yesterday, the Japanese. Have this, these amazing buildings which have been there for hundreds of years, some hemp, some charred timber, and they're embracing the imperfection of that building material.
[00:30:19] Derek: Yep.
[00:30:20] Hamish: And they have a saying. It is, it just is what it is.
[00:30:23] Derek: I couldn't put that better myself ish. Yeah. I mean, it is perfect. I mean, this, this product was, we, we worked closely with RMIT for, with testing for, for years and recently, one of their researchers at wanted to do fire testing on Durra panel, and the fire testing went so well on this Durra panel, and this was bushfire research
[00:30:45] Dura Panel left: and
[00:30:45] Derek: he wanted to do more work on it.
[00:30:48] So he said, can I do a study or work with you just to produce a study on Durra panel? It's been around for so long. He said, like, we're talking about now, it's been there for so many years. Why, why haven't we embraced it? And [00:31:00] there is a thing people say, it won't last. Like the three little pigs, they go, it's not gonna last.
[00:31:05] So what he did was he said, do you know an old building that I can pull some panel out of? I said, yeah, yeah, we can do that. Anyway, in our factory, we've got Durra panel that's over 50 years old, over half a century old, so we pulled the panel out. He took it back and tested it, did all the comparison testings with product that we make today.
[00:31:25] Now, the product we made today is stiffer and stronger. But the product that was over half a century old had lost none of its mechanical properties over that half a century of real world use and aging. Now that says it all to me.
[00:31:42] Matt: We need to wrap this up. I've gotta get on stage to do a moderator panel in five minutes, but I've got man, many tell us.
[00:31:51] I know. I've got one question that I want to finish on here though.
[00:31:54] Dura Panel left: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:55] Matt: Is, why are you so passionate about this? Wouldn't it just be easy just to not care?
[00:31:59] Derek: [00:32:00] I know it's right. I guess that's abuse thing. I mean, I, I've invested myself in nature since I was I a kid.
[00:32:10] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:32:10] Derek: I've always liked being in nature and that's my place personally. I'm always happy. I was happiest being in the surf, sitting out there. Before the sun came up. Mm. You know, I don't care if I was on my own or with my mate or whatever, but that was my happy place.
[00:32:25] It's always been happy being out in nature with nothing just in the bush and just observing what's around me and, and never do I fail to be absolutely amazed at what nature can do if you give it time and if you look at it and work with it rather than work against it, which is what we tend to do. I mean, we tend to.
[00:32:47] Lock ourself up in boxes and think, well, we're just trying to remove ourself more and more from nature. And I personally look at what the houses that we are living in now going, they're full of VOCs. You look at all of these [00:33:00] diseases and I, when I grew up, we never had all these A Ds
[00:33:03] Dura Panel left: a h, adhd
[00:33:04] Derek: Ds allergies and I think it's, we're a product of our environment rather than closing our windows and our doors and, you know, putting on the air conditioner.
[00:33:13] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:33:14] Derek: Going, Hey mate, look, just open them. Bring nature in,
[00:33:17] Matt: but I think it's coming back. Biophilic design, that's the word. Well, biophilia half has
[00:33:21] Hamish: to, it's, and I think that's a really, beautiful way of answering that question. I think it's a great place to finish it. Like just embrace nature.
[00:33:29] Derek: Well, I, I, I think it's embraced nature and to me, I feel like, you know, I've had a stewardship almost positioned to look after this technology now, and I've got all you guys, your young crew that are coming around it.
[00:33:41] And, and a young crew at our place, you know, and I'll probably be, you know, working life another five years or so, but. There's a passionate group of people that I've got, I'm so fortunate to have them working with me,
[00:33:52] Hamish: you know? And your family's in the business. Yeah. Yeah. I've got family in the business as well, son.
[00:33:56] Dura Panel left: Your son?
[00:33:57] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. He's been with me now for,
[00:33:59] Derek: in the [00:34:00] business for almost, gee, 15
[00:34:01] Hamish: years. No, look, I would love that passion to continue because like, I
[00:34:06] Matt: think it will, I don't think, you know, you'd love, I can see it's happening. I can just see that it's happening. Like, I don't think there's any, like, I hope.
[00:34:12] I, I, I'm pretty confident it will.
[00:34:14] Hamish: Yeah. Amazing. Look, thank you one for letting us do this in this
[00:34:18] Matt: this is awesome
[00:34:19] Hamish: space. And to even have you here, you know, in front of the Durra panel talking about the product. And I feel, We're gonna see a lot more
[00:34:26] Derek: in these, in our projects. Look mate, I thank you for the opportunity guys, and I mean, you guys are the future.
[00:34:31] Yeah. We know we are. You know, and we've all got a responsibility Yeah. To, to, to look after our planet. So. Amazing. Well, let's spread the word. Thank you Derek. Thank you very much.