Systems makes business run better
"I decided not to be the 'too busy' dad who missed seeing his kids grow up."
That was the wake-up call for David Jenyns, founder of Systemology. For too long, he was trapped working 60+ hours a week in the business he built which is a common fate for many successful entrepreneurs. If your business cannot function for a week without you, you're not a business owner; you're an employee of a business you own.
We recently sat down with systems expert Dave Jenyns to understand how entrepreneurs can transform struggle into structured, scalable success. The truth is, if you're stuck in the day-to-day grind, your business owns you.
The Cost of Chaos
Dave's journey began not with a grand strategic plan, but with a deep, personal pain point: the realisation that a profitable business demanding key-person dependency is a prison of your own making. This fueled his mission to find a system that could replace him within his own operation, ultimately freeing all business owners.
The result was SYSTEMology®, a proven, proprietary 7-step process designed to move your business from owner-dependent chaos to one that runs with precision and fewer headaches.
Clarity Beats Excuses: Why You’re the Worst System Builder
"I didn't know how to do it.”
“I didn’t think that was my responsibility.”
We’ve all heard these excuses from our staff at one point or another, and ultimately it’s not a failure of theirs. Most likely it’s a failure of the processes that have been laid out (or lack thereof).
By implementing thorough Smart Operating Procedures (SOPs); using videos and checklists, you ensure that every team member knows exactly what's expected.
Crucially, Dave’s experience proves that the business owner is often the worst person to document the systems because they can always 'do it better themselves' and become the biggest bottleneck.
The solution isn't doing more work yourself; it's extracting the knowledge from your best-performing team members and turning their expertise into a repeatable asset.
The Systems Champion
Dave made it clear that you cannot scale chaos. Systems provide the structured framework that supports predictable, repeatable growth.
This is where the Systems Champion comes in. This dedicated team member is the key to eliminating key-person dependency. They are tasked with leading the extraction, organisation, and integration of systems, allowing the owner to step out of the daily operations and focus on strategic growth.
Reflecting on our own commitment to Passive House principles, we realise a systematic approach is crucial. You must evolve from being an employee of a business you own to a true business owner.
Ultimately, systematisation isn't just a business strategy; it's a commitment to personal freedom. You started your entrepreneurial journey to gain autonomy, not to become a prisoner to 60-hour weeks and constant crisis management. By implementing the insights of SYSTEMology and enlisting your Systems Champion, you gain the ability to step away, allowing your business to perform with consistency and precision.
If you’d like to submit a question for us to discuss on the podcast, reach out to us on Instagram.
LINKS:
Dave’s Website:
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:00:00] Hamish: I've had a parasocial relationship with you, Dave, for probably two years now. So it's finally really great to meet you in person. I attended the system and AI champion. summit. Summit yesterday. And, uh, I must admit, I am so engaged with systems again in my business.
[00:00:19] Hamish: It's kind of been this thing that I've been working on for the past 12 months, but now, you know, understanding how AI can help and, um, really seeing, you know, from the guests yesterday, like how a systemized business is so much more valuable. Um, I thought having you on. To tell our audience, your journey in systemization, um, would be, uh, a really great benefit for our listeners.
[00:00:45] Hamish: So thanks for coming on. Yeah, looking forward to it. Love talking systems. Love talking AI and building. And you know what, Matt's uh, Matt's also a bit of an AI nerd as well. It's gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with it. It let's, let's go down a rabbit hole.
[00:00:58] Matt: Yeah. So I'm gonna [00:01:00] start with this. So. Systems. It sort of often said that systems are created twice, first in the document and second in the minds of the team.
[00:01:07] Matt: And the biggest hurdle sort of isn't documentation. It's actually implementation and adoption by those around you. Um, many business owners struggle with like that goldilock zone, creating a system that's detailed enough to be useful, but not so detailed that it becomes sort of a document that no one uses.
[00:01:21] Matt: How do business leaders navigate that tricky balance? And maybe more specifically, how can they start to slow and introduce that, like introduce that slowly and that, that create that change in sustainable long-term view rather than push for like a complete overhaul overnight and just be like full guns blazing.
[00:01:39] Dave: Yeah. I think business, your. Constantly solving problems. Yeah, and it's different problems for different stages. So it depends on where you're at in your systemization journey. If you haven't really thought about systems before and you don't really have much process in place, well you just gotta get started.
[00:01:58] Dave: That's me right now. Pick some. [00:02:00] Yeah, you just gotta pick some systems. You gotta start documenting 'em. Some you're gonna make too detailed. Some you're gonna have too short. Some are gonna get used, some aren't gonna get used. And you just kinda learn a little bit as you go. We've got some guardrails to try and help you to focus on at least the 20% of the systems that are gonna have the biggest impact.
[00:02:20] Dave: So you can narrow your focus a little bit. Step one though is, we need to remove the excuse that team members can say, but I didn't know. I mean, that's the get outta jail free card for any team member. I didn't know how to do that thing. You didn't tell me that, you know, once we finished with the equipment, we needed to clean it and put it away and have it ready for the next job.
[00:02:45] Dave: It's common sense, isn't it though? Yeah. Common sense, not so common. So step number one is getting that as an excuse off the plate, which comes from capturing best practice, documenting, making sure that [00:03:00] it's easy to get to the process when you need it in the moment. So a big part of getting adoption is, is removing the chance for excuses, like, like cancers
[00:03:12] Matt: within the business.
[00:03:13] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Another big one that pops up, uh, is I didn't know it was expected of me. So firstly it's, I didn't know how to do it, and then it's, well, I didn't really know that I had to do it. It was my job, or it had to be done on this day, or. Maybe you passed a task to a team member and it was set off the cuff in a meeting, and then you follow them up in three weeks and go, oh, how did you go with that thing?
[00:03:39] Dave: And they kind of forgot about it because it wasn't clear to everybody on the team who was doing what by when. So if you can get that clarity how something is done, who's doing it by when we just start to remove excuses. That's a big part of where you want to get started [00:04:00] because then Oh, I didn't know how Well we have a documented SOP that does you how to do it.
[00:04:06] Dave: Oh, but I didn't know it needed to be done by Friday. 'cause the client needed it then. Well, it's in our project management software and it says that this is the due date. Everybody on the team can see that it was due at Friday at 5:00 PM now they can't use those excuses. And we're narrowing what the excuses that they can use are.
[00:04:26] Dave: Um, and this has to do with work, working with the existing team. Um, we can kind of explore a little bit about hiring people That'll. Follow process that that's the shortcut before you got a question. Hamish, SOP, can you, what is that? Just stands for? Standard Operating Procedure. I use a bunch of terms interchangeably.
[00:04:45] Dave: Systems Process. SOP, standard Operating Procedure Workflow. The way I think about it, 'cause I just simplify the language. It's a series of these steps that create a consistent outcome. [00:05:00] So it's. Uh, that's what I think of an SOP as. It's just like a little recipe that creates a consistent outcome on your business is, is made up of a collection of these recipes.
[00:05:10] Hamish: Yep. I, I love the simplicity in that, you know, a series of steps to get a consistent outcome that's really important in any business. I just wanna circle back just a little bit. Um, how did you get here? Like, why are you sitting here right now? Talking on a podcast. You know, you, you had a, you had a summit yesterday, like how did you get here?
[00:05:29] Dave: My dad was a systems engineer. Okay, well there we go. Alright, next. So maybe it's Next Host podcast Unfinished. So wrap that one up. Yep. But I, I learned early on that some people are systems people and some people aren't. My dad created a thing called The Sheet for my brother and I I love this story.
[00:05:49] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. I love this story. And he's, he gamified life for Chris and I, I remember being eight years old and I could earn pocket money for doing different [00:06:00] activities around the house, cleaning my room, putting the dirty laundry away, unstacking the dishwasher, all that sort of stuff. I, I'd earn points at the end of the week, we'd tally up all the points and I'd get pocket money and.
[00:06:12] Dave: He even like, he was pretty fancy. He was a systems engineer, so he had these, a fancy scoring legend that meant if I got. Five weeks above 300 points, I get a bonus payout. And I used to absolutely dominate with the sheet. I got to a point where dad says, I'm gonna have to change the rules 'cause you're gonna bleed me dry.
[00:06:32] Dave: And that was me. I loved the sheet. But then there was, my brother Chris, didn't like the sheet, hated the sheet, didn't get involved with the sheet, and he never got the pocket money. And it made me realize, looking back now, that there are two types of people, some people who. Embrace systems and processes and those that don't in your family, you don't get to choose who they are.
[00:06:55] Dave: They are who they are. But in business you do get to choose your staff [00:07:00] and you get to be very particular. But a lot of. Business owners don't think about this on the way in. They, you need to be hiring for people who fit into your culture and your way of doing things. So you get clear on what your way is.
[00:07:14] Dave: Yeah. And then we recruit people who will fit into the culture. Because
[00:07:17] Hamish: I remember there's, uh, I dunno if anyone's listened to the book book's called Systemology, um, on, Spotify. Yep. I listen on Spotify. Uh, the, the books are really easy to read as well and really relevant no matter what business you are and.
[00:07:30] Hamish: I know you talk about when you're hiring new people, like hire for systems people tell them we are a systems orientated business. Yeah, systems focused business. Are you a systems focused person? Uh, I know this is one of the questions I asked my VA when I hired her. You know, we are a systems focused business.
[00:07:46] Hamish: We're at the very beginning of our journey. I want someone who's on board with that. But you've, you've owned a couple of businesses before. Yep. And you know, you've, you've had businesses that maybe weren't. You know, completely systemized and then realized you had an [00:08:00] aha, aha moment when you had your first child.
[00:08:02] Hamish: Yep. Do you wanna tell us a little about that journey, about owning businesses that were systemized and not systemized? Yeah, and like, I guess how you've then come to the point of writing a book and having this whole program.
[00:08:14] Dave: I, like many business owners probably listening to this, have been involved in many different businesses along the way, and some have been more systemized than others.
[00:08:26] Dave: Initially it was in the stock market education space and we wrote trading plans, which is you would predefine a set of rules that you would follow when you traded the stock market. So I almost look back now. That was a system. And then we had a rock and roll clothing music store called Planet 13 that sold a CDC and Metallica t-shirts.
[00:08:48] Dave: We set that up as a franchise and we franchised a few stores, so that was a system we sold effectively, a franchisor manual. That's how we got paid.
[00:08:58] Hamish: Like a paper, paper manual, like [00:09:00] a back in the day it was paper. Yeah, paper manual. Yeah. We printed it out because I do, I do want to get to how things are happening now, so that's just, remember the paper manual, everyone?
[00:09:09] Dave: Mm-hmm. That's where I got started, and then I got into the digital agency business as one of the businesses, and for some reason. That business bamboozled me for a few years there. 'cause I thought this business is different like marketing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was helping small businesses get found online.
[00:09:29] Dave: We would do it through SEO. Yeah. Little bit of, uh, AdWords. What year was this? The agency was launched in 99. So pre-social media? Yeah, pre-social media. Yeah. Super early days. Internet marketing.
[00:09:46] Matt: Uh, no one kind of knew what the internet was then. No. Yep. It was the heyday of online marketing, which is kind of relevant to where we are in today's world, really.
[00:09:55] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And
[00:09:56] Hamish: probably something we're gonna touch on later with
[00:09:58] Dave: ai. Yeah. We're about to move [00:10:00] into a new heyday. Yep. And for that business, it changed a lot. So I thought, oh, can't really be systemized. Like a new Google update was happening here. A new way of doing things was launched a different website.
[00:10:15] Dave: I was the one learning all of the stuff. I thought I had all of the magic. I was making YouTube videos, so clients were coming and asking for me. I was helping to solve the problems and I, I felt like I was the nighting shining armor. Whenever something went wrong, the team would come to me, clients would come to me, and then I just built effectively like a little prison for myself.
[00:10:36] Dave: It's not very scalable, is it? No. No. And I should know better. Yeah. Hey, I've got a systems engineer as a dad. Yeah. Yeah. Then we found out we were pregnant and I was like, ah, I don't wanna be that dad who's too busy. And that, that was the turning point for me to go, well, I know systems are the answer. I, and I see people doing agencies around me that run without them.
[00:10:56] Dave: I know it's possible. I know you can't build a scalable business [00:11:00] without process. So then it got me to rethink and question a lot of my assumptions.
[00:11:06] Hamish: If, if anyone's struggling to think of a business that. Is a completely systemized business. I'd almost say a hundred percent of our listeners have been to McDonald's before.
[00:11:17] Hamish: Yeah. And that probably is the epitome of a systemized business. Yeah. You go to McDonald's in Kui Ru here, or if you go in Auckland and New Zealand or Tokyo and Japan, like the food might be slightly different, but the process and systems of you ordering and getting your food is exactly the same.
[00:11:34] Dave: Yeah.
[00:11:35] Dave: And. That oftentimes is the first business that comes to mind for a lot of business owners. When you think of a systemized business, for better or worse, there's a huge amount that can be learned from McDonald's because they are the greatest small business in the world, as in they started off small. Yep.
[00:11:53] Dave: And then each store, it's
[00:11:54] Matt: a great movie on that founder. Love that. How it had to be the homework. It's actually a great movie. Um, it's been [00:12:00] many. Listen, who's an actor? He was Batman. Okay. Uh, Michael, Michael, Mike King, Michael. Brilliant. It's actually really, I've, because I've been meaning, it's a bit of an interesting, like I didn't realize how much he kind of, without giving him much away, but how he kind of took over wasn't his idea.
[00:12:14] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Well he,
[00:12:15] Dave: he, he bought it from the McDonald's brothers. Yeah, yeah. They tried to systemize and scale it and they couldn't, and then he said, nah, I think there's something here.
[00:12:24] Matt: Yeah. Which is, which is sort of a good question here, because like. you said before that like some people are system based the way they think and some people aren't.
[00:12:30] Matt: I'm not, I like, I've always kind of done what I want to do and I'm the barrier for the system because it's shiny, get it all done, get it all sorted to get that free time. 'cause I'm now a dad, but I'm the person that's gonna be the guy that goes, ah, I'm just gonna do it my way. Yeah. Do,
[00:12:45] Hamish: do you know what's really interesting about that?
[00:12:46] Hamish: And so obviously Matt and I have the podcast together, so it's a business, um. And I think mine and Matt's brain work very similarly, right? So we're very, we are the big picture thinkers. We're shiny fucking classic A DHD trying to, [00:13:00] you know, chase the shiny object thing. I'm probably 12 months ahead of Matt in terms of like my realization how important systems are and when we're dealing with stuff to do with the mindful builder.
[00:13:12] Hamish: I see some of the things that Matt does and I see the things that I do now and I'm like, oh Matt, you need to like, remove yourself from that 'cause you are being the biggest barrier in that thing that we're trying to get Jann to do right now. Oh,
[00:13:24] Matt: I'm, I'm, I suck at handing over tasks and I, if I, once I have to hand over, I do not wanna know that anymore.
[00:13:30] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:31] Matt: That's me. Like I, and I, I'm also one of those people, I don't like handing over something until I know it so I can have a very detailed conversation about you with it. So I understand what we're talking about. Yeah.
[00:13:41] Hamish: If only there's a way to do that. Yeah. But, but,
[00:13:44] Matt: so, but this is, again, this is my, I love ai, but the issue with AI is you can, just because you can type in the prompts and ask the questions doesn't mean you retain the information.
[00:13:52] Matt: And it's a tool to assist you to get somewhere. It's a, it's a research tool, but you've gotta be able to retain what you're learning. It's like anything you need [00:14:00] to, back in the day, you need to write an essay on, uh. Pathophysiology or whatever when I did a science degree. You have to actually open the book, write it, structure it.
[00:14:07] Matt: AI is just a shortcut to get the information now
[00:14:09] Hamish: before we get down the AI path. 'cause we, we will get to it. Um, so you've a bunch of businesses bought and sold, you know, had kids, um, and then realized, hang on a minute, I really like froth this system stuff. Yeah. You know, how can I help other businesses?
[00:14:24] Hamish: Because I mean, you've so beautifully explained it today that your passion is like helping other businesses like find time. Yeah. Get freedom. Yeah, so, so how does system Hub, and I guess this framework around Systemology and your systemologies, how does that help business owners regardless of what business you are?
[00:14:43] Hamish: Get that freedom and time.
[00:14:44] Dave: It helps businesses create re repeatability. I don't, I don't think I've, I'm not. Magical. I don't shoot lasers out my eyes. I don't fly. I don't, I don't think I'm that special. Uh, I feel like though I've just [00:15:00] uncovered the best kept secret in business. I feel like systems and processes are the foundational building blocks, and I feel like it is the master skill to capture best practice, make it repeatable and pass it on.
[00:15:17] Dave: Yeah. A lot of builders, they. Start their business being on the tools. They know how to do the work. They build a business around them being the on the tools, and then doing the work. And then the business is successful because they're so great on the tools, which means that helps them grow the business to a certain size, but then it also becomes the trap, and then they become a prisoner in their business where they're not making money unless they're working and.
[00:15:48] Dave: That's the little secret to kind of break through with systems and processes. It's capturing what you're doing, making sure that you pass it on. I, I think a lot of business owners, they love the idea of team [00:16:00] members. Stepping up and taking over and doing it. But they just want things, especially builders, they're often, many of them are perfectionists.
[00:16:07] Dave: They want things done to a certain standard and that makes it very hard to let go.
[00:16:10] Hamish: Do you know, you, you asked, well, like we, we had a bit of a session before this recording, so, and I think you asked, uh, the group, um, what you think the barriers are and I think, I think I know what it is. , I think people's like image of systems is boring.
[00:16:24] Hamish: Mm. Like I've just, it's like
[00:16:25] Matt: safety. It's not sexy.
[00:16:26] Hamish: Yeah. I've literally just wr written, what you guys have been able to do is make system sexy. Mm-hmm. Because the simplicity around how you put it into system hub, and I might get you to explain that in a second. It is easy, like it's not a bunch of, like, it's not a fucking flow chart with like little squares with words in it pointing to the next thing.
[00:16:45] Hamish: Like that's, yes, that's a system, but. That's fucking boring. Yeah. Like what you guys have done is made it simple. There's rich media in there. Like it's how can we make this the most interactive and simple like interface, uh, for [00:17:00] anyone? And I think that's what attracted me to it as a builder. Yeah. Because it was interesting and sexy.
[00:17:05] Dave: Yeah. I think a lot of people, because maybe they look at something like McDonald's and they see what they've done and they've systemized and they've been doing it for 60 years though. So you're looking at the output of 60 years worth of work and if they've continually worked it, they've probably got some really boring systems for a whole bunch 60 years worth of failure too, though, probably.
[00:17:26] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. And little tweaks in innovations and improvements, so. Uh, that's not where they got started. You, you'll end up watching the founder movie. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll see they started off by getting some chalk, going out to a basketball court, mapping out on the basketball court, the floor layout for the store.
[00:17:47] Dave: And then they say, oh, we'll put the fryer here. We'll put the thick shake machine here, we'll put the, oh, no, no, let's move this. That's the way that systems start. They're rough and ready and yeah, you kind of [00:18:00] innovate and improve them as you go, and they'll just evolve over time. So, but now there's a lot of new tools that are making it even easier.
[00:18:09] Dave: We can record little videos. When I say systems and I, I said a lot of different terms for me, mean systems. But it could be a checklist, it could be a little video, it could be step one, do this, step two, do that. Step three, do. This is systems A, how to guide or. How two guides a perfect way to explain it
[00:18:26] Hamish: and, and, and it's whatever it is to get the consistent outcome.
[00:18:30] Hamish: Yeah. Whether it's video flow chart, you know, whatever. Yeah. Um, just to get that consistent, consistent outcome. Because
[00:18:37] Matt: my thing is like, I've got a question here is like, where, where like for someone like me, where do I start? Because a lot of the way we build is in my head and to get that information out to someone, that whole building science is difficult because it's years and years and years of knowledge, but.
[00:18:53] Matt: That's where it's like, like for example, I've got, I was saying to Hamish before, we're doing an estimate at the moment on a really detailed retrofit that's [00:19:00] borderline passive house, so many different wall types. And by the time I actually hand that over to someone, I would've done it myself.
[00:19:06] Dave: Mm mm-hmm.
[00:19:07] Matt: And even on the second time, it would've been quicker to do it myself. Is it just about me finding my right role within my company? Or is it like, where do, where do you start? Yeah. Because it's just like we're talking about, for example, a year ahead of time, once you've got your videos and your documentation.
[00:19:20] Matt: But that first. Initial stage. I know you explained it on the whiteboard behind here where Yes, it's that exponential growth and it, it, sometimes you're gonna fail, but Yeah. What, what's that first per like, someone listening, if they're like, I need this, what do I do?
[00:19:33] Dave: Mm. You just wanna think about your dream client and you want to think about the key steps that you would go through to attract their attention.
[00:19:42] Dave: Convert them into a client, onboard them, deliver that core product or service, and get them to come back. We always start very high level though. Like you don't need to get down into the weeds and the details just yet. You might go, well, we get a lot of our clients through word of mouth. We run [00:20:00] some Facebook ads.
[00:20:01] Dave: They call up through the website. We have a discovery call with them, and then we do a proposal, and then we get to work. And then underneath each one of those, then you add a little bit of extra detail. And it's the bullet points. Here's the 10 questions that we ask on the discovery call. Here's. The draft of what the proposal looks like, you start very simple first.
[00:20:25] Dave: Like in the founder, when they trace out Yeah, the floor plan. That's just where you get started. And then we're building up the muscle of becoming a A systems organization and, and we just start to improve on that. And we always remember that every problem in business is a systems problem. So if you go, I don't have enough leads, well then you work on your systems.
[00:20:46] Dave: For lead generation If, if you've got clients that are always following you up about where projects are up to, and they're always unhappy to know where things are up to, well, maybe you've got a problem around the way that you onboard that client. Yeah.
[00:20:59] Matt: Usually it's you. That's [00:21:00] a problem. Like I always say, if you're pointing a finger at everyone else, maybe you need to look internally and go, well, am I the problem?
[00:21:05] Matt: Yes. There's a number of those things going on in society right now, so, yeah. Yeah. So you,
[00:21:09] Hamish: you call that the critical client
[00:21:11] Dave: flow?
[00:21:11] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's the first milestone that you want to get down Yeah. Is can we document all of the key systems to deliver your core product or service? Yeah. the whole point is for the business to be able to make money without any sort of key person dependency, whether that's the business owner or anybody else.
[00:21:31] Hamish: When, so we've, we've done some work with one of your system agents and. The, one of the first things we did is who's our avatar client? Yeah. So we, we, we did that piece and then we kind of got the critical client flow for a particular product. Yeah. And I think we used a SIP construction build. Right. So quite specific.
[00:21:50] Hamish: And James was explaining it like, well, this is your skeleton. We're gonna work through the skeleton over the next however many months. Um, and, you know, [00:22:00] that's then gonna form the backbone of your business as a systems thinking business, and then you'll flesh everything out from there. Yeah. So from, uh, to answer your question, Matt, in my opinion, having gone through this for a little bit, where's the first place to start is actually getting that really high level.
[00:22:16] Hamish: Point of how our business runs.
[00:22:18] Matt: Yeah. And it is as simple as that. How does the business, but the thing is, with construction, there's multiple points. You've got your precon, you've got your onsite construction, you've got your handover, you've got your defects, you've got your, and that's all part of your critical
[00:22:29] Hamish: client flow.
[00:22:29] Hamish: That's exactly what we did. Yeah, okay. Exactly what we do.
[00:22:32] Matt: And you kind of leave the onsite construction part completely separate because you just dunno what to, to talk. Like where do you start? That's just experience and knowledge.
[00:22:39] Hamish: I think the, on the onsite part, and uh, this is probably something that I'd love you guys to kind of help us crack, is um, 'cause we are dealing with, uh, I would say, um, people who learn by doing, you know, they're most, well, I'm just gonna generalize, comment here.
[00:22:56] Hamish: Probably not. Massively academic. They haven't gone to [00:23:00] university, might have dropped outta school in year 10. They've come to site and they're out there. 'cause they need to move, they need to do things. They're learning by doing things. If you then put like a document in front of them. Like, what the fucks this?
[00:23:10] Hamish: I'm just gonna do that. But also
[00:23:12] Matt: building is a lot of problem solving and putting out fire. So the only reason you know how to solve that problem or put that fire out is from past experience going, well, I stuffed that in the past, that's what I did. Or maybe I do it this time. Mm. Like, that's so hard then to document, I feel and have everyone read and go over that.
[00:23:27] Dave: Yeah. We used to have a video production business in that digital agency. I. It was a bit of, a little bit of a blessing. I'm not a camera guy. Yeah. So I, I didn't know how to set up any of the tech and that's where I learnt to run a business where I don't hop on the tools 'cause I couldn't hop on the tools.
[00:23:47] Dave: Yeah. Okay. And then I remember one day the videographer needed an extra person to help and he said, oh, come out on the shoot with me. And I remember going out on the shoot and in the car ride there, we spent 40 [00:24:00] minutes and he was asking me questions like, oh, did we? Email the client to let them know not to wear checkered shirts because that doesn't look very good on camera.
[00:24:08] Dave: Do we pack the spare battery? Oh, I hope we got the second lens. Um, the extension cable. Did you pack that? Have we got that second camera? We
[00:24:16] Matt: definitely need that for podcast because Hamish forgot his camera. I've forgot my camera. This ones,
[00:24:21] Dave: I can fish that out for you listening to this one. Uh, get those chef lists going.
[00:24:25] Dave: So afterwards we did, we created a, uh, pre. Shoot checklist that he did the night before, and what I realized on the next shoot, about six months later, I went on the shoot, he put that in place and then we had a very different discussion in the car next time. It was how he wanted to get the best performance from the actors, the story arc that he wanted to do, the visual.
[00:24:47] Dave: And then it made me realize that there's so many things in business. Just need to happen that you aren't adding any creative magic to problem solving. And if it was [00:25:00] just done, you might create the space for the team member to do some of their best work on the problem solving. So maybe an easier place for.
[00:25:08] Dave: A lot of the builders to start would be some of the office based stuff. The, um, scheduling, the quoting, the follow up, the entering into the CRM, the setting up the project. Like there's gotta be a
[00:25:22] Hamish: bunch of that stuff. A hundred percent. I feel, I feel, I feel as a, like a small business that. For me, the, the place that we've started first.
[00:25:30] Hamish: Yeah. And that's where we've, that's where we've actually spent the most amount of time. And Gne, I know you're gonna be listening to this, so can you please put together a checklist for what we need on a, on a podcast shoot day?
[00:25:40]
[00:25:40] Hamish: I, I reckon in summary, like regardless of what business you're in, whether you're a builder or you're podcasting or podcast or you clean toilets out for a living, like you, you can systemize any business.
[00:25:52] Hamish: Like, and I would think, and I, my advice to anyone on the journey is just start somewhere. 'cause the task is enormous. It [00:26:00] really is. It's like a mountain. It's, it's an, it's an enormous task, but you've gotta
[00:26:03] Dave: start somewhere almost by calling it a task as well, uh, makes the person think that there's an end.
[00:26:11] Dave: Yeah. There is no end. What we're talking about is like a different way of thinking than a way of thinking about Great point Business where we are systems thinking. You are constantly rebuilding, re-engineering, improving those systems. McDonald's is still doing it today. Yep,
[00:26:28] Hamish: yep, gn my va.
[00:26:30] Hamish: We actually have a form in our business where the, my team have access to it. And it's a new systems form. Yep. So whenever the team have an idea, they can just dump it in there and it comes out into, uh, an Asana folder and Deanne can review it and she can either, either. We, we actually asked the team, is that anonymous or like No, no.
[00:26:49] Hamish: We asked the team, are you happy to be a part of helping to develop this system because she's our systems champion. and my team are like starting to use it. You know, it. And again, this [00:27:00] stuff, as a business owner, you should be the systems champion. And I do wanna talk, talk about that role. What is the systems champion?
[00:27:04] Hamish: Well, I wanna talk about in a second. But you need to constantly encourage your team to remind them, think about systems, think about systems. 'cause if you stop talking about it, yep. It will just become a thing that is that other shiny thing that's just got a bit dull. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:19] Dave: Yeah. You need to do it till the habits start to change.
[00:27:22] Dave: Yes. And once you re-engineer your recruitment and your onboarding systems as well. Yeah. You'll start to look for people upfront that are systems driven and then they just do it automatically. But at the start. You'll reach a point though, if you go for this long enough, then you know you've made it. When people say, oh, this is how we do things here.
[00:27:42] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:27:43] Dave: Where a new team member comes on board and they say, oh, how do I do this thing? And Oh, this is the way that we do it here. You look in the system hub and you find this system and it'll give you the step by step. Like that's where you want to get to. But we effectively, if you've got an existing team needing to retrain a bunch of habits.
[00:27:59] Dave: Yep. And [00:28:00] what we've realized is that. Business owners are typically the worst people to be sort of really directing the town on this. Yeah. I'm thinking right now
[00:28:10] Matt: why I'll be the fucking shittiest person doing this. 'cause I'm like, I'm not gonna do it, but I expect everyone else to do it. So I need someone to hold me accountable.
[00:28:16] Matt: Yeah. Yes. And
[00:28:17] Hamish: enter the systems champion. Yeah.
[00:28:18] Dave: So that's, that's this role that I've discovered after working with. You know, hundreds of businesses directly, probably thousands, indirectly. And I look at all of our best clients, the ones that have got the best results and grown and scaled and achieved freedom in their business to choose how they wanna work.
[00:28:36] Dave: And the common element is this role we call the systems and AI champion. And the systems champion, really their job is to make sure that. This is not forgotten about. It's front and center. They meet with team members. They capture best practice. They organize it into a central location. They celebrate system wins.
[00:28:58] Dave: They post new SOPs in [00:29:00] the channel. They the person on the receiving end of that form that gets filled out. Yeah, with a request of a new system. They, there's so many things that they can do, like their job effectively is to plant evidence. Like I like to say, imagine you were in a court of law and you needed to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your business was a systems driven business.
[00:29:22] Dave: What evidence could you produce? And it is the job of the systems champion to plant that evidence. Yeah, okay. Over a long enough period of time until there is undeniable proof. That you are systems driven and that's when everything changes.
[00:29:39] Hamish: Yep. Yep. No, the, and, and from my experience, uh, finally finding that systems champion, I know I'm gonna see there's a little chart behind right where, right where Dave's head is, right there.
[00:29:52] Hamish: Just point that little like exponential graph there. Yeah. Graph there. I believe that we're gonna start seeing like an exponential, [00:30:00] uh, uptake in improvement because. G Ann's gonna be in that role. and I wish I had have found her a year ago when I first started my work with James because it kind of, I did all this work and it kind of sat there for a minute.
[00:30:12] Hamish: And that's classic example of where, where
[00:30:14] Matt: did you start to find a va? Where would, what would your suggestions be?
[00:30:17] Dave: We were having this discussion just before. I love it depends on whether or not you've done work with virtual team members before or not. Yeah. Because even that happened. Yeah. Can be a bit of a learning curve.
[00:30:28] Dave: Yeah. It. And I wanna make sure that you nail this the first go round. Because if you give this a go and it doesn't quite work for you, and maybe it's because you didn't know how to direct someone to work virtually. Yeah. It can do more harm than good. Yeah. Because then you go, oh, I tried to systemize and it didn't work for us.
[00:30:47] Dave: That, that this doesn't work for us. Yeah. And you get closed off. So I think if you've never. Worked virtually, I think find a return to work Mum or dad. Yeah. That works in the area. That can kind of come in maybe where work [00:31:00] part-time. Yeah. And you give them the responsibility of the systems and AI champion and they're gonna document best practice.
[00:31:07] Dave: You buy a copy of my new book from Amazon Systems Champion and you give it to them and you say. I want you to follow this. Like I, I wrote that book for that team member to say, this is your role in the work that you need to do and is a full-time role in the business or how, how
[00:31:21] Matt: many hours a week would you say
[00:31:23] Dave: Depends on how quickly you wanna move.
[00:31:24] Dave: Some businesses, they want to do this really, really quick. They recognize the importance and they go full-time. Others don't have the capacity or budget and they start part-time. At the very least, I think you should be doing one day a week. Yeah. Okay. And. The biggest reason why is because this is the gateway to leverage ai.
[00:31:43] Dave: Yeah. And that's why I'm kind of like, you need to start doing this now and acting now, and if you just do a little bit one hour here, one hour there when we get space. Yeah. Like AI is moving too quickly to not start to give this attention [00:32:00] and process comes before. The ability to leverage ai.
[00:32:05] Matt: And when you talk ai, are you talking language models or is that specifically that,
[00:32:09] Dave: uh, I'm talking about
[00:32:10] Matt: getting robots to do some of the work.
[00:32:14] Matt: Yeah. Okay. And we mean, when you mean robots, we don't mean physical robots too. Yeah, everything.
[00:32:19] Dave: Like I, I think, um, as we all know, AI is huge. It's impacting every role, every industry, and it's moving quickly and. Every day it feels like something new is being launched. Yeah. It's only picking up pace because AI can do so much.
[00:32:37] Dave: Unless you know what it is that you want it to do, it's very hard to direct. Yeah. One of our speakers yesterday mentioned infinite possibility, but with no manual. Yeah. So effectively process is your manual. How you do what you do. The people who are winning with AI aren't saying, [00:33:00] oh, what can AI do for my business?
[00:33:02] Dave: The people winning with AI are saying, this is what I do. How can AI help me do that faster, cheaper, and better. Yeah. Yeah. So like
[00:33:11] Matt: an example I've. Went through all my social media posts the last two years, copied all the text, created a document, uploaded it, and said, write my post in this or this tone and this way of speaking.
[00:33:21] Matt: Yeah.
[00:33:21] Dave: And the secret there is you were already doing it. Yeah,
[00:33:24] Matt: yeah, yeah.
[00:33:24] Dave: And then now you're saying, okay, ai, well this is the way I've been doing, can you help me now? And now you've probably short.
[00:33:32] Matt: I save so much time now. Now, especially writing a reel. I can just write the script on this topic and it talks the way I do.
[00:33:37] Matt: Yeah.
[00:33:37] Dave: And there are hundreds of opportunities like that in everybody's business. Yeah. And the clearer you are with your processes, you can go, oh, I want to re-engineer our proposal writing process. Well, here's how we do it currently. Yeah. Here's how we do all of the calculations. And then you take that SOP, you ask chat, GPT.
[00:33:58] Dave: Oh. [00:34:00] Where can you help me in this process?
[00:34:01] Matt: Yeah. Okay. And it's, it's very early stages. We don't know what this tool of AI does really. We're just, yeah. It's like every day something's new.
[00:34:09] Dave: Yeah. All we know is that it is the fastest technology that we've ever seen, and it is been the most disruptive and that we are still very early and, but so many people
[00:34:21] Matt: are gonna lose their
[00:34:22] Dave: jobs.
[00:34:23] Hamish: Well, you know, you know, I, I've got something to say about that because we're, we're, and I'm gonna talk specifically builders, right? Yep. So I think as a chippy, hands-on kind of person, pretty safe. I reckon you, you're pretty safe. what our approach is to AI at Sanctum Homes is let's look at the people that we've got working offsite now.
[00:34:41] Hamish: So me, um, my pre-construction manager, my estimator and virtual assistant. How can we keep. Those people in their roles and supercharge them so we can scale the business. Yeah. So rather than, 'cause obviously when you start scaling, you need to put more people in. How can we use AI to keep that [00:35:00] same overhead number people cost, but increased turnover.
[00:35:06] Hamish: Yes. Increase turnover. Same, you know, same overheads. You know that, that, that maths is pretty clear. So that's how we're approaching it.
[00:35:13] Dave: Yeah. I think, um, I know you said the chippies are safe. Um, and a lot of people in the building industry go, oh, we're safe. Like the robots are a few years off. Yeah. I I still always, as a business owner, you want to act with a sense of urgency.
[00:35:29] Dave: Yeah. Oh yeah. That it feels like, 'cause we're seeing it in other industries and there will be parts of the building industry that have already changed. Well,
[00:35:37] Hamish: prefabrication is
[00:35:38] Dave: probably a estimating. Estimating,
[00:35:40] Matt: I reckon is gonna be the big one. Yeah, I, I reckon, or like running like calculations of costs, not spinning out a number, but going like, that's 200 lineal meters of,
[00:35:49] Hamish: and I think this is nine five.
[00:35:50] Hamish: This is where the, this is where the people still play a big role in that estimating role. 'cause someone's still gotta check the data. 'cause if, if AI, 'cause it's drawing from so much [00:36:00] information. Like sometimes as this in a buddy of mine was saying this, this mor, this, this morning. AI's producing data information.
[00:36:08] Hamish: Yeah. And it's gonna start, if no one's checking that data and proving it wrong, that data is gonna be reviewed by the next search and that's gonna compound and then all of a sudden we're don't trust it. Then we're getting this information that is just drawing off. What AI thought the answer was, and maybe it's not right.
[00:36:28] Hamish: And this is where it goes back to my point.
[00:36:29] Matt: You've gotta like, it's, it's a tool to help you do the work. You still
[00:36:32] Hamish: need someone to check it. Yeah. And, and say, and train it to say, no, hang on a minute. This bit, this bit's right, but this little bit here's wrong. That's not how we do it.
[00:36:39] Hamish: This is how we do it. So you kind of training the model.
[00:36:42] Matt: Are you training 'em through bots or are you training 'em through just pure conversation of starting a new chat. You use Gemini.
[00:36:47] Dave: Yeah, we, I, I'll experiment with lots, but we have decided to go all in on Gemini. Yeah, that's what I've gone all in on. Yep.
[00:36:53] Dave: Just 'cause they've got access to our data already with Google. So we train it [00:37:00] on as much information about our business as we can. We're putting in obviously our SOPs, we are putting in transcripts from call recordings. We are any of our training. Yeah. Um. We are telling it all about our business size of team industry, target market, writing style, like whatever we can we're doing to train the ai, and then it's helping us to get significantly better output.
[00:37:27] Dave: Most people go to ai. They ask a general question and they get a general response. Yeah. But if you give it full context, you can get some extraordinary results. And
[00:37:35] Matt: sometimes that's useful. Like you're just like, what do I do here with this? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah. It's, it's just a new search engine. Yeah.
[00:37:40] Matt: But, but why can't Google just shut off the rest of the like, 'cause I know you've got Microsoft coming and you've got chat GTP. Why can't they stop though? Like Gemini or Google going, no, you can't through chat GDP access our information through the Google search engine, because that's where most of the information lives.
[00:37:56] Matt: Like no one's using Ask GVAs anymore. Uh,
[00:37:59] Dave: [00:38:00] what, what's the question? You're saying how can't them, so why, yeah, why can't Google block them? Yeah. Like
[00:38:03] Matt: why can't they just block them from accessing data through a, the Google search platform?
[00:38:07] Dave: There's other ways that they're pulling data. So, I mean, they're scraping websites.
[00:38:14] Dave: All Google's data is just created a big index of all of the information. Different websites. Uh, catch PT will have its own bot out there crawling and pulling data in, and they've just got. An absolute truckload of sources that they're all piping into this one big central knowledge source that they're drawing upon.
[00:38:35] Dave: But then more than that, then it's starting to make guesses. Like all LLMs, they're like prediction models. They just tell you what the next most logical word is. Out of everything that we know, I'm going to guess what I think the next most logical, logical word. It's not smarter than
[00:38:51] Matt: humans yet, but it's a very, very, very, very close, the smartest human.
[00:38:54] Dave: Yeah, they run different tests, I think, don't they? Yeah. We're very close now. Yeah. Like I, [00:39:00] it's so clear now that I think if you're a business owner and you are not experimenting and playing around with these tools, I think you're being negligent. Even just an employee. Yeah. Well, most, even if you haven't really talked about it much, I guarantee.
[00:39:17] Dave: A lot of your office based staff will already be using chatt PTI have no problem with them using it all. Yeah.
[00:39:22] Hamish: Every, every time I, uh, have online meetings, teams meetings with, um, both my VAs based in Philippines, I can always see the chat thing and I'm like, you know what? Cool. 'cause the data you're spitting out, I'm like, you're obviously giving it the right prompts to give good data.
[00:39:38] Hamish: So I've got no problem with that. What's
[00:39:39] Matt: the difference of using Google to search the answer Pro question.
[00:39:42] Hamish: Yeah. So, um, Dave, how so this system champion idea and this AI champion idea, like how is that system champion? Because this is my idea of the system champion 12 months ago is actually completely different because AI is now this big thing.
[00:39:56] Hamish: Yeah. So how are our system champion today in [00:40:00] 2025 utilizing AI to help write the systems?
[00:40:03] Dave: Mm. First off, the systems champion they're using. You know, whether it's chat, PT or some of the tools built into our software system hub, they'll record tasks getting done. They'll take the transcripts, they'll paste it in, and then they'll say, convert that to an SOP.
[00:40:23] Dave: Just that action alone starts to build up the systems champions muscle for using AI and going, oh, that's how it works. And. We teach them on how to do their job quicker. 'cause previously there was a little bit of friction around documentation and actually creating the process. And now we can accelerate it significantly.
[00:40:46] Dave: They start to see wins by using the tools, and then they're meeting with team members to find out how they're doing tasks. And then they naturally start to spot opportunities where they're like, oh, that's [00:41:00] how you're doing it. Have you ever thought about. Using chat t here or Gemini.
[00:41:05] Hamish: And can I maybe point out an, an obvious one is, you know, most of these interactions with the, uh, system champion and the expert, so it might be carpenter or estimator, whatever is recorded.
[00:41:17] Hamish: Loom, I know. And Komodo actually have a automatic script that comes out and then it's also got an automatic, I know with Loom you can actually click a button and say, turn this into an SOP. Yep. So it does turn it into it. Really. Yep. But. You as the systems champion or the expert need to review it because there's no point having a system in there that's wrong.
[00:41:38] Hamish: Yeah, it's not related to your business. So there still requires it's probably not quantity. Well, there still requires that kind of expert human eye to run over it, but. 90% of the work's done for you. Yeah, like the format there, the framework's there that you can then go, right, well I changed this. That's not quite how we do it.
[00:41:54] Hamish: They might've misinterpreted. Yeah, interpreted that bit. They wanna
[00:41:57] Dave: add links to things you've talked about, [00:42:00] attach examples, add videos, like you want to have a nice little helpful document that when someone is doing a task. They're never more than one click away. Maybe you set up a little QR code and you stick it to a piece of equipment and someone scans it, and then that jumps them to that document.
[00:42:18] Dave: It has the checklist, it has the video, little bit of extra training, and what that does goes back to what we talked about earlier, removes the excuse of. Yeah, but I didn't know how,
[00:42:27] Hamish: I actually just had a great idea about the QR code. So I, my excavator just got picked up this morning and I was very prescriptive in telling my guys this is exactly what needs to be with the excavator before it gets picked up.
[00:42:38] Hamish: Mm-hmm. If I said a QR code sticker there, bang, this is what needs to happen. Yeah. Um, now I know you've gotta go. Yes. Um, how do people get in contact with you? We've time for a moment. We've gotta go through that. Yep, yep. How do people get in contact with you? How do we do all of that? Yeah.
[00:42:51] Matt: Where do I start?
[00:42:52] Matt: If I'm like, where do, how, like I'm gonna use me as the example, what do I do? Where do I, how do I start this whole process?
[00:42:57] Dave: Do you like reading or do [00:43:00] you like listening to audio books or neither
[00:43:02] Matt: either? Uh, Netflix. Netflix. Netflix. Alright. Coming for you. There you go. That's
[00:43:08] Dave: you can head at the moment. I'd say, um,
[00:43:10] Matt: Netflix actually about to start a, they're linking with Spotify I read the other day, and anything that's on Spotify you'll be able to watch on Netflix.
[00:43:18] Dave: That's kind of cool. Maybe, so we might be on Netflix depending on, depending on when you're listening to this. Um, yeah, I'd say head over to Amazon. Yeah. And then grab the Systems Champion book. That's my new one. You can grab it on audio or physical. I feel like that's a great, nice, easy starting point and start there before you Systemology book.
[00:43:38] Dave: I think just 'cause the insight that I've gained is that. You really want a team member to help you do this. Yeah. So you need a systems champion, the Systemology book I wrote for the business owner. And it's great and it's valid and it'll speak to you. But if you listen to this and you already know that you want to do systems, the shortcut is find the team [00:44:00] member in your business who's gonna help them, uh, who's gonna do this, and give them a copy of the book.
[00:44:05] Dave: And say, I need your help to do this. And then maybe you read Systemology. Yeah. Okay.
[00:44:10] Hamish: So before we go, um, so we have a sponsor, MEGT, um, um, an amazing training provider here in Victoria. So we have a thing called a Mindful Moment, and uh, I actually had one yesterday during, you know, sitting, uh, watching the, the seminar and it was, you know, realizing.
[00:44:26] Hamish: As a business owner, we can get really overwhelmed with having to solve everything or trying to find, um, answers to, to, to things. But then coming to. An event like yesterday, I realized actually that there are people out there that can actually help me with the things that I find being a roadblock. Mm. So I think this realization of, as a business owner, there are a lot smarter people out there that have solved a problem already that's in my business.
[00:44:53] Hamish: And you know, for a fee you can pay to get them in to help you solve that problem. Yeah, [00:45:00] realizing, you know, as a business owner, like you don't have to solve everything. You just have to be the visionary to understand that there is a problem and you then set about, you know. Engaging the right person to solve that problem.
[00:45:10] Dave: There's a line that people I've heard say, which is the Who, not how. Yep. Which I love. It's a good book
[00:45:17] Matt: actually,
[00:45:17] Dave: for not how
[00:45:18] Matt: Yeah. Two books I've gotta read now. Yeah, yeah. Hey Dave. Um, but thanks to MEGT, they're sort of jumped on. Yeah. They're, um, I know both Hamish and I have apprenticeships, uh, the two, uh, big apprenticeship group with, so Yeah.
[00:45:31] Matt: Um, they're really looking to push the. Industry at the moment on again, being better. Um, I think they see something like AI as being a, uh, a powerful tool, but how do we sort of, again, bring that into apprentices and. Training. Yep. Um, there's so many opportunities there, but yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's fun.
[00:45:48] Matt: Thank for your time. Really appreciate it. I, I'm like, I'm actually like super motivated now to smash this book out.
[00:45:53] Hamish: I, you know, I was watching you and I, so something shiny again for me and keep this in here. I was watching Matt come in halfway through and I'm like, [00:46:00] I'm really keen to talk to you after this of where your head's at with this.
[00:46:03] Hamish: 'cause I know I had that aha moment. So, yeah. I've definitely got it. Yeah.
[00:46:07] Matt: I wrote a few things down, but again, I think it goes back like you just start, start with simple, easy things. It seems, just start with the low hanging fruit. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda build, build.
[00:46:16] Dave: When you go into a gym, you don't start off with heaviest weights, you start off with little weights and slowly or no weights, work out those systems, muscles.
[00:46:24] Dave: You,
[00:46:24] Hamish: your business started out as this small thing too. Yeah. And it grows over time, so. So
[00:46:28] Matt: the key takeaway that I took away from what you guys are talking about is like you were talking about, um. That some people might sort of be resistant to a bit of change. And, but both of us had to change our business to pivot, to build passive houses.
[00:46:41] Matt: Yeah. And build in a method that took what people were doing, um, as, oh, this is how we just always done it, to then go, no, we're gonna do it this way now. So that part conversation doesn't scare me. It's, I know we can do it. It's just like, again, it's like all, where do I start? Where do I start? Yeah. So, yep.
[00:46:56] Matt: Start with Systemology. That's what I reckon. Thank you. By reading the
[00:46:58] Hamish: book. Thanks, Dave. Fantastic. Thanks [00:47:00] guys.