The Future of Concrete
Concrete is responsible for 8% of global carbon emissions.
That's a staggering number when you consider how much concrete surrounds us every day. So when Daniel from Curvecrete told us his technology could reduce concrete emissions by 70%, we had to understand how. What we learned might change how you think about one of construction's most fundamental materials.
Rethinking Concrete
Daniel is an architectural engineer who builds robots that shape concrete sustainably. His approach replaces traditional cement with geopolymer made from waste byproducts. The result? Concrete that matches conventional strength while dramatically reducing environmental impact.
For builders, this represents a genuine breakthrough in maintaining performance standards while addressing sustainability concerns that clients increasingly demand. The material isn't theoretical; it's proven technology ready for real-world application.
Beyond the Mix: The Robotic Edge
Curvecrete’s innovation extends beyond the concrete mix to how it's shaped. Daniel's robotic system creates curved concrete elements that leverage natural structural advantages. Curvature enhances stiffness, allowing thinner panels that maintain strength while using less material overall.
This approach delivers double environmental benefits: lower-carbon concrete mix plus reduced material usage through optimised design. The aesthetic possibilities are compelling too - imagine infrastructure that's both beautiful and sustainable.
The Roadblocks to Revolution
If this technology is so promising, why isn't it everywhere already? Daniel explained the reality of challenging established industry standards. Small innovators face significant barriers scaling up in markets dominated by established players with entrenched processes.
Curvecrete's strategy is pragmatic: prove the concept in infrastructure applications like noise walls and retaining systems before targeting broader construction markets. This approach builds credibility while demonstrating real-world performance.
Charting a Path Forward
Industry transformation involves more than just better materials. Training requirements, regulatory approvals, and ingrained processes create resistance to change. However, Daniel's persistence paid off - Curvecrete's robotic technology patent has finally been granted after seven years of development.
This milestone represents more than intellectual property protection; it validates an approach that combines architectural vision with engineering innovation. The integration of form and function challenges construction norms while delivering measurable benefits.
Low-carbon concrete is a practical technology addressing real industry challenges. As sustainability requirements tighten and carbon costs increase, innovations like Curvecrete become competitive advantages rather than nice-to-haves.
For builders considering future projects, understanding these emerging technologies positions you ahead of regulatory changes and client demands. The question isn't whether sustainable concrete will become mainstream - it's whether you'll be ready when it does.
If you’d like to submit a question for us to discuss on the podcast, reach out to us on Instagram.
LINKS:
Curvecrete
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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[00:01:07] Hamish: Daniel, who are you?
[00:01:08] Daniel: I am an architectural engineer, a, uh, build robots that build concrete things.
[00:01:15] Daniel: And do it in a more sustainable way.
[00:01:17] Hamish: Alright, great. Thanks for coming. So what do you mean?
[00:01:21] Matt: Do you build the robots or you create the concrete? Both.
[00:01:25] Hamish: So I've, yeah, so, so while you're outside on your phone call, before I had a really in, in, in, uh, interesting conversation. So obviously, you know, I'm a like to think of myself as a sustainable builder and, you know, my ears sort of perked up when Matt said, I've got someone who's, you know, making low carbon concrete, so.
[00:01:44] Hamish: I reckon, let's start there. Mm. And maybe just explain to the listeners, like, what is it you do? Like, I've been using Eco pack concrete mm-hmm. From wholesome for, for a number of, yeah. I've
[00:01:53] Matt: done, I did my house just recently
[00:01:54] Hamish: then for, for a number of years, and have been really happy with it. And I think it's a fantastic product.
[00:01:58] Hamish: It's now specified on all our [00:02:00] jobs. Mm-hmm. But yous is a little bit different. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit about
[00:02:04] Daniel: Yeah. Uh, so we've developed a. Low carbon concrete, which is a geopolymer is what we call it. Uh, it's used as, uh, waste byproducts, uh, that replace the cement, which is the, you know, polluting part of the, uh, the, the mix design for, for standard concrete.
[00:02:22] Daniel: it is a geopolymer that achieves 50 MPA grade, uh, strength for precast applications. Uh, so we're focused on the precast market. And, uh, curve Crete is positioned in a way where, um, we can then scale up our, uh, material to be utilized on infrastructure projects for noise walls and earth retaining walls and that sort of thing.
[00:02:47] Daniel: And that's part of the reason why we're here at Archi Build.
[00:02:50] Hamish: Right.
[00:02:51] Daniel: And,
[00:02:51] Hamish: and when you say, like they're quite specific. Projects. Mm-hmm. You know, where, where Matt and I from, like a residential point of view. But you [00:03:00] are talking about like, I, I can imagine like I'm driving down the Eastern freeway and I see these big walls which are trying to stop noise transmission.
[00:03:08] Hamish: Is that the kind of stuff that you are talking about?
[00:03:09] Daniel: Yeah, that's right.
[00:03:10] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:03:11] Daniel: And, uh, yeah, so they're, you know, noise walls is a big ambition, uh, to solve for freestanding wall elements that are, you know, nine, 10 meters high. There's an abundance of them that are required for infrastructure around Australia.
[00:03:27] Daniel: Um, here at the Big build, in Victoria, uh, there's , noise wall elements that are currently being created that are 300 millimeters thick, uh, flat elements. Nine meters high, 300 millimeters thick. Um. Yeah, there's a couple of innovations that I have to explain, here. Um, so that's the benchmark.
[00:03:48] Daniel: Yeah. Three oh millimeter thick. I is high. Uh, with the technology that we developed at Curve Creek, there's the low carbon concrete, right? Um, so if we created one of those panels with our low carbon [00:04:00] concrete, it'll, um, avoid 70% of the emissions. Relative to standard concrete. But we also developed a robotic method.
[00:04:07] Daniel: Uh, that creates curved concrete elements. And the curved concrete elements are naturally much more stiff, in their geometry. Um, so you can use curvature, uh, to, to make, the elements lighter. Um,
[00:04:23] Hamish: uh, is that, does that mean you can make them thinner? Thinner, yeah. And, and does the curve. Actually help with that sound deadening, and
[00:04:32] Daniel: it, it can help with the scattering effect of sound.
[00:04:36] Daniel: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, but that's
[00:04:37] Hamish: not the primary reason why
[00:04:39] Daniel: you're, it's, that's a bonus. Yeah. That's a bonus. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, uh, so the, the curvature enables a more structurally efficient design. It means the panels can be 150 millimeter thick instead of 300.
[00:04:50] Matt: Wow. Wow. I didn't know. So, so curved concrete is stronger than straight concrete.
[00:04:54] Matt: Yes. That's Now
[00:04:56] Daniel: why is, why is it? Concrete's really good in compression. Um, [00:05:00] so if you have a flat, uh, you know, everyone can do this exercise at home, you know, with a piece of paper. If it's a flat piece of paper, it's floppy. You know, if you fold it, it becomes a little bit more stiff, or if you curve it, it also becomes stiff.
[00:05:16] Daniel: That makes sense, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Even though it's a thin sheet of paper. Um, so you use the same principle on concrete.
[00:05:22] Hamish: you talked about like this benchmark wall that your comparative that you are, you know, you, you talked about a 300, 300 wide wall by nine minutes tall. Yep.
[00:05:32] Hamish: And you're saying that your product is 70% less carbon? Yep. In the material itself? Yeah. Okay. In the material itself. Okay. So, so it's not in. 'cause yours are 150 mil thick, so there's obviously less material. Mm-hmm. So ultimately less carbon. But you are saying it's even lower. Mm-hmm. Because you can have less product and it's 70%.
[00:05:53] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. Correct. Alright, cool. So we
[00:05:55] Daniel: go to 85% less now. Yeah.
[00:05:57] Hamish: Then. And then Then a comparative than a [00:06:00] comparative. Yeah. So
[00:06:00] Matt: 70% is within the product and the rest is remaining the way that you construct. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Okay. And you are you reducing the cement? Through flash and slag or Correct. Yeah. Okay, cool.
[00:06:10] Matt: Well, well, you're,
[00:06:10] Hamish: you're eliminating the cement because you've got a, a geopolymer,
[00:06:13] Matt: I thought you can't eliminate a hundred percent cement.
[00:06:16] Hamish: You can Yeah. Because you're using a different, so, so, um, while you're outside on your phone, we're talking about a company, uh, in Queensland called Wagners. Mm-hmm. And they've actually got a, a, a geo another.
[00:06:26] Hamish: They're like, you guys, it's a geopolymer and there's no cement cement in it.
[00:06:30] Matt: So what's a geopolymer that it's a. Do. Is it like a plastic?
[00:06:33] Daniel: Uh, no, no, no. It's, so this common misconception 'cause the polymer in the name, right? Yeah. But the geo is what counts. Yeah. Okay. Right. So the geo part of it is that's really mineral substance.
[00:06:44] Daniel: It's more like rock. it's usually a metal with a metal oxide with, with some carbon atoms attached to it and that sort of thing. Or silica. So yeah, a geopolymer. Primarily in its chemistry is an illuminous silicate. Um, and, [00:07:00] um, you know, it creates these sort of gels, um, that are based on those materials rather than the polymers which are, uh, hydrocarbons.
[00:07:08] Daniel: So is
[00:07:08] Matt: that a more rigid, is it more fluid structure compared to a rigid structure?
[00:07:11] Daniel: It's,
[00:07:12] Matt: it's,
[00:07:12] Daniel: uh, no, no. It's, uh, very similar to concrete. It's rigid, A polymer can be like flexed and ductile. Yep. But a geopolymer is very much more like a rock. It's an artificial rock, just like concrete.
[00:07:24] Matt: And so
[00:07:25] Daniel: why is Portland cement than bad? Two reasons. One is that, uh, you have to heat it to high temperatures, go through this, you know, uh, process of, uh, creating clinker. , That uses a lot of energy. Uh, but the second thing is, is almost unavoidable, is within the chemistry itself.
[00:07:46] Daniel: When you do heat it, it releases carbon dioxide, uh, in the process. And if you , combine those two, processes, it 8% of all global emissions. Uh, so 4% from the heating of the cement [00:08:00] and another 4% from the emission of CO2 in that chemistry process. Second most used substance on the planet, uh, to water, uh, is emitting.
[00:08:10] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing
[00:08:11] Hamish: is, it's such a fucking good pro product. Like, it's such an amazing material. We put that much concrete. We,
[00:08:17] Matt: we pour the amount to build Manhattan per week. Is that right? Something? Yeah, something like that. Something crazy. Amount of concrete, like it's on, it's literally everywhere you see him, so.
[00:08:26] Matt: I wanna go back. Where did, are you a chemical engineer? What's your background?
[00:08:29] Daniel: , My background,
[00:08:30] Daniel: I, I, put it mostly on my father as electronic engineer, who, you know, from, from a young age, I got exposed to creating, uh, electrical circuits and things. Um, you know, uh, some of the toys that I made, uh, it was a remote control boat.
[00:08:46] Daniel: Um, my dad. Uh, didn't just buy the components that we could build the remote control boat. He showed me a design of a circuit for, , you know, radio receiver and I soldered it myself and had to figure [00:09:00] out the circuitry when I was, uh, about 13 years old. Wow. , So created my first circuit world there and, um, and then built all sorts of.
[00:09:08] Daniel: Things, you know, always building things, furniture out the garage. Designing them. Introduced to cad, you know, computer aid design. When I was 17 through my graphic design teacher at school, I was like, oh, this is cool. Can do things in 3D. And had a passion for architecture. Uh, that put me on this journey in academia.
[00:09:30] Daniel: Uh, 'cause I got accepted to aerospace engineering. Um, he's a real engineer. He's a real, got a smart bookie. Yeah. Love math. You know, that was, what do we call him? Rocket scientist. Rocket scientist. Rocket. Real, real rocket scientist. Anyway, there's, there's a lot of history there, but, um, in a nutshell, aerospace, eng, civil Eng and architecture, all sort of combined academically.
[00:09:54] Daniel: And helped found the, uh, architectural engineering, uh, course at Swinburne University, [00:10:00] which I still lecture at and teach the, the young architectural engineers. And we're trying to build, you know, Australia's capability and architectural engineering. 'cause that's where all the design, integration and innovation happens in the industry.
[00:10:13] Hamish: Yeah. Could you maybe just define architectural engineering? Yeah. Because I mean, usually they're split up. You've got an architect and you've got an engineer who don't talk. Yeah, well some, occasionally they talk loudly at each other. Yeah. So, so, so what, what does that mean? So, architectural engineer,
[00:10:29] Daniel: I'll name drop Simon de Silva.
[00:10:31] Daniel: 'cause he, he mentored me as a young lecturer at RMIT when I was there. And, um, he, he used to say, there's a building, you, you wanna take this hand in glove approach. Right. So, , the architecture is the hand and the, the gloves, the, the, um, engineer or the structural engineering, and it's, um, they, they should work as one, So the, the, the architecture side of it is all the human side of how you make buildings work. Uh, the [00:11:00] engineering side is all the technology and stuff that makes the architecture function. And when you have all of that floating around in one brain rather than two separate brains, you can begin to sort of iterate in between those two things and set goals for the human aspects of the design and make the functional things sort of achieve that.
[00:11:25] Daniel: Um, so in a very general way, it's the way of thinking.
[00:11:28] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:11:29] Daniel: Um. So within like Swinburne architectural engineering degree, they learn structures, uh, but they don't learn it from, uh, like using a similar approach to civil engineering while they do the fundamentals and design a beam in isolation. In some cases with the civil engineering portion of it, uh, we teach how to design the entire building as a system, as a structural system that can be pushed and pulled and.
[00:11:56] Daniel: You know, adjusted as the design iterates. Yeah. [00:12:00] So then you can adjust it to the human requirements.
[00:12:03] Matt: Yeah.
[00:12:03] Daniel: Uh, with light and, and heat and et
[00:12:05] Matt: cetera. So you walk out as into this degree, are you able to write yourself on the architect board or an engineering board or what do you
[00:12:11] Daniel: It's an engineering board.
[00:12:12] Daniel: Okay. So it's an fully accredited, um, engineers Australia degree.
[00:12:16] Hamish: So I was just thinking, 'cause we, we've, we've interviewed a, a, an architect today, right. And um, so this is a couple of thoughts running through my brain. First thought is, it's such a practical approach when you put those two things together because there's synergy between the two.
[00:12:33] Hamish: Yeah. I think one of the limiting things that come to my mind though is that you actually remove some of the creativity that architects then are allowed to kind of flourish in. Yeah. Yeah. When they're not limited by the practical engineering side of things. Mm-hmm. Now, I'm not saying one's. Better than the other because I think both have merit from a builder's point of view.
[00:12:53] Hamish: I love the whole architecture engineer thing because that makes so much sense to me. It makes so much sense. Mm-hmm. But then I think if I [00:13:00] hadn't, if we hadn't have talked to Danny today, I wouldn't have even brought this up. I love the fact that they spend five years at at uni and they just say, just let your brain be free, be free, and create and do all those crazy things.
[00:13:13] Hamish: I mean, I don't know where I'm going with this. It just, it just happens to have been like these two thoughts that came to my mind then that, that, that both have merit.
[00:13:19] Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Both. Yeah. Well, you know, we, we need architects to challenge engineers Yes. To, you know, create what needs to be created for society.
[00:13:29] Daniel: I feel architecture responsibility to do that. I, I think, um, sometimes they, you know, actually are maybe. You know, holding back a little bit. Yeah. With, with some engineers, like, you know, you gotta keep the pressure on and Yes. And get them to innovate.
[00:13:43] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:13:44] Daniel: And, and really be comfortable with, with something that's more interesting.
[00:13:48] Hamish: And, and that's good 'cause everyone's kind of forcing everyone to step outside of their comfort zone. So then you get these amazing results. I mean, I love that you are kind of talking about that middle part though. Mm. That, that the real [00:14:00] practical. Space where everyone kind of comes together and it can, it's actually can be achievable because I think a lot of ideas just remain ideas.
[00:14:07] Hamish: Yeah. Whereas yours is like the idea and the solution.
[00:14:11] Matt: Yeah. So the robotics part, what have you, what, talk to me about that. What, what is like if you develop a robot that makes the form work or it is the formwork. Hang on the robot
[00:14:22] Hamish: is the form work? Yes.
[00:14:23] Daniel: Yeah. Okay. I completely, you're gonna, you're gonna have to, okay.
[00:14:28] Daniel: Yeah. So form work wants to be rigid, right? Um, so that's the challenge. , But to, to just to explain it, what are we doing? We're casting concrete traditional casting method, right into a form, but that form has multiple different shapes.
[00:14:46] Hamish: Yep.
[00:14:46] Daniel: That it could be in. So essentially it's an adjustable or adaptable form.
[00:14:50] Daniel: Work moves different curvature, uh, curve curved shapes. Fucking brilliant.
[00:14:56] Matt: So you're actually using, so maybe I'm gonna break this right back down. Sure. So [00:15:00] you've got form work that is a robot that will just essentially move to whatever you want the robot to hold itself as and then you pour it Correct.
[00:15:07] Matt: And the next time, like you take the concrete out and then on the next pour, it could be different shape of that exact same bit of form work. Correct. And that does not require any like manual labor to make the form work.
[00:15:15] Hamish: I mean, this is fucking genius because all you are then doing is telling the computer what it to be, and the robot's just doing that.
[00:15:20] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. So could we then see form work, um, was there an opportunity to invest in this company
[00:15:25] Matt: so you could potentially wipe out all form work for construction workers? I'd grab a term sheet, yeah. Okay. You could, you could potentially wipe, what's the minimum investment? Could you wipe out all form work, construction, labor in the future?
[00:15:37] Matt: Uh oh yeah. I
[00:15:39] Daniel: mean, possibly. So the, in, in a con,
[00:15:42] Hamish: in a controlled environment, I would say, yeah, there's an opportunity for sure.
[00:15:46] Daniel: The, my mind splits in two when you ask that question, because technically yes. Um, but then commercially, how does that work?
[00:15:53] Matt: I was gonna say 'cause well if we do even commercial sector, that's one of the biggest types of construction or trades on site, is form work.
[00:15:59] Matt: Yeah. [00:16:00] I wonder how they're gonna go if you are like, no, we're gonna cut all the jobs and we can do these. 'cause you could sit significantly reduce price. 'cause we know Labor's one of the most big components,
[00:16:07] Daniel: you know, if it's a, a company like, you know, form 700 or, or, um. Perry, you know Yeah. Porn, working systems, like they've got their systems right.
[00:16:17] Daniel: And they're, they're got a bit marketed in situ, you know, uh, form work. You know, we could go into that. Yeah. Uh, what we're. Focusing on is precast at the moment. Yeah. So you could
[00:16:27] Matt: wipe the
[00:16:27] Daniel: whole precast. Sorry.
[00:16:28] Matt: Yeah. I should refer back, change my comment. You could ref, you could change the whole precast environment.
[00:16:32] Matt: You, you know, you can, you're, you're, you're, yeah. Absolutely not one site. Yeah. You're shaking it up
[00:16:36] Hamish: like you're, you're dis you're disrupting it. Yes. So, so at the moment you, you are talking about like, um, sound barriers, right? Mm-hmm. Moving warehouses or, well, just, this is my next thing, like, I mean, you're talking about the curvature allows you to make more efficient designs.
[00:16:53] Hamish: But could you then apply that same logic to like a precast factory?
[00:16:58] Daniel: Yeah, absolutely. [00:17:00] Yeah. So that's what we're doing now. Yeah, so we, we have our own factory in West Foot Gray. We're producing product products. We in
[00:17:05] Matt: West Gray, I mean,
[00:17:06] Daniel: oh yeah. That's cool.
[00:17:06] Matt: Um, yeah. Come by. Are you down, just down towards Tottenham Way or are you at the back end?
[00:17:11] Matt: No,
[00:17:11] Daniel: Tottenham. Yeah. Yeah. , Yeah, 500 square meter facility there. It's our prototyping facility actually now, but we, we produce. Product out of it. We're currently working with the MAD team, um, on the Northeast link to, uh, produce some, uh, earth retaining walls, which are actually on show here now.
[00:17:30] Daniel: Sold in Preco today. I'll go into that in a bit more detail in a sec, but, uh, yeah, we we're producing urban furniture. We're producing earth retaining walls. Yeah, we're producing product already.
[00:17:41] Daniel: The noise walls, the bigger elements, that's where ambition lies to, to go. And we're doing that, um, in, in partnership with advanced precast.
[00:17:49] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:17:50] Daniel: Yeah. So I'd
[00:17:51] Hamish: love to just know a little bit more about the, like, the mix, like I, I just think about like how like concrete just work the concrete and [00:18:00] they wait for it to dry to a certain point before they can start finishing and stuff like that.
[00:18:04] Hamish: What is the process with your product?
[00:18:08] Daniel: Yeah. Um, it's actually very similar.
[00:18:10] Matt: So you are able to potentially remove steel as well from your, me, like your concrete, and then really reduce carbon footprint.
[00:18:17] Daniel: Yeah, so look, the challenge with us at Curvecrete is that we, we we're continuously optimizing things, um, and we need to create that clear narrative of what we're doing.
[00:18:27] Daniel: Haven't delved into that, so that's a really good question though. Yeah. Um, but, um. We've managed to demonstrate that you can actually eliminate, a lot of the steel reinforcement in concrete as well, um, by utilizing, rock as the reinforcement, uh, which sounds funny, but, uh, basalt, um, is the rock that you can use when you, uh, when you melt down basalt and stretch it into long strands.
[00:18:53] Daniel: You can create, um, basalt reinforcement. And it's got a higher tensile capacity than steel. It's [00:19:00] lower density than steel. So you end up with this compounding effect where you got about an 88% reduction in carbon emissions from, uh, the, uh, comparison of those, uh, those metrics. So steel versus the equivalent strength in basalt Rio, 88% reduction in carbon emission.
[00:19:21] Matt: What's the catch here?? I feel like it's all too good to be true. So, uh, so like, that's like. Where my, sorry, hang. Where my brain goes is like, but but why isn't this now just like what everyone's going to
[00:19:33] Daniel: Yeah. It's just a different way of engineering the system. Um, yeah. So the standards for since 1850, you know, uh, are, you know, steel reinforced concrete.
[00:19:44] Daniel: Everyone's familiar with it. They, they get it. Yeah. It's easy to
[00:19:48] Hamish: come at. Yeah.
[00:19:48] Daniel: But you, you need some driving factor to change. Like some significant driving factor for these types of concrete structures. In, uh, Canada and other regions [00:20:00] where, you've got freeze thaw issues, um, where cracks open up, uh, that's whatt.
[00:20:05] Daniel: Reinforcement's really, really good because it doesn't corrode. Um, so
[00:20:09] Hamish: yeah, con concrete cancer's gone eliminated.
[00:20:11] Daniel: Yeah, so. In environments like that, it's really essential to solve that problem. Yeah. So they use those types of systems, but here we don't have that issue as much.
[00:20:21] Hamish: So, so I just wanna go back to the vessel.
[00:20:22] Hamish: So we're introducing it. I wanna go back to the vessel thing. 'cause it, it kind of makes sense 'cause mineral is, is air spun rock, it's, it's spun rock. Correct. It comes itself together. So surely that whole process though is incredibly energy exhaustive. So like the actual like process of. Creating this basalt reinforcement is hugely, you know, and the energy intensive, energy intensive.
[00:20:48] Hamish: But what you are saying, just to confirm Mm. Is that it's less intensive than, than steel. Than steel. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So there's still, there's still some embodied carbon there, but it's a better, it's, it's
[00:20:58] Daniel: way less, yeah.
[00:20:59] Hamish: [00:21:00] How,
[00:21:00] Daniel: um, because the, you can look at it as simplest perspective as just look at the density of the material.
[00:21:06] Daniel: So density of steel is, you know, 7.8 specific gravity. Whereas Sure. Yeah, I knew that one off the top of my head too. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So from, from memory, yes. Yeah, yeah. Uh, basalt is 2.7, so you know, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alright, well you know what, penny drops now? Two and a Yeah, it's two and a half times lighter.
[00:21:27] Daniel: Yeah. Okay. Right. So then you, you know, if a lighter substance, less atoms. You know, um, so less
[00:21:34] Matt: heating. Yeah. Okay. So does that mean, and that's assuming that you're not using renewables or something to create that too? Like if you had renewables, you'd Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, you don't need as much to get there too.
[00:21:44] Matt: No.
[00:21:45] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. Right. So we've solved all the problem. Now we've got rid of Rio, we've got rid of Portland cement. So why isn't this everywhere?
[00:21:52] Daniel: I think the, you know, uh, the big challenges commercially are, well, how do you scale up, uh, these, these low carbon [00:22:00] concretes where
[00:22:01] Daniel: you have like a, a training, overhead or you know, some other different safety procedure or, um, you know, um, testing that's required prior plus politics. Uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, so, so all the, yeah, so the big, uh, cement manufacturers, you know, cement Australia and, and their, um, their people their technical departments are awesome.
[00:22:23] Daniel: Like we, we chat to them all the time. Yeah, the sustainability department. We get along with them really, really well.
[00:22:28] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:22:29] Daniel: They're all really enthusiastic to do things. But then when it comes to, uh, getting it done, actually, uh, it's a little bit slower. Okay. So what we've done is we've looked at, well, you know, can we work with independents?
[00:22:43] Daniel: Um, and, and start to like a wholesome or like a borrow or something
[00:22:47] Matt: like that? Or even No, no, smaller. Like even smaller again. Yeah. Like
[00:22:51] Hamish: wholesome. Global.
[00:22:53] Matt: Yeah. Wholesome actually in vi Yeah. In Victoria. They're like, not like, I think Pronto's the biggest in Victoria. Proto. Yeah. But, but
[00:22:58] Hamish: Hol Wholesome is a global [00:23:00] company.
[00:23:00] Matt: Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah.
[00:23:01] Daniel: So, um, so's
[00:23:03] Hamish: bur
[00:23:03] Daniel: actually Yeah, bur as well. Yeah. So, and, and, uh, Heidelberg materials or Hanson. We work with them, we work with, um, you know, master builders and Sicker Yeah. And these sort of, um, you know, uh, producers of, of raw material as well. Like it's all pretty collaborative.
[00:23:20] Daniel: Yeah. But then when it gets to the large commercial scale, it's, it's quite difficult to navigate. So the, the best that we can do is demonstrate that it can be used, get specified to specify these types of new materials and put pressure on the industry at large to, to use it more.
[00:23:40] Hamish: And, and is that the reason why, I guess you're then targeting like, I would say that they sound.
[00:23:46] Hamish: Infrastructure is a product. Yeah. Is that why you've kind of targeted that at this point in time? 'cause then there's a proof of concept that's,
[00:23:52] Daniel: yeah. That's kind of like a North Star, um, yeah. Product. Okay. Um, so, , we worked with Arup as well, I should mention. Yeah. [00:24:00] Um, they, uh, helped us a lot with, uh, you know, engineering the system to the point where it can be, you know, uh, specified.
[00:24:08] Daniel: So they proved out that. You know, we could reduce the material by half. And, you know, have all the re reinforcement, detailing everything.
[00:24:17] Hamish: There seems like there's a lot of red tape that you gotta go through. Yeah. In my, my mind like immediately goes to, well. Why aren't I pouring this concrete next week in my residential lab? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:25] Matt: And that's where my brain like, why?
[00:24:27] Matt: And I'm
[00:24:27] Hamish: just like, why aren't we just doing this? Because if you like just sitting with you now, like is enough for me to go. Right. Well that makes all the sense. Mm-hmm. But I guess if I think about all of the infrastructure that's around us at the moment is purely based around that. Using Portland cement.
[00:24:45] Hamish: Mm-hmm. We've got plants. We put it in the back of a concrete truck and then we deliver it to site. Mm-hmm. Like that network's all already there and Yeah. And, and existing, I'd imagine it would be like, 'cause the, the, the opportunities for you guys are endless. Mm-hmm. Like. Like, [00:25:00]
[00:25:00] Matt: why is a normal car? This is why I've asked the question before, like, why don't it just get rid of normal concrete and just only use low carbon concrete?
[00:25:05] Matt: Well,
[00:25:05] Hamish: I'd said this on, like, I was just saying this, um, bef you know, before you came in, Matt, that, you know, I drive past that, you know, we we're that main hub of, um, all the buzzes with this new tunnels and links that we're, you know, that we've got at the moment. And there's a Boral plant right in the middle in Bo.
[00:25:21] Hamish: Mm-hmm. And I had a thought the other day as I was driving past and I thought, I wonder why they're not using low carb concrete on. All of this concrete infrastructure that's going in. Mm-hmm. And I guarantee that, um, it's not happening. It's just, it's just the same old, same old stuff. Yep. And why is it not mandated that it's has, that it's low carbon?
[00:25:41] Hamish: Because there are tons, like tens of millions of tons of concrete that are getting, putting in there.
[00:25:47] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:48] Hamish: It just, it,
[00:25:49] Matt: I, I actually don't, it actually really frustrates me. It's just like, just roll with a new one. Because once you have more. Like supply of it. The cost comes down. Exactly. Exactly. Like, it just, we just hate that.
[00:25:59] Matt: We're just gonna make that [00:26:00] one obsolete now because it's outdated. We've got a better technology.
[00:26:03] Hamish: Are you just targeting a product? And in my mind, a precast panel is a product, rather than going, all right, well, we're just, we're gonna try and target every single plant that's out there and have their
[00:26:16] Hamish: trucks filled with our concrete. You're like, we can provide you a solution. Here's the solution for this problem. And it's quite specific. It's precast panel. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you think that that's easier for you guys to focus on? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But, but ultimately your market is infinite.
[00:26:32] Daniel: Yeah. Like, we could use this in a slab.
[00:26:34] Daniel: Yeah. the, the challenge, um, that is faced with these things, to be real is. , That, if you've got a, uh, init concrete supplier, um, that deals with concrete, and they're just churning it out, you know, they've got their supply contracts, they've got, you know, um, they know how to work the material, these sort of things.
[00:26:55] Daniel: Um, they don't have training overheads and this sort of thing, so. You know, there, there's [00:27:00] a training overhead, there's, it's the
[00:27:02] Matt: same concrete, like we've used it. My concrete, our reckon have no idea about the difference.
[00:27:05] Hamish: Yeah. But I, I see where you are coming from though, because like, 'cause there is that, there's a, there's a real like, change here that needs to happen.
[00:27:13] Hamish: It's just
[00:27:13] Daniel: that, it's the, the unfamiliarity of it, from the specifier's perspective, I, I think that it comes down to, so I'm, I'm in the. , Nitty gritty of, um, you know, how how do we inform, concrete suppliers about not using cement at all. And also educating the specifiers at the same time.
[00:27:36] Daniel: Uh, to say you can specify this, you don't have to specify just standard concrete. If it gets too far in that design process or specification process, and then the alternative comes in, , that sort of consultancy overhead, you know, doesn't exist Yep. On projects. So the, the money doesn't get spent on trying to change something.
[00:27:56] Daniel: It's just, oh, it's already done. Um, so there's two, [00:28:00] two angles, uh, that we have to attack essentially.
[00:28:04] Hamish: So like may maybe. I know dumbing down's the right term, but Oh, sure. Just, yeah. Dumb it down. So, so if, hypothetically speaking mm-hmm. Your product was taking the place of Portland cement. Mm-hmm. And, and, and is that the c the, the component in the mix that you are replacing?
[00:28:25] Hamish: Yes. Okay. So remove Portland cement input your, yeah. Your yours into that supply chain. So two, two part question. Mm-hmm. Does the rest of their, infrastructure and delivery of it change or is it the same?
[00:28:39] Daniel: The infrastructure slightly changes. Because, with our mix design you're using, uh, slag and flash Yeah.
[00:28:47] Daniel: Rather than cement. Yeah. So, you know, some batching plants might have, you know, just a silo for cement. Yeah. Maybe just a silo for. You know, flash or something. Yeah. Maybe they need to introduce another [00:29:00] silo for the slash
[00:29:01] Hamish: Okay. Okay. And this is what I was getting at. Yeah, because there's all those costs as well.
[00:29:04] Hamish: Investment from the plan. Exactly. But
[00:29:06] Matt: then you go back to your Boral comment where they've just made one on the new freeway. Like why isn't it just like, that's what we're making. But then,
[00:29:12] Daniel: but then, you know, if you give the example, like we, we've been doing a little bit of, um, back and forth with Geo Quest up in Aubrey, um, the Hanson facility hub, Heidelberg materials facility that has.
[00:29:26] Daniel: Cement, uh, slag and flash there, already. But that was because Geo Quest pushed, sorry, sorry, Hanson. But you know, um, geo Quest pushed them to Yeah. To put it in there because they really want to do it. Yeah. So, um, the pressures from Precasters, or other builders potentially, um, and institute Concreters, if they pressure.
[00:29:48] Daniel: The raw material suppliers to Yeah. Change their facilities. They'll change it. Yeah. If the demand is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Um, and so we are here to like build that demand. Yeah. Okay. So you, so
[00:29:59] Hamish: you are now creating demand. [00:30:00] So, so my, my second question Yeah. Is. , If, you know, there's this demand and ma magically tomorrow mm-hmm.
[00:30:06] Hamish: Everyone's like, well, you know what, we're just gonna be using your concrete. Mm-hmm. Do you have the supply chain for it?
[00:30:11] Daniel: Yeah.
[00:30:11] Hamish: Uh, I mean, yes. And, and in and in my mind, and I'm, I'm assuming this is like a synthetic kind of, so, so you've got the fly ash and then what you, I know you can't talk about your special sauce.
[00:30:22] Hamish: Oh, the, so yeah, the sauce, the secret sauce. So is that, is that like just easily manufactured. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well,
[00:30:30] Matt: yeah. Okay, so it's a no brainer. Now we need, we need to wrap this one up, so, yeah. Yeah. This, this is exciting. Yeah, this is exciting. I, I had
[00:30:37] Daniel: an announcement, by the way. Yeah. Go, go for, go, go.
[00:30:39] Daniel: What's, what's the announcement? I'm breaking news now, so Breaking news. Yeah. Yeah, breaking news. Literally just got an email a couple hours ago from my patent attorney. And, , the, uh, patent That we're applying for, for our robotic technology, the adaptive mold, after seven years, um, wow.
[00:30:55] Daniel: Just got granted congrat. Congratulations. Wow. So there's a certificate there. [00:31:00] I mean, you can, you can certificate of, you can show it to the, that is, you can see that. That is
[00:31:05] Matt: pretty cool. Wow. There you go. Geez. We're token wherever dropping all the, here Jackie Fate. Unreal.
[00:31:12] Hamish: Hey, look, I'm, I'm, you know what? I guess like, just broadly speaking, like I'm excited.
[00:31:17] Hamish: You know, right now we're surrounded by a pretty innovative product, even though it's been around forever. You know, Dura panel, you know, we're talking to you now of a low carbon concrete. You know, for me, I don't know, concrete. I, I love it and I hate it at the same time. Like it's solves the problem
[00:31:31] Matt: that we have
[00:31:31] Hamish: concerns with.
[00:31:32] Hamish: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it's there forever. Um, this for me, I dunno, this is the future. Mm. It's amazing. Well done. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming on, mate. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cool.