Where Most Building Dreams Quietly Die

Written By Matthew Carland

Good design isn’t something you look at. It’s something you live in.

You can live in a house that looks incredible and still feel annoyed by it every day. That’s the point James Goodlet from Altereco Design keeps coming back to. Good design isn’t just a pretty facade or a clever roofline. It’s comfort, movement, light, sound, air quality, and the quiet stuff that makes a home feel easy to be in.

In this part of the pre-construction series, we sit down with James to talk about what “good design” actually means, and what has to happen before anyone starts drawing lines on paper. We get into why some award-winning homes can still be horrible to live in, and why the best design decisions often come from understanding how people actually move through their day.

James shares a simple way to think about comfort that goes beyond temperature. He talks about a hempcrete home in Lyonville, Victoria where the whole place just works, even in the middle of winter, because the design supports the lived experience. It’s a good reminder that performance and feeling aren’t separate conversations. They’re the same conversation.

The bigger point, though, is process. James doesn’t start with a sketch. He starts with alignment. Clare is the gatekeeper in their business, and that early filter matters because this is a long journey and nobody wants to be in an awkward relationship from day one. Fees, expectations, and personalities all have to match, and sometimes the first workshop is less about design and more about getting the brief and budget right, including between couples.

Before pen goes to paper, due diligence needs to be done properly. Survey, easements, civil plans, overlays, and the risks that can quietly derail a project later. James makes it abundantly clear that you can’t just kick cans down the road. If you know there’s a combined drain, you deal with it early. If there’s a heritage overlay, you bring it forward and plan for it. Ignoring it always costs more later.

One of the best parts of the conversation is the client questionnaire. It’s the kind of form that makes people roll their eyes until they see the outcome. 

How do you sleep? 

Who gets up first? 

What do you cook? 

Do you ride a bike? 

Do you surf? 

What do you need to store? 

It’s not about being nosy. It’s about extracting the information that creates better decisions later, like where an ensuite sits, how lighting works in the morning, and how the house supports two people with different rhythms.

James also explains why he designs progressively. He’ll develop the concept, but the moment he hits a risky point where pricing implications aren’t clear, he brings a builder in early, even at sketch stage. Retaining walls, cut and fill, soil type, drainage, slab versus stumps, and the constructability decisions that can swing budgets fast. The point isn’t to get a perfect number early. It’s to get enough confidence to keep investing in the right direction.

From there, the builder selection process is about fit, not familiarity. Altereco will suggest builders they trust, but they’re not precious if the client has someone else in mind. They just want the client to speak to a few people so they understand what good looks like, because not every builder is right for every job, and being able to say no is part of doing this professionally.

The conversation then shifts into roles and responsibilities, and it’s one of the clearest breakdowns we’ve had in this series. James distinguishes between being a draftsperson who hands over drawings and disappears, and being engaged as lead consultant to guide the client through the whole pre-con journey. Hamish and Matt both land on the same conclusion. Up until site, the designer needs to lead. Once you’re on site, the builder takes the lead.

James breaks pricing into three stages. Budgeting, estimating, and contract. Budgeting is broad and risk-based. Estimating is where the detail matters, and he prefers estimates to be structured like a tender breakdown so categories don’t get forgotten. Contract is where clients are most stressed, so you need to remove the noise. They don’t need 54 pages of inclusions. They need clarity on exclusions, plus provisional sums and prime costs clearly listed.

A practical takeaway is the two line items people forget in early pricing conversations. Contingency and inflation. They’re different. Contingency is about missing information and unknowns, and it should drop as the design progresses. Inflation is about time, and if you’re pricing now but building later, you need to be honest about what that means. The theme across it all is simple. Better information earlier creates fewer ugly conversations later.

James also talks about the feedback loop that makes teams better. Designers aren’t reading trade breakdowns to challenge builders for the sake of it. They’re reading them for context and pattern recognition, and then feeding that knowledge back into their interior designers and templates so decisions get smarter over time. It’s a strong argument against gatekeeping. Share allowances. Share assumptions. Help the whole team design to budget instead of guessing.

One of the most useful suggestions James had is to whiteboard the whole pre-con timeline as a group: builder, client, and designer. Plot the path from now to site start. Decide when pricing updates are needed and when they’re not. You don’t need ten updates. You need the right updates at the right milestones, and someone needs to lead the process and hit them.

LINKS:

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  • [00:00:00] Hamish: We, uh, joined, um- We're 

    [00:00:03] Matt: at the Pro Clima Studios ... 

    [00:00:05] Hamish: Mobile Pro Clima 

    [00:00:06] Matt: Studios again Yeah, so Pro Climba, major sponsor. But we today have, we've had Claire from Alter Eco on before. She's actually one of our first guests. But we got- Yeah ... we got the head honcho. 

    [00:00:15] Hamish: So, um, this is continuing on from our, uh, I guess pre-construction series.

    [00:00:20] And, you know, we've had Ca- D- Dr. Cam, we've had Brad, you and I have had caught up, um- A number of times ... on a couple of, couple of topics. Uh, and today we thought it'd, I guess, be best to bring in a designer. 

    [00:00:32] Matt: Yeah, so James, Olyslagers Design. 

    [00:00:33] Hamish: They have a reasonable kind of place in the whole pre-construction process, I guess.

    [00:00:38] Matt: And it's probably for someone I know pre-construction with more than any other designer. 

    [00:00:42] Hamish: I, and you know, here's a fun fact 

    [00:00:44] Matt: He designed a house on Grand Designs. Did you know that? 

    [00:00:46] Hamish: I did know that. But here's another fun fact. Do you know how I first got to know who you were, was listening to you on a podcast.

    [00:00:53] Oh, dear. And I think I then reached out straight away and I said, "Hey, I think we should work together." This was years ago. It was like [00:01:00] 2021 or something. 

    [00:01:01] James: It was a long time ago. It 

    [00:01:01] Hamish: was a long time 

    [00:01:02] James: ago. I've been waiting a long time for an invite, haven't I? 

    [00:01:04] Matt: You're like the one of the easiest gets to get on, so it was like, "We'll just get you."

    [00:01:08] Hamish: We'll kick him down the road. 

    [00:01:08] James: Is that, is that an insult? 

    [00:01:09] Hamish: No, we're like, oh, we need to fill something. I'll just get James 

    [00:01:12] Matt: in. No, because it's like we kind of also had that we wanted, we didn't want to use those type of guests very early on as like disposable guests when we didn't know what we were doing.

    [00:01:20] Mm-hmm. And we didn't have any purpose behind a conversation. 

    [00:01:23] Hamish: I've got a, I've got a good question to start off with. Can we, can we go? 

    [00:01:26] Matt: Yeah, go for it. 

    [00:01:27] Hamish: Why is good design important? 

    [00:01:30] James: Oh, it all starts with good design, doesn't it? 

    [00:01:32] Hamish: Hmm. Why is it important though? Why can't we just draw and just... 

    [00:01:36] Matt: That's all they do though, don't they?

    [00:01:37] James: Lines on paper. 

    [00:01:38] Hamish: Lines on paper. 

    [00:01:40] James: You didn't work out that box cutter, mate. Come on. It's just lines on paper. 

    [00:01:43] Matt: Oh, don't talk to me about box cut- box cutters. 

    [00:01:46] Hamish: Yeah. Why, why is good design important? Like what, what, what is the value in our everyday life of like good design? Like... 

    [00:01:53] James: It helps create how you've... Well, it nurtures the environment that you- Hmm

    [00:01:57] you're living in. Like it is [00:02:00] the, the essence of how we live. Like we know the stats about how long we, how much time we spend indoors. 

    [00:02:06] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:02:07] James: You picture how you would feel in one space compared to another if it was done differently in any particular way. 

    [00:02:16] Hamish: Do you think that good design is seen or good design is felt?

    [00:02:22] James: Uh, seeing is just one of the senses that contributes to it. 

    [00:02:26] Hamish: Yeah 

    [00:02:27] James: But felt 

    [00:02:28] Matt: is- Felt is way more. After living in one of your homes, I can tell you it's felt. 

    [00:02:31] Hamish: Yeah 

    [00:02:31] Matt: Every day of the week. 

    [00:02:32] Hamish: Yeah. I, I, I, and it's, I guess it's loaded 'cause I know what the answer is in my mind. Yeah. Because I think aesthetics is one thing, but, like, y- you could live in the most beautifully aesthetic home- Mm-hmm

    [00:02:42] and it'd be fucking horrible to live in. 

    [00:02:44] James: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:02:45] Matt: It's like all those ones that have won all those architecture awards, aren't they? 

    [00:02:48] Hamish: Oh, Matt, you fucking love 

    [00:02:49] James: fucking with me. Like I've done- I've done a lot of houses, right? 

    [00:02:53] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:02:54] James: Um, and then I feel that, I'll give you context right now. We're staying up in, [00:03:00] uh, Lineville, in the hempcrete house.

    [00:03:01] Oh, did you come down from Lineville today? Yeah, yeah. Oh- So- ... I saw 

    [00:03:03] Hamish: you were staying up 

    [00:03:04] James: there. Yeah ... yeah, we're still friends with our client- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... from five years ago. 

    [00:03:07] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:03:08] James: Um, and that is a hempcrete house, um, that just sits on a hill on a little farm in Lineville. Now, it's middle of winter, right?

    [00:03:16] It is fresh. It hasn't got above 10 degrees there. Um- And it's 

    [00:03:20] Matt: probably wet 

    [00:03:21] James: and damp and- For the two weeks we've been there. It's flogging it down that, uh- Yeah ... this last couple of weeks. 

    [00:03:26] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:03:26] James: Um, but, like- Like we've built our house, and we love our house, and the feeling that we have within that. We have a tree canopy outlook and so forth.

    [00:03:35] But when you go into this house, it's a completely different site, completely different environment. '

    [00:03:40] Hamish: Cause we're right in the middle of a paddock, isn't it? Like- 

    [00:03:41] James: Yeah. 

    [00:03:42] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:03:42] James: Yeah. And it's, it's established gardens and stuff around it now. It doesn't look as barren as it did when the house was first done. But the feeling inside that house, I, I...

    [00:03:54] Acoustically, uh, all, all of those, you know, senses that we have, [00:04:00] it's ju- it just works. It just works really well. Do, do you think 

    [00:04:01] Hamish: it's the density of the hemp? 

    [00:04:03] James: Yeah. No, I think- Yeah ... that's a part of it. Yeah. Like, it's a slab on a ground in a cold environment- Mm ... and it's obviously decoupled, and it is amazing.

    [00:04:10] I'm walking around barefoot in there. So this 

    [00:04:12] Matt: is a good starting point because we all talk about comfort. We've digressed already. No, no, but we talk about comfort as everyone thinks, "Oh, a comfortable home is something firmly comfortable." 

    [00:04:21] James: Yeah. 

    [00:04:22] Matt: That is, like, the easiest one to tick of a box, but there's also sound, vibrations, there's, there's odors, there's air quality, and there is light.

    [00:04:31] James: Yeah. So they all contribute back to- Yeah ... what we're talking about, good design. Wi- without a doubt, they all play a part in it. Um, I think as far as the process of designing that space, like, we all need to understand movement, and, and function, and different functions, and how they all connect, and that is good design and experience definitely- Mm

    [00:04:51] to understand how that all works. But in this particular house, for a couple to live in and get that sight and connection [00:05:00] working, it, yeah, I just... We're, we're in there, and we're just like, "This is cool." We really 

    [00:05:05] Hamish: enjoy it. Front, front, front, front page of Sanctuary, wasn't it? 

    [00:05:07] James: Yeah. 

    [00:05:07] Hamish: Yeah. Do, do you think- I think, I think our hempcrete house was, like, way in the back of that particular, uh, episode, but whatever.

    [00:05:15] James: Yeah, I was, I was surprised, uh, to see it on the cover of it. Anna was- I'm not. 

    [00:05:19] Hamish: I'm- ... Anna was there on our- Do you know why, do you know why I'm not? Yeah. Because- 

    [00:05:22] Matt: It looks fucking cool ... 

    [00:05:23] Hamish: it, n- not only does it look cool, and this is what I actually love about Sanctuary Magazine, they're actually putting... And big shout-out to Anna and the team there.

    [00:05:31] Mm. They're putting homes on there that are not only aspirational, but they're also achievable- Yeah ... in my opinion. I think that- Mm ... particular house, if you... Okay, you, let's compare the hempcrete house that we built and the hempcrete house that you guys designed and your owners built. Yeah. Two different buildings.

    [00:05:46] The one that we built- It's also- ... is, I don't feel is achievable for the broader community. 

    [00:05:52] James: Yeah. And it also demonstrates a response to the brief- 

    [00:05:54] Hamish: Yep ... 

    [00:05:55] James: which was only for two people to live in. Yeah. So they've got a separate shed with a little studio [00:06:00] in it for their woofers and stuff like that, or, or guests to stay in.

    [00:06:03] Yeah. So it's just for them. Yeah. You know, um, so- It's literally, 

    [00:06:05] Matt: literally a one-bedroom house ... 

    [00:06:06] James: yeah, or one mezzanine 

    [00:06:09] Matt: Yeah. Wow. 

    [00:06:09] James: So it's a conversation I'm just having with them at the moment about aging in place, and whether- Ah ... a ground floor bedroom needs to happen at some point in time. 

    [00:06:17] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, int- interesting.

    [00:06:20] Um- 

    [00:06:21] James: It's long way to the toilet in the dark. Yeah. 

    [00:06:24] Matt: So where, where does 

    [00:06:25] Hamish: this- 'Cause it's outside or... I don't know. You gotta come down the mezzanine. It's the old outhouse. Yeah. Yeah, see I, I love the idea of a mezzanine. 

    [00:06:31] James: But the volume in there is 

    [00:06:32] Matt: tremendous. I fully meant to say I love the idea of an outhouse.

    [00:06:34] Hamish: No. I was 

    [00:06:35] Matt: like- Dude, you 

    [00:06:35] Hamish: know- ... I'm funny in 

    [00:06:36] Matt: winter ... 

    [00:06:37] Hamish: dude, you know what? We have, I was having this conversation with some friends the other day, that we've, we've been in our house now for two and a half years, and before we had this most amazingly luxurious laundry. Huge bench, about as long as this table, where you unfold, you know, fold all your laundry there, and I was...

    [00:06:51] It was a really nice space to live in. I now have to go outside on the south-facing side of the house. It is cold, and dark, and [00:07:00] gloomy, and I go into this little, like, toilet block style room to do the laundry, and Lucy and I fucking hate it. 

    [00:07:08] Matt: So where did it start for you? You, you did... Have I got this right?

    [00:07:10] You did an architect degree but never finished it, is that right? 

    [00:07:14] James: Yeah, so unconventional journey. Didn't really, uh, do that well in, uh, high school grades, I guess, to get into anything, even though I was pressured from my mum. But I grew up on the coast, and I was just enjoying life. Uh- ... full ahead in cricket and then just, yeah, surfing, and just didn't really care.

    [00:07:34] Then it came to the crunch, going to uni, and, uh- 

    [00:07:37] Hamish: Where'd you grow up? 

    [00:07:38] James: In Apollo Bay. 

    [00:07:39] Hamish: Oh, so down, well, a little bit further- Yeah ... around than where you are now. Mm. But yeah, down 

    [00:07:43] James: the coast. Yeah, I was a kid in primary school in Northcote, actually. Yeah. Um, and- Fun fact, I just thought of this when I was on the way here navigating.

    [00:07:52] We were living on Westgarth Street- 

    [00:07:55] Matt: Oh, yeah ... 

    [00:07:55] James: as a kid in Northcote, and my mum used to work on Westgarth Street in North Fitzroy. Mm. [00:08:00] Oh. I'm like, "I wonder where the building was that she was in." I just remember as a kid that she li- Do you reckon it's this one? ... lived in one. 

    [00:08:06] Matt: It'd have to be one of these ones across the road.

    [00:08:07] They're all old. 

    [00:08:08] James: Well, it was for, like, a, um, like, you know, a prop, um- Yeah, okay ... stage building company- Yep ... whatever they call themselves. Anyway. 

    [00:08:16] Matt: So you did a architecture degree? 

    [00:08:17] James: Nah, then I was like, uh... I actually did a year of engineering- Oh, okay ... mechanical engineering. Yep. I hated it. Six weeks in I was just like- Not for me

    [00:08:26] not even really mentally rocking up, 'cause it just wasn't my thing. Took some time to think about what I wanted to do and, um, yeah, went into building design. Yep. 'Cause I'd, I'd spent all of my, uh, I guess, you know, high school jobs was working in family construction, so uncles, grandfather, dad, all in building, so that's what I wanted.

    [00:08:52] Made 

    [00:08:52] Matt: sense. 

    [00:08:53] James: It made sense, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I sort of had this in, in this in my mind, like, I don't want to be on the tools, but design and construct was really [00:09:00] appealing to me at the time- Yeah ... in the '90s for some reason. Anyway, started building design. Uh, got out of that, and I got a job with an architect in Elsternwick, and he was, uh, his primary work was converting factories into residential.

    [00:09:16] So we'd just do all these really unique builds- Yeah ... of, uh, butter factories and- That's cool ... old dairies- That's awesome ... and stuff like that. I 

    [00:09:23] Matt: actually got one of them now to turn that into a passive house. 

    [00:09:25] James: Yeah. Oh, that's sick. And it, it was really interesting stuff. It'll be a box in a box. It was back when they were doing, um, shells, like they would do apartment shells and just- Yeah

    [00:09:31] divvy it up and then sell them off with nothing in it. 

    [00:09:34] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:09:34] James: Um, but he was a master at working spaces and tight spaces, and then I just learnt heaps from him, being right next to him in his small practice, just how to make stuff work. 

    [00:09:46] Matt: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:09:47] James: And that's when I was like- 

    [00:09:47] Matt: Enough-ness. 

    [00:09:48] James: Yeah, yeah, and that's when I was like, "Okay, now I know what I want to do."

    [00:09:51] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:09:52] James: I just want my own little practice that I can just run like this. 

    [00:09:55] Matt: And you just pretty much went straight, straight into opening your own practice as Alter Eco? 

    [00:09:59] James: So I went to [00:10:00] architecture, did second and third year based on my experience, and then I was like, "I've got the itch now." I was, like, mid-20s Took off overseas Came back three years later.

    [00:10:11] Came back- 

    [00:10:12] Hamish: Where'd you go? Where'd you 

    [00:10:13] James: go? Uh, first stop was Canada, and that's where I met Claire. 

    [00:10:17] Hamish: I met my wife in Canada as well. 

    [00:10:20] James: In the snow? 

    [00:10:20] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:10:21] James: Yeah, same. Yeah. 

    [00:10:22] Hamish: Whereabouts? 

    [00:10:23] James: Fernie. 

    [00:10:23] Hamish: I was in Whistler. There you go. 

    [00:10:25] James: Yeah. That's where a lot of love starts. Cute. It's very cute, isn't it? Um, yeah, and then we traveled together and, uh, yeah, anyway, just, uh, didn't end up coming back here for a few years.

    [00:10:37] And then when I did, uh, I just landed on my feet, got some work. Went to Sydney for 18 months. So I just never went back and finished, uh, degree. And this is the 

    [00:10:44] Matt: first time Claire would've come here too? 

    [00:10:46] James: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So, and then it just started picking up little jobs, and I was doing them on the dining table to then quitting and just working on my 

    [00:10:56] Hamish: own.

    [00:10:56] Love it. Yeah. 

    [00:10:56] Matt: And was your original business Alter Eco Design? 

    [00:10:58] James: From the start. 

    [00:10:59] Matt: Oh. 100%. I [00:11:00] didn't know if you had, like, some weird name, like everyone starts out. You, you get stubby holders to start with too. So what's the- 

    [00:11:05] Hamish: It's like the first thing you get ... what's the, um, what's the idea about behind the name?

    [00:11:09] James: Well, it's a play on words- 

    [00:11:10] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:11:10] James: ob- obviously. 

    [00:11:11] Hamish: Yes. 

    [00:11:12] James: But there 

    [00:11:12] Matt: was- It's a chocolate company too. Yeah. 

    [00:11:15] James: I've looked it up. I'm pretty sure I beat them. Yeah. It's 'cause I've- I've been around a while, yeah ... amount, amount of 

    [00:11:18] Matt: times I've typed in your website, and it's chocolate, I was like, "Ooh, I would like some right now."

    [00:11:22] James: It is good chocolate, so yeah. Um- 

    [00:11:25] Hamish: Are you, do you have to say that legally now to keep the name? 

    [00:11:27] James: No, I wouldn't mind- ... uh, doing, doing some sort of kickback with them. 

    [00:11:31] Matt: Do a collaboration. 

    [00:11:32] James: Do a collab, yeah. Um- Look, it's like I wanted to be a, you know, sustainable designer at the time- Yep ... right? But having the conversation with clients at the time was not normal.

    [00:11:49] It was awkward. Mm. And it was, and it wasn't... And I guess sustainability to me at the time was probably a little bit more different, and it was me, like, loving building with natural [00:12:00] materials- Yep ... and working with timber and all that sort of stuff, that I was more focused on those things, if that makes sense.

    [00:12:07] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:12:07] James: But as it's evolved, it took time before I said, "Nah, this is just how I do it." 

    [00:12:11] Matt: That's a common story. Yeah. Yeah. I think most people, they s- when they get to sustainability, they say it, but we don't know what it means. We just, we all green wash to kinda get, where to where we wanna get to now. 

    [00:12:19] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:12:19] Matt: And I think what- Like, definitely that was our story

    [00:12:20] Hamish: I, I was 100% that's my story. It, you know, it wasn't until I met Sven and he goes, "Oh, you should look at, into Passive House." And I'm like- Mm ... "Okay, well now I've got something to kind of, I've got more of- Define it ... a north star- Mm ... that I can define my- Yeah ... the type of buildings on." And sustainability now has, like, it's become more than just building a Passive House.

    [00:12:40] Mm. It's then the choices around materiality and all that kind of stuff, so. Mm. Hey, Mattie, I've been talking to a few people recently, and they're like, "You know what? You've been building with Pro- Proclima for years. Like, how do we get to where you are?" 

    [00:12:52] Matt: So we all started at level zero at one point, and we got there.

    [00:12:55] But one of the things that Proclima have on their website is they have a library of so many [00:13:00] details, from wall to roof to subfloor to window assemblies, for multiple different windows, on how to use their product and install it correctly, and is one of the, the best resources that you can find online to learn how to do this.

    [00:13:12] And if you're an architect and you're not sure how to draw something, they've probably got the answer already. 

    [00:13:15] Hamish: And I think about, you know, 2018, 2019, when we f- we, we first started getting into this, we had to trawl through all kinds of different documents. We had to 

    [00:13:24] Matt: make it up. We, 

    [00:13:24] Hamish: well, we had to make it up.

    [00:13:27] It's all there for 

    [00:13:27] Matt: you. Yeah. The answers are free now. And social media's great, there's so many awesome videos and content out there, but the ultimate source of truth is the Proclima website. They have every single detail that you can imagine. And you know what? If they don't have it, you can email them and they'll help you solve it.

    [00:13:41] Hamish: Damn right. 

    [00:13:42] Matt: So use Proclima, proclima.com.au, if you need to reach out to them. 

    [00:13:46] Hamish: Hey, um, so we talk about good design, and- Yeah ... and good design, you know, just doesn't happen immediately. You don't just draw lines on paper and bang, there it is. Mm-hmm. What's your process? 'Cause I know it's not just, "Well, let's design something that looks [00:14:00] cool."

    [00:14:00] Mm-hmm. What is the process when someone first gets in contact with you, and then how do you end up with, like, a beautiful home like the one in Glenline? Mm. Like, what d- what does that journey look like? 

    [00:14:11] James: It's a long journey. 

    [00:14:11] Hamish: I know it's a long journey, I know. But try and keep it to about 15 or 20 minutes.

    [00:14:15] Nup, 

    [00:14:17] James: but apart from, like, um, I guess alignment- 

    [00:14:20] Hamish: Yep ... 

    [00:14:20] James: with, with those people- Yep ... is, is, is key. So Clare does a lot of work in the background to make sure that that- 

    [00:14:25] Hamish: Yep ... clearly- 

    [00:14:26] James: Clare's the brains ... yeah, she's the gatekeeper. 

    [00:14:29] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:14:29] James: Right? 

    [00:14:30] Hamish: I like that. 

    [00:14:31] James: Because, you know, we wanna enjoy the process as well. It's a long journey.

    [00:14:35] It's critical that we- Have, you know, a level of enjoyment with these people- Yeah ... on, a- along the way. You know? Everyone... There's different types of people, but I'm talking about n- we don't want to be stressed by, or in awkward situations from the start, um- 

    [00:14:49] Matt: And 'cause y- I'd say that you guys are very invested in the client.

    [00:14:52] Like, you take it- Oh, mate ... like, you guys take it very personally, each design, to a degree that I haven't seen before, and even with our own [00:15:00] house. So you, like, of the amount of times I've seen Claire Crowley get excited when they, the- gets to build. Like, she's so excited- Yeah, yeah ... for them. Yeah. Like, all your handover, and she's, like, got a tear.

    [00:15:09] Like, she- Yeah ... it's a, it's a genuine thing. You can't fake that. 

    [00:15:12] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:15:12] Matt: Um, and that, I still remember was at the first job I did with you when that was closed. Like, that's weird, and then I walked away. I was like, "No, no, no, that's why I like this." 

    [00:15:19] James: Yeah. She's good at celebrating the small moments. Yeah. Like this morning, an email came through.

    [00:15:24] Uh, the building surveyor said, "All right, we're going to the BPC for the building permit." 

    [00:15:28] Matt: Oh, 

    [00:15:30] James: dang. And I'm like, "Yes." But beforehand, I would've gone, "All right, sweet." 

    [00:15:33] Matt: Next one. 

    [00:15:33] James: File that one, you know? But, um, got to celebrate those small wins. 

    [00:15:37] Hamish: Definitely. Particularly now, so hard to get- Oh, very. ... things started.

    [00:15:40] Um- So, so there's, there's the alignment piece with clients, which- 100% ... I think is really valuable. 

    [00:15:44] James: Yeah, so let's say that alignment works and fees align and so forth, and, and that's all okay, and then we get to the point where we're like, "Okay, let's, let's, let's start," right? 

    [00:15:52] Matt: This is, like, the hardest part of Taite your job, though, this next step.

    [00:15:56] James: Look, it depends really about whether there's an alignment on [00:16:00] budget and brief first. And first- Is 

    [00:16:02] Matt: there ever? 

    [00:16:04] James: Yeah, some p- some are- 

    [00:16:05] Matt: It's getting better. 

    [00:16:07] James: It doesn't mean it's not hard. It's a conversation that needs to be had. And so sometimes my first workshop with them is literally around this alignment, and it can be a misalignment between them as a couple, if there's 

    [00:16:22] Matt: a couple.

    [00:16:22] Yeah. But you're, you're also very good at having that conversation and also not afraid to walk away at a job knowing what it's gonna end up being. You'll happily go, "No, no, no, I know you can't do that." 

    [00:16:32] James: Oh, yeah. 

    [00:16:32] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Like, I think that's one thing you're extremely good about is, um... And I would say probably the amount of times where you have heard of other jobs that went ahead with another architect, doesn't get built because the budget that it come in on was what you told them, and all of a sudden you knew they couldn't afford it.

    [00:16:47] James: Yeah. 

    [00:16:49] Hamish: And you would've- And 

    [00:16:49] Matt: a similar story with builders as well. Yeah. 

    [00:16:50] James: You'd be the same in- Yeah ... in that kind of sense. You're like, "Oh." 

    [00:16:53] Matt: Yeah. "

    [00:16:53] James: I don't 

    [00:16:53] Matt: want- Good luck ... 

    [00:16:54] James: that battle." Yeah. 

    [00:16:54] Matt: Yeah. If you're gonna go off on the, on that foot early. 

    [00:16:57] James: Yeah. 

    [00:16:57] Matt: So, so you... Yeah. So the, the question I've asked you [00:17:00] this many times is, like, client's given you a brief.

    [00:17:02] James: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:17:03] Matt: Like, you've got to put that pen to paper at some point. Mm-hmm. Like, what do you do? 

    [00:17:08] James: You 

    [00:17:08] Matt: got to- Like, where do you start? 

    [00:17:11] James: I don't even know how fucking, every site creates its own opportunities and constraints. Yeah. You need to really know those and have that in your head. Um- 

    [00:17:21] Hamish: What are some of the questions you ask your clients?

    [00:17:23] 'Cause I'm sure you've got like a, a, a form that, 

    [00:17:26] James: that- Yeah, it's a quite a form. Yeah. 

    [00:17:27] Matt: Can I, can I actually, can I actually answer this one for you, having filled it out before you? 

    [00:17:31] James: You've done 

    [00:17:32] Matt: it. So, yeah, I've done it. So it was a Google form, and I remember going to Nicole, like, "Why the fuck are we doing this?"

    [00:17:39] And I was seriously like, "Why do they wanna know how we sleep?" And then it all started to make sense when you're handing that first piece of paper because you had just extracted, and we're talking about systems a lot at the moment. Yeah. They had extracted every little piece of information out of Nicole and I that I wouldn't even have thought was relevant.

    [00:17:57] Give me, give me some more 

    [00:17:57] Hamish: examples. So how you sleep. 

    [00:17:58] Matt: How you sleep. You may just do a [00:18:00] sleep study or survey. So, yeah, like if you're- Sleep survey ... if, 

    [00:18:01] James: if you're a bear or a lion or- 

    [00:18:03] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:18:03] James: That's it. That's right ... you know the, you know the different- No. So, okay. So there's, there's different types of, like your, um- Just y- you as a person, your, your body clock- Yeah

    [00:18:14] may work differently from your partner's Yeah, definitely. And so you'll be out of sync with how you sleep. Yeah. One goes to bed later- Yeah ... sleeps in more, whatever. And now I find that good information because if you've got someone that's getting up a couple of hours before someone else, then where the ensuite is and how that works is- Yeah

    [00:18:31] probably pretty important. Yeah. And how the lights come on when the robes- 

    [00:18:34] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:18:34] Matt: yeah, yeah ... are put 

    [00:18:35] James: away. Yeah, don't put the bed 

    [00:18:35] Matt: next to the coffee machine. 

    [00:18:37] James: All these kind of things, like right- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that's, they're cues. Yeah, yeah. If that makes sense. 

    [00:18:40] Matt: And, and, and you're not going to be able to, you're not able to capture everything, like of all the- 

    [00:18:44] James: No, but it's also good conversations to work out what to weight with them and not how much not.

    [00:18:47] Matt: It, it, it honestly, I was... What, so what it's in turn done, say four or five years down the track, is I don't question design choices anymore because I don't know the reason behind why something is there in a certain place. [00:19:00] 

    [00:19:00] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:19:00] Matt: Because o- originally we're like, "That's stupid. Why would you have the ensuite there?"

    [00:19:03] I don't know- 

    [00:19:04] Hamish: Mm ... 

    [00:19:05] Matt: why. There might be a reason why. 

    [00:19:07] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:19:08] Matt: As a builder, I think that's something I've taken away of having built my own house, and I've learned that there's, there's usually a reason why behind most design considerations- Yeah ... or, or choices. 

    [00:19:16] Hamish: Which is where, which is why good design and to get it right is really hard.

    [00:19:19] Matt: Yeah. And I think that's where builders go, and I'll ask the question J- to James later on, but I think that's one of the biggest thing the builders do wrong is they substitute or change things within the design. It's not our responsibility to do that. 

    [00:19:29] Hamish: No. 

    [00:19:30] Matt: Um- Mm ... and like the, you asked, like it was questions like, "How do you get around?

    [00:19:34] Do you ride a bike? Do you go surfing? What, what sports do you play? What are your hobbies?" Because there's obviously- Who, who 

    [00:19:39] Hamish: does the cooking- 

    [00:19:40] Matt: Yeah. How do you cook ... and what, what those kind of 

    [00:19:41] Hamish: roles you 

    [00:19:42] Matt: t- yeah. What do you cook? Mm. Like, 'cause it, it ends up coming out in the whole conversation of like, well, I can only assume if I have a bike, a surfboard, and um, like where do I store it?

    [00:19:50] How do I use it? Yeah. Your 

    [00:19:51] Hamish: stuff. 

    [00:19:51] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Like your stuff. And um- 

    [00:19:54] Hamish: Yeah, so all, all of that information's been gathered even before you've even drawn anything on the page. 

    [00:19:59] James: Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:00] 

    [00:20:00] Matt: And it was, it was insane. 

    [00:20:01] James: But it's not necessarily in a format that puts itself on paper, but it creates other conversations- Yeah

    [00:20:06] to understand hierarchy and the importance- Yeah ... of these things. 

    [00:20:09] Matt: But you ref- we referred back to it, I think, during our design multiple times. It does 

    [00:20:13] James: help. 

    [00:20:13] Matt: Yeah. Like we, Nicole and I were like, "Oh, what did we tell them? Oh yeah, we actually told them that." Mm. Like you don't, you, 'cause you forget what you've told them- Mm

    [00:20:20] 'cause you're filling it out and you're talking and, and then you'll be like, "Why did we ask that? Why is that there?" And like go, "Hmm, I don't think we had that." And you're like, "Oh no, that's exactly what we told them to do." 

    [00:20:28] Hamish: Yeah. Mm. Awesome. And does it feel, like for someone who's gone through that process, Matt, and now living in the home, like does it feel like that was all relevant and that was worthwhile going through that process?

    [00:20:40] Matt: Oh, it, it's sort of hard to comment because like what if it didn't? Like th- think of the opposite side, so it just feels home to me. '

    [00:20:47] Hamish: Cause I, I, I've, I've been in your home. Um, I think I might've seen it on a, was it on a TV show? 

    [00:20:52] Matt: Yeah. I don't know if you've seen the TV show. No, okay. What TV show was it? I think it might have been a TV show.

    [00:20:55] Hamish: Um, I just remember it being quite warm and it was cold outside. 

    [00:20:58] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:20:58] Hamish: Don't know how. So yeah, 

    [00:20:59] Matt: it actually was [00:21:00] freezing the day you came 

    [00:21:00] Hamish: over. Yeah, it was. But- But like if, if, it, there's a lot, I walk into that home and I'm like, "Okay, this makes sense." Like, you know when you walk into somewhere and design just makes sense?

    [00:21:08] Like, I understand why that's there. Might not be how I would want it, but I can see how these guys are living and moving through 

    [00:21:13] Matt: their house. We also had so, so many constraints with my house. Mm. Like it was bu- building on three boundaries. 

    [00:21:18] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:21:18] Matt: So there's not, there's not much you can do. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    [00:21:21] But it, it, it just, it, it, it was, it was almost like if you really want to... I feel like I'm a better builder having gone through a whole design process myself from start to finish to understand how we get there. Like- Yeah ... I understand the process. And, and my question to James later on will be like, who, what is everyone's responsibilities in this pre-construction phase?

    [00:21:40] Mm. Because I feel like from doing that myself, I've got a, a behind-the-scenes view of like how it, how it works. 

    [00:21:46] Hamish: Yep. Mm. So then if, if we're sort of fast-forwarding through that stuff, like at what point do you st- and what information do you have before you start sketching? Like, you know, do you understand their level of 

    [00:21:54] James: performance?

    [00:21:55] Oh, due diligence is key, right? Yeah. So obviously survey. 

    [00:21:59] Matt: Are the clients 

    [00:21:59] Hamish: fuckwits? Yeah. Like, 

    [00:21:59] James: [00:22:00] you know- 

    [00:22:00] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:22:00] James: property civil plan. 

    [00:22:01] Hamish: You've already, you've already, the alignment piece is done by Claire before you. 

    [00:22:03] James: Easements and all those, all those kind of things. They all have to be known and understood, right?

    [00:22:07] Yeah. Um, yeah, so- 

    [00:22:10] Matt: Oh, so many people don't, though. 

    [00:22:12] James: Really? 

    [00:22:12] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I know one story right now, and there's a combined drain, and I know, I know I shouldn't know this, because I was told, and I'll s- I'm not going to say who it was. 

    [00:22:21] James: Oh, jeez, go on. 

    [00:22:22] Matt: The architect, there's a combined drain. They're building over it, and it's been raised by the client.

    [00:22:28] It's not one of your jobs, not one of my jobs actually either, and the architect goes, "That's not our problem. That's a builder's problem when they get on site." 

    [00:22:33] James: Oof. Oh, my God. I've suspended a deck over a combined drain before, but even that was a process. 

    [00:22:40] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they just like, "It's the builder's site, builder's job when they get on site to work that out."

    [00:22:44] Whoa. That was literally their words. 

    [00:22:46] Hamish: If you're a builder out there, if you're not doing your own site inspections and cameraing the drains, you are a fucking moron. 

    [00:22:51] Matt: Yeah, but it, but this, this is even before like, they had the, the fact that they know about it- Yeah, no, it's fucked if 

    [00:22:58] James: you're a designer out there and 

    [00:22:59] Matt: you're not look- [00:23:00] Yeah, they, yeah, like-

    [00:23:00] looking 

    [00:23:01] James: into that. 

    [00:23:01] Matt: Yeah, yeah. That's their problems later on. It's, 

    [00:23:03] James: it's creating... Don't kick those cans down the road, right? 

    [00:23:06] Hamish: Absolutely not. We, we, we, uh, uh, digressing slightly, we- 

    [00:23:09] Matt: You're really good at not that, that, at that skill. It's like- Mm ... let's do that conversation now. I'd say this, you say that, and now knowing you for so long, I'd say it's one of your best traits, just like, "Let's deal with that now.

    [00:23:19] Let's don't kick it down the road later." Yeah. 

    [00:23:20] James: I think that's probably through this journey- 

    [00:23:23] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:23:23] James: yeah, yeah Looking at where the risk is on that particular project. And so, yeah, a lot of clients, it's the brief and budget alignment, but you might be in a heritage overlay or something like that. Mm. And, um, they're risks, right, that, that, that we need to mitigate.

    [00:23:40] And it's like when are we dealing with which risk- 

    [00:23:42] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:23:43] James: in what order, or when in the process does it filter in? Um, yeah, I think they're all- Yeah ... all really important. 

    [00:23:50] Hamish: Yeah. So- So there's all this due diligent piece that you go through, and then, um, and then you start designing and you've got a number, and then you hit it out of the park the first time?

    [00:23:59] Matt: Oh, [00:24:00] every time. 

    [00:24:01] Hamish: From a budget first design point of view? 

    [00:24:04] James: Probably not, because my ethos is to progressively keep developing the design. 

    [00:24:10] Hamish: Yes. 

    [00:24:11] James: Right? So if I feel like I'm hitting a risky point, and I don't understand about the pricing part of, "Ah, shit, I've got all these retaining walls and cart-" Yeah ... "all right, we need a builder now."

    [00:24:21] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:24:21] James: Okay? Yeah. And e- and that's even in sketch stage. Yeah. If, if, if I feel a lack of know- like I'm pretty good with my knowledge and stuff, but I don't know how to price it. 

    [00:24:29] Matt: You know what you don't know. 

    [00:24:31] James: Yeah. 

    [00:24:31] Matt: Mm. 

    [00:24:31] James: So it's time to get someone in who does, right? Yeah. 'Cause I have no idea what the implications of this cut is in this soil type when the drainage is down there and- 

    [00:24:41] Hamish: Yeah

    [00:24:41] James: w- what, what are we budgeting here? Yeah. 200 grand for this job? 

    [00:24:44] Hamish: Or, or, or, you know, we've got some slight fall here. Is it a slab on ground or do we put it on s- stumps and bearers? Mm-hmm. Like there's all these- Mm-hmm ... kinds of things that probably need to have a bit of a builder's brain. 

    [00:24:54] James: Yeah. Yeah. And the pros and cons of either- Yeah

    [00:24:58] pathway, if that makes sense. Yeah. [00:25:00] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, there is sometimes it's time to get a builder involved 

    [00:25:05] Matt: in that sketch. And, and at this point- I'd say all the time ... and, and I say at this, at this point though, have you given the, the client two or three concepts of what their house might look like?

    [00:25:14] James: Yes. In a, in a way. It might be variants of the same thing- Yeah ... if that makes sense, within those constraints. 

    [00:25:21] Matt: Yeah 

    [00:25:21] James: Um- '

    [00:25:22] Matt: Cause I think I remember you showing us a few concepts. The reason why I ask this question is 'cause I'm trying to spell out to builders and try give them an hour of learning that how you will think through for where it starts to, to...

    [00:25:34] When they get the plan. Yeah. So the client's usually f- you've sh- you've designed three or four designs, roughly by hand sketch, that will work on their property for orientation, for performance, of what you know best. Mm-hmm. No form or anything probably yet- Mm-hmm ... as a floor plan, and then the client will go, "Ooh, we like that layout the most," or, "We like the combination of these two, let's kind of combine it."

    [00:25:53] I 

    [00:25:53] James: like to be as loose- 

    [00:25:54] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:25:55] James: as i- initially. Yeah, like very- Like and I like to actually have tracing paper with them to- 

    [00:25:59] Matt: [00:26:00] Yeah, yeah ... to actually- I remember that, yeah 

    [00:26:01] James: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:26:01] Matt: And you remember you gave, you gave us some tracing paper. Yeah, so you like to be, like, quite, like, quite fluid at that point. 

    [00:26:06] James: Yeah, it has to be.

    [00:26:06] Yeah. Yeah. And then as, as some of those elements are locked in, then the other things can be worked around that, if that, if that makes sense. 

    [00:26:16] Matt: It's probably the most fun part of the whole design. I actually enjoyed that part the most. Mm. It's actually kind of cool. The floor plan? Yeah, 'cause you kind of, you start with something, and I still remember this to this day, is like we both would have a very good idea of what a floor plan would look like, would feel like, and- Mm-hmm

    [00:26:29] and I remember giving it to James and going, "This is what we've come up with." I don't know if even you remember this. And it w- and you go, "Yeah, it's pretty good." And then about two weeks later he shows me, "Here you go. He's let me do my fucking job." 

    [00:26:40] Hamish: Do you know, so I've only ever done it once on a smaller project, um, extension work.

    [00:26:45] It was so 

    [00:26:45] Matt: much better than what we came up with too, 

    [00:26:47] Hamish: by the way. Well, I had an idea. I went to Sven from AXA and I said- Mm ... "Oh, this is what I'm thinking." He's like, "Oh, that's cute." And then next minute he's like, "This is what we're gonna do." Yeah. And I'm just like, "Okay, I'll let you do your job now." Yeah. "I'll just shut up."

    [00:26:57] Matt: And that's, but everything that, everything that he had drawn and taken [00:27:00] into account in that brief, it just made sense somehow. Yeah. Yeah. But it 

    [00:27:03] James: can be a client's way of communicating their brief. 

    [00:27:06] Hamish: Yeah, true. If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And- So you could still have the sum of the parts- Yeah ... but it's just reconfigurated 

    [00:27:12] James: again.

    [00:27:12] And the con- critiquing goes both ways. 

    [00:27:14] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:27:14] James: If that makes sense. Yeah. Like I would prefer not to see someone's plan so I can add about it myself. 

    [00:27:19] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:27:19] James: But if somebody does bring that, I'm more so looking at it as to what it is that they're actually trying to communicate to me- 

    [00:27:26] Matt: Yeah, like, "Oh, we want three bedrooms" and they kind of want them all together maybe or like- 

    [00:27:31] James: Exactly.

    [00:27:32] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:27:32] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, when clients, you know, if they're coming to me first and they go, "I've got a floor plan, do you want me to send it over?" I'm like, "That's really great that you're really thinking about that now- Mm-hmm ... but let's let the design team do their job." Hmm. Yeah. Because I don't wanna start leading you down a path that- Mm-hmm

    [00:27:46] may or may not work. That's not my job. Mm-hmm. That's not my role. That's the design team's role. 

    [00:27:50] James: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:27:51] Matt: So then what? So you- 

    [00:27:52] James: Oh, we're back into... Are we going back into pre-con bit or- 

    [00:27:54] Matt: No, no, but this, this, yeah, yeah. So you- We're going more deeper. Pre-con ... but I just wanted to give context on how you get to that part with the builder.

    [00:27:58] You s- you [00:28:00] interview a few builders, client picks the builder. 

    [00:28:02] James: Yep. 

    [00:28:02] Matt: So I just want to give the context behind how you got there, 'cause I think it's really important that we as builders know the effort that has gone i- to that point right there. 

    [00:28:10] James: Yeah. So we'll put some builders forward that we think- Yeah, yeah

    [00:28:12] you sh- they should chat with. 

    [00:28:13] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:28:13] James: Right? And then, um, normally they'll take that advice and we encourage them to choose one. 

    [00:28:19] Matt: What happens if they don't? I've never... I see this one. 

    [00:28:21] James: Um- 

    [00:28:22] Matt: They just go, "I've got this, I've got John from around the corner." Are you like, "Oh, fuck"? 

    [00:28:25] James: Well, then l- let's chat with John, that's fine.

    [00:28:27] Yeah. But I, w- then I really encourage that we chat with these other two over here- 

    [00:28:31] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:28:32] James: or three or whatever, 'cause I just want 

    [00:28:33] Hamish: you to- Carlin, Carlin and Sanko. 

    [00:28:34] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, we wanna know what that's like, what good might look like. 

    [00:28:38] James: Yeah, but it's just all so different. Yeah. And the way they would approach it might be different- 

    [00:28:43] Matt: Yeah

    [00:28:43] James: if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I don't mind it being broadened. I don't mind it being someone I don't know. Like, I- Yeah. Yeah, 

    [00:28:47] Hamish: yeah. There is, there is a, there is... Not every builder is right for every job. 

    [00:28:53] James: No, no. No, no. Absolutely not. 

    [00:28:54] Hamish: Like, I'd, I'd... Someone inquire the other day about a inner-city one in North Melbourne, and they're asking me a [00:29:00] question.

    [00:29:00] I'm like, "I'm gonna tell you what, it's North Melbourne or Port Melbourne. Matt Carlin is much better set up for this." So they may reach out to you, by the way. Um, I just looked and I'm like, "I don't want, I don't want to touch that." Mm. "It's not... I'm not geared for that project." 

    [00:29:11] Matt: Yeah, yeah. But it's, I think it...

    [00:29:13] But it's not even just the location. Like, sometimes we'll look at a project and go, "I just know that..." Like Brad's one, for example, like, uh, that he's got right now. Oh, yeah. It's the amount of detail and time that one person needs. Like, "I can't give you that." Hmm. "My business is not set up for you to do that and it's gonna cost you a fortune."

    [00:29:28] Brad is- 

    [00:29:28] James: We're the same. We have to be able to say no. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we, we had a passive house inquiry recently and I was like, "Oh, cool. Passive house." And then, uh, "We're really keen on, uh, a mock Federation facade." Hmm. 

    [00:29:40] Hamish: I'm 

    [00:29:41] James: like, "Oh, okay, 

    [00:29:41] Hamish: yeah." Yeah. "

    [00:29:42] James: I don't want to deal with that." Yeah. It's like, I don't believe in it, right?

    [00:29:46] You have to get proportion and materials and everything right. And then, and 

    [00:29:51] Matt: then it's just- Federation. Why, why, why a Federation- 

    [00:29:53] James: I didn't need them. They, they- Didn't need that farm ... 

    [00:29:55] Hamish: it's what they wanna 

    [00:29:55] James: do. But it's just like the, you, you need to be able to say no as well, what, for what- Yeah, yeah, yeah

    [00:29:59] doesn't work- Okay ... or [00:30:00] what's gonna be painful. Yeah. 

    [00:30:01] Hamish: Yeah. Yep. So- So it's qu- it's quite a lengthy process, even before you... I mean, we haven't even gotten to, like, actually starting to design yet. Mm. That, um, this is probably a question that I'm interested in. Once you've got a floor plan, as you're designing a floor plan, and you're kind of dialling that in, and I'm, you know, it's obvious that you're designing for orientation and performance at the same time.

    [00:30:21] Mm. As you're designing it, are you, in your mind's eye, seeing how, like, the actual 3D form is coming together? Mm-hmm. 

    [00:30:28] James: Totally. 

    [00:30:29] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So as you're, as you've got a floor plan, you're actually sort of seeing, okay, well, that's gonna be a bit of higher wall, and there's some angles in the roof and stuff like that.

    [00:30:35] Yeah. Yep. Okay. 

    [00:30:36] James: Yeah. 

    [00:30:37] Hamish: And has that always been something you've been quite good at? Or, or is it a, is it constantly evolving, that kind of style? 'Cause if I look at your homes, I feel like- Mm ... it's got your style. 

    [00:30:47] James: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:30:48] Hamish: Um, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm like, "Oh, that's an Alter Eco home." 

    [00:30:51] James: Yeah.

    [00:30:51] It's interesting. We're doing a, I'm doing a design at the moment, and it- 

    [00:30:55] Matt: Federation 

    [00:30:55] James: house? Yeah. Totally. Victorian actually. You can't, you can't really get an [00:31:00] angle at it. Like, it's a period building at the front. It's a, it's a, it's a terrace. And then at the back there's, it goes right through to the back street, and there's, like, a- 

    [00:31:10] Matt: That's the one you were doing on social media last night.

    [00:31:11] James: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like a studio over the back, over the garage at the back. But the actual house proper, you'll never get an angle at it. So I'm like, "What am I gonna make this look like?" It's kind of irrelevant. But it's all about the space, and what is it feeling like from the inside itself, so that- Yeah, okay

    [00:31:26] I'm not being l- I'm not being led by what this looks like for someone from the street. 

    [00:31:30] Hamish: Yeah, okay. '

    [00:31:30] James: Cause it's not relevant. Like, it's- 

    [00:31:33] Matt: It may be the back- It's different ... facade a little bit, but, like, ultimately- Yeah ... it's like, well, if we do that on that wall, what implications does it have with the height and the ceiling space, and- 

    [00:31:39] Hamish: It becomes a really good interiors project for 

    [00:31:41] Matt: you guys.

    [00:31:41] Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:31:41] James: Yeah, that's right. I'm setting it up for the interior designer. Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:31:44] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:31:45] Matt: So, so we then... So okay, so builder gets involved. You're very, you've done that since I've ever known you. 

    [00:31:49] James: Yeah. 

    [00:31:50] Matt: Like, before this was cool. Yeah. Um, where do you think the- That's why I 

    [00:31:54] Hamish: reached out to you the first 

    [00:31:55] Matt: time, actually.

    [00:31:55] Like, where, where, where do you think builders go wrong with this process? 

    [00:31:59] Hamish: Oh, that's [00:32:00] a good question. 

    [00:32:01] James: Um- '

    [00:32:02] Matt: Cause you work with a lot of different builders that do things a very different way, and then you might get comfortable with, say, how I do something. You know, a lot of projects- Mm-hmm ... with Ned, you might get comfortable with how he does it.

    [00:32:10] Mm-hmm. And we also operate very similar. Mm-hmm. Like, where do we all go wrong? 

    [00:32:15] James: It's not where you all go wrong, it's about pointing out some of the things that some do well. 

    [00:32:20] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:32:21] James: And it re- uh... okay, I'll start with where do they come into the project- Yeah ... and how broad is this figure to help us make the next decision- Yeah

    [00:32:30] if, if that makes sense. 

    [00:32:31] Hamish: You're talking about the range, the number that we're... 

    [00:32:34] James: Okay, so let's say we're, we're building a team, right? 

    [00:32:36] Hamish: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:32:36] James: The three most important people in this are the people paying the money. Mm-hmm. It's their house, right? Yeah. Mm. A builder to build it, and a designer- 

    [00:32:43] Matt: Yeah ... 

    [00:32:43] James: to design it.

    [00:32:44] Or actually, can, can I just define what the designer does? Sure. '

    [00:32:49] Matt: Cause some people- Are we, are we talking about, are we gonna talk about roles and responsibilities? Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah, let's jump to it 'cause that's my second question. 

    [00:32:54] Hamish: Let him, let him, let him answer his question. 

    [00:32:56] James: Well, it's, it's sort of like setting this up.

    [00:32:57] Yeah. Right? So we're not only just [00:33:00] designing it, we're being engaged as the lead consultant. 

    [00:33:03] Matt: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:33:03] James: Right? I'm only a building designer. I could just be engaged as a draftee. Mm-hmm. "Here's your plan, catch you later." Yeah. But it's not how I run my business. Yeah. Like, we are here to lead the client on the journey through the project- Yeah

    [00:33:15] if that makes sense. Um, so in then once we, you know, get the third leg to the, to the, to the stool- Yeah ... get the builder involved and we're all right. Okay, what are the roles and responsibilities here? Um, I think- When setting objectives, I guess for each of the parties, we all want a successful project, right?

    [00:33:37] And a successful project for the client is what they- Yeah ... looking at the end. I think I've heard you on the podcast before, Hamish, say, you know, a builder needs to be financially successful. 

    [00:33:46] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:33:47] James: Um, and then they're also looking for, you know, the next referral and so forth. 

    [00:33:52] Matt: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:33:55] James: An architect or a building designer also needs to be financially [00:34:00] successful.

    [00:34:00] Yeah, there's 

    [00:34:00] Matt: actually no different, yeah. 

    [00:34:01] James: Um, and that is a difficult thing in, in, in practice these days. Like, I don't know if you know much about what- 

    [00:34:12] Matt: I've openly told you- A bit ... you guys don't charge enough. 

    [00:34:15] James: Yeah, I guess. 

    [00:34:16] Matt: Everyone doesn't. 

    [00:34:17] James: Yeah. And I know our fees aren't cheap. Like, you know, we're, we, we've got fees like a- an architect would, but we have an extensive process that we go through- Yeah

    [00:34:25] from start to finish, if that makes sense. There's 

    [00:34:27] Matt: also so much work now. And to give context to that, there is so much red tape and work that needs to be done because of that. Yeah. Like- 

    [00:34:33] James: We haven't loaded all of 

    [00:34:33] Matt: that ourselves ... yeah, yeah. It, it's just because everything takes so much fucking time. Yeah.

    [00:34:37] Like, your standard probably muscle memory response is like, how long is it gonna take before on site? Oh, it's 12 months if you're not going to council, it's anywhere above 18 months- Yeah ... if you've got council involved. 

    [00:34:48] James: Yeah. 

    [00:34:49] Matt: And, and that, that is ridiculous. Yeah. You c- if you would have a free flowing process- 

    [00:34:54] James: Yeah

    [00:34:54] Matt: you could smash that time. 

    [00:34:56] James: Yeah. But I think, you know, yeah- 

    [00:34:57] Matt: Also rely on clients to get back to you at the right time too. 

    [00:34:59] James: Yeah. [00:35:00] Like a business like ours would be targeting 15% profit, you know? But we don't have the turnover that a builder does either. Yeah. And to miss that mark is very easy to do. 

    [00:35:11] Hamish: Yeah.

    [00:35:12] James: Yeah. Anyway, digressing a little bit- Yeah ... but we want to be successful- 

    [00:35:15] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:35:15] James: financially. Um, but we also really want to be, uh, like enjoy the journey with the client and builder, and then also just to see that lived experience at the end- Mm ... like we're seeing now- Yeah ... in, in Lyonville. And when you see, and when you bump into those old clients or catch up with them- Yeah

    [00:35:35] or hear stories, that's brilliant. Like that's, that's, that's gold. Do you know what I mean? We don't, we can't... I guess we're not- changing the industry. Like, I've, I've sort of reduced my goals and ambitions, if you know what I mean? Yeah. And moderated how many projects I can do and how many people I can impact.

    [00:35:52] But, um, yeah, there, there are benefits that are- Just do 

    [00:35:55] Matt: better. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, within, with what we can do. 

    [00:35:57] James: Yeah, absolutely. 

    [00:35:58] Matt: Hey, I'm about to go [00:36:00] on a journey with systems and I'm working with James from BizTech Guru, who, he was a guest on our podcast. 

    [00:36:05] Hamish: He was, and I've actually done a lot of work with James in the past, and it has transformed my business from just being this classic clusterfuck of a building company to a systems-orientated focused business.

    [00:36:17] Matt: And what is, from my understanding, it's all focused on builders, and- Yep ... we're going to be doing a live webinar with him coming up- Yep ... as part of this, and it's gonna be a big introduction to systems and how it can improve your business. 

    [00:36:29] Hamish: And you know the beauty about it? It is gonna be absolutely free.

    [00:36:31] Yeah. So keep an eye out for the dates. Uh, this is gonna be a really incredibly valuable workshop to not miss out on. 

    [00:36:39] Matt: Yeah. So either shoot us a DM, um, check the show notes, but we'll put a link below here to show you how to sign up. So- Cheers ... make sure you sign up Go back to the question. What do builders do wrong?

    [00:36:53] James: Okay. I think- 

    [00:36:55] Matt: And you be brutally honest. 

    [00:36:56] James: Yeah, I will. So I think it's very difficult for [00:37:00] a builder to... Let's just say we're talking about... I, I go through this in three stages. We're, we're budgeting. 

    [00:37:07] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:37:08] James: We're estimating, and then we're looking at a contract, right? And so when we're just in that budgeting phase, it's broad, but we need to know where our risks and so forth are.

    [00:37:18] Yeah. And, and, and we're, all we're really trying to do is give the client enough evidence to commit to more design and more evolution and more investigation from a builder to get to the next point where we have an estimate. 

    [00:37:33] Matt: And 

    [00:37:34] James: that's- 

    [00:37:34] Matt: With- ... where we're at with, uh, the two projects are past that point now.

    [00:37:38] James: Yeah. Yeah. But l- but reflecting on that and going through that process. Yep. And so once we get into the estimate part, I like to see the estimate look like a format that's similar to what the tender would be like. 

    [00:37:52] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:37:53] James: And the reason for that is I find that when all of those categories aren't considered in some way, some of them [00:38:00] get forgotten.

    [00:38:01] Matt: So this is a question- And that makes sense ... we actually asked Rick from Estimating Online, then your final contract price, should we have that or should, should it just be this is 1.52 as per plan? Like, do you, at that final price- Mm-hmm ... sh- do we need to give you the categories or should it be simple as like, this is a number as per plan, as per spec, everything included?

    [00:38:21] James: Yeah, I think that'd be okay. 'Cause I think all the, a lot of the work- Yeah ... is going in in the estimate stage. Yeah. 

    [00:38:25] Hamish: Do you know what? I actually love that you've just said that. Yeah. And because you have not, you don't ha- you know, you're not privileged to that last conversation we just had in here. Yeah.

    [00:38:32] And what you've just said is almost identical- As in- ... to the process that Rick was saying and the process that we do It's 

    [00:38:37] Matt: like the perfect follow on without you knowing- ... of what we just spoke about. Yeah. It just like, literally is like, pew, you've just taken everything you heard and gone... 

    [00:38:44] Hamish: It's just reiterated 

    [00:38:46] James: it.

    [00:38:46] We, we, we need- Which, which is great ... when it gets to the point of the contract, that's the most stressful point for a client. The noise needs to be taken away. And so having 54 page bullet points of all these different inclusions and blah, blah, blah- Agree. 

    [00:38:57] Hamish: I agree ... 

    [00:38:58] James: is not necessary. They need to know what's [00:39:00] not in it.

    [00:39:00] Matt: Yep. Yeah. 

    [00:39:01] James: That needs to be really clear. 

    [00:39:02] Hamish: And provisional sums and prime cost costs need to be listed out. Oh, absolutely. 

    [00:39:05] James: Yeah. 

    [00:39:05] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:39:06] Matt: And you can't, I've learnt one thing is you can't be trying to still do value management o- once you're doing the contract. You can't be doing two at once. Agree. I, I think that's probably a mistake I've made, is like you're still trying to tie up little loose ends.

    [00:39:15] It's like, "Hey, let's start s- the contract as well." No. Our, no- Yeah ... our new process is, until you practically, you almost sign like a pre-contractual agreement- Mm ... that is the number. 

    [00:39:25] James: Yep. 

    [00:39:25] Matt: Now we will start the contract. There's no point sending a draft contract, 'cause they're getting distracted. 

    [00:39:29] James: Yeah. Mm. 

    [00:39:30] Matt: And they say- Just 

    [00:39:30] James: been through that process where the client wants to get budget out, but they're not giving us a fixed target to get it to.

    [00:39:37] Matt: Yeah. The goalpost. No, no. And 

    [00:39:38] James: so- 

    [00:39:38] Hamish: You know, if you're a client and you want- ... the value management stuff, we need a number. Like, it's not just, "Oh, we need to take it down." Yeah. It's like, we need a number and what are the things that we can't touch? 

    [00:39:48] Matt: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:39:48] Hamish: Like- 

    [00:39:49] Matt: Yeah, yeah. A bit of- Oh, I don't know, just give us something.

    [00:39:51] A- 

    [00:39:51] Hamish: No, no, no, no, no. True. No. Okay, great. We'll take the kitchen out. 

    [00:39:55] James: Yeah. And I think- '

    [00:39:55] Hamish: Cause there's 50 grand. Done. 

    [00:39:57] James: I think that- Oh, well, we need the 

    [00:39:58] Matt: kitchen ... 

    [00:39:58] Hamish: well, okay, well, we'll leave the kitchen in. [00:40:00] 

    [00:40:01] James: Kitchen. Yeah, I reckon the- 

    [00:40:03] Hamish: Take the flooring out. There's 70 

    [00:40:06] James: grand Take the whole house out ... the detailing in there, okay, the process through this, I think you're right.

    [00:40:10] Mm. We need to be really clear about moving through particular stages. 'Cause- Once all of the estimating part's done and the, the eff- effectively this is in, this is out and the, w- we know what we're getting, we need a clear shift where you're moving towards getting your contract together- Yeah ... and we're mo- facilitating the building permit.

    [00:40:35] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:40:35] James: And all the last final- 

    [00:40:37] Matt: Yeah, so- ... bits and pieces for that ... so for me, I like the process now. It's like pro- like all documentation is completed, that means we can do all our pricing and finalised. "Hey, we wanna change one, two, three, three." Okay, RFI list. James changes all his documentation. We fix the pricing.

    [00:40:53] "Oh, we want to change two items." James finishes all, like you... Until it's like literally all done, 'cause it's... Otherwise, what happens, everything gets [00:41:00] lost along the way, and it's annoying for everyone to slow it down, but things 

    [00:41:04] Hamish: get lost. There's a s- there's a part of me that agrees and there's a part of me that disagrees, because I've been on the other end of it- You're trying to go on site

    [00:41:09] where, where, where, where, where we're trying to dial everything in and I'm like, you know what? Let's just flag that, get a contract signed, and set up... W- we know that these things in the contract need to be updated or sorry, the plans need to be updated. Let's sign a contract now. Let's list all the things that we know are gonna change, and these are just, you know- Within-

    [00:41:29] half 

    [00:41:29] Matt: a dozen ... w- within, within a, within reason. If, so they, they- But, 

    [00:41:32] Hamish: but they're not gonna change the price or the- They 

    [00:41:34] Matt: have to become a provisional sum or price item ... 

    [00:41:35] Hamish: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And they get reconciled at a point that you agree on. Yeah. A base stage or frame stage or whatever. If, if 

    [00:41:40] James: you're comfortable communicating with the client that they're not influencing the price.

    [00:41:44] Hamish: Correct. Yeah. That makes- And that's, and that's the, that's the biggest point I'm trying to make. Yeah. Like, if we know that they're gonna change the price, well, it's gotta be updated- Yeah ... and we need to cost it. '

    [00:41:53] Matt: Cause I just want that, I just want that contract dot set, that is matches everything. The specs all match.

    [00:41:58] Everything is aligned. It's not something like, "Oh, [00:42:00] we've changed this tile or this tile," and kind of gets forgot along the way and then we're going to order and like, what do we actually do? Like- Yeah ... I want it all completely tied off so the contract becomes the Bible for us. Yeah. You know that what you have designed is what we've allowed for.

    [00:42:12] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:42:12] Matt: There's that three-way stool, stool, you haven't got an uneven leg is- Yeah ... like you're not, "Oh, what's happening here?" Yeah. The clients to know exactly what they're getting for what they're paying, and then anything from that point then black and white, that's not like, there's no, "Oh, I thought we were getting this."

    [00:42:26] It's like, well, where in this documentation set did you think you were getting that? 

    [00:42:29] James: I think if we go back to that estimating process, and you've got all the breakdowns- Yeah ... and you might have provisionals in 'cause you've got limited interiors info or engineering back or whatever and, and so to get to the confident figure, work needs to be done.

    [00:42:45] Yeah. Yeah. If that makes sense. Um, and so while that work's happening, we might be then tracking to understand are we cl- near budget or not? 

    [00:42:53] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:42:54] James: And then, so I think, um, the further this estimate is [00:43:00] out from the actual build- The more fluid it's going to be- Yeah ... or the more risk that's involved. Yeah. And I think there's two numbers that I think are in- important that not a lot of people talk about, and that's contingency- 

    [00:43:12] Hamish: Mm

    [00:43:12] James: and inflation. 

    [00:43:13] Hamish: Yep. Mm. 

    [00:43:14] James: And they're two different numbers. Yeah. And I want them as two line items because we can have a conversation about, "I have no interiors," or, "I have no engineering," that contingency's gonna be a bit higher. Do I have to- So 

    [00:43:26] Hamish: when, so when you say contingency, are you having that conversation with the client or with the builder?

    [00:43:29] James: The three of us. 

    [00:43:30] Hamish: Okay. So as a builder estimating in that, um, middle stage where we're giving them much more detail, we might put a line in that says contingency- Mm ... and we might put a line in that says inflation. Absolutely. And, and, and that's like a- an allowance. 

    [00:43:44] Matt: The, the pro- Exactly ... the problem that I have with that is then they see this high number and they freak out.

    [00:43:48] James: Yeah, but let's 

    [00:43:49] Matt: not, let's- It's being honest. The thing is being transparent is the hard part there, 'cause you're doing the right thing by the client. Yeah. 

    [00:43:53] James: But you could say, "This, this contingency number will drop if we can look at these items." 

    [00:43:57] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:43:57] James: Yeah. 'Cause we're getting more confidence. 

    [00:43:59] Matt: And [00:44:00] really, the contingency on a project is within the ground and demolition.

    [00:44:02] Once you're at the ground and demolition, the, the contingency risk factor drops from, say, a high to, like, a, a very low. And the, the changes become the client's choice to change. 

    [00:44:11] Hamish: Well, I think, I think what you're talking about something different. You're, you're talking about, you're talking about just a provisional sum once you've gone to contract.

    [00:44:16] I- No ... you're, you're talking about a line item- A design 

    [00:44:18] Matt: contingency 

    [00:44:19] James: Just a line item at estimate 

    [00:44:20] Hamish: to allow for- At estimate. Yeah, exactly. Yeah ... 

    [00:44:22] James: things that aren't, aren't, uh, could be overlooked 

    [00:44:22] Hamish: or- You'll, you'll do it when you, when you go to construction. Oh, okay. Good idea. 'Cause I'd just say that that's a- Yeah

    [00:44:26] yeah, I, I wouldn't be putting a conting- a contractor contingency. No, we 

    [00:44:29] Matt: can't anyway. Yeah. 

    [00:44:29] Hamish: No, no. That's what I'm saying. So yeah. 

    [00:44:32] Matt: I thought, yeah, okay, that's actually a good idea. I like it, that point 

    [00:44:34] James: there. Yeah. Just, and you can set what that figure is based on what you think the lack of information is.

    [00:44:40] Yeah. It's just a risk profiling 

    [00:44:42] Matt: in there. Like 1%, 2%. 

    [00:44:43] James: Yeah. Now- Yeah ... when it comes to the inflation, you know, what are we tracking at, 4 or 5% or whatever? But- Oh, I've got that done ... we can u- we can use that information on how far are we looking at, when are we looking at starting this? Is it Q2 next year, Q3?

    [00:44:59] Yeah. Do we have to [00:45:00] still get through planning? Is it- Yeah ... like, how early are we getting you involved to help us with numbers? The bigger that, those contingencies are gonna be. Yep, 

    [00:45:07] Hamish: yep. And, and it w- you would think that the contingency drops the further you- Yeah ... further the design progresses- The closer you get

    [00:45:12] the more information we have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:45:14] James: Which is what I was saying before. Yeah. At, at contract, you don't have a contingency. 

    [00:45:18] Matt: Yeah. To give you context on- This is ABS building construction output data. So this is real life, quarter by quarter, um- On the ABS data. So if you were to say hypothetically at the moment, March 2026 if you started, you're at 161.1 and just say a year belo- before that, you'd sort of got your price in March 2025, you're at 154.6.

    [00:45:47] So you have gone up- 6% ... nearly seven, seven per- 7% in the year as construction price. That's Austra- that's ABS data. So you can- Right, 

    [00:45:56] Hamish: and that's inflation. 

    [00:45:57] Matt: No, that, no... Well, is it [00:46:00] inflation? I, I'm not an econ- economist. I'd 

    [00:46:01] Hamish: be interested, 'cause that's in March, that's right when the bloody war started. What's it, 

    [00:46:04] Matt: what is it?

    [00:46:04] That's, that's why, that's why I wanted to 

    [00:46:05] Hamish: bring- What, what is it now? 

    [00:46:06] Matt: So that's still, uh, the latest one wouldn't have come out just yet. This is the most up to date. So you can see quickly within a year how- Yeah ... fast something could go up that is a killer projects. Go back, go back to COVID, and you wanna go back to March 2029, uh, 2019.

    [00:46:22] So that was 115. We're now at 161, so you can see how much they've gone up. You jump, you jump into the end of, or March 2020 or June 2022, you're sitting at 134. So pretty quickly, quickly. Mm. And the graph, you actually put in the graph, I've got in a graph on my computer, and it starts to look so linear because it's gone up so fast now.

    [00:46:44] Yeah. Like, you actually, unless you push it all back in- Mm ... you don't see the, the, the tick. 

    [00:46:49] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:46:49] Matt: Um, but that's, it's a good one. The contingencies, I think, I think the inflation is one that we, what I have in every, um, pricing guide that we give for the first estimate, we just [00:47:00] type in the current inflation rate, and I just Google it and go, "Hey, at the moment, inflation as of this quarter, recently it was 3.61%."

    [00:47:07] If you think that your project is gonna be another year, allow that. We also don't know what is gonna happen in the world. There's a little orange man out there at the moment- I, I don't, I, I- ... that can click his fingers and who knows what the fuck's gonna go on. 

    [00:47:19] Hamish: I don't get as specific. I don't get as specific, but I certainly say, "This is a number that I'm giving you today.

    [00:47:24] This is a line in the sand." Today. "And it could change in 30 days." 

    [00:47:28] Matt: Yeah. But the 

    [00:47:28] Hamish: inflation- But just be prepared for that. So just about that communication I think is important. We 

    [00:47:32] Matt: just have a blurb, 'cause I want them to read it. I want them to understand that, yeah, there's a thing called inflation. And it's ironic because we all think it won't affect us.

    [00:47:41] Like, "Oh, my project won't be." Yeah, yeah. My, I, it was, my same with my- myself with my house. "Oh, the, the build costs won't affect me." Yeah, it fucking does. Mm. 

    [00:47:49] James: What I find interesting is when you look at those one or two pages of the trade breakdowns and the subtotals of those, um, in general I can look at those and, 'cause I see enough of them often [00:48:00] enough that I can go, "Okay.

    [00:48:01] Oh, roofing's up on this. What's, what's going on with this one?" Yeah. Yeah. Or identify these things that we could dig into a bit further, right? Um, uh, but I... It's, it's interesting how you can go, "Oh, that seems about all right. That seems about right." And then you look at the total and you're like things are higher than it was last year or, you know- Death, death by a thousand cuts It is, yeah.

    [00:48:22] Hamish: Um- So, so here's a, here's a question. As a, as a designer who's sort of critiquing pricing and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. So those breakdowns, those cascader ca- cost category breakdowns, those line item breakdowns are You're not looking at them to challenge the builder's cost. You're looking at them to get context around things?

    [00:48:42] James: Yeah. That's one thing he does very well. So, so, okay, that's a... From my point of view- 

    [00:48:44] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [00:48:45] James: I've got enough experience to understand the workings behind them. 

    [00:48:48] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:48:49] James: Some builders will do things differently, like the prelims category, what's in that? Yeah, yeah. It can change, you know, dramatically or be, have things out of it, whatever.

    [00:48:57] But one thing that you probably don't [00:49:00] realize is how important the feedback loop is for you to educate the industry. 

    [00:49:04] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:49:05] Matt: Yeah. '

    [00:49:05] James: Cause our interior designers are being educated by the information that you share with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. 

    [00:49:10] Matt: Yeah, it's like we had a meeting, my interior design- Exactly

    [00:49:12] or their interior designers had a meeting with my joiner the other week just to understand sheet sizes and how things come and where to use things and it was, they were like, "Oh, this is so helpful- Yeah. Yeah ... 'cause we understand now if we design this cu- Context is everything ... yeah, if we decide to design the laundry cupboards like this, that adds so much more money if we just do this."

    [00:49:28] Hmm. Like, a, a common one was that they came across that they, was like, um- Hardware ... yeah, but walk-in robe as well, where you have all this fancy paneling, timber paneling on open doors, but if you put a, put a door on the front, so much cheaper, and you just have white behind it, because- 

    [00:49:43] James: Than an open carcass 

    [00:49:44] Matt: that's color-boarded

    [00:49:44] yeah, than open carcass. There's so many boards- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that are four-sided, so... 

    [00:49:47] James: But also hardware- Hard- yeah ... and putting a more economical hardware- Yeah ... in certain spots was, actually shifted the needle, you know? Yeah. 

    [00:49:54] Matt: Yeah. I think that did allow them... And the, it's probably my biggest critique of architects over [00:50:00] time, when with pricing stuff, like, "Oh, I spoke to the sales rep and he told me this," and I remember a direct one, it was about a thing with Barestone.

    [00:50:08] He's like, "Yeah, the board's pretty good, it's pretty cost-effective. It's $100 a square meter supply." But then they're like, "I give him my price." Like, "But it's $100 a square meter, the sales guy told us." Mm-hmm. He said like, "Yeah, he didn't tell you there's $200 worth of square meter of clips to conceal it- Yeah

    [00:50:22] behind it." Hmm. Like, 'cause you didn't ask the right question. Yeah. 

    [00:50:25] James: And- So I like, I like the feedback loop. 

    [00:50:26] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:50:26] James: Yeah. And, and it, 'cause there's knowledge that then we have in our team based on current- 

    [00:50:32] Hamish: Hmm ... 

    [00:50:33] James: prices and information, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know if you, I, you can... God, it's been a while since we worked together, Hamish, so I don't know if we did this back then, but we've built our own spreadsheet calculator for all the different interior design kind of based things that we can have an influence on.

    [00:50:48] Yeah. If that makes sense from a cost point of view. 

    [00:50:50] Hamish: Yep, yep, yep, 

    [00:50:50] James: yep. So we'll, at that early estimating stage, we haven't started interiors, but we might do a small stage with the client to understand their interior brief, [00:51:00] and then we can go through that estimator and populate it. Yeah. Does that make sense?

    [00:51:03] Yeah, 

    [00:51:03] Matt: yeah. And there was a job. 

    [00:51:05] James: Um- 

    [00:51:05] Matt: It was one, Nat's first one. She was within $300. 

    [00:51:08] Hamish: Oh, wow. 

    [00:51:09] Matt: And I was like... I was, like, shocked. 

    [00:51:12] James: Yeah. 

    [00:51:12] Matt: Like, I, I don't ever expect to be that good again, but that's how close it got the first time. Yeah. 

    [00:51:16] Hamish: I mean, this is the, the importance of the, of, of sharing that information, which, it was just kind of what I was getting at there.

    [00:51:21] Don't gatekeep information. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, I know, like, and since we've worked together- I'm, we're actually giving a ton more information- 

    [00:51:28] Matt: Mm ... 

    [00:51:28] Hamish: like than we did then, uh, 'cause I see a huge amount of value in it. Mm-hmm. So if we're doing that estimating stage where we don't have things specified, here's a list of all the allowances that we've made.

    [00:51:38] Mm-hmm. Here's a list of all the taps and, and tower rails and everything, so the interior designer can then grab that and go, "Okay, cool. Well, I know I'm not gonna allow $4,000 for a tap 'cause they're- Mm-hmm ... only allowed two." 

    [00:51:49] James: Yep. 

    [00:51:49] Hamish: So that's, 

    [00:51:50] Matt: that's a- Or rob Peter to pay Paul. 

    [00:51:51] Hamish: Oh, exactly. Look at it holistically or look at it as a line item.

    [00:51:54] Matt: Yeah. It, it's the budget. It's a shopp- It's, it's the, um- 

    [00:51:56] Hamish: Shopping list. 

    [00:51:57] Matt: Yeah ... yeah, it's a shopping list that you've got and, but you've only got, I don't know, [00:52:00] four grand in your pocket, so you can't literally use anything else 'cause that's all you've got to spend. Yeah. And I think that's how- 

    [00:52:04] James: And that- ... you'd look at it

    [00:52:05] that feedback loop goes into our template then. And it's even just, like, for rates for installation of tiles. So a clie- a, a client can be even educated from our own calculator as to the kind of stuff that they want and what they- I should 

    [00:52:15] Matt: give you an updated one that will really h- 'cause I've lear- I've deep dived into tiles recently.

    [00:52:19] Mm. 'Cause I'm like, "Fuck, tiling's getting expensive." Mm. Mm. So I'll give you some new rates. 

    [00:52:23] Hamish: Yeah, that'd be good. Yeah. Yeah, but everything's getting expensive. 

    [00:52:25] Matt: Yeah, but, yeah, but is it... So is it, or everyone wants more? 'Cause I tell you what, you could go design a house for a lot cheaper if James goes, "I'm designing it for you.

    [00:52:35] I know what you want. Here it is. You might not like what you want, but here's your budget." I guarantee you could do it. 

    [00:52:41] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:52:42] Matt: I guarantee we can build it, but it's not what they want. 

    [00:52:43] Hamish: Yeah. 'Cause they want- Well, that's, that's true ... they want everything. "Oh, I want all the-" And that's 'cause people have choice, and that's okay 'cause- Yeah

    [00:52:49] you know, if everything was just a square box, then we wouldn't have anything aesthetically pleasing, like- 

    [00:52:54] James: Yeah, I don't know. I reckon I've still designed some pretty nice spaces 15, 20 years ago. 

    [00:52:59] Hamish: [00:53:00] Yeah. 

    [00:53:00] James: People just didn't ask for as much. 

    [00:53:04] Hamish: Really? Yeah. 

    [00:53:04] James: Yeah, okay. I just, I think- Social media ... I think things have changed.

    [00:53:07] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:53:08] James: Uh, and I'm not sure it's just keeping up with the Joneses, but it's like, "I like that. I like that. I like that. I'm spending a lot of money on a house. I, I want that." And it's like, "Yeah, but it costs a lot of money." 

    [00:53:18] Hamish: Yeah, okay. 

    [00:53:19] Matt: A mate told me the other day, timber ceiling, like, "Hey, we're gonna cut 25 grand."

    [00:53:22] "No, we want it." Like- 

    [00:53:23] James: Okay. 

    [00:53:24] Matt: That's the typical ... "Okay, do you wanna get to the budget?" 

    [00:53:25] James: Yeah. 

    [00:53:26] Matt: We can't take the sub out. We can't take the windows out. Like, whi- which, oh, it's we just need to get it down a bit. Okay, here's the seven things that will get it down. "Oh, but we want all them." 

    [00:53:34] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:53:35] Matt: Okay. 

    [00:53:35] Hamish: Great. Cool. Yeah.

    [00:53:35] We'll spend more 

    [00:53:36] Matt: money. So, and, and they've r- been really reasonable about it. Mm. But it's like, well, where do we start? And I... It's funny, you go back, I speak to one of my team, and his dad was a builder in Williamstown, and it's very different. It was like, "Hey, here's the plan. Go build me a house." There was enough trust that you're like, "We've got 20 grand for the kitchen.

    [00:53:49] Let's design something." Mm. "20 grand." We built it. Done. And it used to be the contract was simple. The client's got it for so much cheaper. The builder's probably made way more money than what we did now. 

    [00:53:57] James: Simpler times. Yeah. I've got a, I've got a question for you about [00:54:00] trust. Yeah. Like, and we're talking about different types of people.

    [00:54:01] Yeah. And you have some untrusting clients. 

    [00:54:04] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:54:04] James: If that makes sense. I feel like builders win trust of clients easier than designers do 

    [00:54:11] Matt: I think once we're on site, so I th- I think that's, it's a good question. I think there's a- 

    [00:54:15] James: Yeah. When do you feel like- 

    [00:54:16] Matt: Um, I think that I get their trust probably once that first estimate is out the way and it's within the budget.

    [00:54:23] It's like, cool, and I think that's when the sh- needle shifts, 'cause they're like, "Oh, they're doing what we asked them for." 

    [00:54:27] James: Mm. 

    [00:54:27] Matt: And it's, and it's a monetary figure. It's a- Mm ... it's a very hard data point. Oh, 

    [00:54:31] Hamish: that's a really, I, I've- It's a good question ... I guess I've never thought about it, 'cause I've always sat in this seat.

    [00:54:35] But, um- 

    [00:54:36] Matt: And then when we're on site, we're in front of them, in their face constantly. Mm. Like, they are on site every second week, they see our face, they speak to our team almost daily on some line. Yeah, 

    [00:54:46] Hamish: but I think tr- trust is well before that 

    [00:54:48] Matt: No, but that's- That's when- ... but that's when I think that really starts to really, like, the snowball sh- really- Are you 

    [00:54:52] Hamish: talking about, like, 'cause if we're just talking about pre-construction, like, I, I think I agree with you.

    [00:54:56] I think there is trust in a builder. Like, I think it's easier [00:55:00] Or maybe I'm completely wrong here. Is it easier for a client to select a builder than it is for a client to select a designer? I don't know. Don't know what the answer is. Still- 

    [00:55:08] Matt: I would, I would say yeah in the sense of like if, if... Okay, I'm gonna talk the client that has money f- to start with.

    [00:55:14] Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, 100%, because you've got the money to go speak to us. You know the processes, right? Whilst I'll say social media's great, it's also very fake where you see a lot of people, but you kind of know that you, there's enough resource and content from us to go, "I know what I'm getting straight away."

    [00:55:30] Yeah. You know, you would already feel like they know the person. Mm-hmm. And I think builders do a lot better job right now with social media and just constantly getting in front of people with their face, their, their stuff- Actually, that's not a bad- ... their team ... that's not a bad point, but I- You, you already have consumed, and I constantly get this on when people reach out to me, "Oh, we've been following you for five or six years."

    [00:55:47] They have that much already, I am in their face, in their ears with podcasts. I've been on Granny Designs- That's a good point ... if you didn't know. Like, there's so much- ... so much things that, like consumable content. 

    [00:55:57] Hamish: What, what I've actually noticed on your social media recently [00:56:00] is you've, you've started to do a lot of, like, you're, you're trialing different things.

    [00:56:05] Yeah. Like, I look at a lot of other architects', um, social media, and it's very curated. 

    [00:56:09] Matt: Mm-hmm. 

    [00:56:10] Hamish: Like, it's nice picture, nice picture- Mm-hmm ... nice picture, nice pi- You're starting to actually educate. 

    [00:56:16] Matt: Mm. Yeah. 

    [00:56:17] Hamish: Which I think is excellent. Mm. Like, and I, and I know Maxa Design have been doing it as well. Mm. Noticed that they've started to do it, but I don't see many other designers doing that.

    [00:56:24] It's ego. It's ego. It's ego. Is it all needs to be curated and- It's an ego thing, '

    [00:56:26] Matt: cause I gotta show my beautiful project. 

    [00:56:28] Hamish: I don't know. Maybe- Yeah ... maybe, maybe there's something in it. I think- Whereas we don't c- we don't care about jumping in front of a camera doing a talking head thing with our, you know, hair all over the here and unshaven- Yeah

    [00:56:36] whatever. I th- Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:56:38] Matt: There, there's a podcast on, it was a diver CEO. It was just after Trump got his second term elected, and they did this, um, mark- It was with an Australian guy, I think he was a marketing expert, and it talks about how he actually won the election from a marketing perspective on getting in front of so many people and just doing podcast after podcast.

    [00:56:59] Mm. Wouldn't care what he's [00:57:00] asked, he'd do a four-hour podcast. There's four hours of someone that can consume him. He'd just constantly be in front of people, and it was a very smart strategy, and ultimately the more that you c- you... They, they came up, there was this data on how much you need to be in front of someone before they trust you, and it was this light bulb moment for me, and that's the moment I started getting my face in front of camera.

    [00:57:17] Mm. Mm. And I could see quickly then, like, a growth of people. Yeah. 'Cause it's, they trust you. They feel they know you already. They 

    [00:57:23] Hamish: don't ask like- Yeah. I don't disagree with that. Yeah. Yeah. I, well, I know we can only talk from our point of view. 

    [00:57:26] James: Yeah, I'm not really comfortable- 

    [00:57:28] Matt: I wasn't either ... in, in 

    [00:57:29] James: social media.

    [00:57:29] Like, I just- 

    [00:57:30] Matt: I don't like 

    [00:57:31] James: it ... I just don't, I'm not on my phone for- much of, of, of a day, if that makes sense, doing that. I'll have enough time on digital shit that I just don't want to worry about it But that's 

    [00:57:40] Matt: marketing. You don't, and this, this is what Nicole- 

    [00:57:42] James: It's important. Yeah. 

    [00:57:43] Matt: Yeah I, I for so long, Nicole's like, "There's so much content you could create.

    [00:57:45] I haven't done this." Yeah. She's like, "Get the photo, v-video- Yeah ... and just talk." 

    [00:57:48] James: Yeah. 

    [00:57:49] Matt: And the thing is, like, and I for so long didn't see marketing as social media. I hate social media. I don't use it personally. Um, I actually don't even look at anyone else's sh- 

    [00:57:58] Hamish: I think we're digressing a little bit. 

    [00:57:58] Matt: Yeah, but like, but what I'm saying [00:58:00] is, like, I reckon if you get in, like, your face just talking through something, you'll just get...

    [00:58:04] And, but 

    [00:58:04] James: you- I was just more so going back to, like, for six months we didn't really do anything. There wasn't even a post that we put up probably. And then just more recently we've just decided let's just try some different things and, and more so just from engagement and, um- 

    [00:58:17] Matt: Be really opinionated. I feel that that's what people, like, it- I think 

    [00:58:19] James: the educational- Yeah

    [00:58:20] is right. Mm. Yeah. But I've just never really felt comfortable in understanding what to tell, if that makes sense. So even yesterday's one where Claire's filming me while I'm working, I'm like You know, I didn't really like it ... add that. That's 

    [00:58:35] Hamish: fine. Like, just sort of fuck off. But the thing is, I, I, I saw that and I watched it.

    [00:58:39] James: Yeah. 

    [00:58:40] Hamish: Because it's different- Yeah ... and engaging and- Be you ... like, I kind of get it. 

    [00:58:44] Matt: Just be you. Tell 

    [00:58:44] James: them to piss off. And, and I, I suspect then that the algorithm works for those things, 'cause it then tracks off the charts for some random reason. 

    [00:58:51] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:58:52] James: But yeah. 

    [00:58:52] Hamish: Yeah. I don't necessarily... I don't think your brand should go and be- 

    [00:58:58] Matt: Opinionated

    [00:58:58] Hamish: tri- opinionated. 

    [00:58:59] Matt: And I [00:59:00] think you- I don't think, I don't think- I think you've got to stand for something. And when I say opinionated, the stand that we are only designing buildings that are going to be healthy and comfortable, that is an opinion, and that is being- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. You, that's, that's what I mean.

    [00:59:10] You don't have to go and like- Shitcan the BPC. 

    [00:59:13] Hamish: Yeah. Do that or, you know, do what, do what Brad... Y- you're not going to go and do what Brad did, right? You know, that's just Brad. That's Brad's brand. That's what I'd do, yeah. You know, like... Just stop being 

    [00:59:21] Matt: the best. 

    [00:59:21] Hamish: Now, where I'm conscious, 'cause I've got a- Yeah

    [00:59:24] I've got something on in a minute. Um, so I feel like we've, we've covered a lot. We've- 

    [00:59:29] James: Can I check my checklist? 

    [00:59:30] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, 

    [00:59:30] James: go. 'Cause I've been writing these notes for two years, waiting for the call up. But, um... 

    [00:59:36] Matt: Why are you finding it? So I've just kind of got, this is in one of our docs that we give responsibility.

    [00:59:41] So responsibilities of a design team, they're sketch design, design development, um, for the superstructure and also the interiors, contract documentation and building permit. The builder is the budget. The range is established through a budget alignment study. We then do a design estimate, a final estimate, and then we do the [01:00:00] building contract, and then we build.

    [01:00:02] I think that if everyone knows their roles, that's one. Mm. And I actually, I developed this off a conversation we had actually. You're very good at going, "Well, who's responsible for what and who owns what?" Mm. And I feel that once I did that, I felt like f- I had control. I felt like I had control, but I also felt that I could trust everyone even more.

    [01:00:18] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:00:19] Matt: Yeah. And I think that's the big thing is everyone. 'Cause if I trust you in your role, I know you're going to do it. 

    [01:00:22] Hamish: Yeah. And I think, I think it's also, and, and I reckon my opinion's changed a little bit on this one. I, I think James, you are right. There needs to... Even though I like to think that everyone's on the s- on a similar level and the project is sitting at the top, I do think that there needs to be someone, it is essentially being the PM- Mm

    [01:00:38] and pulling the strings and dictating what's happening next. I think- I mean, that's the 

    [01:00:42] Matt: designer. 

    [01:00:42] Hamish: Yeah. And I, and you know what? Up until site. I, I actually agree with you. 

    [01:00:45] James: Yeah. 

    [01:00:45] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:00:46] James: I, I think one thing f- like it's okay for us that we're tweaking things as we go 'cause we've done it before, but for people that may not have done it or a builder comes in and says, "Oh, I'm happy to do pre-con with this designer, but I haven't done it before."

    [01:00:59] Matt: [01:01:00] Mm. 

    [01:01:00] James: I'd suggest like literally whiteboarding it as a group between the builder, the client and the designer- And work out, like, you plot the time out, oops, um, f- from wherever you just come in- This is a good idea ... to when you're gonna get to site. 

    [01:01:14] Hamish: Yep. 

    [01:01:15] James: And then go, "Okay, when do we wanna look at what level of pricing and when do we want an update?"

    [01:01:21] 'Cause I don't want you doing 10 updates if you don't need to. Yeah. I just wanna be able to go, "Okay, well, we got to this one. Now let's wait till the next one will be- Yeah ... when engineering comes in, and the next one's when the, the interiors package- Yep ... is in." 

    [01:01:33] Hamish: Yep. 

    [01:01:33] James: And so I think literally whiteboard it so everybody's got an idea, and then whoever it is, which would probably be the designer- Yep

    [01:01:39] has to take the lead and hit those, uh- Yep ... 

    [01:01:43] Hamish: milestones and- That's a great idea. I think it is. 

    [01:01:44] Matt: That's a great idea. Because the thing is, we're fitting into multiple different- Mm ... um, processes and how they all work. 

    [01:01:47] Hamish: But I 

    [01:01:48] Matt: think 

    [01:01:48] Hamish: what, what, what's really refreshing at the moment is, like, what the process that we've, uh, like, running now we're finding works with multiple different design teams.

    [01:01:57] Yeah. Mm-hmm. But we're, we are saying, "Right, we're coming in at [01:02:00] here, here, and here." 

    [01:02:00] Matt: Mm-hmm. "

    [01:02:01] Hamish: You guys do your thing." Mm-hmm. "Bring us in if you need us." Yeah. 

    [01:02:03] Matt: Yeah. 

    [01:02:04] Hamish: We, we'll let you... There's, 'cause there's a lot more that you guys are doing than what we're doing in pre-con. 

    [01:02:08] James: Yep. 

    [01:02:08] Hamish: We're just doing chunks of time. Yep.

    [01:02:09] Matt: It's also, like, with the performance stuff, I don't need to be... With James, I don't need to be in every performance meeting. I know he knows what he's doing. What's on, 

    [01:02:15] Hamish: what's on your notes? 

    [01:02:16] James: No, that was it. I had other things that were just non-related to this topic, but this, I'll, I'll, uh, come- The next- I'll, I'll come and knock on the door another time.

    [01:02:23] Hamish: The next, 

    [01:02:23] Matt: next 

    [01:02:24] Hamish: conversation. 

    [01:02:24] Matt: Um, so MEGT mindful moment MEGT, Australia's largest apprenticeship expert 

    [01:02:31] Hamish: You always seem to, like- 

    [01:02:32] Matt: I get it wrong ... you've done it so many times I know, I, I know. I f- I, like, always second-guess myself Say 

    [01:02:36] Hamish: MEGT again, just to give another- 

    [01:02:37] Matt: M- E- G- T 

    [01:02:37] Hamish: M- MEGT 

    [01:02:38] Matt: So, um- 

    [01:02:39] Hamish: MEGT. We have two apprentices through MEGT 

    [01:02:41] Matt: I think, yeah, three.

    [01:02:42] Three, um, I have. So MEGT mindful moment. Um, Hamish has a really good one for this one. 

    [01:02:51] Hamish: No, d- do you know what? I, I think, um, yeah, I do actually. So when you first sat down, you said you'd just come from a client's home- Mm-hmm ... [01:03:00] that they've generously let you stay in. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think that there is- Well, no.

    [01:03:05] James: We're, we're s- we're, we're goat sitting and alpaca sitting and chicken sitting Okay, 

    [01:03:09] Hamish: great 

    [01:03:09] James: But yeah, sure. 

    [01:03:10] Hamish: But to get to that point- Yeah ... there is this amazing relationship- Yeah ... that you guys have, like, you know, fostered with them. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I think one of your posts said, "Our clients are now our friends."

    [01:03:22] James: Yeah 

    [01:03:23] Hamish: Which I think is amazing, 'cause we've got a similar kind of history with ours as well. Mm-hmm. And I think there's a lesson in that for any apprentice or anyone starting out in their field, that they shouldn't just look at their clients as, like, a transaction. Yeah. Like, I think for it to be successful and for work to come in all the time, you need to see this as a long-term relationship.

    [01:03:43] Mm-hmm. The relationship extends beyond the moment that you give them a set of keys. I 

    [01:03:47] James: like that. Mm-hmm. 

    [01:03:47] Matt: That was really good. 

    [01:03:48] Hamish: Thanks. 

    [01:03:49] James: Yeah. They become an advocate for you. 

    [01:03:51] Matt: Yeah, they're, they're an amazing marketing resource. Mm. 

    [01:03:53] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:03:53] James: Yeah. And so there's a number of times where I've even called on clients to say, "Do you [01:04:00] mind if I show someone your house?

    [01:04:01] They're around the corner, and- 

    [01:04:02] Hamish: Yeah ... 

    [01:04:02] James: it's similar to what we're talking about." Some people need context. Come jump 

    [01:04:06] Matt: in the bubble bath. 

    [01:04:07] James: Yeah. Yeah. Hey- And, you know, and, and, and just keeping those relationships, um, yeah, it's really helpful. 

    [01:04:15] Matt: Yeah. So to get onto Alter Eco Design, I know your website off the top of my head, www.altereco.net.au.

    [01:04:22] New website coming out. Good for you. The amount of times I have written that as a hyperlink. Um, I, I could talk from my perspective here, from working with James and his team, um, having build, been on both builder side and client side. Um, I love working with you guys. You do make my life so much easier.

    [01:04:41] There's a reason I chose you to be my designer. Um, there's a reason we choose to continue to work with you. Mm. You might hate us at times, but- ... um, but, uh, thank you from us. Um, you're doing some amazing work out there. Anyone that wants to reach out to him, please do. If you're thinking of designing, highly suggest it.

    [01:04:57] Thanks. 

    [01:04:59] James: Think there's anything else? 

    [01:04:59] Matt: No, that's it. No. No, I agree. That's it. Thank [01:05:00] you very much. Thanks for the kudos on 

    [01:05:01] James: the- Yeah, thank you ... on the journey, 

    [01:05:02] Matt: and- Yeah, thank you. No, we'll have you back again now we've got Sean. It'll be a lot, um, quicker before drinks. 

    [01:05:09] Hamish: Thank you. 

    [01:05:10] James: Thanks, James. All right. Cheers, guys

Matthew Carland
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