Australias most friendly builder?
“I remember crying, driving back to Geelong because it was just too much.”
Devin Grant doesn’t sugar-coat it. In our latest episode, Devin takes us from the early years of getting started in carpentry, through the pressure-cooker stage of running a growing building business, to the moment burnout caught up with him. And then, what he did next. Because this isn’t just a story about building houses. It’s about building a career (and a life) that doesn’t leave you feeling desperate for a holiday and wishing for retirement.
The Early Days: Finding His Feet on the Tools
Devin got into building straight out of school, not because he had some grand plan, but because he was looking for direction and wasn’t afraid of hard work. He cut his teeth in carpentry, worked alongside a major local builder, and learned early that you don’t get handed respect in this industry, you earn it.
Those early years were about showing up, proving himself, and figuring out what kind of builder he wanted to become.
Granted Constructions: Growth, Pressure, and Burnout
Granted Constructions launched in 2013 and quickly gained momentum. But with growth came the reality a lot of builders know too well: longer weeks, bigger expectations, and a constant sense that you’re only ever one problem away from everything falling in a heap.
Six-day weeks in a demanding commercial environment eventually took their toll. Devin’s honest about what that felt like; overwhelming, exhausting, and isolating.
And it forced a bigger question: if you can’t sustain the way you’re working, what kind of business are you actually building?
Passive House: “It’s Not a Spaceship. It’s Just a House Done Right.”
Our conversation shifted into the thing Devin is genuinely fired up about: Passive House.
His introduction to passive house wasn’t some polished marketing pitch, it started with being asked to quote on a passive house build (before he knew what it even was), doing a tradesman course, and realising there was a better way to build. A way that prioritises comfort, efficiency, and performance without needing to triple the budget.
Devin has lived in his own passive house for more than eight years, so he’s not talking theory. He’s talking lived experience.
Training Builders and Raising the Standard
Devin’s impact doesn’t stop at his own builds. Through Performance Membranes, created in collaboration with Justin O’Conner (who we have also had on the podcast) he’s been part of training more than two and a half thousand builders. That number matters because it proves something important: the appetite for better building is real.
Builders want to improve. They just need access to the right knowledge, materials, and support to make it practical on site.
What Devin’s Story Really Shows
Devin’s journey is a reminder that the hard moments often trigger the most meaningful change. Burnout forced him to rethink sustainability, not just in buildings, but in how we work, lead, and stay in the industry long enough to enjoy it.
This episode is for any builder who has felt the pressure, anyone curious about passive house, and anyone who wants proof that “building better” isn’t a slogan it’s a decision you make, one project at a time.
LINKS:
Performance Membranes:
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/performancemembranesau/
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
-
[00:01:06] Hamish: I've known Devin for a long time. I'd say probably 2007 or 2018, um, when passive house definitely wasn't cool. No, def definitely wasn't cool. But I want to go back to where it all began for you. Mm-hmm. Because you've been in the space for. Arguably longer than that. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself to, to the people.
[00:01:29] 'cause there's, there's probably a lot of people out there that know you as Devon from Performance Membranes. Mm-hmm. But there is a big backstory before you
[00:01:35] Devin: got here. Big journey. Um, I guess it all started I guess chippy by trade. Yep. Um. So went outta school not knowing what I wanted to do. One of my best mates is like, there's a pre-app running, I can drop a year 12 subject.
[00:01:47] I'm like, sweet, I'll drop a year 12 subject and I'll do a pre-app. And then, um, went into my apprenticeship, um, worked with a guy for six months and he said I wasn't good enough. So he never signed me up even though I pushed him. So I [00:02:00] ended up pushing away from that and leaving. I actually went to the builder, one of the main builders we worked for, and I said, look, I'm finishing up with this guy.
[00:02:09] And, um. I said, Sam, sorry, but I've enjoyed working on your jobs. And he said, well, I'll get rid of him. Come work for me. And so he chose to do all the carpentry in-house at the time, so it was sort of like semi-commercial work. So we ended up doing all the carpentry in-house, um, and he's like, work for me.
[00:02:29] So I did that for a few years and I really wanted to get into more domestic. So you did the pre your, your, your apprenticeship. Yeah. Started my partnership with that builder. Um, it was an Italian family essentially. Really? And that's what I think it came back to for me. It was like the community and the guys I was working with.
[00:02:44] We worked our asses off, but I got paid well. Um, he paid me above award, bought my first house at 21. Wow. 'cause of that, which was a huge thing. Um, and, uh, but I was getting to my third year and I'm like, I'd never put a truss up. You know, other than [00:03:00] some IES to mezzanines or that sort of thing. Um, and I felt like I was like really limited in my scope.
[00:03:07] So I actually went to the Master Builders like conference, their awards and their main conference they were running at the time. And I just approached some builders, um, who were looking for, if they were looking for apprentices who were award-winning builders. 'cause I'm like, I want to try and start from the top.
[00:03:23] Got an apprenticeship with Hedger, um, one Victorian Apprenticeship Apprentice of the year. And my fourth year, in my fourth year I did my Cert four.
[00:03:31] Hamish: Yep.
[00:03:31] Devin: So I was doing rebuild after Black Saturday.
[00:03:34] Hamish: Okay.
[00:03:34] Devin: And, um, so traveling from Marysville into homeschooling in my fourth year on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday to do my cert four.
[00:03:42] Um, can
[00:03:43] Matt: I jump in on that? There seems to be a common theme with carpenters who do their cert 3 0 4. In their apprenticeship end up becoming builders. It's not the first time we've heard it as well. I know. Was it Luke Davies? Luke Davies did it. I did. I did it. Yeah. I did it. I did it. I think it's a pretty good stepping stone.
[00:03:59] I think
[00:03:59] Hamish: you can kind of [00:04:00] see the really motivated people. Mm-hmm. Like, they're like, okay cool. Alright. What's next? What's next? What's next? Because it's not like there. There is a little bit of a. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm qualified. I'm a carpenter now. Yeah. I'm like, what the fuck? We've set an expect, we set an expectation.
[00:04:17] Learning doesn't
[00:04:17] Devin: stop there. I finished my tafe and then I met my now wife, and she was, let's call at the top of her class in the top three or four scores of her year. 12. What, what did
[00:04:27] Hamish: she, what did she do?
[00:04:27] Devin: She did a double degree in HR and business. Okay. Oh wow. And um, that's a great person to have in the background.
[00:04:33] Yes. And I was probably in the bottom two or three of year 12 marking, let's call it just school was social.
[00:04:39] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:04:39] Devin: Um, so I wanted to also like. I've met her. I wanna prove myself a little bit. So I really wanted to do my cert four and push on from there.
[00:04:48] Matt: She is that the first time this everyone, anyone's done a cert four to impress a girl?
[00:04:52] Devin: Hey baby, I'm, uh, I'm doing my cert certificate four. I think it's just proving that you're like, you're pushing to do more, you know, I think that was it. It's
[00:04:58] Matt: part of our, so I actually [00:05:00] have been making over the last few weeks, I know we can even make this, I can somehow maybe put it on the Mindful Builder website.
[00:05:05] Is it? If you're an apprentice that sign up for us, now you get a package of where you need to be at the first, second, third, fourth year. And that's the third. Such a great idea. You have to be doing your, um, cert four.
[00:05:15] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:05:15] Matt: And it also says like what tools you need at each stage and they're your KPIs and if you don't meet them, we'll just get rid of you.
[00:05:20] Yeah. We had like, it's a really simple guide to being
[00:05:21] Devin: successful and granted we had a tool list that's like basically your first, second, third, and fourth year tool expectations. Um, and it was just good 'cause then like the other carpenters weren't sharing their tools or granted, wasn't. Reliance on it.
[00:05:34] Matt: Yeah. Just shows commitment.
[00:05:35] Devin: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, the journey was, um, finished my apprenticeship, I won Apprentice of the Year and I had quite a few offers to go into commercial site management just 'cause of winning the Victorian Award with the master builders. So I went into that. 'cause to be honest, the high rise and the big projects were pretty shiny.
[00:05:51] Um, and I did a couple of, Dan Murphy's, I did a, um, development in South Melbourne just off Montague Street, which was won some awards with a [00:06:00] commercial builder, but I got burnt out. Yep. I remember driving home from, um, I was doing Aria Shopping Center, an extension, a dent, uh, um, what was it? BWS. Yep. And a Kohl's.
[00:06:11] And the hoarding fell over, um, at one, one area or it was left open or something happened. And, um. The center manager called me and he is like the hoardings open, you're gonna have to fix it up. I remember calling my boss and it was like a Friday night I was done and I remember crying, driving back to Geelong 'cause I had to go back.
[00:06:31] He's like, my boss is like, your job, your responsibility.
[00:06:34] Hamish: Wow. And I was
[00:06:35] Devin: done. At the time living in Packham, driving to Cario and Geelong. So it was, um, it was, uh, so I got really burnt out there. Um, yeah. But
[00:06:43] Matt: that's that industry, like, they just a field, especially with carpentry, they jump in the commercial industry because it's Oh, the big shining bunny.
[00:06:50] Devin: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:50] Matt: But then they're, they've gotta work you six days a week. Like what kind of lifestyle is that? Yeah. And they don't like, they just waste their money on crap 'cause they.
[00:06:57] Devin: Yeah, I got burnt out. It was from like, I [00:07:00] had to do six days. There was no option. The site was open. Even RDO, like for the trades I had to be there to work out the contract, the, you know, scheduling and everything like that.
[00:07:09] But I learnt scheduling. I learned how to manage people.
[00:07:12] Hamish: Yeah,
[00:07:12] Devin: really Well set you up. The bosses really like invested in that. 'cause that's what they do Well yeah, they do scheduling, they invest well into that. Then my wife, um, one of her key accounts 'cause she was managing, um, assistant manager at Reese Burwood.
[00:07:26] Um, at the time she got, uh, one of her main accounts. Um, I went into site managing with them into residential. So I did that for nine months and then went to get my license, did my diploma at that point, and I got registered as a DBU in when I was 20. Just turned 25 I, that time I got mine. 24. Such young.
[00:07:46] Yeah, 24. I was, um, I went for my interview in 25. I was in May. I got my, got my ticket and my DBU, so I was pretty stoked. Because I also, at that point in time, um, my wife and I bought a block in [00:08:00] Boronia and we wanted to do a development, and so we did four townhouses and it was literally like. I either have to get this license or I've gotta borrow, you know, get someone else involved, this sort of thing.
[00:08:12] Um,
[00:08:12] Matt: were you on the tools at all then, or no? Yeah, so
[00:08:14] Devin: granted from the start I was, you know, that's when granted, constructions essentially started 2013 and I was on the, on the tools at that point with an apprentice and, um, guys, and I was probably on the tools for about three or four years. Um, and then after that.
[00:08:29] Um, I was just managing. Do you think you need to get pushed to the edge to find out where your limits are? Yeah, I was in, in granted, yeah, um, in 2021, but more so 2020. Um, granted constructions, I was, um, at the point where I'm like, I don't like what I do, so I know where I don't want to be.
[00:08:48] Hamish: Yeah,
[00:08:48] Devin: but as a builder, I had the, at the time, like eight houses on three were certified passive house.
[00:08:55] Um, and I had a team of like 12 guys. And at that point I'm like, I [00:09:00] don't like this. Yeah. I'm literally on the phone or on the computer all day, every day solving problems put into aspect. We're also dealing with all of COVID.
[00:09:07] Matt: Maybe I missed something here. Yeah, you got, you got to a point where you just hated building.
[00:09:11] Devin: Yeah, so 2020 I was just like, done.
[00:09:13] Hamish: But that, but that, so 2020. So, but, but go back when you're driving down to Cairo.
[00:09:17] Devin: Yeah.
[00:09:17] Hamish: And you know, you, I guess what I'm, what I'm trying to say is I actually think as entrepreneurs and as you know, probably, you know, rid that h ADHD kind of people, like we kinda, we, we stand on the edge of that, um, that dopamine hit.
[00:09:35] Yeah. And I think that it sounds as if. Yeah, you went there, you kind of fell off, you've come back and now in 2020 you like realize, okay, hang on. I'm looking over the edge again now. Yeah. I don't like it, but I kind of almost feel like that driving down to Cairo and the, and the way that you've just described it, then you, I could probably see in your eyes that you still remember it very vividly.
[00:09:55] Yeah. Like you'd never gonna forget that. You're never gonna forget that lesson. No. But you've then [00:10:00] used it in 20 20, 20 21 when you're like, hang on a minute, I'm getting to that edge again. Yeah. What
[00:10:04] Matt: was the year between that? When did you, so
[00:10:06] Devin: like probably, um, 13 I started granted. Yeah. Um, and then like granted did, was doing great year on year, you know, a deck and Pergola becomes an extension.
[00:10:18] Yeah. And becomes a new house and you just keep winning work. Amazing team that sort of built, um, site managers, carpenters, and that sort of thing. The right people come at the right time. Yeah. Is what we always believed. Um, and 2015, I was asked to, um, quote a, um, passive house by, um, by building survey was own home in Bella cla.
[00:10:40] And I didn't know what passive house was at all at that point in time. Um, but there was a course coming up, a tradesman course, so he had you heard of it? No, never heard of it. Um, so he was the build, he's a building surveyor and he was recommended, I always recommended to him as a builder from another building surveyor.
[00:10:56] Yep. So he told me that there's a tradesman [00:11:00] course to learn about it, um, coming up. So that was the first one. And lo and behold, I was sitting next to Justin, a business partner now, and a poor, you probably chewed his ear off, but we're just really cut of the same cloth. That's all I can say. It's like both carpenters, both loved building, um, both like we weren't just brought up as a chippy.
[00:11:20] We were a builders carpenter. Yeah. Say like we poured the concrete. Yeah. We built everything. We're involved from the start to finish. Who else was in that course? Anyone else? Stuy Lee. Yeah, from in house. Um, they're the, the two that I like vividly remember who I know are sort of active.
[00:11:36] Hamish: Yep.
[00:11:36] Devin: Um, in the space and.
[00:11:38] I'd say my wife, I came home that first day and I was like, buzzing. She's like, you love this trainer, don't you? That was burka. That was, um, Michael who came out from Ireland. Ah, yeah. Okay. And he just, Rick did one course. Yep. But she's like, oh my gosh, actually Justin,
[00:11:53] Hamish: Justin brought him up. Yeah.
[00:11:54] Devin: Yeah. Justin brought him up.
[00:11:55] Amazing. You know, and I think that was before social media and everything like that. Yeah. So it's like this [00:12:00] fresh air of how to do things differently. Um, thankfully I didn't win that job. Because three isn't into my app. Um, running my own business, buying windows in from Germany.
[00:12:11] Hamish: Yeah. So
[00:12:11] Devin: another guy did it.
[00:12:12] He's not involved in passive house at all. He did the course. He got burnt. Did he? Uh, I think he just, he does very high-end architecture. Okay. Um, Bayside way. Um, and still, still runs his business, but he's not involved in any way. Why Thankful
[00:12:24] Matt: he didn't win that job.
[00:12:26] Devin: It would've pushed me over the end, I think Edge cash, flow wise, everything.
[00:12:30] Um, it was like off form concrete. It was like not just. A conventional building, but what happened is it opened my eyes to passive house.
[00:12:39] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:12:39] Devin: And then my wife and Suzanne and I were like, if we believe in this and if I believe in this, we've gotta do it ourselves.
[00:12:45] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:12:46] Devin: So that was, that was the journey. We bought a block in Emerald.
[00:12:49] Um, in, in Mount Danenong there and like, let's design and build a, um, a passive house. When was that? So that was, um, 2016. We bought the block. It was [00:13:00] finished this year will be eight years in the house, couple weekends. So, um, 2017 it was finished. And, and you've recently retested that house, haven't you? Yeah.
[00:13:09] And tested it only a few weeks ago. Yeah. Point three three at, at certification. Yep. Efficiency managed matrix. Did that. And then, um, we just, I just tested it again. So eight years later, 0.36. And can I,
[00:13:22] Hamish: I mean, it's not often that we have someone who's lived in a passive, their own passive house for that long, so, um.
[00:13:27] He was the sixth certified in
[00:13:28] Devin: Australia.
[00:13:29] Matt: So I'm interested to, is Justin let you know that he's was first,
[00:13:33] Devin: we always had the discussion, um, about it, but uh, it's like we only had each other to talk to, so
[00:13:38] Hamish: I'm interested to understand the living experience in it over those eight years. Mm-hmm. Like, um, has it changed at all from that
[00:13:44] Devin: first year?
[00:13:46] So first year we actually didn't put. A split system in like in the November when we moved in. 'cause we're like, do we need it? Do we not? There was not really any understanding. Yeah. Okay. And then we had a few rolling days of 35 to 37 and the retained heat was just [00:14:00] too hot. Yes.
[00:14:00] Hamish: Yep.
[00:14:00] Devin: So we roughed in like the P coil Yeah.
[00:14:03] For it. But um, and so I fitted it off, um, in the sort of January, February. It's like, no, we'd need the heating and cooling. It's two and a half kilowatt high wall split. You know, it's a small
[00:14:12] Hamish: and that, that is, that is interesting. I mean, for people who don't know, like you. I mean, a hundred percent of our homes we're putting in at least two.
[00:14:19] Mm-hmm. Sometimes three. Yeah. You know, and we're even having a discussion now in some of our, the larger homes that we put in, that we're putting small ducted systems in. Yeah. Yeah. Because you still need heating and cooling. Yeah. Passive house, PSPP allows for a bit of overheating and mm-hmm. Under cooling, that the word Yeah.
[00:14:35] Matt: Yeah. Cooling load.
[00:14:36] Hamish: Yeah. Cooling load. Yeah. So, so you do need to top it up or, or, or balance it. Yeah. So passive house is probably. Not the right word to call it. 'cause there is a little bit of active, um, either opening your windows or putting your heating and corner.
[00:14:49] Matt: What about a fireplace in a passive house?
[00:14:50] Do you have any comments on that? Yeah. Don't you have a fireplace? We've got a fireplace.
[00:14:53] Devin: It was the first certified house in Australia. I'll say that with a fireplace. Um. It was challenging to [00:15:00] do. My wife's like, we live in the hills. Like let's put a fireplace in. And at the time it's like, do we need it?
[00:15:05] Do we not? It was not any, not a lot of knowledge around. Um, so we, we put it in, um, often we'll have a window open when we'll, uh, when we actually have it on. Have you got, have you got make, have
[00:15:16] Hamish: you got a makeup air for it too? Yeah.
[00:15:17] Devin: So it's got external air supply. Yeah. Um, for it. So it's a fully sealed unit.
[00:15:22] Um, and then just the flu. So and so you put it on and you need to open windows? Yeah, we have to open window. 'cause it, it overheats the house. Wow. Um, but like my kids and like myself, I'm in shorts and a t-shirt inside the house all year and that's a unique experience. Like we don't change our blankets on our beds for the kids.
[00:15:42] Like a lot of people will be like, there's a winter set of blankets. Yeah. And then there's doers or that sort of thing. Yep. But we just don't change that. And that's something we probably take for granted, um, in that way. But, you know, uh, would I do it again? Yes. At the time, people. We're like, what the heck are you building?
[00:15:59] [00:16:00] Um, one comment was a spaceship, but I think at that point it doesn't look like a spaceship. It's like a, it's a very typical weatherboard home. Yeah. Well that was what I wanted to break. That's why I designed it that way. 'cause I'm like, I like recycled reds. I like pine lined eves. I like timber fascia and weather boards.
[00:16:16] And so like my house, you couldn't pick it any different from anything else on the street, but it's a certified passive house. Yeah. So getting back to
[00:16:23] Hamish: the question I asked like year on year, is it. I mean, you're obviously just used to living in a passive house now. Mm-hmm. Like, but do you, has the performance dropped at all
[00:16:31] Devin: or has it, has hasn't changed like, um, at all.
[00:16:36] I, I, it just works the same. Yeah. It's a
[00:16:40] Matt: weird, so I've just moved into mine. Yeah. I'm 10 day Your flex. Huge flex. 10 days in, I found the first night to be like, this is weird. Yeah. Like it's so quiet compared to where I've come from. I have moved from Braybrook, which is like hotspot of crime to Yar, which is beautiful.
[00:16:55] So I don't dunno whether it's just like.
[00:16:57] Devin: The second passive house we did, we actually [00:17:00] put um, uh, data cable in for speakers of external, um, for, and microphones for external microphones for internal speakers because he didn't wanna lose. 'cause that was in, it's in, um, Yara Junction and he was on a hundred acres.
[00:17:13] Just open the windows. No, he just didn't want to be in the middle of winter or anything. He wanted actually the outdoor inside still. So we set up our microphones outside to pick up birds and everything like that to run on the speakers inside the house. Really? Yeah. And does he still use them? Oh, it was only up there like a month and a half ago and this is 2018, we finished you that house.
[00:17:34] Wonder why there's AAB bar in the house. Where's that mosquito? But it's very quiet, a passive house and people aren't, it is really realize how quiet it actually is. It's
[00:17:43] Matt: odd. So I, 'cause I put speakers in my house, not for me inside to out, but just for music. Mm-hmm. Um. And I have to have 'em on the full time because it's, it is, it's weird.
[00:17:53] It's weirdly quiet, isn't it? It just screw up a bit more and you have a bit more noise. I just can't. Yeah, I know, [00:18:00] but I can't. I can't. I actually can't describe the comfort. This is where I'm really struggling and as even a marketing message to explain living in a passive house. I, I just, it's like you have to almost experience it.
[00:18:10] It's, mm-hmm. And it's, I think that's probably why people struggle to understand it, because once you in it, everyone's like, oh my God. Like, yeah, I get it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:18:18] Hamish: I mean, fortunately, you know, we've, we've built a few passive and high performance homes now and we're good friends with some of the people that we built these houses for.
[00:18:26] Mm-hmm. So we quite often go and stay in the house up in Ton. And I remember, and I think I've told this story before, Lucy woke up the next morning and said. I get it now. Mm-hmm. Like, you know how, how, no matter how much explaining I say to her, yeah. Oh, you just, it's, it's quiet, it's healthy, the ventilation, all that kind of stuff.
[00:18:45] She just woke up in the morning. She's like, okay, I get it.
[00:18:47] Devin: Yeah, we have to go the opposite way. So like, we stayed in the city for Archie Build, we stayed at Airbnb just in the city, so it didn't, wasn't traveling. Yeah. I could still see the kids over three days and we're staying in Airbnb and [00:19:00] CCC is like, I get it while like living in a ax, because you've got these split systems all running, it's cold in front of this big glazed wall and this like multi-story Yeah.
[00:19:08] You know, apartment, but it's, it's,
[00:19:10] Matt: it's, it's a, it's a strange concept where we are celebrating building the house correctly. Mm-hmm. Like that's an, it's a, like, it's a weird, it's a, it. That's what maybe my brain can't comprehend. So you like, you get a car and everyone, this is the latest technology in the car and how safe it is.
[00:19:25] Mm-hmm. We, we are just
[00:19:26] Devin: like, is it, is it correctly or is it just like built Well. Do you know what I mean? Like the concept of like building it well, so you're not standing in front of a single glazed 12 mil piece of glass versus a triple glazed window. It's like we're just doing it really well. Correct.
[00:19:40] Is like Yeah. It's an, it's a term that we might use as a builder. Yeah. But is it, is it actually, it's like it's a well-built
[00:19:46] Matt: Yeah.
[00:19:46] Devin: Building
[00:19:47] Matt: and you made a comment, I think last week about it being another metric that you just gotta. Follow where we like, you know, architect, it's a design parameter. Yeah.
[00:19:55] Like you, like you don't sit there analyzing all the structural computations mm-hmm. [00:20:00] For the building surveyor or you, you've gotta build within your, your town planning regs. It's just, yeah. It's not the parameter. Well, I think that's, that's more to get the designers
[00:20:07] Hamish: over the line, you
[00:20:07] Matt: know, but even like architects over the line, but even just building surveyors and clients, like, that's just, that's the parameter we've gotta work within, like as a society, not just, I don't think it's fair to put the pressure back on the architects that that's their parameter.
[00:20:17] It should be everyone's parameter.
[00:20:19] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, I think come, I mean. If you wanna do something, you say it, you know, and I think we've, we, we've done it since. Yeah. You know, 2018 was 19 like I kind of. I kind of feel almost a little bit bad. Like you, you are, you are, you are up there like paving the way, and then all of a sudden this fucking punk comes in.
[00:20:34] We did to the podcast
[00:20:36] Devin: and was really loud about passive house. And then, and that's the, that's the interesting thing, right? Um, my whole journey is like, I love seeing other people succeed. Yeah. Right. You know, because I love getting a text message from someone or a phone call saying, Hey, we just did our blower door and we nailed it.
[00:20:52] And like, thanks for your training or thanks for your support. Like, that's what I love because I could. I can do it myself one by one or two by two, [00:21:00] whatever it is. Yeah. But to see the growth of the industry Yeah. Is amazing. I'm sure I remember yourself and Mark standing at the front of my place on a passive house tour.
[00:21:08] Yep. Um, when I had open house and Mark MVH Mark being like, how do I get into this? Like how do we actually get into this more and more we quote jobs and like, how do we actually find more opportunity? And Nick, honestly, you guys are envious. I'm envious of you guys 'cause you're building these amazing buildings.
[00:21:24] And I'm not necessarily anymore. And that's hard, like some ways you said you didn't like building, you said you hated building. No, I mean this
[00:21:31] Hamish: is, this is probably like almost a good segue to kind of get into now. 'cause I would argue that you are having like an exponential impact on the building stock now, particularly in Victoria.
[00:21:44] And you know, as, as you kind of expand nationwide. Of like how many people have you had through this training center? Yeah, like two and a half thousand. Okay, so that's And that's only been here for two years? Yeah, two years. Yeah. Two and two and a half thousand people. I'm one builder building four to five homes a [00:22:00] year.
[00:22:00] Matt's one builder building four to homes, four to five homes a year. Like, and admittedly there's probably groups of people from businesses, so let's just say, yeah, each one, five, conservatively there's a thousand businesses that have come through. Yeah. Who are now going out and building better homes.
[00:22:15] Yeah. So 2020 2021, like absolute hell of a time to be a builder. You know, you're kind of, I remember that time I remember you having these beautiful like, um, uh, Ram Dearth projects going, I was watching on social media. I'm just like, wow. How do I do that stuff? But it's interesting, like you're kind of seeing this image on social media and think fucking Deb's like killing it.
[00:22:40] But you're like, I'm not having fun.
[00:22:41] Devin: Yeah. I think it's 'cause I just was sitting in the office every day solving problems and quoting the next job, dealing with deals. Whereas like what I got passionate about the building is like I was involved with it. I'm involved with the guys on site. Yeah. We implemented Buildertrend like a software so that I could see on a daily basis what was happening across the six sites.[00:23:00]
[00:23:00] Because I'm like, I just can't get there.
[00:23:02] Hamish: Yep.
[00:23:02] Devin: Um, but it's like, yeah. And I look at some of those projects and they're amazing and I'm still good friends with some of those clients and, and that sort of thing, which is great, but it's like I can't sustain this. Um, and that's what really got me to the point where it's like.
[00:23:19] I don't think you can get to the point of burnout. Let burnout, let's call it, or whatever, to be like, I'm in a place that I don't want to be again. Yeah. And now I know, um, where that fence is.
[00:23:30] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:23:30] Devin: Uh, I won't let it get to that point. Um, that was definitely in the building business and I've probably got more passionate about it in the last two or so years because I've got four guys.
[00:23:40] And we've just been ticking over projects one at a time. So you can still build with you if someone approached you. Uh, at this stage, no. No. Okay. Um, I, I love performance membranes. I love what we're doing. I love what we're, um, developing with new products and the journey. We'll just
[00:23:56] Hamish: set your, um, URL if they.
[00:23:58] Google granted it to [00:24:00] the ghost to Ha Shaw. That's right. Sancti all car construction.
[00:24:03] Devin: Um, I had a call last week from a previous client wanting to do it again. Yeah. And look, I'd love to do it for them and in some ways like I could definitely do it. Um, but I just, I also like enjoy what I'm doing here. I'm developing new products.
[00:24:18] We're developing a journey of influencing the building industry to build better, but like for a better long-term built environment. Yeah. Whether that's new products, whether it's methodology. Whatever it is, the journey is like, I really want to get. Um, a better built environment in five years that it's a better outcome for builders.
[00:24:37] It's a better outcome for homeowners, um, in that way. Um, so that's probably like what I'm a bit more passionate about.
[00:24:44] Matt: Yeah.
[00:24:44] Devin: I think what I love the most about granted is the team. Yeah. But you still have that here pro
[00:24:50] Matt: uh, performance membranes. I do
[00:24:51] Devin: now. Yeah. Yeah. And what's beautiful about it is I was able to go to Tazzie for four weeks with a caravan for January and come back Australia Day.
[00:24:59] [00:25:00] Because as a team Yeah. You say Justin Tower as a builder a couple of days and he gave me some crazy court. Um, but as a builder I was honestly like, yeah, my site managers are there, or my carpenters, but like I'm carrying everything myself.
[00:25:12] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:25:13] Devin: Without a really strong partner.
[00:25:15] Hamish: Yeah. Um, I systems would've
[00:25:16] Devin: fallen over.
[00:25:17] Yeah. You gotta implement systems, but you're still there on the other end of the call.
[00:25:21] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:25:21] Devin: Whereas like, so that's where this is like, I've got a team, I've also got Justin. It's really nice to be in a place of. Having support. Yeah. And so growing a business doesn't really scare me, let's say as much as it once
[00:25:34] Hamish: did.
[00:25:35] Well, if you grew, I'll tell you what, if you've grown a reasonably successful building company, I think every other business is easy. Yeah.
[00:25:42] Matt: Sometimes I wish I had a business partner with construction. Like I just feel like, and it's, and then when you get through those humps and you are like, fuck, I just wish there was someone else to share this with right now.
[00:25:50] Yeah. And then you're through it and you're like, no, I'm happy. I'm by myself. I guess. I think,
[00:25:53] Devin: I think in retrospect, to be honest, I should have done that. Um. But we only know these things in [00:26:00] hindsight. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of my. You know, good mates. He moved to Noosa Ruben. He was a site manager with us. I, I didn't know or know business well at that point, but he moved in 20 20, 22,
[00:26:13] Hamish: 1, I I remember when he moved.
[00:26:14] Yeah. I remember talking to you about it and I know that it was a, it was a, it was a challenging time. Painful,
[00:26:19] Devin: but he was like right hand. You know, he was me on the ground and to clients and everything. And I think like bringing someone in, it's not as, it's not scary anymore, but at the time I didn't know that, you know, but that's age and that's the journey.
[00:26:33] Yeah. Um, but he's running his own business and doing great things in Noosa. Yeah. Lucky is he building passive houses. No, he's actually a real estate agent. Oh yeah. He got his real estate license during COVID. So he worked for a builder up there in Noosa. He's like, air leak, air leak, air leak. He went to someone's house and they're like, it's a passive house.
[00:26:50] He's like, this is gonna be interesting 'cause he did passive house with me and uh, to sell as a real estate agent. And he walked in. It's like single place, like, sorry, it's not a passive, I [00:27:00] can't sell it. Is that ventilation? Ventilation system? Nothing. Okay. Had lure windows. Um,
[00:27:06] Hamish: so, so we've touched on performance membranes.
[00:27:08] So, you know, uh, when, when did you start performance membranes? And I know that there's a connection with. PHCP down in ta. How'd that conversation start? Like where?
[00:27:19] Devin: Yeah, so Justin and I, I was essentially just helping guys that Justin was supplying in Victoria 'cause there was too many people wanting to start buying it.
[00:27:27] And so I'd hold some stock at my house and then go and catch up with the builder. Um, and it was PH CCP TAs, essentially. Yeah, I was, Justin was just sort of paying me to, to see someone every so often up here once a month or something. And then I, uh. Said to him like, like, this is like, could be a thing, um, together, let's do it, you know, properly.
[00:27:48] Um, because again, my good wife, Suzanne, she's like, you're doing all this work. You're investing, you're actually making something like why don't you be part of it? Um, and so Justin's like, are you serious? Sort of [00:28:00] thing. I'm like, yeah. And he called me back on Monday and he's like, yep, let's do it. So I think it was late 17 or something like that.
[00:28:06] I reckon
[00:28:07] Matt: that's when I first bought membranes from Justin and he's like. And then you called me about it. I'm like, no, no, I buy it from this guy called Justin. And you're like, no, no, no. I'm with Justin. Like, no, you're not. I need Justin from Tazzie. Like you're in Victoria. Yeah. And the whole concept at that start, I was like, no, but you're a builder.
[00:28:20] And that was probably a point where like builders didn't communicate with other builders and help each other. Yeah. And I think that was almost my first, um, experience of interaction and support. Yeah. I'm like, wait, did this guy, Devon. Yeah. Who wants to help me? Who's another builder? Like what's the catch?
[00:28:33] Devin: Yeah, so that was like 17, 18 'cause we did our first um, child when that sort of all happened. Yeah. In 18. And um, and it was PHTP Vic, so passive house construction products. But every phone call often is like, I want to use the membranes, I wanna use the roof membrane, or I wanna use the tape. 'cause I've heard it's good.
[00:28:53] But I'm not building passive house. So that was a big part of changing from passive house construction products to performance [00:29:00] membranes. 'cause it's not just the passive house system. No. Yes. It's like 42 passive houses. Is it like, yeah. Yeah. So, um, that was the journey. So it was really like, oh, this is gonna be a side hustle.
[00:29:12] It's just gonna be something that'll tick over a side hustle. And um, and then momentum and it kept, kept moving. Building was really busy during COVID we had, um, so I approached a, a friend who was sort of, came back from the States or from England actually, as he was sort of a general manager sort of type thing.
[00:29:29] And he came on with us for about two years, um, two or three years. And um, just to support, 'cause Justin and I couldn't keep up while running our building businesses. And stuff. So, and it is now performance membranes and, um, so it's fun. It's great to have a team. It's great to have the support. It's great to see the industry grow from being like in the first passive house group.
[00:29:50] And I remember getting given at that point in time, a roll of, um, x extra tape and I saved that for my house and stuff like that, you know, but it's like, it was really [00:30:00] interesting to go on that, go on that sort of journey and see the development, um, of what it is today.
[00:30:06] Matt: So I've got a question. You, um, you spoke about, uh, you've had two, two and a half thousand people come through here.
[00:30:14] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Matt: And this is a very maybe question you might know the answer. Do you know your retention on your customers
[00:30:18] Devin: retention rate? Um, it's hard to judge now. Um, but we would say that 70 to 80% of people who came through the training room would use the products. Yeah. At least
[00:30:29] Matt: once. So what I that I was hoping your number was quite highlight that.
[00:30:31] Yeah. 'cause what I'm saying is like, yeah. It. The product obviously works. The people who keep continually coming back mm-hmm. And have 80%, eight outta 10 builders are coming back to use it. The thing
[00:30:41] Devin: is, the builders in tradespeople are like a tactile, and when people experience using the tape or the membranes, they can't.
[00:30:50] Um, unlearn it. Unlearn it. Yeah. And that's why the training room works so well. And the actual description and understanding and explanation being in place. And we [00:31:00] don't, we max it out at like 15 people in our training room. 'cause we want it to be interactive. I want it people to not be scared about asking a question and talking things through.
[00:31:09] Um, so,
[00:31:09] Matt: but even like the product, we've used it forever and even pro climbing, our sponsoring the podcast that we, when we originally spoke about and openly hear about. Product sponsorship. We only wanted to work, uh, a, uh, podcast sponsorship. We only wanted to work with people who we a hundred percent aligned with.
[00:31:24] Yeah. It
[00:31:25] Hamish: wasn't a money grab, it was a, it was a, we, we wanna be aligning ourselves with people with products we actually believe in. Mm-hmm. And I think we've, both of us have got runs on the board from 2019, 2018 and 19 from using the products to, to, to now to play
[00:31:39] Matt: almost
[00:31:40] Hamish: with
[00:31:40] Matt: it.
[00:31:40] Hamish: Like, um, I definitely had to play to play.
[00:31:42] Yeah. And this, this is why I'm, I'm so envious of the. People coming through now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and even we've got an event tomorrow, Dan in Hastings at the Big Bowens, um, uh, rethink, uh, HQ down there and like that, this wasn't there when we started. [00:32:00] How easy
[00:32:00] Matt: is it now? Like
[00:32:01] Hamish: I know you, you were, you were probably even that step, further step behind, like there was, there's no, there was nothing like I had you, I had Justin, I had all these other people that I could.
[00:32:10] Talk to.
[00:32:11] Devin: Yeah. I, I remember buying my windows from Unilock windows and buying them in From Germany? Yeah. For my house. And like, I had no idea how they were gonna turn up, whether they had reveals on 'em or what. Yeah. You know, like, I'd never done this before. But the process
[00:32:25] Matt: is so easy though. It's easy now.
[00:32:27] Devin: Yeah. It's snap, but at that point in time it was like emails. It wasn't like FaceTime. You know, there wasn't, um, zoom or anything like that to have a conversation. Every conversation that I had, um, with Stuart, um, from, um, like he's a great, he's a great fellow, isn't he? Yeah. On the phone or on email, and it's like you don't get that interaction the same way as we do Yeah.
[00:32:47] Today in that trust or understanding.
[00:32:49] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:32:49] Devin: You know, I'm sure now I could probably FaceTime the factory and see them or see get photos of that. Yeah. It just wasn't available. Um, and that's where, uh, having, having some support, like with Justin, I remember being on the [00:33:00] phone to him that many times. It was. I remember asking him, do I use the blue tape or the black tape on the outside of the building?
[00:33:06] I've asked, I've asked you that question before. Which one do you use? I actually was
[00:33:08] Matt: with Dan at Pro Climber last week, and I asked him why. Yeah, and like do you wanna explain the difference?
[00:33:15] Devin: Yeah. So Xdo is basically UV stabilized. So it's made for the external use, whereas Vanna is technically an internal membrane, um, tape.
[00:33:23] But Vanna is used all around the world as external and internal, but Australia and New Zealand have uv. Um, that's not LA anywhere else in the world. So Xstore has been developed for that. So we. But it's the same, the same adhesive, everything like that. It's the same price. So just use the big pack, buy it cheaper, and use it on so we inside or outside.
[00:33:42] So a hundred percent
[00:33:43] Hamish: of the time we use X extra everything. I've never
[00:33:45] Matt: bought the ard. I don't, it's not even in my price catalog on my, my one, it's in the
[00:33:49] Devin: catalog just because worldwide it is the product that's on all the photos, all the documentation. And that's really why it's maintained in the Australian market, because worldwide that's what [00:34:00] it's, you don't wanna,
[00:34:00] Hamish: you don't wanna change the pictures.
[00:34:01] Devin: Well. Germany don't want to change the picture. Yeah, no, that's fair enough. So, so,
[00:34:05] Hamish: so what, like what I'm hearing now, like, and if we fast forward to 2025 now there's like real, there's actually no excuse not to feel better.
[00:34:12] Devin: No,
[00:34:13] Matt: uh, there's not like there, there a, you're actively making a choice not to.
[00:34:17] Hamish: I, I agree.
[00:34:17] And, and it's actually something that I'm gonna talk about tomorrow. You know, the, the people actually have a choice now to build shit. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:24] Devin: Uh, I've got that conundrum at the moment because I'm doing two townhouses. I've got them designed and I'm ready to build them. And I've designed them to passive our standard.
[00:34:34] And it's a way, 'cause I've drunk the Kool-Aid, you could say. Yeah. Right. And I fundamentally believe in the system and I think. Doing developments that are terrible, you can do it for the same price point. It is slightly more expensive. Right. To do it the way that I'm doing it, to passive our standard. But I fundamentally, this believe this is where we'll be in five years.
[00:34:53] Yeah. And I've always been wanting to lead by example, and I'm wanting to be like, there's a better way to do developments. There's a better way to do the [00:35:00] lived environment, but at the same, and so I can't just. Oh, okay. It's probably a hundred thousand over budget for the bank's view. Yes. As a valuation.
[00:35:10] Yeah. Right. But it's like I can't just rip out the one 40 walls and the intel and everything like that because I want to get it to that price point. I'm like, I'm just gonna push it back a little bit. Yeah. To be like, let the, let the pricing catch up. Yeah. To be like, I can't just rip it out just to do it.
[00:35:27] Shit job. I mean, if we look at,
[00:35:28] Hamish: if we look at, you know, 20 20, 20 21 to now that's, that's five years have gone and it kind of feels like, you know, a second ago. Yeah. But it also seems like a really long time let go as well. Yeah. And you look at where the market is now. Mm-hmm. Right? Like the fact that you've got two and a half thousand people that have come through here, that's only gonna double or triple in the next two years.
[00:35:48] Mm-hmm. So. There's more people producing this, there's more awareness in the broader market. Yeah. From homeowners. And I'd argue that, and again, we all live in a bit of a bubble 'cause people are [00:36:00] coming to us for the bubble. That solution, we live in a bubble, but, but I think the bubble's growing. It has feel the bubble's
[00:36:05] Matt: growing.
[00:36:06] I'm gonna, I'm gonna argue I agree, but I'm gonna argue the opposite side. Is it like from my
[00:36:11] Devin: side as a supplier? Yes. Yeah. I think it's has a hundred percent because there's a lot of guys who dunno what intel is. For an ex, as an example, as an air tightness membrane. Yeah. But they know what a good WRB is.
[00:36:22] Yep. And a fully sealed in it. But that's a great start. But that's, that's a great, but that's a ability of better conversation. Yeah. I, I,
[00:36:28] Matt: I agree. Mm-hmm. Is that lifting the passive house side of things? Because ultimately that's the, the gold sticker. I, I
[00:36:36] Hamish: think, I, I personally think we should stop. Focusing on the passive house thing.
[00:36:41] 'cause I actually feel it's a bit of a barrier. Mm-hmm. And I think we need to just look at durable, healthy buildings. Yeah. And 'cause we can get a durable, healthy building that's not a passive house. Yeah. We can get a durable, healthy building that's just got extra saana on it. Mm-hmm. But as a builder, you need to understand what the risks are if you're not putting an intelligent membrane on.
[00:36:58] Mm-hmm. Or if you're not [00:37:00] managing your ventilation. Right. Yeah. But I think that's where like all these young builders coming up now. With all the information that you are doing and all the information that we are putting out and all the information the SBA is putting out and all the other huge amount of people giving up their time.
[00:37:15] Joel se Cameron, Monroe, like all of those people builders have the information to make decisions around where is the risk point. Yeah, it's just
[00:37:23] Matt: not builders though. On a building permit goes to engineers license number, the architects license number, the builder's license number, it's not far off. A trade's gonna put their license number on it.
[00:37:34] It's just becomes this and we Well, that,
[00:37:36] Hamish: that, that, that's probably more recent. That's what I'm, yeah. So I'm like,
[00:37:39] Matt: what I'm saying is like, we're all liable here. Yeah. Like, and that's a huge Yeah. That's gonna play out in the court somehow. Traditionally, like it's been the builders hold the Yeah, I reckon it's a building surveys that hold the, they're the ones that hold the bucket.
[00:37:53] And that's what I think
[00:37:54] Hamish: what we're, what we're looking at here. Behind us. The sex asana is probably the [00:38:00] cheapest insurance policy
[00:38:00] Devin: that you are ever
[00:38:01] Hamish: gonna take out. As a builder,
[00:38:02] Devin: what, what is 80% of VA and DDRV claims? Water, water. That could be bathrooms. And we are coming, the standard has changed in regards to bathrooms.
[00:38:11] You've got water stops, you've got flood testing. A lot of guys are starting to do and that sort of thing. Essentially outside of that, it's like you got water leaks from cladding and windows and that sort of thing, and like claddings. To be honest, they're tested with a membrane and a lot of the time it's our membranes behind that because they know our membranes work properly.
[00:38:29] Yeah. But they want to get the certificate saying their cladding is compliant. But it's the system, right? So there's a lot of claddings that leak, but they're relying on the WRB behind, I think.
[00:38:39] Matt: Are you in the in install guide now? So like for example, and I'll use a product that's James Hardy, for example.
[00:38:46] Devin: Yeah.
[00:38:46] Matt: Behind where they've got their own product that they have. Yeah. But would they say, Hey. To make our system warranted as per the install guide, you have to now use the pro climber.
[00:38:54] Devin: There's multiple products that say you have to use X Designer behind the cladding. I'm pretty sure where the techs are one of those where [00:39:00] the techs has it now.
[00:39:00] Yeah. And I
[00:39:01] Matt: think Abodo Cladd has it eex.
[00:39:04] Devin: There's heaps and heaps of claddings that, um, have it,
[00:39:07] Hamish: um, which, which makes sense. Yeah. Like, and it's not just, you know, we're not just, you know, standing behind a, you know, pretty
[00:39:12] Devin: blue backdrop here. Like, this shit works, but it, it, it's like, it's also that the testing has started to say you have to specify the membrane that was used, whereas there was a bit of a loophole saying that supplies were doing the test.
[00:39:26] Ours, but they were saying you have to just use a, a membrane that's a WRB behind it. Class four or something. Yeah, class four. And so it's, it wasn't. Giving the full picture. Yeah. But now that's actually revver reversing and there's actually, which is great for us in the long term, but it's also great for the building that people are using the right system, complete system.
[00:39:45] People need
[00:39:46] Matt: to understand cladding doesn't protect your building from water. Mm-hmm. I think that's probably the one myth that we've all grown up with as a builder. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or tradie or architect or anyone. This,
[00:39:54] Hamish: this, this is your weather, this, this is, this is your line of defense. Yeah. And
[00:39:58] Matt: the, the fact that like when we [00:40:00] build now, it's, it allows us to.
[00:40:02] What we're about to go into summer here. Yeah. Um, there's gonna be a few 35 degree days. Uh, it's also gonna go to everyone's in Christmas, having time off for probably by the time we listen to this four weeks and their frames can get wet. But also it gives 'em a chance when they get back to we can keep working.
[00:40:18] Because if it's 35 degrees, we've got shade. We've got a whole house of shade. Yeah. I, I'm
[00:40:21] Hamish: actually gonna have two projects like we think we're gonna get tin on. We're not gonna get flashings on, but we think across, you know, project in Ham, a project in, um, a furniture. We'll get the building wraps on.
[00:40:32] Mm-hmm. And I, and I know I can go away for three weeks at Christmas time and know that those buildings are my
[00:40:39] Matt: Instagram, I think post video tonight. Okay. It's, I'm actually like going like the whole, like the best thing you can buy yourself for Christmas as a builder is put this on your house. Yeah. And for also your clients long term.
[00:40:50] Devin: Yeah. We're wrapping the Christmas present. A couple of years ago. I did an Exte big extension and we had it plastered. With just meant on the roof.
[00:40:59] Hamish: Yeah. Oh no. [00:41:00] We've, we've, we've, we've, pla we, we have, we have had cladding going on and plaster going on, on, I had join, I've had
[00:41:05] Matt: joinery on walls, painting without pizza cladding on.
[00:41:08] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:41:09] Matt: Um, which is, so, it's, it's concept fun that it works. Yeah.
[00:41:13] Hamish: So, so, um, over the last few weeks actually, you've had some new products come out and I think like the, the, the name changing to performance membranes has probably allowed you to kind of then expand into. I guess other product offerings as well.
[00:41:28] And you know, behind us we see all these ventilated cavities, which, sorry, that all the cavity closes. All the cavity closes and you know, ventilated cavities become a thing, right? Yeah. Everyone's putting ventilated cavity. Everyone loves showing that on social media and that is awesome. Like if you go back three years ago, it might have been a couple of us doing it.
[00:41:44] Now everyone's doing thing. Treat a pine or not treat a pine shut up. It's awesome, right? It's really great. But, you know, ask Justin, um, these, these cavity closes, like these are. Not only allowing proper ventilation, but great for bushfire areas. [00:42:00] Great for vermin and roading control. Yeah. So yeah. Other than the cavity closes, are there other things kind of, um, yeah.
[00:42:06] Bubbling away at performance membranes?
[00:42:08] Devin: Yeah, so there are probably, Justin and I have probably about five or six products that we're developing. Um, I can't say that'll be the end either, but five or six that we're developing at the moment, which will be. Performance membranes products, cavity closes was one of those.
[00:42:23] But we have quite, um, these five or six others that were in development. So over the next 12 months, we, more than luck, we'll launch three or four of those. Awesome. Um, but it's really like hearing, and from my experience, it's like. I remember doing my first four 10 houses, Suzanne and I did for ourselves, wrapped it with foil, super tight.
[00:42:39] 'cause I was passionate and stuff. And then putting EPS straight on it. And I just am like, I think those buildings are still standing all good right now. But um, for me it's like we developed this and I want to be the solution based approach. Yeah. And Justin and I being builders. We understand to talk the talk, we understand the buildups, we understand the details Well no, you know, [00:43:00] do that
[00:43:00] Hamish: You understand risk.
[00:43:01] Yeah.
[00:43:01] Devin: How, how do we, um, fix a, find a solution for a problem that's in the industry or, um, that builders come up against? 'cause it's always gonna be that way as a new technology or a new standard comes out as the NCC comes with new, new standards. It's like, how do we keep finding solutions for these changes?
[00:43:21] Yeah. And that's, I guess, what the focus is and having a team. Pro climber essentially rolling a lot more now. Um, Justin and I are able to become a lot more again, um, innovative. Yeah. From where we were with pro climber when it started. We were innovative of bringing it to market to Australia and we can essentially continue on that, um, pro climber journey, but we can actually, what else goes in that built Yeah.
[00:43:48] Envelope or anything like that, that we can, what goes, what goes in that
[00:43:50] Hamish: structure? Like what, what, what is the best world built? And I think, um. You know, there's builders like us and Carlin and the VHS and the Dylans, and you know, and we are like always talking to you guys saying, [00:44:00] Hey, I think this is a good idea.
[00:44:02] Can you guys
[00:44:03] Matt: look into
[00:44:03] Hamish: it?
[00:44:03] Matt: Mm-hmm. We have the answers now they're all here. Like we, yeah. Do our, how much better will can our buildings actually get if we already use the pro climber system? Can,
[00:44:13] Devin: do we need to worry about anything else? So like in 20 20, 21, I was done with building, but I already had like seven contracts signed.
[00:44:22] Reuben finished up with me and I was like, I can't opt outta this. I'm not a cafe that can say I'm not selling hot food tomorrow. I'm just doing pastries and coffee. Like I was done. Right. And what happened? I explained it like a barge. It, it takes a long time for change. Yeah, and if I look at what performance membranes or PHCP started in with 2018, selling to a couple of you guys and a couple of roofers or clatters who are interested and maybe a pallet a month.
[00:44:52] To now at least a 40 foot container a month. That's where you can see the industry changing. [00:45:00] It's not, it's, if you look at the journey and probably over the last 18 months, it's gone from, you know, we're doubling our product. It's going to market, but that's, that's because there's more. You know, awareness and the bubble, if you wanna call it that, is growing, changing bubble burst in a sense that like in a good sense, yeah.
[00:45:20] Um, it's a matter of like being, I always pictured being at the start of passive house as being at the start of the wave.
[00:45:26] Hamish: Yeah.
[00:45:26] Devin: I always pictured being like the person who's like really going on this journey to be at the start of the way things are gonna change. I always say to people, I'm not emu egg farming.
[00:45:36] You are the earthquake. You're the earthquake that creates
[00:45:37] Matt: a tsunami. Yeah.
[00:45:37] Devin: I'm not emu egg farming. I'm not doing some, you know, random. Fidget spinners. I explained that to Justin once. I'm like, Justin, we're not selling fidget spinners. And at the time he didn't know what they were. He probably should need one J
[00:45:52] Hamish: Justin definitely needs
[00:45:53] Devin: spinners.
[00:45:53] And then, uh, he looked it up after we had that meeting 'cause I was like, you know, I was talking about getting this facility in training facility. What you have to
[00:45:59] Hamish: [00:46:00] get performance
[00:46:00] Devin: membranes.
[00:46:01] Hamish: Branded fidget. Yes.
[00:46:03] Devin: Get, get rid of the rulers. Just get fi fi spinners. I would use it for sure. You know, that's the journey of being like.
[00:46:09] It's trusting that this is the way that it's gonna go, um, but also being like I'm not, um, just selling something that's not a good outcome. Yeah. You know, fundamentally it is the best thing for the building, the homeowner and the industry long term. So what
[00:46:24] Matt: would you change then to create to, to not fast track this?
[00:46:29] Um, bubble. Mm-hmm. Like, how, what, yeah. What would you change to create widespread adoption of better building? Oh, that's,
[00:46:36] Devin: that's a tough question. Mm-hmm. Um, I honestly believe that like what the SBA are doing is what I never had. And that's a massive thing to actually have collaboration and conversation.
[00:46:50] If I was like, could I have one thing? I would say that if I could have like the SBA fully funded by government so that there can [00:47:00] actually be people out there. Going and teaching at TAFEs. Mm. Going and continually educating architects because essentially where do architects get their information from?
[00:47:09] Like, let's, how do we cross pollinate these industries of the builder, the architect, the supplier? How do we continue to have that conversation? 'cause they're all almost seen in isolation. So that's essentially what industry bodies have been, but poor Phil and Vinu. At the Master Builders. He's been one man in sustainability, in the master builders for the, since I won the award with them in 2011.
[00:47:33] Smokes and
[00:47:34] Matt: mirrors, Hey, we're sustainable. Just, but we really don't care. It's,
[00:47:36] Devin: I would, I would love them to actually invest in that and actually have some, put some like skin in the game to be like, this is the future of the way things are going. I don't know. The HAA, I don't know where they're at. I don't know.
[00:47:48] Other industry, I'm not a member of either. It
[00:47:49] Hamish: is, it is. It is interesting though. I mean, obviously I'm reasonably close to what's happening in SBA A at the moment. Yeah. Um, and there are some really great conversations I've been having, but you've hit the nail on the head. [00:48:00] We're seven busy builders. Mm-hmm.
[00:48:02] Right. And we've now got a, um, part-time COO Beck, but we're still, we've still got so much that we want to achieve, but our, we, we, we hit a ceiling with. What I can do with what Brian, so like what all the other guys can do. So you're absolutely right. We need some kind of funding and I'd say it's a couple hundred grand.
[00:48:24] Mm-hmm. To be like, if we got that from the government. We could then employ people to really, like,
[00:48:31] Matt: it's just an investment. That return will come back to them.
[00:48:33] Hamish: And, and look, I don't wanna let too, you know, catch outta the bags, but there will be chapters, so. Yeah. You know, we we're, there are people in Tassie and Adelaide and, you know, um, Sydney, like wanting mm-hmm.
[00:48:46] These events to be over there. And I'm just like. Just be patient. Yeah. You know, there's only so much we do and we want to do it right and we're not running out to, to roll it out really quickly just to happen. Like we want it to be done. Right. Yeah. But we do need money and [00:49:00] you know. Yeah. Performance membranes.
[00:49:01] And I don't wanna hijack the conversation too much, but you know, you guys have been big supporters for a while and you guys are very generous with your contribution. And trust me, that money does not go into my fucking pocket. I tell you right now,
[00:49:13] Matt: it's like anything government need to do r and d Yeah.
[00:49:16] To then fund it. It comes back to them multiple ways. There's a reduce, uh, reduction in buildings failing. There's a reduction in the healthcare system because people aren't getting sick in their homes, like mm-hmm. That a hundred, 200 grand will save them millions and millions of dollars.
[00:49:32] Devin: Yeah, I think very quickly, like to be honest, like the industry would benefit in such a big way by having some champions.
[00:49:37] Yeah. You know, some who are actually on the road there for a phone call. Yeah. There for a conversation. This is what I'm wanting to do for homeowners to actually reach out and actually get some information really quickly and easily. Yeah. Like those. You know, you call it a, it's not a, it's just an industry champion, uh, to, to, for a better built environment instead of just companies, let, let's say a sustainability [00:50:00] manager.
[00:50:00] Yeah. It's like, let's take it out of that and be like, let's change industry, not just this project.
[00:50:05] Hamish: So, and, and what I will say it, it's like sustainable Bills Alliance is not the answer. Mm-hmm. Like if you look at what the name is, it's an alliance of whoever. Yeah. Whoever wants to be a part of it. Like, all we're trying to do is be a conduit for.
[00:50:18] Other people to jump on board and other people to get involved. Yeah. And you know, like we're always keen to hear what other people have to offer and like, we're getting this, you talked about this wave, the wave's getting bigger, there's more people coming along to it. And I know, but. Sort of jumping on a, a little bit of a tangent here, but, um, I think it just showcases that there is a thirst for building better.
[00:50:39] Yeah. Um, but it, we, we need that injection of something. Yeah. Bigger than what we've got to really make an impact. And you know, the fact that you got, as I said before, two and a half thousand people coming through here now. I mean, I'm, I can't wait to see the size of this thing, you know, in the next two or three years.
[00:50:55] 'cause you're gonna outgrow this pretty quickly. Yeah, that's on the cards, that's for sure. Hope
[00:50:59] Matt: that's a bit closer to my [00:51:00] side. We've gotta jump into our, uh, MEG team. Mindful moment. Australia's leading apprenticeship provider.
[00:51:08] Hamish: We signed up another apprentice yesterday, and this particular apprentice in his third year going into fourth year, uh, had, was really struggling with one of his past employers and.
[00:51:20] Um, also at, at tafe. Mm-hmm. And this all came out yesterday and I'm, and I'm hoping, you know, I'm not gonna name any names, but I'm hoping that, you know, he doesn't mind me talking about this, but chatting with the guys from, uh, MEGT yesterday, there's actually some funding available for businesses. And I didn't know about this until yesterday.
[00:51:40] We all know about the. Um, incentive program for apprentices. There's actually a, and I hate the word, but there's actually a, uh, a disability funding available for employers, um, which includes neurodivergent people, a, SD, um, A DHD, and um, dyslexia. Yeah. [00:52:00] Now, if we look at the industry broadly. I guarantee there is much more neurodivergent people in here than there is actually neurotypical people.
[00:52:09] Yep. Now we are gonna apply for this funding 'cause it is two to $300 a week, which we can reinvest back into our staff members. Yep. And we can have the support and we can know that we can take a little bit more time to adapt the way that we're delivering, um, training to individual people within our organizations.
[00:52:29] Yep. And I think I didn't know about this until yesterday. So MEGT, um, thank you for bringing it up. It isn't a a federally, we've gotta get '
[00:52:35] Matt: em on to get, talk about all these incentives. It's a federally
[00:52:37] Hamish: funded, it's not just MEGT, but it's federally funded thing. So that's my, uh, mindful moment. So if you haven't.
[00:52:43] If you don't know about it, definitely look into it, because I guarantee if you're a business owner in the construction industry, one of your apprentices is, yeah. Um, I'm gonna say spicy. Spicy, yeah.
[00:52:54] Devin: One, one thing about apprentices, I often hear trades say, you know, there's no good [00:53:00] carpenters coming through, there's no good plumbers, or that sort of thing, where our own worst energy enemy, 'cause we don't wanna commit to an apprenticeship.
[00:53:06] Journey or an apprentice. Yeah. It's like what is the future of the industry gonna look like if you don't invest in having an apprentice today? This is the government system
[00:53:14] Matt: prom, though. They're wanting to spit out. Three apprenticeships. Yeah. And fast track it. So the numbers look good, but long term it fucks everything.
[00:53:21] Devin: But builders and the way the industry's built is like, we often will have like a subbie, um, come on. Or we want carpenters to get the job done, but we don't invest in the actual apprentice from the start. I've got, I know a guy at the moment who's got two of my previous apprentices working for him, and he loves it.
[00:53:37] He's offsite because he's like. They're awesome. Yeah. But it's like, it's because there was an investment from the start. Yeah. If you want the long-term reward of having a good industry, then invest at the start and get an apprentice that you train and who can watch you and go on the journey.
[00:53:51] Hamish: And I, and I've, I've actually said this a number of times, I actually think there's also a disconnect of builders or lead carpenters or qualified [00:54:00] carpenters, uh, of.
[00:54:01] Taking on apprentices, not knowing how to teach 'em. Mm-hmm. Like, we're not teachers. Yeah. So there actually needs to be a program mm-hmm. To teach the trainers. Train the trainer. Train the trainer. In my opinion, there needs to be a trainer, trainer, train the trainer,
[00:54:13] Matt: and only certain people should be able to take on apprentices.
[00:54:15] Trainer. You, you do. You should have to have a certain. Period of education or level of education, just not a cert three to stop what should be part of the cert four. Yeah, yeah. Like a cert. The issue I have is you can't be a fourth year carpenter getting a, becoming a carpenter and then you go getting a first year.
[00:54:31] You still got, that's, you've just starting your learning at a fourth year apprentice. Yeah.
[00:54:34] Hamish: Yeah. Oh, we've just solved all the problems. So
[00:54:37] Matt: thank you for coming on. Um. I'll speak on behalf of Hamish. She's someone that we've both looked up to over the last 5, 6, 7 years of our journey. Definitely getting to where we are.
[00:54:47] Um, you've the amount of support that you've gave us. Um, we can't ever repay. So thank you on that behalf. No, thank you. To get in contact. You, you are the Victorian distributor of the Proclama [00:55:00] products. That's correct, yeah. So, um, give a yell out to Dev and Justin, um, social media performance membranes. Yep.
[00:55:09] Uh,
[00:55:09] Devin: Instagram's performance membrane. Oz. Um, e allows our website's membrane stop build. I'm not your OnlyFans. Gotta stop
[00:55:17] Matt: asking that someone, one day he's gonna say, he's gonna swing it out. I really hope it's not dead. And it's Dan Sue sitting right behind us. Dan, his face, who's next on the podcast, he's like, oh, I finally can answer that one.
[00:55:30] Awesome. Thanks Dave. Awesome. Thank you.