Eternally curious and staying hungry with Chin Chin’s executive chef
There's something exhilarating about diving into a pool of unknowns. Whether we're reviewing plans for a new project or Ben Cooper is creating a new dish, the thrill of creation emerges from the same curiosity that pushes us beyond what we already know. In our latest conversation with Ben, the executive chef at Melbourne's iconic Chin Chin restaurant, we unearthed profound lessons on staying curious, leading teams, and blending passions with our work.
Embracing Criticism and Growing from It
Criticism is a staple in any creative profession, be it in the kitchen or on a construction site. Ben shared his journey of learning to separate critique from personal failure. It's a lesson he encourages every chef, or tradie to embrace: criticism isn't a negative force but a belief that someone has faith in your abilities to do better. As leaders, encouraging an environment where criticism becomes a stepping stone rather than a stumbling block can spark growth and innovation within our teams.
Passion as a Driving Force
Ben’s narrative is fueled by passion, a concept that resonates deeply with us. He considers cooking not just as a profession but as a gift, a chance to make people happy. It's the same spark that ignites our work as builders, where each project becomes a landmark of collaborative effort and creativity. Aligning work with one's passion turns daily tasks into significant accomplishments, sealing the bond between personal satisfaction and professional success.
Constructing a Learning Environment
In any industry, creating a conducive environment for learning is paramount. Ben believes in mentoring new chefs by immersing them in the culture and values of their workplace, encouraging them to park preconceived notions and embrace the norms of their new environment. For us, this approach is echoed in our apprenticeships, where the best learnings emerge from unlearning old habits to make way for innovative practices. The mantra is simple: stay hungry, stay curious.
Fail Forward, Fail Upward
Failure, as Ben describes it, is less of a defeat and more of a lesson. It's a perspective that we've come to value immensely. Whether it's a new recipe not making it to the menu at Chin Chin or a mistake on site, every 'failure' shapes our path to excellence and underlines that no task is ever done or perfect. It's about refining the imperfect into an art form.
The parallels are clear. Whether you're picking up a hammer or a ladle, the drive to create, to continuously learn, and to merge personal passion with work is universal. Our chat with Ben Cooper reinforced that every industry, no matter how different, speaks the same language of curiosity and creativity at its core.
LINKS:
Thanks to Hip Vs Hype for having us
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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C0020: [00:00:00] Ben. Criticism, especially in the food world can be quite brutal. What's the most savage piece of feedback you've ever received, and how did you turn that negativity into something constructive?
like, I've been
Ben: for 30 odd years, right?
Matt: Yeah.
Ben: Which is no
short amount of
time.
C0020: And that's, that's in a restaurant that's not at home beforehand
either.
Ben: that's restaurant Restaurant cooking. Yeah.
C0020: cooking
Ben: one of
the passion
based creative art
forms. Yeah. Right.
And
intrinsically, anytime you're dealing with a passion
based creative art
form, you,
are linked emotionally to your
output. Yeah. So it
can really
C0020: nail
Ben: and, and pull you back
from
what you wish your delivery to
be.
C0020: Because I, I'm assuming it can also be like really constructive. If someone says something, you're like, actually thanks for that. That's really like, nice. But then it's like, that was shit. I hated that. Why did you cook that?
Ben: Once you get your head around it.
Yeah.
C0020: And so for
me
it
took a
Ben: long time for me to learn how to separate criticism.
From
my perceived notion
of
failure.
C0020: [00:01:00] And what's the worst criticism? Is it the average mom and dad that comes into the restaurant, or is it the food critique
Ben: the, the heaviest criticism you can ever receive for, for me personally, is from someone that you love the most, or someone that you respect the most, or that you admire, right? Because you've already added weight to their opinion.
And so when that opinion is negative, it is like. Tripoli heavy.
Matt: And do you remember the first time you got that and then like that, that feedback that you weren't expecting or you didn't want to hear?
Ben: you sort of, it just flows right throughout the career. Like you, the first time you put up a staff meal, or the first time you create a dish and you, and you head chef is like, you know, that's.
Not bad, but we, that's not going anywhere near the menu. 'cause that's not good enough for the guests to eat. , that sort of stuff like flows. But like, then you start to evolve through the ranks and you get more senior and your name starts to become the name that's on the door and the, the, the reputation of the place.
And then critics start coming in. And then when you've got critics saying things, then you've got [00:02:00] friends saying things. Then you've got. Staff and owners and managers saying things, then you've got like walls of criticism potentially. Right?
Matt: So day you filled with criticism, now you are managing
Ben: wall. It has, it has the potential to be filled with criticism.
Yes.
Matt: And how do you go about making sure that then doesn't happen?
Ben: Well, the, no, it's not about not letting it happen. So this was my learning. The learning was that criticism is not a negative.
Matt: Yeah.
Ben: Criticism is there to show you that people have faith that you can do better. and in learning that it changed everything for me.
So when I started at Chin, chin, which has been a huge restaurant, not only for Melbourne, but for hospitality industry in general and for the Australian dining experience. Chris is like, he's probably the, the best boss I've ever had. He is. Absolutely driven, absolutely knowledgeable, has this insane awareness of what the guest wants and what they'll enjoy.
And he understands how to deliver. [00:03:00] And when I started putting dishes up for him and he was like, yep, that one's great. That one's great. That one's crap. That one's not going anywhere near the menu. This one's on the menu. You need to take that off. Is he
Hamish: a chef? It
Ben: was. He's not, but he has a food background, right?
he's a smart guy. And. The first 12 months was like real, like getting battered around the head with a hammer, and it was, and it was almost debilitating, like I was, and I was letting it impact me and I realized this role has the potential to be your dream role.
This role has the potential to take your career further than you've ever imagined if you can get your head around this and if you can get your head around the criticism and turn it into a positive, everything will change.
Matt: And do you think you have accessed your full capability yet? if you are on, put a scale of one to a hundred, have you hit a hundred percent yet?
Ben: I like to believe that there is no such thing as a glass ceiling. And that you are only ever looking at what can become next. there's [00:04:00] no roof. There is no 100%. I also believe there's no perfection, a lot of, especially in our industry, a lot of chefs talk about the search for perfection and the chasing of perfection.
I don't believe perfection is a thing. Like if for perfection to be true, it means that once you reach it, you're there, you're done. Which would then suggest to me that you no longer have to try. But I always wanna try. I want to be eternally curious.
Matt: Your worst meal is your last meal you made, sort of thing.
Ben: A hundred percent. It's like your worst building, the last building you built. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And for me, also the notion that, and I, I learned this through cooking as well it was another epiphany moment in the kitchen where I'd been a bit heavy. verbally with a staff member and I'd said, you know, that's not good enough.
That's shit. What are you doing? We can't serve that. And in my head it was ticking through going, if you cook with love, you can taste it in the food. The opposite of that must be true. So if you cook with love and you can taste in the food, if I'm [00:05:00] cooking with anger or frustration, or if I'm cooking with stress, or if I'm cooking with any of those other emotions, that also must be true and you must be able to taste that in the food.
So I realized that in that moment, like the opposite of anything is also active in any given moment.
That leads to the way I run the kitchen. It leads to the style of food that I cook, it leads to the delivery that I, that I create. You know, like Chin Chin became this incredible opportunity because it's an insanely busy restaurant
Hamish: it is. So I just want, like, I wanna just maybe take one step back and maybe just like formally introduce you, everyone.
So what is your role at Chin Chin? And for everyone who lives in Melbourne, if you don't fucking know what Chin, chin is, you're under a rock. You are living under a rock. Like I've known Chin Chin, fuck, how long have I been alive? Right? Did you know Chin Chin before? Yeah. Well before Ben. Yeah, totally.
Well before Ben. And, um, what amazes me about that restaurant and, and I'm sure it's had its iterations and, and you know, [00:06:00] updates and stuff like that. But correct me if I'm wrong, essentially the model of Chin Chin hasn't changed much. Hasn't changed. It hasn't. Well, there you go. It hasn't changed. For surely for a restaurant to do that, that's a really unique
Ben: thing.
It's a rarity within our industry. I think it's a rarity within almost any industry. Like longevity of, of trade is a, is an amazing thing and an amazing opportunity. Right? and it teaches you a lot of things. It teach like the things that you do in one year compared to the things that you can do with 10 years of that same experience are completely different.
So Chin, chin was, uh, in the, in the early days, was this insanely busy restaurant like beyond. Melbourne expectations.
Hamish: I was it, was it tr was it trying to, uh, mimic or model anything like, 'cause obviously you, you, you're Southeast Asian flavor kind of thing. It's Southeast
Ben: Asian leaning. It is predominantly, largely Thai.
Hamish: Yeah.
Ben: Um, it is Thai food's the [00:07:00] best, isn't it? It just so happens to be like the, the food that I've spent the vast majority of my career cooking, and it's the food that I love, Yeah. But also living in London for five years and working in restaurants that were doing five, 600 covers a night, made my.
Path into that kitchen. Different as well because, and for those, there's not, that
Hamish: don't have any context around that five and 600 covers. It is an insane amount of food to go out.
Ben: It is. However, at Chin Chin, we can do 1200 covers in the night. Yeah.
Hamish: But again, that's
Ben: an
Hamish: insane
Ben: amount of food. It is an incredibly large amount of food.
Right? Yeah. life is a series of dots, and you can choose to connect them any which way you want, and you can come back to dots that you may have passed. Later on and realized, hey, that's now an important.to me. But the dots for me were, what's my purpose? My purpose is making people happy.
What is my gift? My gift is cooking because it's something that comes naturally to me. My first day in the kitchen was, and always will be one of the greatest days of my [00:08:00] life. it was the first time. I felt completely at purpose like, like completely at home. I felt like I belonged and I'd spent a lot of my life feeling like I didn't belong.
I didn't feel like an outcast, and I didn't feel alone, but I just hadn't found the place I belonged to yet. And the kitchen I belonged, right? So people, so the dots were purpose, make people happy, gift cooking, and then busy restaurant. It just magnifies the whole thing. And you get to spend every day delivering on your promise.
And the promise is we want everyone to leave with the absolute best experience they can, and we spend every day working on that. We realize we're lucky to have a volume of guests coming through the door. For us to have that opportunity and we work really fucking hard to ensure that we deliver on it.
Matt: so give you context on how well you're delivering that. This is just a Google basic Google Jin [00:09:00] seven, 7,600 reviews, averaging 4.2. I think that is insane. It's ridiculous,
Hamish: So, I, I just wanna just, just land on something just for a second. Like, have a building podcast, right?
So what are we talking about? People are probably wondering why the fuck we're talking about cooking, but I'll tell you why. what you've probably just heard from Ben before is such an incredible amount of passion. Now I've had the privilege of getting to know Ben really, really well. Over the past two to three years.
We, we excise together, we eat together. I'm really fortunate that I've got this group of guys that I happen to train with that I've got the most amazing connection with.
And I was really motivated to get Ben on because. The passion that Ben is talking about now is the passion that Ben actually brings to every interaction that you have with him. And I actually wanted to showcase that on this podcast. And the, you, you, you telling about your purpose there. Purpose is making [00:10:00] people happy.
Like what a fucking amazing way to describe you being a chef. Yeah. Like it's just. It, it blows me away. And I think there's so many lessons in there, regardless of whether you're a chippy, a plumber, a architect, designer, whatever. There's lessons in your story and the way that you conduct yourself in life, which I feel everyone should hear.
Ben: Yes. Yeah. part of that is, Human nature is, and this goes back to your piece about criticism, right? we have a desire to be somewhat infallible we believe we won't make mistakes, There'll be no error in our judgment, and there'll be no error in our delivery.
but humans are incredibly fallible and it's, it's actually what makes us unique and beautiful. it's what separates us from just being another sentient being on the planet. And it places us in a unique field where if we lean into it, everything changes. Like I asked [00:11:00] a, one of my staff members the other day, she was having a, a pretty hard day and.
We, we discussed the notion of failure, and I said to her, what's failure? And, and she's such a wonderful chef. She's, she's like an absolute high performer, delivers above and beyond on everything, right? said, oh, well, I didn't hit the mark. And I, I feel like I've let people down and I, you know, this and that, and failure is this.
And, I said, okay, cool, sure, but what really is failure? all those things aside, what is failure? And she sat with it for a bit and she looked at me and she said, I, I guess maybe it's just another lesson. And I was like, bingo, right. There it is. A hundred percent failure is for the large number of society.
It is a negative experience, but failure is life's gift telling you [00:12:00] that you're not quite there yet, but you will, you can deliver more than that. You can do things differently. the notion that we would get everything right the first time is quite frankly, ridiculous.
And failure allows us to see a better path or, or to find a better way and to stay hungry, like to stay in the game and keep moving forward. And so we, we shared this moment and, and she really clicked with her. And, and it was beautiful. 'cause like I said, she's a high performer. And, and in that high performance thing, I said to her, the problem with being a high performer is you expect you're gonna excel at everything.
Because you do, because the vast majority of your life is spent going, tick, tick, tick, you tick. Always been the best in the room. Tick. Yeah. so then when you do fail, it's like a, it's not just a little step down, it's a huge step
Hamish: down. I, I've just put three words in a line here and it's failure. It's lesson and then is experience.
So you can't have [00:13:00] experience without those first two things. But you say passion. Yeah. If you don't have
Matt: passion, I'm a big believer if you don't have passion, you don't go anywhere in your industry.
Hamish: Passion is a big one. Maybe we'll just sort of put that in brackets there, but like I think it's just understanding, you know, whenever you fail.
Fuck, people are gonna fail. Right? You are gonna fail if you're not failing. You're not trying. There's this whole, you know, it's a bit cliche, but I've got one of my staff members at work, right? He hates failing. Like he, he is a high performer, you know, he's a high achiever.
We had some water leaks on a project And it was happening in, in the same corners of every part of the room. And I'm like, I almost guarantee there's a problem here that you are gonna solve. That's never gonna happen again. So what an amazing opportunity now to know what not to do next time. Yeah.
He's breeding himself up about it and I'm like, okay, have you figured out what's going on? He goes, yep. And he said, but I'm, but I'm so upset that I got this wrong. And I'm like, why?
Ben: It's an opportunity to learn more.
Hamish: you say it all the time. You're a sum of
Ben: all your fuck
Hamish: ups. Oh, I'm the sum of all the [00:14:00] time that I've fucked up, and
Ben: I'm pretty sure you'll remember a conversation that we had maybe six months ago, maybe eight months ago, and I shared this with this chef.
I said, from now on, failure will no longer be a negative connotation. We fail upwards. For fail forwards. Fail upwards. Yeah. Yeah, right. We fail upwards. And so that's, that's what we aim to do. We aim to fail upwards because when we fail upwards, you land forward.
Matt: So you must have a ton of people apply to work in your kitchens.
And how do you find, and how, what makes you pick the best to then work in your kitchen?
Ben: the best person on paper is not always the best chef, and the best appearing chef is not always the best chef. Sometimes the best chef is the hungriest chef, or sometimes the best chef is the person that is most at ease with being. Shown that they don't know much and that there is a lot to learn. And so the, the rule in the kitchen, and, and I'm fortunate to work with an amazing [00:15:00] team of chefs, senior senior chefs who all share this same similar set of values, is that everyone is valid until they prove themselves not.
Matt: where I'm getting at with that is like, you must get so many amazing applicants and I.
You also have apprentices? Yes. So then how do you go find that apprentice? Because it's, it's the golden ticket. Like the them coming to work in your kitchen is setting them up for life. Yes. then you'd get, like, how do you pick A from B? Or is it a culture fit? Do do you bring them in for a aim? Like who's gonna fit best, to the team, or is it just like, 'cause at that point it's just on pen and paper.
Ben: it's all of those things. Plus other things. we do a lot of work with the, with the schools in Melbourne. where we, and in Sydney where we sort of cooking schools. Yeah. Where we, we go and we'll do dinners and lunches and, and create menus and we'll do the, the Great Chefs program and those sort of things.
So we're, we're in. The view of those students.
Matt: you're getting to pick the [00:16:00] best. Yeah.
Ben: so you get to spend a day with them and you cook and they'll, you know, if they're hungry, they'll come up to you and go, Hey chef, this was amazing. Can I come? And Yeah. You know, do you have any work? other times we'll get people just walk in the door and say, you know, here's my cv.
I'm, I'm after a job. I, I love this restaurant.
Matt: what I tried
Ben: share with the senior team is. If you limit the process for how someone lands in your space, you are limiting everything. it's very easy to be judgmental because judgment is part of your process, right?
Like you, you have to be able to write this, this, this year. Cool, no worries. But outside of that, when you are bringing people into the team. There's a million different factors that are going on and that day, these 10 factors might have weighed heavier than not and it might not be relevant the next week.
So it's, it's about helping them become part of the team. It's about it [00:17:00] helping them understand what our ethics are and what our values are, and what our processes are. and I, I'm so fortunate, Chen, to have such an incredible. Team that I get to work with every day.
and the senior team are such a talented bunch of people. They, they really are incredible that it's on the seniors. Not on the juniors.
Matt: No, totally. If
Ben: someone's not learning, it's on the senior.
Matt: and I think that's the same of our industry. I think so many people fail to see that, that a young kid that walks in as a day one apprenticeship, they know nothing.
Yeah. And they're not gonna know nothing. Probably to three, four years post their apprenticeship. Like that's until you really have to do something yourself when you start to learn. because at the end, end of the day, we're all from a trade background uh, whether it's a, you're a hairdresser or a carpenter a plumber or a chef, you you start from learning with your hands and you don't know what you're doing at that first point.
Ben: So we, we also do something. Connected to that, that stays true then right through where anyone that walks in the [00:18:00] door, whether you've been cooking for 15 years or for for one week, is judged with that same
Matt: Yeah. The same top. Yeah.
Ben: And the filter is in this kitchen. You currently know nothing. So the team's job is to teach you everything.
Matt: forget everything, you know, throw it out the door. We're starting again.
Park
Ben: for a minute. Yeah.
Hamish: Not forget it, but park
Ben: it
Hamish: for a minute I think. I think And go. I think that's a, that's a really great thing to say. Park it for a second because there's a lot of stuff here like you, you've got your preexisting ways of doing things.
Yes. Learn this and then bring these into the same. Yes. Because then exactly your experience then creates the experience for the next person that's coming in. Exactly. So it becomes this like melting pot of, yeah. Because you're removing that ego when someone first walks in. Yeah. So I think that's probably what you're trying to do, right?
Someone new
Ben: comes in on both sides of the coin though, right? You've got the person who's come in Yep. And they're trying to find their feet. Yep. So for them, you're going just
Matt: put [00:19:00] yourself in
Ben: blinkers off. Super curious. But also for the team that's teaching, it's like if you think that they know a hundred things, you are less likely to teach them a hundred things that they need to know.
Matt: And it would be hard as that young kid coming in because they'd be so nervous working with some of the best chefs in Melbourne. So it's also relieving the pressure off them. Like, dude, you're hit alone.
you're gonna make mistakes. It's cool.
Yeah,
just start it, start again. No pressure. We will get there.
Ben: And the seniors lose that frustration where You come in and I go, oh, Hamus here. He knows how to use Hamer. So Hamish go over and do that job there. And then I watch you do it. And I'm go, oh, that's not how I would do it. And then I get frustrated. But if I treat Hamish like day zero, I go, right, come over here.
We're gonna do this, this, and this, and this is how we do it. And then you go, okay, cool. And then I see you do it wrong. And I go, no, this way. Cool. Right? That's, that's the difference because frustration. Builds so quickly if it's unchecked
Matt: and then you've gotta check it.
At what point can that person challenge the way you do something?[00:20:00]
Ben: It's a good question. Uh, and it, it comes with, that's a really good question. It comes with time and it comes with earned respect on both sides. Yeah. people know when that's there. People know when they can say, Hey, I've been doing this, but I think
Hamish: this and and is that, in your experience, is that a quiet conversation?
Is that a, Hey, it doesn't have to be Ben. Okay. Right. But it wouldn't be in the middle of service going, you know what? This is fucking shit. We're not doing it that way. Let's do it. A hundred percent. Yes. It's a
Matt: and a place. Yeah,
Hamish: there's a time in the place
Ben: Depending on the value of the conversation.
Yeah. Okay.
Matt: Like If you're sitting and doing something together, you can just chatting away while you work. Then you can maybe have the conversation, but it's no yelling across the kitchen. Yeah. Being like, why the fuck is this being done? That's not how it, if it's
Ben: sensitive or if it's value sensitive, then you check those conversations.
Yeah. There has to be an open door policy for communication of ideas. But I
Hamish: think what you've said that, and then again this, this is, this is transferable across all industries. If you are a carpenter or listening to this [00:21:00] podcast and you want to come work for me and Matt, right?
There's certain ways that we want to do things, and I know I'm open to hearing new ways, but we've got a reasonably good formula on how we build homes now, and we've been doing it for a while and we've kind of got our processes and ways that we
Matt: there's a reason why you do it.
Hamish: Yep. And there's a reason why we do it, and I've had an experience recently around that, which don't need to talk about here, but that's my experience in doing the things that we do.
And if you are a carpenter, you might know so much, you might be a better carpenter than me, but this is what we are experts at. Now, if you've got some value to add to that. Let's have a conversation. But I think you're right. there needs to come a time, a period of time, and that time might be different from one person to the next, but there's a period of time where you have a certain amount of agency to come in and say, Hey, been thinking about this.
We do it this way. Yep. Have we thought about doing it this way? Yep. But that is not on day one.
Ben: No. [00:22:00]
Matt: No.
Ben: Because it comes down to your ability to ascertain the reasoning behind why all those things are done. Correct. Yep. Yep. Once you can understand that, build the picture in your head, you, you can then question.
Yep. But if you don't understand that you have no idea what you're questioning. Yep.
Matt: Do you have a high success rate of apprentices then continuing, continuing on to stay with you guys?
Ben: We have probably one of the highest tenure rates in the industry. Like, well, I've got chefs that have been in the kitchen for
five years, seven years, 10 years, 12 years. You know, like 18 to work three years. and they might leave our kitchen and go and work for other restaurants within our group. cause Chin Chin is one restaurant of there's now 13 in the group. Yep. Yep.
Hamish: Wow.
Ben: 14, 13.
Matt: What's your favorite other than Chin?
Chin?
Ben: currently Tombo Den. Down in Chapel Street.
Matt: honestly,
Ben: are so lucky within this group to work with an incredibly talented [00:23:00] bunch of people.
Uh, each of the venues are run by. Amazing front house and back house. The work that goes into creating the story of what the restaurant is prior to whatever opening is so in depth. The marketing team, the back house team, the office team, the creative team. we know inside out.
What something is gonna be before it opens, which allows it to become a platform for growth and success. We, we offer anyone that becomes a member of the team, a platform from which to be absolutely successful if they understand the process and the way to do things.
Hamish: I'm just, I'm thinking about this 'cause I've got experience with going to a couple of different Lucas Group restaurants In my mind, the easiest thing to do would've been to just roll out a whole bunch of Chin, chin restaurants, right? Yeah. The two that I'm thinking of. Chin. Chin and OTs. OTs. Yep. OTs up in Canberra had the Absolutely incredible, by the way, if you're in Canberra, go check it [00:24:00] out. They are wildly different, like mind blowingly different venues.
Yeah. But same company behind it. Yes. So I think there's a really great lesson there for any business owner that you can have different offerings, but the fundamentals of business remain the same.
Ben: You can build the same 24 houses any given area, right? Yep. They all look the same. There's plenty of areas around the world where that's the case.
I mean, if you go down some of the most beautiful streets in London,
Matt: Yep.
Ben: those terrace rows are
Matt: same identical, Yeah. right?
Ben: It's not a bad thing. But then. There's also an ability to have myriad styles within your portfolio and to be able to create things that are unique and specific to the person who chooses you to build for them.
Right?
Hamish: Yeah. Okay.
Ben: And so, I feel like anyone with, a beating creative heart. [00:25:00] Is driven to want to deliver on both fronts. So if you are going to multiply out the singular, you want it to be the best multiplication of that as possible. if you're not gonna integrate.
Horizontally, sorry. If you're not gonna integrate vertically Yep, yep. You're gonna integrate horizontally and that then opens the door to Creative Flourish, that you really pushes the boundaries. you know, when you're in a Lucas restaurant, the attention to detail, the way we do certain things, you go, oh yeah, this is a
Matt: And you're across the menu on
all of the restaurants, or
everyone? No,
Ben: I do. I take care of. The Chin, chin. I oversee that with the, the team of exec chefs that run those venues. Yeah. I have been involved in the opening of several other restaurants with the group over the years. I now sort of just, and, and the Chin Chin team and sort of external events and things like that.
Uh, we have a, a team responsible for new venue creation. A guy called John Can's. Sort of heads [00:26:00] that up with, that's a fun job. Oh, it's amazing. And, and intrinsically linked to your industry, um, where you get to spend time looking at plans and being on building sites and, doing those things all day every day.
Right. So they take care of that. And then new teams are brought into play with certain, a certain smattering of, Individuals that have spent time within the group will go in either in the most senior role or in senior roles to steady the ship as it, as it sets off.
Hamish: just thinking about it now and sort of piecing all these, this together, like working for the Lucas Group, there is a huge amount of opportunities for growth and progression within that group.
And you could, you know, start off in Chin, chin as a. As a lion chef, I dunno if that's even the right terminology. And then end up and work your way up to a sous chef or an exec chef over here in five or 10 years time in a new venue that's over. You know, one of our chefs
Ben: started as a kitchen hand. Yep.
Ended up as a junior soup with us and went to another one of our venues [00:27:00] and a sous chef, and he's now moved out into another, in, into other restaurants within the industry. And he's now doing his own thing. Uh, but yes, that pathway is a hundred percent capable. And we've had people that have started front house and are now in office.
We've had people start front house that now do events that have gone from front house to marketing. there is huge opportunity for growth and it's, that's
Hamish: exciting. I'm gonna ask this question. I really hope you take it where I want it to go, because obviously I know you personally and I know the thing that lights you up and it, you know, gets you outta bed every morning.
What's one of your most recent career highlights that maybe goes beyond cooking?
Ben: there's a couple. The, the, the big one is I've been given the opportunity to write several cookbooks mm-hmm. For the we've just finished our third cookbook and it came to markup last year. It's now available to, to the public through the restaurants, and a couple of select bookstores. still hungry. Yeah. Still [00:28:00] hungry. Yes. that. Is one of the highlights of my career is the opportunity to write books.
'cause I, I love the written word. I love Yep. That process,
And then early this year got invited to, uh, Bendigo Writers Festival. So
Hamish: Indigo Writers Festival.
Ben: Yep.
Matt: that's an interesting one. As
Ben: an As a, as a, as an author? As an author. Yeah. Which was, really humbling. And it's humbling 'cause the book was written for, everyone that's ever experienced a chin, chin experience, but wants to try and recreate it at home. So there's, I spent a lot of time with this book working out how my food could best be recreated at home.
Yep. And I spent most of that time cooking it at home. interesting. I moved several years ago and the new house has induction. So initially I was like, I
Matt: wait, no gas. 'cause that would be, you'd be cooking with gas in the,
Hamish: do you know what, and I do wanna, and I do wanna stay on this for a second 'cause it is relevant because obviously we're all electric, you know, advocates for electric and I know I've known you for a long time now [00:29:00] and.
Gas is a big part of your DNA when it comes to cooking. Yep. And tell me your experience of cooking on induction cook crops.
Ben: Well, when we bought the house, I said to feed, the first thing we're gonna do is pull that out and replace it with gas. Yep. And then I moved in and I started cooking. And two of the most important things, the most relevant things when it comes to cooking,
Matt: are
Ben: Heat control. Yes. And intensity. Yes.
Hamish: Okay.
Ben: Right. The control needs to be very accurate. You need to be able to go from high to low quickly, which is why gas is so amazing. Right. 'cause it goes bang, bang.
Matt: Okay. Induction
Ben: is as quick, if not quicker. The other thing with induction is, uh, I had yet to find a domestic gas. Stove top that had the heat required in the flame to cook things like pad Hai at home.
Matt: I've never
Ben: Pad Tai in any of the cookbooks because I didn't want to write a recipe for a dish that would be inferior right now to what you would getting. Now
Hamish: we can really lean into [00:30:00] any of our listeners who supply. Why induction Cooktops to sponsor the podcast.
Matt: So
Ben: that was a game
Matt: So when I,
Ben: when we moved into this house and
Matt: was forced
Ben: to start cooking on this thing, I very quickly went from, we're ripping this out next week to, oh my God, this is amazing. Check out this stir fry power setting. It's, it's like as hot as hot. And my home cooking entered a whole new realm. So it's been amazing.
So, so, so you're
Hamish: cooking it on induction at home? Yeah. is there a time in our life in an not too distant future where Lucas Group, kitchens are induction?
Ben: we've already had an induction top in the front kitchen at Chin Chin from the opening, complete induction, I don't think we're there yet.
That's not to say, the future doesn't look
Matt: like that. It's gotta be a durability theme because it's glass. And if you are moving pots and pans everywhere, like you're a high chance you're gonna shutter that glass until they can. Maybe come up with something that's more commercial. So if you throw something on
Hamish: do you, do you know what, there are inherent challenges.
I, I reckon Chris likes a challenge, so I'm hoping that Chris [00:31:00] listens to this. So, Chris, if you are listening, I bet you you can't do it.
Matt: So I, I wanted, look, we
Ben: love, we love fire, we love wood fire.
Matt: What's that restaurant in Sydney? They just cook with fire theory is like
Hamish: seeing some of the, you know, and I'm always drawn to, because I know when you're gonna go and do these things.
You've been in pmo, you go to Adelaide and all that kind of stuff, and there's always these amazing theatrical, I don't know, vibe around cooking on this big fucking metal thing and there's fire underneath it. Like, I don't think you can replace that. Like that has to, it has soul that has to stay. Yeah. But I think just generally speaking in a kitchen, like could it, could it get there?
Could it get there?
Ben: There it edges ever closer. Yeah. Every day. Great. And,
Matt: and there are valuable.
Ben: sides to both of it. Like, and for me, like wood fire with induction and. Really high quality like electric ovens that, you know, combi ovens with [00:32:00] steam, et cetera. It, it makes a huge array of food cooking styles possible, which is exciting.
Hamish: And, and I would imagine that, like if you, just circling back to the wood fire cooking for a second, there's a flavor in there you cannot recreate without having something burning.
Ben: Yes. no matter whether you're using smoked flavored oils or Yeah. Like you can do smoked salts, you can do smoked, you can cold smoke things.
But the, the actual act of cooking something over an open flame Yeah. Is irreplaceable
Hamish: Now, before we wrap up, there is also something else that I know about you. Yep. Uh, incredibly passionate person. Caring person. You know, I've experienced your love and care over the last few years of us being friends, but there's also something else that you do.
Yep.
Ben: and, and this, this one is like really. For me is mind boggling. Like it still blows my mind that it's, that it's real. Uh, 'cause 30 odd years ago when I started cooking, the notion that I would ever be, I mean even this right now, [00:33:00] right? The notion that I would ever be in a position to be sharing my knowledge and, and the things that I've learned with people was really foreign.
Like, I was like, you know, you, you, you became a chef because You are a bit of an oddity. Like you, you know, it, it, it's where the sort of,
Matt: you weren't smart enough to go to, to uni, so go to something else.
Hamish: else. Um, there, there was certainly
Ben: elements of
Matt: that, that that's what our industry
Hamish: is.
Ben: Yeah, there was certainly elements of that and I think as all the industries have evolved, that has been found to be not the case.
But I, I certainly didn't expect to be able to be in a room. Doing this or be in a room in front of 600 people auctioning myself off to raise money for charity like that. That is insane. Um, and eight years of doing that for the Starlight Foundation, uh, led to me being made an ambassador for them. That's cool.
At the end of last year. That's insane. Um,
Hamish: I remember the moment that you told all of us, and we kind of saw it coming for a while, and then [00:34:00] you're like. It's official. Yeah. And it was like, it was a really special moment because I knew how much it meant to you and you know, like it, it like you can make all the money in the world, you can be as successful as possible.
You can, you know, have your name everywhere. You can be the brand in the face of Chin Chin. But like that there surely is like, has to be one of the highlights. other than the cookbook, of course, marketing
Matt: outside of,
Hamish: Partin
Ben: outside of my family, it's up there with the greatest things I've ever done. Yeah.
It's that way because like I said, I never expected to be in that position. Yeah. I never be expected to be in a position where, where my gift and my
Matt: intrinsic
Ben: Decision, set of decision making skills led to me being able to help other people. Yeah. Attain health a better, yeah. Life, right? Yeah. So like,
Matt: there are
Ben: an incredible array of amazing charities out there.
Starlight for me is like, is a hundred percent my [00:35:00] favorite
Matt: And I think
Ben: I love most about the Starlight Foundation is that these kids are facing things way, way beyond. Their age and their ability to understand how the world works, and they face it with such braveness and such integrity and such humbleness.
Like it is, it is absolutely mind blowing when you see these kids talk about their journey. They're constantly putting other people before them. Like And, and it is so humbling to be able to be in a position to, and I've been into the hospital and visited and we, you know, I went in at Christmas time and I appeared in the, in the Royal Children's Hospital Panama with the and, and so good. like they are so wonderful.
And you come away from that going as an adult, I need to be better. Yep. I need to be less judgmental. I need to be less sensitive. I need to be more [00:36:00] driven. I need to be more focused. Because there are kids out there facing way bigger challenges than we could ever imagine. And they do it like that with their eyes closed.
It's so malleable and adaptable, aren't they? And I told you guys when it, when it happened, like it is, um, incredibly. Humbling to me to have been asked and to be afforded that opportunity. And we go out of our way every year to make sure that we can make as many kids' lives better as possible.
Matt: I can literally hear that and a passion in your voice. I've got one final question for
you.
So you said you've got a gift and people
come to you to learn. Yep.
How do you learn?
Ben: I have this set of golden values that I try and attribute my life to.
and one of them is this eternally curious piece. I like to be eternally curious. I like to be constantly looking for whatever the day might offer, and I, and believe [00:37:00] that every day has something to bring to the table, and if I go into it hungry. Uh, funnily enough, as a chef, it's a word that comes up a lot, but if I go into it hungry, I will discover things.
And so, I learn from those around me. I learn from my interaction with people. I learn from sharing. like the interesting thing about sharing right, is no understands the knowledge in their head until they share it. until shared, it's just noise a
Matt: a hundred that is honest.
Yeah. If you can't explain.
Ben: to someone else what you're doing, you don't know well enough. Yes. Yep. Right. And so in the sharing, not only do you get to reinforce what it is in there, but you also get to learn. The potential way to evolve that into something better. Yeah. And that, that has to be a driver. Like you have to be driven by this, this insatiable appetite for excellence and adventure and learning and curiosity
'cause I don't ever wanna wake up tomorrow and go, fuck, I've done it all. I've like, I've had enough. growing up [00:38:00] my dad Yeah. Was a draftsman. So on the, on the dining room table, all of my young life with these technical drawings. Yeah. Amazing. Back in, back when draftsmanship was still done by hand, pre cad. Right. So back when he sat and he drew everything up and, and so I grew up looking at technical drawings of houses and how they came together.
It, it, it became a huge part of my psyche about how my brain works. Like I love the technicality. Yep. But I also love the freedom of thought that is allowed to flow once the technicality is. Yep. Down. Right. So I like, I like structure. Yeah. But I like there to be enough space within the structure for freedom of thought to flow.
It's, it's a huge part of what created
who I am. And so those technical drawings have led me to here, to today and I would never have thought about it until sitting [00:39:00] here with two builders right now. And you talking about why the fuck have we got a chef on here? And I'm thinking. Holy shit. Like another one of my values is you find yourself where you need to be.
I'm here because dad created a love within me for, for shape and form and function and, but also curiosity and creativity. Yeah. Yeah, mate, I reckon, uh, we can thank you so much for sharing. Yeah. Honestly, I can't say anything other than that. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. Thanks for having me, man. Cheers, buddy.