Australia's most well known architect

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"The architect designed something we can't actually build." 

It wouldn’t be outlandish to believe that most builders have said this at least once, usually while staring at plans that look beautiful but ignore practical realities. We sat down with Amelia Lee from Undercover Architect to understand why architects and builders struggle to collaborate effectively, and more importantly, how to fix it.

It's All About Communication

The problem isn't that architects and builders have different goals; it's that they've been trained to think differently. Architects are detail-oriented and vision-centric, trained to think years into the future about how spaces enhance lives. Builders focus on the practical logistics of constructing those visions into reality.

Amelia, who has worked as a registered architect since 2003 across residential, commercial, and community projects, highlighted how these different perspectives should be strengths rather than obstacles. Her experience spans both sides - understanding architectural vision while recognising construction realities. The issue arises when neither side understands or respects how the other operates. A simple mindset shift, viewing differences as complementary rather than conflicting, can transform working relationships.

Identifying and Closing Industry Gaps

The building industry has significant gaps that better collaboration could address. Amelia pointed out the shortage of female professionals on-site - currently only 2-3% of tradespeople. This isn't just about equality; it's about missing perspectives that could solve complex problems more effectively.

Through Undercover Architect, Amelia has helped over 100,000 homeowners navigate their renovation and building projects since 2009. Her work emphasises educating homeowners to demand better from their builds while empowering builders to see themselves as professionals capable of excellence in their operations. When all parties understand their roles and value each other's expertise, projects run more smoothly.

The Role of Women: Unlocking Industry Potential

Amelia's perspective on women in construction comes from lived experience. As one of the few female architects working extensively in residential construction, she's witnessed firsthand how diverse perspectives improve outcomes. Data suggests that increasing female representation to just 25% could spark significant cultural changes. Women bring diverse problem-solving approaches and project management skills that reshape industry dynamics.

Interestingly, many successful building businesses are already led by women behind the scenes; managing books, streamlining operations, and maintaining company culture. These contributions often go unrecognised despite being critical to business success.

The industry's future depends on collaboration and education. Architects need to communicate their vision while welcoming practical construction input. Builders must openly share real-world challenges and constraints rather than silently struggling with impractical designs.

Amelia's Home Method and other online courses have equipped thousands of homeowners with the knowledge to facilitate better architect-builder relationships. When clients understand both perspectives, they can bridge communication gaps and keep projects on track.

When architects and builders work together harmoniously, respecting each other's expertise, the results benefit everyone - especially homeowners who deserve projects completed on time, on budget, and to quality standards.

If you’d like to submit a question for us to discuss on the podcast, reach out to us on Instagram.

LINKS:

The Undercover Architect

Connect with us on Instagram:  @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

• FULL TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Hamish: I personally feel quite honored that we have today's guest because one of the first podcasts that I went on was actually yours, Amelia. Oh really? And I was like, fuck yeah. Someone actually knows who I am and I respect this person. This is amazing. Can I just call out something that's I feel is a little bit ironic?

  [00:00:18] Hamish: You call yourself the undercover architect. I would say that you are not that undercover anymore. Like I would almost argue that you are probably one of the world Australia's most known architects, and yet you don't practice anymore. 

  [00:00:35] Matt: And Australia's biggest podcast construction, I would say probably. 

  [00:00:38] 

  [00:00:38] Amelia: until, Tim, uh, Ross and Kevin McLeod started their podcast, I was the highest Australian Design podcast.

  [00:00:44] Amelia: They've just recently picked me at the Post with that, so with their new podcast, but, uh, which is lovely 'cause it's a good podcast. Um, it's interesting. I, I've always positioned Undercover architect as being people's secret ally. Yep. Uh, and it started because I didn't want to call. I feel like, um, [00:01:00] architecture is, you know, the architecture that I kind of moved into was a very male dominated field.

  [00:01:04] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:01:05] Amelia: And very ego driven. Uh, and for me to call it Amelia Lee Architects just felt very kind of, of that ilk and not of me. So Undercover Architect was about being sort of behind the scenes. It's interesting. I feel like there's two camps in the industry. There's. Potentially what you're saying where I get a lot of gratitude from industry people about what I do.

  [00:01:25] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:01:26] Amelia: And then there's others who really don't like what I do. And at the same time, there's lots of homeowners who will not tell their team. That they're getting advice from me or that they're doing my programs because they're worried about treading on toes, looking like they're overstepping. And so that's really hard 'cause it's been like this thing of like, how am I gonna reach people if people aren't telling people that this exists?

  [00:01:45] Amelia: You know? And it's been this constant push and pull of that. So, and I, I remember very early in the piece, somebody saying to me, from a marketing point of view, you undercover architect naming your business, that might be your death nail. 

  [00:01:58] Hamish: Really? 

  [00:01:58] Hamish: Really? 

  [00:01:59] Amelia: Yeah. Because you'll be [00:02:00] everybody's biggest kept secret. 

  [00:02:01] Hamish: Yeah.

  [00:02:02] Amelia: And it's been really interesting to sort of see how it does play out differently. Maybe, maybe, 

  [00:02:06] Hamish: can I ask you a question? Have you had one of your clients go through the Home method? 

  [00:02:11] Matt: I have no idea. I think one is doing it now. Like, and I'd be okay if they didn't tell me, but I'd want them to do it. Like, I don't like if, tell me if you want to do the do it.

  [00:02:20] Matt: Like I'd be, so I'd be like, Hey, I pointed actually clients in the past to your podcast on an episode. Like you need to listen to this one. Like it's really important for what you do. But I think that like. I, I just don't understand why you, you wouldn't tell someone like, I actually can't, I really struggle to comprehend that in my brain.

  [00:02:36] Matt: Do you know I've got 

  [00:02:37] Hamish: three current clients in pre-construction that are doing your home method, and I'm a big advocate for it. Obviously, I have been for a long time, and I actually feel that the people that have done it ask the best questions Now. It's funny that they go, oh, I've got a list of questions that I want to, that I, that I want to send to you.

  [00:02:58] Hamish: And I, and I immediately go, [00:03:00] oh, are you doing Amelia's course? Are you send them over? Here's my pre-prepared answers. Yeah. Here's pre answers from this question before answers. Yeah. But I think it's great because I go through the questions and there's 20, 30 of 'em. There's a lot of 'em, and it's really in depth.

  [00:03:11] Hamish: And, um, you know, I think as a, as a reputable builder, I've got no problem answering them. But I could see how someone who. I dunno, might not buy into this would be, oh shit, hang on. Why is this client asking me? So, so 

  [00:03:24] Matt: you, this is where I wanna go. You made a comment. People don't, some people don't like what you do.

  [00:03:29] Matt: Who are those people? Because I can't understand why they wouldn't like it. 

  [00:03:32] Amelia: Um, so I've had architects tell me that I'm trying to teach homeowner how to be architects. I mean, our cold ads that we run to a cold audience, we only run to a female audience because the male comments I would get on, they were just far too much to, um, moderate.

  [00:03:47] Amelia: And the messages I would get were just, and just the trolling was just unbelievable. Both from general public and from industry. 

  [00:03:53] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:03:53] Amelia: Um, 

  [00:03:54] Matt: funnily enough, I've actually changed my marketing to only females recently, and it's, it's really interesting. Uh, it's [00:04:00] actually a very different audience. Yeah. And it's actually, I find it very hard to market to because it's just.

  [00:04:05] Matt: They, they want different things. 

  [00:04:06] Amelia: Yeah. And, and at the end of the day, it's actually women that are making 80% of the purchasing decisions. So it's smart from a business point of view for you to be Yeah. Choosing them as your audience and actually targeting them. Yeah. And 

  [00:04:16] Matt: it was, it was only recently we were looking at metrics for sponsorship for this podcast, and I had about 90% male in the last 90 days.

  [00:04:22] Matt: Like, that's too high. Yeah. Like I, I appreciate that 90% of our industry is male. 

  [00:04:26] Hamish: We, we were looking at exactly the same time because we're trying to put a perspective together and I'm just like, oh, hang on. Oh, that's high. And then I, I went and it's interesting, different. Different bits of marketing you put, we put out on social media attract a different demographic.

  [00:04:39] Hamish: So then it's just trying to figure out, well, if we want to grow our client audience, where do we need to shift, shift our demographic to, and it's interesting, the, the, the, the photos, the nicer photos had a higher, um, engagement with females, but still massively male dominated in the, in the audience. 

  [00:04:58] Matt: so like my own [00:05:00] personal social media for the last year. Like, 'cause I building my own house and I have changed my whole method of social media to attract tradies because I wanted free shit for my own house.

  [00:05:08] Matt: Totally open about that. Like I've got a lot of good free shit too. Um, uh, which I'm about to fill everyone's social media with because I've got it. Pay it out. But, um, I've, I've noticed that like, yeah. 'cause not our industry's 90% male, so it's even just on sided tools. And it makes sense if we do a video on how to install something that you're gonna have a higher proportion of males and tradies and Yeah.

  [00:05:29] Matt: But yeah, with male tradies, if you wanna go down through what they do for work, it has to be tradies. But I think we go back to, uh, yeah. The people that reach out to me most, I look back, it's female, female, female, female. And If I was gonna get someone to reach out, like when we're building our house, like I'd like Nicole, who do you like the most?

  [00:05:45] Matt: Who do you feel comfortable with? So I think, yeah, there's a, there's a method in, yeah, I don't wanna open too much of my future marketing secrets, but I'm. Targeting purely only females. 

  [00:05:54] Hamish: I want, I want to, I wanna bring it back to, to what you do Emelia. So, um, yeah, we 

  [00:05:58] Matt: go off track so quickly. [00:06:00] It's all good.

  [00:06:00] Hamish: Undercover architect. So, so under Undercover Architect has a podcast, but under Architect also has a, uh, a product that you sell online. Can you maybe tell the viewers, I mean, I think you've used this term before if you're, unless you're living under a rock. I'm sure you've heard of Amelia Lee before, but can you maybe just tell the listeners what you do?

  [00:06:21] Amelia: Uh, so I am Amelia Lee. I'm the architect behind Undercover Architect. Yeah. And we help and teach homeowners what they need to know when they're designing, building, or renovating their homes. Yep. Uh, so they can get it right simply and with confidence. So that is the, what a great opening for your podcast.

  [00:06:35] Amelia: It Steel. Um, and we do that via the website, the podcast, uh, and we have a bunch of DIY courses that are self-paced, uh, dealing with specific subject matter. Mm-hmm. And then the signature program is Home Method. 

  [00:06:47] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:06:48] Amelia: And Home Method is, uh, where I take you through step by step from start to finish, a renovation or new build project, whoever you're working with, wherever you're located, whatever your budget. I help you understand the questions to ask, the steps to [00:07:00] follow through pre-design, design, pre-build and build. And you get support inside an online Facebook community and regular Zoom q and as, uh, with me as well. 

  [00:07:07] Matt: And do you do that as a, it's like a group session. It's just not one, not one-on-one.

  [00:07:11] Amelia: No. So the um, people get incredibly personalized support. Yeah. 'cause they get all their questions answered. Uh, but it is inside a community and I think this is a really interesting thing for homeowners. What I've noticed, and I really only learned this through Undercover Architect, is a lot of homeowners feel like their home is a special little snowflake that's really geographically specific, that they need people that'll win stones throw to kind of help and give them advice.

  [00:07:32] Amelia: And it's only once they're actually inside a community like that, they realize how similar their experience is to others. We help to normalize kind of the overwhelm and concern that you can go through as a homeowner doing something as big as this, and they get to tap into that collective learning experience where others are asking questions they haven't even thought about yet 'cause they haven't got to it.

  [00:07:50] Amelia: And they can really expand what's possible in their knowledge base. Because they're part of this community that are all, you know, an undercover architect. We're not aligned through an aesthetic or [00:08:00] through a size home or through even a particular kind of project. Generally, it's people who are wanting to create a home that truly and authentically reflects them.

  [00:08:06] Amelia: Yeah. And sustainability has become a much bigger part of that over the past few years as well. There's so 

  [00:08:10] Matt: much negativity around construction at the moment. Like it's, you open any newspaper and it's like build it bankrupt or, 

  [00:08:17] Amelia: I think that's always been there though. Like I, I feel like it's accelerated obviously since COVID 

  [00:08:21] Matt: and social media too, probably.

  [00:08:22] Matt: Yeah. And social 

  [00:08:23] Amelia: media. But you know, you never had to look far to see the terrible news about the construction industry current 

  [00:08:28] Matt: affair. That's what it's butter wise. But, and there's the thing 

  [00:08:30] Amelia: I knew when I started Undercover Architect, that there were really good people in this industry, but their crap at their marketing, uh, the bad news always travels faster.

  [00:08:39] Amelia: And so I had to teach people. How to actually ask the right questions so they could sift out the people who were just telling 'em what they wanted to hear. Notice the red flags and find the good people to work with. And, and 

  [00:08:47] Matt: it, yeah, and it does. You go, yeah. And typically a tradie was probably not the most academic, so never good with the email or the paperwork, and then you, it's just, it's just a, it's another step to help educate everyone along the way to make people better.[00:09:00] 

  [00:09:00] Matt: Like it, it makes a whole project easier when the client's interacting and communicating openly with the builder or an architect or building designer, even an engineer. 

  [00:09:07] Hamish: So I've written down community here. Right. And I know from my personal experience and you know, with Matt and the, the connect, the, the community builders that I, you know, communicate with a lot.

  [00:09:20] Hamish: Like how important is that community for your homeowners, for, for them to have a successful project? 'cause I think you, you touched on before, like people were scared to be alone, right? All of a sudden they're one person amongst. 200, 300, I dunno how many people that are in that community that they feel like they've, they've found their people.

  [00:09:40] Hamish: All these people are on that same journey together. Like how important to the success of Undercover Undercover Architect do you think that community is? 

  [00:09:48] Amelia: Uh, I think it's extraordinarily important. I mean, it's why I do what I do. Yeah. So, um, and it's, and it's obviously I knew the answer by the way.

  [00:09:56] Amelia: Obviously Inside Home Method, you know, we've got this beautiful. [00:10:00] Community and, and, uh, it's not just me who says it, it's unlike any other place online when it comes to building and renovating. Um, everybody is very, um, curious about seeing what others are doing and at the same time nonjudgmental about it.

  [00:10:14] Amelia: Yeah. Which is so rare. Yeah. Because building and renovating. You know, your home is often attached to status and ambition and identity. And so it's very easy for people to cut each other down when what somebody else is doing doesn't look like what they see, you know, they want to do. So, whereas we've been able to, through my incredible team and through just what we've been able to build this beautiful kind of sharing experience.

  [00:10:34] Amelia: And then I think the undercover architect community at large is also very much of that nature as well. So just people who are really hungry for knowledge. Uh, and you know, I think we have this kind of weird connection with homes where. Oh, we've been fed reality TV for so long. We kind of feel like everybody should know how to renovate and build.

  [00:10:51] Amelia: It looks so easy when you see it on television. Are they 

  [00:10:54] Matt: waterproof on the block in three days? And Benile. And then it's all great. And, 

  [00:10:58] Amelia: and then the thing is, uh, what a [00:11:00] homeowner does is they scratch the surface and then they just start to uncover all the things that they didn't know they didn't know.

  [00:11:04] Amelia: And it just becomes this bottomless pit of trying to find out information and, and they're in the middle of it, having already invested money and time, and all of a sudden realize they don't have the knowledge that they need. And it is a really complex process. it is tailored to your own home because, but the thing for me.

  [00:11:18] Amelia: That is always the most unique part of any project is actually the client. Mm-hmm. Like I feel like homes. Get done exactly the same way. Yep. Follow the same process. That's why I have a method that teaches it. 

  [00:11:28] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:11:29] Amelia: But it's the homeowner that actually changes the way that that project goes. And so for me, when they feel like they can show up in a community, have conversations that their friends are sick of hearing, because projects take a long time.

  [00:11:39] Amelia: So, you know, we have people who've been doing their projects for four years Yeah. Inside our community 

  [00:11:43] Hamish: for four, four years. From in the idea to, to construction. Yeah. Mine's gonna be about five by the end of it. Yeah. And that's not unusual. No. That's not unusual. And 

  [00:11:50] Amelia: so, but your friends are going, why hasn't this happened already?

  [00:11:53] Amelia: 'cause I've seen. 5, 10, 12 houses get built in that time in your street, you know? Yeah. And so for them to normalize that it's [00:12:00] okay for them to take time to do this, that you might only do this once or twice in your life, that doing it intentionally is actually what's really important, and you being able to feel supported in that.

  [00:12:09] Amelia: Plus also have somebody calling you out going actually, which I mean, I do, I, I'm very, 

  [00:12:14] Hamish: I'd be very surprised if you called someone out. I'm very big on the fact 

  [00:12:19] Amelia: that. Let's just be, this is too important for me to stuff around and, and pussyfoot around it. I'm gonna tell you what you need to hear. And be really blunt with you.

  [00:12:28] Amelia: And so yeah, you're not there to see 

  [00:12:29] Matt: Kumbaya and hold their hands the whole time. 

  [00:12:31] Amelia: Well, I think it's this thing of like, they, they invest particularly in Home Method because they're wanting to achieve an outcome. Yeah. I'm, I'm not their parent. So how they, the timeline that they choose is their timeline.

  [00:12:41] Amelia: But you know, we've had experiences inside the community where homeowners have been really like tying themselves over in knots about something. Or they'll forget that they had a conversation a month ago about something. Uh, and because me and my team track it all, we can go hang on. Don't you remember?

  [00:12:53] Amelia: This is where you were. Let's actually get you back on track. Yeah. And it's a long process, and that can be incredibly important for people to be able to corral them in. Yeah. It's a 

  [00:12:59] Matt: [00:13:00] draining process. Like I can talk openly about mine that we, it was three years getting to VCAT and then. Going to that process, like 40 grand in cost.

  [00:13:09] Matt: Yeah. And, 

  [00:13:09] Hamish: and you are a builder 

  [00:13:10] Matt: and I know And you're a builder. Yeah. And I knew exactly what I was ing for. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, pity the council suck. Once I finish I'll be very open my mouth. Stay tuned for that podcast. Uh, but, but then even building like, it's like it's 18 months on site. Like if I could go faster, I would, because I'd be in my house.

  [00:13:27] Matt: Like the reality is it takes time and we can't click our fingers and magically, oh, it's all done. Like good things come to those who wait. Um, 

  [00:13:35] Hamish: at what point? Did you decide to fix the builders as well, Amelia? 

  [00:13:39] Amelia: Uh, so And why? And, and, and, and fix the builders. We all, 

  [00:13:45] Hamish: we all know where this is going, right? So, because obviously you undercover architect has been going for a long time, and then at some point along your journey you go, hang on a minute, the builders actually need some help here.

  [00:13:56] Amelia: Yeah. And 

  [00:13:57] Hamish: so. Uh, 

  [00:13:58] Amelia: so officially Live Life build [00:14:00] started in, uh, uh, 2019. Yep. So it's been six years now. Good timing. Um, great timing. We literally started our first program as COVID hit. Yep. So it, there, it was amazing to have to. Uh, to like, to, yeah, to start a business at that time in an industry that was so severely impacted.

  [00:14:16] Amelia: And then for us to pivot and be able to support builders, not only to survive through that time, but actually thrive. So that was a really extraordinary kind of baptism by fire for that business. Um, I think that for me. Look, I've had a very long career. I've been in the industry for over 30 years. I've, um, had builders sitting across the table from me saying, the homeowner doesn't want it.

  [00:14:35] Amelia: They're not gonna ask for it, so why would I bother doing it? Uh, undercover Architect was really about, I've gotta teach homeowners to demand better. Um, you know, architects are only serving three to 5% of the population mm-hmm. Of houses, you know, we really need to lift the rest. And I'll do that by actually educating homeowners to improve the industry from by what they're.

  [00:14:53] Amelia: Buying. And then for me, it was like I just saw, I mean, an undercover architect exposed me to a [00:15:00] part of the industry that I'd never seen as an architect working one-to-one with clients. 

  [00:15:03] Hamish: Which part? 

  [00:15:04] Amelia: Well, in terms of just how the average homeowner actually goes through it, because. I was only meeting people who had decided they wanted to work with an architect.

  [00:15:11] Amelia: Ah, 

  [00:15:11] Hamish: yep. 

  [00:15:12] Amelia: And were coming to me and finding me. 

  [00:15:13] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:15:14] Amelia: there's a ra. I mean, if they're only doing three to 5% of houses, there's a raft of people who never even consider reaching out to an architect. Because I would idea, I was all of a sudden meeting through undercover 

  [00:15:21] Hamish: architect, you, your undercover architect communities, probably agnostic to the.

  [00:15:26] Hamish: What level of design? It could be drafts person, it could be, it could be building design. It could be acting. It's what you have for it. Well, it, it, 

  [00:15:32] Amelia: well, for me, and I mean this is probably one of the reasons why some people in the industry don't like me is because I'm very big on the fact that, and I mean, I've had, I've had.

  [00:15:40] Amelia: Contention from the Institute of Architects about the fact that I, I don't insist that you use an architect. 

  [00:15:46] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:15:47] Amelia: I believe that you need to find the best designer for you because as with any industry, there are those that are great at what they do and those that are not great at what they do, and they still get to hang a shingle and charge people for their work.

  [00:15:56] Amelia: Yeah. 

  [00:15:56] Matt: Well, maybe that's their fault for not having a clear message that architects can be affordable for. [00:16:00] Like rather blame you for it. Maybe they can look at it in inside and go, well, how can we actually promote this? Oh, I think 

  [00:16:04] Amelia: there's a lot of layers and we'll have a very long podcast if we get into the layers of challenges like that.

  [00:16:09] Amelia: But I think, I think for me, um, I just started to realize as I dipped in my toe into the world of homeowners, beyond what my client work was, very pe few people actually knew what an architect did, how much of a problem solver they could be on a project, how much they could nurse and support you through.

  [00:16:26] Amelia: So many things beyond the actual sitting down at a drawing board and drawing out the house design. And so for me, what I found is that I just chose instead to start teaching what I knew about the projects and about the process so that I could help a homeowner navigate it more clearly. And through that, homeowners have gone, actually, I had no idea.

  [00:16:44] Amelia: This is what an architect does. And a lot of them have then have turned around and said, well, of course I would use an architect. Yeah. For me, I don't think it's about, uh, I mean. There's, there is a perception out there that architects are more expensive than any other designer. I don't believe drafts people design, so that's a whole nother [00:17:00] topic.

  [00:17:01] Amelia: I agree. Building designers, I think I've worked with some really great building designers, some of whom have been far better than some of the worst architects I've worked with. And, and they've also been more expensive than architects as well. Mm-hmm. All 

  [00:17:12] Hamish: the same, all the same price. Yes. And so for me, 

  [00:17:14] Amelia: it's all about you knowing the difference.

  [00:17:16] Amelia: Yeah. Knowing what you need from the process. Mm-hmm. Which means that you have to actually understand the process. Yeah. And then you being able to ask the right questions so that you can see whoever you are talk, talking to, are they gonna deliver the service that you're actually expecting? It's also who you 

  [00:17:29] Matt: click with.

  [00:17:30] Matt: It's also who you actually just feel most comfortable opening up to. Yes. Like if you go an architect or building designer and you, you like the building designer as a person more, pick them. If you feel the process gonna be easier from a mental health point of view. 'cause it is stressful. Pick the person you just click with 

  [00:17:43] Hamish: or, or, or a, a building designer is gonna offer more to what's in line with what your outcomes for the project are.

  [00:17:49] Hamish: And an architect might not, you know, they might prioritize different things and that's okay. But I think it what you, you are doing the amazing stuff that you are. Is just educating the client, as you said, with asking the right [00:18:00] question you want, well, for 

  [00:18:00] Amelia: me it's about, this is what good design looks like.

  [00:18:02] Amelia: This is what a good project looks like. This is what a good project process looks like. So realize that, and then look for that, whoever you're talking with. And then yes, look for alignment. Yeah, and the ability to communicate openly with whoever the consultants are that you're working with. And it's just as much the builder, the engineer, the certifier, the Indonesia efficiency assessor, because all of those people are gonna be in your life for a very long time.

  [00:18:23] Amelia: You're gonna get to know them really intimately. I joke often that some of the conversations I would, I mean, I knew about my clients' money situation where they wanted to keep their underwear, which side of the bed they slept on, you know, all of these kinds of things. That's a really personal relationship.

  [00:18:35] Amelia: You wanna have that with somebody that you see eye to eye with. 

  [00:18:37] Matt: Yeah. 

  [00:18:38] Hamish: And And ask those 

  [00:18:39] Matt: questions. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like one of the first things I say to when I meet a client is like. I, as much as you pick me, I pick you and I'm the extra child in your relationship. In 10 years I sign off on this, this building, and I have a 10 year guarantee.

  [00:18:53] Matt: I'm part of your family. Yeah. So we need to get along. Yeah. Because if I can't come over and just sit and have a chat and have some hard conversations, but laugh and [00:19:00] cry, I'm not for you. 

  [00:19:00] Amelia: And that's the thing you do need as a professional, and I think a lot of professionals really struggle with this, is you do need to be able to have hard conversations.

  [00:19:07] Amelia: And so there has to be that. Understanding and trust and mutual respect for them to be able to receive that challenging news and those, those confrontational kind of conversations sometimes. And equally for them to be able to give that back to you. 

  [00:19:18] Matt: Yeah. ' cause I find this like weird, like I've said that like, like both Hamish and I have people come to us 'cause we just build correctly in a sense.

  [00:19:25] Matt: Like it's, it's weird that we have a market to do our job right. I find it's probably similar 'cause the process is quite simple. People overcomplicate it that you have a whole program and a whole course that teaches people to do things. The right way, which is, if you break it down, it's, it's simple.

  [00:19:40] Matt: People just overcomplicate it. 

  [00:19:41] Amelia: Uh, I, yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you there because I think that the thing is that homeowners don't even know, need, know what right. Looks like, 

  [00:19:49] Matt: but they're not meant to. This is the thing I would say. 'cause like if you go into, if I get an accountant, I'm not meant to know how to do their job.

  [00:19:55] Amelia: Yeah. But if you were about to invest 600, $700,000 with a financial planner, how much [00:20:00] research would you do into that? Into the process of what was being invested. Yeah. Checkmate. Yeah. And financial planner at all. Like this is, I mean, I think this is the challenge with building and renovating. Often people who are funding this through a mortgage, it's just zeros on a piece of paper and there's a very distant attachment to that number 

  [00:20:16] Matt: and I'm in a bubble again.

  [00:20:17] Matt: Yeah. And 

  [00:20:18] Amelia: so I think, you know, the, and this is also what I've noticed, is that the money that comes out of their pocket for professional fees is actually often their own money that they're funding personally. But the money that comes to fund the project comes from the bank. Most of the time. And so the whole money relationship is entirely different.

  [00:20:33] Amelia: So the, the cost of those professional fees always feel so much more significant than the 6, 7, 8, 900 that they're gonna be paying off for the next 30 years in Melbourne. It's obviously sometimes gonna be, do you know how many 

  [00:20:43] Matt: people don't go to site as well, which is, I would say more than 50% of projects don't even see sign and how much wasted money.

  [00:20:48] Amelia: Yeah. Yeah. So I tell people, you've got a picture this like a suitcase of money that you are handing over. Yeah. Because maybe then you'll care more, you know? 

  [00:20:55] Hamish: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. I loved you shutting that down before that just [00:21:00] made me so happy. Great. Um, so I'm not usually wrong. Not usually. I, I wanna, sorry.

  [00:21:08] Hamish: I wanna, I, I, I want to, I wanna get back to live life build thing, right? Because I was in Live Life Hill for a couple years, years couple, we, sorry, we went on a tangent. Yeah. Total. Because, because I mean, I've, I've been on the right side of, you know, experiencing what that community's about. And like, I kind of keep coming back to this community thing.

  [00:21:23] Hamish: 'cause like that for me is probably one of the. Biggest things, particularly in that time 2019, 20 21, 22, 23, like when there was so much uncertainty, you know, like you've literally gone 2019, the worst bush fires at the southeast coast have seen for however long bang straight into COVID. Yep. Um, and then you've launched another business.

  [00:21:45] Hamish: Yeah. Um, how did that go for you? Do you regret it? 

  [00:21:51] Amelia: Oh gosh, no. Oh gosh, no. Um, so to give a bit of background, so obviously have lived life build with Dwayne Pierce, who is a Queensland based, um, builder, [00:22:00] Brisbane based. 

  [00:22:00] Hamish: And if you, if you dunno who Dwayne is, you again, you're under a rock somewhere. And so he's got 

  [00:22:04] Amelia: his own podcast level up.

  [00:22:05] Amelia: And so we, um, had been seeing each other on social media, both seeking to educate homeowners, had kind of like commented on each other's stuff. I then interviewed him for my podcast. He was the builder in season four, back in like 2017. And then he and I, uh, I got, I trapped him in podcast studio for two days to do a whole season on manage, on how to manage your build and understanding the stages of construction.

  [00:22:26] Amelia: So season seven of the podcast, we did that and we created a mini course, um, which is now, uh, inside Home Method. And we kept saying, oh, look, gotta do something, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it kept kind of rolling forward. I then was a guest speaker at a, at an event that he held for builders. Um, and then finally, um, we were approached by James Hardy and Brett's Hardware, um, up in Brisbane and, uh, put on this seminar and before it kind of decided that we would actually set up this business, it all happened very kind of organically and quickly, and then from, saw the reaction in the room and then from then sort of went, took it online.

  [00:22:58] Amelia: For me, [00:23:00] uh, back to what I was experiencing with homeowners, most homeowners I found if they hadn't decided, okay, I wanna use an architect, they were getting a builder over first. 

  [00:23:07] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:23:08] Amelia: And builders were then guiding how the project would go. And a lot of builders don't like working with architects because they feel that architects complicate the process.

  [00:23:15] Amelia: They create too many drawings. They make it more expensive than it needs to be. They make it harder than it needs to be built. They control what they're doing on site too much. They make them work to a contract they don't want, you know, this was kind of the story That was a lot of the stuff of what was coming through.

  [00:23:28] Amelia: And so I, and like I said, I'd sat across the table from enough builders saying, client doesn't ask for any better. I don't need to do it for me. Undercover architect and my work generally has always been about changing the way we design, build, and renovate. It impacts all of us how somebody chooses to build their home.

  [00:23:43] Amelia: And I felt that if I could support builders to know how to work with clients better, to run their businesses better, to be able to build better homes, that it would just help deliver on that overall mission. Yeah. And for me, helping builders understand what architects actually do, how clients need help [00:24:00] and support, how we can all collaborate together.

  [00:24:02] Amelia: It's fascinating. You know, clients are one dynamic. Architects, uh, I'm going to again generalize, you know, uni, really high level of university education. Yep. Have to perform very well at school in order to get in. Very, um, scholastic in their kind of way of working and also have a very rigorous CPD program.

  [00:24:20] Amelia: Yep. So we are constantly kind of having to study and learn, and you're generally sitting in an office a lot of the time, you know, that kind of stuff. Then you've got a builder who oftentimes hasn't enjoyed school very much oftentimes, uh, may have dropped out in year 10, uh, may, uh, has gone and done a, a trade perhaps has a family full of, I, I'm shocked the, what I've learned about builders and how many builders have.

  [00:24:42] Amelia: Extended families just full of tradies and builders where architects, that's not their experience generally. And that, um, and yet you're expecting these ent entire, you know, these careers that attract very, very differently operating people to have to collaborate incredibly intimately, client, architect, and builder [00:25:00] in order to make a project work.

  [00:25:01] Amelia: And so it's been fascinating kind of learning this whole experience of how do I help? Builders be better. Uh, and how do we help then the collaboration work more effectively? 

  [00:25:12] Hamish: Yep. I don't think anyone's ever really kind of put that into a, like a perfect reel. A perfect reel like that. Um, like and, and just to show how probably far apart their journeys are.

  [00:25:27] Amelia: Oh, and do you know, it's even like down the nuances of communication. Because architects, we are taught, like it is wrapped over our knuckles as part of our registration process. Everything has to be in writing. Yeah. This is how you have to do it. You've always gotta cover your butt, make sure you've got a paper Trail.

  [00:25:39] Amelia: Builders hate writing. Don't like sitting in front of, and again, I'm generalizing, some of 

  [00:25:43] Matt: them can't. 

  [00:25:44] Amelia: Yeah. And, and, and are not lit. And so. Like we joke, like Dwayne would always prefer to get on the phone and have a conversation. It would be far faster for me just to send a Slack or an email. And it's this really, and I was chatting with Sarah Levner from career Architecture about this, and she was like, oh my [00:26:00] gosh, I'd never noticed that.

  [00:26:00] Amelia: My builder always wants to get on the phone. And I mean, particularly when you're a mom as well and she's got little kids, and I've had this experience. I was doing a lot of private work when I had little kids and then, you know, DCH studio, the architectural practice that I co-owned. And so I always had babies around and so answering the phone was just impossible.

  [00:26:14] Amelia: But builders always wanted to speak on the phone. We're in the 

  [00:26:16] Matt: car, like we can't. Yeah, like you're in the car, you're moving around you, you've got, it's to discuss. A problem is we can talk about in 30 seconds and email back. Email back. That's where I use Loom now a lot. 'cause you can just send a video. I mark up the plan and talk through it.

  [00:26:29] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. There's, 

  [00:26:29] Hamish: there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of tools that are available now that kind of cross over both kind of, um. Um, architect or designer and builder. Yeah. But also timing. But you're asking 

  [00:26:39] Amelia: these very different people to like kind of actually a, communicate really effectively with each other and b, mutually respect each other to then be able to work really well with a client and support a client where the client's actually driving the vision and the goals of what the project needs to be.

  [00:26:55] Amelia: And the builder and the architect are trying to collaborate to realize that for them, plus guide them along the way. I reckon 

  [00:26:59] Matt: the [00:27:00] mutual respects only come in the last few years and it's probably programs like yours that have. Bridge that gap. I don't think it's been something that's been happening for long.

  [00:27:07] Hamish: I agree. Because I, and I, and I was gonna bring up the PAC process because, you know, um, we've all heard of the PAC process, what, what, how, whatever you want to call it, right? But I think that that's probably been the biggest shift in the industry, um, with how projects can actually get to site successfully.

  [00:27:27] Hamish: Because that whole kind of, um, get a set of drawings, tender it go to site. In a very short period of time, like is just fraught with danger in my opinion. And I think the fact that so many people on social media now are talking about the PAC process, they're talking about their A CI or talking about their pre-construction.

  [00:27:44] Hamish: I didn't hear that in 2018. I'm hearing that in 2025. That is just normal. I think in my opinion, that's probably been one of the bus biggest success stories out of live life build. But it just simply 

  [00:27:56] Matt: sameish. But it simply just even take away the financial [00:28:00] side. It actually just. Forces, tradespeople and builders to be like a professional.

  [00:28:05] Matt: Yeah. But just the mindset of like, they charge. Okay. They must be professional. 

  [00:28:08] Amelia: Well, I think this is the thing, and this is the thing, uh, this is definitely the thing that we've, we talk about in live life build and that we've seen in live life build is builders often think of themselves as tradies.

  [00:28:17] Amelia: Whereas if you're a builder running a business owner, you are a professional. Yeah. And you can't expect people to treat you like a professional if you don't behave like a professional. 

  [00:28:23] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:28:24] Amelia: Uh, and being a professional means that you can actually have the authority and the expertise that you need in that relationship when you're working.

  [00:28:30] Amelia: Effectively with a team. At the same time, you need to also live up to the standards of professionalism. 

  [00:28:35] Hamish: Yes, yes. 

  [00:28:36] Amelia: And for me, I mean EL like Elevate and live life build, were always about elevating the professionalism of the residential construction industry. Because to me, that was the great big gap that people were dealing with.

  [00:28:46] Amelia: Professional engineers, professional architects, you know, other consultants, and then they'd step into this trade-based world. That wasn't kind of delivering to the same standard. Everything was being handed much more informally. Uh, and, and yet they were the ones that were standing between [00:29:00] them and all the money they were handing out and their finished home.

  [00:29:02] Amelia: And so I think trying to really get these parts of the industry to meet with each other more effectively. And I, I dispute the, the mutual respect. One of the reasons that I have such, I've had the career that I have. And I also, I think I get to do the work that I do now is because I had so many builders that I worked with at mvac and at Tonka Laika when I was there back in Sydney, who respected me as a, as a graduate architect.

  [00:29:27] Amelia: As a newly registered architect. 

  [00:29:29] Matt: But they were professional 'cause they most likely went through and took me under 

  [00:29:31] Amelia: their wing. 

  [00:29:31] Matt: But they were at mvac you would've gone through a construction New Year degree, so you kind of, that would've felt Not 

  [00:29:35] Amelia: always, no. Okay. No. So, I mean, I worked in the residential, um, we were building single residential homes.

  [00:29:40] Amelia: Um, but I mean, it was fascinating for me because I worked at Mvac for seven years and I had, uh, I only left there when I had my second baby, and then we started DCH studio. So I went back after my maternity leave with my first son. At the same time, my husband and I, we renovated three houses whilst our kids were little.

  [00:29:57] Amelia: So, yeah. 

  [00:29:57] Hamish: Okay. 

  [00:29:57] Amelia: But I think that it's, um, [00:30:00] I think that what was interesting for me was there was one builder in particular, a guy named Pete Moland, who used to just be quite, he was very hard. On the architectural staff, and I didn't know at the time at mvac, but there was a code for architectural errors.

  [00:30:15] Amelia: Any costs that went against architectural errors had a line item in the construction cost reporting. 

  [00:30:20] Hamish: I'd love to do that so that 

  [00:30:21] Amelia: Mirvac could see on a grand scale what the cost errors were. So that the construction arm didn't have to take responsibility if it was an architectural error. Oh, so if something happened, yeah, imagine that didn't add be contract if the architect had made an error.

  [00:30:34] Amelia: Yeah, and I mean the thing is it's all coming from the same bucket of money 'cause it's all the same company, but at least it got reported that way. Anyway. I love that. Yeah, it was really, it was quite interesting to sort of see, but it's tr you can't really do it when you are in different businesses because you're then kind of blaming each other, whereas that it was just actually about transparency and how do we improve the process from the start.

  [00:30:52] Amelia: Yeah. Yeah. S Murk was already always really big on, but he would be so amazing. I would watch how differently, because I showed. [00:31:00] I've always taken the approach that, um, I've generally, particularly early in my career, I'd be the only woman in the room. Uh, I would not understand all the conversations that were going on.

  [00:31:10] Amelia: And very quickly I realized I was much better served by going, Hey, can you just take the time to explain that to me? 'cause I don't know what you're talking about, rather than what I watched other young male graduates do, which was trying to pretend that they knew what was going on and he really respected that I wanted to learn.

  [00:31:24] Amelia: And so it's a whole vulnerability thing, what you saying. And so he just took me and so. We would have this, you know, amazing experience and to the point where I remember there was an experience a few years ago, an undercover architect. Um, so him and Rick Roundtree, who was his offsider for Waterline, which was a big project in Brisbane that I was project architect on at Mirvac. Uh, this builder, um, started criticizing me on social media, then started DMing me and inviting me to his site so he could tell me what he needed, what I needed to know. And it got really, really insidious really, really quickly to the point where I just started blocking him and all of this kind of stuff.

  [00:31:57] Amelia: But Rick Roundtree jumped on social media and just [00:32:00] was like. I've never met an architect who knows more about what's going on on site. You know, like, and it was just, and to me, this is the thing. We, we forget that the people that are in this industry that we make connections with, they we're in these industries for long times.

  [00:32:12] Amelia: Yeah. And these networks are really important. And the networks, you know, you might do one house for one client at a time, uh, and then that client never works with you ever again. But the relationships that you build through mutual respect and care and regard and curiosity for what each other do. Is actually the thing that feeds your career long term.

  [00:32:32] Amelia: The fact that I have relationships with builders now, even though I'm not traditionally practicing architecture, but I can call you and go, Hey, I've had this question, like, what's going on in your projects at the moment? Yeah. And it's not strange for us to do that. 

  [00:32:43] Hamish: No. 

  [00:32:44] Amelia: There's no weirdness that I haven't actually done a project with you.

  [00:32:46] Amelia: I can, you know, to me that's what actually helps me be a better architect. Yeah. And I don't understand why people in the industry aren't collaborating and, and working more collegiately in that way. 

  [00:32:55] Hamish: how can we. Bring architects and [00:33:00] builders together more like I, because I remove abi contracts, I don't wanna go down that path 'cause I, yeah, I don't wanna go down that path.

  [00:33:08] Hamish: Like is I think some of the, 'cause we're all proud people, right? Like I'm proud. Um, you are proud. You are proud. I know a lot of the designers and architects who work with the super proud people. No one likes to be called out and told that they're doing something wrong or that there's a mistake. How can we foster an environment where.

  [00:33:24] Hamish: It's okay that something's wrong, and then we work together to fix it. Because in my experience, there's something wrong on the plans. Like my team's default is, plans are fucked. Uh, it's, and I'm like, okay, well, and even we do that 

  [00:33:36] Matt: at times, probably ourselves. It's 

  [00:33:37] Hamish: true. But how do we then foster an environment where we pick something up on plans and then feed it back, um, to the design team in a.

  [00:33:45] Hamish: A productive manner. 

  [00:33:47] Amelia: Can I, can I tell you a story? Because there absolutely was this really interesting experience recently. So had a builder who said, this architect can't seem to design the roof the way that I need it. it's not gonna work for the water. And I keep telling them that it's not right.[00:34:00] 

  [00:34:00] Amelia: And um, and I've even done a drawing over the top of their drawing and I've given it back to them. Um, and they're still not updating their drawings with what I want them to do. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not the architect. Whoa, whoa. Okay. You for starters, have you been doing the pack process?

  [00:34:15] Amelia: Have you been sitting at the design table and understanding what is driving that roof design? Because the client may be the one insisting on it. Yeah. The architects told them that it's gonna be problematic, but the architect, that client is saying that's what they want second. Don't ever, and I don't often swear on podcasts 'cause I don't swear on my own.

  [00:34:30] Amelia: Swear you, or you can 

  [00:34:30] Matt: say it, do 

  [00:34:31] Amelia: not fucking draw over an architect's drawing. If you heard it here first, everyone, 

  [00:34:35] Matt: Elia swears. But you but this, this, this kind of goes where I was gonna go for a second because like. We talk about mutual respect. I think it's sort of knowing your place. I know building, I can't expect the architects to know how to build everything.

  [00:34:46] Matt: No, I, I can't understand. They can't expect me to know all their res codes. Like it's, we, we trust. It's gotta be a trust that you, I know what you are doing and you know what I'm doing. 

  [00:34:54] Amelia: There's really clear roles. Yeah. And it's about respecting those roles. Now, I know [00:35:00] that at the same time, there will always be nuances where the builder actually does have a better idea.

  [00:35:04] Amelia: Mm-hmm. And the architect is being belligerent or stubborn, or can't actually, I mean, this was a hip and gable roof and I, I often joke with the undercover architect community that a lot of architects don't know how to design hip and gable roofs because the geometry of them is challenging to do by hand.

  [00:35:18] Amelia: Uh, if you haven't designed the floor plan with a hip and gable roof in mind, you will be really, really stuffed to try and then add a hip and gable roof. Yep. 

  [00:35:24] Hamish: CAD 

  [00:35:25] Amelia: tools enable you to literally draw an outline and space bar click to then dump a computer drawn hip and gable roof. It's, and it looks like a McMansion.

  [00:35:33] Amelia: So this is the thing, if you want a clean, clear hip and gable roof, it has to be designed from the floor plan up. 

  [00:35:38] Hamish: Is this why we see so many flat roof from architects? 

  [00:35:40] Amelia: Oh, I don't know about that. I think that, think that that's a height thing. Sure. Flat roof is seen as contemporary. Yeah. And homeowners asking for contemporary projects.

  [00:35:48] Amelia: I, but also building to a boundary, but also that, but that 

  [00:35:51] Matt: comes back to them wanting to build to a boundary so they can only go a certain height. And if they start having a hip in Gable and I Yeah. There others, well, there's 

  [00:35:57] Amelia: a, there's, I think, I think that, um, I mean we've obviously [00:36:00] seen the traditional house kind of outline as the very kind of contemporary form a lot lately.

  [00:36:04] Amelia: So, uh, there is a gable roof design that is a lot of people are choosing as a contemporary. Anyway, this builder obviously had decided, and, and you know. Was well within his rights to be concerned about the longevity and performance of the roof. 'cause he's the one that's gotta warrant it and he's the one that's gonna be called if it's leaking and all of those kinds of things.

  [00:36:22] Amelia: But it's about choosing a better process. So. For me, it's always about then the builder actually being able to sit down with the architect and say, look, hey, do you understand that this is what is gonna happen? And I always just encourage people, there's a fine line between asking questions that sound like judgments versus asking questions that sound like curiosity.

  [00:36:43] Hamish: Yep. 

  [00:36:44] Amelia: And so this thing of just saying, look, I'm really, and the best way to actually say is to begin the sentence with, Hey, I'm really curious. Is there a reason why you have designed the roof this way? Because what I'm concerned about is X, Y, and [00:37:00] Z. Yeah. Do we have an opportunity to perhaps reconfigure it?

  [00:37:04] Amelia: Can I kind of suggest to you what I think might work and you know, can you tell me why, uh, perhaps you've been told by the client or you've got design ideas that are different to what. I think might practically work, and it's about the generosity of that opportunity to work together. Because as a builder, I know that you will have specific goals and you will have a lot of responsibility, and you've often got your own house on the line for your building business.

  [00:37:32] Amelia: So you are well within your rights to be concerned. But the architect, you don't know what they're like. Nobody knows what anybody else is actually going through or doing or being told or how they're working. And you've got that beautiful opportunity to actually come together and be more collaborative.

  [00:37:44] Amelia: Only there 

  [00:37:45] Hamish: was a process out there that could solve that problem. 

  [00:37:47] Matt: How Good's, the question why though? It, it can expose everything. Why? So it's, 

  [00:37:52] Hamish: and it's interesting, like that same question that I, I'm just gonna guess is probably quite far down the line in terms of like this [00:38:00] specific question about the roof was probably.

  [00:38:01] Amelia: Oh, they were doing, I think they were doing a kind of, this is the thing, the pack process comes in so many different forms, and I have a particular opinion about how I feel it needs to happen. Whereas, you know, it doesn't always happen that way. I think that that, uh, that they weren't that far down the process, but this, uh, that this builder kept seeing this roof design come through, even though they'd sort of expressed their express.

  [00:38:22] Amelia: Okay. Was this one of their 

  [00:38:22] Matt: first, one of their first. Shots at the pack process too. I 

  [00:38:26] Amelia: can't recall. I think it might be of it been earlier in their's. Experience. Pay. Experience. Experience. And the thing is too, as well, lots of architects aren't used to working with the pack process. Lots of architects see the pack process as just having another client in the builder, which is what a lot of resistance is for architects and building designers with the pack process.

  [00:38:40] Amelia: They're like, I don't wanna have to answer to another person, the client's enough. And so they don't see the opportunity. I, as a contrast, I've always had builders at the end of the phone or across the desk, you know, in. And so I think it's that thing of. Uh, the architect also embracing that you've got this incredible asset of this person who, and who is actually gonna [00:39:00] be the one that has to physically build it to say, look, okay, what's gonna work?

  [00:39:03] Amelia: What's gonna be cheaper? What's gonna be more efficient? And the builder has to respect that they sometimes might get pushed to do things they haven't done before. Mm-hmm. And that doesn't make it wrong. And that's okay. 

  [00:39:12] Matt: Yeah. Isn't that the beauty of architecture? To like, push our boundaries and see what we can do?

  [00:39:16] Matt: Like, doesn't every builder compliant, oh, I've built this before on board yet when they get something challenging. They almost then don't wanna do it. 

  [00:39:22] Amelia: Do you know what's really interesting? I went to the architectural conference, uh, there's an annual architectural conference. We sit in those conferences as architects, and we are talking about visions that are 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 years in the future. architects are standing on stage talking to architects in the audience about what are we shaping in the built environments globally and how is that going to help and support and impact the way that people behave and the way that they live and the choices that they make about their life and the world that we, as we see it like that is the kind of thinking that you are raised in as an architect.

  [00:39:52] Amelia: Yeah. And you are constantly then. Kind of, uh, faced with every time you're doing further learning and that kind of stuff, then you sit down at the table and you draw a house with [00:40:00] somebody that they, they're thinking only five or 10 years in the future. Yeah. And the builder is thinking seven years in the future because of their warranty insurance should be 10 bills, should be 10.

  [00:40:07] Amelia: 10 actually 10 years. And so, and so there's this really weird kind of crux of like, an architect is going, but I wanna change the way that we live. I want to, I wanna really shape and challenge 

  [00:40:20] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:40:21] Amelia: This kinda status quo of housing. And the builder is going, but I have to figure out that I'm not gonna get called back to this 12 times over and it's gonna cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars after.

  [00:40:29] Amelia: It's a selfish 

  [00:40:29] Matt: industry at times. Like everyone's 

  [00:40:31] Amelia: and the homeowner's going, I've gotta know, I've gotta sell this for more than what I paid for it. 

  [00:40:34] Matt: Ah, don't stop me on that 

  [00:40:35] Amelia: question. So, yeah. Um. 

  [00:40:38] Hamish: I wanna ask one more question. Okay. 

  [00:40:40] Amelia: I've 

  [00:40:40] Matt: got, I've I've got three. I have three. Okay. You go and then I'm gonna go.

  [00:40:44] Matt: Alright. You actually said that you designed your own house early on. Do you still live in that house? 

  [00:40:48] Amelia: No. No. So I've done three, my husband and I did three renovations. Yeah. Uh, we did a, had a baby per renovation. Uh, all kids learned to climb ladders before they walked, so, um, we did that over 12 and a half years living in Brisbane.

  [00:40:59] Amelia: [00:41:00] And um, yeah, we now live in the Byron Hinterland. So, 

  [00:41:02] Matt: did you follow your own advice when you designed your most recent. House. 

  [00:41:07] Amelia: Um, so what do you mean by follow, by advice, by, like, you, 

  [00:41:10] Matt: like, get the builder in and sort of follow the same exact same process, how you would tell a client through your, your home method and the pack process.

  [00:41:16] Matt: Did you kind of follow it to the t Were you like, this was all, I know this, I know that I'm gonna skip ahead. No, 

  [00:41:21] Amelia: no. Um, so, uh, these houses were all pre undercover architect. 

  [00:41:23] Matt: Okay. Um, 

  [00:41:24] Amelia: but I always had builders that I spoke to. Okay. And my, my husband actually did the bulk of the building. So because I just 

  [00:41:30] Matt: building mine in the early stages, I kind of.

  [00:41:32] Matt: Didn't listen to my advice a little bit. Oh, right. And you kind of like, I know that, and you're like, damn. Like I didn't. Take I took for granted. Granted I thought my house like, oh, this is super easy construction. And then I get on site, I'm like, I'm building on three boundaries and this is fucked. 

  [00:41:45] Amelia: Oh, that's so easy to do.

  [00:41:46] Amelia: And I mean, I know that like we've done stuff at home at our place. I've also done some side stuff with Dwayne and yeah, it is tricky to kind of follow everything to the letter. Yeah. And follow your own advice. And it always bites you in the bar when you don't [00:42:00] tell my, I tell my clients to do this. I didn't even do 

  [00:42:01] Matt: it myself.

  [00:42:02] Matt: And I, there's a reason why I told ' em to do 

  [00:42:04] Hamish: it. Like, so we have a pretty robust pre-construction process and um, we are about to build a big barn at our place. And up until this point I was kind of just loosely managing it. And we got to the point the other day where I turned around to Lucy and I said. I need to stop doing what I'm doing right now because I am the worst person to be doing this.

  [00:42:24] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. I literally handed the whole thing over to Dan and Robert, who's our pre-construction team, and I said, I'm the client now, so I got, I'm the client, I'm the client. You, you tell me what you need from me. Yeah. I said this to Nicole. 

  [00:42:35] Matt: I was like, you be the client. Oh, it didn't go down well. Yeah. 

  [00:42:39] Hamish: Yeah.

  [00:42:39] Hamish: I just think, I think as a builder, we've, we. We're always half glass full. We're always so ambitious with timelines. Yeah. Particularly when it's our own home. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I've literally begrudgingly just gone. There you go, Dan. It's hard. Tell me, tell me what you need from me. Yeah. Now. Yeah. 

  [00:42:58] Matt: Cool. Can't go my one more.

  [00:42:59] Matt: You [00:43:00] go. So, all right. You have 371 podcasts, so it's be eight years of podcasting, roughly, or probably a bit more. Uh, end of 

  [00:43:06] Amelia: 2016, so December, 2016. So yeah. Almost nine. Yeah. So 

  [00:43:10] Matt: I wanna play a little game. 

  [00:43:12] Amelia: Okay. 

  [00:43:12] Matt: What episode comes to your mind first? 

  [00:43:15] Amelia: Uh, season one, episode one. It's the most downloaded episode.

  [00:43:18] Amelia: Still. Really Season 

  [00:43:18] Hamish: one, episode one. Who was on that? 

  [00:43:20] Amelia: Uh, it was me talking about why it's important to design for orientation. Okay. Have 

  [00:43:23] Matt: you gone back and listened to it and been like, what? Like the way that you obviously are so clearly communicated now with the experience, were you just like, I sounded like crap?

  [00:43:31] Matt: Or you like, oh my, I can't believe I You would've nailed it. You 

  [00:43:33] Hamish: would've 

  [00:43:33] Amelia: nailed it the first time, I think. Well, I was, no, I, I dunno about that. I'm gonna go back and listen it. I'm gonna listen to it now too. When I started the podcast, I'd already been blogging for a couple of years. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So the podcast was an opportunity for me to have deeper conversations with the audience, uh, and also for me to be more methodical and proactive because all of my blogging had been quite reactive.

  [00:43:54] Amelia: It had been, oh, this question's come up. I gotta write a blog post. Let's do it. Yeah. When I started Undercover Architect, I made a commitment [00:44:00] I was going to send out a weekly blog, and I did that for those two years. And then, um, and then, yeah, the podcast began and I worked with R Corbett, who's an incredible.

  [00:44:09] Amelia: Woman that, um, like is in media and stuff like that. And now very close friend and she helped me plan the first, uh, I like sat down and went, oh, I wanna talk about orientation. She's like, tell me about it. And I was like, well, I think I could do an episode on this. And as I mapped it out, she went, that's a whole season.

  [00:44:24] Amelia: And then we did that with how to design a home. And then we did that with budget and all of a sudden I had years worth of content Wow. For that first, you know, like in terms of the structure of it. And so I went into starting the podcast with that in mind, and I was on a network when I first started and all of that kind of thing.

  [00:44:37] Amelia: So what was, what's been really amazing to see is that somebody will discover the podcast through a Google search or something like that, or somebody will have sent them an episode. And then they go back and they binge it from the beginning. Mm-hmm. That's right. Do. And they literally start moving through season by season.

  [00:44:51] Amelia: The interviews didn't start until I did, started doing the ones in season four, but then I didn't do any again until I did the season with Dwayne, I [00:45:00] think in season seven. And then what's been really awesome this past year is actually bringing Home Method members onto the podcast and telling our stories.

  [00:45:07] Amelia: A few of them listen to a few of them, and that's been like, that came off the back of sitting in an architectural conference. Kevin McLeod being zoomed in from on a TV screen. And hearing him talk about people's projects, and I remember messaging my community coordinator and saying, Hey, how about we do a grand designs on audio with home method members?

  [00:45:26] Amelia: But we do it without all of the drama mistakes and horrific stories. We actually show that projects can go well. 

  [00:45:32] Hamish: Yeah. 

  [00:45:32] Amelia: You still have hiccups and hurdles 'cause it's a custom project and that's just what happens. But you can show how people actually navigate it. And so we then put a call out to the community and thankfully lots of community members came back and said, yeah, I'm happy to share my story of, I mean, so really we, I find the undercover architect community is quite different to a lot of other communities out there.

  [00:45:49] Amelia: They're, they are very private. So they don't necessarily wanna talk about their budgets. Um, there's a lot of judgment attached around money and that kind of stuff, but I've been so grateful that there's been so many home method members who've been willing to come [00:46:00] on, be really vulnerable about where they feel like they've tripped up, where they've feel like they've done well, and we get to share how different all of these experiences are as a result.

  [00:46:08] Hamish: so you've fixed homeowners, I dunno about that. 

  [00:46:11] Amelia: You've, I know there are still people posting stuff online that is in complete ignorance of what I teach. You've, so I still have work to do. You've, 

  [00:46:19] Hamish: you've fixed the builders. Yeah. We're still working on that. Who, who's next? Architects. That's not where I was going.

  [00:46:27] Hamish: Sorry. What's what? No, no. It's a serious question. What's next for Amelia? 

  [00:46:30] Amelia: So I turned 50 in, uh, 2023 Spring 

  [00:46:35] Matt: Chicken. 

  [00:46:36] Amelia: Uh, and yeah, no, I, I still feel like I've got a lot left in my career and what's been coming through to me so much more significantly, particularly in the work that I've been doing in live life build and then also just working with homeowners.

  [00:46:50] Amelia: Is, uh, and I spoke about this on Undercover Architects podcast a little while ago, is that I firmly believe that pretty much 99.9% of the problems in the residential [00:47:00] construction industry that everybody complains about could be solved if more women were on site and running construction building businesses.

  [00:47:07] Amelia: Oh, let's 

  [00:47:07] Matt: finish it there, Michael. Now we've got a, we've got one thing that we now need to add into this podcast, which is a first what? We've got a new segment. Having Amelia back? 

  [00:47:17] Hamish: No. So Amelia's now a regular, so I, I agree, by the way. Yeah. I, I, and I saw 

  [00:47:24] Amelia: your post that you did Yeah, the other day and I was jumping up and down in my office.

  [00:47:28] Amelia: Just like be, and you and I have had lots of conversations about this offline. We Yeah. About how passionate I'm about this. Yeah. And I know that it's something that you really support. I, 

  [00:47:36] Matt: yeah. And Matt too. Matt's got, I couldn't work with another male in the office. You don't need two of me like I on 

  [00:47:42] Hamish: because you've got, you've got, um, I've got Kayla and Molly.

  [00:47:44] Hamish: And Molly. 

  [00:47:45] Amelia: Yeah. Yeah. And to me that. Having them on site is the thing that's going to shift stuff because agree. It's all like, there are loads of women behind the scenes. I mean, in live life build, we have so many women that are running their husband. Yeah. Like running the family building business, the Unsu, the Sun Heroes.

  [00:47:58] Amelia: Yeah. Uh, behind the scenes and holding everything [00:48:00] together, not just from a, a building administration point of view, but from a mental health point of view, from a sanity point of view, all of that kind of stuff. And so for me, the big lever swing would be, we've currently got about two to 3% of trades on site are women.

  [00:48:14] Amelia: If we could, apparently the, the stat is we only need to see 25% for a massive cultural shift. So it's, we're not actually even needing to get to halfway for it to be significant. You and I have spoken about how different it makes behavior on site. 

  [00:48:28] Hamish: Massive. 

  [00:48:28] Amelia: Um, and I, you know, I'm seeing all these movements where there's, you know, women in that are listing out women tradies and, you know, you can, if you're, I've, I've spoken to people who as a single, like I, there's lots of single women in home Method who are specifically only working with women for their projects.

  [00:48:45] Amelia: For me, it's not about that. I know that that is what is required to help things shift. However, I would just love to see that more building businesses, we've got this massive trade shortage and yet we are leaving behind 50% of the population because we haven't figured out how can a woman do [00:49:00] still do school, drop off, and then work on a construction site.

  [00:49:02] Matt: I think, I think AI is gonna change us in a sense that there's gonna be so many people lose their jobs, that trades are gonna be one of the safest jobs. Need hands, but 

  [00:49:10] Amelia: it's still, the lifestyle of a tradie does not work for a woman with kids who is the primary caregiver. That's for even just for 

  [00:49:16] Matt: a lot of men with kids that are like, and not trying to pull away from females for a second, but like it needs to be.

  [00:49:22] Matt: But that's the thing, anytime you get 

  [00:49:23] Amelia: women involved, it benefits men as well. Yeah, I agree. I agree. 

  [00:49:25] Hamish: So I, I'm gonna call that, look right now I'm wearing a t-shirt called the Handy Humans. Right? So this is a, uh, and I'm a big shout out to Sal. So Sal and her team are a female and queer run. Handy humans.

  [00:49:40] Hamish: They're called, uh, in the south coast of, um, new South Wales. And I love this story because it is such a minority in our industry right now. But this shows that there is space for it and shows that someone can have a successful company. And Sally, if you're listening, I'm gonna get you on, we're gonna get you on the podcast for sure.

  [00:49:57] Hamish: But like this, we need to see more of this because. [00:50:00] Thi this, in my opinion. Uh, Trent even said it as well, this will have such a massive positive impact in the industry if we can get more women on site. 

  [00:50:09] Amelia: Do you know what, when women were asked man or bear, they chose bear, 

  [00:50:13] Hamish: I would too. 

  [00:50:14] Amelia: And yet they walk into an industry that is male dominated and yet you as a male are walking into their home, often dealing with them on their own.

  [00:50:23] Hamish: Mm. 

  [00:50:24] Amelia: And the more that you have women on your team about that Yeah. Women as the liaison. You are clocked on the fact that how a woman needs to work is different to how a man needs to work. And I know I'm being generalist here. I don't wanna leave behind all the L-G-B-T-Q-I community and all. Yeah. Can't solve everything though 

  [00:50:39] Hamish: for 

  [00:50:39] Amelia: me.

  [00:50:39] Amelia: This is really, I think that once we start cracking this down, it will open up for all of that. 

  [00:50:45] Hamish: Agree. 

  [00:50:45] Amelia: And to me it's a dinosaur of an industry. It's a fucking dinosaur of an industry. Got swear. Two swear words. We need a swear jar's this thing of. You know, you still see apprentices being given birthday cakes that have got tits and brass on them, like, and [00:51:00] it being shared on social media, like you still hear the jokes.

  [00:51:04] Amelia: Yeah, we do. And I know as a woman, like if I don't laugh along, I make everyone uncomfortable. 

  [00:51:10] Hamish: Yeah. Yeah. You know, so And then your pigeonhole. Yes. Yeah. You know, so 

  [00:51:15] Amelia: it's really, really interesting to see. I love seeing it change. There is change happening for me, change will never happen fast enough. We're in a bubble again.

  [00:51:22] Matt: We're probably all through, you probably deal with people who are. Probably like-minded anyway. So it's now accessing the people that is already hard enough to access. 

  [00:51:30] Amelia: Yeah, and I would, I mean, but I think the thing is like whilst the HIA and the NBA are screaming for more immigration to solve the trade problem.

  [00:51:37] Amelia: Mm-hmm. How about we actually just look at the 50% of the population that are available and we figure out how do we change the working hours and situations of construction so that it's more accessible for a woman? 

  [00:51:47] Hamish: What a, I think it's a great. No. I'm gonna finish. We've 

  [00:51:50] Matt: gotta finish on no new segment.

  [00:51:51] Matt: We've got the mindful moment. Okay. Mindful moment. 

  [00:51:53] Hamish: Yes. That is a surely that's a mindful moment. It is. You're 

  [00:51:55] Amelia: doing, you are doing so well to keep this on the hour. No, trying. Trying to try. We 

  [00:52:00] Hamish: honestly, three minutes we could, we got six minutes. We could turn this into a triple, like we could just record all 

  [00:52:05] Matt: day.

  [00:52:05] Matt: Now we are starting a bit of a new segment. At the end of each podcast, we are going to kind of give a bit of a tip to. Sort of anything, any one of something that we've sort of come up with in the last week. So, um, our good friends at MEGT, um, who I have three, two of my apprentices signed up with. I think you've got, I've got two.

  [00:52:24] Matt: You've got two. So, um, they've jumped on board to sponsor this segment each week. So. It is the mind. It's gonna be known as the mindful moment, brought to you by MED GT Australia's apprenticeship experts. So, um, the holiday is Hamish and I would kind of give a bit of a tip of something that we've learned in the last week.

  [00:52:41] Matt: It might not be just towards apprentices, but it's something that we think that could, someone could go away and help or think of something to sort of, uh, improve their situation. So I have this week, um, so one thing I've been doing, I've been doing it for a while, but it's become a bit of a game with my team, is I actually always ask them what they've planned.

  [00:52:57] Matt: And I'll ask them at like seven 15 in the morning, what have [00:53:00] you learned today? And they've just started. But now Molly, my first year, so we go back to women being smart. She asked me before I get to her and I'm like, fucking seven 15 in the morning, Molly. And she's like, well, you do it to me. It's seven 15.

  [00:53:12] Matt: So, um, the reason I do it is it's 'cause it's like, it just sometimes an apprentice, it's very easy just to go through the every days of just, I rock up, get my tools out, start work, but not actually realizing what you're learning to stop and have that moment. So one thing I make them do at the moment is like, what did you learn?

  [00:53:26] Matt: And explain to me what you've learned today. 

  [00:53:28] Hamish: Um, I love that 'cause it, because it, when you actually think about what you've learned, it doesn't just become, oh, that's a hard week. It's like, I really need to think about the work that I did that week and then that carries on to the next week. Yeah. I really like that.

  [00:53:39] Hamish: And it 

  [00:53:39] Matt: kind of goes back to when the, the question of why we, I love the question why should be like, oh, I learned to straighten more. It's like, what did you learn? Straightening walls, what part of straightening walls? And then she'd be like, she explain it further and then she was like, I asked her the same question about a week later, and she's like, I learned straightening walls, like you said that a few weeks ago.

  [00:53:56] Matt: What else have you learned? So it's more like, oh, what extra bit did you [00:54:00] learn? So I think that it's a really important message to like challenge your team. It doesn't have to be on site. It can be in any industry, whether you're an engineer, building surveyor, anyone really, but 

  [00:54:07] Hamish: architect, 

  [00:54:08] Matt: architect. It just, even just in marketing, it could be someone that's completely removed from the building industry, um, just to sort of continue to learn.

  [00:54:15] Matt: And challenge yourself and see what you've learn. So that's my mindful, that's awesome moment. Um, Amelia, 

  [00:54:21] Hamish: thank 

  [00:54:22] Matt: you so much. How do we get onto you, by the way? If you live under a rock? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 

  [00:54:26] Amelia: Uh, undercover architect.com and Undercover Architect on Instagram and Facebook. 

  [00:54:30] Hamish: And also Live life Build.

  [00:54:31] Hamish: Yes. Live like Build Big Plug to live like Build and Dwayne. And again, you don't follow Dwayne on and don't listen his podcast. Jump on it, check it out. 

  [00:54:38] Amelia: I do have in a TikTok account, but no, not on that is we have too, I 

  [00:54:42] Matt: never looked at the most toxic. I thought Facebook was bad in the comments. TikTok takes the cake.

  [00:54:47] Matt: It is a whole nother level 

  [00:54:49] Amelia: of like what you, I don't spend any time there. So you know you've 

  [00:54:50] Hamish: made it when you're get trolled. Oh really? I said this to, I said this to Jess the other day. Right? Because she called someone like, oh, you've made it well done. Yeah, yeah. You've made it. What a 

  [00:54:58] Matt: sad. And they're always with no profile [00:55:00] picture.

  [00:55:00] Matt: Oh, what a sad laugh. They must live. Amelia, thank you. Thank you very much. That's my 

  [00:55:03] Amelia: pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Thank. It's been a privilege.