Ask the builders anything - open discussion on our thoughts about the industry

Written By Matthew Carland

“High performance doesn’t stop at products. It’s the system.” 

That was the thread running through our latest conversation with Sven Maxa from Maxa Design, and it’s a good reminder for anyone who thinks Passive House is just a shopping list of premium materials. This episode was a little different. We flipped the usual format and let Sven lead the discussion, which meant we were the ones in the hot seat for once.

What followed was a proper behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to deliver high-performance homes in the real world. Not the glossy version. The version with airtightness targets, contract realities, messy documentation, and the constant need for clear communication.

Collaboration is Not Optional

If there was one theme that kept coming up, it was collaboration. Passive House and high-performance building only works when designers and builders are aligned early. Ideally, everyone is engaged simultaneously, working as one team from day one.

Yes, the numbers matter. Cost planning matters. But so does transparency. So does being honest about what is possible, what is risky, and what needs to be locked in early to avoid blowouts and rework later.

When High Performance Becomes a System

Sven challenged us on where high performance stops being about the product and becomes about the system. That question matters because it changes how you approach the whole build.

High-performance outcomes come from consistent execution. Testing. Verification. Attention to detail across every trade and every stage. You cannot buy your way into performance if the process is loose.

The Industry Reality Check

We also got into the parts of building that rarely make it into marketing. Missteps. Client challenges. Boundary setting. The complexity that comes from unclear documentation, or documentation that prioritises aesthetics over buildability.

We shared stories about tricky clients and the extra layers of difficulty that show up when you are building for friends or family. The lesson is simple. Clear boundaries and clear expectations are not cold. They are kind. They protect everyone.

What Needs to Change Next

We finished by looking forward. Legislation and education are where we see the next big leaps in residential construction. If we want better buildings at scale, change has to be systemic. Higher minimum standards. Better industry training. More shared understanding of why these details matter.

Because when you raise the baseline, you do not just improve comfort and efficiency. You reduce risk, improve durability, and lift the whole idustry.

This episode is a reminder that Passive House is not a trend. It is a discipline. It rewards teams who communicate early, document properly, and treat performance as something you verify, not something you assume.


LINKS:

Connect with Sven:

Maxa Design


Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:  www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

  • [00:00:00] Matt: Ever feel like there's a better way to build? So do we. I'm Matt and welcome to the Mindful Builder Podcast, where we believe in education through storytelling. Join me and my co-host Hamish, as we both have a passion for building better breaking barriers and sharing our experience within the building industry.

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    [00:00:51] Your support helps us reach new listeners and even better allows us to book incredible guests for the future episodes. Thank you so much for being part of our community. We [00:01:00] truly appreciate you and now onto this week's episode

    [00:01:05] today. So, hey, we're recording. We 

    [00:01:08] Hamish: started I think 

    [00:01:08] Matt: Yeah, we're started. We're recording from the pro climber studio, proli built to Last, 

    [00:01:14] Hamish: which happens to be hit verse hype. 

    [00:01:16] Matt: Yeah, we're hit vhi um, today, which is great. So we're recording a little pod outta here. Um, got a pretty cool, but probably a bit of a different guest.

    [00:01:24] So we'd usually have on our podcast and someone that I've actually had written down from a long time ago 

    [00:01:28] Hamish: versus is Yeah. I remember you were like, I'm gonna get this semi guy and go, who the fuck is he? 

    [00:01:31] Matt: Yeah, and it's, I know we usually tips sit on a lot of building science topics and stuff like that, but I wanted to go a little bit left field and go back to just pure carpentry.

    [00:01:41] That's what we've started our Yep. Uh, journey in this industry as. Yep. Um. We have spoken at length in times about like how you identify to certain builders, and they always go back to carpenters. But you are still practicing as a carpenter and you're very, very proud of being a carpenter. Like it's 

    [00:01:57] Sam: Yeah.

    [00:01:57] Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. 

    [00:01:58] Matt: So like it, like I [00:02:00] visually, soon as I come across your profile one day and I think you're doing a passive house or saying, that's how I kind of got fed your algorithm. Yeah. I was like, who, Sam? And I just saw instant passion. Definitely. Like, just like, like literally I'm a carpenter and I fucking love it and I, I want to, I guess a lot of the conversation I have in my head about how today might go is I kind of want to give it a bit of an insight to designers, architects, engineers, interior designers.

    [00:02:29] You hear it from a builder, but you're getting filter. We, we filter a little bit of information sometimes. Yep. And I want to get it from a tradie, someone who's actually tool about on. Nailing stuff that what is also different to what we would usually talk about is, and I I'm gonna ask you this question.

    [00:02:44] You have referred yourself, I just do volume builder homes, and I don't like that because I, not that I, fuck, I'm picking about volume builder. There's like, you're more than that. Does that make sense? Like you are, you're, you're like, you are shutting yourself down as like, no, you're very good at what you do.

    [00:02:58] Hamish: Because, because I was reading through your [00:03:00] responses to the questions that we set out, and, um, you've often, I mean, and you can talk to this a little bit more, so Madrid works with the volume builder, but I always put quality first and 

    [00:03:10] Sam: I Yeah. I think that's very important. 

    [00:03:12] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:03:12] Sam: yeah, yeah. 

    [00:03:12] Hamish: Maybe you just 

    [00:03:13] Matt: talk.

    [00:03:13] Look. So who are you? 

    [00:03:14] Sam: Who are you? 

    [00:03:15] Hamish: Let you talk. 

    [00:03:15] Sam: Well, yeah, Sammy Aiken. I, um, I started my Instagram page or maybe, I don't even think, maybe two years ago now. 

    [00:03:23] Hamish: Yeah. Wow. 

    [00:03:23] Sam: And I just sort of, I just thought, why not one day? Yeah. I just seen, I seen other accounts doing it and I kind of, I wasn't bored with what I was doing.

    [00:03:33] Obvious. Obviously you guys see I love what I do. Yeah. But I was like, I reckon I can do that too. 

    [00:03:38] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:03:38] Sam: Kind of nar on it for a bit. And I was like, oh, you know, 'cause there's always the risk of putting yourself out there. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna make a fool of yourself. Right. Were 

    [00:03:47] Matt: you scared that first time?

    [00:03:48] Sam: Oh yeah, yeah. I still do things now. And I'm like, I'm petrified, like talking the camera or something that's like, yeah. You just sort of, you sit there and you're like, oh, oh, you, you, you just ponder it for a bit and then you just, you [00:04:00] do it. And people often say to you like, oh, how do you do that? And it's like, I struggle.

    [00:04:03] That's how I do it. Yeah. Like it's, um, 

    [00:04:05] Hamish: has has, I mean, has, has getting in front of people and talking always been something you've done? Like 

    [00:04:09] Sam: Uh, no. No, definitely not. Definitely not. It seems 

    [00:04:11] Hamish: super confident. Yeah. 

    [00:04:13] Sam: Everyone says that, but I just, I, I dunno. You obviously, you look at yourself so much, but I don't see it.

    [00:04:18] It's like, I think what, it's definitely something I've have to learn. 

    [00:04:20] Hamish: I think what works for you though is that it doesn't feel curated. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's more, it's so much I do pride 

    [00:04:27] Sam: myself on that. Yeah. 

    [00:04:28] Hamish: But it's so much more relatable. 'cause I, I see you do it and I, I've been following you for a bit now, by the way.

    [00:04:32] Yeah. So I do know who you are. Uh, and I'm like, fuck, this guy is passionate. I love the passion that comes through. So I'm on 

    [00:04:37] Matt: sleeve and that's why I wanna get back this's. Why, like, and tradies get taken advantage of constantly and, but they trades are people pleasers and they always want to do the best thing, even when they cut corners and even when they fuck up, they are always trying their hardest, I feel.

    [00:04:55] Mm-hmm. And that's why I get the visual of that. Like you is like, I fucking put [00:05:00] my arse on the line to do my best. 

    [00:05:02] Sam: Yeah. It's hard. There's, I think there's also maybe a point worth mentioning is there's always a difference between, uh, delivering the best product and doing your best with like the resources and materials and whatnot that are given to you.

    [00:05:16] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:05:16] Sam: So I know like you guys do the pro climber stuff and that. And I'd love to dabble in the, the highest end of wraps and stuff, but in the, I suppose the realm of carpentry that I deal with, that might never actually be a possibility. Like it just, it won't be a thing. Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but I don't, don't actually have my own company like I am.

    [00:05:35] Yeah, no, you work for someone else. Yeah. I'm an employee and I work for another carpenter and he subcontracts to mostly volume builders. 

    [00:05:42] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:05:43] Sam: But, um, yeah, it's 

    [00:05:44] Hamish: just, hang on. How does, how does, how does your employer like, think of you? Like, Hey, I'm doing 

    [00:05:48] it. 

    [00:05:48] Sam: Oh, he loves it. Because you can just, can that question?

    [00:05:52] It's a good way for him to just Yeah. Like that good banter on site, you know? 

    [00:05:55] Hamish: Yeah. But what you were saying before, I've seen some of your photos, of your videos [00:06:00] of, uh, window installation and then the care that you actually take. Yeah, yeah. You're right. It's not the wrap that I'd use, but the care that you take to install that wrap and install that window.

    [00:06:09] So I still think that's better building. 

    [00:06:11] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:06:12] Hamish: So I still think there's an element of pride 

    [00:06:13] Matt: and stuff, and that's why I go against, when you said, I'm just a volume builder, I'm like, no, you're not. 

    [00:06:17] Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

    [00:06:18] Hamish: Well, 

    [00:06:19] Sam: they're, so it's even hard with, um, like that video in particular, I did a couple of windows with that exact detail, but the builder doesn't actually supply that stuff.

    [00:06:27] So that was a paid partnership with Vapor Seal. 

    [00:06:29] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:06:29] Sam: Okay. That, that particular video. Yeah. And they're gonna use that on their socials and whatever, and there might be some more things that come in the future with them too. 

    [00:06:36] Hamish: Great. 

    [00:06:36] Sam: But that is great, and it's great that I can demonstrate the correct way in which things should be done, but the real, the reality is like the builder's not gonna provide all that material to do that on every single job.

    [00:06:49] Hamish: Just so you can get content. 

    [00:06:51] Sam: Yeah. Or, but not even just so we can get content, but just because like, they should be doing, like that's how it should be done. Yeah. That it's not, 

    [00:06:58] Hamish: the budget's 

    [00:06:58] Sam: not there. It's, it's certainly [00:07:00] not. Yeah. The budget's not there and it's even not policed in the right manner. Like, I've got some stuff I can show you after this of some builders that have done some pretty ordinary wrap jobs that we've just gone and installed the windows on.

    [00:07:11] And like, it's just like, 

    [00:07:12] Matt: and 

    [00:07:13] Sam: what do you do there? 

    [00:07:14] Matt: Do you fix it? 

    [00:07:14] Sam: Well, there's nothing you can do because we don't. Or if we were to do something about it, it's just straight out of our pocket. 

    [00:07:20] Matt: Yeah, 

    [00:07:21] Sam: yeah. I understand that. And it's a bit, it's also, it's a, it's probably another layer of difficult as well, because at the end of the day, I'm not paying the bills.

    [00:07:28] I'm an employee. Yeah. So if I take time outta my day to fix something, that's not even our problem. My boss comes to me and says, why, why are you doing that? Yeah. Are you on the tools with him at all? So 

    [00:07:37] Matt: he's still on the tools with you? 

    [00:07:38] Sam: Yeah, he is on the tools quite a bit. Yeah. More, more than what I think a lot of people that know him realize he is actually on the tools.

    [00:07:43] Yeah. 

    [00:07:44] Hamish: Okay. 

    [00:07:44] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:07:44] Hamish: And how long are you outta your apprenticeship? How old are you now? 

    [00:07:46] Sam: I am 30 this year. So still 39 I can say. I'm not 30 yet. So, 

    [00:07:51] Hamish: so, and, and, and was your Pathway School apprenticeship and you've just sort of stuck, you've stuck at it for now. 

    [00:07:59] Sam: Yeah. Let's talk [00:08:00] about that. So I did, I always knew I wanted to be a builder slash chippy.

    [00:08:05] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:08:05] Sam: I always wanted to do that from like, I'm gonna say like. Primary school. 

    [00:08:10] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:08:10] Sam: That's always what I wanted to 

    [00:08:11] Hamish: do. And, and, and do I, am I making the assumption right? Grew up in the country, kind of country kinda lifestyle? Were you on land by 

    [00:08:17] Sam: No, we weren't on land. I mean, we grew up in small towns. Yeah.

    [00:08:21] I grew up in a town called Caras Brook, which has like a couple thousand people top. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's pretty small. And then I moved to Ballarat to do my apprenticeship. 

    [00:08:31] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:08:32] Sam: I spent my first three years in my apprenticeship, like house sharing with mates and stuff and working for nothing. But 

    [00:08:38] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:08:38] Sam: I mean, I'm still pretty young, what I call nothing.

    [00:08:42] A lot of people that I get along with now, like they were making half of what I was making when they were a first year, second year and whatever. Yeah. So they probably think I was raking it in, but, um, so did me apprenticeship, um, became qualified. I actually got signed off like not super early, like a couple months early.

    [00:08:59] [00:09:00] My boss did his back. Yeah. And had no one to sort of do the day-to-day sort of thing, and I just sort of had to man up, I guess. I just had to be pushed in. I didn't have to be pushed into that role, but I, I felt I was capable of doing it and just sort of went into that and started essentially running the jobs.

    [00:09:21] He was definitely close by over my shoulder to oversee everything. Yeah. So I wasn't like completely thrown in the deep end as such, but when it come to day to day stuff on site, he was probably off the tools and offsite for probably six months, I reckon. 

    [00:09:34] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. This is your, your current boss? No, this is 

    [00:09:36] Sam: this, yeah.

    [00:09:37] Current boss. I've worked for the same boss my whole career. 

    [00:09:40] Hamish: Oh, 

    [00:09:40] Sam: wow. I wanna get to that in a second. I was his, I was his first ever apprentice too, so. 

    [00:09:45] Hamish: Right. 

    [00:09:45] Sam: Yeah. First ever apprentice. And you're 

    [00:09:46] Hamish: still good on you for, I mean, he must be a great guy. 

    [00:09:50] Sam: He's a fantastic bloke. He's an absolute character. Yeah.

    [00:09:52] Right. Yeah. He's very, very. He is very cheeky. He's very, uh, yeah, he's good. 

    [00:09:57] Hamish: Yeah. And, and he's, he's, he's been in [00:10:00] that kinda, um, volume builder space for his entire career as well. 

    [00:10:04] Sam: Yeah. So he did his apprenticeship building, uh, mostly transportable houses. Yeah. What I can sort of understand with talking to him that they did do new homes as well.

    [00:10:13] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:10:14] Sam: But that was sort of his old boss's main bread and butter. 

    [00:10:16] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:10:17] Sam: And then he went out on his own and just started picking up subby work with volume builders and stuff. 

    [00:10:23] Matt: What volume builders do you work for currently? 

    [00:10:25] Sam: Uh, currently in Ballarat we work for Boutique, which is Boutique Home Buyers Center.

    [00:10:30] Yep. Um, and we just started picking up Metricon stuff again. Yep. And I'm 

    [00:10:38] Hamish: trying to 

    [00:10:38] Sam: see of the other main, and we build for, they're not really, uh, volume builders in Ballarat, but they're sort of main builders in Ballarat and McMaster Homes And, uh, street out homes will sometimes do some of their work.

    [00:10:50] They've got a, a group of, um, in-house chippies, but. When they get busy. Yep. We'll jump on board and help them out too. 

    [00:10:57] Matt: And you'll do everything from like a subfloor all [00:11:00] the way through to a fix 

    [00:11:01] Sam: sometimes. 

    [00:11:02] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. But you're capable, that's what I mean. 

    [00:11:03] Sam: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I, that's a good point.

    [00:11:06] I think every carpenter should be capable to build a house from like Earth, raw Earth to Kate. 

    [00:11:14] Matt: So, so I, this is a good conversation because. I feel if we wanna improve our industry in the carpentry perspective, I think we actually kind of potentially need to go a little bit different to that. And yes, a traditional carpet.

    [00:11:26] I'm gonna carpenter, I'm gonna agree. Should we start to finish? Like, that is a carpenter, but why can't we break it down to little subcategories like plumbing where 

    [00:11:33] Sam: I love this. 

    [00:11:34] Matt: We just, you're 

    [00:11:35] Sam: just, I've wanted to make a reel on this. I was talking with one of, one of my good friends the other day about this, and I believe framing itself should be a 

    [00:11:41] Matt: A trade.

    [00:11:42] Sam: A trade. 

    [00:11:42] Matt: Yep. Yep. You can just be 

    [00:11:43] Sam: a fucking gun framer and Yeah. Yeah. You can be a gun framer. You can be bloody proud to be that too. 

    [00:11:48] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:11:49] Sam: You don't have to know it all. You can just specialize in a field. It's no different to plumbers just being roofers. 

    [00:11:54] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:11:54] Sam: It's no different. 

    [00:11:55] Matt: Yeah. You like at your trade school, slightly adapted, so you spend more time learning to do trusses [00:12:00] pitching a roof.

    [00:12:01] Yeah, maybe some CLT panels. Um, I 

    [00:12:03] Hamish: mean, and the, the, the fact is we've got this massive trade shortage. Like why not shorten that period of, if you, you could make an expert in one or two years Just framing. Yeah. Just, and then just put 'em out. Just fix, 

    [00:12:15] Sam: just 

    [00:12:15] Hamish: cladding. Yeah. 

    [00:12:16] Sam: There's plenty of carpenters I know that are just finished carpenters.

    [00:12:19] That's all I do. They just go cla cladding, fix cladding, fix cladding fix. And that's, that's what they do. That's what they specialize in. They're bloody good at it. 

    [00:12:25] Matt: Yeah. Like that. 

    [00:12:25] Sam: That's it. Add sub 

    [00:12:27] Matt: floors in as well. Or 

    [00:12:28] Sam: like, but get 'em on a frame. They'd be way outta their depth. And then it's the opposite too.

    [00:12:32] Yeah. We, we have blokes 'cause we do predominantly framing. If we just dumped them on a fix, they'd be so outta their depth. 

    [00:12:38] Hamish: Yeah. I mean, I guarantee if, if, if you jumped on one of my building sites and I put you next to some of my chippies, 'cause we do everything start to finish, like we're form work concreting, you know, we're, we're boxing slabs, we're installing, still, we're doing everything.

    [00:12:51] Sam: I love that. And I feel like. I, I want that for every carpenter. You know? I want everyone to be able to ex just at least experience building a house from like start to [00:13:00] finish. And I 

    [00:13:00] Hamish: think that you need to be able to experience, I agree with it, but I guarantee you would run fucking rings around my team when it comes to just framing.

    [00:13:06] Just 

    [00:13:06] Matt: process though. Just like you, like Yeah, no, 

    [00:13:09] Sam: talk out. Yeah. And then there'd be others places where I'd fall to pieces and then just take over. Feel like that's, yeah. We show 

    [00:13:14] Matt: you like, hey, this is how we 

    [00:13:15] Sam: do 

    [00:13:16] Matt: it. And you'd be like, oh, awesome. I get that 

    [00:13:17] Sam: now. And I feel like that's okay. 

    [00:13:18] Hamish: Yeah, I 

    [00:13:19] Sam: agree with that.

    [00:13:19] It needs to, the industry needs to have some sort of. I dunno what you call it. Like a, 

    [00:13:23] Matt: a reset? 

    [00:13:24] Sam: Yeah. Restructure or something around it. It, I 

    [00:13:26] Hamish: thinks you, you brought up, sorry to interrupt. You brought up the podcast that Brian and Simon did with, um, the guy from HAA. From HA. He said it, he goes, we should, we should be fooc.

    [00:13:36] We, we've got this massive shortage. We should be focusing on doing certificates around certain things. Mm. Someone hanging doors. Yeah. Become an expert at hanging doors. Roll them out. 

    [00:13:46] Sam: Yeah. Get the specialist. Now 

    [00:13:47] Hamish: I'm an 

    [00:13:48] Matt: expert in doing Aries and skirting. Add that to your list 

    [00:13:50] Hamish: and you can, you incrementally build up your little certificates.

    [00:13:54] At some point you can become an A, 

    [00:13:57] Sam: is that not what plumbing is? 

    [00:13:59] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:13:59] Sam: Like you can [00:14:00] be a qualified plumber without being licensed in anything. Perhaps introducing licenses, but also holds people accountable for things too. 

    [00:14:07] Hamish: Yeah. And maybe there's a base level that you need to do. So maybe there's a year of.

    [00:14:11] Just standard 

    [00:14:12] Matt: understanding timber and 

    [00:14:14] Hamish: structure and safety engineering plans, plans and all that stuff. And then after that you can specialize in like a, a quicker way to earning more money is this pathway. Or you can go this pathway to be fully qualified to, to get your certificate. Three. 

    [00:14:27] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:14:28] Matt: And just add in as you go.

    [00:14:29] Like you, you, you, which means we 

    [00:14:31] Hamish: to solve the problem. We can turn it off, it, 

    [00:14:32] Matt: turn the camera off. But, but it's good to hear it from someone like yourself because I get scared saying it. I'm sitting in my office in my chinos and rms with the B birken with, with my, but like when, but I get disconnected still from the, the average tradie.

    [00:14:49] I see my team on site, but like they're in a bubble and then we go back to what Sam's doing. And when I hear him say that, why don't we do it? They're like, I'm like, no, no. Like if he's agreeing, [00:15:00] 

    [00:15:00] Hamish: yeah, 

    [00:15:00] Matt: we, we need to look at this a little bit differently. And because people are proud to be carpenters and they're scared to lose that title.

    [00:15:07] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:15:08] Sam: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. 

    [00:15:09] Matt: They're scared to have it stripped away with them, but it can be done. 'cause we've seen it in plumbing, we see it in electrical. We're seeing it. We're seeing it. Like 

    [00:15:16] Hamish: Yeah. You can be like, I'm a carpenter specializing in this. 

    [00:15:20] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. 

    [00:15:20] Matt: Still close. 

    [00:15:20] Sam: Absolutely. The doctors do it, you 

    [00:15:22] Hamish: know?

    [00:15:22] Sam: Yeah. Oh 

    [00:15:24] Matt: yeah. The, the oncologist isn't upset that the cardio surgeon's doing their thing, and I don't know about that. Like, yeah, you, you just specialize. And that's how we, and I think within that you get pride. You get more pride. 'cause like, no, I'm a fixed carpenter. 

    [00:15:36] Hamish: We can speed too though. I mean, mm.

    [00:15:38] Quality. I'm sure. Like if you look at the stuff that you guys do again, you would put up a frame in, I would say a 10th of the time that my team had probably 

    [00:15:47] Matt: built. Are you, you mainly stick build or are you prefab? 

    [00:15:49] Sam: Uh, we're probably a third stick build. Two thirds prefab now. For a long time there it was just prefab.

    [00:15:56] Yeah. And then probably wind back a clock, five years. It was just stick frame. [00:16:00] I love, why is that? I love stick frame. Why is that? We're doing a lot for Metricon and they still stick frame. Why? Why is that? 

    [00:16:05] Hamish: Yeah, 

    [00:16:05] Sam: I heard 

    [00:16:06] Hamish: they do stick 

    [00:16:06] Sam: frame. I'm assuming cost. That's, that's what it'd have to come to. You 

    [00:16:09] Matt: think it's, you reckon it's cheaper to stick frame than this to prefab?

    [00:16:12] Sam: I don't think it is because we've done work with other builders before than they've done. They usually do prefab and for whatever reason this was sort of around COVID and they couldn't get the wall frames out. So of like, oh, just wanna stick, build it and it cost them like way more for us to stick build it.

    [00:16:28] Yeah. So I don't, I have a theory, I 

    [00:16:30] Hamish: have a theory on that, and again, I could be completely wrong, but Metricon own forests, so they've got their own timber supply and maybe, yeah, that makes sense. And maybe they don't have a trust plant, so maybe they've got the timber maybe and they just go Right. Well 

    [00:16:42] Matt: a lot of 'em have their own trust plant and they just 

    [00:16:44] Hamish: keep, I, I dunno, I'm just, I'm, I'm just sort of waxing ly question.

    [00:16:47] Matt: There'd be a pretty economic, there'd be a financial reason why at some point 

    [00:16:51] Hamish: if, if Metricon is doing it, there has to be a reason that there would've researched all different ways of putting houses up. 

    [00:16:57] Matt: Sure. Yeah. And where and where do you see the issue? [00:17:00] Where carpentry, other than maybe the licensing structure are around that, like do you see young kids coming through with a change of attitude?

    [00:17:07] Do you see like where, where do you like even going from a stick bill to a prefab frame, where do you see the major differences in pain points from your perspective? 

    [00:17:15] Sam: Probably, I'd have to say, and I was guilty of this myself, learning my trade too, is like you don't understand the why, and unless it's explained to you you don't like you, you might never actually get it.

    [00:17:27] Like you'll do a task a thousand times, but unless you actually understand why you were doing that task, you'll never actually fully comprehend what it is you're doing 

    [00:17:33] Matt: unless you ask why. 

    [00:17:35] Sam: Yeah. Well, 

    [00:17:36] Matt: do you teach why to your apprentices? 

    [00:17:38] Sam: Well, that's a very interesting thing. We're like, as qualified or in any trade, you're never taught to teach anyone.

    [00:17:45] It's such a, 

    [00:17:46] Hamish: I'm, I'm only laughing because this has come up so many times. Yeah. 

    [00:17:49] Sam: It is such a difficult thing and for a long time, like I would still say like, I'm not a perfect teacher, but like I was a terrible teacher, you know? And. It's not until you sort of pull your head outta [00:18:00] your ass and you go, look, I I, I've actually got some sort of due diligence here to Yeah, these kids get it.

    [00:18:05] Matt: How old, how 

    [00:18:05] Hamish: old were you when you finished your apprenticeship? 

    [00:18:07] Sam: I was, I would've been 22. 

    [00:18:10] Matt: So now you 

    [00:18:10] Sam: are 

    [00:18:11] Matt: teaching young, 22-year-old male up and about weekend, gonna bit of money. Now you're gonna be like bit of, bit of power 

    [00:18:19] Hamish: talent. 

    [00:18:19] Matt: Yeah. You probably did, you used to yell at your apprentices to do stuff for then?

    [00:18:23] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And I hate myself for it now because I know, like understanding what it is and like, I actually did it till very recently, probably only 12 months ago, I probably properly pulled my head in and was like, you actually can't treat people like that. 

    [00:18:37] Matt: And what made you get to that point? How did that come about?

    [00:18:40] Sam: Um, a bloke quit and it was basically, 'cause we had a blue and I was like, 

    [00:18:45] Matt: do you wanna talk more about what happened? 

    [00:18:47] Sam: Um, I asked him to do something. He didn't do it. He got into shit about it. We blew up at each other. Like it was just a, a verbal sort of tiff. Yeah. And I basically said, if you don't like it, you can stick it.

    [00:18:58] I went and grabbed something from the hardware [00:19:00] store, got back and he was gone. And I'd had to ring my boss and be like, I think this guy's just quit. 'cause I just had a blow up. He was fairly supportive of me because he wasn't pulling his weight. But I was just the principle of how you about it. I was probably the deciding factor there.

    [00:19:15] Let 

    [00:19:15] Hamish: me ask you this. How, like, knowing what you know now, like sitting here in February in 2026? Yeah. How would you approach that today? The same scenario happened today. 

    [00:19:25] Sam: I've actually never reflected like that. 

    [00:19:26] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. That's 

    [00:19:27] Sam: good question. Well think about it. 

    [00:19:29] Hamish: Yeah. It's all right. We can edit the calls out.

    [00:19:32] No, no, we 

    [00:19:32] Sam: can No edits. Um,

    [00:19:39] no, I definitely could've just Yeah. Cooled the jets a bit. Mm-hmm. Take a breath and be like, like what, what is the actual problem here? Yeah. Because fundamentally what was the problem at the time, it wasn't actually that big of a problem. But you know, when like this little thing will happen and this little bit and this little bit, and then all of a sudden you've got this big problem.

    [00:19:57] Yep. And you can't actually identify what started it. [00:20:00] Yeah. Kinda like that. It's like, all right, let's talk about it. Let's break it down. Let's work out all these little things that are, 

    [00:20:06] Matt: you communicate early enough for the first, the first time it happened. This is why we do Bud. Yeah. Like why, why do we like, Hey, we don't do it this way, we do it this way.

    [00:20:13] Do you want me to show you? Yeah. Yeah. That that'd be great. 

    [00:20:16] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:20:17] Matt: Like you not talk, you said 

    [00:20:18] Hamish: something before. I think I'd take a breath. I think that right there. I've read a book over Christmas. My wife gave it to me and I'm 43. Right. And I grew. And I, my experience in that was 

    [00:20:31] Matt: 50 shades of gray that you read.

    [00:20:32] Yeah. 

    [00:20:34] Hamish: My experience in carpentry was the, was I was kind of at that, that, that tail end of that real yelling culture, you know, the old school builders coming through and it's yell from the moment you get on site to the moment you finish and the moment three 30 kicks over slabs of beer come out and everyone's your best mate.

    [00:20:51] Yeah. 

    [00:20:51] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:20:51] Hamish: That's the culture that I grew up in. 

    [00:20:53] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:20:53] Hamish: And I learned really quickly that that's not how I don't feel good here. 

    [00:20:57] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:20:58] Hamish: And I, it [00:21:00] took me a while to, to kind of weed my way off reacting like that. 

    [00:21:06] Sam: You saying that actually unlocks sort of something for me. I feel like I have that capacity to have like a blue with someone and then five minutes later sit down and have a beer with them.

    [00:21:16] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:21:16] Sam: But then you need to understand that not everyone else has that same capacity. 

    [00:21:21] Hamish: And I would challenge you that if you've got the capacity to do that, you've also got the capacity to stop. For 30 seconds and take a really big, deep breath and center yourself. 

    [00:21:31] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:21:31] Hamish: And then approach the conversation.

    [00:21:33] Matt: Even ask the Apprentice or the other team member, like, how do you think we should approach this situation? Let's stop. What, what? What should we do? 

    [00:21:39] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:21:40] Matt: Like, let them talk and then just be like, why do you think we should do that? 

    [00:21:42] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:21:43] Matt: Okay, cool. But how, what about, how about that? Have you considered that you, your knowledge, especially if they're like junior, you'll slowly, naturally unravel them.

    [00:21:52] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:21:53] Matt: And then you get to them, you want to get to them at that point and going, oh yeah, that's right. Once you get that, [00:22:00] yeah, that's right. You've got them. 

    [00:22:01] Hamish: Well I think, I think like getting back to the 50 grade shade of grade book that I read over Christmas, which is not what it was that way. I've been talking dirty to That's not what it was.

    [00:22:10] Uh, it's actually like the, you read the sequel. The advice is actually really understanding where they're coming from. 

    [00:22:16] Sam: Yes. 

    [00:22:17] Hamish: Yeah. And like that's what's really powerful. So stopping. And then going, okay, cool. Help me understand why you are doing that. 

    [00:22:24] Sam: Yeah, yeah. 

    [00:22:25] Hamish: Help me understand why you did that, or help me understand why you're reacting in this way.

    [00:22:29] Yeah. Because then you're giving them an opportunity to have a conversation. 

    [00:22:32] Matt: It's negotiation at the end 

    [00:22:33] Hamish: of the day, and it's like, you know, you, you levels are down and you're having a conversation. So, 

    [00:22:37] Matt: or walk away. Just like, I know that sometimes when I get shitty, I just, and I can't finish a task in front of my computer.

    [00:22:43] I just go for a walk. 

    [00:22:43] Hamish: Oh, you walk away. Take 

    [00:22:44] Matt: yourself. Just walk away. Just like, and then, because what happens is you sit there and you try to fix it, and you spend three hours where I'll go for a five minute walk, come back, and I've then complete the task in five minutes and I'm like, oh, that was easy.

    [00:22:54] Hamish: Yeah. I'm, I'm now like, if I get a text message or an email or that I don't like, I'm like, cool. [00:23:00] And put that down. 

    [00:23:00] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:23:01] Hamish: And I'm gonna go and take myself away for a 

    [00:23:03] Matt: sec. Respond, don't react. Yeah. Just 

    [00:23:05] Sam: don't, I probably just learn to realize that things aren't that big of a deal. Yes. Like I used to think that every, and I just obsess over every day like a and all about things like frustratingly 

    [00:23:14] Matt: what?

    [00:23:15] Like what? 

    [00:23:16] Sam: Just little details. Like there'd be, I don't know, I'd ask one of the boys to shoot off all the junctions or something and they'd miss like one and I'd be like, mate, you clearly haven't done it. You haven't been like, but I'm like, at the end of the day, it's not that big of a deal. I just say, Hey, you missed one.

    [00:23:29] Can you go fix that? 

    [00:23:30] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:23:31] Sam: That would be a way better approach than blasting 'em and being like, you haven't done your job. What are you doing? 

    [00:23:36] Matt: Yeah. Can I, can I go back now the opposite way? Do you think there's something that we've lost in this? 

    [00:23:41] Hamish: I do think about this a lot 

    [00:23:42] Matt: too and like, like are we just racing, wrapping people in cotton wool.

    [00:23:46] My fucking too precious. Where, and I look at this from a football perspective, I played footy fur. I'm one of my 30, 36. I played since I was like 16, like senior footy pretty much. I think like you [00:24:00] sometimes get three to five seconds to get a message across to someone and it has to be quick and it has to make sense because you do not have time to stop the game.

    [00:24:07] And it's sometimes like you need to be fucking there. At that point. You didn't cover me. Yep. And there's nothing wrong with it. You're not, yes. It can be aggressive. Yes, it can be, it can come across abusive. It's not from a negative space. You are ultimately trying to bridge that gap of a communication that can be, can be lost to be better.

    [00:24:26] And I find sometimes feel that, I'm also feel very fortunate they also got spoken to that way as, as a carpenter to be like, that's not fucking good enough. Yeah. So you go, you know what? I, I, it's not, and I could recognize that and I sometimes I know holding their hand and being like, oh, you didn't do this.

    [00:24:43] Like, do they learn? I don't, I, I don't know. And I'm just, 

    [00:24:45] Sam: no, I don't, I don't think they do. I don't think anyone really learns that way. You learn from like, like those shock sort of impact things I feel. 

    [00:24:53] Hamish: So I've, I've taken this approach and I dunno if this is right or wrong. Like I've, I'm, I've been catching up with my apprentices and, and [00:25:00] carpenters more recently now, and I've actually said to them, there are gonna be times where I am gonna tell you things that you are not gonna like.

    [00:25:06] Mm-hmm. So I'm pre, I'm predating me. Soft blank. Taking the agency to actually tell 'em that something's wrong. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm gonna tell you when you do good things, and as the business owner, I have the right to tell you that you're doing bad things and I'm gonna tell you when you're not doing things correctly.

    [00:25:22] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's reasonably fair. Yeah, 

    [00:25:24] Hamish: absolutely. And when you're, you're inviting them into that, I'm gonna see how this plays out. Right. This is all a new thing for me, but I'm gonna see how it plays out with me. I'm, I'm kind of not asking their permission to have a crack at 'em. I'm just telling them, I'm, I'm letting, letting them know that, hey, there are gonna be times where you are gonna do something that I don't like.

    [00:25:42] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:25:42] Hamish: And I'm going to tell you, 

    [00:25:43] Sam: I think there's no shame in being firm with someone too. Yeah. Like, you do this, or you're out, or, you know, that's a bit extreme. You know what I mean's? 

    [00:25:50] Matt: That's not part of our standard. We don't talk to people like, like, so let's go back. If I told you that skirting was fucking shit, like that needs to be better.

    [00:25:58] And I might put a bit [00:26:00] differently to that, it might be a bit more, Hey, this skirting, I'm not happy with the way it's being done. We're better than that. What would be the difference is someone, if you were yelling and screaming at someone, I said, Sam, that's fucking shit. The way you talk to that person, don't talk to them like that.

    [00:26:12] That's not on What is the difference? Because there's not 

    [00:26:15] Hamish: Well, it's, it's a, it's a hundred percent communication. Like, um, I, I'm not gonna, I'm pretty sure it was Billy Slater, the storm coach. Melin Storm coach says like, catch people doing the right thing. 

    [00:26:28] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:26:29] Hamish: We are so caught up on catching people like doing, like doing the wrong thing.

    [00:26:32] Yeah. So if you're catching people doing the right thing, Hey Sam, you know what that fucking wall there was gun barrel. Straight well done. Well and it was real difficult 

    [00:26:39] Matt: wall. 

    [00:26:39] Hamish: That was really twisted Timber done. That. Well done. And then the next time I go, Hey Sam, just notice you. Nailing off that wall junction.

    [00:26:45] You reckon you can go do that for me? And you'd be like, yeah, no, no dramas. So there's a difference between me going, ignoring that and then just going, fucking hell, Sam. 

    [00:26:53] Sam: Yeah. No, it's very true. You didn't nail off that. Sometimes you just, you, you just see it so dialed in on critiquing things. 

    [00:26:58] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:26:59] Sam: You forget to [00:27:00] compliment.

    [00:27:00] Hamish: And I'm not, and I'm, I'm not perfect. Not perfect. Right. I'm learning to get better at doing this stuff 

    [00:27:05] Matt: in this world. And I know, I, I, I just sometimes wonder if we're just too precious. I ask 

    [00:27:10] Hamish: what you were saying before. There are, there's an element, oh, fucking I'm gonna get canceled saying this. And I don't think, and I don't think times, people just need to get a ear.

    [00:27:20] Matt: Oh fuck, 

    [00:27:20] Hamish: I sprayed to multiple times. 

    [00:27:22] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:27:23] Hamish: But I think you can do it in a way that's both respectful but also direct. But then as long as that's not every single day. Mm. 

    [00:27:29] Matt: Yeah. 'cause well, then it loses its effect. 

    [00:27:31] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:27:31] Matt: So I think, I think that it's a 

    [00:27:32] Hamish: No, we're hijacking your fucking 

    [00:27:33] Matt: No, I know. It's a good round.

    [00:27:35] I, I, I. And Yeah. The, the, the hard thing. Yeah. It's not that I think people should go and abusing people, and I don't, and I don't think you need to swear or yell and raise your voice to get it. You, it's, you said it perfectly. It's a firm, Hey, we're better than this. Mm-hmm. And I'd expect that if I did something similar, you say the same thing to me.

    [00:27:53] Yeah. And there's not, I'm not taking it personally. If anything, I look at it, say, I'm looking out for you to help [00:28:00] you get better to do your job. Because if that keeps happening and I don't tell you and all of a sudden five, six callbacks, you're probably gonna get the ass. 

    [00:28:08] Hamish: Mm. 

    [00:28:08] Matt: So then it's like, it's two gone.

    [00:28:09] That's probably the issue you had last time is where you had multiple people multiple times. You clash. Your clash, you clash. Then you had your big tiff, and then it's done. 

    [00:28:16] Sam: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. 

    [00:28:18] Hamish: Um, Sam, you said that car, you've always known that you wanted to be a carpenter. 

    [00:28:24] Sam: Yes. 

    [00:28:24] Hamish: What is it about carpentry that just drew you in and consumed you?

    [00:28:31] Sam: I think it'd have to be just being able to stand back at the end of the day. And just see, like, you can just see exactly what you've done and just, I, I just reckon that's the coolest thing. 

    [00:28:40] Hamish: It is, 

    [00:28:41] Sam: it's just the coolest thing. Okay. And I feel like, 

    [00:28:43] Matt: and when you straighten a wall, you can't see what you've done, 

    [00:28:45] Sam: but a carpenter can.

    [00:28:46] Yeah. A carpenter can. Yeah. Good 

    [00:28:48] Hamish: answer. 

    [00:28:48] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:28:48] Hamish: So I, I unfortunately don't get the opportunity to put a tour bed on much these days. Yeah. But last Saturday I had one of my team at my place and, um, pm [00:29:00] we, uh, built a pergola and fuck me. I was so happy at the end of the day. Yeah. Just, I, I took it and I keep looking at the photos that I've got Yeah.

    [00:29:08] On my phone going and I keep wandering down and looking at the checkout and the bird's mouth and, oh fuck, I've still got it. Yes. Yeah. That's awesome. Is your 

    [00:29:16] Matt: press holding your hand as you cut with a power saw, mate, 

    [00:29:19] Hamish: I tell you what, I, I, I cut my teeth like building pergolas and decks and stuff like that.

    [00:29:25] I'm a weapon on a power saw. I, I fuck all these people, like getting their squares out and like cutting a straight line. Yeah. 

    [00:29:31] Matt: I was never, are you kidding? I was never taught, I'm a shit carpenter. I'm open, but like I, when I cut with the power, so it was No, you didn't have that. You cut straight. 

    [00:29:38] Hamish: Oh yeah, you cut, you are cut.

    [00:29:39] You just eyeballing it. Boom. You can either looking on this side 

    [00:29:42] Matt: or that side, 

    [00:29:43] Hamish: sort of the line. You're cutting it. 

    [00:29:44] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. You, yeah. Now it's like the square and from when I first time I saw, I was like, good idea. Like actually think, but it's like, I 

    [00:29:50] Sam: think it has a time and a place, but people use it like religiously, like they will not make a cut without it.

    [00:29:55] And it's like, come on, you should, you should have the ability to 

    [00:29:58] Hamish: cut a 

    [00:29:58] Sam: straight line, line the [00:30:00] base up with it and just 

    [00:30:00] Hamish: push. Sure. Exactly. So what were, you're 12, almost 12 years into your carpentry career? 

    [00:30:04] Sam: Yeah, almost. Yeah. Did 

    [00:30:05] Hamish: you do it again? The passion still? 

    [00:30:06] Sam: Would I do it again? I'll do it again and again and again.

    [00:30:09] It's unreal. Yeah. So the 

    [00:30:10] Hamish: passion's still there. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I can see it even just sitting with you now, like the, I dunno, just 

    [00:30:15] Matt: I wish, I wish I love carpentry like that. Like I actually, like, I, I love carpentry. I was shit at it and I knew it and I, I respect it and I feel like it's the most undervalued trade on a project because you are there, start to finish.

    [00:30:27] You work with every trade. You don't have a license, you're potentially like, looked at as like, oh, they're just the carpenter. But yet you have, you are, the carpentry isn't the word though, I feel like. Mm-hmm. Like, 

    [00:30:41] Hamish: yeah, I'm hearing, you know, I mean, I, how to explain and I also wanna ask you too, um, so you always wanna be a carpenter?

    [00:30:47] Sam: Can I, I just wanna comment on that. Yeah. I feel like a carpenter is one of the only trades that has to have some sort of comprehension of what every other trade does. 

    [00:30:53] Hamish: Agree. 

    [00:30:54] Sam: Say a painter doesn't have to really necessarily know what a plumber or a electrician or a [00:31:00] tile or whatever does, but to be a carpenter, like a good, well-rounded carpenter, you kind of have to have some sort of understanding of what all the other trades do to be able to work in with them.

    [00:31:10] Matt: That's our Instagram reel. 

    [00:31:11] Hamish: Hamish, I agree. I, I, I, I, I a hundred percent agree with you 

    [00:31:14] Matt: that that's, um, it's a, yeah. That's 

    [00:31:18] Hamish: so perfect. Do you find in your, like. Audience or in your peer group that people are just saying, oh, I'm just a carpenter, because I've heard that so many times. That's what 

    [00:31:31] Matt: you said. You said that to me.

    [00:31:32] They were your, they 

    [00:31:33] Sam: were your words. I'm just 

    [00:31:34] Hamish: a carpenter. 

    [00:31:34] Sam: That was somewhat of a piss take, but I do, I see what you mean. It's, yeah. People do say they're just carpenters and it's like, even people say, uh, I seen another fella who does the reels and stuff. He made one. He, he said he was, um, he was talking to a bloke and he was like, oh, I'm just a painter.

    [00:31:52] And it's like, well, we're actually all very, very, very important parts of the whole thing. It's like a whole, if you think of a [00:32:00] building, right, it's all these cogs all together. Some bigger, maybe more important than others, but nonetheless, if you remove one of them, it doesn't spin. Like it doesn't, it doesn't function as it should.

    [00:32:11] So we're all very important in one capacity or another. 

    [00:32:15] Hamish: And I and I, and I think that, um, yeah, it's such a good analogy. It's great analogy. It's a really great analogy actually. I'm watching, 

    [00:32:22] Sam: I'm watching both of your minds. 

    [00:32:24] Hamish: S it's fucking brilliant. Like, um, but you think about a, uh, like we're builders, right?

    [00:32:30] So we've got multiple different clients, like different like, and uh, I've got medical professionals, I've got lawyers, I've got, um, business owners, whatever, and I look at them and say a surgeon, for example, they would've worked, uh, gone through medical school and then specialized, and then done whatever your goal would be to become a builder, right?

    [00:32:54] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:32:55] Hamish: I'm assuming, right? Yeah. Never be one day. Yeah. So you are, so you are right now, 12 years in and [00:33:00] still haven't hit the pinnacle of your profession? 

    [00:33:03] Sam: No, I don't even think I've. Grass carpentry to its full realm. 

    [00:33:08] Hamish: So hear me. So hear me out there. There is a point here, because a surgeon is not a surgeon that can go and start cutting people open by themselves until they're like 38 

    [00:33:17] Sam: mm.

    [00:33:17] Hamish: Right? Yeah. So there's 15, 16, I mean, I could be completely wrong here, so someone correct me. Yeah. But it's 10, 12 years. Right. And I think it's the same to become a professional as a builder 

    [00:33:27] Matt: industry. Yeah. 

    [00:33:28] Hamish: Or any industry like it's not just a carpenter. You are on your journey to becoming that professional that every trades person should actually think that they are.

    [00:33:38] Matt: So 'cause it, this is cool because, so you finish your apprenticeship. 

    [00:33:44] Sam: Yep. 

    [00:33:44] Matt: Why don't you just go by yourself like everyone else? 

    [00:33:46] Sam: Why did I not go by myself? I don't really know the answer to that. I think what I keep coming back to is I love the security and I loved where I worked. My boss always looked after me.

    [00:33:57] He still looks after me very well now. So I've [00:34:00] never had. I've never really had a sort of itch or a reason to explore more. 

    [00:34:08] Matt: Do you think? 

    [00:34:08] Hamish: I kind of feel you're unique in that 

    [00:34:10] Matt: way, but I think this, I'm kind of gonna, hopefully you can, he I'll get to where hopefully you put pull up. I shut up now. No, no, no.

    [00:34:16] But like, no, no, no. Because like, I think it's more like, like, 'cause everyone kid just finishes their fourth year and I'm fucking, I've got a business. 

    [00:34:24] Sam: Yes. Yeah. 

    [00:34:25] Matt: And then what do you think the issue is that with that, 

    [00:34:28] Sam: the issue with that is no one knows how to be a carpenter after fourth years. That's not, that's not real.

    [00:34:34] That's not reality. You know, maybe back in the day when there's your real 

    [00:34:39] It's 

    [00:34:39] Matt: true. That is, that is like 

    [00:34:40] Sam: what? Because may, maybe back in the day when a carpenter was a carpenter start to finish, they might only have built 15 homes in the whole apprenticeship if 

    [00:34:50] Matt: 4, 4, 4 homes, four 

    [00:34:51] Sam: homes year. Yeah. But they knew how every single aspect of that home got put together.

    [00:34:56] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:34:57] Sam: Nowadays. Yeah, like even [00:35:00] with our, our boys, like they'll just spend years framing, framing and cladding. A little bit of fix out and a little bit of other stuff. Dex per goal or whatever, thrown in, but not enough to really be competent at it. And in a terms of like, here's a job, here's a pack of timber.

    [00:35:14] Go and pitch this sort of thing. But it's, um, 

    [00:35:18] Hamish: this is where it's, this is where it's tricky because I, I look at my apprentices who have come through over the years and they do everything. So they're like almost, they've just got this big bag of tools and all the tools of different experiences. 

    [00:35:33] Sam: I probably come from a different side of the hill, that exactly perspective, and it's just, it is very nearly cookie cutter.

    [00:35:39] It is very repeat. The size of the houses change and all the rest, but fundamentally it's a wall frame's, a wall frame, like, yeah. 

    [00:35:48] Matt: So, yeah, because what my thinking and if I, they said Matt, fix part of the carpent. Yes. Issue. One of the things I would do is like you finish your carpentry apprenticeship, you [00:36:00] can't start a business until you get a license.

    [00:36:01] And we will not issue a license until you've got three post carpentry sign off. Then you can go for it. 

    [00:36:06] Hamish: And I don't think that a, someone who's just finished their fourth year of carpentry should get an 

    [00:36:10] Matt: apprentice. But the issue that we have, no, but the current issue have, they do all the time. We have 1.2 million homes need to be built, and I bang on about it all the time, and we have a huge labor shortage.

    [00:36:20] You know what sounds fucking sexy? We had 30,000 carpenters finish their apprenticeship this year, or 34,000. No. Fuck all. 

    [00:36:26] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:36:27] Matt: Like, and, and, but that ticks the number. Yeah, because, oh, look how many more carpenters we got. 

    [00:36:31] Sam: Ticks the metric. But fundamentally it doesn't actually Yeah. 

    [00:36:34] Hamish: Solve the problem. 

    [00:36:35] Matt: And all it does is it just means that these people go out and build by themself who know fuck all and build shit houses.

    [00:36:40] And then that cycle just is a, just a snowball. And they teach in the first year who they don't know as much as they probably should at that point. And where I'm getting to is you've been so loyal, which is a super red trait. I don't know anyone that's worked for someone that long, straight out. 

    [00:36:53] Hamish: I wanna ask this, like, have you, and I dunno if your boss is gonna be listening to this, has the grass ever looked greener?

    [00:36:59] Like has it [00:37:00] ever, have you ever wavered, have you ever gone? Um, 

    [00:37:02] Sam: yeah, it definitely has. There's definitely been times where I've thought, oh, maybe I could go and do my own thing, or maybe I could go and look for a job with this person elsewhere. But I've sort of got that loyalty to my boss where if I ever have felt like that, I've just approached him and I'm like, what's up?

    [00:37:18] Like you talk about it, whether it's money or conditions or, yeah, I, I still 

    [00:37:23] Hamish: thinks you, you're incredibly 

    [00:37:24] Sam: what motivates me? Is 

    [00:37:25] Matt: it money or is it other things? 

    [00:37:26] Sam: Um, it used to be money. Now it's my kids. 

    [00:37:28] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:37:29] Sam: Hundred. Have you got a 

    [00:37:29] Hamish: couple of kids? 

    [00:37:30] Sam: Yeah, I got two. Two. Two daughters? Yeah. How 

    [00:37:32] Hamish: old? 

    [00:37:33] Sam: Uh, two, four.

    [00:37:35] Yeah. Wow. 

    [00:37:36] Hamish: Amazing. 

    [00:37:37] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. So you, yeah. So you, the, so for you it's finishing it at a reasonable time is what motivates you more than an extra 

    [00:37:43] Sam: Yes. 50 bucks. Yes, it does now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For a long time there I was very financially driven and frankly, not really going nowhere, but just with interest rates and everything going up.

    [00:37:53] And we were building a couple of homes and stuff at the time and it was just like all going down the drain. And during doing, building a 

    [00:37:59] Hamish: [00:38:00] couple of homes for yourself? 

    [00:38:01] Sam: Yeah, so we built, uh, my wife built one, then I built one, and then we built one together. 

    [00:38:07] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:38:07] Sam: And this was in amongst like getting married, starting a family and everything like that.

    [00:38:12] How'd you 

    [00:38:12] Matt: go working with your wife in a build? 

    [00:38:14] Sam: Nah, fine. We're fine. Yeah, it was all good. 

    [00:38:18] Matt: I joke, we just finished with my wife and I always joke that she was the worst client I ever had. I, I love her deal. 

    [00:38:22] Sam: Oh yeah. She's definitely the worst client of it worked for, and 

    [00:38:24] Matt: she de she definitely wasn't. Yeah.

    [00:38:27] Hamish: I just think, you know, in that scenario everyone just needs to understand where, where their else are. I'm like, I'll take care of the structure. You take care of how it looks? 

    [00:38:33] Matt: Communication. 

    [00:38:34] Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See during building our, um, forever home that we're in now. 

    [00:38:39] Yeah. 

    [00:38:39] Sam: We, um, which is funny 'cause I wouldn't build it anything.

    [00:38:42] Like I built it when I built it, knowing what I know now. 

    [00:38:45] Matt: What do you know now? 

    [00:38:46] Sam: What do I know now? Well, just little things like using better quality wraps. 

    [00:38:50] Matt: Yep. 

    [00:38:51] Sam: Thicker insulation. Caring about, you know, how much draft and stuff comes in and outta buildings and stuff. I didn't know any of that. So is it your forever 

    [00:38:59] Matt: [00:39:00] home now?

    [00:39:01] Sam: Well, it will be. We we're not going to shut, like shut up shop and move anywhere. Yeah. You love it. But yeah. Yeah, I do it. I do love at home. 

    [00:39:08] Hamish: And would you do, what is the, what does the next 10 years look like? Is it you gonna, gonna hang around with your boss and how old's your boss? 

    [00:39:15] Sam: Uh, boss would be five years older than me.

    [00:39:17] He'd be mid 

    [00:39:18] Hamish: thirties. Okay. So he, so he's still in his, he's still in his prime. Yeah. Like he's got 20 years left in him. Like he's not a 60-year-old guy looking at retiring and you taking over like, 

    [00:39:27] Sam: yeah. How many, honestly, I think I'll just keep on chipping. I just love it. I don't really have any, 

    [00:39:32] Hamish: how could that 

    [00:39:33] Sam: passion to, or like any other thing that'll go any other direction, like the social media thing's.

    [00:39:39] Cool. And that's presented itself a phenomenal amount of opportunities, but 

    [00:39:42] Hamish: also, and you 

    [00:39:43] Matt: probably a side interest, it keeps 

    [00:39:45] Hamish: you, I was just 

    [00:39:45] Sam: gonna 

    [00:39:46] Hamish: say 

    [00:39:46] Sam: you need, but I would never, 

    [00:39:47] Hamish: you need these little extra things to keep you engaged in the thing that you do. 

    [00:39:50] Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I can, I would never, like say quit carpentry and do social media full time.

    [00:39:57] It would completely lose the essence of everything I've made it [00:40:00] to be. 

    [00:40:00] Matt: Yeah. Have you been able to profit off the social media yet? 

    [00:40:02] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

    [00:40:05] Hamish: And profit. You make some money. Yeah. 

    [00:40:06] Matt: Yeah. But, but that, but I think that's, 

    [00:40:08] Sam: I don't think you realize how much money there is, isn't it?

    [00:40:11] It's incredible. 

    [00:40:12] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. 

    [00:40:12] Matt: I think that allows you to. Be happy. 

    [00:40:15] Sam: It does. Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:40:16] Matt: I, that's what it goes back to. I think that we see so many and, and like, well, uh, and I got a strong opinion on this, and I spoke about this before on the first podcast, that like, everyone sees Instagram, this beautiful world.

    [00:40:26] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:40:26] Matt: And I've gotta go be the builder and I've gotta be, I've just, I've gotta go take on the, the $10 million project. I know Joel from Heidi builds spell out. 

    [00:40:34] Sam: I was just thinking 

    [00:40:35] Matt: about that one up. Like the most architectural builds that he did made the least amount of money. And you go, he, he's a really simple recipe of just most carpenter, most builders would love to be back just being a carpenter.

    [00:40:47] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:40:48] Matt: Where Sam's sitting here right now, he is the carpenter. He's the carpenter. Do you know, I thought worked out another method of earning some extra dollars so he doesn't have to go put that extra stress and. As [00:41:00] happy as I've seen anyone come into this podcast studio. 

    [00:41:02] Hamish: Yeah. You're happy. You seem happy.

    [00:41:04] Sam: Yeah. I love that. I love that you can say that 

    [00:41:06] Hamish: it's, yeah. You say like, you feel happy, you don't feel jaded, or 

    [00:41:09] Matt: there's nothing like, oh, like, yeah, like literally is happy is the word. And I 

    [00:41:12] Hamish: just, I said to my, I said to one of my guys on Saturday when we're working together and I have my machine helping us put all these big posts and stuff up.

    [00:41:19] So it was just a lot of fun. Yeah. And I said to Joe, I'm like, fuck, I could just do this. 

    [00:41:25] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:41:25] Hamish: I could just put the tool belt back on again. Yeah. And just build pergolas. Like I was, I was like a second away just before COVID to pivoting to just resco areas. Why 

    [00:41:33] Matt: don't you, I know, I know, but like, I know you 

    [00:41:35] Hamish: won't.

    [00:41:35] Do you know what I, so I feel like personally I'm on a really good path now. Like, I think Sanctum homes, I think I've got a really great business. We're, we're, we're putting really good products out there. I like, I love dealing with clients. The stuff with SBA. So I dunno if you've heard of Sustainable Bills Alliance.

    [00:41:54] Sam: I've heard of them. I dunno 

    [00:41:55] Hamish: much about it. Yeah. So I'm one of the founding directors there and our whole, I, [00:42:00] our whole ethos is to educate the broader industry. It's not about passive house, it's just about building better. 

    [00:42:05] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:42:05] Matt: Like it's aimed at the type of work you do. Yeah. So you might do a frame and go, no builder, we are gonna do our corners like this.

    [00:42:11] 'cause you can get more insulation. 

    [00:42:12] Hamish: More insulation. Yeah. It's just, it's, that doesn't change anything. You do. It's the little, it's a little 1% as that we trying to change. Um, 

    [00:42:19] Sam: and you know what really bothers me with building is that they won't let the carpenter wrap the houses. It's always like a, a third party like subcontract that comes in and we'll, we'll do the frame and they'll make us put the windows in it at um, frame stage.

    [00:42:35] And someone else will come and wrap it and they never wrap it correctly. Why 

    [00:42:38] Matt: can't you say, we'll do that work as well as part of the package that we 

    [00:42:41] Sam: offer? It's literally just not an option. 

    [00:42:42] Matt: Like, you can't go to them and say, no, we'll, 

    [00:42:44] Hamish: we'll do it. Oh, so as in, as in, uh, volume builders have their Yeah.

    [00:42:47] Yeah. Okay. 

    [00:42:48] Sam: They'll have people that just come and just wrap their houses. 

    [00:42:50] Hamish: Do you know what I'm gonna, I, I, I dunno. I hope I'm not proven wrong here, but I reckon that'll change soon. I reckon there'll be, uh, uh, [00:43:00] much stringent, uh, installation requirements around your building wraps. 

    [00:43:06] Sam: I feel like there needs to be a wrap.

    [00:43:07] Inspection 

    [00:43:08] Matt: should 

    [00:43:09] Sam: be a lot more 

    [00:43:09] Hamish: inspection. 

    [00:43:10] Sam: I feel like that needs to be a thing. Like it's, it's the fundamental barrier that separates the outside from the inside. 

    [00:43:15] Hamish: How many, how many times have you gone past a building where 

    [00:43:18] Sam: flapping around 

    [00:43:19] Hamish: and the brickies putting it on? Yeah. As they, as they go up and it's flapping around, I'm like, what?

    [00:43:25] But at the same time, it is a multimillion dollar architecturally designed fucking building. 

    [00:43:29] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:43:30] Hamish: And the No using fall paper. No, no disrespect to brickies. Right. But you guys aren't trained to put that stuff on. 

    [00:43:35] Sam: Yes. Yeah. 

    [00:43:36] Hamish: Like you should rock up and it's wrapped, ready to go, and then you do the, you should be able to 

    [00:43:41] Sam: squirt anywhere with the hose and it's happy days.

    [00:43:43] Hamish: Yeah. And you can do that without, oh, I was about to say, without using pro climber products, maybe, uh, pro climber only. Pro climber. Maybe. Maybe, maybe. But a good building round X designer, X designer. Yeah. Yeah. 

    [00:43:54] Matt: Pro climber.com. 

    [00:43:55] Hamish: In, in a perfect world, everybody is using pro climber. So, 

    [00:43:58] Matt: um, I I just, [00:44:00] it's a change of, yeah, it's a change of philosophy and it's an adaption.

    [00:44:05] I, I do think with, it's probably the low hanging fruit of, of that sector improving, and they'll see that just probably via social media means be like, oh, we improve. That information's there. Carpenters wanna do it. Why not? 

    [00:44:19] Hamish: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it needs to come for a whole bunch of different names. I don't, it should, 

    [00:44:21] Matt: maybe I don't be except, and maybe this is me being naive in my own bubble, but like I feel like that would be a complete waste of my client's time for mine.

    [00:44:29] A project like ours. I get it. But we're the exception. So you take it on a, a whole industry wide and we might be the 0.0001%. But again, you fix this the other side of the buildings. Yeah, I 

    [00:44:40] Hamish: So do you reckon you'll go for your builder's license? 

    [00:44:43] Sam: I don't know anymore. I dunno. I think I'd just be happy just 

    [00:44:47] Matt: once 

    [00:44:48] You 

    [00:44:48] Sam: do carpentry 

    [00:44:48] Matt: license then, and just, I'm a, I'm a licensed carpenter.

    [00:44:51] Set the example. 

    [00:44:52] Sam: Is that useless? I've heard that If you get a unlimited or unlimited, like you basically do the same thing, you might as well get unlimited. 

    [00:44:57] So 

    [00:44:57] Matt: I'll challenge you on this. What separates you from [00:45:00] the carpenter that just finished their apprenticeship? 

    [00:45:02] Sam: No, absolutely nothing 

    [00:45:04] Matt: on 

    [00:45:04] Sam: paper. No nothing.

    [00:45:05] Matt: So why don't you and I, and I say this to my team, it's like, just go get your li If you don't wanna use it, go get your license. Like the fact that you go, Hey, I actually did more. I became a licensed carpenter. I'm not using it. I don't care, but I'm licensed. 

    [00:45:17] Hamish: I 

    [00:45:17] Matt: can do 

    [00:45:17] Hamish: that. You know, just checking. Like, I, I, if, if I hadn't have sat here for the last 40 minutes chatting with Sam, I think I'd be on the same mindset as you.

    [00:45:25] But you just seem so happy doing what you're doing. 

    [00:45:27] Sam: I'm just happy what I'm doing. It's like, if it's not broken, don't fix it. 

    [00:45:30] Hamish: You don't. I think that's okay though. Like, I totally think that's okay. Like I hear what you are saying, but I think this is also okay. 

    [00:45:37] Matt: Yeah. But I, what I'm probably getting at is like, and, and maybe it's as an advocate, I'm talking from this as for him as an advocate of being a carpenter and loving is like, I love carpentry.

    [00:45:49] I wanna show that like, carpentry should be championed. I got my license. We should have carpenters being licensed. Like electricians, like plumbers. Mm. So they're respected. 

    [00:45:57] Hamish: I mean, you'd be a great poster boy for that [00:46:00] ad. Like, I guarantee a hundred percent you'd 

    [00:46:01] Matt: be a, a plumber. Oh, they're licensed The electrician.

    [00:46:04] Oh, they're license. Like that's cool and that's great. But carpenter, I. I constantly say, you go down to Bunnings, get a nail bag and a now gun and boom boom. A carpenter, you don't even need a cert three. So you don't 

    [00:46:17] Sam: actually ever need that. 

    [00:46:18] Matt: It's ridiculous. So like at the end of 

    [00:46:19] Hamish: that's full disclosure, I am not a like qualified carpenter.

    [00:46:23] Sam: Yeah, but you're a builder. You're okay. 

    [00:46:24] Matt: So, but what I'm saying is I can, I can 

    [00:46:25] Hamish: slap timber together. 

    [00:46:26] Matt: So like, let's, let's, let's say this, if they said carpenters had to be licensed, would you Before that? 

    [00:46:31] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:46:31] Matt: So a 

    [00:46:32] Sam: hundred percent. 

    [00:46:32] Matt: Why don't you be proactive and go get it and be like, I think we should do it.

    [00:46:35] Sam: I see your point. I see your point. 

    [00:46:36] Matt: Like, you like be the advocate, like be the person goes. Yeah. 

    [00:46:39] Hamish: You could be a great advocate. 

    [00:46:40] Matt: Like you go, you know what, I, I think you said before, don't be reactive. 

    [00:46:45] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:46:45] Matt: Be proactive. I'll put the pressure back on you and hopefully when I sit it here feeling 

    [00:46:49] Sam: hate. 

    [00:46:49] Matt: Yeah.

    [00:46:50] When I sit here for you and because it's, it's not, it. I feel 

    [00:46:53] Sam: like I actually, I say it comes from a good place, so you just want the best. 

    [00:46:56] Hamish: I hear, I hear, I hear it too. But I also think the flip side of it [00:47:00] is, yeah. I just came back to, to just back 

    [00:47:03] Matt: to have, 

    [00:47:04] Sam: I didn't hate it. No. Okay. I was just very. 

    [00:47:07] Matt: I was kind of hoping you 

    [00:47:07] Sam: said no because mediocre, I think.

    [00:47:09] Yeah. Yeah. I was hoping 

    [00:47:10] Matt: you said no. So then you like, I 

    [00:47:11] love 

    [00:47:11] Sam: the social side of school. 

    [00:47:12] Matt: Yeah. 

    [00:47:12] Sam: Okay. Yeah. So I think that helped a lot. But 

    [00:47:13] Matt: yeah, because like imagine like you now studying your standards and actually grabbing and learning 'em, you'd be like, fuck, I love this. Like, I'm actually studying something.

    [00:47:21] I'm loving. Yeah. 'cause 

    [00:47:22] Hamish: you're ready, you're ready to learn though. 

    [00:47:23] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:47:24] Matt: And that's, that's where it's, it's just this generation, 

    [00:47:26] Sam: you'll only ever learn what you actually want to know. Yeah. So it's, yeah. 

    [00:47:29] Matt: You are super passionate and of the carpentry aspect. And one of your pet hates is these kids going, go do my course.

    [00:47:37] You can earn a living carpentry's gonna do nothing. Yeah. Do you wanna talk to me about what is happening there? Why you hate it? Just, just go for it kind of thing. Like it's your platform to talk about cool. What you don't like. 

    [00:47:48] Sam: So what I see is, um, I see these people, they come online and they're doing their own thing, which is fine.

    [00:47:56] It's, you know, it is actually a, a legitimate way to [00:48:00] make income. But where I have the problem with it is that they're attacking essentially vulnerable people, which is. The low income owners of the apprentices and they're coming after them and basically saying, you, you can earn this, you can earn this, you can earn this.

    [00:48:15] And it's like, well, is that really worth like throwing away a skill such as an apprenticeship and what these guys are offering is not really a skill. And in the days of AI approaching, well it's here now, but it's only gonna get more like what they're trying to get 'em to do is like easily replaceable or stuff like that.

    [00:48:36] Hamish: What, what, what are they, what specifically are they selling? 

    [00:48:38] Sam: So it's things like, they call it like appointment setting. So basically if you've got not no time on your hand and the phone won't stop ringing, they'll take over that for you and they'll take a cut of anything that they close. 

    [00:48:49] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:48:50] Okay. 

    [00:48:50] Sam: That is one aspect of it.

    [00:48:51] Another one is they call it high ticket sales. And basically it might be like, I think a common one, they sell this water filter. 

    [00:48:56] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:48:57] Sam: And it might be priced at, don't quote me on [00:49:00] this, I'm pulling numbers outta me ass. It might be like $10,000 for it, but if you sell one, you get a $3,000 commission. Off that and all that stuff is true, and that's all, you know, valid ways to make income.

    [00:49:11] But what they don't tell you is every time you sign up to do this, they get a cut as a sign on bonus. And that's, that's actually 

    [00:49:18] Hamish: pyramid scheme. Yeah, 

    [00:49:19] Sam: yeah, 

    [00:49:19] Hamish: yeah. 

    [00:49:19] Sam: It's, it's the old, it's essentially Tupperware, which you, I mean, people argue the pyramid scheme's no different to having just any sort of structure within a company.

    [00:49:27] Matt: Yeah, 

    [00:49:28] Sam: fair enough. Yeah. But where, yeah. So what I see happening is they're basically picking on these vulnerable people to sign 'em up. And that's kind of all they really are interested in. And then once they've got 'em signed up, if they're not making money, they just, they just keep hitting 'em with the, well, you're not applying yourself enough.

    [00:49:45] You're not trying hard enough, you're not pushing it hard enough, which is true to a capacity, but it's like all you're really interested in is getting these kids. To sign up. 

    [00:49:54] Hamish: Yeah. Vulnerable 

    [00:49:55] Sam: kids. And then what? And then whatever they do after that is just like, 

    [00:49:58] Matt: they, they make money if they sell [00:50:00] 10 items or they get their cut, and then if they then sign someone up, will they then get the cut of that person and the next 

    [00:50:05] Sam: person?

    [00:50:05] I don't know the exact numbers. 

    [00:50:06] Hamish: Are you old enough to know about Amway? It's very similar to what, how Amway used to be. Yeah. 

    [00:50:12] Matt: Are you? 

    [00:50:13] Hamish: Yeah. Anyway. Very, very, she's showing very, very, I am showing my 

    [00:50:16] Sam: age. Yeah. That's, that's the main problem I have with it, is targeting apprentices. 

    [00:50:21] Matt: And they've 

    [00:50:21] Sam: stolen your 

    [00:50:22] Matt: content to make it look.

    [00:50:23] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:50:24] Matt: So you, 

    [00:50:24] Sam: I I was just sort of, that's the only reason why I reacted to that video. I was like, just gonna let 'em go. You know? Don't entertain it. Don't give 'em any, so, 

    [00:50:33] Matt: do you wanna talk, what actually happened with this? Like, they stole your content 

    [00:50:36] Sam: to Oh, it wasn't really like a steal. They just used a part of my content as like the hook for the start of their video.

    [00:50:40] It was like a video I did a little while ago, just laying some sheet flooring down and then this bloke comes on and he is like, yeah, fuck that. I'd rather jump off this balcony or something. And then he goes on the, do like his pitch for signing up for his course or whatever. 

    [00:50:54] Hamish: Oh, I've 

    [00:50:54] Sam: seen that. So that was his original video.

    [00:50:56] I just, 

    [00:50:56] Hamish: I know the video, I've just kind of scrolled past that. Oh, what 

    [00:50:59] Sam: a jam. [00:51:00] Yeah. Okay. That was his original video and he, he does it with other things, but they're usually like him, when he was a tradie it was like B roll of him. Yeah. Doing something as a tradie. Yeah. But he did that and it just, it obviously attacked me 'cause I'm like, no, he's fucking having a go at me.

    [00:51:15] Yeah, 

    [00:51:16] Matt: yeah, yeah. Well mean he's made 

    [00:51:17] Sam: it personal 

    [00:51:17] Hamish: and someone that's passionate about 

    [00:51:18] Matt: what he 

    [00:51:19] Hamish: does. Like that's, 

    [00:51:19] Sam: yeah. So that, that's why I reacted like that. 

    [00:51:22] Matt: You know what, these were 

    [00:51:23] Sam: happy. He's probably not, I had a phenomenal amount of support from it. I would've got like hundreds of dms basically saying, good on you for calling him out.

    [00:51:30] 'cause no one's calling them out. 

    [00:51:32] Hamish: I, my opinion is that there is not a better time in my life, time in any way that I think to, to pursue a career in, in the trade. 

    [00:51:42] Sam: Mm. 

    [00:51:43] Hamish: Like, absolutely. Like if you think about, um, AI is coming can't, they can't, 

    [00:51:47] Matt: can't fix a burst pipe. 

    [00:51:49] Hamish: AI is coming. Uh, and what 

    [00:51:51] Sam: does ai AI do a a hundred mil trick five times in a day?

    [00:51:56] Hamish: Well, you could probably guarantee that AI wouldn't do, I mean, I think [00:52:00] Joel did a really great, um, uh, story this morning. I, I said, I bet your AI can't measure something that completely about, I say that and I'm like, that's me. I'll literally measure something. And then I used to write it on my, um, on my back of the back, the, on the, the back of my tape machine.

    [00:52:15] Yeah. Same. Because I'm just like, 'cause I'll forget that by the time I get there off there's ladder and go and cut it. I'm like, fuck, what is that again? 

    [00:52:21] Matt: I remember when I was showing that for the first time, I was like, that is genius. 

    [00:52:24] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:52:24] Sam: Oh, back 

    [00:52:25] Hamish: in the thing. Yeah. And then you can just rub 

    [00:52:26] Matt: it off and just write 

    [00:52:27] Hamish: again.

    [00:52:27] Yeah. Love 

    [00:52:27] Matt: it. And analogy, carpenter has 40 different types of pencils in their now bag. 

    [00:52:32] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:52:32] Matt: And crayons and Texas. 

    [00:52:35] Hamish: I am old school builder's. Pencil 

    [00:52:37] Sam: builder's. Pencil. What are you 

    [00:52:37] Matt: carrying your nail back? Here you go. 

    [00:52:39] Sam: I do the, um, the tracer mechanical one. I really do like that one. 

    [00:52:43] Matt: Which one's that? 

    [00:52:43] Hamish: Oh yeah.

    [00:52:43] The, 

    [00:52:44] Sam: it's the, it's like an aluminum body. Yeah. It's got like a nice weight to it. Okay. It's my favorite by far. What 

    [00:52:49] Hamish: else? What's your favorite hammer? 

    [00:52:51] Sam: Well, I've actually, this is a little bit controversial. I bought a kinetics, kinetics, customs one. I'm not entirely happy with it. It cost me a [00:53:00] fortune, just a hammer.

    [00:53:01] Uh, 400 bucks or something. Four or 500 bucks. 

    [00:53:04] Matt: I don't, I've, I dunno what that is really, 

    [00:53:06] Sam: to be fair. I should have just got a normal east wing. Yeah. That cost a hundred bucks. That's, that's what I had. Like, they all swing the same. Yeah. It's you. The only reason why I got it is 'cause I wanted a nice looking hammer.

    [00:53:16] Hamish: You're not, you're not, you're not on the, the Martine sort of, uh, 

    [00:53:18] Sam: Martine. No. Martin. 

    [00:53:19] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:53:20] Matt: What else are you currently carrying your tool belt? Or what's the biggest thing on Tool belt you think is the most underrated thing that every apprentice think This is not a good, mindful moment. Right. Okay. Okay.

    [00:53:27] We're gonna jump in that moment. Mindful moment sponsored by MEGT, Australia's leading apprenticeship expert. Um, I've got two today. We're gonna go with two mindful moments from Sam. What is the number one thing in your tool belt that every apprenticeship apprentice should carry as a carpenter that they don't think is like a valuable tool to carry?

    [00:53:44] Or what do you think? 

    [00:53:46] Sam: Mm, definitely a cat's claw. You, you, you're gonna fuck a fair, a fair bit of shit up and you need to know how to pull it apart. Yeah. 

    [00:53:52] Hamish: Yeah. So 

    [00:53:53] Sam: it's just, that's just the nature of it. I 

    [00:53:54] Hamish: know Cat claw is a D nailer. 

    [00:53:56] Sam: Yes. Yeah. 

    [00:53:57] Matt: Okay. 

    [00:53:57] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:53:58] Matt: Um, 

    [00:53:58] Sam: straight. Ask me, ask me straight mate. Do a [00:54:00] really 

    [00:54:00] Hamish: good one by the way.

    [00:54:01] Ask me. Ask me what I, what I think they should be. 

    [00:54:03] Matt: Hey. 

    [00:54:03] Hamish: Hi 

    [00:54:03] Matt: Hamish. What do you think you should carry in your 

    [00:54:06] Hamish: A rule? A rule? I see so many of the apprentices not have, not with, with a flipout rule. 

    [00:54:11] Sam: That's a very good one. Which 

    [00:54:12] Matt: one? The ones that Proclaimer. Have 

    [00:54:13] Hamish: i two meter lines far? No, I'm 

    [00:54:16] Matt: talking a meter.

    [00:54:17] That's it. But 

    [00:54:17] Sam: just a meter Luff. 

    [00:54:19] Matt: I love the two meter 

    [00:54:19] Hamish: ones. Yep. Nah, nah, nah, nah. A rule. Yeah. Carry a rule. 

    [00:54:22] Sam: Are they the ones that fold out like sideways? Yeah, I hate them. 

    [00:54:25] Hamish: I don't like them all. I don't actually dunno how to fucking use them. I've got, I've got whole box at home and this is not anything against Proclaim.

    [00:54:31] Right. I just like 

    [00:54:31] Matt: playing with the Fuji. It's got nothing. 

    [00:54:32] Hamish: I have about 20 of them at home, but I don't, I don't like those rulers. I just like really simple meat long ones. 

    [00:54:38] Sam: Yep. Yep. 

    [00:54:39] Matt: I don't own a nail bag. Can tell you RM Williams are great shit. Um, uh, other question probably that was more, uh, in spur of the moment mind.

    [00:54:53] I want you to give me three pieces of advice for any carpenter that's just of starting [00:55:00] their apprenticeship. What are you gonna tell them? 

    [00:55:03] Sam: Um, definitely would be, there's just like some basic principles that you have to follow. We'll probably call this just one, but just rocking up on time, being present and no pissy, winding.

    [00:55:18] Like so many kids that we have come through will. Like, you'll ask 'em to move a pack of timber and yes, it's a fair task, but like they'll kind of have the audacity to actually like moan about it. What's 

    [00:55:30] Matt: pissy winch? Do you want to explain more about that? 

    [00:55:31] Sam: Like, they'll c consciously be like, um, or like it's very evident that they're frustrated that you've asked them to do that and they, they don't believe that that's something they should be doing.

    [00:55:41] It's like, well, we're currently standing roof trusses. It's your first week, but would you like to come up here or Well, 

    [00:55:47] Hamish: no, you are, you are 

    [00:55:48] Sam: not 

    [00:55:48] Hamish: coming up here. You are 

    [00:55:49] Sam: moving 

    [00:55:49] Hamish: that pack of timber. 

    [00:55:50] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Like, 

    [00:55:51] Hamish: and I reckons 

    [00:55:52] Sam: things like that. 

    [00:55:52] Hamish: That's a really great point actually. 'cause if you 'cause every apprentice that can come on, you are gonna sweep and you are gonna move shit and you're gonna clean up.

    [00:55:59] Sam: Yeah. [00:56:00] Yeah. 

    [00:56:00] Hamish: Like, and you do that. 

    [00:56:01] Sam: Maybe that's the thing. Be be prepared to do the shit for a fair while it's, and and it's not as simple as you, you do like your trial and then you full blazing nail gun saws. Like, you'll be doing it for a bit until, oh, here's actually a good one. So how you do, how you do something is how you do everything right.

    [00:56:20] If I get you to sweep out a room and it takes you forever to do it, I come in and there's still shit everywhere. How am I meant to trust you to do 

    [00:56:27] Hamish: exactly 

    [00:56:28] Sam: the next thing? Yep. You know? 

    [00:56:30] Hamish: Yep. I was, 

    [00:56:31] Sam: if you can't even get that right, but that's, that's sort of my fundamentals. One thing that I actually do with apprentices that start, and this is nearly a bit of a test to see whether we're gonna employ 'em or not.

    [00:56:42] All knock them in 

    [00:56:43] Hamish: their toilet 

    [00:56:43] Matt: and 

    [00:56:44] Sam: knock them in. You can't do that. You can't do that anymore. 

    [00:56:46] Hamish: Great answer. He learned that the first time he did it. 

    [00:56:49] Sam: Yes. No, but I get 'em to cut out the bottom plate of the house with a hand saw and not a reciproc. 

    [00:56:55] Hamish: Yeah. Okay. Yep. 

    [00:56:56] Sam: Just see how they go, see if they whinge about it, see if they're capable of [00:57:00] doing it, see if they'll.

    [00:57:01] I have people come in and they can't cut for shit, but they'll just head down, ass up. They won't whinge about it. They'll just figure it out until they get it done. I'm like, that's a good kid. 

    [00:57:09] Hamish: You know, one just on the hand saw thing. Um, the best bit of advice that I got taught when I was first on the tools is when you are using a hand saw hold it, your, your, your index finger out.

    [00:57:20] Yeah. Can still grip it. Yeah. You 

    [00:57:20] Sam: still grip it. Yeah. 

    [00:57:21] Hamish: Because it guides it so much better. Yeah. Because if you just hold it like that. 

    [00:57:24] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:57:24] Hamish: Holding it like that makes sense. Holding it like that is like one, I still hold one like that. Me too, me too. And, and just big myself. Cutting bird, bird mouths out over the weekend.

    [00:57:34] Here's 

    [00:57:34] Sam: a gun spot 

    [00:57:35] Hamish: on. But that's 

    [00:57:36] Matt: like, it's, 

    [00:57:36] Hamish: do you know what a bird's mouth is? Man? You ever done one before? Yeah. 

    [00:57:38] Matt: Like the, the, the tweet tweets they eat with. 

    [00:57:40] Sam: Is that on my 

    [00:57:42] Matt: But no, but, but the, I think you make a really good point. I actually like the hand saw one because it, because I disagree with the large scale construction hazing.

    [00:57:53] Whilst I've laughed at, at the past, I would still probably laugh at some of the ones that happen. Like, I think you can, I think there is a place where it, if it's. [00:58:00] Lot harmful. Like that is a form of hazing on a construction site. That is a mental challenge. Are you up for it? But it has a, a very good reason behind doing it.

    [00:58:13] Mm, I would say so that, I would call that it's still a form of construction, hazing. 'cause you could just give 'em the reciproc saw. 

    [00:58:18] Sam: Yeah. Yeah, I could. And they'll never see, 

    [00:58:20] Hamish: I don't 

    [00:58:21] Sam: think 

    [00:58:21] Hamish: that's hazing. That 

    [00:58:21] Matt: isn't that I don't 

    [00:58:23] Hamish: No, that's, that's, that is like, you can, here's your pathway to becoming a carpenter.

    [00:58:29] And it starts 

    [00:58:29] Sam: with, I also think giving people a handsaw makes 'em appreciate. Having 

    [00:58:33] Hamish: Totally, 

    [00:58:34] Sam: even though it's a bit h hypocritical. Right. Because I would never cut out a bottom plate with a hand saw these days. 

    [00:58:39] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [00:58:39] Sam: And never really had to when I was an apprentice. But it's like, you don't like people, if you never gave them the hand saw, they would burn through a sip row blade, like on every sixth door plate, just smashing the concrete.

    [00:58:50] Like they wouldn't care. 

    [00:58:50] Hamish: Do you know what else they learned to skew your bottom? Skew your, um, skew your nails the right way. 

    [00:58:57] Sam: Yeah. 

    [00:58:57] Hamish: Because if you've got, if you've got skews going the [00:59:00] wrong way and you start cutting that with a hand saw, you're gonna fuck the hand. So you're never gonna cut it. If you're just cutting that with a recipro, you're just gonna go straight point 

    [00:59:06] Matt: in the hazing then.

    [00:59:06] Yeah. I, I just, I, maybe it's a different way I was looking at and maybe couldn't, 

    [00:59:09] Sam: I'd say the most important thing for anyone probably doing anything, but definitely in a trade is just consistency is key. You're never gonna get better at something you don't do 

    [00:59:18] Matt: or faster. Like you got it. 

    [00:59:20] Sam: Yes. 

    [00:59:21] Matt: And be prepared.

    [00:59:21] I think the other one is like, like if you know, and you've said it before, if you know that you're gonna be, I know putting some triple grips. Tomorrow, just maybe grab the guide and have a quick look over how it's gonna be done. Mm-hmm. 

    [00:59:32] Hamish: Yep. 

    [00:59:33] Matt: Ask some questions 

    [00:59:34] Hamish: and I'll tell you what, there is no more baptism of fire than putting triple grips on, on a minus two degree day and hitting your thumb.

    [00:59:42] That is a rite of passage that every single apprentice absolutely have 

    [00:59:46] Matt: passed out. I literally just like, 

    [00:59:49] Sam: yeah, 

    [00:59:49] Hamish: because it you, and the best ones are when you're just like whack, and then you're looking at your thumb and you're like, it's gonna fucking hurt soon. Yeah. And then like five seconds later, just like, ugh.

    [00:59:59] Sam: I remember this [01:00:00] one winter I was putting up eve sheets and just had like a callous on the top of my thumb, and I hit it that hard. I, I hit it off and I was like, 

    [01:00:09] Matt: there's, 

    [01:00:10] Sam: I had like, I had one of those like meat cleaver heads on my hammer too, so I just absolutely creamed. It was like, 

    [01:00:17] Matt: yeah. And the thing is the pain, 

    [01:00:19] Sam: it was like a minus something degree morning.

    [01:00:20] So it 

    [01:00:21] Matt: was crazy pain's, like a psychological thing. I think. Like, it's like, so the thing is you see it and you go, fuck, that's gonna hurt. Yeah. And then you're like. You're looking. You're looking and then it's just, I, yeah. 

    [01:00:32] Sam: I literally, I remember the job, I remember where it was. I remember who I was working with and I remember it was the first sheet of the day that had the rest of the PUD in, like holding it with the same two fingers.

    [01:00:43] Matt: Sam, uh, how do people follow you? 

    [01:00:47] Sam: How do they follow me? 

    [01:00:48] Matt: Yeah, what are you on? 

    [01:00:48] Sam: Uh, Instagram Samco eight. Can 

    [01:00:51] Hamish: do you wanna spell it for us? 

    [01:00:53] Sam: SA double m, YCO A-I-T-K-E-N. 

    [01:00:56] Matt: And we'll put that in the show notes as well. Yep. Any other platform? 

    [01:00:59] Sam: I'm [01:01:00] on TikTok as well. Sam Aiken two. And on Facebook number one, Facebook as well.

    [01:01:04] That was already taken. Already. A better one. 

    [01:01:07] Hamish: Hey, uh, Sam. Look mate, keep fun. Keep doing what you're doing. I think you are gonna be that sort of shining light now that all these apprentices and these upcoming hubs are gonna look to for actually seeing that there is. I dunno, a pathway in this industry, like, you know, because you can look at all the shiny things that are around here and get distracted and think, I want to go and do this, I want to go and do that.

    [01:01:27] But like, if, if I could bottle this energy and fucking give it to everyone I would. 'cause I think it's amazing what you're doing. 

    [01:01:33] Matt: Yeah. I, I, I think you could and should become an advocate for carpentry and that's why I'm gonna challenge you that this time next year when you're coming here, you've got your license with car three.

    [01:01:42] Hamish: Yeah. 

    [01:01:43] Sam: Big challenge. Alright, thanks. Thanks. Coming buddy. No thank you boys.

Matthew Carland
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