Trade chats - solving the apprenticeship problem
"Nobody wants to be a carpenter anymore." It feels like this rings true in the building industry today. We’re seeing a shift in Australia’s trades landscape, and it’s time to talk about it. We’re exploring why carpentry apprenticeships - once highly sought after - are now struggling to attract and retain talent. Whether you're in the industry or considering a trade career, the insights from this conversation may help you think differently about where this industry is headed.
The Dynamics Have Changed
Remember when scoring a carpentry apprenticeship felt like winning the lottery? It used to be so hard to secure that position. That was just fifteen years ago. Today, builders are struggling to find dedicated apprentices who'll stick around. The trade isn't just competing with university degrees anymore, it's up against changing societal perceptions and economic pressures that position trades as Plan B rather than a first-choice career.
Successful apprentices aren't necessarily the ones who start with the most skills. They're the ones who show up with genuine interest and determination to learn the craft. It’s important to have a passion for the work as much as possible and sometimes that passion comes from who you surround yourself with on the jobsite. If you’re working with passionate people, you’re more likely to be passionate too.
Educating Beyond the Basics
The gap between TAFE education and on-site reality is widening. These days, apprentices often struggle to connect classroom learning with practical applications. When you can't translate theoretical knowledge into real-world solutions, it's not just frustrating - it's holding back the entire industry.
An Overhaul of the Apprenticeship System
Let's talk numbers: apprenticeship completion rates are dropping, and it's not hard to see why. Current pay rates and working conditions aren't matching up with modern expectations or economic pressure. The cost of living is so much higher than it was 15 years ago, and the wage increase for apprentices isn’t matched to inflation. We discussed practical solutions, including potential tax-free formats for apprentices, because if we want to maintain a skilled workforce, something needs to change to keep them in the industry.
For anyone considering a carpentry apprenticeship, here's what matters: find an environment that supports growth. The industry is ready for change, combining traditional craftsmanship with modern approaches to training and specialisation. Success in carpentry isn't just about handling tools anymore - it's about finding the right mentors and opportunities to develop your skills.
LINKS:
Thanks to Hip Vs Hype for having us
Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod
Connect with Hamish:
Instagram: @sanctumhomes
Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/
Connect with Matt:
Instagram: @carlandconstructions
Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
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Matt: [00:00:00] I think it's really important to jump on the topic of apprenticeships There's probably two, no better people to bring into this conversation than Jack from Nook slash Mbh and our good friend Brad, who's returning again to say hi. the first question I have for you guys is back in, we'll call it back in our day, which is what, 10, 15 years ago compared to
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: How do you think they've changed?
Jack: I would say the structure of it hasn't changed massively.
Brad: I think the dynamics changed as well when I started my apprenticeship. You were very lucky to get an apprenticeship and now you are very lucky to find an apprentice.
I'm more making a, a general statement. I'm not really having much trouble getting help now. People are actually approaching me, even though I'm, I'm not looking for anyone. they wanna be involved in what I'm doing. but chatting to other. Other trades that yeah, maybe don't have a big online presence or whatever, they're definitely struggling to find people and find good people.
Matt: So good people is a really good, good question because [00:01:00] like, what do we define as good people? ' I think if they're gonna reach out to you and have a good chat to you to potentially look for a job, that it kind of ticks the box already. For me. It's like, I, I'm, I'm big on passion. I feel like that's, and I said that before, if you can't show passion, like we can teach you anything.
But if you don't, if you're not passionate or wanting to be passionate or wanting to learn, like we can't teach you anything.
Brad: Yeah, definitely. I think there's a big difference between, you know, someone grabbing the bull by the horns and approaching someone for a job as opposed to, you know, a lot of, well, the last apprentice that I had, his mom cut the hair of my next door neighbor. And you know, they were talking one day during a haircut.
Hey, my son's looking for an apprenticeship. Do you know anyone? Yeah, my next door neighbor's a carpenter. Sweet. that's how it worked out. You know, I think you're gonna find very different people in that avenue than what you're gonna find if they're actually seeking out the employment themselves.
Jack: [00:02:00] Was that successful, Brad?
Brad: He is the only one that's ever finished his time with me, so I'd say it was successful.
Jack: Oh, that's a good point. Yeah, because sometimes those things, you, you hear about 'em on the grapevine not shaking out. But I definitely think like passion is important and then through that projection from a company that that sends out what they do and what they're, they're passionate about, obviously that should circle back around and be able to attract, um, that same kind of passion.
I think attitude is a little bit of a step left from that as well. I think to have a good attitude towards, towards life, towards work, towards human beings, um, is also a big thing.
Matt: attitude and passion is so interlinked.
Jack: Interlinked, but, but I think it's a step left. cause you can be passionate about something and perhaps you don't want that to be your day in, day out job. That could be a hobby. You
Brad: And you could be incredibly passionate about things outside of. Work and not be passionate at all about anything work related. 'cause work's just a means to an end for you.
Matt: people say there's a trade shortage at the moment, I kind of don't have an [00:03:00] issue with it because if we're starting to spin out, like there's nothing worse than spitting out. All these new tradies who don't know anything. And I, and I'm a big believer that you don't know anything until you probably have, what, six years experience, four years of apprenticeship plus your two years. I feel like that is a huge issue with the way people are learning. but in 2022, there was an 8.8% decrease in the number of apprentices and trainees at uptalk apprenticeships. Uh, that's a, that's a, that's a big change.
Jack: What's that down to?
Stigma culture. Like that's always been a, a big that I've certainly faced when we were leaving school. you know, it was a lot of white collar push out of school and the, the blue collar jobs were certainly with a bit of a broad brush of, of being a bit of a fallback.
You didn't do well in school. So this is your next best bet.
Matt: it's, it's a hard one because like, I come from a, like my family, my dad was an electrician by trade. There's my brother's a plumber. There's multiple trades through our family, so I. [00:04:00] The natural
Jack: Mm-hmm.
Matt: likely a tradie. Uh, so been very sheltered from that for my whole life. and even
I've got friends who are super successful that are like, their parents are like, uh, tradies run trade businesses.
Um, and I think there's a huge stigma around, the average person thinking that trades are dumb. Like, yeah, they might not be academically smart, but I tell you what, their problem solving street skills is faster
Jack: mm. Incredible.
Matt: you find at any university.
Brad: My parents didn't want me to be a trainee.
not in the slightest,
Matt: Have you asked them, like, how did that turn out for 'em and have like what do they now think?
Brad: Yeah. Now they think it's the best thing ever. I built them a house.
yeah. I've also noticed a, a lot, you know, like I doom scroll TikTok here and there, and there's a lot of young guys, you know, getting on their, you know, whether it's to rote people into their online courses and their. MLM schemes or whatever, you know, but hey, don't be a tradie. [00:05:00] You don't get paid well, you ruin your body.
You know, there's a lot of that stuff out there as well, which I, I think is a huge deterrent for young people. And then when they look at the wage and they go, oh, okay, well, I can do a, a carpentry apprenticeship or, you know, whatever, apprenticeship and get paid, between 20 and 30 bucks an hour.
you know. I work physically hard or you know, I can probably get upwards of 30 bucks an hour driving a forklift in a factory. I think that's a big part of it.
Matt: though. It's very short term thinking. I think that people days want instant gratification and success. think that is a huge issue where they don't want to put the hard yards in to get there. And I know brand just talked about pay. Yeah. The apprentice. Like this is a question I've got for you guys.
Yeah. The apprentice system. You don't get paid the best, like let's not shelter away from that. But how are the, how else do you do it? Because as a business, you can't afford to pay someone as an apprentice, a crazy amount of [00:06:00] money. to learn and make. And the reality is you make some mistakes.
Like we made mistakes with apprentices. That's how we learn. you're not paying a HEC instead at the end. So financially you're probably 150 K in positive before you've like someone that's finished their uni degree and then someone that's finished their apprenticeship. Like you, you've earned money over four years, plus you don't have a 60 to a hundred thousand step.
Brad: Yeah, I totally agree. But it's get, it's getting people to see that that's the, that's the way that it is, you know.
Jack: And it's also short term pain there as well. Um, having that four year gap where you are receiving really low income. Um, and let's, let's be honest, it is really low in comparison to cost of living these days. Um, super challenging, and making things.
Matt: be increased?
Jack: I think it needs serious govern, government intervention and subsidies to actually be serious about rebuilding the workforce.
'cause there is too much risk on, on small businesses taking on apprentices. and, you know, wearing [00:07:00] mistakes and also paying them, you know, a, when I say a, a terrible wage, it's, we're not talking slave labor. but it certainly is a noticeable. coming out of a small business for sure. as builders, we do hold a lot of risk in, in taking on an apprentice in certain ways.
so I think if there is a, a government wants to be serious about it, I think it also, it's, it needs to flow all the way down to small business and be able to prop it up.
Matt: it probably leads me on to where I think there's a huge issue with our apprenticeship and got governments wanting to spit out as many apprentices on three year term because they can say you've got more trades. 'cause there's a skilled shortage. Alright.
anything that you do, if you spit someone out really quick, you're gonna get most likely very poor quality.
Like, it, it, it's
Jack: definitely.
Matt: that the universities and TAFEs are completely incentivized by government just to spit 'em out. The course content that these go, like these kids get taught is so far beyond what is currently happening. Like I sit here and watch what my kids are, or my apprentices are learning and I'm like, this is, this just [00:08:00] has nothing to do with building.
Like there's terms that I'm having to Google and be like, I dunno what that means. I actually can't help you with that question. I have a personal opinion and it's my opinion how I think you could fix this issue is like, I think, and we'll talk carpentry 'cause that's what we, we, our trade is I think a carpentry apprenticeship should be for your apprenticeship. Then you finish, you have two years post that. So it's really a six year apprenticeship. Once you are in that, say, we'll call it the fifth and sixth year, you have to start doing your diploma that is created or some form of carpentry. Extra schooling is created by, say, the VBA, that teaches you to become a builder and a licensed trade.
And at the end of it, you sit a test and then you become licensed. And that means that you can't employ any apprentice until you are physically licensed by in Victoria VBA.
Brad: Yeah, I, I think making it more difficult for people to employ apprentices would certainly change a, a lot of things. 'cause you've got people that. Finish and like, I know a, a real [00:09:00] lot of stories where this has happened. You know, a fourth year apprentice gets qualified, goes out on his own, takes a second year, apprentice from the same business with them, and then they're out doing something together with no experience like that.
Second year is now not learning anything. The qualified who's. Freshly qualified is not really gonna learn, is only gonna learn by making mistakes, you know? And then that chain continues where then you know, that second year becomes qualified, goes out on his own, employs someone as an apprentice, you know what I mean?
And they just get worse and worse and worse.
Jack: Do we think the quality of fully qualified has gone down over the past 10 years?
Matt: This is
Brad: No.
Matt: because I'm, I, yeah, I don't think it has, 'cause the people that are approaching us
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: good
Jack: Unfortunately we got a bit Yeah, we've got a bit of a sheltered, um, we do, yeah. We, we we're all very lucky in, in that kind of sense.
Matt: the quality's good. Like the people I see are [00:10:00] awesome
Jack: Mm-hmm. I agree.
Brad: I think now the ability to become educated about your trade. Without learning directly from your boss is better than it's ever been, and so people that want to be good are going to be good regardless. I think people are now a lot more aware of good workplaces that are out there, and they stay a lot less in bad workplaces, and the good people seek out good places and good people to work for, and they become good trades and the bad trades and the bad people.
Are always gonna be that way because bad bosses will always be bad bosses and bad workers will always be bad workers. And we're just seeing a big shift now where good people find good people, bad people find bad people, and that's it.
Matt: Yeah, and I, and that's, that's a really good point. the thing is, just because you're a good person doesn't mean you're gonna learn correctly.
Brad: if you are keen to learn what you can see now, you know, on social media or [00:11:00] whatever. It's very easy for young kids now to go, Hey, I'm not doing what I see other people on the interwebs doing. Am I being taught right? And they'll question it. Whereas when I did my time, I didn't know anyone that had.
Social media for their business. So how would you have known? I only started to know things when I went to work with other people and I went, oh, I don't do it that way. I was lucky it was the other way around. I knew more than them. Uh, 'cause I got taught well, but taught well until I went to, yeah.
Jack: Definitely
Brad: No, but I, like, I was lucky. I, I lucked out and I did my apprenticeship with someone who was very good at their trade. And put a lot of effort into teaching me. Um, but I know a lot of people that didn't have it the same way.
Jack: So we're saying potentially the idea of social media is, it sounds like this is a big part of this, this flourish of people finding their, you know, [00:12:00] their, their area of work that they want to thrive in essentially, as opposed to, you are yours in the word luck. It's like, is luck now not really involved?
Now that we have social media and we have a really good, you know, vision into what the industry looks like.
Matt: And you can slip into anyone's dms, like you can quickly access like us through a quick message.
Jack: Mm.
Matt: get
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: messages minimum a day from someone asking a question. one of the questions I get asked more than anything, it's like, Hey, I'm an apprentice. I'm a second, third year apprentice. love what you guys are doing.
I want to build better. but I can't convince my boss to build better.
Like, what should I do?
and So for example, like I've got someone that I'm chatting to today that's got the same thing, and he said, but I love where I work. The people are awesome. how do I actually learn what you're doing?
Do I do the passive house course? I was like, no, the passive house course isn't gonna teach you anything anymore. was great when we did it, but now there's so much more information on social media that you can get for free. Like it is so accessible. And then led me to the conversation saying that like, the only [00:13:00] way that you are going to learn is if you leave and go join someone that will teach you and that you get hands-on experience.
You are not gonna learn this purely, uh, onsite where you currently are, unless you take the, the boss takes on that job or you get that job. And most likely it's probably a one-off. Then if you don't then take on that a job or learn the way that we potentially build you just become part of a cycle, and as the cycle goes, it's harder to break.
Brad: Yeah, but it just depends. Like if you don't want to be a builder. You just want to be a carpenter, you know, you don't need to learn a lot of the things that that we do. And you might learn insane carpentry skills off someone who's just focused on purely on carpentry.
Matt: Oh, I disagree because like for example, like let's just take a window sill, for example. If you're a good carpenter, like they should be like just tilt, tilting that seal at five degrees straight off when they frame like bang prep for the next
Brad: Yeah, that's one tiny little thing, but do they need to know, know, everything else about [00:14:00] building, you know, as a carpenter, you need to know enough about other people's trades to do a good job, If you're a carpenter framing for a passive house builder, you know California corners, you know, minimize how many studs you put in slope, the sills,
Matt: Any build, whether you're building a volume back up, build up, why shouldn't you be falling with a, as a good carpenter framer, we, we do California corners to maximize insulation. Like that's how you create change. Be like that's how we're doing it, and that's gonna only benefit you as a builder.
Brad: I'd be fairly confident that there'd be a lot of building surveyors out there that that work in the volume game. That if they walked into a joint that had California corners, they'd be like, what the hell is this? And they probably wouldn't pass it.
Matt: if
Jack: I agree.
Matt: There's nothing in 6 16 84 that says you can't do it. It actually is completely fine.
Brad: Matt, I've had some punch ons with buildings of a SA, like, like some, like some absolute doozies, like real doozies. You see everything from this little bubble that we operate in. [00:15:00] You know, you've got, who is it? Permit approvals plus, you know, that are awesome. Like, I've had all sorts, all sorts.
'cause I did nothing but work in, you know, volume development type of jobs where, you know, everyone was on the take. like a complete different, it's a complete different side of the industry. So the second you try and change anything. It's a debacle and it's easier to just be like, yeah, all right, that's how the surveyor wants it.
I wanna finish the job and get paid. That's how I'm gonna do it. That's the reality of it.
Matt: That's an issue in itself.
Brad: Yeah, but it's, that's what I'm saying. It's not always as simple as like, oh, well you should just do it this way. You know different when you are the builder making these calls. But when you are a subcontractor who's on a price. Probably a crap price coming from like a volume builder, you need to get in and get out and make as minimal amount of return trips as possible.
That makes it very, very hard for you to be in the driver's seat [00:16:00] saying I'm the one that's gonna create change here.
Matt: A fair point, but then I think about the apprentices that are doing like apprentice work in for the volume builder. Like can you even call yourself a carpenter if all you with frame as an apprentice?
Brad: look at the industry in other countries, like American Carpenters, don't, you know, us in New Zealand are, you know, one of the only places where it's like, okay, yeah, carpenter just does everything, including all the things that all the other trades don't want to do.
We're the only ones expected.
Whereas like in America, you just do cladding, you just do frames. You just do, you know, internal trim and the processes that some of those guys have is insane. You know, like their processes and systems destroy anything that we do 'cause they've got the time to work on it and refine it.
Matt: So this is where I'm getting at too, is like for example, a carpentry apprenticeship. I don't, I think that. you are licensed maybe as a carpenter and you work for builder, then you can be [00:17:00] like, you can showcase a portfolio across multiple stages of a project from fixing to cladium to, uh, I know framing to subfloor.
Then you can call yourself a carpenter. But if all you can showcase is framer and you may be the best framer, that's what you are, become a framer. And that's then, as you said, you can refine your skills. You get so good at framing that you are an expert in framing. I reckon that's potentially something that we need to do in our industry and break up carpentry as a term.
Brad: but then why can't you just break up the licenses like it is in plumbing? a licensed roof plumber can't do general plumbing. you can do a job and you can get a plumber to do all the civils, a plumber to do all the hydraulics, and a plumber to do the roof. Three different plumbers, three different licenses, three different certificates.
Carpentry can be the same way.
Matt: I think it should be. you'd have foundations in the subfloor. You'd have a framer, you'd have claddings and like a lockup. You maybe have a internal carpenter and fit off a finished carpenter.
Jack: It would, it would certainly make the education system a lot more streamlined as well. If you just had a framing, carpentry, [00:18:00] apprenticeship, they would be able to hone skills instead of doing one week on hanging doors where we all know that hanging doors is a bit of an art, and can take quite a long time to, to master that art.
Brad: what a carpenter is expected to know and learn in four years is insane compared to, you know, other trades. And it's like, you know, not to be completely disrespectful to plumbers and electricians, but there's a lot more repetition in those jobs. 'cause it's like, okay, we're doing drainage, okay.
Water flows downhill. Or we're, we're, we're,
Jack: more than that. Plumbers out there, you do a lot
Brad: I know that, I know there's a, I know there's a bit more than that, but there's a lot less variety in the scope of what they do, which allows apprentices through that time to really hone in those skills. 'cause they're gonna do it a lot more repetitively.
You know, I, the last couple of apprentices that I. Would've really struggled to learn a [00:19:00] lot in the end because we were doing something different every day, and sometimes it wasn't carpentry, it was builder related. How do you hone those skills when every day, you know, it's like, okay, well now we're doing something different.
Now we're doing something different now we're doing something different. Now we're doing something different.
Matt: And I also think there's something kind of cool and old school about the plumbing apprenticeship that you go to. Yeah, you gotta go to night school and you do your gas license, you do your water license. I think that's like, it's showing the commitment to what you kind of want to do, where everything these days is just a quick online course.
Bang, I've done it, finished off, I
Jack: Mm, well carpentry is certainly curve. Carpentry is one of the most, it's just puzzling how intense and the understanding has to be to actually become a, a, a, quite a well-rounded carpenter.
Matt: literally had this before recently. someone will email me or send an inbox message to my Instagram and be like, Hey, I've done my cert three carpentry training. I'm a carpenter. I charge $70 an hour. Can I get [00:20:00] some work? Hey, have you ever me, have you been on site? No. they're technically a qualified carpenter, which is insane.
Brad: that's a real fault in the, in the system.
Matt: I I also think like you shouldn't be able to call yourself like an a grader, like an electrician. Like, and car carpentry falls into this unless you've Yeah. You've done like, I'm not a carpenter unless I'm licensed,
Brad: we could have that, there's stacks of plumbers out there that aren't licensed plumbers that work for licensed plumbers
Matt: that solves everything because they're learning from licensed people, or most likely they are.
I feel like the apprenticeship system is broken and if we really wanna start, like, it, it, it's a cycle because if we start spitting out better quality trades. That are insured that have the liability against them, quality of work comes up. 'cause they don't want to be sued. So you, you're picking, you, you're picking up from the ground up, which means long term from people's, like house insurance and they, they have a decrease on, on their contents and home insurance because [00:21:00] been built by
Jack: Quality of work's higher.
Matt: should.
Jack: needs to be a different pronged attack as well. We, we can't attack it from just a, a liability point of view. I think they're actually, as we're talking about people getting in and that and that attitude and passion, that also needs to be, backburning as well.
We need to be able to create. Passionate people. Um, and how do we do that? I think social media's been probably the biggest expander of that over the past three years. but there's gotta be more there. There has to be like, uh, you know, America have these in incred used to have these incredible television shows.
Like my old home, I think, was it my old home, Brad? What was it called?
Brad: Yeah. This old house.
Jack: the.
Brad: like Larry Horn and.
Jack: Yeah, yeah. The amount of, um, Americans that, that harp on about that incredible show, and that's where it all started for them. Um, we have the block. Like what a what a what a horrendous place to have to build a passion from.
Matt: let's cut corners. Let's do things as cheaply as possible.
Jack: Oh
Matt: all the
Jack: yeah.
Matt: Let's like
Jack: Let's not go into the [00:22:00] block list,
Matt: No, but it's a, it's an
Jack: but it's
Matt: The problem is
Jack: a, it is, yeah.
Matt: people from doing an apprenticeship
Jack: Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt: that and they go, I
Jack: It's a negative, negative aura. Yeah,
Matt: but the,
Jack: Mm,
Matt: it couldn't be so far from the truth.
Brad: Just tell 'em to watch Grand Designs instead of the block.
Jack: true.
Matt: like I was never one that loved being on the tools. I think it's, it's also hard 'cause I, I see the pressure from young kids these days that come out of a high school that you must know what you gotta be, you gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or a psychologist, who knows. But at the age of 16, you're expected to know what career path you want when you're 50. so sometimes I think that, that, the same issue with us as apprenticeships. Like, just 'cause you're starting a carpentry apprenticeship doesn't mean you have to be a carpenter. It's an entry point into so many different jobs.
And that could be to, to a building design. It could be into building, surveying, inspecting. It could be a project manager, construction manager, like even just sales construction company or who knows? But it is [00:23:00] just a starting point. It's like a university degree. I feel like there's more and not to shit can anyone that does an arts degree, but I think there's more avenues from a, an apprenticeship than an arts degree is gonna give you.
Jack: Potentially, but like that's could be the foundation of building that passion. So you do a carpentry apprenticeship and you are, you know, you're in the residential game or the commercial game, and then from there you see what you're passionate about. Like I know a lot of carpenters that have pivoted over to architecture and vice versa. the amount of architects that are interested in, in putting, um, in putting bags on and, and being on site and actually understanding what they're designing, , it's constant. Yeah. Which is great.
Matt: so that is something which Liam spoke about from hit me hype about when he was studying to be an architect. You had to have onsite experience. And I'd love to know if that's still the case, because would bridge so many gaps.
Jack: I'd be pretty surprised if that's required. It'd be good to chat with an architect about that.
Matt: hours.
Jack: Wow.
Matt: just think about, and he made the example of like, he's detailing and his plans on [00:24:00] how to install render. He's like, there's nothing more valuable than speaking to the renderer themselves because they'll
Jack: Cool.
Matt: and that was like this bigger ha moment. Or I also think for us, like imagine how good it would be if as a, as a carpentry apprenticeship that you could go sit on. Some form of an architect course to learn how to replan to understand what they're thinking. So we're bridging the gap a bit more here too. So there's a mutual respect straight off that when you're an apprentice carpenter you're speaking to an architect student, like you guys are starting to get along from the start.
So there's that mutual, like they're both professionals here.
Brad: you can have all these ideas and say, oh, these are all these things that we can do to improve apprenticeships. And it's sort of the same spin as when we say, oh, we need to improve the building code. We can just do these things without the, you know, the government implementing it, you know, like.
Matt, you've got a good relationship with the architects that you work with. Surely they're coming out on site, which opens the door for your apprentices to have a conversation with the [00:25:00] architect. It opens the door for the architect to have conversations with your trades while they're on site, you know?
And then when that becomes something that people see on social media, they go, well, I want to go and work somewhere that I'm also afforded those same opportunities. And that in itself. Grows things to be better.
Matt: It's also hard now. So if I went to an architect and said, Hey, can you have my first year for 20 hours to learn? Like that means it's 20 hours out of the architect's time to teach them. But imagine if that's like at, uh, universities slash TAFE level, that when the kids, I know they're a first year, but they go do. The plan reading or plan design. Ba. One of the basic courses or subjects you might do at architects, like during their degree, is you sit in on that part, that unit, and you learn the absolute minimum. But then on the same flip side is the architect might come in, they might come in and have to do, yeah, 20 hours of onsite laboring and they must cover something from a slab core, a a [00:26:00] like a subfloor, a frame, just some basic on like backend documentation.
Brad: Yeah, I just think some of it like is so easy to fudge if you do it that way. And then it's really dependent on, on where you end up going. So, you know, like I'm assuming we've all done work experience, you might be the work experience kid that, you know, really gets to, jump in the deep end.
Or you might be the work experience kid that just stands on a broom, for it to make a substantial difference, like you have to be in the right place.
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: and if I was an architect student, the first thing I'd be doing is reaching out, not to an architect studio to learn. I'd go to a buildup, be like, can I do, is there some paperwork? Can I do onsite laboring? I feel like that is so much more important,
Jack: I mean, that's pretty much what placement is essentially as well. Uh, doctors, nurses, they do all that kind of stuff. They can reach out to, they have to apply to certain, , hospitals and all that kind of stuff, and they get to, pick their poison in a.
Matt: I was actually out for dinner with two of my best mates, like him and his [00:27:00] partner, and he's, uh. Starting to be an ophthalmologist and she's just about to finish school and the amount of placement that med students have to do for free is cra. It's practically like two years of full-time work for free.
But not only free, you've gotta pay a hex to, to go work in a hospital to learn. I get it. 'cause you're dealing, you're not just doing home, you're dealing with people's lives. But surely there's something we can take from that model of like, oh, well, they're learning from. Walking around with doctors and surgeons and consultants, like valuable.
Jack: How do we transfer that into our industry? That would be very, very difficult. 'cause already quite a big sticky subject. Industry with apprenticeships.
Matt: maybe it's 40 hours a year. If you can't find 40 hours a year. As a as is someone studying, you've got
Jack: No, totally.
Matt: You're
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: your time ever. one of these, I forget which one it was of you two that made the good point about carpentry apprentice is like, you kind of end up doing anything. Everything, like from an [00:28:00] external wall wraps, putting in some insulation to cleaning the site,
Jack: mentioned the idea of carpenters have to know other trades quite intimately. Um, it's very rare that a plumber or a uh, electrician Tyler has to know carpentry intimately. The good ones do. But I, I very rarely you come across those guys. , And we are very much expected, um, as you know, young carpenters, old carpenters to really understand plumbing, electrical, tiling, waterproofing, I mean, you name it, concreting.
I could just list goes on and on. I.
Matt: Oh, the first concrete sub I ever did was practically, I'd never seen a concrete sub, and all of a sudden I'm digging one out and pouring one and being like, I've got no idea what I'm doing. But you fake it till you make it.
I should not have got my
Jack: Yep.
Matt: to be able to do that. But
Jack: Mm,
Matt: and I've learned from it.
So on the flip side, why I say whilst I say we need to do all this education and it should be part of the apprenticeship, we are all probably very good examples of it also doesn't need to be that way.
Brad: I think it's a bit prohibitive to be like, you have to learn all [00:29:00] these, all these different things. 'cause it's just, it's just too much.
Matt: any apprentice come to you, like, what advice should I take? Like what's the biggest thing I should know about an apprenticeship?
What would you say?
Jack: I think you need to put yourself in an environment where you can thrive. if someone, some you need to find the right person that'll have the time for you. , But I think that's a two way street as well. I mean, it's, it's really, you really have to show the attitude that, um, that you will work really hard for this other person.
I think they will give back.
Brad: what would be the advice that I'd, that I'd give to an apprentice now.
Matt: hoping you'd say this because you've actually said this to me before, an apprenticeship, a four year apprenticeship teaches you nothing other than the skills to think through a situation to maybe get to where you need to get to, but you are not gonna do a four year apprenticeship and walk out and be like. can frame a house, I can start to finish, build it, but you'll have the basic skills to allow you to think through some problems. And it's only from there that your, your first, second, third, fourth year out of the apprenticeship is when you [00:30:00] really start to learn stuff.
Brad: I finished my apprenticeship and we had predominantly frame, so I was like, I'm a gun framer. Away we go. And like I cooked the first frame I did, I messed up the measurements of upstairs, put beams in the wrong place. It was a debacle. And I was like, how, how did I cock this up so bad when I've been such a gun framer for so long?
But I just was a gun worker. I wasn't a con, you know, leader.
Matt: You can't have speed and skill, like speed only comes after a certain of time of repetition or knowing something very, very well.
You've picked up efficiencies in the way that you do something and and I say this to all my apprentices, like, just take your time, slow down, get it right once it's gonna stop. Think through the situation, think about what you're about to do, and then do what you're about to do or talk to someone about it.
Brad: I think speed really comes from how fast do you think? [00:31:00] And then the fact that you don't have to think, so you've. I've done it so many times that you no longer have to think about it. And that's where you get incredibly fast, you know? Whereas yeah, like when you are learning, you've gotta stop, take the time to think, you know?
Jack: Yeah, no,
Brad: it um.
Jack: amount of concentration to make sure that you're not making mistakes. You're thinking about every step methodically, but when you've got that experience, you can just flow through. Everything is smooth, slow is smooth, smooth is fast,
Matt: if you could change one thing about the whole apprentice system, the way it's currently operated, what would you both change?
Jack: Funding.
the pay divide for apprentices I think is still too much and it's not scaled to the current economy.
Matt: So, can
Jack: Um,
Matt: I kick back here now a bit.
Jack: yep. Go for it.
Matt: How, like just, let's say an apprentice is on the average apprentice on probably about 20 an hour, is that about right? Maybe
Jack: 21%. Yeah. Yep.
Matt: So how much funding would you now say that they should get [00:32:00] extra?
Jack: it needs to be a reflection of economics. you can't kill that with a, with a silver bullet. Um.
Matt: I'm, what I'm getting at here is all of a sudden we go, Hey, are we gonna give every apprentice another $10 an hour? Now all that's gonna do is the carpenters are gonna go, well, I'm gonna charge more to bridge that gap more because they've got that. I'm just gonna become more expensive.
Jack: Yeah. But at the same time, it also will improve quality of life for apprentices and also potentially incentivize people to move over from other professional industries into out, um.
Matt: Yeah. No, that, that's a, that's a
Jack: And then that, and then thus creating a little bit more competitive, um, competitive pool, which I think is, IM important.
If we're gonna run in a, in a, in a capitalist economy, I think com competition's really important. So, um,
Matt: just, it's a simple one. It's like if you're doing an apprenticeship, you don't get taxed. There's no tax on an apprenticeship.
Jack: yeah, potentially. Yeah.
Matt: it's something like that that
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: aren't taxed. It's tax
Jack: But that's funding, like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna [00:33:00] sacrifice attacks, that's, that's funding, you know?
Matt: I think though, if you don't finish your apprenticeship, that needs to be a consequence. So you go into it. Like, because there's gotta be something on the other side. Like, because otherwise there's no return on investment from, say,
Jack: yeah,
Matt: they're, they're putting all this money behind it, but, hey, I just want two or three years to, to cash up before I go on a Europe trip, and then I'm gonna go do what I want to
Jack: yeah.
Matt: job.
Jack: have, but people have personal, you know, stories and, but sometimes they just can't do that.
Matt: No,
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: thing is like, we, like there has to be a return, return on investment because also so many apprentices aren't finishing their time.
Jack: what do you pin that down to?
Brad: Yeah, they're prob probably a lot of them are leaving 'cause it's money related, you know, they just can't afford to stay being an apprentice. you know, when you come outta school and you are young, you know, you don't really know what you want to do.
You get a little bit of the ways through. Your friends have taken on other paths, you know, and especially when you're young, people sell you everything. Like [00:34:00] it's the best thing ever. Yeah. I work at, wherever else is amazing, you know, you should do it and it, you know, maybe you think then, oh, maybe I will go do.
Something else. I think it's a lot to ask of, and I didn't do it. I had a few different jobs before I became a a carpenter. It's a fair bit to ask of someone who's that young to be, committed to, to sticking it out for ages. And then when you're a little bit older, you're probably, especially now, it's harder to go, oh, well I'm going to cop a pay cut and go, go be a tradie.
Jack: ago.
Matt: rate for apprentices who commenced their apprenticeship that actually finished it, have a guess. I have a
Brad: 30%.
Matt: the way. What do you guys
Brad: What do you mean? What do you mean? A hundred percent hit rate?
Matt: have finished and completed their apprenticeship that have worked for me.
Brad: I've had, I've had 30 apprentices and had one finish. Well with me, finish with me.
Jack: Yeah. I
Brad: And then I've had a co I've had a couple that have finished. [00:35:00] Yeah, I've had a couple finish. Um, not with me.
Matt: So
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: a problem as of 2023. The completion rate for apprentice and trainees in Australia who commenced was 54.8%, which means approximately 45.2 of individuals who started their apprenticeship did not complete in the expected timeframe.
Jack: Wow.
Matt: a huge issue.
Jack: It's huge. Yeah. And like what, and
Brad: Yeah.
Jack: I mean, I think there's a common theme with, that we hear on the, um, grapevine that it's, it's cost related. People coming into it, it's cost related, they won. Don't wanna take that dive into it. So they'd rather, I don't know, dog food drive trucks for 45, $50 an hour?
Matt: so the di, the number one reason for employment related issues was Dissatisfaction with pay or working conditions. Them being offered a better job elsewhere, not getting along with the boss or colleagues losing their job or being made redundant and disliking the work. So I, yeah, I, I, [00:36:00] I agree that obviously there is a huge issue with the pay and working conditions, and maybe something is a tax free for apprentices and, and it shouldn't be in all apprenticeships.
By the way. I'm gonna be, I think we need to look at the apprenticeships that we're, we're short on, , and incentivize them firstly. And then, and being biased here, but it's the, the reality is like, it is a carpentry apprenticeship, like on the skill shortage list at the moment. Is it yoga? Yoga instructors like, fuck me.
Jack: You kidding.
Matt: and, and dog walkers. they're, these have been identified by the government as just shortage in work. Um, and
Jack: Nice.
Matt: wasn't on there,
Jack: Hmm. Interesting.
Matt: think that we should be looking at trades, one that have a long-term future.
So for example, around like renewables and solar and things like
Jack: Sustainable. Yeah, sustainable jobs.
Matt: I also think that these rebates should only be for residential. They should not have anything to do to do with commercial. All right? So you only get the rebate if you're in residential to bridge that gap again from [00:37:00] residential to commercial.
So now it makes it more attractive to be in the residential market because you're potentially not being taxed. And you get paid otherwise higher in the commercial industry. 'cause that's why everything's so expensive and in Victoria have a huge debt. But if we start to now look backwards on that, um, I think, I think that there's, the evidence is there that it's obviously paid an issue.
but yeah, I find that, I think that yeah, the trades that, yeah, carpentry, like even like brickwork tile in concrete, like they're kind of dying trades. Like if you're a young kid, and di no disrespect to say a brick layer or concrete like. Damn physical work, like why would you do it?
Jack: Tough
Brad: Yeah, but it's like at some point we transitioned from building stone. Buildings to, you know, brick veneer buildings, it's probably 'cause stones are heavy. And eventually people will like, screw that for a job. That's a stupid job, you know? And
Matt: is always gonna be there, and that's just like a hard trade, and brick claims get paid really well by the way, but like it's a very hard trade to tell someone to go into.
Brad: they, they [00:38:00] do now bricklayers get paid really well now 'cause there's not many good bricklayers. It's like tuck pointers or, you know. Some of those other like dying specialist trades that get paid really well, but I'm sure it's incredibly hard for those people to find apprentices and, and pass their skills down the line.
Like a stone mason that I was working with a bit, he packed it in because he just couldn't find anyone. Obviously you can't do it yourself, you know, or by yourself. 'cause it's incredibly, you know, labor intensive and, and hard, heavy work. He just couldn't find anyone. He is like, oh. I can't keep doing it, But it's same like, okay, Jack, how much easier was it to do the two act house as a framer than conventionally framing?
Jack: When I did the, uh, we, we went to the factory, , out at Carbon Light. And, um, you know, they have incredible hoists. They have tables that square [00:39:00] all the walls for you. Um, lots of mechanical, , you know, lifting devices. Um, so much easier. Um, if we were to do that on site, like that's the idea of prefabrication.
It's got, it's a lot more controlled environment. , And then we had a crane to drop everything in. Like people were not really lifting much. , Pretty
much
Brad: Yeah,
Jack: with a rattle gun. So, um, yeah, for sure. Completely agree with you.
Brad: so in Switzerland they've had a huge shift towards penalized, , mass timber construction, all that sort of stuff. And they've found that it's increasing the longevity of a carpenter's career because they're not doing as physical a work. They're still doing it, but now they're using technology. To make their lives easier.
And perhaps if young people were coming into the trades and your body's not being punished, like you gotta remember these kids have come outta school where they've sat down for most of the day, maybe run around, kick the footy at lunchtime, to having to be on their feet, working physically for eight hours a day if you would, [00:40:00] using things that made your life a little bit easier, it might be a bit more attractive and people might stick it out.
Jack: Yeah.
Matt: fun. Funny enough on that, like my little cousin did work experience with this, uh, late last year or early year, I can't remember. well you be maybe 15, 16 at school and was, I played footy on fi blah, blah, blah. So he actually stayed at mom and dad's house because it was the, the work was closer to him.
Okay? So he didn't have to drive all the way from Preston to a job in the ville. So mom's gone up, he got home at like four o'clock and mom's like, he's like, how's your day? And he's like, yeah, good. Mom's like, come get you when dinner's ready. So went up about six o'clock, he's out in bed, cold done, and mom just left him and he slept all the way through for the next day.
Like zonked. Like that's the reality of an apprenticeship. Like you start, like, I remember when I started like I was real fit. jeez, I spent, but the problem is that like, and apart from being an absolute shit carpenter, the reason why I had to get off the toilet is my back's cooked. I couldn't, I can't do it physically.
My back just goes instantly. , So [00:41:00] I think that there's an issue there and I was only probably 30, 28 around that when I had to actually from doctor's advice go no more. So, and I look at these old carpenters, they are like 60, 70 still on the tools who have lifted hardwood frames and had to do it all by hand with hand saws and.
If they're still going, but someone who's young, who is super fit, they kept their body in good shape. Not so much anymore, but, it, it is, it's a young person's game. And I think that's also the issue that we have is we are losing so many people out of the industry the speed and the, the what is required is just too much.
Jack: We could change that with what Switzerland's doing, what Germany's definitely doing, um, we could recognize in for sure.
Matt: think about it, you can move prefabrication, you're gonna have a huge decrease on WorkSafe uh, claims
like that would have to, at a minimum be dropped 30% from the, just if you had cranes in every site or if you [00:42:00] are like, what are we, I think it's 5.4% work cover as a, a builder from memory.
It might have gone up since last time I checked. Hey, if you, you can buy a little portable crane that's gonna cost you like 50 to a hundred grand. Like, we'll, we'll quarter that, and the government will subsidize you. Say, Hey, now we're doing this. Frank Mout up. It's, you've been taught, you lift it up and off you go. I, something that I've looked into a lots like, Hey, how do I actually get a crane to like, potentially make this easier on everyone? And I also think like the other, the other thing is, and, and I dunno how I say this, but like there's a misconception that. To, to try and get women into the industry.
Like there's a huge misconception that like women can't lift things. So how do we now bridge that gap and go, well, what if you got cranes and we've got these lifting things on site, to which it isn't the case because I was never strong. And it's just something that is like an excuse for people not to hire in the industry. , But maybe that also goes, oh, maybe it just opens more doors for people as well.
Brad: like my old boss, his body's cooked [00:43:00] and he wore it as a badge of honor that I've worked so hard, you know, my body's cactus or you know, whatever. And to some extent I was like that, you know, early on. And then, you know, a couple of years ago, busted both my wrists. I can't do anywhere near what I used to be able to do.
I can still do everything. I just don't do it the same dumb ass way that I used to do. I, I work a hell of a lot smarter now and, you know, I'll have a lot more longevity in my career now, hopefully, 'cause I'm, I'm working smarter and it's something that probably a lot of places need to adopt.
Matt: Yeah, like do, this is a weird question for you. Is that like a positive out of you breaking your arm, your arm? Like do you think you'd still be full gung-ho where it is a badge of on it? If you didn't break your arm,
Brad: Probably
Matt: do you, are you
Jack: Of course.
Matt: in hindsight, do you think like breaking your arm is actually a really good thing?
Jack: Oh.
Brad: it's, [00:44:00] it's certainly changed my perspective on a lot of things. Um, there's some stuff that I used to love that I will never, ever do again, which is pretty heartbreaking. it's hard having a kid who, you know, puts a lot of punishment on my, on my wrist. that, that, that sort of stuff, shit. But, um, you know, yeah, it was definitely an eyeopener and, and made me look at things. Yeah. Very, very differently. Differently. And now I, you know, even just getting a little bit older and a little bit wiser, you know, like I think Matt, not long ago you sent something in one of our group chats of, you know, some people working, do.
I look at some of those things and I think that ain't nothing on what, what I used to do. Like not even near it. But now I think I'm so lucky I'm not dead. I'm so lucky I don't have a spinal or neck or a back or head injury from doing dumb shit on a job site.
Matt: Hundred percent. Like that is something that I would say is the best thing that has changed that [00:45:00] this, and maybe 'cause we're, we're thinking about is. I remember like as a, as an apprentice, like you are walking on a second story on the top plates carrying trusses with nothing to protect you. Like you just walk the top plates now, like if I said to one of my apprentices, go walk the top plates.
I'd be like, what? What's that?
Jack: Hmm.
Brad: Yeah, I used to walk up the Trus webs, like straight up the top corner of Trus.
Matt: yeah, yeah, yeah. You just use 'em as a letter. Yeah. It's. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we're gonna run, we're gonna wrap this up. It is something we're gonna do a lot more often, start working through all the trades. , But also pretty much we are gonna also start a bit of a, maybe a second episode once a month where we're just gonna talk absolute, we'll call junk about just stuff in the industry.
And I wanna try to bring some of those conversations into just format like this to help those people who might not have the community.
And if you don't have that community, my biggest advice is create one. Go out. Just reach out to a number of [00:46:00] builders that you think might be young, starting or around the same point of view as you. And just be like, guys, like, or girls, let's create something. Let's just start a little group and let's start feeding and sharing information.
Because it does help. And it like, for me, it's probably saving. Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, just having that little group chat. So Jack and Brad, thank you for this afternoon, um, and super pumped to do another lease in the future.
Jack: Thank you Matt,